Greece

[johnbc70]

So looks like a No vote, will they regret it when the banks don't open? I don't see how a No vote helps them get a better deal. A bit like me taking out a huge mortgage years ago and missing the repayments, then having a vote in my house not to accept the banks new repayment terms as we don't like them. The banks will just hit them harder now.

[bigwheel]

So looks like a No vote, will they regret it when the banks don't open? I don't see how a No vote helps them get a better deal. A bit like me taking out a huge mortgage years ago and missing the repayments, then having a vote in my house not to accept the banks new repayment terms as we don't like them. The banks will just hit them harder now.


How would you vote if the big guns in the EU, were asking you to cut your pension to 50% and then seeking to cut it again? It's an "enough is enough" vote...the people are crying out for help....60% + youth unemployment...it's a crying shame for the Greek people...either route forward is fraught with pain and difficulties...my heart goes out to them

[johnbc70]

Maybe short term pain for long term gain? But reports already state that the country is grinding to a halt as bills not being paid and supplies running low as no money to pay for them. I guess we will see how it pans out next few weeks but if the banks don't open this week panic and unrest will surely follow.

[bigwheel]

Maybe short term pain for long term gain? But reports already state that the country is grinding to a halt as bills not being paid and supplies running low as no money to pay for them. I guess we will see how it pans out next few weeks but if the banks don't open this week panic and unrest will surely follow.


they have a debt that is twice the size of their GDP...the austerity measures asked for by the EU would take around 20 years of pain to pay off...it's a lose lose situation this deal. The vote is NO to austerity...I guess it at least will give their government the strongest possible negotiating hand. whatever will happen will start to it happen soon though..as they will probably need to create their own currency to put some liquidity in their market. Peoples savings will be massively devalued...it's the people who are hurting here. In a way that is so socially and economically painful..people have almost no hope and their future security is being taken away from them...shocking

[hibsbollah]

So looks like a No vote, will they regret it when the banks don't open? I don't see how a No vote helps them get a better deal. A bit like me taking out a huge mortgage years ago and missing the repayments, then having a vote in my house not to accept the banks new repayment terms as we don't like them. The banks will just hit them harder now.

Making analogies between complex and vast national fiscal economies, and your own personal loan circumstances, isn't really getting to the heart of the matter.

what the battle in Greece is really about is democracy; the right of the Greek people to vote for an economic path that isn't the usual IMF led, neo liberal endless austerity that we are all told is The Only Way. This debate will probably split along the usual predictable ideological lines, but the truth is that if the bankers and Merkel win, it will be a body blow for democratic government which should concern everyone, Left or Right.

[Bristolhibby]

I view it like the last scene in Fight Club.

The Greeks are voting to reset the clock to zero. **** the banks.

How could their economy grow if they would be crippled for 20 years. Better off with a clean break and starting anew. Actually produce produce and trade again.

J

[lord bunberry]

It just goes to show how far the people have been pushed that they're prepared to take this chance. I hope it works for them and the people imposing these extreme measures realise that it's real lives they're dealing with.

[ronaldo7]

So looks like a No vote, will they regret it when the banks don't open? I don't see how a No vote helps them get a better deal. A bit like me taking out a huge mortgage years ago and missing the repayments, then having a vote in my house not to accept the banks new repayment terms as we don't like them. The banks will just hit them harder now.

The EU will have to rein in their demands, and allow the restructuring of the debt to be fairer to the Greek people. Syriza now have a stronger mandate imo and I'm sure Varoufakis will use it well.

It all depends whether Merkel will continue to allow the funds to flow. The next few days will be eventful. #OXI

[Colr]

How would you vote if the big guns in the EU, were asking you to cut your pension to 50% and then seeking to cut it again? It's an "enough is enough" vote...the people are crying out for help....60% + youth unemployment...it's a crying shame for the Greek people...either route forward is fraught with pain and difficulties...my heart goes out to them

The EU is not going to get all of its money back. Austerity will just choke growth even more. Take the haircut and kick them out.

[Future17]

The EU will have to rein in their demands, and allow the restructuring of the debt to be fairer to the Greek people. Syriza now have a stronger mandate imo and I'm sure Varoufakis will use it well.

It all depends whether Merkel will continue to allow the funds to flow. The next few days will be eventful. #OXI

Varoufakis gone...for now.
.

[RyeSloan]

The EU is not going to get all of its money back. Austerity will just choke growth even more. Take the haircut and kick them out.

If only it was that easy...letting a Grexit happen is admitting the whole Eurozone idea is based on a fallacy (that a single currency will cause long term convergence and ultimately closer and closer economic performance). I doubt the politicians in Europe are prepared to let that happen no matter how much pain they impose on the Greeks.

It's pretty clear that Greece should leave what has proven to be nothing more than a dressed up currency peg, doing so would impose severe losses on Greek savers, asset owners and internal creditors but ultimately out of the ashes would come a competitive economy built on a cheap currency. Again though the powers that be want to avoid that at all costs as there is no doubt the likes of Portugal, Spain and Italy would be rather envious of the Greeks new found freedoms and recovery and start thinking that removing themselves from the euro peg (which in reality is no more than a new deutchemark peg) is maybe the smart thing to do..

A bloomin horrible mess caused by political idealism and absolute madness from the IMF where the people have been forgotten.

[(((Fergus)))]

If only it was that easy...letting a Grexit happen is admitting the whole Eurozone idea is based on a fallacy (that a single currency will cause long term convergence and ultimately closer and closer economic performance). I doubt the politicians in Europe are prepared to let that happen no matter how much pain they impose on the Greeks.

It's pretty clear that Greece should leave what has proven to be nothing more than a dressed up currency peg, doing so would impose severe losses on Greek savers, asset owners and internal creditors but ultimately out of the ashes would come a competitive economy built on a cheap currency. Again though the powers that be want to avoid that at all costs as there is no doubt the likes of Portugal, Spain and Italy would be rather envious of the Greeks new found freedoms and recovery and start thinking that removing themselves from the euro peg (which in reality is no more than a new deutchemark peg) is maybe the smart thing to do..

A bloomin horrible mess caused by political idealism and absolute madness from the IMF where the people have been forgotten.

In other words both the Greeks and the Eurocrats have been living in a fantasy they can no longer afford.

[IWasThere2016]

If only it was that easy...letting a Grexit happen is admitting the whole Eurozone idea is based on a fallacy (that a single currency will cause long term convergence and ultimately closer and closer economic performance). I doubt the politicians in Europe are prepared to let that happen no matter how much pain they impose on the Greeks.

It's pretty clear that Greece should leave what has proven to be nothing more than a dressed up currency peg, doing so would impose severe losses on Greek savers, asset owners and internal creditors but ultimately out of the ashes would come a competitive economy built on a cheap currency. Again though the powers that be want to avoid that at all costs as there is no doubt the likes of Portugal, Spain and Italy would be rather envious of the Greeks new found freedoms and recovery and start thinking that removing themselves from the euro peg (which in reality is no more than a new deutchemark peg) is maybe the smart thing to do..

A bloomin horrible mess caused by political idealism and absolute madness from the IMF where the people have been forgotten.


In other words both the Greeks and the Eurocrats have been living in a fantasy they can no longer afford.

Yup. People/Taxpayers been misled by politicians/economists/IMF - where those paying were not told of the risk of lending to a 'poor' country and those in the 'poor' country not aware of the consequences of default/withdrawal.

It is a mess.

