Scotland Bill

[ronaldo7]

The House of Commons have just refused to let the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament rest in the hands of the Scottish people.

The permanency of our parliament is still in the hands of Westminster. Where did that vow go?

First paragraph reads...The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed by our three parties, starting 19th September.

It also fails the Smith test too. 15023

I've just heard Mundell say that Gordon Brown didn't mention Home rule. Oops https://youtu.be/PwfvL4jQVDA

Looks like we're on the way to another Indyref in my lifetime.

[Berwickhibby]

Hope not ...... The last referendum split the Scottish people and thankfully we dodged the bullet after the £7.6bn discrepancy in what would be required to run an independent Scotland.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Jonnyboy]

The House of Commons have just refused to let the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament rest in the hands of the Scottish people.

The permanency of our parliament is still in the hands of Westminster. Where did that vow go?

First paragraph reads...The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed by our three parties, starting 19th September.

It also fails the Smith test too. 15023

I've just heard Mundell say that Gordon Brown didn't mention Home rule.

Looks like we're on the way to another Indyref in my lifetime.

Looks like we're being branded as Nazis, R

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/15/david-starkey-defends-comparing-the-snp-to-the-nazis_n_7583620.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Why do the media give air time to these cranks?

[ronaldo7]

Looks like we're being branded as Nazis, R

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/15/david-starkey-defends-comparing-the-snp-to-the-nazis_n_7583620.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Why do the media give air time to these cranks?

Saw that the other day J. A historian who doesn't know much about the Nazis.

It beggars belief that the BBC still use this guy after his disgusting comments.

He must have forgotten about his signature on the Better Together "Let's stay together Scotland". http://www.bing.com/cr?h=fUP_NuUuIAfD47uvUbenMoywUvnRqGDBCwLGxuNQ8XA&v=1&r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.letsstaytogether.org.uk%2F&IG=a5d92e15185746bf8ebb005300e05b4d&CID=33C11914F66C63C90CF11E97F26C6066&p=SERP,5113.1

[Peevemor]

The House of Commons have just refused to let the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament rest in the hands of the Scottish people.

The permanency of our parliament is still in the hands of Westminster. Where did that vow go?

First paragraph reads...The Scottish Parliament is permanent and extensive new powers will be delivered by the process and to the timetable agreed by our three parties, starting 19th September.

It also fails the Smith test too. 15023

I've just heard Mundell say that Gordon Brown didn't mention Home rule. Oops https://youtu.be/PwfvL4jQVDA

Looks like we're on the way to another Indyref in my lifetime.

Honorable gentlemen my hairy hoop!

[Stranraer]

Starkey is a nutjob, I turn off QT when his ugly mug is on TV.

[ronaldo7]

The SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill for FFA has been defeated. 309 v 60 Seems that Labour abstained.

Dennis Skinner voted to give Scotland FFA whilst the only Labour MP in Scotland abstained.

[snooky]

Culloden II

[Speedy]

Hope not ...... The last referendum split the Scottish people and thankfully we dodged the bullet after the £7.6bn discrepancy in what would be required to run an independent Scotland.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

What is that as a percentage? What does it cost to run Scotland? (Roughly - I've no idea at the moment)

[lord bunberry]

What is that as a percentage? What does it cost to run Scotland? (Roughly - I've no idea at the moment)
It's a disputed figure, but I heard last night that it would leave us running a deficit twice the size of the UK. In reality it wouldn't though.

[liamh2202]

Did the Tory back bench ammendmant get through? In essence it was offering the same thing but without the grace time the SNP wanted

[Geo_1875]

It's a disputed figure, but I heard last night that it would leave us running a deficit twice the size of the UK. In reality it wouldn't though.

It is widely agreed that Scotland would be in deep **** if we followed UK policies and spending plans. We wouldn't.

[snooky]

It is widely agreed that Scotland would be in deep **** if we followed UK policies and spending plans. We wouldn't.

We wouldn't .....
a) be in deep ****?
b) follow UK policies?
c) both a&b?

[Geo_1875]

We wouldn't .....
a) be in deep ****?
b) follow UK policies?
c) both a&b?
:dunno:
.

b) first and a) follows.

[lord bunberry]

Did the Tory back bench ammendmant get through? In essence it was offering the same thing but without the grace time the SNP wanted
The SNP and a few Tories voted for the amendment, but it was defeated. I think Labour abstained.

[liamh2202]

The SNP and a few Tories voted for the amendment, but it was defeated. I think Labour abstained.

Cheers mate

[snooky]

The SNP and a few Tories voted for the amendment, but it was defeated. I think Labour abstained.

Or, IMO, "I think Labour 'stained".

[ronaldo7]

15024

[degenerated]

The SNP and a few Tories voted for the amendment, but it was defeated. I think Labour abstained.
Is this a display of their childish Bain principle or do they no longer know if they agree with something that they themselves introduced?

[Hibrandenburg]

15024

This makes the result of the referendum a farce and opens the door for the next or worse.

[lord bunberry]

Is this a display of their childish Bain principle or do they no longer know if they agree with something that they themselves introduced?
I found it strange that they abstained as well, there's been a few dissenting voices regarding the Bain principle, maybe they're quietly scrapping it.

[ronaldo7]

15035

[Future17]

I see there's a "storm brewing" (to use the cliché) over an allegation that Scotland is cutting funding for the monarchy. In the Telegraph's article on the subject they refer to Nicola Sturgeon as "an ardent republican".

Does anyone know if this is true because it's the first I've heard of it? :confused:

[degenerated]

I see there's a "storm brewing" (to use the cliché) over an allegation that Scotland is cutting funding for the monarchy. In the Telegraph's article on the subject they refer to Nicola Sturgeon as "an ardent republican".

Does anyone know if this is true because it's the first I've heard of it? :confused:
Its not really news, the daily heil ran it in December and it was regurgitated again today. May have more to do with land reform bill yesterday as Dacre will be worried about his tax breaks on his ullapool estate. Do the Barclays have land up here?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2863796/Outrage-Scots-rob-Queen-2-1-million-vow-hold-rights-Crown-Estates-including-Tobermory-Waterfront-shore-windfarms.html

[Moulin Yarns]

What a load of rubbish in the Mail, Telegraph and Guardian. This has all come about because Scotland will have control (next April) over the income (£14.5million) from the Crown Estate in Scotland. Currently all profits go to the London Treasury.

Right, so, to put this into perspective all profits from the Crown Estate go to the UK treasury, and is then distributed as it sees fit. Some of it goes to the Royal Family, but not all of it. As a result of the Scotland Act (and current Scotland Bill) this will change so that Scotland will have (some) control over that income, with an equivalent reduction in block grant. This is not, and could never be seen as Scotland withholding money from the Queen, it is part of the new financial arrangements agreed between Westminster and Holyrood.

What exactly is the Crown Estate?

http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/our-business/in-scotland/

In Scotland we manage four rural estates, mineral and salmon fishing rights, about half of the coastal foreshore and almost all of the seabed. We have a significant role in supporting aquaculture, marine leisure, ports & harbours and offshore renewable energy.

Our portfolio also includes our urban estate, comprising 39-41 George Street, Edinburgh. We also have a 50 per cent interest in an English Limited Partnership which owns Fort Kinnaird Retail Park in Edinburgh.

[Future17]

Sorry, I didn't word my post very well. What I meant to ask was whether anyone knew if NS is a republican?

[Kato]

Sorry, I didn't word my post very well. What I meant to ask was whether anyone knew if NS is a republican?

Doesn't sound like a Republican here......

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/1323483-contribution-to-monarchy-could-be-cut-by-1m-under-devolution-plan/

"In my view Scotland will continue to make its own contribution to the sovereign grant and that has always been its position.

"People really should be careful with some of these wild stories they read in sections of the media. The Queen is the head of state and should be highly respected across Scotland as well as the rest of the UK. I highly respect her in her role and the job that she does.

"The idea that there is anything that has changed in terms of the Scottish Government's relationship with Her Majesty and the royal family is completely without any faction."


Sounds quite lickspittley.

[ronaldo7]

Scotland Bill still doesn't have the full Smith proposals yet. No surprise there then. Still time I suppose.

http://t.co/mQbLK0wvNF

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/25/buckingham-palace-queen-scotland-snp-sturgeon-funding_n_7659868.html?icid=maing-grid7|ukt1|dl10|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D361022

[Future17]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/25/buckingham-palace-queen-scotland-snp-sturgeon-funding_n_7659868.html?icid=maing-grid7|ukt1|dl10|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D361022

It's not an apology is it...

[degenerated]

It's not an apology is it...
It's a pity we aren't in a position to do it.

[Jonnyboy]

It's not an apology is it...

Nope. They're royalty, they get someone else to apologise for them :greengrin

[--------]

Nope. They're royalty, they get someone else to apologise for them :greengrin


... and pay their bills.

[ronaldo7]

Scotland Bill this evening has seen Abortion devolved. Looks like Labour voted against.

Snp motion to devolve all child tax credits, and working tax credits to the Scottish Parliament defeated 56 to 477. Labour and Tories vote to Block.

Snp motion to devolve equal opportunities to the Scottish Parliament voted down by the Tories with Labour abstaining.

Lots more to come, but I'm off to bed.

We'll see what we've got to deal with in the Morning.

[snooky]

Scotland Bill this evening has seen Abortion devolved. Looks like Labour voted against.

Snp motion to devolve all child tax credits, and working tax credits to the Scottish Parliament defeated 56 to 477. Labour and Tories vote to Block.

Snp motion to devolve equal opportunities to the Scottish Parliament voted down by the Tories with Labour abstaining.

Lots more to come, but I'm off to bed.

We'll see what we've got to deal with in the Morning.

Ronaldo7, can I borrow the blinkers you were advised on another thread to discard?
Maybe they will blind me to the treachery in WM.

[Colr]

Sunday trading in England has an affect on Scotland apparently. As this is the case, this issue and any like it need to come back to the UK parliament as UK issues. The Scotland Bill needs to allow that to happen.

[ronaldo7]

Ronaldo7, can I borrow the blinkers you were advised on another thread to discard?
Maybe they will blind me to the treachery in WM.

15635:greengrin

Lovely colours eh.

[RyeSloan]

Sunday trading in England has an affect on Scotland apparently. As this is the case, this issue and any like it need to come back to the UK parliament as UK issues. The Scotland Bill needs to allow that to happen.

I saw that...a very tenuous link made by the SNP there. A link so tenuous that effectively you could make an argument that anything that effects only England as always effecting Scotland..and if that sounds fckd up then that's because it is :-)

[speedy_gonzales]

I saw that...a very tenuous link made by the SNP there. A link so tenuous that effectively you could make an argument that anything that effects only England as always effecting Scotland..and if that sounds fckd up then that's because it is :-)
Agreed :thumbsup:
There was a segment on BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show today about the possibility of the SNP MP's potentially blocking the Sunday trading changes. There was a whiff of hypocrisy when the SNP's argument was boiled down to "Sunday trading may degrade workers rights/payments." followed by "but you have Sunday trading in Scotland?", if it's such an issue surely our government would use it's powers to fight this travesty!
One commentator even asked if it was the SNP that brought in Sunday trading, not realising we've had Sunday trading for as long as I can remember (certainly before Holyrood) due to legal loopholes and discrepancies between Westminster and the then Scottish Executive,,,,,,I was surprised the SNP never took credit for it though :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Sunday trading in England has an affect on Scotland apparently. As this is the case, this issue and any like it need to come back to the UK parliament as UK issues. The Scotland Bill needs to allow that to happen.


I saw that...a very tenuous link made by the SNP there. A link so tenuous that effectively you could make an argument that anything that effects only England as always effecting Scotland..and if that sounds fckd up then that's because it is :-)

Any ideas why over 30 Tories and the Labour party are against this?

[RyeSloan]

Any ideas why over 30 Tories and the Labour party are against this?

None what so ever...all seems a bit quaint to me.

But at least they can claim the issue effects their constituency, quite how the SNP can be against it when there are similar rules already in place in Scotland I have no idea though, you?

[ronaldo7]

None what so ever...all seems a bit quaint to me.

But at least they can claim the issue effects their constituency, quite how the SNP can be against it when there are similar rules already in place in Scotland I have no idea though, you?

I think the Snp took a bit of a battering the other night from the Big bullies of the playground and so got up off the floor and kicked their shins. At least the Bullies can claim the policies they put in place were fine as they still have 1 MP in Scotland.

Political posturing springs to mind, on all sides.

[RyeSloan]

I think the Snp took a bit of a battering the other night from the Big bullies of the playground and so got up off the floor and kicked their shins. At least the Bullies can claim the policies they put in place were fine as they still have 1 MP in Scotland. Political posturing springs to mind, on all sides.

Indeed but two blacks don't make a white...it's all a bit pathetic really but I suppose that's politics for you!

[southfieldhibby]

Sunday trading: isn't it because in Scotland firms ( like Tesco/Morrisons) pay higher wages to staff working on a Sunday, but if the new law was implemented in England/Wales that would end? The SNP are claiming they're defending the wages of Scottish workers?

[RyeSloan]

Sunday trading: isn't it because in Scotland firms ( like Tesco/Morrisons) pay higher wages to staff working on a Sunday, but if the new law was implemented in England/Wales that would end? The SNP are claiming they're defending the wages of Scottish workers?

Why would it end? Are these companies paying higher wages just for the sake of it? Do Scottish stores open on a Sunday get extra trade from England because their stores are closed? The economics of Sunday trading don't change in Scotland become English stores open longer...indeed you could easily argue the opposite. Longer opening hours for the shop owners might bring bigger profits therefore actually safeguarding their workers T&C's.

It was a chance to defeat the government on something, anything and they couldn't resist. They got their way with it being pulled but made themselves look as petty as the rest of them in doing so by putting political capital as their primary goal. Even worse they dressed it up as some sort of 'defence of the worker'

[southfieldhibby]

Why would it end? Are these companies paying higher wages just for the sake of it? Do Scottish stores open on a Sunday get extra trade from England because their stores are closed? The economics of Sunday trading don't change in Scotland become English stores open longer...indeed you could easily argue the opposite. Longer opening hours for the shop owners might bring bigger profits therefore actually safeguarding their workers T&C's.

It was a chance to defeat the government on something, anything and they couldn't resist. They got their way with it being pulled but made themselves look as petty as the rest of them in doing so by putting political capital as their primary goal. Even worse they dressed it up as some sort of 'defence of the worker'

I'm not sure, I'm recycling what Robertson claimed on the TV. Obviously The SNP are annoyed at the Scotland Bill and feel like being a pest, which is the democratic right of opposition parties I'm afraid. Keeping the Government on their toes and using parliamentary votes to annoy.

Which is a more valid reason ( in my eyes) than some of the backbench tories are using, which the wee free lot would be proud of.

[RyeSloan]

I'm not sure, I'm recycling what Robertson claimed on the TV. Obviously The SNP are annoyed at the Scotland Bill and feel like being a pest, which is the democratic right of opposition parties I'm afraid. Keeping the Government on their toes and using parliamentary votes to annoy. Which is a more valid reason ( in my eyes) than some of the backbench tories are using, which the wee free lot would be proud of.

Fair point! I read the 20 Tory MP's letter yesterday and kind of thought the same thing.

[ronaldo7]

Let's hope a deal is done and we're not accused of dragging our feet.

A deal for Scotland with no detriment is what Smith proposed.

https://t.co/4AYZNijR9W

[ronaldo7]

The story so far...https://t.co/IeN5JyO8TN

[ronaldo7]

I think I'll post this link just because I can. To any poster looking in who doesn't want an incisive look into how the Unionist parties are colluding, don't open the link. :wink:

https://t.co/c1TJfgHXNs

[Hibrandenburg]

I think I'll post this link just because I can. To any poster looking in who doesn't want an incisive look into how the Unionist parties are colluding, don't open the link. :wink:

https://t.co/c1TJfgHXNs


"Better together tax" :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

"Better together tax" :greengrin

That'll have the yoons jumping up and down.:greengrin

[AndyM_1875]

That'll have the yoons jumping up and down.:greengrin

"Yoons".

Jesus wept.

[Hibrandenburg]

"Yoons".

Jesus wept.

It's nice compared to some of the names used to describe Indy supporters.

[AndyM_1875]

It's nice compared to some of the names used to describe Indy supporters.

It's infantile clichéd nonsense that means the square root of hee haw.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's infantile clichéd nonsense that means the square root of hee haw.

Opinions eh, it made me chuckle.

[marinello59]

Opinions eh, it made me chuckle.

I won't know whether it is funny or not until somebody posts a link about it to wings or the wee ginger dog.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

"Yoons".

Jesus wept.

:tee hee: Take a chill Andy, I've been called all sorts on here. You'll need to stick some thick tar on that skin of yours.

You did see the smiley right?

[ronaldo7]

Can anyone tell me what the Labour, Tory, or Lib dem stand is on the Fiscal Framework?

Do they support the Scot Gov position on No Detriment?

[RyeSloan]

Can anyone tell me what the Labour, Tory, or Lib dem stand is on the Fiscal Framework? Do they support the Scot Gov position on No Detriment?

Are they party to the detail of the discussion? I'm sure they will have a view point when the deal is presented to the Scottish Parliament, until then I can't see why you would expect them to be saying much on the subject until the facts are known.

[ronaldo7]

Are they party to the detail of the discussion? I'm sure they will have a view point when the deal is presented to the Scottish Parliament, until then I can't see why you would expect them to be saying much on the subject until the facts are known.

They were all involved in Smith discussions. They would have an idea on the no detriment clauses. it's just that they've been awfully quiet on the subject. Ruthie's been feted down in England over the last week, and I'm sure she's had discussions with her party counterparts in government in London.

Just seems a bit quiet by all the other parties.

[Beefster]

I won't know whether it is funny or not until somebody posts a link about it to wings or the wee ginger dog.:greengrin

I've no idea what it means but when I googled it, a large proportion of the results (in the context it was used on here anyway) were from WoS. Just when I thought that we might be getting something original too...

[RyeSloan]

They were all involved in Smith discussions. They would have an idea on the no detriment clauses. it's just that they've been awfully quiet on the subject. Ruthie's been feted down in England over the last week, and I'm sure she's had discussions with her party counterparts in government in London. Just seems a bit quiet by all the other parties.

I'm sure they understand the concept but I'm not seeing how they will know the detail of what is being proposed by both sides in the detailed discussions.

Clearly the sensible thing to do politically and logically is to wait for the agreement to be made, examine the detail and then respond.

It's a big test for the SNP, especially as just recently they were saying they could negotiate the exit of Scotland from the UK on all of our behalf's so I'm quite sure their political opponents are quite happy to let them get on with it and see what transpires....in sure you will hear plenty from them once the detail is published.

[JeMeSouviens]

Are they party to the detail of the discussion? I'm sure they will have a view point when the deal is presented to the Scottish Parliament, until then I can't see why you would expect them to be saying much on the subject until the facts are known.

The Tories should know, they're the ones negotiating on the UK side.

btw, it's **** all to do with the actual Smith commission report which contains some woolly language about "no detriment" and absolutely no detail on how that might be achieved. There's a write up of the options under discussion here:

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8061

Key para:


It therefore turns out that it is impossible to design a block grant adjustment system that satisfies the spirit of the ‘no detriment from the decision to devolve’ principle at the same time as fully achieving the ‘taxpayer fairness’ principle: at least while the Barnett Formula remains in place. Some methods better satisfy the first and others the second principle.

In other words, Smith's woolly clauses are mutually exclusive and someone is going to have to cave to make it work.

[RyeSloan]

The Tories should know, they're the ones negotiating on the UK side. btw, it's **** all to do with the actual Smith commission report which contains some woolly language about "no detriment" and absolutely no detail on how that might be achieved. There's a write up of the options under discussion here: http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8061 Key para: In other words, Smith's woolly clauses are mutually exclusive and someone is going to have to cave to make it work.

Thanks...although surely this is to be expected when you start transferring tax raising powers? I get Smith suggested 'no detriment' but really are we saying Scotland will only take more powers and responsibility if we can be assured that at no point ever in the future will it lead to lower Scottish government income than if the old system was in place? I'm struggling a bit with that, we either want to take responsibility or we don't?

