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View Full Version : Do we really need a Youth Policy?



MB62
15-06-2015, 10:21 AM
I've been thinking about this for a couple of years now but this close season has just got me asking 'Why are we continually spending money on a youth policy when very few, if any, come through and we just end up signing players from other clubs'?

It's not a wind BTW, it's a serious question.

I have no idea how much the club spends on bringing young players to the club and trying to bring them through our system, ready eventually for first team appearances.
Whatever it is, our success rate of recent years has been all but non existent and the 'big' hopes for this season, Handling, Stanton & Harris have all apparently been told to find themselves another club.
Along with this, we seem to be 'cherry picking' players of a similar age from other clubs, players that we are obviously looking at playing a contributing role in the first team squad for the coming season and not just be sitting on the bench because we need young guys there by the rules.

I know we all like to see our own coming through, but if they are not coming through, then there is a big waste of time and money spent on these guys that could maybe be used better elsewhere.

I'm also a big believer in the fact that clubs DO NOT build for the future as far as the team is concerned. Everything is done for the PRESENT not the next year or year after as nobody knows who is going to be at the club in 6 months time never mind a year or two. We didn't go in to last season to build a team to win the league this season, nor will be building a team now for next year. The squad Stubbs is putting together is to try and win the league this coming season, or if not, to get promoted through the play offs.
On that, if Stubbs does put together a league winning team, then the chances are he will not be with us next season and a new team will have to built again, as happens every year, by most clubs I may add.

It's obviously a controversial thought/opinion and no doubt there will be plenty names get banded about about who has come through recently, Jordon Forster for one. Maybe this is just a frustration about our lack of lads making the step up but if we are now signing young players from other clubs, why bother spending money on our youth system?

matty_f
15-06-2015, 10:44 AM
I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

NAE NOOKIE
15-06-2015, 11:06 AM
I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

This

MyJo
15-06-2015, 11:09 AM
I think we do need a youth system its just that it has been woefully mismanaged over the last 10 or so years along with the rest of the club, and while the odd player or two made the break through after the golden generation they have been nowhere near the quality of Riordan, O'Conner, Brown, Thomson, Whittaker or Fletcher and have either found their level playing for hibs like Hanlon and Stevenson or haven't developed enough and ended up being shipped out rather than being sold on to bigger clubs for a profit which is surely the aim of the youth system of a club our size.

The problem has been the focus on hibs as a business IMO, too much empahasis on how much money we could make if we developed players and sold them thinking that it would be enough to get a player through the youth ranks and chuck them in the first team and wait for the offers to come in but the step from under-19 level to the first team has proven to be massive and a hurdle too far for many promising players who have fallen by the way-side.

The new structure at the club sounds like it should address a lot of these issues with a much better range of coaching and education at youth level and a focus on developing players to first team standard rather than developing them to under-19 level then chucking them into the first team and leaving it up to the manager to deal with, but this is going to take a few years before we really start to see any benefits from this.

JimBHibees
15-06-2015, 11:17 AM
I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

Agree entirely and wouldn't underplay the social responsibility to the overall game in this small country. We are one of the bigger clubs and should be developing players and people who can have successful careers in the game or sport or whatever. They may not all play for Hibs but some will while others will likely move on to better or smaller clubs dependent on how good we are. There appears to have been a number of pretty iffy managerial decisions who havent really focussed much of the benefits of a successful youth policy.

We have the right man in place now who has experience at a much higher level than Hibs in terms of youth development and he has been allowed to properly staff the Academy with the right sort of quality and people to ensure it is not ignored again.

For a club the size of Hibs it is imperative we bring through excellent young players. For anyone thinking otherwise the recent Sky interview with Brown/Fletcher and Whitty shows how important it is.

Bad Martini
15-06-2015, 11:23 AM
So, I think we're all agreed. A youth system is braw. If it works :greengrin

For the first time ever, I used less words than aw of youse and sucinctly got to the point :na na:

In all seriousness, who would invoke a youth policy that doesny work on purpose though? :greengrin :aok:

...sarcasim aside, if we fix it, they will come....or something.

MB62
15-06-2015, 11:27 AM
I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.


You make some very good points Matty and I tend to agree with your response, especially about shirking our responsibility to the game, in fact I couldn't argue against anything you said.
I do feel though that we maybe need to look at the whole youth set up we have and decide exactly what we want out of it as a club. Are we looking at this as being the best for Hibernian F.C. or as a sense of responsibility to the game in general?
Presently, I'm not convince that what we get out of it is worth what we are putting in.

matty_f
15-06-2015, 11:34 AM
You make some very good points Matty and I tend to agree with your response, especially about shirking our responsibility to the game, in fact I couldn't argue against anything you said.
I do feel though that we maybe need to look at the whole youth set up we have and decide exactly what we want out of it as a club. Are we looking at this as being the best for Hibernian F.C. or as a sense of responsibility to the game in general?
Presently, I'm not convince that what we get out of it is worth what we are putting in.

I think for the present set up, it'll take a couple of years before we start seeing any real difference to the output. The changes have only just been made so they'll take time to produce results.

Brightside
15-06-2015, 11:38 AM
Didn't the youth system pay for the stand? we may not have had much through recently but i think that is being addressed under Eddie.

MB62
15-06-2015, 11:58 AM
I think for the present set up, it'll take a couple of years before we start seeing any real difference to the output. The changes have only just been made so they'll take time to produce results.

But how long have we been saying that Matty? Every manager comes in and seems to change the youth set up because the previous one hasn't been working (and every manager, it seems, has failed).
In two years time, Stubbs will not be Hibs manager, he will either have been headhunted by some club down south or be sacked by Hibs for not producing the goods. Then another manager comes in and will probably want to change it again and it will be another two years before we see the benefit of that one, and on it goes, meaning we never see any benefit.
I know this is going against the grain of the positivity of the moment, I actually feel very positive about things myself believe it or not, but I just feel we might be better spending money on signing individual players we need/want from other clubs than spending it on 20 or so (I have no idea how many youth players we have on our books) in the hope that eventually one or other makes the grade.

If I thought Stubbs was going to be our manager in 5 years time, I would possibly not be raising the question as I think he knows what is required, having working with the Toffees youth, but there is no chance of that happening and it will be back to square one.

lord bunberry
15-06-2015, 12:00 PM
So, I think we're all agreed. A youth system is braw. If it works :greengrin

For the first time ever, I used less words than aw of youse and sucinctly got to the point :na na:

In all seriousness, who would invoke a youth policy that doesny work on purpose though? :greengrin :aok:

...sarcasim aside, if we fix it, they will come....or something.
That's exactly it though, if it's an effective youth policy and its done properly it should pay for itself. The last few years it's been badly run and ineffective, therefore a waste of money. Everything about the youth policy should be geared towards getting players ready for the first team, winning leagues and cups is great, but it's not the most important thing.

matty_f
15-06-2015, 12:03 PM
But how long have we been saying that Matty? Every manager comes in and seems to change the youth set up because the previous one hasn't been working (and every manager, it seems, has failed).
In two years time, Stubbs will not be Hibs manager, he will either have been headhunted by some club down south or be sacked by Hibs for not producing the goods. Then another manager comes in and will probably want to change it again and it will be another two years before we see the benefit of that one, and on it goes, meaning we never see any benefit.
I know this is going against the grain of the positivity of the moment, I actually feel very positive about things myself believe it or not, but I just feel we might be better spending money on signing individual players we need/want from other clubs than spending it on 20 or so (I have no idea how many youth players we have on our books) in the hope that eventually one or other makes the grade.

If I thought Stubbs was going to be our manager in 5 years time, I would possibly not be raising the question as I think he knows what is required, having working with the Toffees youth, but there is no chance of that happening and it will be back to square one.

The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

Sammy7nil
15-06-2015, 12:14 PM
I think this is a great topic, and a very relevant question.

IIRC there are a few SPFL Premiership clubs that dont' really have a youth policy of note, their resources are focused solely on the first team and getting results there. It's an approach that clearly suits them.