[marinello59]

Maybe short term pain for long term gain? But reports already state that the country is grinding to a halt as bills not being paid and supplies running low as no money to pay for them. I guess we will see how it pans out next few weeks but if the banks don't open this week panic and unrest will surely follow.

The pain that the population of Greece are being asked to endure by the politicians and administrators who got things so very wrong is not only unfair, it's bordering on cruel. It is up to the other Eurozone members now to offer a fairer solution to this where they take a larger share of the pain themselves.

[Pretty Boy]

The pain that the population of Greece are being asked to endure by the politicians and administrators who got things so very wrong is not only unfair, it's bordering on cruel. It is up to the other Eurozone members now to offer a fairer solution to this where they take a larger share of the pain themselves.

Yep. This is arguably the biggest crisis the European Union has ever faced and it is failing miserably.

I.wonder if the German economy would be the powerhouse it now is where it not for the debt 'restructuring' they were granted in 1953?

[Peevemor]

Yup. People/Taxpayers been misled by politicians/economists/IMF - where those paying were not told of the risk of lending to a 'poor' country and those in the 'poor' country not aware of the consequences of default/withdrawal.

It is a mess.


The pain that the population of Greece are being asked to endure by the politicians and administrators who got things so very wrong is not only unfair, it's bordering on cruel. It is up to the other Eurozone members now to offer a fairer solution to this where they take a larger share of the pain themselves.

While I'm happy that yesterday produced a 'no' vote, it should be remembered that large scale tax evasion, at all levels, is partly/largely responsible for the current crisis.

[lord bunberry]

While I'm happy that yesterday produced a 'no' vote, it should be remembered that large scale tax evasion, at all levels, is partly/largely responsible for the current crisis.

But the public sector workers and the poor weren't evading tax, yet they've had to suffer the worst. Monetary union can't work without political union. The northern European countries like Germany benefit massively from the Euro, if they want to continue reaping the benefits then they'll have to write off some of the debt from the southern European countries.

[Future17]

While I'm happy that yesterday produced a 'no' vote, it should be remembered that large scale tax evasion, at all levels, is partly/largely responsible for the current crisis.

True, but was that not going on when Greece was admitted into the Euro in the first place?

[Peevemor]

But the public sector workers and the poor weren't evading tax, yet they've had to suffer the worst. Monetary union can't work without political union. The northern European countries like Germany benefit massively from the Euro, if they want to continue reaping the benefits then they'll have to write off some of the debt from the southern European countries.

As I said, I wanted the 'no' result.


True, but was that not going on when Greece was admitted into the Euro in the first place?

Yes, but getting their house in order could/should have been a condition for getting some of the loans.

[Hibrandenburg]

True, but was that not going on when Greece was admitted into the Euro in the first place?

Think it was going on when Archimedes shouted "eureka" after seeing his tax rebate.

[ronaldo7]

Varoufakis gone...for now.
.

Heard that this morning. I wonder if he'll be pulling the stings in the back:greengrin

[Off the bar]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/Slavoj-Zizek-greece-chance-europe-awaken

Interesting take on it from Slavoj Zizek, not digested the full article yet but has made me rethink the whole situation.

[Jack]

Yes, but getting their house in order could/should have been a condition for getting some of the loans.

Absolutely. Greece should never have been admitted to the €.

[Hannah_hfc]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/06/02afbad7bc71ff9428bbcdf0d53a87d1.jpg

Been doing the rounds on twitter...

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[Future17]

Yes, but getting their house in order could/should have been a condition for getting some of the loans.

Exactly. Blame on both sides.

[HappyAsHellas]

Greece was admitted into the Euro after these nice bankers at Goldman Sachs "massaged" their figures, which no one in the EU decided to check up on. Greece has been run by oligarchs for many many years and breaking their stranglehold is going to take some size of gonads and is unlikely to happen. When the brown stuff hit the fan, they should have been left out then, but the good financial people decided that they could save the French and German banks who were horribly exposed then if they could talk Greece into accepting a "rescue" package that they could never afford. Had Tsipras signed the last offer from the troika, then Greece would have had more cuts, but in 2030 their debt to GDP ratio would have been only 125%. This is why Varoufakis and Tsipras told them to bolt. Now the ECB has stopped the ELA it looks like Europe is still wanting to force them to accept the austerity mantra. I have no idea what will happen now as common sense flew out the window long ago in this scenario. I feel sorry for the Greek people as some of their circumstances are truly horrible just now - if the troika had their way, another 300,000 people with mortgage arrears could be out on the street and as there are several people in each of these houses it would be the equivalent of about 3 million people in Britain being lobbed out - which government would let this happen? Meanwhile Ms LaGarde takes her 350,000 salary (tax free of course) and comes up with the idea of making sure no one in Greece can earn more than 700 Euros a month. This week will be pivotal for Greece one way or the other, but it's going to be painful.

[calumhibee1]

Greece was admitted into the Euro after these nice bankers at Goldman Sachs "massaged" their figures, which no one in the EU decided to check up on. Greece has been run by oligarchs for many many years and breaking their stranglehold is going to take some size of gonads and is unlikely to happen. When the brown stuff hit the fan, they should have been left out then, but the good financial people decided that they could save the French and German banks who were horribly exposed then if they could talk Greece into accepting a "rescue" package that they could never afford. Had Tsipras signed the last offer from the troika, then Greece would have had more cuts, but in 2030 their debt to GDP ratio would have been only 125%. This is why Varoufakis and Tsipras told them to bolt. Now the ECB has stopped the ELA it looks like Europe is still wanting to force them to accept the austerity mantra. I have no idea what will happen now as common sense flew out the window long ago in this scenario. I feel sorry for the Greek people as some of their circumstances are truly horrible just now - if the troika had their way, another 300,000 people with mortgage arrears could be out on the street and as there are several people in each of these houses it would be the equivalent of about 3 million people in Britain being lobbed out - which government would let this happen? Meanwhile Ms LaGarde takes her 350,000 salary (tax free of course) and comes up with the idea of making sure no one in Greece can earn more than 700 Euros a month. This week will be pivotal for Greece one way or the other, but it's going to be painful.

Eh...whit?! Surely not...

[HappyAsHellas]

It came from one of their "think tank" style meetings to come up with fresh ideas.

[HappyAsHellas]

One, was when La Lagarde, in a tete a tete with Varoufakis, advocated slashing all Greek salaries to a maximum of 700 euros a month. At around the same time she was arriving for an interview with French Vogue, to talk about her penchant for Chanel, carrying that Hermes handbag.

The above was taken from a Greek paper and the bag referred to is a "Birken" bag, the cheap ones start about £15,000 so if you want to impress your wife/girlfriend I'd recommend a mid price charlie for about £50,000.

[PeeJay]

One, was when La Lagarde, in a tete a tete with Varoufakis, advocated slashing all Greek salaries to a maximum of 700 euros a month.

You sure about this? Are you perhaps mixing up pensions with salaries?

[HappyAsHellas]

You sure about this? Are you perhaps mixing up pensions with salaries?

Trying to find the original article although I'm certain it was as quoted. Will post reference if I can find the bloody thing.

[HappyAsHellas]

The new Greek proposals have been published online at http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals
and if this document is true then I can see no other option than for the resignation of Tsipras. Why he would have anything to do with this is frankly beyond comprehension. There are rumours that Greece is to get a haircut of 70 billion euros and a further 50 billion loan to try and get it out of the mess it is in. Will the European parliaments vote for this, and can they do it in time? I realise I'm jumping the gun a a bit here as nothing is confirmed yet, but what the hell was the referendum all about if all the government is going to do is roll over and accept terms that will leave the people in the mire for years to come?


