English votes for English laws

[Just Alf]

The basic principle I get (and agree with) however this route seems extremely ill conceived :worms:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/governments-plans-english-votes-english-laws-get-worse-more-you-look-them

[lord bunberry]

It's a proper mess tbh. I think they should have more devolution down south to solve this problem. EVEL makes the problem worse and like the man says in that piece it will only lead to the other 3 countries feeling more out of the loop than before.

[Geo_1875]

The basic principle I get (and agree with) however this route seems extremely ill conceived :worms:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/governments-plans-english-votes-english-laws-get-worse-more-you-look-them

There are no "English Laws" that have no impact on the other home countries. The financial implications of these laws mean consequentials change at a minimum. And in the case of transport and vanity projects in the southeast of the country there is no ring-fencing that means Scots, Irish and Welsh taxpayers don't have to pay for them.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Can see the argument but then it surely had to work both ways.English MPsvoting on theScotland bill??

[Sylar]

There are no "English Laws" that have no impact on the other home countries. The financial implications of these laws mean consequentials change at a minimum. And in the case of transport and vanity projects in the southeast of the country there is no ring-fencing that means Scots, Irish and Welsh taxpayers don't have to pay for them.

Wouldn't the Sunday trading laws for England and Wales come under that very jurisdiction? They don't impact Scotland or Northern Ireland?

What would you describe as a 'vanity project' down here in terms of transport?

[RyeSloan]

Wouldn't the Sunday trading laws for England and Wales come under that very jurisdiction? They don't impact Scotland or Northern Ireland? What would you describe as a 'vanity project' down here in terms of transport?

I was amazed to learn England still has Sunday trading restrictions on 'large' retailers! Have they never heard of the internet?

[Sylar]

I was amazed to learn England still has Sunday trading restrictions on 'large' retailers! Have they never heard of the internet?

It's a pain in the arse - The 24 hour Tesco's all close at 4pm (or 6pm) on Sunday's!

All because of some archaic notion that Sunday is a day of rest and family!

[Scouse Hibee]

It's a pain in the arse - The 24 hour Tesco's all close at 4pm (or 6pm) on Sunday's!

All because of some archaic notion that Sunday is a day of rest and family!

I'm all for it, retailers open far too long as it is. About time it was cut back in my opinion,absulutely no need for Tescos or anyone else for that matter to open 24 hours.

[RyeSloan]

I'm all for it, retailers open far too long as it is. About time it was cut back in my opinion,absulutely no need for Tescos or anyone else for that matter to open 24 hours.

Why? What times do you consider appropriate?

I'm all for retailers opening whenever the hell they want...why should politicians decide when Tesco should be open for trading?

[Moulin Yarns]

consider the poor staff expected to work until late on the Sunday?

[Scouse Hibee]

Why? What times do you consider appropriate?

I'm all for retailers opening whenever the hell they want...why should politicians decide when Tesco should be open for trading?
I couldn't give a **** about politicians,it's the retail staff I feel for. No need whatsoever for shops to open so long,I also feel for the other workers what ever their occupation that are forced to work weekends and unsocial hours.

[Scouse Hibee]

9-5 Mon - Fri apart from one late night on a Thursday and half day Saturday and Wednesday.

[lord bunberry]

I've not got a problem with supermarkets opening 24hrs, when you go in its just folk stacking the shelves with an extra member of staff watching the tills. What I hate about the retail sector is the way the always force their staff to work bank holidays.

[Sylar]

I couldn't give a **** about politicians,it's the retail staff I feel for. No need whatsoever for shops to open so long,I also feel for the other workers what ever their occupation that are forced to work weekends and unsocial hours.

The vast majority of staff who work late evenings and weekends do so because they want to! They're students, high-school kids, part-time workers elsewhere looking to make up hours around their other commitments.

To have dictated opening hours based on some historical notion that everyone observes Christian values on a Sunday is a total fallacy and an obstruction to companies being able to trade. People don't suddenly stop needing things because the clock hit's 5pm or we used to attend church as a nation once upon a yesteryear.

[liamh2202]

The vast majority of staff who work late evenings and weekends do so because they want to! They're students, high-school kids, part-time workers elsewhere looking to make up hours around their other commitments.

To have dictated opening hours based on some historical notion that everyone observes Christian values on a Sunday is a total fallacy and an obstruction to companies being able to trade. People don't suddenly stop needing things because the clock hit's 5pm or we used to attend church as a nation once upon a yesteryear.