IMHO, though, that approach shirks responsibility for the game in Scotland, and for the young players that Scotland could produce if teams operated a good youth policy.

I think it is essential for a club like ours to have a stand out youth policy. If you look at our squad last season, we had Stevenson, Hanlon, Forster, Handling and (to a lesser extent because we picked him up late) Cummings, all had come from our youth team. That's a good return, we also had Stanton on the periphery of the first team.

Have we been as successful as we could have been with the youths? No, I don't think so. I think we have identified that the youth set up wasn't what it could or should be, and have taken steps to address that. Hibs have said that they want to be the club of choice for the best talent in the surrounding area, and beyond that.

The value in bringing through your own players is significant when it works. Look at the difference to the club following the sales of Brown, Thomson, Whittaker,and Fletcher. We grew the club by modernising the stadium and building the training centre. You can obviously point to the fact that we're in the Championship as a counter to that, but I'd say we're in the Championship despite those things, not because of them.

The other thing that is a benefit from bringing through your own players is that you can help embed a culture at the club where you have players that have been brought up to understand the scale and values of the club, so when you bring other players in they have a benchmark. I think we lost that for a long time with a huge churn of players since the days of the Golden Generation.

A badly run youth set up is of no value, and you probably would be better just directing the funds straight to the first team and hope you get lucky with one or two players coming through a token youth set up.

However, a well run youth set up brings prestige to the club, enhances the reputation, brings a level of community and social responsibility, helps the Scottish game, and brings much needed revenue into the club. Getting it right is absolutely key though.

I am not having a go at all, but each of the players mentioned played their part in our relegation so hardly shinning examples. On the other hand Riordan, Murray, O'Connor, Brown, Thomson and Whittiker are all great examples. I suppose what we really need to know is how much does the youth set up cost year on year and what difference would the diversion of that investment make to the first team wage bill?

For what is worth I fully support the youth set up as I totally agree Hibs have a responsibility to play a full role in the local community and schools were possible.

matty_f
15-06-2015, 12:19 PM
I am not having a go at all, but each of the players mentioned played their part in our relegation so hardly shinning examples. On the other hand Riordan, Murray, O'Connor, Brown, Thomson and Whittiker are all great examples. I suppose what we really need to know is how much does the youth set up cost year on year and what difference would the diversion of that investment make to the first team wage bill?

For what is worth I fully support the youth set up as I totally agree Hibs have a responsibility to play a full role in the local community and schools were possible.

Some cracking players have been relegated with poor teams, I think Hanlon and Stevenson were good players in a bad team last season, so it's harsh to hold the relegation against them. I think if Hanlon hadn't been injured towards the end of last season that we'd have stayed up.

MB62
15-06-2015, 12:25 PM
The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.

Andy74
15-06-2015, 12:26 PM
The quick answer is we need a better one than we've had. If it works it is worth the investment.

Purple & Green
15-06-2015, 12:28 PM
The last few managers haven't been allowed to do anything with the youth policy, as far as I'm aware.

The way it's set up now, IIRC, is that it wouldn't matter who the manager is, the youth set up is protected and set up in line with the overall football strategy of the club, which again, is protected from the changes in managers.

I agree that the youth set up wasn't as effective as it should have been though.

It's supposed to have been like that since Alex McLeish was involved nearly 20 years ago. I'd be interested in reading what our football strategy is, I guess its written down somewhere but it's obviously commercially sensitive so most fans would never see it.

To go back to the original point though, I'd guess a "youth set up" is possibly defined in our licensing conditions by the SFA.

Sammy7nil
15-06-2015, 12:28 PM
Some cracking players have been relegated with poor teams, I think Hanlon and Stevenson were good players in a bad team last season, so it's harsh to hold the relegation against them. I think if Hanlon hadn't been injured towards the end of last season that we'd have stayed up.

I don't disagree about Hanlon I think his injury played a major role in our rapid decline.
However both those players have been part of some very average Hibs teams over a number of years. If they were to be placed on the transfer list both would find clubs probably even in the SPFL but neither would attract a fee. That is the standard of player the policy has delivered over the past 7 - 8 years.