*The 700 euro wage was apparently a discussion concerning the minimum wage which Syriza wanted to raise to 750 euros a month, and La Garde suggested no more than 700. The reporting out of context was , of course, deliberate.

[(((Fergus)))]

The new Greek proposals have been published online at http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals
and if this document is true then I can see no other option than for the resignation of Tsipras. Why he would have anything to do with this is frankly beyond comprehension. There are rumours that Greece is to get a haircut of 70 billion euros and a further 50 billion loan to try and get it out of the mess it is in. Will the European parliaments vote for this, and can they do it in time? I realise I'm jumping the gun a a bit here as nothing is confirmed yet, but what the hell was the referendum all about if all the government is going to do is roll over and accept terms that will leave the people in the mire for years to come?


*The 700 euro wage was apparently a discussion concerning the minimum wage which Syriza wanted to raise to 750 euros a month, and La Garde suggested no more than 700. The reporting out of context was , of course, deliberate.

What are the alternatives?

[johnbc70]

Story I heard was that Tsipras called the referendum thinking he would lose, then he could resign and say to the people that you have your wish and that Greece would then sign up to the cuts required. Then he is blameless as the people voted for the cuts themselves.

Now that he actually won he has 2 choices which is accept the cuts, which as pointed out are pretty much the same that was on offer weeks ago, or take Greece out the Euro. Not accepting the cuts means the banks will remain closed and the real panic begins. I am sure the Greek pensioners would rather have 50% of something than 100% of nothing.

[RyeSloan]

Story I heard was that Tsipras called the referendum thinking he would lose, then he could resign and say to the people that you have your wish and that Greece would then sign up to the cuts required. Then he is blameless as the people voted for the cuts themselves. Now that he actually won he has 2 choices which is accept the cuts, which as pointed out are pretty much the same that was on offer weeks ago, or take Greece out the Euro. Not accepting the cuts means the banks will remain closed and the real panic begins. I am sure the Greek pensioners would rather have 50% of something than 100% of nothing.

It's still a total mess...yet another effort to extend and pretend. I'm not getting the Greek position here at all.

[PeeJay]

The new Greek proposals have been published online at http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals
and if this document is true then I can see no other option than for the resignation of Tsipras. Why he would have anything to do with this is frankly beyond comprehension. There are rumours that Greece is to get a haircut of 70 billion euros and a further 50 billion loan to try and get it out of the mess it is in. Will the European parliaments vote for this, and can they do it in time? I realise I'm jumping the gun a a bit here as nothing is confirmed yet, but what the hell was the referendum all about if all the government is going to do is roll over and accept terms that will leave the people in the mire for years to come?


*The 700 euro wage was apparently a discussion concerning the minimum wage which Syriza wanted to raise to 750 euros a month, and La Garde suggested no more than 700. The reporting out of context was , of course, deliberate.

Seems Tsipras is chancing his luck to me - he has submitted "credible" proposals - many of which it seems however, are subject to subsequent approval by the Greek government (!) - If he gets the €53 billion loan coupled with reprofiling of the debt, no doubt we will then suddenly see that few, if any, of the proposals submitted at this latest late hour are actually being implemented, so no change there then. He is not "fooling" the Greeks, he is continuing to fool the rest of us, i.e. the other 18 euro members, as they have done all along. We're ALL going to be in the mire for years to come it seems ... except the rich Greeks such as the shipping magnates who aren't paying for any of this for some reason?

[HappyAsHellas]

Greece needs money and it needs it now. The ECB decision to withhold ELA support was a cruel way of forcing Tsipras into a corner and now it looks like he'll bend over and take what's coming. With the election of Syriza I honestly thought that there could be change in Greece. The government wanted it, the Greek people were desperate for it but sadly the powers that be in Europe don't want this left wing upstart trying to upset the gravy train. The pretence will continue until they admit that the Euro is to blame for the troubles of the entire continent, and that day will be a long way off now. I wouldn't like to be in central Athens when the pensioners have in excess of 50% of their payments stopped - it could get very ugly indeed. Golden Dawn anyone?

[PeeJay]

Greece needs money and it needs it now. The ECB decision to withhold ELA support was a cruel way of forcing Tsipras into a corner and now it looks like he'll bend over and take what's coming. With the election of Syriza I honestly thought that there could be change in Greece. The government wanted it, the Greek people were desperate for it but sadly the powers that be in Europe don't want this left wing upstart trying to upset the gravy train. The pretence will continue until they admit that the Euro is to blame for the troubles of the entire continent, and that day will be a long way off now. I wouldn't like to be in central Athens when the pensioners have in excess of 50% of their payments stopped - it could get very ugly indeed. Golden Dawn anyone?

Greece could have had "money" a long time ago - it has to agree to implement structural reforms and show that it is capable and willing to pay back debt: it isn't.

ELA support was properly withheld because of Greece's unwillingness to cooperate ....

Tsipras is a communist/populist who has no interest in the euro or the EU being successful, he also has no "plan" other than to reject everything and let everyone
else pay for the Greeks - for example, he, and his party, have steadfastly refused to tax the rich in his own country or introduce capital controls at an earlier stage.

Syriza promised everyone, everything, but it cannot deliver on anything - it is run by incompetents as has been clearly evidenced since they have been in power!

This is not about upsetting the "gravy train" - the euro members are prepared to help the Greeks: we have already given Greece enormous amounts of money, however clear evidence of Greece's willingness to - for example - start collecting basic things like "tax" so it can contribute to reforming Greece's disastrous economy is necessary before more money can be transferred: seems fair to me.

The euro is certainly not to blame for the continent's problems - Greece's problems, in particular, are caused by the banking and financial institution collapse (Lehman) this forced Greece to borrow excessively to prop up its failing banks. Let's not forget the corruption, nepotism, inefficient tax authorities, its huge military budget (one of the largest in Europe), its expensive pensions system (the most expensive in the EU) its hugely over-manned public sector and so on ...

Seems to me that a country so desperately in need of assistance should be more willing to work with its euro partner states to get out of the hole it made for itself instead of refusing to do anything and calling us "Nazis" and "terrorists" -

Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Cyprus have had similar (if not as bad) problems and they have been successful at getting back on the road to recovery through joint efforts - Greece seems to want to do nothing on its own and let everyone else pick up the tab.

I certainly feel sorry for the Greek people in general, I've been to Greece, I loved it there - I just wish they had better politicians running their country to help them sort out this " mess": the present lot has to go, as they are utterly useless. Greece's problems are all of Greece's making - the EU/eurozone are more than willing to help, but it seems only right to expect honest effort and willingness on the part of Greece to solve the problem: it's not going away.

[johnbc70]

Also let's remember Greece was a county where only 8,500 said they were earning over €90,000 to avoid paying tax, and they got away with it for years.

[HappyAsHellas]

Greece could have had "money" a long time ago - it has to agree to implement structural reforms and show that it is capable and willing to pay back debt: it isn't.

ELA support was properly withheld because of Greece's unwillingness to cooperate ....

Tsipras is a communist/populist who has no interest in the euro or the EU being successful, he also has no "plan" other than to reject everything and let everyone
else pay for the Greeks - for example, he, and his party, have steadfastly refused to tax the rich in his own country or introduce capital controls at an earlier stage.

Syriza promised everyone, everything, but it cannot deliver on anything - it is run by incompetents as has been clearly evidenced since they have been in power!

