I thought the Opposition in government was supposed to, erm, oppose.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/12/harman-labour-not-vote-against-welfare-bill-limit-child-tax-credits?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

:wtf:

[hibsbollah]

Unless Corbyn wins its looking like more of the same austerity consensus at Westminster. Which will mean about 20-30% of the UK voting public are effectively disenfranchised.

[Hibbyradge]

Unless Corbyn wins its looking like more of the same austerity consensus at Westminster. Which will mean about 20-30% of the UK voting public are effectively disenfranchised.

It's a certainty.

And, ironically, if Corbyn does win, we'll be guaranteed a Tory win at the next election too.

Labour are goosed.

[marinello59]

. Which will mean about 20-30% of the UK voting public are effectively disenfranchised.

No, it means the majority are getting what they want. You can't say somebody is disenfranchised because they have voted for the minority position. We had a vote.

[Hibbyradge]

No, it means the majority are getting what they want. You can't say somebody is disenfranchised because they have voted for the minority position. We had a vote.

The majority?

Only 36.9% voted Tory.

[marinello59]

The majority?

Only 36.9% voted Tory.

I'm responding to the figures provided by the previous poster. I am assuming he is lumping the Labour vote in with the 'pro-austerity' parties.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm responding to the figures provided by the previous poster. I am assuming he is lumping the Labour vote in with the 'pro-austerity' parties.

Of course.

In that case, you're right, and it puts to bed the myth that Labour didn't support the Tory's austerity measures.

[hibsbollah]

No, it means the majority are getting what they want. You can't say somebody is disenfranchised because they have voted for the minority position. We had a vote.

You misunderstand. Depending on polling, somewhere between 20-30% of the UK population support policies broadly defined as 'left wing' and advocated by Corbyn (renationalising railways and post office, reintroducing top rate of tax to 50%, public works and rehousing programme to stimulate growth etc), yet no major Westminster party is there to reflect this bloc. That is disenfranchisement.

[Hibbyradge]

The point Harman makes about listening to the electorate may have some merit, but the electorate said nothing about these welfare cuts because they were not publicised by the Tories before the election. Yes, the figure of £12bn was known, but how and where the cuts would be made were kept secret.

Why were they kept secret? Because they would have been hugely unpopular! They are still hugely unpopular.

If Labour can't oppose a measure that even the Tories have to hide from us, what will they oppose?

Fox hunting?

[Stranraer]

It seems to me that this Labour opposition is the weakest yet. There is so little difference between them and the Conservatives and they are becoming more alike by the day.

UKPollingReport showed a poll had the Tories at 41% and Labour at 29% so Harman and three out of the four leadership candidates are going to continue to ignore the north of England and instead just focus on winning back votes from the rural south.

The way things are going I can see Labour being in opposition for a very long time.

[steakbake]

We're back to the days of a cosy Westminster consensus. Tories have stolen Labour's clothes and Labour think the way to get them back is a lurch to the right. The LibDems are irrelevant but you sure notice them when they're not around.

Roll on referendum 2, please.

[marinello59]

It seems to me that this Labour opposition is the weakest yet. There is so little difference between them and the Conservatives and they are becoming more alike by the day.

UKPollingReport showed a poll had the Tories at 41% and Labour at 29% so Harman and three out of the four leadership candidates are going to continue to ignore the north of England and instead just focus on winning back votes from the rural south.

The way things are going I can see Labour being in opposition for a very long time.

If you compare the manifestos of Labour and the SNP at the Gemeral Election there was very little difference when it came to economic policy. The SNP just managed to successfully brand theirs as a to-austerity. Just because the SNP brand the Labour Party as Red Tories doesn'tram it's true. The SNP are no more left wing than my Tory voting Mum. :greengrin

[marinello59]

We're back to the days of a cosy Westminster consensus. Tories have stolen Labour's clothes and Labour think the way to get them back is a lurch to the right. The LibDems are irrelevant but you sure notice them when they're not around.

Roll on referendum 2, please.

He SNP answer to everything. Have another referendum. Stuff policy, concentrate on procedure. I really wish I hadn't voted for the feeble 57.

[steakbake]

He SNP answer to everything. Have another referendum. Stuff policy, concentrate on procedure. I really wish I hadn't voted for the feeble 57.

Didn't say anything about voting SNP... but I'd definitely vote yes again.

What do you think should happen? You happy with the way things are turning out with the Tories in full control and Labour doing nothing but agreeing?

[lord bunberry]

He SNP answer to everything. Have another referendum. Stuff policy, concentrate on procedure. I really wish I hadn't voted for the feeble 57.

I think independence is the only answer now. Labour have ceased to be a credible alternative to the Tories due to their pandering to the south of England.

[RyeSloan]

I think independence is the only answer now. Labour have ceased to be a credible alternative to the Tories due to their pandering to the south of England.

What is the question?

[Colr]

Unless Corbyn wins its looking like more of the same austerity consensus at Westminster. Which will mean about 20-30% of the UK voting public are effectively disenfranchised.

But 70 - 80% enfranchised.

[Pretty Boy]

Surely if Labours logic is not to oppose the government because the 'public can't be wrong after 2 elections' they shouldn't oppose them on anything.

The Tories have a mandate for all their policies not just austerity. The role of the opposition is surely, as said in the thread title, to oppose. To question, to seek compromise, to represent the views of the huge number of people who didn't vote for the current incumbents. To simply roll over and refuse to oppose policies that are hugely unpopular amongst what used to be Labours core voter base is bizarre. Labour may need to attract voters from outwith that base to win an election but they also need to remember they need to win back others from UKIP, the SNP and those who didn't vote at all.

[Colr]

Labpur need to do more than just oppose. They need to propose an alternative programme that the public will buy into. They did that under Smith then Blair. If they don't they will continue as just a protest group which is what the left usually come across as.

[Pretty Boy]

Labpur need to do more than just oppose. They need to propose an alternative programme that the public will buy into. They did that under Smith then Blair. If they don't they will continue as just a protest group which is what the left usually come across as.

Surely proposing an alternative is still a form of opposition?

Thus far since both the referendum and the election Labour have played right into the SNPs hands in Scotland. Refusing to vote through legislation they were key in bringing before the house and now refusing to oppose bills that continue austerity.

Whilst next years Holyrood elections should be a critique of the SNPs record in power, and it's been patchy, Labour have presented an opportunity for the SNP to paint them as the 'party that broke the vow' and the 'party that backed austerity'. Shout that loud enough and the yes vote will close ranks.

I still maintain the only answer for Labour is an independent but affiliated party in Scotland. That way the party can rebuild in Scotland free from a brand that's fast becoming as toxic as the Tories in Scotland whilst the party in England can rebuild and woo the voters it needs to to be successful in mid to south England.

[marinello59]

:aok:
Didn't say anything about voting SNP... but I'd definitely vote yes again.

What do you think should happen? You happy with the way things are turning out with the Tories in full control and Labour doing nothing but agreeing?

Labour are in a state of paralysis until they elect a new leader. I expect better of them once they have. Harman has been utterly hopeless.

[steakbake]

I still maintain the only answer for Labour is an independent but affiliated party in Scotland. That way the party can rebuild in Scotland free from a brand that's fast becoming as toxic as the Tories in Scotland whilst the party in England can rebuild and woo the voters it needs to to be successful in mid to south England.

A good shout - but I can't see the Scottish party being given any kind of leeway to be separate but affiliated. I don't think even in Scotland there are labour members willing to accept having to let go if the side of the pool. As was once said, the view is that we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions.

As for a RoUK Labour Party, judging by the leadership candidates, Corbyn aside, as I say they're playing for rightwing voters. Any radical platform won't be found under labour: it'll just be a slightly different shade of blue.

In the meantime, we have an unashamedly right wing government intent on pursuing their ideology in the name of financial probity. Today's latest being Cameron being 'open' to IDS's idea that sick and unemployment pay should come via an insurance scheme...

[marinello59]

As was once said, the view is that we're not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions.



Sorry for picking on you here but any reasonable person knows that never was and never has been the view of any Scottish politician. It's an unfortunate quote but that's it. When it was read in the full context its slightly better reading although I concede not much better. To suggest it is a heartfelt view of any Scot is wrong though.

[steakbake]

Sorry for picking on you here but any reasonable person knows that never was and never has been the view of any Scottish politician. It's an unfortunate quote but that's it. When it was read in the full context its slightly better reading although I concede not much better. To suggest it is a heartfelt view of any Scot is wrong though.

It was a poor choice of words, I accept that.

Maybe then, if I say that I think Labour lack the political bravery to be a separate party in Scotland?

I don't feel picked on - it's fair comment.

[lucky]

Harman is looking to get Labour to abstain but 3 of the 4 leader candidates don't support this. HH and her kind are the reason the Tories won. It's shameful that a Labour politician to support Tory austerity

[marinello59]

It was a poor choice of words, I accept that.

Maybe then, if I say that I think Labour lack the political bravery to be a separate party in Scotland?

I don't feel picked on - it's fair comment.

I'd totally agree with the bravery comment.

[hibsbollah]

But 70 - 80% enfranchised.

:confused: Peculiar post.

I'm assuming that you are confused as to the meaning of 'disenfranchised' (to have no one you can give your vote to). Universal franchise is the basis of representative democracy. You don't seriously think 70-80% enfranchisement is acceptable?

[lord bunberry]

What is the question?

How do we get an alternative to the Tories.

[Colr]

:confused: Peculiar post.

I'm assuming that you are confused as to the meaning of 'disenfranchised' (to have no one you can give your vote to). Universal franchise is the basis of representative democracy. You don't seriously think 70-80% enfranchisement is acceptable?

But there isn't nobody. There are quite a few left wing parties. Like this lot:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33478400

Tommy Sheridan's party and a few others. What there isn't is a major party but a major party would not get into government if is played to just 20-30% of the population.

[Colr]

HH and her kind are the reason the Tories won.


A big part of it but not for the reasons you implied.

[hibsbollah]

But there isn't nobody. There are quite a few left wing parties. Like this lot:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33478400

Tommy Sheridan's party and a few others. What there isn't is a major party but a major party would not get into government if is played to just 20-30% of the population.

:faf: Sheridan? Are you serious? That's not a party with any serious prospect of gaining power. And your second point rings empty when you consider what proportion of the population the current Govt 'plays to'. Probably the top 5%.

[hibsbollah]

I just caught Mhairi Blacks maiden speech at Westminster a moment ago, absolutely brilliant performance.

[RyeSloan]

:faf: Sheridan? Are you serious? That's not a party with any serious prospect of gaining power. And your second point rings empty when you consider what proportion of the population the current Govt 'plays to'. Probably the top 5%.

Hmm a majority government with a 37% share of the vote (which was the largest) plays only to the top 5%?

Add in labour and Lib Dem and you have 75% share of the vote...then consider the over representation of SNP compared to their vote share and it's hard to see the vast swathes of people that are being disenfranchised here.

[ronaldo7]

I just caught Mhairi Blacks maiden speech at Westminster a moment ago, absolutely brilliant performance.

:agree: Martyn Day done well too:aok:

See what happens when you set a fox running round WM:wink:

[hibsbollah]

Hmm a majority government with a 37% share of the vote (which was the largest) plays only to the top 5%?