Ozyhibby
15-06-2015, 12:31 PM
The club are just about to set up their own community club based at East Mains which is separate from the youth set up, so the club obviously feel that it's important to connect with youth football in Scotland.

Smartie
15-06-2015, 12:34 PM
If you leave our current predicament to one side for a moment you would have to say that our ultimate aim is to be challenging at the top end of the premier league.

We aren't going to be able to buy a team capable of challenging the OF as their financial muscle will ultimately see us off (although I would like to see us do a better job of competing with Ross County and St Johnstone given our relative budget).

We might just be able to get in about them by bringing our own players through. If we were in a stronger financial position and brought through another golden generation then we'd have a good chance.

Well worth persevering with a youth set up imo, although I think it is far more about people than facilities. Having the best scouts finding the best young talent is more important than any fancy training centre or academy.

matty_f
15-06-2015, 12:36 PM
It's supposed to have been like that since Alex McLeish was involved nearly 20 years ago. I'd be interested in reading what our football strategy is, I guess its written down somewhere but it's obviously commercially sensitive so most fans would never see it.

To go back to the original point though, I'd guess a "youth set up" is possibly defined in our licensing conditions by the SFA.

I think the plan is George Craig's brief, we haven't had someone in his role prior to now, AFAIK.

matty_f
15-06-2015, 12:36 PM
If you leave our current predicament to one side for a moment you would have to say that our ultimate aim is to be challenging at the top end of the premier league.

We aren't going to be able to buy a team capable of challenging the OF as their financial muscle will ultimately see us off (although I would like to see us do a better job of competing with Ross County and St Johnstone given our relative budget).

We might just be able to get in about them by bringing our own players through. If we were in a stronger financial position and brought through another golden generation then we'd have a good chance.

Well worth persevering with a youth set up imo, although I think it is far more about people than facilities. Having the best scouts finding the best young talent is more important than any fancy training centre or academy.

Good post. :agree:

Brightside
15-06-2015, 01:15 PM
The club are just about to set up their own community club based at East Mains which is separate from the youth set up, so the club obviously feel that it's important to connect with youth football in Scotland.

?? What does this mean Oz? Setting up another club separate to the youth team? I don't understand this.....they already have links in place now with a load of the youth clubs in Edinburgh.

Purple & Green
15-06-2015, 01:46 PM
I think the plan is George Craig's brief, we haven't had someone in his role prior to now, AFAIK.

Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

matty_f
15-06-2015, 01:50 PM
Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

I think George Craig has overall responsibility now, AFAIK, he brought in Eddie May as Academy Coaching Manager, and Joe McBride as U20's Development Coach and they will be there to help implement George's strategy IMHO.

Smartie
15-06-2015, 01:52 PM
Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?


I think we are attempting to evolve into a position of strength where we can withstand any individual leaving. You find the best person for the job, put them in place and let it evolve from there without it having too unsettling an impact. To be honest, given the relative size of our club imo we should be expecting and hoping for people to leave. It means - generally - that they have been successful. What I really don't want is a "back to the drawing board" root and branch reorganisation every few years, or for it all to have to change very time we recruit a new manager (and that has been every year or so for donkeys).

What would be a disaster would be for us to lose Dempster who in turn wanted Stubbs and his back room staff, who wanted to take our best players and all of our youth development staff and the best youths etc etc. But that would be unlikely.

Haymaker
16-06-2015, 10:00 AM
?? What does this mean Oz? Setting up another club separate to the youth team? I don't understand this.....they already have links in place now with a load of the youth clubs in Edinburgh.

It could be a community club where players of talent can be looked after and monitored by our coaches easily but maybe arent quite good/strong/able to fit into the academy just yet.

Brightside
16-06-2015, 11:28 AM
It could be a community club where players of talent can be looked after and monitored by our coaches easily but maybe arent quite good/strong/able to fit into the academy just yet.

