Scotland Office accused of new 'Frenchgate' cover-up

[Hibbyradge]

We're not going to tell you who leaked/invented this because of "the need to protect "the safety of individual public servants, who might be put at risk either physically and or mental health (sic) of an individual."

What an excuse! (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/scotland-office-accused-of-new-frenchgate-cover-up.130283302?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert)

[Hibrandenburg]

Or reading through the bull****, "Revealing the source of the leak could lead to putting the guilty party involved in an uncomfortable position and therefore needs to be kept secret at all costs".

[Jack]

To be fair the name of the public servant who leaked this is neither here nor there, unless it was done without authorisation.

If it was done without authorisation then I think it comes under the civil service code and could and IMO, should lead to dismissal.

If it was done with political authorisation then the politician should be held to account.

[ronaldo7]

Oh well, the public purse has been raided by the Lying Lib Dem Alistair Carmichael, he was let off on a technicality but found to have told many lies to try and cover for himself.

A proven Liar is Mr Carmichael, and it's good to see the judges making him pay for his own costs.

Well done to the Orkney 4 for taking on such a mendacious, Lying trougher. :aok:

[Eyrie]

Oh well, the public purse has been raided by the Lying Lib Dem Alistair Carmichael, he was let off on a technicality but found to have told many lies to try and cover for himself.

A proven Liar is Mr Carmichael, and it's good to see the judges making him pay for his own costs.

Well done to the Orkney 4 for taking on such a mendacious, Lying trougher. :aok:

I wish them better luck in their next case against Salmond and his legal advice about the EU.

[ronaldo7]

I wish them better luck in their next case against Salmond and his legal advice about the EU.

When is that one up then? Do tell.:greengrin

[Eyrie]

When is that one up then? Do tell.:greengrin

That's precisely my point. Salmond is every bit the "proven Liar" and "mendacious, Lying trougher" but Carmichael was sued only because the Orkney 4 don't like his politics. In a perfect world both Salmond and Carmichael would have had to resign, but in the real world they are supported and attacked according to party allegiance.

[ronaldo7]

That's precisely my point. Salmond is every bit the "proven Liar" and "mendacious, Lying trougher" but Carmichael was sued only because the Orkney 4 don't like his politics. In a perfect world both Salmond and Carmichael would have had to resign, but in the real world they are supported and attacked according to party allegiance.

Why don't you crack on with a crowdfunding appeal to take Salmond to court then. If you feel as strongly as the Orkney four did, I'm sure you'd get some support.

They took Carmichael to court because he lied, and he was supposed to be representing them. They didn't like that, and did something about it. Maybe they'd not found Hibs.net yet.

[AndyM_1875]

That's precisely my point. Salmond is every bit the "proven Liar" and "mendacious, Lying trougher" but Carmichael was sued only because the Orkney 4 don't like his politics. In a perfect world both Salmond and Carmichael would have had to resign, but in the real world they are supported and attacked according to party allegiance.

Carmichael is a liar, no doubts. But response to these events always depends on the circumstances. Are Carmichael's lies worse than those of Tory MP Lucy Allan? Probably not. She told a lie about a constituent and was outed as a liar. Carmichael lied about Nicola Sturgeon and outed himself after the election. Was one worse? Not in my view.
IMHO both should have faced by-elections.

I feel though that the Orkney 4 were used quite cynically by Lesley Riddoch and other SNP minded hacks to push their own agendas by making a lot of noise and pushing for the crowdfunding to trial whilst conversely they took none of the backlash and faced no consequences when the case fell flat.

[Eyrie]

Why don't you crack on with a crowdfunding appeal to take Salmond to court then. If you feel as strongly as the Orkney four did, I'm sure you'd get some support.

They took Carmichael to court because he lied, and he was supposed to be representing them. They didn't like that, and did something about it. Maybe they'd not found Hibs.net yet.