Add in labour and Lib Dem and you have 75% share of the vote...then consider the over representation of SNP compared to their vote share and it's hard to see the vast swathes of people that are being disenfranchised here.

i think you're missing the point, with respect. People can only vote for the parties they are presented with. Cameron, Clegg and whatever emerges from the ashes of New Labour lead the three established parties, and yes, they might command 75% of the vote together, but the closer they get ideologically the harder it is to argue that the British party system as it stands represents the broad voice of the people. There is no credible party of the UK Left anymore, in Scotland the SNP took this role on and swept the board. As to your last sentence, I take the opposite lesson that you did; SNPs success is an active demonstration of how large swathes of England are disenfranchised.

Some relevant bits of polling;

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/07/09/fox-hunt-region/

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/11/04/nationalise-energy-and-rail-companies-say-public/

http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2014/sep/05/social-housing-vote-winner-2015-election

[Pretty Boy]

I just caught Mhairi Blacks maiden speech at Westminster a moment ago, absolutely brilliant performance.

Just watched it just now. Superb performance.

Shame there was so few Labour MPs there to hear it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I just caught Mhairi Blacks maiden speech at Westminster a moment ago, absolutely brilliant performance.

:agree: She's got huge potential but she's young and will make mistakes. I just hope none of them are grave enough to give the Westminster snakes the chance to destroy her.

[steakbake]

:agree: She's got huge potential but she's young and will make mistakes. I just hope none of them are grave enough to give the Westminster snakes the chance to destroy her.

Or the media, who will cut her very little slack especially the middle class Scottish media. She is the antithesis of their world view and they'll be waiting for her to slip up.

Great speech though.

[RyeSloan]

i think you're missing the point, with respect. People can only vote for the parties they are presented with. Cameron, Clegg and whatever emerges from the ashes of New Labour lead the three established parties, and yes, they might command 75% of the vote together, but the closer they get ideologically the harder it is to argue that the British party system as it stands represents the broad voice of the people. There is no credible party of the UK Left anymore, in Scotland the SNP took this role on and swept the board. As to your last sentence, I take the opposite lesson that you did; SNPs success is an active demonstration of how large swathes of England are disenfranchised. Some relevant bits of polling; https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/07/09/fox-hunt-region/ https://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/11/04/nationalise-energy-and-rail-companies-say-public/ http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2014/sep/05/social-housing-vote-winner-2015-election

So you are suggesting people vote for parties that don't represent them therefore they are disenfranchised? Hmm I'm not so sure.

No party will ever represent someone's views in entirety and I understand your point about no party representing the UK true left but you have to ask why that is. I would suggest it's because there simply isn't a particularly large voting block to represent there and that the mainstream vote or popular vote is not positioned on the left therefore the main parties are not either.

Sure that leaves some without a major party to represent them but does that really count as large swathes? To be fair though if people voted for the SNP as a true left party then I would agree they are indeed disenfranchised ;-)

As for the polling...it's no surprise most people want a few items renationalised. It's a shame that such polling doesn't ask why though! I'm still fascinated by the fascination around the post office being renationalised, is there any credible argument to support that?

[Moulin Yarns]

I just caught Mhairi Blacks maiden speech at Westminster a moment ago, absolutely brilliant performance.

You weren't watching the BBC then :greengrin

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11738008_866265196784822_5691902787282493929_n.png ?oh=15dbe7a0d18937f6f6c6e47d891197f6&oe=561AF365

[snooky]

You weren't watching the BBC then :greengrin

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11738008_866265196784822_5691902787282493929_n.png ?oh=15dbe7a0d18937f6f6c6e47d891197f6&oe=561AF365

The pie chart sums up the BBC's political position 100%.
A manipulated Westminster mouthpiece.
How sad ... and insulting.

[marinello59]

The pie chart sums up the BBC's political position 100%.
A manipulated Westminster mouthpiece.
How sad ... and insulting.

It's more a reflection of the need of some SNP supporters on social media to crave nothing more than universal praise whilst looking for more reasons to be outraged than an accurate reflection of the report. It is quite funny though.
Most maiden speeches are not reported all but probably due to her youth Black's was and it has received almost universal praise. The footage of the deputy speaker only served to make the procedures at Westminster look ridiculous. Do you really think Jackie Bird revelled in the rebuke? It looked to me like she found it amusing which it was.

[Beefster]

It's more a reflection of the need of some SNP supporters on social media to crave nothing more than universal praise whilst looking for more reasons to be outraged than an accurate reflection of the report. It is quite funny though.
Most maiden speeches are not reported all but probably due to her youth Black's was and it has received almost universal praise. The footage of the deputy speaker only served to make the procedures at Westminster look ridiculous. Do you really think Jackie Bird revelled in the rebuke? It looked to me like she found it amusing which it was.

SNP supporters whinging about media bias generally washes over me now but, as you often do, you've pretty well summarised my thoughts better than I can.

Some folk need to realise that participation in politics isn't just supposed to be sitting in your bedroom coming up with 'witty' graphics/memes or timing BBC news reports.

[Hibbyradge]

It's more a reflection of the need of some SNP supporters on social media to crave nothing more than universal praise whilst looking for more reasons to be outraged than an accurate reflection of the report. It is quite funny though.
Most maiden speeches are not reported all but probably due to her youth Black's was and it has received almost universal praise. The footage of the deputy speaker only served to make the procedures at Westminster look ridiculous. Do you really think Jackie Bird revelled in the rebuke? It looked to me like she found it amusing which it was.

I didn't see the BBCs coverage, buy I assumed the pie chart was a joke.

I've posted it on my FB anyway. I'm sure it will enrage a few folk for the reasons you cite.

Top speech though.

[The Harp Awakes]

SNP supporters whinging about media bias generally washes over me now but, as you often do, you've pretty well summarised my thoughts better than I can.

Some folk need to realise that participation in politics isn't just supposed to be sitting in your bedroom coming up with 'witty' graphics/memes or timing BBC news reports.

If you support of a political party/political outcome which benefits from media bias, then you may be oblivious to that bias or perhaps be quite happy to dig your head in the sand and ignore it.

During the BBC's coverage of the referendum campaign I wrote formal complaints to the BBC on 4 separate occasions. It was a waste of time of course as each time a got the same bog standard reply. I had better things to do with my time but to me the BBC's coverage was clearly biased in favour of the No campaign and it was a matter of principle.

So it may be whinging to you but to other people a matter of principle. I think it would be quite revealing to request from the BBC under FOI, their statistics on level of complaints during the referendum campaign. Naturally you would expect the overall volume of complaints to increase as passions were running high on both sides. But would it be a 50/50 split from Yes and No supporters? Might just write to them on that:rolleyes:

[hibsbollah]

So you are suggesting people vote for parties that don't represent them therefore they are disenfranchised? Hmm I'm not so sure.

No party will ever represent someone's views in entirety and I understand your point about no party representing the UK true left but you have to ask why that is. I would suggest it's because there simply isn't a particularly large voting block to represent there and that the mainstream vote or popular vote is not positioned on the left therefore the main parties are not either.

Sure that leaves some without a major party to represent them but does that really count as large swathes? To be fair though if people voted for the SNP as a true left party then I would agree they are indeed disenfranchised ;-)

As for the polling...it's no surprise most people want a few items renationalised. It's a shame that such polling doesn't ask why though! I'm still fascinated by the fascination around the post office being renationalised, is there any credible argument to support that?

Well yes I think that's exactly what happens. they vote for parties while holding their nose, (often like me, because they think it's a democratic obligation to use your vote) or they just don't vote at all. Maybe I'm just immensely jealous of you centre-right types who have a vast supermarket of identical bland austerity parties competing for your vote:wink: while I shop in the political equivalent of the Stalinist Russia breadline.

[Beefster]

If you support of a political party/political outcome which benefits from media bias, then you may be oblivious to that bias or perhaps be quite happy to dig your head in the sand and ignore it.

During the BBC's coverage of the referendum campaign I wrote formal complaints to the BBC on 4 separate occasions. It was a waste of time of course as each time a got the same bog standard reply. I had better things to do with my time but to me the BBC's coverage was clearly biased in favour of the No campaign and it was a matter of principle.

So it may be whinging to you but to other people a matter of principle. I think it would be quite revealing to request from the BBC under FOI, their statistics on level of complaints during the referendum campaign. Naturally you would expect the overall volume of complaints to increase as passions were running high on both sides. But would it be a 50/50 split from Yes and No supporters? Might just write to them on that:rolleyes:

Rather than [by your own admission] wasting your time, would you not have been better doing something positive to promote the case for independence?

Given how vociferous some independence supporters were/are and the volume of Facebook/Twitter/etc 'stats' designed to whip them all up into a frenzy (see above), I'm not sure why you'd expect the BBC complaints to be 50/50. A small number of folk can make an awful lot of noise.

[RyeSloan]

Well yes I think that's exactly what happens. they vote for parties while holding their nose, (often like me, because they think it's a democratic obligation to use your vote) or they just don't vote at all. Maybe I'm just immensely jealous of you centre-right types who have a vast supermarket of identical bland austerity parties competing for your vote:wink: while I shop in the political equivalent of the Stalinist Russia breadline.

Hee Hee enjoy your black bread then :-)

Ach to be honest you might be right...I honestly don't care for any of them so maybe there is a lot of least worst option voting going on.

[Hibrandenburg]

Or the media, who will cut her very little slack especially the middle class Scottish media. She is the antithesis of their world view and they'll be waiting for her to slip up.

Great speech though.

The media are just one of the tools used by the snakes in Westminster.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't see the BBCs coverage, buy I assumed the pie chart was a joke.

I've posted it on my FB anyway. I'm sure it will enrage a few folk for the reasons you cite.

Top speech though.

Not a joke, unfortunately.

http://www.thenational.scot/comment/lesley-riddoch-bbc-scotlands-coverage-of-mhairi-blacks-speech-was-embarrassing.5236

[Peevemor]

Not a joke, unfortunately.

http://www.thenational.scot/comment/lesley-riddoch-bbc-scotlands-coverage-of-mhairi-blacks-speech-was-embarrassing.5236

Astonishing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Rt4tVxHkA

[lucky]

:agree: Martyn Day done well too:aok:

See what happens when you set a fox running round WM:wink:

Martyn Day was a joke as a councillor in West Lothian even the Nats know he's hapless. He will contribute nothing at Westminster. But Mhari Black clearly will

[Moulin Yarns]

Astonishing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Rt4tVxHkA

For anybody that missed it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZAmhB55_-k

[Betty Boop]

Jeremy Corbyn out in front in the leadership race.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-race-jeremy-corbyn-takes-shock-lead-in-battle-to-succeed-ed-miliband-10391640.html

[R'Albin]

Jeremy Corbyn out in front in the leadership race.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-race-jeremy-corbyn-takes-shock-lead-in-battle-to-succeed-ed-miliband-10391640.html

Aside from the fact he's my favourite candidate by a distance, I also got money on him at 14/1 and he's been slashed to 10/3 now :aok:

[Future17]

Jeremy Corbyn out in front in the leadership race.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-race-jeremy-corbyn-takes-shock-lead-in-battle-to-succeed-ed-miliband-10391640.html

From what I understand, the "polling" referred to is liable to be even less accurate than the UKPGE polling. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

It's more a reflection of the need of some SNP supporters on social media to crave nothing more than universal praise whilst looking for more reasons to be outraged than an accurate reflection of the report. It is quite funny though.
Most maiden speeches are not reported all but probably due to her youth Black's was and it has received almost universal praise. The footage of the deputy speaker only served to make the procedures at Westminster look ridiculous. Do you really think Jackie Bird revelled in the rebuke? It looked to me like she found it amusing which it was.

Is it really difficult to ask that our Public service broadcaster in Scotland actually covers the news and reports it fully. I'm not asking for the whole speech to be broadcast, as the time wouldn't allow, but a small excerpt of her many valid points would have been nice.