I hope not....that's the purpose of all the youth clubs. Really no need for Hibs to have another boys Community Club. That will only damage youth clubs.

madhatter
16-06-2015, 11:33 AM
Yes - we need one.

CockneyRebel
16-06-2015, 11:45 AM
[/B]

I think we are attempting to evolve into a position of strength where we can withstand any individual leaving. You find the best person for the job, put them in place and let it evolve from there without it having too unsettling an impact. To be honest, given the relative size of our club imo we should be expecting and hoping for people to leave. It means - generally - that they have been successful. What I really don't want is a "back to the drawing board" root and branch reorganisation every few years, or for it all to have to change very time we recruit a new manager (and that has been every year or so for donkeys).

What would be a disaster would be for us to lose Dempster who in turn wanted Stubbs and his back room staff, who wanted to take our best players and all of our youth development staff and the best youths etc etc. But that would be unlikely.

I see where your'e coming from with having a structure that remains in place whenever anyone decides to leave. My only concern is that if/when AS goes he takes his pals with them. An incoming manager would usually come by himself or with an assistant yet we could possibly lose 3 or four staff in one go and it may not be that easy to install a team of comparable talent. If AS went off on his own then the structure just needs to replace him but if his team goes with him then it's much more difficult. Having said that I do feel that the "structure" is the best way forward and hope that our set up will attract the right calibre of applicant when necessary.

liamh2202
16-06-2015, 11:53 AM
Craig is head of football operations, John Park was head of youth development but probably their roles had considerable overlap?

I suppose I think the problem is implementation rather than strategy, and you'd have to be pretty churlish to think Hibs don't try to implement to the best of their ability.

Which leads onto, if we are improving, and we are in the right direction what happens if our head of football operations leaves?

Its the same job with a new title john park was head of the while youth setup alongside being chief scout for the first team, bill hendrie then got the job when john went to Celtic

Ozyhibby
16-06-2015, 12:05 PM
I hope not....that's the purpose of all the youth clubs. Really no need for Hibs to have another boys Community Club. That will only damage youth clubs.

I agree. I have only heard a rumour just now so it would be unfair to judge just now but I believe it is just to be a community club which will compete with all the others.

MB62
16-06-2015, 12:16 PM
My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

GreenCastle
16-06-2015, 12:54 PM
Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

Brightside
16-06-2015, 02:34 PM
My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

Eh? We have not let any of those players go.

MB62
16-06-2015, 02:47 PM
Eh? We have not let any of those players go.

Rumour, which is why I said 'apparently'.

Brightside
16-06-2015, 03:10 PM
Rumour, which is why I said 'apparently'.

Its not though....only person that has been talked about on msg boards is Stanton to Dundee. There has been no speculation about Handling and Harris. Any possible loan deal for the 3 of them will come once pre season training has kicked off.

offshorehibby
16-06-2015, 03:17 PM
Was there not rumours doing the rounds a couple of weeks back about a tie up with Edina Hibs.

Eyrie
16-06-2015, 06:50 PM
My point was, we have apparently just allowed to let go, three of our brightest prospects in Harris, Handling & Stanton but have signed two others in Boyle & Fyvie (with possibly/hopefully McGeouch), players which are all within a year or two of the guys we have spent a lot of time and money on bringing through, just to replace them.
Ok, I hear what is being said about the youth set up being revamped, and maybe this revamp will pay off in the long term, but it is going to be interesting to see if this will be the case or/and if we still sign players of a similar age from other clubs.
As previously said, I have no idea how much we as a club spend on our youth system. My question would be, could we save enough money on not having one and then trying to 'cherry pick' the best of the rest?

Personally, I would love for our team to be filled with lads we have brought through a very successful youth set up but ultimately, if this is not paying dividends for the first team then it is a waste of resources.

If other clubs are able to bring through better youngsters than us who we then cherry pick, then there is no reason why we should not be able to put a youth policy in place that produces players of that level for us.

It's only a waste of resources if it isn't operating properly.

Green Man
16-06-2015, 07:28 PM
What disappoints me is that, when East Mains first opened, I visited and they were talking up the youth program. Players were put up in the QMC residences, bussed in to the training centre every day, given meals and helped with non-football education. This all sounded great - so what happened? Why have we had to change things again?

B.H.F.C
16-06-2015, 07:30 PM
Yes we need a youth policy. It's just been mismanaged for years.

It's not all down to the club. There needs to be a better pathway to the first team though. The jump from the development league to the first team is just too big. The only player, recently, who has regularly been able to do for the first team what he did in the development league is Cummings. Regularly, the likes of Handling and Stanton stroll through games in the 20s but struggle to make a consistent impact in the first team. That said, we are in the championship which does make that jump a fair bit smaller.

offshorehibby
16-06-2015, 07:41 PM
Just noticed this on twitter Re Edina Hibs

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/5502

Viva_Palmeiras
16-06-2015, 07:47 PM
I've been thinking about this for a couple of years now but this close season has just got me asking 'Why are we continually spending money on a youth policy when very few, if any, come through and we just end up signing players from other clubs'?

It's not a wind BTW, it's a serious question.

I have no idea how much the club spends on bringing young players to the club and trying to bring them through our system, ready eventually for first team appearances.
Whatever it is, our success rate of recent years has been all but non existent and the 'big' hopes for this season, Handling, Stanton & Harris have all apparently been told to find themselves another club.
Along with this, we seem to be 'cherry picking' players of a similar age from other clubs, players that we are obviously looking at playing a contributing role in the first team squad for the coming season and not just be sitting on the bench because we need young guys there by the rules.

I know we all like to see our own coming through, but if they are not coming through, then there is a big waste of time and money spent on these guys that could maybe be used better elsewhere.

I'm also a big believer in the fact that clubs DO NOT build for the future as far as the team is concerned. Everything is done for the PRESENT not the next year or year after as nobody knows who is going to be at the club in 6 months time never mind a year or two. We didn't go in to last season to build a team to win the league this season, nor will be building a team now for next year. The squad Stubbs is putting together is to try and win the league this coming season, or if not, to get promoted through the play offs.
On that, if Stubbs does put together a league winning team, then the chances are he will not be with us next season and a new team will have to built again, as happens every year, by most clubs I may add.

It's obviously a controversial thought/opinion and no doubt there will be plenty names get banded about about who has come through recently, Jordon Forster for one. Maybe this is just a frustration about our lack of lads making the step up but if we are now signing young players from other clubs, why bother spending money on our youth system?

Marketing myopia was a seminal work from Levitt in the 1960s. One of the strands was about focusing too much on product and the here and now and ending up with something That's not equipped for the future.

Focusing too much on the here and now may address the immediate concerns and there may be merit in that if you're going down the tubes to worry about which business you are actually in...

It seems to me that we have been victims of focusing too much on the here and now and not building (infrastructure aside) for the future.

In terms of youth how do you expect to appeal to youngsters in the community and beyond if there's no visible route in?
Would we have seen the likes of the golden generation if we were solely focused on here and now and not building from youth (although some may argue the golden generation was thrust apon us b circumstance than by design).

With the rch getting richer and the poor getting poorer football's future for many clubs surely lies within their local community. Is there a better way to demonstrate that than have one of your own within the ranks?

Big clubs within Brazil are sporting associations they have various parts to the organisation schools of samba, football salão and other activities.
Palmeiras are known as the Mancha Verde (the green stain). I like that. But then again I just poured and consumed a large caipirinha after a neat whisky ;)

green&left
17-06-2015, 07:55 AM
Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

Interesting spreadsheet that.

Looking at the ratings and taking into account infrastructure, administration and youth policy the only club with a higher rating than us is Celtic. Off the field is looking solid indeed, just got to get it right on the field this season.

Also noticed we have a gold rating for ER along with Ibrox, Parkhead and Hampden only. (With our big team chums in bronze stood along side Gayfield and Cappielow amongst others).

The goalie
17-06-2015, 08:55 AM
Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

archiebald
17-06-2015, 09:06 AM
I am sure Hibs will intervene if they think there is a problem,but then again should parent's not keep out of it as Hibs are running the show

Brightside
17-06-2015, 09:10 AM
Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

Eddie has been a breath of fresh air. He is exactly what is needed at Hibs at youth level.

Brightside
17-06-2015, 09:12 AM
I am sure Hibs will intervene if they think there is a problem,but then again should parent's not keep out of it as Hibs are running the show

Spot on - loads of players have moved on - mainly because they are nowhere near the level required.

MB62
17-06-2015, 09:13 AM
Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

And that is exactly the point I am trying to make.
How much have we spent overall to POSSIBLY produce 1 or 2 players? How much do we save by scrapping the youth system and then when the manager/scouts spot somebody they like from say Morton, for example, and just pay the fee required if the player is U23?
I know scrapping the youth system is never going to happen, it would probably politically incorrect if nothing else, but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion we don't really need one and there is an alternative way to go that best pay dividends for the club.

dangermouse
17-06-2015, 09:43 AM
Interesting topic.

Several good points already raised.

Would be curious to now the amount of money spent / raised / invested in our youth structure - salaries of staff etc.

As already mentioned there are club licensing standards also.

Check out the link below - then click- current status - Hibs are Gold and Gold 4+

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

So how does the youth set up become 6 star giving us Platinum status?

bigwheel
17-06-2015, 09:46 AM
Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

Thats not the update I get from one of the parents. His view is that Hibs are now much better run. Sure were some kids moved on or who left, but not those that are viewed as the right type. My friend was very complimentary of the coaching and support his boy is is getting at Hibs.

I'm not close to it, I admit, as it's just through a mate - but he seemed very upbeat about the set up.

Andy74
17-06-2015, 10:40 AM
Do we need a youth system? yes and thrice yes!

Has ours been badly run? not at all, what has been badly run is the transition from youth team to first, a number of managers would just not give guys the time required and go and buy or loan dross.
Look across the city they had no choice and their young players are coming good, that is exactly what happened when Brown, O'Connor etc broke into the team we had no money and had to do it and Bobby Williamson brought them in because he had to not because he wanted to, then Tony Mowbray took them a stage further.
Our system was working but you will be lucky if you get 1 or 2 a year out of any system in the country (sometimes you get more followed by none)

As for Eddie May, well things are not well at East Mains he has not won any friends and he has messed up a couple of very good teams with boys walking away all over the place.
I would not be suprised if he is "moved on" im sure if there are any parents of players in the system down there that have had any dealings with him they will back this up.

I'm delighted he has been going in and 'messing' things up - exactly what the place needed.

Andy74
17-06-2015, 10:42 AM
And that is exactly the point I am trying to make.
How much have we spent overall to POSSIBLY produce 1 or 2 players? How much do we save by scrapping the youth system and then when the manager/scouts spot somebody they like from say Morton, for example, and just pay the fee required if the player is U23?
I know scrapping the youth system is never going to happen, it would probably politically incorrect if nothing else, but I'm more and more coming to the conclusion we don't really need one and there is an alternative way to go that best pay dividends for the club.

Where do you get the fees from to pay fro players from other clubs?

It needs to work better of course but if it does you not only get players into your first team that you haven't had to pay for from other clubs but you also open the possibility of getting decent fees over time for players you have brought through.

Ozyhibby
17-06-2015, 10:43 AM
Don't know much about the set up but I find with parents in youth football that if their kids is doing well it's a great set up and if they are not doing well then there is something wrong with the set up.
They don't mean it, it's just a natural reaction.

CapitalGreen
17-06-2015, 11:30 AM
37% of Hibs first team appearances last season were made by graduates of the youth Academy (28% of first team starts).

The goalie
17-06-2015, 11:41 AM
Spot on - loads of players have moved on - mainly because they are nowhere near the level required.

You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

liamh2202
17-06-2015, 11:56 AM
You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

The thing you need to be careful of is how much credit you give other acadamies. Just because they went there doesn't mean they are good enough for hibs. When I went through the academy if a player from our team were to go to rangers or Motherwell that would have been seen as a failure because us and I must say hearts were a far better standard.