This is not about upsetting the "gravy train" - the euro members are prepared to help the Greeks: we have already given Greece enormous amounts of money, however clear evidence of Greece's willingness to - for example - start collecting basic things like "tax" so it can contribute to reforming Greece's disastrous economy is necessary before more money can be transferred: seems fair to me.

The euro is certainly not to blame for the continent's problems - Greece's problems, in particular, are caused by the banking and financial institution collapse (Lehman) this forced Greece to borrow excessively to prop up its failing banks. Let's not forget the corruption, nepotism, inefficient tax authorities, its huge military budget (one of the largest in Europe), its expensive pensions system (the most expensive in the EU) its hugely over-manned public sector and so on ...

Seems to me that a country so desperately in need of assistance should be more willing to work with its euro partner states to get out of the hole it made for itself instead of refusing to do anything and calling us "Nazis" and "terrorists" -

Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Cyprus have had similar (if not as bad) problems and they have been successful at getting back on the road to recovery through joint efforts - Greece seems to want to do nothing on its own and let everyone else pick up the tab.

I certainly feel sorry for the Greek people in general, I've been to Greece, I loved it there - I just wish they had better politicians running their country to help them sort out this " mess": the present lot has to go, as they are utterly useless. Greece's problems are all of Greece's making - the EU/eurozone are more than willing to help, but it seems only right to expect honest effort and willingness on the part of Greece to solve the problem: it's not going away.

If by successful you mean they now have more debt and higher unemployment, dwindling pensions etc, then I wouldn't like to see what you call failure.

[HappyAsHellas]

Also let's remember Greece was a county where only 8,500 said they were earning over €90,000 to avoid paying tax, and they got away with it for years.

Have a read at this and tell me what you think........http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/10/blame-the-greeks-5-persistent-myths/

[johnbc70]

Have a read at this and tell me what you think........http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/10/blame-the-greeks-5-persistent-myths/

I feel sorry for the genuine people who will suffer - still does not excuse the mass tax evasion on a national scale. A hairdresser in Greece could have retired at 50 on a very generous pension as it was classed as a 'dangerous profession' as well as over 500 types of jobs classed the same like a TV presenter.

It's the old leaders of the country that should shoulder the blame.

[marinello59]

Also let's remember Greece was a county where only 8,500 said they were earning over €90,000 to avoid paying tax, and they got away with it for years.

So the financial problems in this country were all the fault of the bankers and the general population was entirely innocent. Unlike Greece where they only have themselves to blame?

[HappyAsHellas]

Every salaried worker in Greece pays their taxes - it's unavoidable as it is here. The major tax evasion is amongst the very rich, shipping, media owners etc. Part of the latest package concerns going after them, and to be fair Syriza have actually taken people on the infamous LaGarde list to court about this, something the previous government did everything in their power to avoid. This whole thing is about toeing the party line - the European line that is where austerity is king. The fact that it has never been successful anywhere is of course irrelevant.
If the Europeans give them the write down and the further 50 billion loan then they will have cost themselves infinitely more than had they accepted the proposals of Varoufakis. This is where it really annoys me - the whole debt is less than 2% of Europes GDP but they told the Greeks where to go because of a shortfall of 2 billion euros in their plan. This means it is not about money, but a democratically elected government being ordered how to run their own country.

[lord bunberry]

I feel sorry for the genuine people who will suffer - still does not excuse the mass tax evasion on a national scale. A hairdresser in Greece could have retired at 50 on a very generous pension as it was classed as a 'dangerous profession' as well as over 500 types of jobs classed the same like a TV presenter.

It's the old leaders of the country that should shoulder the blame.

The old leaders are long gone and the normal working class people face having their lives ruined through no fault of their own.
Greece should leave the eurozone and rebuild on their own. Whatever happens now the Greek people will suffer, they shouldn't suffer paying for previous mistakes, they should take the pain rebuilding their country for themselves.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I really don't know what to make of the Greece situation.
The UK(never liked saying Britain) is due/lost £1b . They were a basket case before joining the Euro, pensions, retirement, working hours. Nice life catered for in part by us. That said, I don't want to see a European having to rely on humanitarian aid.

[HappyAsHellas]

The old leaders are long gone and the normal working class people face having their lives ruined through no fault of their own.
Greece should leave the eurozone and rebuild on their own. Whatever happens now the Greek people will suffer, they shouldn't suffer paying for previous mistakes, they should take the pain rebuilding their country for themselves.

The old guard are very much still there - decades of clientism doesn't go away overnight, and ND have their people ready to step back in should the need arise. The Greek people voted no to give hope to Syriza that they can change things. Sadly the European leaders don't want change.

[HappyAsHellas]

I really don't know what to make of the Greece situation.
The UK(never liked saying Britain) is due/lost £1b . They were a basket case before joining the Euro, pensions, retirement, working hours. Nice life catered for in part by us. That said, I don't want to see a European having to rely on humanitarian aid.

You do know that Greeks work the longest hours in Europe?
You do know that they have been screwed over again and again by foreign people, like Britain for example?

[johnbc70]

The old leaders are long gone and the normal working class people face having their lives ruined through no fault of their own.
Greece should leave the eurozone and rebuild on their own. Whatever happens now the Greek people will suffer, they shouldn't suffer paying for previous mistakes, they should take the pain rebuilding their country for themselves.

You mean just how we all felt sorry for the Rangers fans when the previous owners ran the club into the ground with massive debt's. Did we all say it was not the fans fault so they should not suffer as they had nothing to do with it? We should have just let them forget about the debt and carry on as normal.

Sorry but someone needs to take responsibility for the mess and its the Greek people, its unfortunate but that's how things work.

[lord bunberry]

The old guard are very much still there - decades of clientism doesn't go away overnight, and ND have their people ready to step back in should the need arise. The Greek people voted no to give hope to Syriza that they can change things. Sadly the European leaders don't want change.

They don't want change, but if the Greek people keep standing up for themselves then change will happen. The Euro has been an expensive failure and the sooner that is realised the better.
How can interest rates be set on a Europe wide basis when you have countries struggling and countries thriving without a political union to go with it. It's complete madness and its causing more pain than good.

[HappyAsHellas]

Seriously? You're equating a Scottish football team with the plight of 11 million people - Wow.

[HappyAsHellas]

They don't want change, but if the Greek people keep standing up for themselves then change will happen. The Euro has been an expensive failure and the sooner that is realised the better.
How can interest rates be set on a Europe wide basis when you have countries struggling and countries thriving without a political union to go with it. It's complete madness and its causing more pain than good.

It's plain for anyone with an ounce of sense to see, and yet somehow conveniently ignored by the people who run the show. Trying to marry the economic might of Germany with the southern European states is nothing short of madness.

[johnbc70]

You do know that Greeks work the longest hours in Europe?
You do know that they have been screwed over again and again by foreign people, like Britain for example?

They also dodged estimated tax of around £28BN in 2009 - about a third of the Greek deficit that year.

[johnbc70]

Seriously? You're equating a Scottish football team with the plight of 11 million people - Wow.

No it's an analogy. Look it up.

[lord bunberry]

It's plain for anyone with an ounce of sense to see, and yet somehow conveniently ignored by the people who run the show. Trying to marry the economic might of Germany with the southern European states is nothing short of madness.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Greek governments have left their people high and dry, but it's just wrong to expect the Greek people to pay for the mess that they've been left in. If the EU is serious about bringing together Europe then they have to treat Europe as a whole. You can't have one country being a world powerhouse whilst another struggles. Bail them out or let them go.

[stoneyburn hibs]

You do know that Greeks work the longest hours in Europe?
You do know that they have been screwed over again and again by foreign people, like Britain for example?

No I didn't know that they work the longest hours in Europe, I also don't believe it. How have they been screwed? And screwed by the UK ?

[HappyAsHellas]

They also dodged estimated tax of around £28BN in 2009 - about a third of the Greek deficit that year.

So you think the average Greek worker donated what to this amount? The Greek ship owners have always said they would just establish their business in a country of convenience if they actually went after them. To date no one has called their bluff. Let's just blame it on the average Joe.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The simple fact is that the Euro doesn't and will never work, I forget(misty eyed between blue and red) which Westminster government that I have to thank for us not being a part of it.

Is it too simplistic to say that it's like the EPL propping up the SPL ?

[HappyAsHellas]

No I didn't know that they work the longest hours in Europe, I also don't believe it. How have they been screwed? And screwed by the UK ?

Tourism is one of the biggest earners for Greeks. Working 12 to 18 hour days, 7 days a week, is quite common during the summer season (April to October) During this period they have to try and earn enough money to see them through the winter.

Winston Churchill said "We shall not say the Greeks fight like heroes, we shall say that heroes fight like Greeks". This was him doffing his cap to the resistance movement. When the war ended the British tanks and troops rolled into Syntagma Square (where all the demos are held) and shot these same "heroes". They then put the nazi collaborators in charge because the resistance fighters were predominantly communist/left wing. This led to the civil war in which we backed the nationalists (nazi's) and subsequently led to the defeat of the communists who then kidnapped tens of thousands of children and forced them over the borders into Albania, Bulgaria etc, where they would be raised with communist idealism and returned to Greece to continue the struggle when they were of adult age. Oh, and we really kicked up a stink when the junta siezed power in the seventies.

[HappyAsHellas]

The simple fact is that the Euro doesn't and will never work, I forget(misty eyed between blue and red) which Westminster government that I have to thank for us not being a part of it.

Is it too simplistic to say that it's like the EPL propping up the SPL ?

I think it was a continuation from Major to Blair with the 3 main attributes the euro had to attain before Britain would join. This was done in the full knowledge that there was never any danger of the euro succeeding. Your 2nd bit is too simplistic to deal with politically underhand and illegal moves, blackmail etc etc, but I understand where you're coming from.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Tourism is one of the biggest earners for Greeks. Working 12 to 18 hour days, 7 days a week, is quite common during the summer season (April to October) During this period they have to try and earn enough money to see them through the winter.

Winston Churchill said "We shall not say the Greeks fight like heroes, we shall say that heroes fight like Greeks". This was him doffing his cap to the resistance movement. When the war ended the British tanks and troops rolled into Syntagma Square (where all the demos are held) and shot these same "heroes". They then put the nazi collaborators in charge because the resistance fighters were predominantly communist/left wing. This led to the civil war in which we backed the nationalists (nazi's) and subsequently led to the defeat of the communists who then kidnapped tens of thousands of children and forced them over the borders into Albania, Bulgaria etc, where they would be raised with communist idealism and returned to Greece to continue the struggle when they were of adult age. Oh, and we really kicked up a stink when the junta siezed power in the seventies.

Ok let's say everybody in Greece works for the tourist industry, are they eating olives in the months between April and October ? The UK also works the hardest in Europe, between April and October the holiday reps do a fine job in Greece and other countries. Sorry if the Greeks were the hardest working in Europe then the country wouldn't have been in recession for the last 6 years.

[HappyAsHellas]

There are certain points of your arguement that I understand, but what I don't understand is your refusal to believe that Greeks work the longest hours in Europe. Here is an entirely different link in case you never read (or believed) the last one.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/03/13/contrary-to-what-most-people-think-greeks-work-the-longest-hours-in-europe-infographic/

[johnbc70]

So you think the average Greek worker donated what to this amount? The Greek ship owners have always said they would just establish their business in a country of convenience if they actually went after them. To date no one has called their bluff. Let's just blame it on the average Joe.

Look at the Athens subway system for example, used by your average Joe, cost £1.5BN paid for by the EU(that's us) and it works on an honesty system where you need to validate your ticket. Guess what average Joe does? Never validates it so its effectively free while the cleaners who were paid up to €60,000 continue cleaning the brand new trains.

I agree the mega rich were probably the majority but everyone needs to take personal responsibility as well as they had it good for many years.

[PeeJay]

If by successful you mean they now have more debt and higher unemployment, dwindling pensions etc, then I wouldn't like to see what you call failure.

Interesting this is the only point you pick up on, and you manage to get it wrong: What you claim, is clearly not what I said: they are successfully back on the road to recovery, these countries have all exited the bailout programs: this is not the same as saying everything is now hunky-dory though. I'm well aware of the problems you refer to in Spain, etc. they won't be going away for a while either. At least they are rolling up their sleeves and trying to tackle the problems - unlike, it has to be said, those responsible in Greece ...

[RyeSloan]

Wow we seem to have a few Merkelites on this thread...which can be summed up as "they did it to themselves so now they need to suffer the consequences"

Yet when you consider the fact that Greece is just another example of the eurozone failing and its fundamental flaws that's pretty hard to actually believe in.

More grinding austerity to save a political project is not the answer...what I'm most disappointed in is that Tsipras has went to such lengths to show up the failings of the last IMF backed lunacy only to then sign up to more at the 11th hour...what has been the point of it all?

[HappyAsHellas]

Look at the Athens subway system for example, used by your average Joe, cost £1.5BN paid for by the EU(that's us) and it works on an honesty system where you need to validate your ticket. Guess what average Joe does? Never validates it so its effectively free while the cleaners who were paid up to €60,000 continue cleaning the brand new trains.

I agree the mega rich were probably the majority but everyone needs to take personal responsibility as well as they had it good for many years.

Athens subway loses about 30 million per year due to fare dodgers which is about a third of what London loses. As for cleaners earning 60,000 per year a quick search would seem to dispute this:

According to figures published by Kathimerini, the average wage for metro workers last year was about 2,500 euros per month gross, excluding overtime pay. Under the new pay scale, metro employees will earn an average of 2,038 euros per month – a reduction of almost 20 percent. Unions might argue that this figure is distorted by some very high wages, such as those that are reportedly earned by train drivers, but they should also be upfront about their part in allowing this distortion to develop.

[HappyAsHellas]

Interesting this is the only point you pick up on, and you manage to get it wrong: What you claim, is clearly not what I said: they are successfully back on the road to recovery, these countries have all exited the bailout programs: this is not the same as saying everything is now hunky-dory though. I'm well aware of the problems you refer to in Spain, etc. they won't be going away for a while either. At least they are rolling up their sleeves and trying to tackle the problems - unlike, it has to be said, those responsible in Greece ...

Greece wants to pay back the borrowed money but it cannot afford to - the terms of the banks rescue package, commonly known as the bailout ensure this. Varoufakis made this very plain when looking at the repayment figures.

Syriza have been in power for a limited time and if you expect them to turn round the political system in a short time it wont happen, but let's give them time before calling them debt dodging commies.

Greece's economy was supposed to shrink by 5% according to the creditors but it shrank by 25% which means the people handing out the money have absolutely no idea what they are doing - seems fair to me.