Correct. I worked nightshift asda when my little boy was born leaving a job as a tradesman. It suited to be home during the day and also the way is better on nightshift as well as it being a different job than during the day. Much more labour intensive much less customer relasions which suited me.

[RyeSloan]

9-5 Mon - Fri apart from one late night on a Thursday and half day Saturday and Wednesday.

Hee hee are you the Rvd I M Jolly?

[RyeSloan]

consider the poor staff expected to work until late on the Sunday?

Well the staff will probably be rather more poor if the shop is forced to close therefore their labour is not needed...

[stoneyburn hibs]

Those days are long gone SH, welcome to the 21st century ! There are countless reasons why people choose to work outside of the 9 till 5. No doubt that there will lots of people finishing their 9 till 5, to then start their part time job just to keep their head above the water.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Having worked 6 till 6, seven days a week for 12 week stints I don't have a lot of sympathy with the workers. Most of them are working these days, as I did, because it was choice. I do believe it should be up to the shop to decide when they open, not a politician. The shop should then ensure they have staff to cover these hours, thereby hopefully generating employment.

[Scouse Hibee]

Those days are long gone SH, welcome to the 21st century ! There are countless reasons why people choose to work outside of the 9 till 5. No doubt that there will lots of people finishing their 9 till 5, to then start their part time job just to keep their head above the water.

There are also countless reasons why shops do not need to stay open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. No need what so ever,people have so much money to spend,they will only spend that amount regardless of shop opening hours. And don't get me started on the tossers that think they can enter a shop with a minute to closing and then expect to shop for as long as they like.

[lucky]

I'm happy to support devolution to England or its regions but we can't have a two tier system at the UK Parliament. If this goes through it will lead to the break up of the UK. Westminster is for MPs of the 4 nations not just 1

[Future17]

I'm happy to support devolution to England or its regions but we can't have a two tier system at the UK Parliament. If this goes through it will lead to the break up of the UK. Westminster is for MPs of the 4 nations not just 1

I think that's a distinct possibility, although it will very much depend on the unfairness of any new system being blatantly apparent to people in Scotland who are not engaged with politics on a regular basis.

[Just Alf]

I think that's a distinct possibility, although it will very much depend on the unfairness of any new system being blatantly apparent to people in Scotland who are not engaged with politics on a regular basis.

That's very true. if EVEL goes through as it's currently planned then (as per the article in the 1st post) in theory English MP's will be able to vote on non devolved issues right across the UK whereas Non-English MP's won't, that's irrespective if a particular vote impacts on one particular country or not.

[Colr]

They opened the supermarkets on Sundays when the olympics were on. I remember that they were pretty empty.

[heretoday]

I'm all for it, retailers open far too long as it is. About time it was cut back in my opinion,absulutely no need for Tescos or anyone else for that matter to open 24 hours.

Hear Hear. We'll all be living in a giant Tesco's soon.

[Hibbyradge]

Longer hours opening at weekends makes complete sense.

Most people work Monday to Friday.

If folk want a day for the shops to close early, I think a Monday would be better.

Can someone remind me why, in 2015, working on a Sunday attracts more pay than a Saturday, or a Tuesday again?

[RyeSloan]

Hear Hear. We'll all be living in a giant Tesco's soon.

Much more like a giant amazon though isn't it!

Maybe we should restrict internet availability times as well if it's 24/7 retail you have a problem with?

As for the op it seems a strange solution but really I'm not sure there is a complete solution barring the creation of an English only legislature and a total federalisation of the UK.

[Scouse Hibee]

Longer hours opening at weekends makes complete sense.

Most people work Monday to Friday.

If folk want a day for the shops to close early, I think a Monday would be better.

Can someone remind me why, in 2015, working on a Sunday attracts more pay than a Saturday, or a Tuesday again?

Apart from shop workers who are forced to work weekends to pander to the needs of folk who wouldn't dream of working a Sunday!

It doesn't,that's the problem though,it should.

[Sylar]

Apart from shop workers who are forced to work weekends to pander to the needs of folk who wouldn't dream of working a Sunday!

It doesn't,that's the problem though,it should.

People going into the retail industry know fine well that weekends are going to be a priority for the reasons Radge outlines - shops are invariably busier because normal people work through the week. Just like during peak holiday times, shops are busier and open longer hours to facilitate the demand around Christmas etc. Any new member of staff to a retail environment is informed of this likelihood well in advance of starting.

Again, most of those who work in shops and supermarkets are younger people who balance school/university with part-time employment. And what about restaurants? Should they shut normal hours on a weekend too for the sake of the poor chef's/waiters etc who have to serve those of us who wouldn't dream of working on a Sunday?

For what it's worth, I do often think 24 hour shops are an unnecessary 'luxury' but prolonged opening beyond 4pm on a Sunday would certainly be beneficial, particularly given the underpinning reasons behind it. We've evolved as a nation and we're no longer a devoutly Christian faithful who cease all activities on Sundays...we stopped eating fish on a Friday decades ago, time for some of the other archaic customs to follow suit.

[Geo_1875]

People going into the retail industry know fine well that weekends are going to be a priority for the reasons Radge outlines - shops are invariably busier because normal people work through the week. Just like during peak holiday times, shops are busier and open longer hours to facilitate the demand around Christmas etc. Any new member of staff to a retail environment is informed of this likelihood well in advance of starting.

Again, most of those who work in shops and supermarkets are younger people who balance school/university with part-time employment. And what about restaurants? Should they shut normal hours on a weekend too for the sake of the poor chef's/waiters etc who have to serve those of us who wouldn't dream of working on a Sunday?

For what it's worth, I do often think 24 hour shops are an unnecessary 'luxury' but prolonged opening beyond 4pm on a Sunday would certainly be beneficial, particularly given the underpinning reasons behind it. We've evolved as a nation and we're no longer a devoutly Christian faithful who cease all activities on Sundays...we stopped eating fish on a Friday decades ago, time for some of the other archaic customs to follow suit.

You could just visit a Jewish retailer who is allowed to open all day Sunday. Just don't expect much service on a Saturday.

[Moulin Yarns]

You could just visit a Jewish retailer who is allowed to open all day Sunday. Just don't expect much service on a Saturday.

Who remembers Goldbergs at Tollcross?

[Scouse Hibee]

People going into the retail industry know fine well that weekends are going to be a priority for the reasons Radge outlines - shops are invariably busier because normal people work through the week. Just like during peak holiday times, shops are busier and open longer hours to facilitate the demand around Christmas etc. Any new member of staff to a retail environment is informed of this likelihood well in advance of starting.

Again, most of those who work in shops and supermarkets are younger people who balance school/university with part-time employment. And what about restaurants? Should they shut normal hours on a weekend too for the sake of the poor chef's/waiters etc who have to serve those of us who wouldn't dream of working on a Sunday?

For what it's worth, I do often think 24 hour shops are an unnecessary 'luxury' but prolonged opening beyond 4pm on a Sunday would certainly be beneficial, particularly given the underpinning reasons behind it. We've evolved as a nation and we're no longer a devoutly Christian faithful who cease all activities on Sundays...we stopped eating fish on a Friday decades ago, time for some of the other archaic customs to follow suit.

Oh yes we've certainly evolved as a nation where a decent work life balance is no longer considered, then again to quote you "normal people" don't work in retail,how strange. Some folk have worked in retail since before the forced hours so had no choice.

[Peevemor]

Here in Brittany (and most of France) the shops are closed on Sundays apart from

Tourist shops in tourist areas.
Some supermarkets (though very few and morning only)
Newsagents (again mostly morning only)
Bakers (the French still expect fresh bread every day - sometimes twice)
The run up to Christmas, where most shops have the right to open a maximum of 3 (IIRC) Sundays.

The social effect is amazing. Families see each other. People do things, eg. a wee run in the country, a stroll on the beach, cycle with the kids, you name it...

It's one of the things I noticed most when I moved here and it's really not too shabby. If you're used to it and therefore properly organised, you don't need to shop much on a Sunday.

[danhibees1875]

People going into the retail industry know fine well that weekends are going to be a priority for the reasons Radge outlines - shops are invariably busier because normal people work through the week. Just like during peak holiday times, shops are busier and open longer hours to facilitate the demand around Christmas etc. Any new member of staff to a retail environment is informed of this likelihood well in advance of starting.

Again, most of those who work in shops and supermarkets are younger people who balance school/university with part-time employment. And what about restaurants? Should they shut normal hours on a weekend too for the sake of the poor chef's/waiters etc who have to serve those of us who wouldn't dream of working on a Sunday?

For what it's worth, I do often think 24 hour shops are an unnecessary 'luxury' but prolonged opening beyond 4pm on a Sunday would certainly be beneficial, particularly given the underpinning reasons behind it. We've evolved as a nation and we're no longer a devoutly Christian faithful who cease all activities on Sundays...we stopped eating fish on a Friday decades ago, time for some of the other archaic customs to follow suit.