I sometimes think our academy deserves a lot more credit . the figures above seem to back that up as this is a somewhat dry spell.

liamh2202
17-06-2015, 12:01 PM
Who is the youth goalie coach now ?

Brightside
17-06-2015, 12:10 PM
You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

IF they are good enough and IF they have the right attitude Eddie May will be a great leader for them. There are still coaches at all levels who I think wont be around much longer, but most are free so harder to replace. Remember most of these guys don't get paid so sometimes they don't actually turn up as they will have other work commitments.

MB62
17-06-2015, 12:13 PM
Where do you get the fees from to pay fro players from other clubs?

It needs to work better of course but if it does you not only get players into your first team that you haven't had to pay for from other clubs but you also open the possibility of getting decent fees over time for players you have brought through.

seriously?

CapitalGreen
17-06-2015, 12:57 PM
You see thats interesting and if they dropped down to say boys club etc i would agree but boys went straight into, Hearts, Rangers, Motherwell etc and more importantly are still there for next season so are the standard.

They did not get cut they walked, we have a truly fantastic striker at 14/15s just now who is walking, our Scotland player at 17s last year has also walked.
14's goalie walked as ttaining has been truly awful for goalies since Thomo was cut by Butcher, this kid was coming from West Lothian area to be faced with no goalie training as the coach (that they got from Hearts and is brutal) had not turned up!

There has been issues for a while and have gotten much, much worse this past year, all very easy to blame the last guy when you are first in, bit harder when it is a year on.

I'm going to hold off and see if these players actually make it in the game before using their departures to criticise the Hibs youth system.

Andy74
17-06-2015, 01:14 PM
seriously?

Seriously, yes. Cutting out the potential income to be made from selling on your own home grown players is going to limit the potential 'wndfall' type influx of cash that you need to go and pay transfer fees.

We haven't paid any for a while, because we haven't been able to sell anyone.

It is one of the fundamental reasons that club s who have had succesful youth programmes have been able to continually develop - you get them in as kids, develop them, benefit from them playing for you for a bit, then sell them on and reinvest the money.

The problem with the model of just continually buying players in as that you tend to need to pay a premium to get good ones, some work, some don't, some you can sell on, some you can't. With the tranfer system as it is bringing players in tends to be on contracts no more than a couple of years and so there is very little scope to make fees. Having your own kids that others see potential in and that you have under contract is one remaining way to make money from the system.

GreenCastle
17-06-2015, 01:29 PM
What we need is to produce the occasional player who will bring in £1 million plus.

This will then hopefully go back into the club.

We have had a recent dry patch recently and we need to get back to bringing on better youths.

I heard that some clubs did get rid of youth set up to focus on 1st team - Hartley supposedly when at Alloa did that and did St Johnstone not do sum thing similar recently ?

The cost to run academies around the UK isn't cheap but all it needs is one or two really good players and running costs etc of somewhere like East Mains are paid for, for a few years to come.

tamig
17-06-2015, 06:02 PM
You make some very good points Matty and I tend to agree with your response, especially about shirking our responsibility to the game, in fact I couldn't argue against anything you said.
I do feel though that we maybe need to look at the whole youth set up we have and decide exactly what we want out of it as a club. Are we looking at this as being the best for Hibernian F.C. or as a sense of responsibility to the game in general?
Presently, I'm not convince that what we get out of it is worth what we are putting in.
I think the new structure that's being put in place after LD and GCs arrivals will see us producing good young talent again in the not too distant future.

Andy Bee
19-06-2015, 03:57 AM
I think the new structure that's being put in place after LD and GCs arrivals will see us producing good young talent again in the not too distant future.

You can mess with the structure all you want but if you aren't getting the best of the kids in then it will never work, it's not the youth policy at fault it's the scouting network department we're failing at.

tamig
19-06-2015, 07:36 PM
You can mess with the structure all you want but if you aren't getting the best of the kids in then it will never work, it's not the youth policy at fault it's the scouting network department we're failing at.

And that has been overhauled as part of the new regime's changes.