I note that you are unable to condemn Salmond, let alone do so with the same relish that you gloat over Carmichael getting caught. You're letting your allegiance get in the way of your principles.

As regards suing a politician for lying, I'd be as well suing them for breathing.

[ronaldo7]

I note that you are unable to condemn Salmond, let alone do so with the same relish that you gloat over Carmichael getting caught. You're letting your allegiance get in the way of your principles.

As regards suing a politician for lying, I'd be as well suing them for breathing.

Au Contraire, when you provide the written evidence, I'll duly oblige. The reason I'm happy that Carmichael got his comeuppance is that he tried to bleed the Orkney 4 dry. Instead of going for his own costs, he wanted punitive damages against the Fab 4.

Over to you.:aok:

[Eyrie]

Au Contraire, when you provide the written evidence, I'll duly oblige. The reason I'm happy that Carmichael got his comeuppance is that he tried to bleed the Orkney 4 dry. Instead of going for his own costs, he wanted punitive damages against the Fab 4.

Over to you.:aok:

Took thirty seconds on google
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042069
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13078175.Bruised_Salmond_denies_lying_as_rows_engu lf_SNP/

But for balance, Salmond was cleared on a technicality just like Carmichael, so I suppose you win.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

Although the £150k was for his legal expenses - he couldn't sue for damages because he was a liar.

[ronaldo7]

Took thirty seconds on google
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042069
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13078175.Bruised_Salmond_denies_lying_as_rows_engu lf_SNP/

But for balance, Salmond was cleared on a technicality just like Carmichael, so I suppose you win.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

Although the £150k was for his legal expenses - he couldn't sue for damages because he was a liar.

Thanks for that. First article by Simon Johnston of the Telegraph fame and his role in Frenchgate eh. Not a bad bit of unbiased info.

Second one BBC...Enough said

Third Salmond denies.

It still makes Carmichael a total unmitigated Liar, which I really couldn't print about anyone who wasn't. :aok:

[Eyrie]

It still makes Carmichael a total unmitigated Liar, which I really couldn't print about anyone who wasn't. :aok:
Which I agree with you about.

I'm just amused by your idea that it's only wrong when the "other" side get caught.

[ronaldo7]

Which I agree with you about.

I'm just amused by your idea that it's only wrong when the "other" side get caught.

Not my idea at all. If, for instance McGarry or Thomson get done, Legally and above board for doing wrong, they should face the consequences. According to you, Salmond got off with it, whatever the it was.

Carmichael is a proven Liar. Theirs' a difference.

Meanwhile Carmichael is trying to scrape together £150k, whilst Salmond is giving away his speech money/and part of his salary to charities.

If the two of them were hitching a lift on the back of my bike, I know which one I'd give a lift too. The bike might be a bit worse for wear at the end of the journey though.:aok:

[Northernhibee]

Not my idea at all. If, for instance McGarry or Thomson get done, Legally and above board for doing wrong, they should face the consequences. According to you, Salmond got off with it, whatever the it was.

Carmichael is a proven Liar. Theirs' a difference.

Meanwhile Carmichael is trying to scrape together £150k, whilst Salmond is giving away his speech money/and part of his salary to charities.

If the two of them were hitching a lift on the back of my bike, I know which one I'd give a lift too. The bike might be a bit worse for wear at the end of the journey though.:aok:

Were you quite so up in arms about Fat Eck's supposed legal advice over EU membership?

[Northernhibee]

Thanks for that. First article by Simon Johnston of the Telegraph fame and his role in Frenchgate eh. Not a bad bit of unbiased info.

Second one BBC...Enough said

Third Salmond denies.

It still makes Carmichael a total unmitigated Liar, which I really couldn't print about anyone who wasn't. :aok:

You really don't have any of your own opinions, do you? "BBC baaaaad".

[ronaldo7]

Were you quite so up in arms about Fat Eck's supposed legal advice over EU membership?