To be fair, There is nothing wrong with a fish Friday! :wink:

I only actually recently discovered it was a religious thing, I always assumed it was cause it had a nice ring to it! Does the bible say much about curry Thursday's and grill night Tuesdays? Or are they a wetherspoons creation?

[Jonnyboy]

Who remembers Goldbergs at Tollcross?

Me :greengrin

Pretty sure they were the first in Edinburgh to have automatic door opening as you approached the shop

[Sir David Gray]

I personally think it's a shame that society has decided that we no longer have one day in the week to just chill out, relax and spend time with family.

No-one's saying that people need to go to Church and read the Bible all day on a Sunday but I think it would be nice to have one day in the week where there's a clear difference with the rest of the week and I think it's a pity that that's no longer the case.

I'm not sure that's progress at all to be quite honest.

[Scouse Hibee]

I personally think it's a shame that society has decided that we no longer have one day in the week to just chill out, relax and spend time with family.

No-one's saying that people need to go to Church and read the Bible all day on a Sunday but I think it would be nice to have one day in the week where there's a clear difference with the rest of the week and I think it's a pity that that's no longer the case.

I'm not sure that's progress at all to be quite honest.

Totally agree mate, I loved the stance of Jenners years ago when they refused to open on a Sunday despite everyone else opening. In the end they felt they simply had to in order to retain their market share.

[Sylar]

Oh yes we've certainly evolved as a nation where a decent work life balance is no longer considered, then again to quote you "normal people" don't work in retail,how strange. Some folk have worked in retail since before the forced hours so had no choice.

Sorry, I'm not saying those who work in retail are weirdos :greengrin - "normal" was a bad choice of word though - majority will suffice.

Having said that, you make out as if those working in retail are being imposed upon to a man. Sure, the longer hours might inconvenience some people who were put in with the foundations but every single new member of staff joining any retail outlet is well aware that weekend and evening hours will be 'peak' demand because the vast majority of the population simply cannot shop during those hours. It's basic common sense. If all shops opened on a 9-5 basis, who would shop in them?

You also failed to address my point about restaurants or eating establishments - why are they OK to open late into the evenings or weekends. Or pubs for that matter?

I agree that 24 hours is probably needless, as how many people will you genuinely find in a Tesco or Asda at 3am in the morning to justify the opening, staffing, lighting, security etc. If these companies chose NOT to open longer hours on the Sunday, then fair enough IMO. I'm simply saying they shouldn't be mandated by some archaic notion of spirituality.

[Scouse Hibee]

Sorry, I'm not saying those who work in retail are weirdos :greengrin - "normal" was a bad choice of word though - majority will suffice.

Having said that, you make out as if those working in retail are being imposed upon to a man. Sure, the longer hours might inconvenience some people who were put in with the foundations but every single new member of staff joining any retail outlet is well aware that weekend and evening hours will be 'peak' demand because the vast majority of the population simply cannot shop during those hours. It's basic common sense. If all shops opened on a 9-5 basis, who would shop in them?

You also failed to address my point about restaurants or eating establishments - why are they OK to open late into the evenings or weekends. Or pubs for that matter?

I agree that 24 hours is probably needless, as how many people will you genuinely find in a Tesco or Asda at 3am in the morning to justify the opening, staffing, lighting, security etc. If these companies chose NOT to open longer hours on the Sunday, then fair enough IMO. I'm simply saying they shouldn't be mandated by some archaic notion of spirituality.

Pubs, restaurants and in fact anything to do with hospitality have always been open it's the nature of their business since bygone days. Retailers haven't and in my mind open now to excess. That's my opinion and I respect those that disagree, maybe my hatred of it was that I was directly affected and lost several thousands a year in earnings as a result. Anyway this could go on and on so I will now withdraw...........and maybe go and do the shopping in tesco 😈

[Moulin Yarns]

Me :greengrin

Pretty sure they were the first in Edinburgh to have automatic door opening as you approached the shop

And escalators. :agree:

[Geo_1875]

And escalators. :agree:

My mother loved Goldbergs. Unfortunately, they had too many glass display shelves and my brother and I were the clumsiest kids in Edinburgh. They also had a huge parrot or macaw which took a dislike to my brother. It used to go mental every time he approached it.

[alnewhaven]

And escalators. :agree:

Didn't Grants on the Bridges have escalators before Goldbergs?

[heretoday]

We used to ride Goldbergs escalators. They also had a roof garden. We never bought anything.

[Mikey09]

Was watching a wee bit of English votes for English laws on BBC Parliament and the biggest thing I took out it was... Isn't Chris Grayling a condescending twat?!

[ronaldo7]

Evel just been pushed through the UK parliament by the Tories.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Evel just been pushed through the UK parliament by the Tories.

Another step closer....

[ronaldo7]

Another step closer....

:agree:

[hibsbollah]

It probably won't ever be a piece of legislation with any relevance beyond symbolism. That could change if there were ever a Lab/SNP coalition govt at Westminster with the Tories as the biggest party in England.

[marinello59]

Evel just been pushed through the UK parliament by the Tories.

And we all thought Cameron wanted to keep the Union together. :greengrin

[Colr]

Evel just been pushed through the UK parliament by the Tories.

Excellent.

[The_Todd]

The Tories have played everyone magnificently. They've thrown a bit of red meat to the English nationalists to attract them to the Tories and wound up the Scottish Nationalists into a frenzy to ensure they stay as strong as possible. Divide and conquer for party political gain.

And special mention to Pete Wishart, who last year claimed EVEL was "inconsequential" and a matter Scottish people couldn't care less about, who has suddenly done a full U-turn and decided this is an outrage.

A win-win for the Tories and SNP today. Dreadful stuff.

[Colr]

I personally think it's a shame that society has decided that we no longer have one day in the week to just chill out, relax and spend time with family.

No-one's saying that people need to go to Church and read the Bible all day on a Sunday but I think it would be nice to have one day in the week where there's a clear difference with the rest of the week and I think it's a pity that that's no longer the case.

I'm not sure that's progress at all to be quite honest.

You can but it doesn't have to be the same day for everyone. Muslims may prefer Friday for their prayers.

[Colr]

The Tories have played everyone magnificently. They've thrown a bit of red meat to the English nationalists to attract them to the Tories and wound up the Scottish Nationalists into a frenzy to ensure they stay as strong as possible. Divide and conquer for party political gain.

And special mention to Pete Wishart, who last year claimed EVEL was "inconsequential" and a matter Scottish people couldn't care less about, who has suddenly done a full U-turn and decided this is an outrage.

A win-win for the Tories and SNP today. Dreadful stuff.

It stuck in a lot of throats when Scottish Labour MPs in the last but one parliament voted through unpopular NHS reforms which only applied in England and not in Scotland as it is devolved. There's been a feeling since that for the balance to be adjusted.

[The_Todd]

It stuck in a lot of throats when Scottish Labour MPs in the last but one parliament voted through unpopular NHS reforms which only applied in England and not in Scotland as it is devolved. There's been a feeling since that for the balance to be adjusted.

Don't get me wrong, there's a problem here and it needs solved. But in my opinion this means devolving power to England through its own parliament, giving each national parliament the same powers and using Westminster for reserved matters. EVEL is totally the wrong way about it - the only way you could see it as the answer is if you're trying to prokove the SNP, something the Tories appear to be hellbent on doing.

[easty]

Don't get me wrong, there's a problem here and it needs solved. But in my opinion this means devolving power to England through its own parliament, giving each national parliament the same powers and using Westminster for reserved matters. EVEL is totally the wrong way about it - the only way you could see it as the answer is if you're trying to prokove the SNP, something the Tories appear to be hellbent on doing.

That's absolutely how it should be. :agree:

[Peevemor]

Don't get me wrong, there's a problem here and it needs solved. But in my opinion this means devolving power to England through its own parliament, giving each national parliament the same powers and using Westminster for reserved matters. EVEL is totally the wrong way about it - the only way you could see it as the answer is if you're trying to prokove the SNP, something the Tories appear to be hellbent on doing.


That's absolutely how it should be. :agree:

:agree:

In 1996 the regional councils were scrapped and were effectively replaced by Scotland Regional Council (ie. the parliament) in 1999. Give England it's own regional council and be done with it.

[Colr]

Don't get me wrong, there's a problem here and it needs solved. But in my opinion this means devolving power to England through its own parliament, giving each national parliament the same powers and using Westminster for reserved matters. EVEL is totally the wrong way about it - the only way you could see it as the answer is if you're trying to prokove the SNP, something the Tories appear to be hellbent on doing.

There's no real appetite in England for another expensive layer of state bureaucracy and it wouldn't be in the Tories DNA to create it.

England is not as wedded to the big state as Scotland is.