Greece does need reforms, but it needs investment to stimulate the growth necessary to carry out the reforms. All the austerity measures have failed miserably. Until the creditors accept this, nothing can change.

Name calling doesn't help, but when your banks are forcibly closed down in what many saw as an illegal move (and now the ECB is being taken to court over this) then it is in fact economic terrorism - do what we say or we will ruin you.

As mentioned before Portugal and the rest of them now have higher debt than before but as long as we keep saying the same old mantra about austerity working some people will believe it. I don't as it's been a bloody disaster for everyone apart from the German banks who shifted their holdings to the German taxpayer whilst pointing at the lazy Greeks - and the Germans swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

[PeeJay]

Greece wants to pay back the borrowed money but it cannot afford to - the terms of the banks rescue package, commonly known as the bailout ensure this. Varoufakis made this very plain when looking at the repayment figures.

Syriza have been in power for a limited time and if you expect them to turn round the political system in a short time it wont happen, but let's give them time before calling them debt dodging commies.

Greece's economy was supposed to shrink by 5% according to the creditors but it shrank by 25% which means the people handing out the money have absolutely no idea what they are doing - seems fair to me.

Greece does need reforms, but it needs investment to stimulate the growth necessary to carry out the reforms. All the austerity measures have failed miserably. Until the creditors accept this, nothing can change.

Name calling doesn't help, but when your banks are forcibly closed down in what many saw as an illegal move (and now the ECB is being taken to court over this) then it is in fact economic terrorism - do what we say or we will ruin you.

As mentioned before Portugal and the rest of them now have higher debt than before but as long as we keep saying the same old mantra about austerity working some people will believe it. I don't as it's been a bloody disaster for everyone apart from the German banks who shifted their holdings to the German taxpayer whilst pointing at the lazy Greeks - and the Germans swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

Seems to me that Greece doesn't want to pay back the debt: it claims it can't, it could eventually (reprofiling with a longer period involved?), but it wants another haircut, it wants taxpayers in other countries to pay its debt: why should we?

Varoufakis was a waster and totally incompetent minister (his Guardian interview today was ludicrous) as is the entire Syriza party - personally, I believe even the crooks in charge before would long since have reached some sort of agreement to help the country, unlike the present incumbents. I don't expect Syrizia to turn it around, believe me! The debt dodging in Greece is obviously not limited to the "commies" - it never was.

The austerity measures are tough, no arguments there, but they are tough everywhere - isn't it the same in the UK? The investment is obviously faltering badly as the Greeks have shown themselves to be untrustworthy partners, i.e. take the money, slow everything down as much as possible and do not introduce any structural reforms - the latest proposed reforms have mostly been made subject to subsequent government verification, that doesn't exactly help to rebuild the lost goodwill or trust does it?

The banks were not the victims of terrorism as you and V. claim, they were only still open because the "terrorists" - as the countries/institutions assisting Greece are known - were giving them the money in the first place, you do realise that don't you?

As to this "austerity myth" as you call it: nobody believes it is austerity alone that will solve any problems, it is however part of the package - Ireland, Portugal, Spain are still a long way from being really out of any serious problems - they had austerity measures and indeed they still do (as does the UK, I believe) BUT they have started to implement structural reforms and what is more important, they have "functioning" systems that can actually get them up and "limping along" - Greece does not seem to have the willingness or the capability to do so.

There are lots of different opinions on this problem here in Germany - the more left you get the more it seems you are on the side of the version whereby the Greeks are victims only, but that has nothing to do with common sense, of course, it's mainly sheer bloodymindedness on their parts - one of the former socialist icons even proposed today (Sat.) us all returning to the DMark etc. :crazy:

By the way, I don't think "the Greeks" are generally lazy, nor do most Germans I know, I think many work hard, for low wages/salaries - I think the people in charge of the country have been corrupt and incompetent for decades: they lied and cheated their way into the eurozone and now they are continuing to lie and cheat, it seems. Still, I sympathise greatly with the man/woman in the street and would prefer to see a solution arrived at where Greece stays in the EU, the eurozone and gets back onto its feet one day, but it won't be tomorrow or even the day after: this is a long term thing. Greece also needs to ditch its endless moaning about honour and pride and start acting pragmatically - the eurozone is more than willing to help, it's not a one-way deal though.

By the way, just because people are in a position to hand out lots of money does not necessarily mean they have the foggiest idea of what they are doing: this is what was realized when the crisis kicked-in back in 2008 thanks to all those clever bankers and financial institutions ... :greengrin

I guess our view on this are diametrically opposed, but cheers for your replies anyway ...

[HappyAsHellas]

Seems to me that Greece doesn't want to pay back the debt: it claims it can't, it could eventually (reprofiling with a longer period involved?), but it wants another haircut, it wants taxpayers in other countries to pay its debt: why should we?

The agreement will see debt to GDP ratio of 125% in 2030 if Greece sustains a surplus for the next 15 years in a row. everyone knows that will never happen, but they may extend and pretend again.

Varoufakis was a waster and totally incompetent minister (his Guardian interview today was ludicrous) as is the entire Syriza party - personally, I believe even the crooks in charge before would long since have reached some sort of agreement to help the country, unlike the present incumbents. I don't expect Syrizia to turn it around, believe me! The debt dodging in Greece is obviously not limited to the "commies" - it never was.

What part of the interview was ludicrous? The policy has failed miserably so why not try something different? why not drag Mario Draghi to court for cooking the books at Goldman Sachs and stopping the ELA as he's now in charge of the ECB.

The austerity measures are tough, no arguments there, but they are tough everywhere - isn't it the same in the UK? The investment is obviously faltering badly as the Greeks have shown themselves to be untrustworthy partners, i.e. take the money, slow everything down as much as possible and do not introduce any structural reforms - the latest proposed reforms have mostly been made subject to subsequent government verification, that doesn't exactly help to rebuild the lost goodwill or trust does it?

The UK hasn't seen pay cuts of 40%, 50% unemployment in youth and now pensions to be cut by up to 55%. Comparing the two is futlie in the extreme. No one has trusted the Greek governments in the past, and with good reason. Perhaps Syriza can change this though.

The banks were not the victims of terrorism as you and V. claim, they were only still open because the "terrorists" - as the countries/institutions assisting Greece are known - were giving them the money in the first place, you do realise that don't you?

Yes I realise it - the banks were going to be crippled so put their potential losses onto the dear taxpayer. The primary function of the ELA is of course to keep banks solvent, but this rule was circumnavigated by that nice Mr Draghi and friends.

As to this "austerity myth" as you call it: nobody believes it is austerity alone that will solve any problems, it is however part of the package - Ireland, Portugal, Spain are still a long way from being really out of any serious problems - they had austerity measures and indeed they still do (as does the UK, I believe) BUT they have started to implement structural reforms and what is more important, they have "functioning" systems that can actually get them up and "limping along" - Greece does not seem to have the willingness or the capability to do so.

Yep, increasing your debt is the way forward - ask people in Ireland how rosy it is over there at present - not quite as happy a land as the pro austerity people would have you believe.

There are lots of different opinions on this problem here in Germany - the more left you get the more it seems you are on the side of the version whereby the Greeks are victims only, but that has nothing to do with common sense, of course, it's mainly sheer bloodymindedness on their parts - one of the former socialist icons even proposed today (Sat.) us all returning to the DMark etc. :crazy:

The return to the Dmark would be great for all other euro states as they cannot compete with Germany.

By the way, I don't think "the Greeks" are generally lazy, nor do most Germans I know, I think many work hard, for low wages/salaries - I think the people in charge of the country have been corrupt and incompetent for decades: they lied and cheated their way into the eurozone and now they are continuing to lie and cheat, it seems. Still, I sympathise greatly with the man/woman in the street and would prefer to see a solution arrived at where Greece stays in the EU, the eurozone and gets back onto its feet one day, but it won't be tomorrow or even the day after: this is a long term thing. Greece also needs to ditch its endless moaning about honour and pride and start acting pragmatically - the eurozone is more than willing to help, it's not a one-way deal though.

The main man at the ECB helped them in and is now trying to wring blood from a stone - Greece's former political masters were willing to sign anything to get on the euro gravy train with access to untold billions in loans. The problem is it is a one way deal as the troika wont budge. The schoolyard bullies have the new kid in the corner and he's not getting off lightly - guaranteed

By the way, just because people are in a position to hand out lots of money does not necessarily mean they have the foggiest idea of what they are doing: this is what was realized when the crisis kicked-in back in 2008 thanks to all those clever bankers and financial institutions ... :greengrin

This kleptocracy we find ourselves living in now is living proof of the true power of these people.

I guess our view on this are diametrically opposed, but cheers for your replies anyway ...

Been nice talking........

[Hibbyradge]

The USA can't and won't pay back its debt.

[RyeSloan]

The USA can't and won't pay back its debt.

Indeed...but is (currently at least) able to pay the interest on it.

It's a good point tho, the worlds debt can never be repaid yet it carries on as if it can...a true Ponzi scheme! Amazingly though central banks have heaped more money on the bonfire, debt levels rise and yields go down! It's a mad world we live in where more indebted nations have become the lower the interest rate they have paid.

At some point it has to end in tears...I just hope I'm not around to see it!

[hibsbollah]

So it's over. The Greeks are sent home with a nice package of austerity for their voters, who have just voted twice for the exact opposite. The lesson is that democracy means nothing against the power of the market.

The implications of this, for the euro project but also for the future of representative democracy in Greece, are going to be very serious.

[Beefster]

The lesson is that democracy means nothing against the power of the market.

I thought the lesson was that the Greek government have horrendously mismanaged the entire saga? They played chicken with the EU and others and lost.

[johnbc70]

The lesson is pay back what you owe.

[bigwheel]

The lesson is pay back what you owe.


It's much more complex than that...To argue that Greece are trying to simply get out of paying their debt obligations is inaccurate and quite unfair.

There is no doubt that Greece is one of the architects of the situation it is in…recent governments have been appalling at managing the countries finances

It is impossible though to effectively manage your finances when your economy is in complete downward spiral , and the cuts placed upon it by the power brokers in the EU has meant that their economy is in a slump unseen in a Euro country – ever.

These changes are coming on the back of the fact that the strategy to control the Greek situation from the EU, has catastrophically failed . As a result Greece is now being asked to take cuts at a level which is unimaginable . They are in effect being held to ransom, and if they don’t meet these extreme demands, they will then be stripped of control over critical aspects of economic policy.

It's a terrible position to put a country into and is completely divergent from what the EU was supposed to stand for..

You can feel free to have no sympathy for the ruling elite of Greece..the Greek people do deserve our sympathy, however. They face unprecedented economic hardship, with no light at the end of the tunnel.

If Britain were in the Eurozone, we would be having to slash public spending by massively more than it is currently doing. Would we be saying – well , we got what is coming to us??

The people of Greece deserve us to care...it could be anyone this is happening to

[hibsbollah]

The lesson is pay back what you owe.

Ludicrously simplistic comeback I'm afraid. Debt and credit is the fuel of capitalism. A political decision is made as to when you pay back what you owe; some countries get slack, and some, like Greece, clearly don't. As has been mentioned already the USA has been in the Red to the international community for perpetuity, Germany's debt was generously restructured postwar for political imperatives. The political imperative now is to show the world Austerity is the only game in town.

[hibsbollah]

I thought the lesson was that the Greek government have horrendously mismanaged the entire saga? They played chicken with the EU and others and lost.

i disagree. Tsipras had no choice throughout the negotiations. He followed his democratic mandate from the Greek people and stuck to his manifesto early doors, and then walked away a Loser when it became clear the cards were stacked against him.

[RyeSloan]

i disagree. Tsipras had no choice throughout the negotiations. He followed his democratic mandate from the Greek people and stuck to his manifesto early doors, and then walked away a Loser when it became clear the cards were stacked against him.

To a degree but he should have literally walked away rather than agree to this 'deal'. He was given a mandate to say No yet he returned to the table and said Yes.

I totally get he was given little option from the troika yet he should have resigned on the principle rather than agree to the demands.

[johnbc70]

Ludicrously simplistic comeback I'm afraid. Debt and credit is the fuel of capitalism. A political decision is made as to when you pay back what you owe; some countries get slack, and some, like Greece, clearly don't. As has been mentioned already the USA has been in the Red to the international community for perpetuity, Germany's debt was generously restructured postwar for political imperatives. The political imperative now is to show the world Austerity is the only game in town.

I admire all these principals and how all countries should be treated the same etc but the world does not work like that. USA and Germany can do what they do because they can, it might not be fair but that's the reality as we can clearly see. Greece is neither a USA or a Germany so it will not be afforded the same benefits as these countries, again that is the reality.

In a perfect world everything would be fair and countries and people treated equally, but again that's not reality. Just trying to bring a dose of realism to this and yes it may be more complex that what I am making out but I like to keep things simple.

[PeeJay]

Ludicrously simplistic comeback I'm afraid. Debt and credit is the fuel of capitalism. A political decision is made as to when you pay back what you owe; some countries get slack, and some, like Greece, clearly don't. As has been mentioned already the USA has been in the Red to the international community for perpetuity, Germany's debt was generously restructured postwar for political imperatives. The political imperative now is to show the world Austerity is the only game in town.

Isn't the point at issue here - and hasn't it always been - Greece's stubborn refusal to implement structural reforms to help get the country back on track and recovery through investment and subsequent growth. This could all have been sorted out and the country moving along months, even years ago. Instead, we have had Greece promising one thing and then not doing it. Is that a democratically acceptable way to deal with people/countries/institutions attempting to help you by bailing you out? We can't just give them money without any reforms?

Spain, Portugal and Eire made the effort to implement structural reforms and mend their ways, things are slowly "improving" - Greece hasn't or won't, either through sheer incompetence or for reasons of "honour" or more recently utterly misguided idealogical reasons, or indeed a combination thereof.

Any reprofiling of Greek debt has to be based on the belief that Greece will hold true to what it says and agrees to do ... the debt can, of course be restructured, but Greece has to play fair with the countries helping out, there is no quick fix involved here.

BTW - Germany's debt after WWII hardly bears comparison with this particular situation, still any stick to beat the Germans with, I guess is a good one for some, seems after the idiocy of the referendum, we now have some twitter nonsense called "BoycottGermany" gaining popularity ... who do they think they are getting most of the money from?

BTBTW - You sure your sign-off isn't ludicrously simplistic? :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

To a degree but he should have literally walked away rather than agree to this 'deal'. He was given a mandate to say No yet he returned to the table and said Yes.

I totally get he was given little option from the troika yet he should have resigned on the principle rather than agree to the demands.

I'm backtracking in a big way here but I think I agree with you. I would have loved it if he'd 'stuck it to The Man', returned to Greece and dealt with the ramifications with his people in a 'no one likes us we don't care', Blitz spirit. But I'm not Greek and it's easy for me to say that:greengrin Essentially as long as the Greeks keep producing and consuming, basic economic activity should generate growth even without access to global capital. It's the access to raw materials that would have been a problem. If they had ridden out the storm and emerged with an economy intact as well as a new sense of democratic legitimacy, it would have shown everyone there is an alternative to the Brussels project.

but hey ho, that ship has sailed.

[hibsbollah]

Isn't the point at issue here - and hasn't it always been - Greece's stubborn refusal to implement structural reforms to help get the country back on track and recovery through investment and subsequent growth. This could all have been sorted out and the country moving along months, even years ago. Instead, we have had Greece promising one thing and then not doing it. Is that a democratically acceptable way to deal with people/countries/institutions attempting to help you by bailing you out? We can't just give them money without any reforms?

Spain, Portugal and Eire made the effort to implement structural reforms and mend their ways, things are slowly "improving" - Greece hasn't or won't, either through sheer incompetence or for reasons of "honour" or more recently utterly misguided idealogical reasons, or indeed a combination thereof.

Any reprofiling of Greek debt has to be based on the belief that Greece will hold true to what it says and agrees to do ... the debt can, of course be restructured, but Greece has to play fair with the countries helping out, there is no quick fix involved here.

BTW - Germany's debt after WWII hardly bears comparison with this particular situation, still any stick to beat the Germans with, I guess is a good one for some, seems after the idiocy of the referendum, we now have some twitter nonsense called "BoycottGermany" gaining popularity ... who do they think they are getting most of the money from?

BTBTW - You sure your sign-off isn't ludicrously simplistic? :greengrin

you've said most of that already and your points have been responded to already, so I won't address that. My final point? Based on recent developments, How can you argue against it? What other message is there to take from what's happened? In the new Europe, it is not permitted to deviate from the orthodoxy of austerity.

[HiBremian]

Isn't the point at issue here - and hasn't it always been - Greece's stubborn refusal to implement structural reforms to help get the country back on track and recovery through investment and subsequent growth. This could all have been sorted out and the country moving along months, even years ago. Instead, we have had Greece promising one thing and then not doing it. Is that a democratically acceptable way to deal with people/countries/institutions attempting to help you by bailing you out? We can't just give them money without any reforms?

Spain, Portugal and Eire made the effort to implement structural reforms and mend their ways, things are slowly "improving" - Greece hasn't or won't, either through sheer incompetence or for reasons of "honour" or more recently utterly misguided idealogical reasons, or indeed a combination thereof.

Any reprofiling of Greek debt has to be based on the belief that Greece will hold true to what it says and agrees to do ... the debt can, of course be restructured, but Greece has to play fair with the countries helping out, there is no quick fix involved here.

BTW - Germany's debt after WWII hardly bears comparison with this particular situation, still any stick to beat the Germans with, I guess is a good one for some, seems after the idiocy of the referendum, we now have some twitter nonsense called "BoycottGermany" gaining popularity ... who do they think they are getting most of the money from?

BTBTW - You sure your sign-off isn't ludicrously simplistic? :greengrin

Not Greece's stubborn refusal, but the EU's stubborn TINA economic ideology. The 2010 package was widely dismissed by economists, including even those working for the IMF, as economically illiterate and that it would be impossible for economic growth to result. At the time Merkel claimed these views did not exist (source: tonight's "Report Mainz".). This week's package is no different. Any economist with a brain knows that it will not deliver economic growth but instead impoverish further the Greek economy and people. But hey, might is right these days, and who gives a toss about intelligence. The creditors want their interest and their capital back. Anything else is just hot air.


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[RyeSloan]

Not Greece's stubborn refusal, but the EU's stubborn TINA economic ideology. The 2010 package was widely dismissed by economists, including even those working for the IMF, as economically illiterate and that it would be impossible for economic growth to result. At the time Merkel claimed these views did not exist (source: tonight's "Report Mainz".). This week's package is no different. Any economist with a brain knows that it will not deliver economic growth but instead impoverish further the Greek economy and people. But hey, might is right these days, and who gives a toss about intelligence. The creditors want their interest and their capital back. Anything else is just hot air. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

With the final lunacy being that the creditors really won't get their interest and capital back anyway! Lend them more to pay the debt.....then watch them be slowly crushed by the enlarged debt and interest...

In simple terms it's like a person using a credit card to pay the interest in another credit card..repeat often enough and no matter what belt tightening you do the debt overwhelms your ability to pay..would anybody suggest the sensible thing to do is then get another credit card?

I get the fact that Greece 'should have done more' etc but the fallacy here is not the Greek tax regime or pension commitments but the Euro itself.

[PeeJay]

Not Greece's stubborn refusal, but the EU's stubborn TINA economic ideology. The 2010 package was widely dismissed by economists, including even those working for the IMF, as economically illiterate and that it would be impossible for economic growth to result. At the time Merkel claimed these views did not exist (source: tonight's "Report Mainz".). This week's package is no different. Any economist with a brain knows that it will not deliver economic growth but instead impoverish further the Greek economy and people. But hey, might is right these days, and who gives a toss about intelligence. The creditors want their interest and their capital back. Anything else is just hot air.


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In 2014, under Samaras, Greece had a primary surplus and growth ...

[PeeJay]

you've said most of that already and your points have been responded to already, so I won't address that. My final point? Based on recent developments, How can you argue against it? What other message is there to take from what's happened? In the new Europe, it is not permitted to deviate from the orthodoxy of austerity.

I don't think it is just about austerity as the left keeps repeating ad infinitum, but it's certainly part of the equation: I don't see how it can't be - Greece itself could help alleviate it by taking certain action ...

[HiBremian]

In 2014, under Samaras, Greece had a primary surplus and growth ...

Ah yes, the contested figures....

http://www.globalizedblog.com/2015/07/imf-greece-update-zero-2014-primary.html

I think we all agree that economic growth is the key. The question is how that can be achieved. My problem with the neo-liberal stance is it assumes that everything state is bad and everything private is good. Historically nonsense and ideologically driven. "Reforms" need to be focussed on growth, not ideology.

[HappyAsHellas]

Many people seem to miss the main point in this discussion - the fact that Greece only recieved 10% of the original bailout money. The 90%, yes 90% went to the (predominantly) German banks as they were going to be one of the biggest losers when it all went belly up. Varoufakis and nearly every prominent economist in the world has said it was unfeasable for Greece to pay the money back, so we are now in the farcical position where they are putting more austerity onto the Greek people thus ensuring the economy will shrink further with absolutely no chance of them paying the money back. Now the IMF has weighed in with a scathing report which says there is no way this plan can succeed and the euro negotiators knew about this report before the deal was signed. This now leaves Tsipras in a very unenviable position trying to get the bill through parliament - maybe just what the euro suits wanted all along - we didn't push him guv, he fell all by himself.
Not all is as bleak as it may seem though, thanks to the Institute for growth who will oversee the selling of the Greek assets as and when the time comes. And who or what is this institute I hear you ask? It's headed by Draghi (figure massager from Goldaman Sachs who got Greece into the euro) and a certain Herr Schaubel (sp) who was doing the financial waterboarding during the negotiations. You really couldn't make it up. The banks are rescued by the Greek taxpayer (the lazy tax dodging people) and then pass all future losses to the German tax payer while amassing nice profits for themselves. And who do the people bicker about? These bankers with their unlimited power? no - don't be silly, let's blame it on the Greek people for not paying their dues.