Anyway it's been fun to watch both sides slagging each other off in the press, all very mature and gawd only knows what it would be like if there was a full scale independence discussion going on. Which I think was one of the discussion points raised at the Indy Ref, Salmond was busy assuring everyone he would have rUK over a barrel and we would get a great deal out of them. So far with discussions of a much smaller nature that seems a rather rosy view to have taken.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks...although surely this is to be expected when you start transferring tax raising powers? I get Smith suggested 'no detriment' but really are we saying Scotland will only take more powers and responsibility if we can be assured that at no point ever in the future will it lead to lower Scottish government income than if the old system was in place? I'm struggling a bit with that, we either want to take responsibility or we don't?


Arguably the people voted *not* to take responsibility so why are we even in this discussion?



Anyway it's been fun to watch both sides slagging each other off in the press, all very mature and gawd only knows what it would be like if there was a full scale independence discussion going on. Which I think was one of the discussion points raised at the Indy Ref, Salmond was busy assuring everyone he would have rUK over a barrel and we would get a great deal out of them. So far with discussions of a much smaller nature that seems a rather rosy view to have taken.

To be fair, the Scottish Gov has a somewhat limited hand in these talks. It's more or less take what you're given or lump it. It certainly doesn't have anything with the bargaining power of "alright, you can transition your nuclear subs out over 10 years" or "we'll agree to a per-capita share of UK national debt".

[RyeSloan]

Arguably the people voted *not* to take responsibility so why are we even in this discussion? To be fair, the Scottish Gov has a somewhat limited hand in these talks. It's more or less take what you're given or lump it. It certainly doesn't have anything with the bargaining power of "alright, you can transition your nuclear subs out over 10 years" or "we'll agree to a per-capita share of UK national debt".

Aye fair points...does seem strange tho that the SNP didn't vote against the bill in the commons of they didn't like the content or that the method of calculating future revenue amounts had not been detailed and therefore put themselves and Scotland in this position.

To be honest it all looks a bit of a rushed half baked guddle that I'm not looking to attribute to any one party, seems to me all sides should have taken a bit more time and care to work the bloody thing out before agreeing to it!

[JeMeSouviens]

Aye fair points...does seem strange tho that the SNP didn't vote against the bill in the commons of they didn't like the content or that the method of calculating future revenue amounts had not been detailed and therefore put themselves and Scotland in this position.

To be honest it all looks a bit of a rushed half baked guddle that I'm not looking to attribute to any one party, seems to me all sides should have taken a bit more time and care to work the bloody thing out before agreeing to it!

Can't argue with any of that. :agree:

[ronaldo7]

So, it seems the treasury now see fit to offer £4.5Billion over 10 years if we take their offer. What would've happened if Swinney et al had just rolled over?

https://t.co/xjufL0j8Lv

[ronaldo7]

All's well that ends well. Thank god we have someone standing up for Scotland.:greengrin

http://www.snp.org/standing_up_for_scotland

[Hibrandenburg]

All's well that ends well. Thank god we have someone standing up for Scotland.:greengrin

http://www.snp.org/standing_up_for_scotland

Not just Scotland, looks like they're doing labour's job for them in Westminster too.
https://youtu.be/MZwGzfNQZUo

[lucky]

All's well that ends well. Thank god we have someone standing up for Scotland.:greengrin

http://www.snp.org/standing_up_for_scotland

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

[allmodcons]

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

You need to stop believing everything you read in the Daily Record. The Smith Commission proposals have been delivered. Nothing more nothing less.

[bawheid]

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

If Scottish Labour take this line of argument they're well and truly stuffed! They should be distancing themselves from that whole sorry episode.

Any reminder of the days when they shared platforms with the Tories and Lib Dems, hugging each other in the early hours of September 19th, will need to be airbrushed from people's minds before they can make up any of the ground they tossed away.