The whole bloody world seems to have done a job on Mhairi Black's maiden speech.

The coverage from the beeb on the evening was amateurish, but it seems some folk are happy that they dumb down our news.

[ronaldo7]

Jeremy Corbyn out in front in the leadership race.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-race-jeremy-corbyn-takes-shock-lead-in-battle-to-succeed-ed-miliband-10391640.html

Labour leader candidates splashing the cash apart from Corbyn.

http://t.co/gJhDjo6DzB

[Jonnyboy]

For anybody that missed it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZAmhB55_-k

What a fabulous and very mature speech :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it really difficult to ask that our Public service broadcaster in Scotland actually covers the news and reports it fully. I'm not asking for the whole speech to be broadcast, as the time wouldn't allow, but a small excerpt of her many valid points woI uld have been nice.

The whole bloody world seems to have done a job on Mhairi Black's maiden speech.

The coverage from the beeb on the evening was amateurish, but it seems some folk are happy that they dumb down our news.

Woooah! How dare you suggest that our media has to dumb down the news to make it consumable for our highly intelligent and analytic electorate! The Scottish people are perfectly capable of making their minds up based on the true facts presented and can't be swayed by transparent propaganda. :wink:

[marinello59]

Is it really difficult to ask that our Public service broadcaster in Scotland actually covers the news and reports it fully. I'm not asking for the whole speech to be broadcast, as the time wouldn't allow, but a small excerpt of her many valid points would have been nice.

The whole bloody world seems to have done a job on Mhairi Black's maiden speech.

The coverage from the beeb on the evening was amateurish, but it seems some folk are happy that they dumb down our news.

The fact that the speech was reported at all and in a positive manner despite the lunatic spin some want to put on the reporting is remarkable. Do you remember any maiden speeches in the past being reported on in detail. I don't. It seems that too any SNP supporters want the media to join them in congratulating themselves in how bloody brilliant they are. Depressing to say the least.

[Peevemor]

The fact that the speech was reported at all and in a positive manner despite the lunatic spin some want to put on the reporting is remarkable. Do you remember any maiden speeches in the past being reported on in detail. I don't. It seems that too any SNP supporters want the media to join them in congratulating themselves in how bloody brilliant they are. Depressing to say the least.

I disagree. The speech was an historic event given Mhairi Black's age and merited being reported for no other reason. The BBC chose instead to show the nat MPs getting their wrists slapped - now that is depressing.

[marinello59]

I disagree. The speech was an historic event given Mhairi Black's age and merited being reported for no other reason. The BBC chose instead to show the nat MPs getting their wrists slapped - now that is depressing.

It was as historic as every other maiden speech. And it was more widely reported than the majority. Of course it was a speech from a PARTY MEMBER and therefore more utterly brilliant than most. :greengrin

[steakbake]

OT, but maybe On Topic? Is it the case that some in the Labour Party Scottish Branch are flirting with coming out for independence? Or at least having a less binary position on the matter?

[Beefster]

OT, but maybe On Topic? Is it the case that some in the Labour Party Scottish Branch are flirting with coming out for independence? Or at least having a less binary position on the matter?

It's not beyond the realms of possibility. Hypocrisy has never been seen as a big obstacle when votes are needed.

[Hibbyradge]

It was as historic as every other maiden speech. And it was more widely reported than the majority. Of course it was a speech from a PARTY MEMBER and therefore more utterly brilliant than most. :greengrin

Black's speech was one of the most discussed topics on the internet on Tuesday. To use internet parlance, it was Trending.

The BBC is happy to join in the fun on all sorts of trending topics, but it didn't seem to want to on this occasion.

From Breakfast to close, what a joyous time they had with important subjects like THE DRESS and a weasel on a woodpecker's back., but somehow they turned Black's universally acclaimed speech into a negative.

Maybe SNP members are suffering from a touch of confirmation bias, but the BBC is not blameless. If they had been fair during the referendum, people wouldn't be so sensitive now.

Remember this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_XhTALHQzI

[RyeSloan]

A lot of carfuffle over a speech, which while being well delivered, mature and balanced for such a young MP was hardly revolutionary or visionary.

I didn't see the BBC report but I've seen many news reports on speeches that were many times more significant yet normally these reports contain very little of the actual speech compared to commentary and comment from the reporter so not surprised this was treated in the same way.

[Hibbyradge]

A lot of carfuffle over a speech, which while being well delivered, mature and balanced for such a young MP was hardly revolutionary or visionary.


Indeed. Yet it was better than anything the Labour Party has delivered in parliament for ions.

And that,s the point.

Carfuffle sounds like a cross between fudge and truffle that you eat in a vehicle. :greengrin

Kerfuffle on the other hand...:wink:

[johnbc70]

Black's speech was one of the most discussed topics on the internet on Tuesday. To use internet parlance, it was Trending.

The BBC is happy to join in the fun on all sorts of trending topics, but it didn't seem to want to on this occasion.

From Breakfast to close, what a joyous time they had with important subjects like THE DRESS and a weasel on a woodpecker's back., but somehow they turned Black's universally acclaimed speech into a negative.

Maybe SNP members are suffering from a touch of confirmation bias, but the BBC is not blameless. If they had been fair during the referendum, people wouldn't be so sensitive now.

Remember this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_XhTALHQzI

Why is there a link to 'Maiden Mhari' on the BBC Scotland homepage if they want to hide her away. As many have said I have never seen so much media coverage given to a maiden speech before.

[Hibbyradge]

Why is there a link to 'Maiden Mhari' on the BBC Scotland homepage if they want to hide her away. As many have said I have never seen so much media coverage given to a maiden speech before.

It is the TV coverage which has irked people.

So much coverage has been given to her maiden speech because so much was made about her youth and her ability or not, to cope with the pressures of speaking in the House.

The fact that she spoke so well, at such a young age, is of interest.

[Moulin Yarns]

Indeed. Yet it was better than anything the Labour Party has delivered in parliament for ions.

And that,s the point.

Carfuffle sounds like a cross between fudge and truffle that you eat in a vehicle. :greengrin

Kerfuffle on the other hand...:wink:

That is because Labour don't have any bright sparks, It has however been eons since Labour said anything important :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

That is because Labour don't have any bright sparks, It has however been eons since Labour said anything important :wink:

Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhh!

Hoist by my own petard! :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhh! Hoist by my own petard! :greengrin

Double hoisted...

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/carfuffle

carfuffle (kəˈfʌfəl )

Definitions
noun

(informal, mainly British) a variant spelling of kerfuffle
Word Origin
C20: of unknown origin
kerfuffle or carfuffle or kurfuffle (kəˈfʌfəl )

[Hibbyradge]

Double hoisted...

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/carfuffle

carfuffle (kəˈfʌfəl )

Definitions
noun

(informal, mainly British) a variant spelling of kerfuffle
Word Origin
C20: of unknown origin
kerfuffle or carfuffle or kurfuffle (kəˈfʌfəl )

Oh no. It couldn't get any worse!

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr01/29/15/anigif_enhanced-buzz-12487-1383075555-2.gif

[snooky]

Oh no. It couldn't get any worse!

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2013-10/enhanced/webdr01/29/15/anigif_enhanced-buzz-12487-1383075555-2.gif

S'not that bad. :wink:

[degenerated]

It is the TV coverage which has irked people.

So much coverage has been given to her maiden speech because so much was made about her youth and her ability or not, to cope with the pressures of speaking in the House.

The fact that she spoke so well, at such a young age, is of interest.
Here's the BBC Scotland report on it
https://youtu.be/r2Rt4tVxHkA

[liamh2202]

As you guys know I'm as far from a SNP man as you could probably get but this clapping thing is winding me up. . there is no writing rule forbidding it. It is a tradition under an outdated unwritten constitution. And tbh stinks of double standards. See here when a speach was made backing the speaker.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32913113

Video half way down

[ronaldo7]

The fact that the speech was reported at all and in a positive manner despite the lunatic spin some want to put on the reporting is remarkable. Do you remember any maiden speeches in the past being reported on in detail. I don't. It seems that too any SNP supporters want the media to join them in congratulating themselves in how bloody brilliant they are. Depressing to say the least.

She's the youngest MP to make a maiden speech since the 1660's, so I would expect as she's a Scot, that it would be reported long and often in our National Broadcasters bulletins. That they decided to show the deputy speaker rebuking the applause says it all. Many other outlets gave a good coverage of the Historic speech.

This has nothing to do with the SNP and all to do with the Historic event which occurred the other day.

I remember when Charles Kennedy was elected in 1983, at the age of 23, and becoming the baby of the house. The media were full of it.

It was a great speech for one so young.

[marinello59]

She's the youngest MP to make a maiden speech since the 1660's, so I would expect as she's a Scot, that it would be reported long and often in our National Broadcasters bulletins. That they decided to show the deputy speaker rebuking the applause says it all. Many other outlets gave a good coverage of the Historic speech.

This has nothing to do with the SNP and all to do with the Historic event which occurred the other day.

I remember when Charles Kennedy was elected in 1983, at the age of 23, and becoming the baby of the house. The media were full of it.

It was a great speech for one so young.

With so many maiden speeches being made hers was more newsworthy because of her age. It makes it worth remarking on but I'm not so sure it was an historic event. Would it be just as historic of the speech was being made by the oldest person to make a maiden speech since the 1660s? I don't think it becomes any better or worthy of reporting in full simply because of her age. It was an excellent speech but most maiden speeches are given the nature of them. It's one of the few chances an MP will get to make a well rehearsed uninterrupted contribution as long as they stick to the traditional formula which the new SNP members are.
It was certainly a very well delivered speech and pushed all the right buttons for those of us who agree with her views but historic? Very few maiden speeches are but perhaps the one given by the previous holder of the youngest woman voted to Parliament could be described as such. Bernadette Devlin's speech is truly historic but it certainly had nothing to do with her youth and everything to do with the content and political situation at the time.
As for comparisons to the coverage given to Charles Kennedy as the baby of the house, I don't see that she has had any less comment than he received at the time but maybe your memory is better than mine. Perhaps though the MP herself would prefer to be judged simply as a good MP rather than as a good MP for one so young.

[lord bunberry]

With so many maiden speeches being made hers was more newsworthy because of her age. It makes it worth remarking on but I'm not so sure it was an historic event. Would it be just as historic of the speech was being made by the oldest person to make a maiden speech since the 1660s? I don't think it becomes any better or worthy of reporting in full simply because of her age. It was an excellent speech but most maiden speeches are given the nature of them. It's one of the few chances an MP will get to make a well rehearsed uninterrupted contribution as long as they stick to the traditional formula which the new SNP members are.
It was certainly a very well delivered speech and pushed all the right buttons for those of us who agree with her views but historic? Very few maiden speeches are but perhaps the one given by the previous holder of the youngest woman voted to Parliament could be described as such. Bernadette Devlin's speech is truly historic but it certainly had nothing to do with her youth and everything to do with the content and political situation at the time.
As for comparisons to the coverage given to Charles Kennedy as the baby of the house, I don't see that she has had any less comment than he received at the time but maybe your memory is better than mine. Perhaps though the MP herself would prefer to be judged simply as a good MP rather than as a good MP for one so young.
Everytime a story appears about the SNP you say the same thing about SNP voters looking to be outraged. You may have a point sometimes, but in this instance I think you're wrong. The BBC coverage of the speech was poor.

[Moulin Yarns]

Everytime a story appears about the SNP you say the same thing about SNP voters looking to be outraged. You may have a point sometimes, but in this instance I think you're wrong. The BBC coverage of the speech was poor.

Can I point out I was as outraged, as you will notice from my posts above, but I am a member of another political party. So it is not just SNP supporters that found this to be BBC bias.

On the subject of BBC bias...

http://newsnet.scot/2015/07/the-weird-not-so-wonderful-news-agenda-of-radio-scotland/

[marinello59]

Everytime a story appears about the SNP you say the same thing about SNP voters looking to be outraged. You may have a point sometimes, but in this instance I think you're wrong. The BBC coverage of the speech was poor.

I havent mentioned outrage or SNP voters in the post you have just quoted. I was answering the points ronaldo made.

[RyeSloan]

Can I point out I was as outraged, as you will notice from my posts above, but I am a member of another political party. So it is not just SNP supporters that found this to be BBC bias. On the subject of BBC bias... http://newsnet.scot/2015/07/the-weird-not-so-wonderful-news-agenda-of-radio-scotland/

Correct me if I am wrong but the Scotland bill was a bill that included amendments on the UK Parliament giving additional powers to the Scottish government. If that was the case why would there be such outrage at non Scottish MPs voting on the amendments?

The fox hunting bill was clearly and only an English and Wales matter yet the SNP was perfectly happy to u turn on their own stated position for purely political 'gain'...It was their first opportunity to flex their muscles and just couldn't resist. Fair enough I suppose but not a particularly elegant move or one that supports the rather 'holier than thou' narrative the SNP appear to have been trying to foster in Westminster.

[lord bunberry]

Can I point out I was as outraged, as you will notice from my posts above, but I am a member of another political party. So it is not just SNP supporters that found this to be BBC bias.

On the subject of BBC bias...

http://newsnet.scot/2015/07/the-weird-not-so-wonderful-news-agenda-of-radio-scotland/
Point taken :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

I havent mentioned outrage or SNP voters in the post you have just quoted. I was answering the points ronaldo made.
Yes but you have continually suggested since the referendum that the SNP(and greens) voters have been moaning about BBC and other media bias. I think(especially on social media) some people take things way to far at times, but I think in this instance the BBC got it wrong.

[Future17]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Scotland bill was a bill that included amendments on the UK Parliament giving additional powers to the Scottish government. If that was the case why would there be such outrage at non Scottish MPs voting on the amendments?

The fox hunting bill was clearly and only an English and Wales matter yet the SNP was perfectly happy to u turn on their own stated position for purely political 'gain'...It was their first opportunity to flex their muscles and just couldn't resist. Fair enough I suppose but not a particularly elegant move or one that supports the rather 'holier than thou' narrative the SNP appear to have been trying to foster in Westminster.

I would think most things done in the House of Commons are for political gain - is that not the reason we send representatives there in the first place?

My understanding of the SNP's fox-hunting position was that they felt there were a number of reasons to vote against the proposed relaxation of the current legislation. One of those reasons was that they are attempting to introduce legislation in the Scottish Parliament which tightens controls on fox-hunting in this country and they felt that a relaxation in England and Wales may compromise those efforts.

I don't think the SNP have made any secret that they had additional motivations for becoming involved in this debate in WM and I don't think we elect politicians to be "elegant" in their actions. It's not for me to defend SNP's every action as I am not a party member of anything like that, but is it not entirely appropriate that the SNP represents the interests of those who elected them in May?

[Moulin Yarns]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Scotland bill was a bill that included amendments on the UK Parliament giving additional powers to the Scottish government. If that was the case why would there be such outrage at non Scottish MPs voting on the amendments?

The fox hunting bill was clearly and only an English and Wales matter yet the SNP was perfectly happy to u turn on their own stated position for purely political 'gain'...It was their first opportunity to flex their muscles and just couldn't resist. Fair enough I suppose but not a particularly elegant move or one that supports the rather 'holier than thou' narrative the SNP appear to have been trying to foster in Westminster.

The Scotland Bill was supposed to be an enactment of the hastily produced Smith Commission. It falls far short.

http://www.scottishlegal.com/2015/03/23/westminster-committee-raises-concerns-draft-scotland-bill-does-not-meet-smith-brief-and-falls-short-of-credibility/ (http://www.scottishlegal.com/2015/03/23/westminster-committee-raises-concerns-draft-scotland-bill-does-not-meet-smith-brief-and-falls-short-of-credibility/)


The draft clauses of a new Scotland bill have been criticised by a House of Commons committee as not meeting the Smith Commission brief, lacking credibility and being a “bit of a guddle”.The political and constitutional reform committee said the draft clauses for legislation intended to transfer additional powers from the UK parliament to Holyrood fell well short of being credible.
The committee also raised concerns the draft clauses did not even meet the Smith Commission brief and noted a “legally vacuous” and “potentially contradictory” commitment to make the Scottish parliament a permanent institution in law given as this would contradict the principle that the UK parliament is the UK’s supreme legislative authority.

That every attempt to amend the Scotland Bill to bring it back in line with Smith was rejected by English MPs is the reason the SNP have moved to highlight the hypocrisy by makiing it known they would vote on the English and Welsh Fox Hunting Bill. It brought the situation into the news, so worked.

I've made it clear I am not an SNP voter, but I support their actions where it clearly shows Westminster for what it is, an imbalanced form of government. That Labour have chosen to not support SNP motions one week, to then bring the same motion the following week was nicely highlighted in Mhairi Black's maiden speech when she called on the opposition to join together in opposing the Government,unfortunately all Labour want to do is make it difficult for the SNP.

[RyeSloan]

The Scotland Bill was supposed to be an enactment of the hastily produced Smith Commission. It falls far short. http://www.scottishlegal.com/2015/03/23/westminster-committee-raises-concerns-draft-scotland-bill-does-not-meet-smith-brief-and-falls-short-of-credibility/ (http://www.scottishlegal.com/2015/03/23/westminster-committee-raises-concerns-draft-scotland-bill-does-not-meet-smith-brief-and-falls-short-of-credibility/) That every attempt to amend the Scotland Bill to bring it back in line with Smith was rejected by English MPs is the reason the SNP have moved to highlight the hypocrisy by makiing it known they would vote on the English and Welsh Fox Hunting Bill. It brought the situation into the news, so worked. I've made it clear I am not an SNP voter, but I support their actions where it clearly shows Westminster for what it is, an imbalanced form of government. That Labour have chosen to not support SNP motions one week, to then bring the same motion the following week was nicely highlighted in Mhairi Black's maiden speech when she called on the opposition to join together in opposing the Government,unfortunately all Labour want to do is make it difficult for the SNP.

I don't disagree but the Scotland bill was indeed a transfer of powers to the Scottish one therefore
it was perfectly acceptable for all UK MP's to vote on it.

And so what if Labour want to make it difficult for the SNP, the SNP were happy to make it difficult for the Tories so the tactics were the same. We all know in reality in Scotland the SNP are Labours opposition and vice versa so this faux hand of friendship being offered by the SNP to Labour down south should have no one fooled

It's a bit naïve to think that Labour are going to side with the SNP just because, as you said it is politics and considering the SNP just spanked Labour in what they have long considered their own back yard I'm surprised anyone is surprised at Labours reticence to jump on the SNP bandwagon.

I think my point is they are all at it and it is all with political gain in mind hence I'm not getting the outrage and anger every time something does not go the SNP's way. They are astute at making themselves out to be the victims to the establishment and claiming the moral high ground, I'm just not swallowing any of it!

[Just Alf]

I don't disagree but the Scotland bill was indeed a transfer of powers to the Scottish one therefore
it was perfectly acceptable for all UK MP's to vote on it.

And so what if Labour want to make it difficult for the SNP, the SNP were happy to make it difficult for the Tories so the tactics were the same. We all know in reality in Scotland the SNP are Labours opposition and vice versa so this faux hand of friendship being offered by the SNP to Labour down south should have no one fooled

It's a bit naïve to think that Labour are going to side with the SNP just because, as you said it is politics and considering the SNP just spanked Labour in what they have long considered their own back yard I'm surprised anyone is surprised at Labours reticence to jump on the SNP bandwagon.

I think my point is they are all at it and it is all with political gain in mind hence I'm not getting the outrage and anger every time something does not go the SNP's way. They are astute at making themselves out to be the victims to the establishment and claiming the moral high ground, I'm just not swallowing any of it!

I get what you're saying, but is the issue between SNP and Lanour at Westmister more about the fact that Labour have abstained from votes on stuff they actually agreed with just because it had not been put forward by them? at least that's how I'm understanding it :-/

[marinello59]

Yes but you have continually suggested since the referendum that the SNP(and greens) voters have been moaning about BBC and other media bias. I think(especially on social media) some people take things way to far at times, but I think in this instance the BBC got it wrong.

I can be like a stuck record sometimes.:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

I can be like a stuck record sometimes.:greengrin
It's no a bad tune though bud :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

I can be like a stuck record sometimes.:greengrin

And we can see it:agree::greengrin

But you're allowed.

[ronaldo7]

It's more a reflection of the need of some SNP supporters on social media to crave nothing more than universal praise whilst looking for more reasons to be outraged than an accurate reflection of the report. It is quite funny though.
Most maiden speeches are not reported all but probably due to her youth Black's was and it has received almost universal praise. The footage of the deputy speaker only served to make the procedures at Westminster look ridiculous. Do you really think Jackie Bird revelled in the rebuke? It looked to me like she found it amusing which it was.


Everytime a story appears about the SNP you say the same thing about SNP voters looking to be outraged. You may have a point sometimes, but in this instance I think you're wrong. The BBC coverage of the speech was poor.


I havent mentioned outrage or SNP voters in the post you have just quoted. I was answering the points ronaldo made.

:wtf::rotflmao:

[marinello59]

:wtf::rotflmao:

Read the post LB quoted. Then read my reply properly.
Then maybe you could read my stuck record comment again. You even commented on that one.

[ronaldo7]

Read the post LB quoted. Then read my reply properly.
Then maybe you could read my stuck record comment again. You even commented on that one.

I'd rather take a look at the complete thread rather than individual posts if that's ok with you.:greengrin:aok:

[marinello59]

I'd rather take a look at the complete thread rather than individual posts if that's ok with you.:greengrin:aok:

Fair enough. I took the time to respond to your post but you can ignore my reply. I also put my hands up to going on about SNP supporters being outraged with my stuck record comments. Thanks for your fair and balanced response. There's nothing like a good debate.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

Fair enough. I took the time to respond to your post but you can ignore my reply. I also put my hands up to going on about SNP supporters being outraged with my stuck record comments. Thanks for your fair and balanced response. There's nothing like a good debate.:aok:

The Lord picked up the baton with your last post to me on the thread. Sorry I've been out of the game for a bit, and I'm just catching up periodically.

No Probs on my "Fair and Balanced responses".:thumbsup:

Keep up the good work.:aok:

Over 10 Million hits on Mhairi's speech. Now that's History:agree:

[johnbc70]

Over 10 Million hits on Mhairi's speech. Now that's History:agree:

A dog "talking" got 17M hits so make of that what you want.

[lord bunberry]

A dog "talking" got 17M hits so make of that what you want.
Have you got a link to that? :greengrin

[snooky]

A dog "talking" got 17M hits so make of that what you want.
Why bring Katie Price into this?

[Beefster]

Black's speech is being covered on the BBC's Sunday Politics with some very positive comments about Black. Hopefully, someone knocks up an informative pie chart by the end of the day so that I can form a proper opinion.

[Jack]

I hear that the traditional Westminster parties are getting all in a rage with the SNP for accepting invitations to speak at events, such as conferences and university debates, in England.

So many indeed I hear the SNP are to consider opening an English franchise.









Just kidding about the second part ;-)

Although an ENP without the right wingers and nazis associated with such parties in the past, in the SNP mold, may be a vote winner! I wonder if Sturgeon and Salmond are fishing around down there?

[Glory Lurker]

Alistair Darling backing Kendall for the leadership. That sums up Labour's journey over the last thirty years in a oner for me.

[marinello59]

A dog "talking" got 17M hits so make of that what you want.

That's how young whippersnappers like ronaldo7 judge the importance of things, YouTube hits and Facebook likes. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Alistair Darling backing Kendall for the leadership. That sums up Labour's journey over the last thirty years in a oner for me.

Looking at the contenders it would be hard to back anything but a loser really.

[weecounty hibby]

Looking at the contenders it would be hard to back anything but a loser really.

Apparently Ed Milliband reckons he was ahead of his time. Says it all about Labour at the moment. Never their fault and don't seem to learn any lessons

[ronaldo7]

That's how young whippersnappers like ronaldo7 judge the importance of things, YouTube hits and Facebook likes. :greengrin

I got told off by an Auld age Admin for winding you up on here, so I'll let this trolling ride.:greengrin

[marinello59]

I got told off by an Auld age Admin for winding you up on here, so I'll let this trolling ride.:greengrin

When did you wind me up? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

When did you wind me up? :greengrin

I don't afaic:wink:

[marinello59]

I don't afaic:wink:

I don't get this text speak that you youngsters use. :greengrin

[degenerated]

Looking at the contenders it would be hard to back anything but a loser really.
I'd go for the talking dug.

Whoops wrong post 😁

[Hibbyradge]

I got told off by an Auld age Admin for winding you up on here, so I'll let this trolling ride.:greengrin

Oi! :grr:

[ronaldo7]

Oi! :grr:

:faf:

[lucky]

48 Labour MPs act like an opposition the rest make me ashamed to a party member following their failure to oppose the Tory welfare cuts

[hibsbollah]

48 Labour MPs act like an opposition the rest make me ashamed to a party member following their failure to oppose the Tory welfare cuts

Why did Burnham and Cooper abstain after speaking against the cuts only last week? Very strange political decision to leave Corbyn as the only candidate actually willing to contest the fundamentals of austerity.

[snooky]

Why did Burnham and Cooper abstain after speaking against the cuts only last week? Very strange political decision to leave Corbyn as the only candidate actually willing to contest the fundamentals of austerity.

Are these the same politicians who urged us to vote in the election saying that not to vote (i.e. abstain) was wrong?

L ost
A nd
B razenly
O bvious
U nionist
R eserves

[Sylar]

48 Labour MPs act like an opposition the rest make me ashamed to a party member following their failure to oppose the Tory welfare cuts

Don't blame you one bit. I'd have resigned from the party this morning if I were a member.

They should change the seating arrangement in the chamber as Labour aren't fit to sit opposite the government.

[lucky]

Don't blame you one bit. I'd have resigned from the party this morning if I were a member.

They should change the seating arrangement in the chamber as Labour aren't fit to sit opposite the government.

Not going to quit but getting very closed to. Staying in to vote Corbyn and see what the result brings but it was poor politics by Harman and the front bench team.

[BroxburnHibee]

Not going to quit but getting very closed to. Staying in to vote Corbyn and see what the result brings but it was poor politics by Harman and the front bench team.

Exactly what's been wrong with Labour for years. More interested in playing politics than standing up for what's right.

I used to be a fervent Labour supporter but now I don't identify with them at all.

[lucky]

Exactly what's been wrong with Labour for years. More interested in playing politics than standing up for what's right.

I used to be a fervent Labour supporter but now I don't identify with them at all.

That's something we hear on the doorsteps. Even when we have good candidates people only go by the party nationally. If people want an effective opposition in Westminster & Holyrood then former Labour people need to help change the party going forward or we'll end up with the two governments have a free hand and that's not good for democracy or our country. But the reality is a split is coming within the Labour not just in Scotland but across the UK

[Future17]

Not going to quit but getting very closed to. Staying in to vote Corbyn and see what the result brings but it was poor politics by Harman and the front bench team.

Corbyn still available at 5/1 with the bookies. I didn't think he had a chance under the new system but, on the assumption that there are a good many like you who are disillusioned with events like yesterday's, the tide may be turning.

[snooky]

That's something we hear on the doorsteps. Even when we have good candidates people only go by the party nationally. If people want an effective opposition in Westminster & Holyrood then former Labour people need to help change the party going forward or we'll end up with the two governments have a free hand and that's not good for democracy or our country. But the reality is a split is coming within the Labour not just in Scotland but across the UK

Labour should be on a suicide watch. They are self-destructing by the day.
WTF are they thinking about supporting (in effect by abstaining) the Tories?
Totally traitorous to all the decent people that voted for them.
Harman and her ilk have become a freak side-show in the Whitehall farce.
('F-ar$e'? :wink:)

[degenerated]

Labour should be on a suicide watch. They are self-destructing by the day.
WTF are they thinking about supporting (in effect by abstaining) the Tories?
Totally traitorous to all the decent people that voted for them.
Harman and her ilk have become a freak side-show in the Whitehall farce.
('F-ar$e'? :wink:)
Ian Murray seems to have forgotten already

https://youtu.be/YSUYDqz3rw0

[ronaldo7]

The SNP take up their rightful seats as the official opposition today. Last day at School:greengrin

15177

Labstain have gone hame.

[marinello59]

Labour should be on a suicide watch. They are self-destructing by the day.
WTF are they thinking about supporting (in effect by abstaining) the Tories?
Totally traitorous to all the decent people that voted for them.
Harman and her ilk have become a freak side-show in the Whitehall farce.
('F-ar$e'? :wink:)

Harman is a disgrace. When Mhairi Black quoted Tony Benn the other day then Harman should have been hiding in shame. She probably didn't even realise she and others like her were the target though. There's a lot of decent Labour MP's, hopefully whoever the new leader is actually does some leading.

[Hiber-nation]

Are these the same politicians who urged us to vote in the election saying that not to vote (i.e. abstain) was wrong?

L ost
A nd
B razenly
O bvious
U nionist
R eserves

Wrong thread :grr:

:wink:

[Lucky_Jim]

I realise that as a Labour supporting Scot I am now part of a ever dwindling minority, and I totally understand the anger at how my party's interim leadership handled yesterday's vote, but what I can't get is that in a long thread of 3 pages not a single post is dedicated to attacking the Tory Government for actually introducing these draconian welfare changes. It seems to me that the SNP majority view that prevails in Scotland today would now rather take an opportunity to kick the Labour Party when we're already down than attack the Tories.

Labour's problems are evident to all and Harman's 'leadership' on the welfare bill vote was shambolic, but let's never forget that it was the Labour Party that introduced the welfare system and it's now the Tories that are dismantling it. The labour movement and party have always been and can continue to be progressive forces of good, albeit a bit lost of late, and it's utterly distasteful to see the glee that some are taking in attacking them rather than attacking the forces of conservatism. The Labour Party is clearly a rudderless ship right now and I really think that the SNP and others should stop spending so much time imposing on private grief and get on with doing their own opposing of the government.

The last Labour leader stood on a truly redistributive manifesto of tax rises for the wealthy, a mansion and a bankers tax. The current Labour leadership candidate that everyone is talking about is ant-trident, pro Ireland unification, anti austerity and pro higher tax rates. Both in the best traditions of Labour so all this Labour bashing is totally misplaced in my view. Perhaps anger should be reserved for a party that stood behind a prospectus for independence for Scotland based on a tax cut for big business.

[steakbake]

I hope Corbyn does well and I agree with large parts of what you have to say there, Lucky.

But the first point: why aren't people raging at the Tories instead of kicking Labour... I think really, we expect it of the Tories to be a shower of ********s but what is perhaps most disappointing is that Labour's stance yesterday was to let them get on with it without so much as a word of protest.

The vote was lost by 184. 184 Labour members abstained. They let the Tories get away with it...

[lucky]

I hope Corbyn does well and I agree with large parts of what you have to say there, Lucky.

But the first point: why aren't people raging at the Tories instead of kicking Labour... I think really, we expect it of the Tories to be a shower of ********s but what is perhaps most disappointing is that Labour's stance yesterday was to let them get on with it without so much as a word of protest.

The vote was lost by 184. 184 Labour members abstained. They let the Tories get away with it...

184 is not as simple as that. Pairing takes place so even if Labour had opposed it still would have carried. Still does not excuse Labour abstaining

[marinello59]

I realise that as a Labour supporting Scot I am now part of a ever dwindling minority, and I totally understand the anger at how my party's interim leadership handled yesterday's vote, but what I can't get is that in a long thread of 3 pages not a single post is dedicated to attacking the Tory Government for actually introducing these draconian welfare changes. It seems to me that the SNP majority view that prevails in Scotland today would now rather take an opportunity to kick the Labour Party when we're already down than attack the Tories.

Labour's problems are evident to all and Harman's 'leadership' on the welfare bill vote was shambolic, but let's never forget that it was the Labour Party that introduced the welfare system and it's now the Tories that are dismantling it. The labour movement and party have always been and can continue to be progressive forces of good, albeit a bit lost of late, and it's utterly distasteful to see the glee that some are taking in attacking them rather than attacking the forces of conservatism. The Labour Party is clearly a rudderless ship right now and I really think that the SNP and others should stop spending so much time imposing on private grief and get on with doing their own opposing of the government.

The last Labour leader stood on a truly redistributive manifesto of tax rises for the wealthy, a mansion and a bankers tax. The current Labour leadership candidate that everyone is talking about is ant-trident, pro Ireland unification, anti austerity and pro higher tax rates. Both in the best traditions of Labour so all this Labour bashing is totally misplaced in my view. Perhaps anger should be reserved for a party that stood behind a prospectus for independence for Scotland based on a tax cut for big business.
You make some good points. The fact that Labour seem more worthy of attack from the SNP than the real guilty party is baffling. It looks like playing party politics is much more important than getting on with the job of highlighting the weaknesses of the Governments policies and offering alternatives. That appears to comes secondary to scoring points over another opposition party at the moment. Hopefully both parties will up their game once Labour has a new leader and they can work together on the vast amount of common ground they share.

[Smartie]

I realise that as a Labour supporting Scot I am now part of a ever dwindling minority, and I totally understand the anger at how my party's interim leadership handled yesterday's vote, but what I can't get is that in a long thread of 3 pages not a single post is dedicated to attacking the Tory Government for actually introducing these draconian welfare changes. It seems to me that the SNP majority view that prevails in Scotland today would now rather take an opportunity to kick the Labour Party when we're already down than attack the Tories.

Labour's problems are evident to all and Harman's 'leadership' on the welfare bill vote was shambolic, but let's never forget that it was the Labour Party that introduced the welfare system and it's now the Tories that are dismantling it. The labour movement and party have always been and can continue to be progressive forces of good, albeit a bit lost of late, and it's utterly distasteful to see the glee that some are taking in attacking them rather than attacking the forces of conservatism. The Labour Party is clearly a rudderless ship right now and I really think that the SNP and others should stop spending so much time imposing on private grief and get on with doing their own opposing of the government.

The last Labour leader stood on a truly redistributive manifesto of tax rises for the wealthy, a mansion and a bankers tax. The current Labour leadership candidate that everyone is talking about is ant-trident, pro Ireland unification, anti austerity and pro higher tax rates. Both in the best traditions of Labour so all this Labour bashing is totally misplaced in my view. Perhaps anger should be reserved for a party that stood behind a prospectus for independence for Scotland based on a tax cut for big business.