Before you rush to quote any of my posts on any thread on the Holy Ground, I suggest you read the "whole" thread first, as it makes this post look rather stupid.

[ronaldo7]

You really don't have any of your own opinions, do you? "BBC baaaaad".

Someone else told you to type this, didn't they.:aok:

[Lucky_Jim]

Carmichael is a liar, no doubts. But response to these events always depends on the circumstances. Are Carmichael's lies worse than those of Tory MP Lucy Allan? Probably not. She told a lie about a constituent and was outed as a liar. Carmichael lied about Nicola Sturgeon and outed himself after the election. Was one worse? Not in my view.
IMHO both should have faced by-elections.

I feel though that the Orkney 4 were used quite cynically by Lesley Riddoch and other SNP minded hacks to push their own agendas by making a lot of noise and pushing for the crowdfunding to trial whilst conversely they took none of the backlash and faced no consequences when the case fell flat.

Sorry to be pedantic AndyM but I think it's important in this case to be clear that Carmichael did not lie about Sturgeon. He lied, by his own admission, about being responsible for leaking a memo (which as it transpired - but was not known to Carmichael at the time - was an inaccurate record of a Sturgeon conversation). Carmichael did not write the memo or make up the story. He leaked a memo written by a civil servant a) believing its contents to be true and b) believing that its contents would damage the SNP politically.

He categorically did not lie about Sturgeon. Lying about the act of leaking the memo is what he's guilty of, no more, no less. The two are very different and it's not fair to accuse him of something he's not done.

[AndyM_1875]

Sorry to be pedantic AndyM but I think it's important in this case to be clear that Carmichael did not lie about Sturgeon. He lied, by his own admission, about being responsible for leaking a memo (which as it transpired - but was not known to Carmichael at the time - was an inaccurate record of a Sturgeon conversation). Carmichael did not write the memo or make up the story. He leaked a memo written by a civil servant a) believing its contents to be true and b) believing that its contents would damage the SNP politically.

He categorically did not lie about Sturgeon. Lying about the act of leaking the memo is what he's guilty of, no more, no less. The two are very different and it's not fair to accuse him of something he's not done.

Happy to be corrected on this. It's different to the Lucy Allan situation then quite considerably yet makes the actions of the cheerleading with no responsibility Riddoch all the worse.

[Moulin Yarns]

Happy to be corrected on this. It's different to the Lucy Allan situation then quite considerably yet makes the actions of the cheerleading with no responsibility Riddoch all the worse.

How well do you know Lesley Riddoch? She has often been critical of the SNP, and has been keen to never align herself with any political party, but my guess is she is more left than the SNP.

here is an example of here criticism of the SNP

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-time-to-tackle-scotland-s-shame-1-3941127

[ronaldo7]

Took thirty seconds on google
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042069
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13078175.Bruised_Salmond_denies_lying_as_rows_engu lf_SNP/

But for balance, Salmond was cleared on a technicality just like Carmichael, so I suppose you win.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-in-the-clear-but-critics-attack-sham-inquiry-over-eu-legal-advice-1-2729577

Although the £150k was for his legal expenses - he couldn't sue for damages because he was a liar.

Thanks for those mate, it spurred me into looking for more on the subject. :aok:

https://t.co/O0hRkoa7y1

[AndyM_1875]

How well do you know Lesley Riddoch? She has often been critical of the SNP, and has been keen to never align herself with any political party, but my guess is she is more left than the SNP.

here is an example of here criticism of the SNP

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-time-to-tackle-scotland-s-shame-1-3941127

As well as anyone who has read her journalism regularly over the years and who subscribes to her podcasts. I actually like her writing and bought 'Blossom' after meeting her at the Book Festival where she was sympathetic when I told her of my disenchantment with the SNP despite having voted for them, for several elections.
She's certainly not an SNP drone and that's surely a good thing. She's far too much of a loose cannon to be comfortable with the SNP who are much too fiscally conservative for her taste.