[weecounty hibby]

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

What a terrible post and exactly why the Labour Party will struggle for years to come in Scotland. 13 months of "negotiations " to prevent Scotland from losing billions of pounds from her budget. Smith was eventually delivered but no thanks to the Tories or labour who were protecting Westminster, and their cosy positions, rather than trying to get the best for Scotland

[Hibrandenburg]

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

You'll take some stick for that Lucky!

Edit: :greengrin

[Tyler Durden]

Arguably the people voted *not* to take responsibility so why are we even in this discussion?



To be fair, the Scottish Gov has a somewhat limited hand in these talks. It's more or less take what you're given or lump it. It certainly doesn't have anything with the bargaining power of "alright, you can transition your nuclear subs out over 10 years" or "we'll agree to a per-capita share of UK national debt".

On the first point, obviously you're correct but does this agreement not completely undermine the SNPs case for independence? Are they not admitting that Scotland need to be subsidised?

Not looking to start an argument btw, just keen to understand how this can be interpreted any other way.

[Hibrandenburg]

On the first point, obviously you're correct but does this agreement not completely undermine the SNPs case for independence? Are they not admitting that Scotland need to be subsidised?

Not looking to start an argument btw, just keen to understand how this can be interpreted any other way.

Is it a subsidy when you get less from the pot than you put in?

[ronaldo7]

So the Vow was delivered. Looks like so much of your posts on this subject were wrong. I look forward to you admitting it

:tee hee: I'm still waiting for yer pal Gordy Broon's "Home rule" punt to the nation a week before the vote to come true.

As I said, I'm glad we have people who are looking after our interests negotiating the deal rather than a bunch of ermine clad puppets.:aok:

https://t.co/7f8I0V7Txe

[Tyler Durden]

Is it a subsidy when you get less from the pot than you put in?

Do you intend to offer any detail behind this? Otherwise a pointless reply.

The SNP deal purports to protect the grant on the basis it's likely our income through new tax powers will diminish and leave Scotland in a worse position than we are currently. Does that fact not go against any view we'd be better off independent?

Seems a simple question

[Just Alf]

Do you intend to offer any detail behind this? Otherwise a pointless reply.

The SNP deal purports to protect the grant on the basis it's likely our income through new tax powers will diminish and leave Scotland in a worse position than we are currently. Does that fact not go against any view we'd be better off independent?

Seems a simple question
Complicated answer though :-)



Was gonna leave it there but you.deserve a reply :agree:

take one small element of the relationship..

Crown Estates.

In theory all income from Scottish based properties now goes to the Scottish Government who in turn are required to pay any upkeep costs etc and keep any profit. on the face of it that's a no brainer source of profit, even taking into account expenditure required on non income producing property, tidal areas etc.

The devil is in the detail though, Fort Kinnaird is a crown property and one of its most profitable north of the border, unfortunately because there was a private investor in the mix right at the start, FK is retained to the UK parliament and all profits go to Westminster.

Independence would be a clean break so everything would go to the Scottish Government.

That's just one example, I imagine there's loads more.

I think it's trying to unpick all that type of thing that may result in a reduction of Barnet Formula monies not being reflected by a matched income within Scotland to offset it.

Apologies for the long post, but one last thing to add, both Governments agreed that any changes would only be include if they could show no negative impact (in either direction) so despite the SNP claiming victory in standing up to the UK Government, the truth is more middle of the road, the UK could also in effect claim a similar "victory" on Their part


Hope all that makes sense. On phone so not able to edit easily!



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Tyler Durden]

Cheers that's some valuable context.

Yes I'm aware the "No detriment" clause cuts both ways which clearly was always going to require some compromise. Sturgeon's talk of the Treasury blinking first is pretty juvenile IMO but is in keeping with the SNPs need to be viewed as protecting Scotland's interests.

My view remains unchanged that there is no economic argument for independence. Personally I think Yes campaign would have fared better to focus on the ideological/emotive case and been up front around the more complex financial consequences which are finger in the air stuff

[AndyM_1875]

All's well that ends well. Thank god we have someone standing up for Scotland.:greengrin

http://www.snp.org/standing_up_for_scotland

Good.

So with May 2016 pretty much in the bag perhaps now we can have the SNP actually getting on with the business of governing Scotland and less whinging. You never know, some radical policies might actually be worth a go...:wink: But I shan't hold my breath for that.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Good.

So with May 2016 pretty much in the bag perhaps now we can have the SNP actually getting on with the business of governing Scotland and less whinging. You never know, some radical policies might actually be worth a go...:wink: But I shan't hold my breath for that.:greengrin

I'm glad you've come round to our way of thinking in that the SNP are standing up for Scotland. :aok: More done in 7 than Labour done in 70:wink:

In case you've not noticed, the SNP have been getting on with governing whilst the other branch offices try to find out what London wants them to do.

Policies are on the way, starting with Welfare. I'm sure all the carer's out their will be pleased with the SNP today.:greengrin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14310666.SNP_to_unveil__quot_fairer_quot__approach _to_welfare_with_new_powers_plan/?ref=rss

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14311554.Poll__60_per_cent_to_vote_SNP_as_public_b acks_party_s_record_on_health_and_education/?ref=mr&lp=1

And if whinging about London keeping cash or cutting our budget, then I'm afraid you're going to hear lots more of it. It's called standing up for Scotland and not the ermine cladders.

https://t.co/9AAb9hXzEv We're not going back to sleep.:devil:

[AndyM_1875]

I'm glad you've come round to our way of thinking in that the SNP are standing up for Scotland. :aok: More done in 7 than Labour done in 70:wink:


Comedian.:rolleyes:
I'm no Labour fanboy but to suggest the SNP's modest ventures can somehow be compared with a party which delivered the NHS, the minimum wage, the decriminalizing of homosexuality, the Equal Pay act and the Scottish Parliament amongst other things is a stretch too far even for me.

Labour have held power for something like 35 out of their 135 years existence.



In case you've not noticed, the SNP have been getting on with governing whilst the other branch offices try to find out what London wants them to do.

Policies are on the way, starting with Welfare. I'm sure all the carer's out their will be pleased with the SNP today.:greengrin

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14310666.SNP_to_unveil__quot_fairer_quot__approach _to_welfare_with_new_powers_plan/?ref=rss

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14311554.Poll__60_per_cent_to_vote_SNP_as_public_b acks_party_s_record_on_health_and_education/?ref=mr&lp=1

And if whinging about London keeping cash or cutting our budget, then I'm afraid you're going to hear lots more of it. It's called standing up for Scotland and not the ermine cladders.

https://t.co/9AAb9hXzEv We're not going back to sleep.:devil:

Good new regarding carers but I fear you're already asleep. You've been assimilated and will swallow any old rubbish from the SNP. And that sort of mindset delivers bad legislation like the OBA Act and will allow Fracking in Scotland after May 6.

[ronaldo7]

Comedian.:rolleyes:
I'm no Labour fanboy but to suggest the SNP's modest ventures can somehow be compared with a party which delivered the NHS, the minimum wage, the decriminalizing of homosexuality, the Equal Pay act and the Scottish Parliament amongst other things is a stretch too far even for me.

Labour have held power for something like 35 out of their 135 years existence.



Good new regarding carers but I fear you're already asleep. You've been assimilated and will swallow any old rubbish from the SNP. And that sort of mindset delivers bad legislation like the OBA Act and will allow Fracking in Scotland after May 6.

The SNP seem to have touched another of your nerves:wink:

More policies getting rolled out by Scotland's Party. Some others seem to be asleep at the wheel.:greengrin

More of those Tory types in North Berwick will be spitting feathers tonight in the Golf Club. Happy days.

[AndyM_1875]

The SNP seem to have touched another of your nerves:wink:

More policies getting rolled out by Scotland's Party. Some others seem to be asleep at the wheel.:greengrin

More of those Tory types in North Berwick will be spitting feathers tonight in the Golf Club. Happy days.

Ah you seem to forget I was card carrying SNP for many years.:greengrin
The centralizing and the NewLabour inspired message control and the blood & soil types was what drove me away.

I must confess to being pretty unimpressed with the Council tax tinkerings, what was done yesterday could have been sorted in 2007, so it's hardly progressive stuff. A really reformist and progressive party would have introduced a land tax per property as was the suggestion of Andy Wightman.
Still, as long as Tories are annoyed that can't be a bad thing.