You make some fair points there.

But what was most important in the vote was who everyone actually voted for. The petty squabbling and the politicking can happen afterwards.

The Tories are *******s, we all know that, it is not news to state that. But they can be stopped from being *******s when Labour, THE OPPOSITION, actually oppose them in votes. It really should be obvious which way Labour should vote as the bill is fundamentally against what the Labour party stands for (or should stand for, or used to stand for).

The SNP stood up to the Tories and to a man (and woman) opposed the bill.

Labour did not.

Labour consistently refused to co-operate with the SNP in the run up to the election.

The SNP have chosen a position and message and are sticking consistently to it. Labour are still in limbo, a weak and rudderless ship.

Life, and politics goes on, regardless of whether parties have leaders or not. Labour are still the SNP's biggest rivals in Scotland. I think it is naive in the extreme to expect the SNP not to take such an opportunity to put the boot in.

Politics is an ugly game.

[lord bunberry]

You make some good points. The fact that Labour seem more worthy of attack from the SNP than the real guilty party is baffling. It looks like playing party politics is much more important than getting on with the job of highlighting the weaknesses of the Governments policies and offering alternatives. That appears to comes secondary to scoring points over another opposition party at the moment. Hopefully both parties will up their game once Labour has a new leader and they can work together on the vast amount of common ground they share.
The best way of highlighting the governments weaknesses is to vote against them and stand up to them, something her majesty's official opposition is failing to do. Labour deserve all they are getting right now. Almost every speech made in the House of Commons by an SNP MP highlights their opposition to Tory austerity, the attacks on Labour come from the frustration felt from the lack of support in these matters. Cameron and Osborne probably can't believe their luck right now.

[marinello59]

The best way of highlighting the governments weaknesses is to vote against them and stand up to them, something her majesty's official opposition is failing to do. Labour deserve all they are getting right now. Almost every speech made in the House of Commons by an SNP MP highlights their opposition to Tory austerity, the attacks on Labour come from the frustration felt from the lack of support in these matters. Cameron and Osborne probably can't believe their luck right now.

Yesterday Osborne announced that he is asking all Government departments to find ways of making 40% savings. Simply savage. Todays social media post from my local SNP party was yet another attack on Labour. No mention of Osborne's plans. Labour were wrong to abstain but they really are not the enemy here. I voted SNP partly because Nicola Sturgeon would be a party for all Scots. The more they persist with favouring attacks on Labour the more they appear to be more interested in destroying any opposition at all in Scotland and that would be anything but good for Scotland.
Labour and SNP have virtually identical policies in many areas. If Sturgeon was serious about working together with other 'progressive' parties for the good of the whole of the UK is sticking the boot in to a leaderless Labour Party really going to help to forge those alliances?

[lord bunberry]

Yesterday Osborne announced that he is asking all Government departments to find ways of making 40% savings. Simply savage. Todays social media post from my local SNP party was yet another attack on Labour. No mention of Osborne's plans. Labour were wrong to abstain but they really are not the enemy here. I voted SNP partly because Nicola Sturgeon would be a party for all Scots. The more they persist with favouring attacks on Labour the more they appear to be more interested in destroying any opposition at all in Scotland and that would be anything but good for Scotland.
Labour and SNP have virtually identical policies in many areas. If Sturgeon was serious about working together with other 'progressive' parties for the good of the whole of the UK is sticking the boot in to a leaderless Labour Party really going to help to forge those alliances?
I agree with you on the social media aspect(as I did earlier in this thread:greengrin). The problem is that Labour are leaving them open to these sort of attacks by failing to oppose the Tories. Labour and the SNP have many similar policies, but I can see that changing when a new leader is appointed.

[lucky]

Labour are a shambles but the games being played by the SNP with regards to where they sit are embarrassing. The SNP are more interested in killing off Labour than attacking the Tories because they know a Tory govt is best route to independence. In reality the SNP seem to accept short term pain for Scotland as long as they can gain another referendum

[xyz23jc]

Labour are a shambles but the games being played by the SNP with regards to where they sit are embarrassing. The SNP are more interested in killing off Labour than attacking the Tories because they know a Tory govt is best route to independence. In reality the SNP seem to accept short term pain for Scotland as long as they can gain another referendum

And what are Labour 'really' interested in? I'm at a loss to understand....Not.

[ronaldo7]

Yesterday Osborne announced that he is asking all Government departments to find ways of making 40% savings. Simply savage. Todays social media post from my local SNP party was yet another attack on Labour. No mention of Osborne's plans. Labour were wrong to abstain but they really are not the enemy here. I voted SNP partly because Nicola Sturgeon would be a party for all Scots. The more they persist with favouring attacks on Labour the more they appear to be more interested in destroying any opposition at all in Scotland and that would be anything but good for Scotland.
Labour and SNP have virtually identical policies in many areas. If Sturgeon was serious about working together with other 'progressive' parties for the good of the whole of the UK is sticking the boot in to a leaderless Labour Party really going to help to forge those alliances?

This is what I got from the SNP today, along with many others. http://t.co/4hp7RDyZAz

They're fighting both the Tories and Labour, but they wouldn't have to if Labour actually came out and stood for something. The points you make on some of the policies are correct, it's just some of the Labour party don't want to follow through on them.

We'll all be in a state of flux whilst the Labour party decide what route they wish to take.

As for forging alliances, the hand of friendship has been offered on many occasions prior to, and after the Election, and has continually been rebuffed.

It seems the right are rolling out the big hitters to squash Corbyn. I wonder which candidate will fall on their sword to allow the right's vote in the party to support one or two candidates. I predict Kendall will swoon first.

Only when Labour vote, will we know if anyone can work with them.

[Geo_1875]

Labour are a shambles but the games being played by the SNP with regards to where they sit are embarrassing. The SNP are more interested in killing off Labour than attacking the Tories because they know a Tory govt is best route to independence. In reality the SNP seem to accept short term pain for Scotland as long as they can gain another referendum

Are you more embarrassed that the SNP MPs sat in the opposition benches or that the Labour MPs didn't turn up for work?

[marinello59]

This is what I got from the SNP today, along with many others. http://t.co/4hp7RDyZAz

They're fighting both the Tories and Labour, but they wouldn't have to if Labour actually came out and stood for something. The points you make on some of the policies are correct, it's just some of the Labour party don't want to follow through on them.

We'll all be in a state of flux whilst the Labour party decide what route they wish to take.

As for forging alliances, the hand of friendship has been offered on many occasions prior to, and after the Election, and has continually been rebuffed.

It seems the right are rolling out the big hitters to squash Corbyn. I wonder which candidate will fall on their sword to allow the right's vote in the party to support one or two candidates. I predict Kendall will swoon first.

Only when Labour vote, will we know if anyone can work with them.

I take it that's what they sent out to the party faithful. It's not what the party in Aberdeen decided was most worthy of sharing on Facebook today.
As for the SNP fighting Labour the level of vitriol being directed towards them from the SNP appears to be more than that which is being directed at the Party that is actually implementing the policies. That may be fine for all the SNP party loyalists but not for the rest of us.
Labour are in a state of flux, it beggars belief that they ended up with an interim leader that can't actually lead. I don't see how that places 'us all' in a state of flux though, surely it's mainly Labours problem?
There was no way that Milliband could say that they would be willing to form an alliance during the election when they were fighting for an outright majority which is perfectly understandable. As a clever political operator Sturgeon was well aware of that. She gambled on what most of us thought was going to happen, a hung parliament with the SNP holding the balance of power. Everything changed when the Tories emerged victorious. There is no need for a formal alliance of any sort now.
Kendall is already out of contention. Her backing of Harman's views on the Welfare Bill has sealed her fate. It's not the SNP that the new leader of the Labour Party has to appeal to though as an opposition party there is no need for them to work with anybody. It's the electorate they have to convince. Sadly I don't think any of the candidates have enough appeal to do that.

[ronaldo7]

I take it that's what they sent out to the party faithful. It's not what the party in Aberdeen decided was most worthy of sharing on Facebook today.
As for the SNP fighting Labour the level of vitriol being directed towards them from the SNP appears to be more than that which is being directed at the Party that is actually implementing the policies. That may be fine for all the SNP party loyalists but not for the rest of us.
Labour are in a state of flux, it beggars belief that they ended up with an interim leader that can't actually lead. I don't see how that places 'us all' in a state of flux though, surely it's mainly Labours problem?
There was no way that Milliband could say that they would be willing to form an alliance during the election when they were fighting for an outright majority which is perfectly understandable. As a clever political operator Sturgeon was well aware of that. She gambled on what most of us thought was going to happen, a hung parliament with the SNP holding the balance of power. Everything changed when the Tories emerged victorious. There is no need for a formal alliance of any sort now.
Kendall is already out of contention. Her backing of Harman's views on the Welfare Bill has sealed her fate. It's not the SNP that the new leader of the Labour Party has to appeal to though as an opposition party there is no need for them to work with anybody. It's the electorate they have to convince. Sadly I don't think any of the candidates have enough appeal to do that.

No idea if it went to the party faithful or not. Got it on my twitter feed from them.

Hand of friendship went out from our youngest MP the other day, but I'm sure we've covered that. :greengrin Then Labour go and abstain on the Welfare, and finance bills.

As I've said, we'll not know if Labour will be pushing right or left until they elect a leader.:aok:

[marinello59]

No idea if it went to the party faithful or not. Got it on my twitter feed from them.

Hand of friendship went out from our youngest MP the other day, but I'm sure we've covered that. :greengrin Then Labour go and abstain on the Welfare, and finance bills.

As I've said, we'll not know if Labour will be pushing right or left until they elect a leader.:aok:

Mhairi Black hit the nail on the head perfectly with her quoting of Tony Benn. Harman then obliged by giving a perfect demonstration of a weathercock by abstaining from voting on the Welfare bill. :greengrin I'm not so sure that was the hand of friendship though, more a case of telling them where they are going wrong. I don't think the parties have to be particularly friendly but both of them need to remain focussed on the fact that they are opposing the party on the benches opposite rather than the one beside them.
As for Labour moving Left and Right that's not the divide that the SNP are pushing to exploit in Scotland, it's the gap between pro-Independence Parties and what they wish to portray as merely Unionist parties. If it was between Left and Right then the SNP might consider moving away from exactly the same centre ground that every other major party is trying to claim as their own.

[marinello59]

No idea if it went to the party faithful or not. Got it on my twitter feed from them.


Our local MP's on Facebook now laying in to the Welfare Bill so it looks like I was too quick to condemn them. :greengrin
Edit:- They do seem to be spending as much time condemning Labour as the Tories and trying to suggest that the bill would have failed if Labour hadn't abstained. It wouldn't have.

[Glory Lurker]

As part of the Yes campaign, the SNP spent two years campaigning for an arrangement that would probably mean Scotland never had another Tory government.

I saw a stat a few weeks ago that said the party most targeted by SNP General Election material was the Tories. The party most targeted by Labour (and the Lib Dems and the Tories)? Yep, SNP. I didn't get the source for that stat so in case it's wrong I'll move on to the voting records of SNP and Labour since the election. We know who has opposed the Tories most there.

What more can the SNP do? Frankly, so what if they put the boot in to Labour? Labour deserves it and has done for years. And this is being done at the same time as actually opposing the Tories. All sounds fair enough to me.

[heretoday]

Labour has a very lack lustre line-up of candidates. At least Corbyn seems honest and forthright.

I can see the Labour Party splitting up in the next couple of years.

[ronaldo7]

Mhairi Black hit the nail on the head perfectly with her quoting of Tony Benn. Harman then obliged by giving a perfect demonstration of a weathercock by abstaining from voting on the Welfare bill. :greengrin I'm not so sure that was the hand of friendship though, more a case of telling them where they are going wrong. I don't think the parties have to be particularly friendly but both of them need to remain focussed on the fact that they are opposing the party on the benches opposite rather than the one beside them.
As for Labour moving Left and Right that's not the divide that the SNP are pushing to exploit in Scotland, it's the gap between pro-Independence Parties and what they wish to portray as merely Unionist parties. If it was between Left and Right then the SNP might consider moving away from exactly the same centre ground that every other major party is trying to claim as their own.

I'd agree that most parties are centred in the middle ground and only slightly left or right whichever party you look at.

It's become the parties who support the have's and have not's.

[Beefster]

I'd agree that most parties are centred in the middle ground and only slightly left or right whichever party you look at.

It's become the parties who support the have's and have not's.

As usual, it's nowhere near as black and white as that.

I considered myself a 'have'. I'm not rich but myself and Mrs Beefster both work, get paid well, have our own house etc. The SNP have given us council tax freezes and free prescriptions, the last UK government removed our child benefit.

[stoneyburn hibs]

As part of the Yes campaign, the SNP spent two years campaigning for an arrangement that would probably mean Scotland never had another Tory government.

I saw a stat a few weeks ago that said the party most targeted by SNP General Election material was the Tories. The party most targeted by Labour (and the Lib Dems and the Tories)? Yep, SNP. I didn't get the source for that stat so in case it's wrong I'll move on to the voting records of SNP and Labour since the election. We know who has opposed the Tories most there.

What more can the SNP do? Frankly, so what if they put the boot in to Labour? Labour deserves it and has done for years. And this is being done at the same time as actually opposing the Tories. All sounds fair enough to me.

Well said, Labour voters have some neck saying that the SNP shouldn't be putting the boot into Labour and concentrate on opposing the Tories. As you said, they are doing both quite easily.
I'd never vote Labour but I can take to Jeremy Corbyn, really don't get the thinking that it would be a disaster for Labour if he is to win the vote.

[steakbake]

I agree. I'd like to think Corbyn would bring out the kind of voters who usually don't bother. Have to say, I can't stand Burnham. There's something pious and hypocritical about him.

[ronaldo7]

As usual, it's nowhere near as black and white as that.

I considered myself a 'have'. I'm not rich but myself and Mrs Beefster both work, get paid well, have our own house etc. The SNP have given us council tax freezes and free prescriptions, the last UK government removed our child benefit.

You're right, it's not all black and white, however in a Tory government flush with Millionaires on the cabinet, they sure aren't looking after the poor.

I'm not talking about Mr & Mrs Average here, own their house, both work etc, many families do, and while they try and keep the wolf from the door, the Tories are lowering taxes for the rich/super rich, and ensuring Inheritance tax benefits their pals/donors.

It seems the Snp have been governing for all of Scotland if they've given the benefits of free prescription, and council tax freezes for all.:wink:

[HappyAsHellas]

We are all being drawn into the web that is created and maintained by right wing forces, both here and on an international level. How dare it be suggested that the Labour party elect a leader whose views are a bit on the left side. Tony Blair comes off the after dinner speech parade to remind Britain that this is not what we want. Gideon is telling us that certain gov departments may have to cut their budgets by 40% and the so called Labour party don't really complain at all, and they have the audacity to wonder as to why we are deserting them in droves. In Spain the Podamos party is getting scathing criticism for being out of touch and yet have a large support with the people. Perhaps it's just me, but I look around today and seriously wonder where the next good political leader will come from. The men in suits are ruling the roost, unelected and seemingly unobtrusive and yet staggeringly successful. TTIPP is on it's way and nothing is happening to counteract it. The only real opposition here is the SNP and I fear they might not be up to the task. It's after 2 in the morning and I am as clear headed as any local politician although I am somewhat the worse for alcohol abuse as it is known nowadays. Christ it's pathetic at times!

[Beefster]

You're right, it's not all black and white, however in a Tory government flush with Millionaires on the cabinet, they sure aren't looking after the poor.

I'm not talking about Mr & Mrs Average here, own their house, both work etc, many families do, and while they try and keep the wolf from the door, the Tories are lowering taxes for the rich/super rich, and ensuring Inheritance tax benefits their pals/donors.

It seems the Snp have been governing for all of Scotland if they've given the benefits of free prescription, and council tax freezes for all.:wink:

Universal benefits (whether it's child benefit, council tax freezes, free prescriptions or child trust fund) divert public money to the wrong people at the expense of the right people. There's no getting round that IMHO.

Again, it's not all black and white. Increases to inheritance tax and tax rate bands limits don't just benefit the rich (unless you consider a one worker family bringing in ~£50000 pa with a house they bought decades ago as 'rich/super-rich'). I presume there are no objections to the increases in personal allowance that benefit the lower paid more that anyone else?

To be honest, given how vocal they are about standing up for the working man, if anyone can tell me one meaningful redistributive thing that the SNP have implemented in government, it would be much appreciated because I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

I'm no cheerleader for either the last or current UK government (there isn't a party that reflects my pro-Europe, pro-immigration, generally centre-right on the rest views) but I do find it slightly frustrating that there is this dogmatism in UK political discourse that everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) is evil whilst everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) can be totally justified. They all play politics at the expense of doing the right thing some/most of the time.

[RyeSloan]

Universal benefits (whether it's child benefit, council tax freezes, free prescriptions or child trust fund) divert public money to the wrong people at the expense of the right people. There's no getting round that IMHO. Again, it's not all black and white. Increases to inheritance tax and tax rate bands limits don't just benefit the rich (unless you consider a one worker family bringing in ~£50000 pa with a house they bought decades ago as 'rich/super-rich'). I presume there are no objections to the increases in personal allowance that benefit the lower paid more that anyone else? To be honest, given how vocal they are about standing up for the working man, if anyone can tell me one meaningful redistributive thing that the SNP have implemented in government, it would be much appreciated because I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I'm no cheerleader for either the last or current UK government (there isn't a party that reflects my pro-Europe, pro-immigration, generally centre-right on the rest views) but I do find it slightly frustrating that there is this dogmatism in UK political discourse that everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) is evil whilst everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) can be totally justified. They all play politics at the expense of doing the right thing some/most of the time.

I tend to agree Beefster...the rhetoric seems to be getting worse as well.

Corbyn is a good example of that, his people's QE plan takes a pretty ropey idea and turns it totally bonkers, I mean why even pretend to borrow government overspending now, let's just make the BoE print money and let the government spend it as they wish! Brilliant!

People still seem wedded to the idea that government has all the answers and if only they had more time or more money or more consideration for the poor or more powers or more control over anything and everything (postal deliveries for example!) then everything would be just fine....yet it is the same institutions that people put so much faith in that they spend so much time attacking. I find it all a bit strange to be honest.

Bill Bonner and his 'zombie theory' sums it all up nicely I would say.

[hibsbollah]

Universal benefits (whether it's child benefit, council tax freezes, free prescriptions or child trust fund) divert public money to the wrong people at the expense of the right people. There's no getting round that IMHO.

Again, it's not all black and white. Increases to inheritance tax and tax rate bands limits don't just benefit the rich (unless you consider a one worker family bringing in ~£50000 pa with a house they bought decades ago as 'rich/super-rich'). I presume there are no objections to the increases in personal allowance that benefit the lower paid more that anyone else?

To be honest, given how vocal they are about standing up for the working man, if anyone can tell me one meaningful redistributive thing that the SNP have implemented in government, it would be much appreciated because I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

I'm no cheerleader for either the last or current UK government (there isn't a party that reflects my pro-Europe, pro-immigration, generally centre-right on the rest views) but I do find it slightly frustrating that there is this dogmatism in UK political discourse that everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) is evil whilst everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) can be totally justified. They all play politics at the expense of doing the right thing some/most of the time.

If Liz Kendall wins you'll have a natural home in Labour I reckon. That's her pretty much down to a tee.

[hibsbollah]

I tend to agree Beefster...the rhetoric seems to be getting worse as well.

Corbyn is a good example of that, his people's QE plan takes a pretty ropey idea and turns it totally bonkers, I mean why even pretend to borrow government overspending now, let's just make the BoE print money and let the government spend it as they wish! Brilliant!

People still seem wedded to the idea that government has all the answers and if only they had more time or more money or more consideration for the poor or more powers or more control over anything and everything (postal deliveries for example!) then everything would be just fine....yet it is the same institutions that people put so much faith in that they spend so much time attacking. I find it all a bit strange to be honest.

Bill Bonner and his 'zombie theory' sums it all up nicely I would say.

'Postal deliveries' (or more accurately, trying to return the Post Office from a state of disintegration to what it used to be, a great public service which was efficient and for which the public held genuine affection) is a great example of what is happening regarding public opinion and lack of democratic representation. Only a Corbyn win and a recalibration of the opposition will give a voice to these views.

Im sure we'll see a lot of chucking around epithets like 'bonkers' re Corbyn and economics for the foreseeable future. Trying to scare people that the three day week, power cuts and prog rock are coming back just because someone in the public eye is for once actually talking about wealth redistribution and progressive taxation. Its all fairly meaningless.

[RyeSloan]

'Postal deliveries' (or more accurately, trying to return the Post Office from a state of disintegration to what it used to be, a great public service which was efficient and for which the public held genuine affection) is a great example of what is happening regarding public opinion and lack of democratic representation. Only a Corbyn win and a recalibration of the opposition will give a voice to these views. Im sure we'll see a lot of chucking around epithets like 'bonkers' re Corbyn and economics for the foreseeable future. Trying to scare people that the three day week, power cuts and prog rock are coming back just because someone in the public eye is for once actually talking about wealth redistribution and progressive taxation. Its all fairly meaningless.

Look I can handle a three day week but prog rock...come on ;-)

The Royal Mail wasn't efficient, look at the huge pension deficit the state has taken responsibility for! Anyway I'm sure we will never agree on this but I'm really curious as to why anyone would think a postal service should be run and owned by the state...what purpose does that serve?

Corbyn's economics are bonkers, basically he wants the state to go back to being the director of industrial policy. Again I'm really curious as to why anyone believes civil servants and politicians are capable of directing successful industrial policy. Running a country with mandarins controlling industry is a very short route to wealth destruction, the exact opposite outcome of what will genuinely help the nation to create the wealth and excess output to pay for the welfare state.

As for wealth redistribution...you say that like there is none of that happening just now but a relatively recent OBR report suggests total welfare spending could be as high as about 60% or over £400bn a year...now if that's not redistribution I'm not sure what is. Even the IFS taking only benefits (incl state pension) puts the figure at over 30%.

As I said I know we are poles apart on this but I honestly think a lot of people miss the point...governments doing less and meddling less (like the tax credit policy that has only encouraged the rise in low paid and part time work) would allow for better productivity and a wealthier nation. It is after all increasing productivity that is they key to increasing standards of living not constant fiddling from our politicians.

[hibsbollah]

Look I can handle a three day week but prog rock...come on ;-)

The Royal Mail wasn't efficient, look at the huge pension deficit the state has taken responsibility for! Anyway I'm sure we will never agree on this but I'm really curious as to why anyone would think a postal service should be run and owned by the state...what purpose does that serve?

Corbyn's economics are bonkers, basically he wants the state to go back to being the director of industrial policy. Again I'm really curious as to why anyone believes civil servants and politicians are capable of directing successful industrial policy. Running a country with mandarins controlling industry is a very short route to wealth destruction, the exact opposite outcome of what will genuinely help the nation to create the wealth and excess output to pay for the welfare state.

As for wealth redistribution...you say that like there is none of that happening just now but a relatively recent OBR report suggests total welfare spending could be as high as about 60% or over £400bn a year...now if that's not redistribution I'm not sure what is. Even the IFS taking only benefits (incl state pension) puts the figure at over 30%.

As I said I know we are poles apart on this but I honestly think a lot of people miss the point...governments doing less and meddling less (like the tax credit policy that has only encouraged the rise in low paid and part time work) would allow for better productivity and a wealthier nation. It is after all increasing productivity that is they key to increasing standards of living not constant fiddling from our politicians.

Wow. Yes, as you say we are poles apart here, but seriously, state control of industry has driven most of the growth since the industrial revolution! Japan's Ministry of Finance, the Asian tiger economies of South Korea Taiwan, and Singapore, and the Scandinavian and German , Italian and French post war social democratic economies all had the Government planning where the emphasis of growth should be, which industrial sectors were to be prioritised and where skills gaps existed and apprenticeships should be targeted. Even in the US, the massive military industrial complex, probably the worlds biggest economic 'cluster' is essentially state controlled. And have you ever travelled by train in the US and been blown away by the difference with the UK? Amtrak, state controlled. And these are all capitalist countries where the private sector and public sector work in harmony. Balance. Just the opposite of what we have now.

It's fine to build a critique against the State being the driver of industrial policy, but you just can't pretend it's somehow weird, or loony left. In fact, letting the apocryphal 'invisible hand of the market' rule every aspect of society is the real ideological extremism IMO.

i think we are also poles apart on what wealth distribution means. I'm talking about fiscal policy, not the welfare state.

[ronaldo7]

Universal benefits (whether it's child benefit, council tax freezes, free prescriptions or child trust fund) divert public money to the wrong people at the expense of the right people. There's no getting round that IMHO.

Again, it's not all black and white. Increases to inheritance tax and tax rate bands limits don't just benefit the rich (unless you consider a one worker family bringing in ~£50000 pa with a house they bought decades ago as 'rich/super-rich'). I presume there are no objections to the increases in personal allowance that benefit the lower paid more that anyone else?

To be honest, given how vocal they are about standing up for the working man, if anyone can tell me one meaningful redistributive thing that the SNP have implemented in government, it would be much appreciated because I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

I'm no cheerleader for either the last or current UK government (there isn't a party that reflects my pro-Europe, pro-immigration, generally centre-right on the rest views) but I do find it slightly frustrating that there is this dogmatism in UK political discourse that everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) is evil whilst everything that the Tories/Labour/SNP (delete as appropriate) can be totally justified. They all play politics at the expense of doing the right thing some/most of the time.


I tend to agree on the Universal benefits. If everyone pays in, everyone should benefit. It only fails when you don't tax those with the most.

A tax system that ensures those on the lowest wages benefit, and those who can afford it, pay more.

The social security system was always there as a safety net for those who've landed on hard times. It seems these days, that if you're out of work, you're classed as a scrounger or skiver.

We need to get back to looking after all of the people, and not just the greedy bonus seekers in society.

[RyeSloan]

Wow. Yes, as you say we are poles apart here, but seriously, state control of industry has driven most of the growth since the industrial revolution! Japan's Ministry of Finance, the Asian tiger economies of South Korea Taiwan, and Singapore, and the Scandinavian and German , Italian and French post war social democratic economies all had the Government planning where the emphasis of growth should be, which industrial sectors were to be prioritised and where skills gaps existed and apprenticeships should be targeted. Even in the US, the massive military industrial complex, probably the worlds biggest economic 'cluster' is essentially state controlled. And have you ever travelled by train in the US and been blown away by the difference with the UK? Amtrak, state controlled. And these are all capitalist countries where the private sector and public sector work in harmony. Balance. Just the opposite of what we have now. It's fine to build a critique against the State being the driver of industrial policy, but you just can't pretend it's somehow weird, or loony left. In fact, letting the apocryphal 'invisible hand of the market' rule every aspect of society is the real ideological extremism IMO. i think we are also poles apart on what wealth distribution means. I'm talking about fiscal policy, not the welfare state.

Ach I knew we wouldn't agree :-)

To pick up on a few points, Japan's ministry of finance is probably one of the best examples of Mandarins at work! They created a huge bubble that's 2 decades on is still not re inflated. A re inflation that the BoJ is now throwing unprecedented amounts of printed money at in another grand experiment. Americas military complex is another great example of pork and how hard it is to turn off the tap once the government funds are flowing...even the U.S. is balking at its costs as their latest aircraft carrier fiasco (sound familiar?) shows. And as for Amtrack...it's never turned a profit since its inception and has burned through more than $40bn of subsidy in that time, if that's central planning at work I'd rather you kept it thanks ;-)

I'm not saying governments don't have a role to play just that their influence ends up distorting and resulting in multiple and varied unintended consequences..that more often than not lead to vested interests and public money being miss allocated on a grand scale.

As for wealth redistribution, I'm struggling to see how you can ignore hundreds of billions of pounds a year spent on welfare as not being the essence of exactly that. Fiscal policy (and by that I take you to mean economic policy) should be used to facilitate an economy that can change and innovate, not common by words that are normally associated with state led enterprises and yes previous examples in the UK do little to support the argument for them. I'm sure we will hear their lessons have been learned and the same mistakes won't happen but really what evidence is there that there is any truth in that?

Singapore is actually an interesting example though. Temasek and GIC have performed rather impressively but you would struggle to define them as state led enterprise I would suggest.

[hibsbollah]

Ach I knew we wouldn't agree :-)

To pick up on a few points, Japan's ministry of finance is probably one of the best examples of Mandarins at work! They created a huge bubble that's 2 decades on is still not re inflated. A re inflation that the BoJ is now throwing unprecedented amounts of printed money at in another grand experiment. Americas military complex is another great example of pork and how hard it is to turn off the tap once the government funds are flowing...even the U.S. is balking at its costs as their latest aircraft carrier fiasco (sound familiar?) shows. And as for Amtrack...it's never turned a profit since its inception and has burned through more than $40bn of subsidy in that time, if that's central planning at work I'd rather you kept it thanks ;-)

I'm not saying governments don't have a role to play just that their influence ends up distorting and resulting in multiple and varied unintended consequences..that more often than not lead to vested interests and public money being miss allocated on a grand scale.

As for wealth redistribution, I'm struggling to see how you can ignore hundreds of billions of pounds a year spent on welfare as not being the essence of exactly that. Fiscal policy (and by that I take you to mean economic policy) should be used to facilitate an economy that can change and innovate, not common by words that are normally associated with state led enterprises and yes previous examples in the UK do little to support the argument for them. I'm sure we will hear their lessons have been learned and the same mistakes won't happen but really what evidence is there that there is any truth in that?

Singapore is actually an interesting example though. Temasek and GIC have performed rather impressively but you would struggle to define them as state led enterprise I would suggest.

arggh! So much to disagree with, so little time.

[Big Ed]

The Indy have given Yvette Cooper a platform: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html

Straight out of the Jim Murphy playbook: "if you vote for [SNP/Corbyn] you'll give the Tories a free hand". Both predictable and depressing.

An eco-message, which will provide up to 30,000 jobs. Really!!

Call me cynical, but if there is something out there, untapped and ready to boost the economy by the potential creation of up to 30,000 jobs, why isn't everyone else all over it?

Equality for women: I'm all for it, but a male duo as Leader and Deputy, is only an outrage if a female candidate is beaten by inferior male candidates. Positive discrimination is an oxymoron.

The narrative of "crashing the economy" prior to the 2010 election, has become accepted. Cooper's rejection of this should be welcomed as a challenge to this. It is long overdue, because their timidity in sticking up for their record in Government, has handed Osborne an opportunity to mock their credibility at every turn and he has done this with relish.

Yvette Cooper: utterly uninspiring.

[Colr]

The Indy have given Yvette Cooper a platform: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html

Straight out of the Jim Murphy playbook: "if you vote for [SNP/Corbyn] you'll give the Tories a free hand". Both predictable and depressing.

An eco-message, which will provide up to 30,000 jobs. Really!!

Call me cynical, but if there is something out there, untapped and ready to boost the economy by the potential creation of up to 30,000 jobs, why isn't everyone else all over it?

Equality for women: I'm all for it, but a male duo as Leader and Deputy, is only an outrage if a female candidate is beaten by inferior male candidates. Positive discrimination is an oxymoron.

The narrative of "crashing the economy" prior to the 2010 election, has become accepted. Cooper's rejection of this should be welcomed as a challenge to this. It is long overdue, because their timidity in sticking up for their record in Government, has handed Osborne an opportunity to mock their credibility at every turn and he has done this with relish.

Yvette Cooper: utterly uninspiring.

Well,the CWU are going to make sure she's "purged" after Kim Il Corbyn wins.

[hibsbollah]

Kim Il Corbyn.

:rolleyes:
Embarassing.

[steakbake]

:rolleyes:
Embarassing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11768611/Corbyns-rivals-think-hes-a-dinosaur-they-couldnt-be-more-wrong.html

[Beefster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11768611/Corbyns-rivals-think-hes-a-dinosaur-they-couldnt-be-more-wrong.html

I'm not a huge fan of his politics but find Corbyn quite likeable and a nice change from the robots in charge everywhere else (and I include the SNP in that).

[steakbake]

I quite like him too. I think sections of the press are trying to paint him out to be a nutter, but I think this article is on the money. I like the way he's got the vacuous no-marks like Burnham, Cooper and Kendall a bit worried and that Blair doesn't like him: he should wear all these things as a badge of honour.

[Smartie]

I quite like him too. I think sections of the press are trying to paint him out to be a nutter, but I think this article is on the money. I like the way he's got the vacuous no-marks like Burnham, Cooper and Kendall a bit worried and that Blair doesn't like him: he should wear all these things as a badge of honour.

I like him too.

The rabid right-wing English press are never going to give him a fair kick of the ball but that might even work to his advantage.

There are people like him getting elected all over Europe. It could get very interesting indeed if he were to win.

[Colr]

I'm not a huge fan of his politics but find Corbyn quite likeable and a nice change from the robots in charge everywhere else (and I include the SNP in that).

Him and Sturgeon have benefited from a growth in the popularity of anti-politics. Its understandable and widespread. Hell, Russell Brand even has his followers.

He's still a theorist, though, and like most socialists he'll make the position of working class people better whilst ensuring they never become socially mobile enough to challenge the position of the left-wing intellectual elite he would establish.

[Colr]

I like him too.

The rabid right-wing English press are never going to give him a fair kick of the ball but that might even work to his advantage.

There are people like him getting elected all over Europe. It could get very interesting indeed if he were to win.

Yes. They were at it today, critising his policy of 7% on NI to pay for free higher education. Who could fail to see the logic in diverting that economic spend into over price humanities degrees from a sector which has yet to align itself with the needs of a modern economy.

[hibsbollah]

Yes. They were at it today, critising his policy of 7% on NI to pay for free higher education. Who could fail to see the logic in diverting that economic spend into over price humanities degrees from a sector which has yet to align itself with the needs of a modern economy.

I've read your final sentence a few times and I still can't make out what you mean.