I'd go further to say she's done great things representing the interests of Scottish tenant farmers and pushing for Land Reform (along with the excellent Andy Wightman) but Orkney was IMHO a mistake, a bad one where I feel a lot of folk were led up the garden path.

[Stonewall]

We're not going to tell you who leaked/invented this because of "the need to protect "the safety of individual public servants, who might be put at risk either physically and or mental health (sic) of an individual."

What an excuse! (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/scotland-office-accused-of-new-frenchgate-cover-up.130283302?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert)

David Kelly.

[Stonewall]

Thanks for that. First article by Simon Johnston of the Telegraph fame and his role in Frenchgate eh. Not a bad bit of unbiased info.

Second one BBC...Enough said

Third Salmond denies.

It still makes Carmichael a total unmitigated Liar, which I really couldn't print about anyone who wasn't. :aok:

Why don't you try playing the ball instead of the man.

You may well be right about Carmichael but do you really think the SNP doesn't leak when it perceives it to be in its interests. Pots, kettles, black I'm afraid.

The whole system runs on leaks, in fact there is a very good argument that says it is healthy because it prevents those in power from concealing information they would rather we didn't know.

[Future17]

Why don't you try playing the ball instead of the man.

You may well be right about Carmichael but do you really think the SNP doesn't leak when it perceives it to be in its interests. Pots, kettles, black I'm afraid.

The whole system runs on leaks, in fact there is a very good argument that says it is healthy because it prevents those in power from concealing information they would rather we didn't know.

There's a good argument, but I think lots of people would disagree.

In any event, I would say the Carmichael situation is completely different and can't be equated to some noble quest to expose the truth. For starters, the leak he authorised revealed information that wasn't even true. However, even assuming he didn't know it wasn't true, his motivation was entirely self-serving. Furthermore, had that not been the case and his motivation was pure, he was given ample opportunity to own up to what he did yet chose to tell a blatant lie.

The facts are clear. Immediately prior to an election Carmichael chose to authorise the leaking of information which suggested Sturgeon would prefer a Conservative win. The implication was that Sturgeon was being disingenuous with the electorate by hoping for a Conservative victory whilst publicly campaigning against such an outcome. The information about Sturgeon was shown to be false. Carmichael was asked if he had authorised the leaking of that information. He said he had not. This was a lie.

The fact that he (and the Liberal Democrats as a party) consider it is appropriate for someone who has been publicly exposed as being inherently dishonest to continue as an elected representative of the people baffles me. How can any of his constituents trust him now? What use is he to them?

[ronaldo7]

Why don't you try playing the ball instead of the man.

You may well be right about Carmichael but do you really think the SNP doesn't leak when it perceives it to be in its interests. Pots, kettles, black I'm afraid.

The whole system runs on leaks, in fact there is a very good argument that says it is healthy because it prevents those in power from concealing information they would rather we didn't know.

The trouble with your train of thought is that it "was" a leak. My interpretation of the court case was it was a lie. Just like those who said Carmichael was a LIAR.

The guy who ran the story for the Telegraph was even tweeted by the FM to say the story was false, and if he'd bothered to ask, she'd have told him so. A few days on, and Carmichael was still telling lies and trying to cover his tracks.

Play the ball you say...Not when the man's already scored several own goals.

[Benny Brazil]

Not my idea at all. If, for instance McGarry or Thomson get done, Legally and above board for doing wrong, they should face the consequences. According to you, Salmond got off with it, whatever the it was.

Carmichael is a proven Liar. Theirs' a difference.

Meanwhile Carmichael is trying to scrape together £150k, whilst Salmond is giving away his speech money/and part of his salary to charities.

If the two of them were hitching a lift on the back of my bike, I know which one I'd give a lift too. The bike might be a bit worse for wear at the end of the journey though.:aok:

I'd leave them both in the gutter where they belong :aok: