Labour

[Colr]

"Taliban New Labour"!!!

They just don't get it. They are going to be in opposition for a long, long time at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/andy-burnham/11673954/Labour-leadership-contest-Cooper-and-Burnham-camps-declare-death-of-Taliban-New-Labour.html

[(((Fergus)))]

Allah be praised!

[lucky]

"Taliban New Labour"!!!

They just don't get it. They are going to be in opposition for a long, long time at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/andy-burnham/11673954/Labour-leadership-contest-Cooper-and-Burnham-camps-declare-death-of-Taliban-New-Labour.html

A non story, a quote from an unnamed source. But being honest if Liz Kendal became leader the party would be finished not that there's much left at the moment.

[GlesgaeHibby]

"Taliban New Labour"!!!

They just don't get it. They are going to be in opposition for a long, long time at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/andy-burnham/11673954/Labour-leadership-contest-Cooper-and-Burnham-camps-declare-death-of-Taliban-New-Labour.html

Glad to see Jeremy Corbyn mustered the support of 35 MPs. Good to have a real left wing alternative running for the leadership. Somebody that is anti-austerity, anti-trident and and anti-Iraq.

[Colr]

Glad to see Jeremy Corbyn mustered the support of 35 MPs. Good to have a real left wing alternative running for the leadership. Somebody that is anti-austerity, anti-trident and and anti-Iraq.

Whatever it is, he's against it.

[snooky]

"Taliban New Labour"!!!

They just don't get it. They are going to be in opposition for a long, long time at this rate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/andy-burnham/11673954/Labour-leadership-contest-Cooper-and-Burnham-camps-declare-death-of-Taliban-New-Labour.html

Especially coming from the Telegraph with its left-wing sympathies. :wink:

[Stranraer]

Now that Corbyn is standing it might be somewhat interesting. He wasn't booed by the Trade Unionists but most likely Burnham will win and Labour will lose again in 2020.

[Colr]

Now that Corbyn is standing it might be somewhat interesting. He wasn't booed by the Trade Unionists but most likely Burnham will win and Labour will lose again in 2020.

I was passing through parliament square the other day and Corbyn was addressing a wee demonstration.

According to him, the migrants drowning in the med are victims of our xenophobic culture.

I didn't hang about to listen to any more.

[marinello59]

Glad to see Jeremy Corbyn mustered the support of 35 MPs. Good to have a real left wing alternative running for the leadership. Somebody that is anti-austerity, anti-trident and and anti-Iraq.

The SNP and Tories would be delighted if Corbyn won. It's centre right parties like them that win elections, genuine left wing parties are unelectable.

[RyeSloan]

Now that Corbyn is standing it might be somewhat interesting. He wasn't booed by the Trade Unionists but most likely Burnham will win and Labour will lose again in 2020.

Not sure whoever wins this riveting race will stand in 2020....I reckon Labour have a bit more turmoil to come before they find a leader and a direction to take them into another GE.

[ronaldo7]

Not sure whoever wins this riveting race will stand in 2020....I reckon Labour have a bit more turmoil to come before they find a leader and a direction to take them into another GE.

Labour are finding it difficult to find a leader as they're all Abstaining.:wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Tories joining Labour to vote for Corbyn. (http://newsthump.com/2015/06/16/tory-voters-flock-to-elect-really-left-wing-leader-of-labour-party/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork)

[Beefster]

The SNP and Tories would be delighted if Corbyn won. It's centre right parties like them that win elections, genuine left wing parties are unelectable.

That can't be right, M59. I read on here that the SNP were the only left wing party left to vote for.

[Smartie]

A strong leader and a positive message will go a long way and much further than just left/centre/right wing politics.

Labour had a dire UK leader, a dire Scottish leader, mixed wishy-washy crap policies that in attempting to appeal to many ended up appealing to way too few. They lost heavily in Scotland, lost heavily in middle England and it's hard to see them making a dent in any of these regions any time soon.

They might sort themselves out and turn it around but I don't see it happening within the next decade and none of the prospective candidates make me think any differently.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

You only have to try and picture their last leader or any of the 4 candidates as PM to see how much trouble the Labour Party are in. The bitchy comments in the leadership contest just shows how shambolic they are.

Their only policy in their last election campaign seemed to be to disagree with the Tories and increase taxes. People expect something a bit more constructive. That combined with the way the Blair years are viewed these days suggests they could be out of power for sometime.

[Colr]

You only have to try and picture their last leader or any of the 4 candidates as PM to see how much trouble the Labour Party are in. The bitchy comments in the leadership contest just shows how shambolic they are.

Their only policy in their last election campaign seemed to be to disagree with the Tories and increase taxes. People expect something a bit more constructive. That combined with the way the Blair years are viewed these days suggests they could be out of power for sometime.


Good piece by Nick Robinson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33180821

Agree with this:-

When under fire Blair used to enjoy asking "What have Labour ever done for us?" (a rip off of the famous Monty Python line about the Romans). He would then list the introduction of the minimum wage, tax credits, record investment in new schools, hospitals and children's centres and so the list would go on).

Listen now in Labour Party meetings and you'd be forgiven for thinking that all he ever did was invade Iraq and all Gordon Brown did was try to remove him from office before becoming the first leader who the party should have removed before he went on to lose an election.

[SHODAN]

There is nothing to separate Liz Kendall from the Tories, and Yvette Cooper ruled out any agreement with the SNP over anything.

If either of them win you can kiss goodbye any Labour revival in Scotland. They will be obliterated in 2016.

[RyeSloan]

There is nothing to separate Liz Kendall from the Tories, and Yvette Cooper ruled out any agreement with the SNP over anything. If either of them win you can kiss goodbye any Labour revival in Scotland. They will be obliterated in 2016.

And there is lies the problem. Any hint of someone daring to suggest that at least some centre right policies might actually make sense is a red Tory....anyone suggesting leftish policies is a reborn Michael foot and the SNP have positioned themselves (in the electorates mind at least) centre left leaving Labour with no where to go in Scotland. In the rest of the UK it's clear the electorate needed New Labour to reelect them so anything less would seemed doomed.

Really a party with no where to go and no idea how to get there!

[Big Ed]

And there is lies the problem. Any hint of someone daring to suggest that at least some centre right policies might actually make sense is a red Tory....anyone suggesting leftish policies is a reborn Michael foot and the SNP have positioned themselves (in the electorates mind at least) centre left leaving Labour with no where to go in Scotland. In the rest of the UK it's clear the electorate needed New Labour to reelect them so anything less would seemed doomed.

Really a party with no where to go and no idea how to get there!

What would make someone leave their home, walk down to the Polling Station and put a X next to Labour?

A popular local candidate perhaps or, more likely, simply just not wanting the Tories in again. Short of that, I can't understand why.

In opposition, they passed up numerous open goals (e.g. education, energy, economy etc.) so why would they be any more effective in Government?

It's years since I voted Labour but I find myself actually getting quite angry at how dreadful they are.

The stuff they spout about saving the NHS is an insult to anyone's intelligence, but that appeared to me to be their sole policy in May.

Their new leader will need to come forward with proposals and ideas which the Party can believe in and unite behind.

Given that Corbyn has no chance: the other three don't give me the impression that they're capable of that.

[Pretty Boy]

Labour needs a clear idea of what they stand for, communicate it well and stick with it. It really is that simple. What is n't simple is balancing a socially conscious ideology that references the left wing past with electable centrist policies that people actually vote for.

There decision to abstain from voting on the Scotland Bill the other day was bizarre, not so much missing an open goal but forgetting to pack their boots and not even making it onto the park. The parliamentary party made a decision not to vote on legislation they were instrumental in bringing into the house. That smacks of a party that is listless and is voting, or not, based on a petty rivalry with another party as opposed to attempting to keep a promise they made to the electorate in heartlands they desperately need to win back.

[hibsbollah]

The SNP and Tories would be delighted if Corbyn won. It's centre right parties like them that win elections, genuine left wing parties are unelectable.

Evidence from other countries suggest the Left are winning elections all over the place. And I'm always amazed how often the 83 election is dragged up to demonstrate that Brits could never, ever, vote for a 'socialist' manifesto. It was one moment in time, Labour had just been shattered by the SDP defections and infighting.

[TRC]

Evidence from other countries suggest the Left are winning elections all over the place. And I'm always amazed how often the 83 election is dragged up to demonstrate that Brits could never, ever, vote for a 'socialist' manifesto. It was one moment in time, Labour had just been shattered by the SDP defections and infighting.

Sweden has a left-centre government no party has a majority in the house. However the rise of the right wing party is staggering now the third largest party in sweden. But the Swedish equivalent of Labour are in power in a very weak government, couldn't pass their budget last year, because of the far rights vote going with the opposition. Here's a couple of links about it.
http://m.thelocal.se/20150618/swedish-nationalist-party-reaches-new-record-peak
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2018

[GlesgaeHibby]

The SNP and Tories would be delighted if Corbyn won. It's centre right parties like them that win elections, genuine left wing parties are unelectable.

Can't agree with that. Surely it makes more sense to target the millions of non-voters than to try and win over tory voters in marginals across England? I think there is an appetite for a real left of centre alternative across the UK.

[lucky]

Labour are in a mess, to win elections in England they need to have strong policies on economy, immigration and welfare but here in Scotland they need to be more left wing. The difficulty is that the SNP have been more slick and have convinced the electorate that they are the voice of scotland.

Only this week Sturgeon & McKay said that putting Calmac out to tender was not privatisation!! They must think the Scots are mugs and will swallow anything they say. This is the sort of action and statement that a half decent opposition party should be all over. But Labour have dithered. As a party they need radical leadership and policies but more importantly they must have their own identity

[Stranraer]

Labour are in a mess, to win elections in England they need to have strong policies on economy, immigration and welfare but here in Scotland they need to be more left wing. The difficulty is that the SNP have been more slick and have convinced the electorate that they are the voice of scotland.

Only this week Sturgeon & McKay said that putting Calmac out to tender was not privatisation!! They must think the Scots are mugs and will swallow anything they say. This is the sort of action and statement that a half decent opposition party should be all over. But Labour have dithered. As a party they need radical leadership and policies but more importantly they must have their own identity

Who would you like to see as Scottish leader?

[Hibrandenburg]

If labour can't win support during a depression and times of austerity then Thatcherism has won the day. The cream at the top is so thick that it's in danger of becoming solid and what lies underneath is nearly just water. If things continue as they are our system will break down. If the labour party under these conditions can't win support then it'll be a long time coming.

[marinello59]

Labour are in a mess, to win elections in England they need to have strong policies on economy, immigration and welfare but here in Scotland they need to be more left wing. The difficulty is that the SNP have been more slick and have convinced the electorate that they are the voice of scotland.

Only this week Sturgeon & McKay said that putting Calmac out to tender was not privatisation!! They must think the Scots are mugs and will swallow anything they say. This is the sort of action and statement that a half decent opposition party should be all over. But Labour have dithered. As a party they need radical leadership and policies but more importantly they must have their own identity

The SNP are increasingly equating Scotland with the Party. It's the same arrogance we used to get from a dominant Labour Party. They are getting away with wrapping a saltire around everything. I already regret giving them my vote. The sooner Labour and the other parties get their act together the better.

[marinello59]

Can't agree with that. Surely it makes more sense to target the millions of non-voters than to try and win over tory voters in marginals across England? I think there is an appetite for a real left of centre alternative across the UK.

The SNP did OK winning over Tory voters in their North East heartlands. And they increased their grip in Scotland by targeting middle class voters. Do you really think they would have done so well if they had proposed policies that would genuinely re-distribute the wealth of our country?

[Purple & Green]

The SNP are increasingly equating Scotland with the Party. It's the same arrogance we used to get from a dominant Labour Party. They are getting away with wrapping a saltire around everything. I already regret giving them my vote. The sooner Labour and the other parties get their act together the better.

I have grave concerns about snp direction at local level, and lack of effective opposition due to the omnishambles that labour had become. The snp continue to run riot on social media, but aren't making headway in the independence argument. I don't see where this is going - are the snp going to become the ruling party for a decade and their key policy rejected? I don't see that they will win a second referendum in the foreseeable and that will kill the subject - where then for the likes of me, one of the 10,000 long term fundamental nationalist members?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonnyboy]

Good piece by Nick Robinson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33180821

Agree with this:-

When under fire Blair used to enjoy asking "What have Labour ever done for us?" (a rip off of the famous Monty Python line about the Romans). He would then list the introduction of the minimum wage, tax credits, record investment in new schools, hospitals and children's centres and so the list would go on).

Listen now in Labour Party meetings and you'd be forgiven for thinking that all he ever did was invade Iraq and all Gordon Brown did was try to remove him from office before becoming the first leader who the party should have removed before he went on to lose an election.

Is that the same Nick Robinson who was once Chairman or Secretary of the Conservative group at his Uni? :greengrin

[degenerated]

Labour are in a mess, to win elections in England they need to have strong policies on economy, immigration and welfare but here in Scotland they need to be more left wing. The difficulty is that the SNP have been more slick and have convinced the electorate that they are the voice of scotland.

Only this week Sturgeon & McKay said that putting Calmac out to tender was not privatisation!! They must think the Scots are mugs and will swallow anything they say. This is the sort of action and statement that a half decent opposition party should be all over. But Labour have dithered. As a party they need radical leadership and policies but more importantly they must have their own identity
We've been down the calmac tender thing before. It was tendered to comply with European competition law, that move was backed by Labour. Nothing was privatised and nobody got hurt.
Isn't this exactly the same again but with the SNP and Labour having changed their bun throwing position at the table.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4246672.stm

[marinello59]

We've been down the calmac tender thing before. It was tendered to comply with European competition law, that move was backed by Labour. Nothing was privatised and nobody got hurt.
Isn't this exactly the same again but with the SNP and Labour having changed their bun throwing position at the table.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4246672.stm

It's pretty sad that neither party seems able to see that the real focus here should be the service provided to our outlying communities. That seems to come behind bickering over what constitutes privatisation. Far too many of our islands are getting a shoddy second rate service but our politicians either don't know or simply don't care enough to look at radically overhauling service provision.
It's not true though to say that nobody got hurt. Nothing changed so nothing improved meaning some of our Island's still have to carry the economic and social burden of poor service provision.

[allmodcons]

The SNP did OK winning over Tory voters in their North East heartlands. And they increased their grip in Scotland by targeting middle class voters. Do you really think they would have done so well if they had proposed policies that would genuinely re-distribute the wealth of our country?

Your perception that the SNP wins disaffected Tory votes up here in the NE is laughable.

Outside of Aberdeen, the Labour Party has never been performed well in the NE, so the only social democratic alternative was, and is, the SNP.

I consider myself middle class (though my parents were working class). I've never voted Conservative. For you to suggest that the SNP vote in Moray and Banff & Buchan comes from disaffected Tories is just plain wrong.

I firmly believe the SNP to be the only credible social democratic alternative to the right wing Conservative Party. For you to equate the SNP vote up here to disaffected Tories shows a lack of understanding of the politics of NE Scotland.

[marinello59]

Your perception that the SNP wins disaffected Tory votes up here in the NE is laughable.

Outside of Aberdeen, the Labour Party has never been performed well in the NE, so the only social democratic alternative was, and is, the SNP.

I consider myself middle class (though my parents were working class). I've never voted Conservative. For you to suggest that the SNP vote in Moray and Banff & Buchan comes from disaffected Tories is just plain wrong.

I firmly believe the SNP to be the only credible social democratic alternative to the right wing Conservative Party. For you to equate the SNP vote up here to disaffected Tories shows a lack of understanding of the politics of NE Scotland.

Sorry, that's not what I said.
Banff and Buchan was solid Tory for years until Salmond appeared. You obviously don't remember Albert MacQuarrie, the Buchan Bulldog, who represented the constituency. :greengrin
The old Banffshire constituency was also solid Tory until former Tory candidate Hamish Watt won it for the SNP. I was responding to the suggestion that there was little point in Labour targeting Tory votes when history shows us there is every point in them chasing those votes down.

[allmodcons]

Sorry, that's not what I said.
Banff and Buchan was solid Tory for years until Salmond appeared. You obviously don't remember Albert MacQuarrie, the Buchan Bulldog, who represented the constituency. :greengrin
The old Banffshire constituency was also solid Tory until former Tory candidate Hamish Watt won it for the SNP. I was responding to the suggestion that there was little point in Labour targeting Tory votes when history shows us there is every point in them chasing those votes down.

You're living in the past M59 :greengrin

I was 9 years old when Hamish Watt won Banffshire. Politics then was a lot diferent to what it is now up here in the rural NE.

McQuarrie lost his seat for 2 reasons. The first being that Salmond was a formidable opponent and the second because of the Thatcher Government and the effect its right wing policies had on every area of Scotland.

When Salmond defeated Albert McQuarrie he was, at that time, without doubt, a leading left wing thinker in the SNP.

[GlesgaeHibby]

The SNP did OK winning over Tory voters in their North East heartlands. And they increased their grip in Scotland by targeting middle class voters. Do you really think they would have done so well if they had proposed policies that would genuinely re-distribute the wealth of our country?

I do. There is a real appetite for a credible left-wing alternative. No wonder so many are disillusioned when there is so little to separate Labour from the Conservatives. Give them a credible party to vote for and they have a good chance IMO.

[marinello59]

I do. There is a real appetite for a credible left-wing alternative. No wonder so many are disillusioned when there is so little to separate Labour from the Conservatives. Give them a credible party to vote for and they have a good chance IMO.

There's very little to truly separate the SNP from Labour either.

[RyeSloan]

It's pretty sad that neither party seems able to see that the real focus here should be the service provided to our outlying communities. That seems to come behind bickering over what constitutes privatisation. Far too many of our islands are getting a shoddy second rate service but our politicians either don't know or simply don't care enough to look at radically overhauling service provision. It's not true though to say that nobody got hurt. Nothing changed so nothing improved meaning some of our Island's still have to carry the economic and social burden of poor service provision.

I've no idea on the quality of service or how iit could be improved but CalMac is a strange beat...£100m a year subsidy plus unspecified capital costs (the new ferry seems to be getting called out at £70m!) seems like quite a reasonable chunk of public change.

So a grown up sensible debate on how the service is funded, what it is being funded for and if it provides value for the islanders and the Scottish tax payer would seem to be long overdue. As ever though with publicly run and supported services like this it seems the focus is more on political point scoring and avoiding the hard questions than actually providing an efficient, value for money service from the users and payers perspective.

[marinello59]

You're living in the past M59 :greengrin

I was 9 years old when Hamish Watt won Banffshire. Politics then was a lot diferent to what it is now up here in the rural NE.

McQuarrie lost his seat for 2 reasons. The first being that Salmond was a formidable opponent and the second because of the Thatcher Government and the effect its right wing policies had on every area of Scotland.

When Salmond defeated Albert McQuarrie he was, at that time, without doubt, a leading left wing thinker in the SNP.

What's wrong with that? :greengrin
If you think that Salmond won in Banffshire at that time because he was seen as a left wing thinker then I would suggest that you are mistaken. He caused consternation amongst local activists when he declared himself to be a Socialist. The Labour party at that time was still seen as a left wing party and it regularly came close to losing their deposit. Thatcher was not that unpopular in rural Scotland at all. Salmond was a young fresh faced opponent but those party members surrounding him in Banffshire were far from the cuddly trendy young lefties the SNP likes to pretend they are now. Anti-English sentiment was pretty unrestrained. Salmond to his credit stamped that out.

[allmodcons]

What's wrong with that? :greengrin
If you think that Salmond won in Banffshire at that time because he was seen as a left wing thinker then I would suggest that you are mistaken. He caused consternation amongst local activists when he declared himself to be a Socialist. The Labour party at that time was still seen as a left wing party and it regularly came close to losing their deposit. Thatcher was not that unpopular in rural Scotland at all. Salmond was a young fresh faced opponent but those party members surrounding him in Banffshire were far from the cuddly trendy young lefties the SNP likes to pretend they are now. Anti-English sentiment was pretty unrestrained. Salmond to his credit stamped that out.

You're well wide of the mark here M59.

I was one of those cuddly trendy young lefties up here in 1987 (aged 20 in fact). Your comments regarding unrestrained anti English sentiment are completely unfounded and not something that I encountered a great deal up here during the 1980's. Though I can say, hand on heart, that I quite literally hated Thatcher and all she stood for.

What you're failing to grasp is that the SNP were, in those days, the left of centre alternative to the Conservatives in Banff & Buchan and Moray.

You appear to be suggesting that almost all of the electorate in this neck of the woods are Conservative minded? This wasn't the case back in the 1980's and is, in fact, still not the case now.

Make no mistake, there is wealth up here in certain areas but, if your suggesting that places like Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Elgin are awash with money, think again.

[marinello59]

You're well wide of the mark here M59.

I was one of those cuddly trendy young lefties up here in 1987 (aged 20 in fact). Your comments regarding unrestrained anti English sentiment are completely unfounded and not something that I encountered a great deal up here during the 1980's. Though I can say, hand on heart, that I quite literally hated Thatcher and all she stood for.

What you're failing to grasp is that the SNP were, in those days, the left of centre alternative to the Conservatives in Banff & Buchan and Moray.

You appear to be suggesting that almost all of the electorate in this neck of the woods are Conservative minded? This wasn't the case back in the 1980's and is, in fact, still not the case now.

Make no mistake, there is wealth up here in certain areas but, if your suggesting that places like Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Elgin are awash with money, think again.

Unrestrained anti English sentiment first. You must have been lucky or blind if you didn't encounter it. My father who has lived the vast majority of his 80 years in Scotland was regularly described to me as an English *******. I was an English loving ******* for voting Labour apparently. It was there and it was much more prevalent than it is now and I give credit to Salmond for that.
I stick by my assertion that the North east was natural conservative country. I know it's hard for you to acknowledge that the SNP could provide a home to people who could also vote Tory but it did back then. We'll never agree on that one though. :greengrin
Yet again you are putting words in to my mouth. Nowhere have I suggested that Fraserburgh, Peterhead and Elgin are awash with money. Although the decline in Fraserburgh and Peterhead hadn't begun as the fishing industry was still doing OK back then whilst Peterhead was also starting to benefit from the oil industry. Changed days now for both towns sadly.

[xyz23jc]

There's very little to truly separate the SNP from Labour either.

56 seats says otherwise! ;>

[marinello59]

56 seats says otherwise! ;>

:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

56 seats says otherwise! ;>

:faf:

Think it's 55 but still brilliant comeback.

[marinello59]

:faf:

Think it's 55 but still brilliant comeback.

It was funny.
Being serious for a moment, hopefully the response to this from the RMT will firm up the SNP's claim to be the new party of the Left.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-snp-trade-union-group-statement-on-calmac/

[RyeSloan]

It was funny. Being serious for a moment, hopefully the response to this from the RMT will firm up the SNP's claim to be the new party of the Left. http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-snp-trade-union-group-statement-on-calmac/

Not sure what the RMT's beef is with the statement to be honest.

I'm also not sure why there is such a problem with tendering for the contract...it would be a strange world if you just assumed the service and costs you currently had are optimum just because, urmm, just because.

[marinello59]

Not sure what the RMT's beef is with the statement to be honest.

I'm also not sure why there is such a problem with tendering for the contract...it would be a strange world if you just assumed the service and costs you currently had are optimum just because, urmm, just because.

I'm not questioning the tendering process etc. I'm not making any comments on the rights and wrongs of the Unions case. However they have asked a pretty good question of a party than many here and elsewhere say are occupying the ground of the old fashioned Labour Party in Scotland.

[degenerated]

I'm not questioning the tendering process etc. I'm not making any comments on the rights and wrongs of the Unions case. However they have asked a pretty good question of a party than many here and elsewhere say are occupying the ground of the old fashioned Labour Party in Scotland.

Old fashioned Labour party, you're showing your age now 😁

[marinello59]

Old fashioned Labour party, you're showing your age now 

Sadly. :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Evidence from other countries suggest the Left are winning elections all over the place. And I'm always amazed how often the 83 election is dragged up to demonstrate that Brits could never, ever, vote for a 'socialist' manifesto. It was one moment in time, Labour had just been shattered by the SDP defections and infighting.
That's it in a nutshell for me. Labour need to offer a radical alternative to what we have with the Tories. A weak coalition government with an austerity program just won a majority during a time when people should be on the streets fighting for more equality.
Im starting to think that it's to late for Labour now, they've lost Scotland and if the greens can get their act together down south then they could find themselves going the way of the Liberal party.

[steakbake]

The coalition was a weak and largely unpopular government. Fortunately for Cameron, he was up against a very weak opposition: Miliband was a poor choice for people to have to make. The media also ran riot on SNP scare stories, but I think the more the scare stories happen and the more hysterical they become, the less traction they'll have. Yesterday's Times Editorial was quite a remarkable piece of throwing the toys out of the pram. Despite that, and despite all being said, within the electoral system we have and whatever is said about the number of those who didn't vote for them, the SNP hammered their opponents at the election. It was a rout that will not be majorly overturned at least in the next election and possibly only partially in the one after that.

It may be too early to say, but I think Labour are finished in Scotland if a similar rout happens in 2016. I have no reason to think at this moment, that it won't. I think Dugdale is a very capable person, but in no way do I think she has a movement behind her that has any momentum. If the SNP continue to dominate - which they look set to do - I can see the other parties being forced into a position of banding together: a new superparty, defined by it's opposition to the SNP and it's support for the Union. Is this really so unthinkable? A federalised Labour Party might work, but while Scottish Labour still applies the Bain Principle (directly oppose anything the SNP say, regardless), I think they'll not get out of their rut. They may find that at the end of the day, they'll have to be Better Together and thereafter, any and every election becomes a re-run of the referendum and as was often said by the No camp, all it takes is for Yes to win once.

[Just Alf]

The coalition was a weak and largely unpopular government. Fortunately for Cameron, he was up against a very weak opposition: Miliband was a poor choice for people to have to make. The media also ran riot on SNP scare stories, but I think the more the scare stories happen and the more hysterical they become, the less traction they'll have. Yesterday's Times Editorial was quite a remarkable piece of throwing the toys out of the pram. Despite that, and despite all being said, within the electoral system we have and whatever is said about the number of those who didn't vote for them, the SNP hammered their opponents at the election. It was a rout that will not be majorly overturned at least in the next election and possibly only partially in the one after that.

It may be too early to say, but I think Labour are finished in Scotland if a similar rout happens in 2016. I have no reason to think at this moment, that it won't. I think Dugdale is a very capable person, but in no way do I think she has a movement behind her that has any momentum. If the SNP continue to dominate - which they look set to do - I can see the other parties being forced into a position of banding together: a new superparty, defined by it's opposition to the SNP and it's support for the Union. Is this really so unthinkable? A federalised Labour Party might work, but while Scottish Labour still applies the Bain Principle (directly oppose anything the SNP say, regardless), I think they'll not get out of their rut. They may find that at the end of the day, they'll have to be Better Together and thereafter, any and every election becomes a re-run of the referendum and as was often said by the No camp, all it takes is for Yes to win once.

Bit in bold.... so many (ex)Labour supporters come out with that in discussions that it's unbelievable, I just cant believe Labour don't see it.... in fact cant remember the precise vote but did Labour not abstain from a vote in Westminster recently because the SNP were voting for it and yet it was something originally instigated by Labour!

[Godsahibby]

Scottish Labour and 'clypegate', a 51 page file they have put together on what that call cybernats. SNP members and supporters who have been mean to them on Twitter. A file has been given to the Sunday papers.

Twitter users in the dossier for a mix of things from calling people a bit or traitor to supporting a Scottish Republican Army!

Surely Scottish Labour must have something better to do with their time right now!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish Labour and 'clypegate', a 51 page file they have put together on what that call cybernats. SNP members and supporters who have been mean to them on Twitter. A file has been given to the Sunday papers.

Twitter users in the dossier for a mix of things from calling people a bit or traitor to supporting a Scottish Republican Army!

Surely Scottish Labour must have something better to do with their time right now!!


That's not a dossier, that is their 2016 Election Manifesto. Pictures of Labour candidates holding up their mobile phone showing a tweet and them all looking shocked.

[Beefster]

Won't the Labour dossier just assist Sturgeon in her crackdown of the SNP-supporting online trolls?

There's a whiff of hypocrisy in the complaints about Labour IMHO because, IIRC, the SNP did pretty much the same thing with non-SNP supporting trolls at some point in the referendum campaign.

Not that hypocrisy is common in political 'debate' in Scotland...

[marinello59]

Won't the Labour dossier just assist Sturgeon in her crackdown of the SNP-supporting online trolls?

There's a whiff of hypocrisy in the complaints about Labour IMHO because, IIRC, the SNP did pretty much the same thing with non-SNP supporting trolls at some point in the referendum campaign.

Not that hypocrisy is common in political 'debate' in Scotland...

What debate?
The PARTY is always 100% correct.

[Just Alf]

Scottish Labour and 'clypegate', a 51 page file they have put together on what that call cybernats. SNP members and supporters who have been mean to them on Twitter. A file has been given to the Sunday papers.

Twitter users in the dossier for a mix of things from calling people a bit or traitor to supporting a Scottish Republican Army!

Surely Scottish Labour must have something better to do with their time right now!!

They've got have been infiltrated by Nationalists surely! All this focus on negativity rather than their own policies seems to be pushing Labour's more "normal" support away.

[lucky]

Scottish Labour and 'clypegate', a 51 page file they have put together on what that call cybernats. SNP members and supporters who have been mean to them on Twitter. A file has been given to the Sunday papers.

Twitter users in the dossier for a mix of things from calling people a bit or traitor to supporting a Scottish Republican Army!

Surely Scottish Labour must have something better to do with their time right now!!

Sorry but that's just not true. Scottish Labour have a staff of 10 and they don't have the time or resources to spend on a project like that

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry but that's just not true. Scottish Labour have a staff of 10 and they don't have the time or resources to spend on a project like that

It was all over Twitter last night. If it isn't true why have they not denied it.

[Beefster]

It was all over Twitter last night. If it isn't true why have they not denied it.

Because if they responded to ever bit of rubbish on Twatter then maybe they'd need three times the staff and it's the weekend?

[marinello59]

It was all over Twitter last night. If it isn't true why have they not denied it.

:rotflmao:

[lucky]

It was all over Twitter last night. If it isn't true why have they not denied it.

Just as the porn attack on FB was only aimed at nationalists. Just because it's on social media does not make it true.

I can guarantee you 100% that it's not true, but you believe what you wish

[degenerated]

Sorry but that's just not true. Scottish Labour have a staff of 10 and they don't have the time or resources to spend on a project like that
Are you sure? It's out there for all to see as is the fact that it was pulled together by Blair McDougall.

[Mr Grieves]

Just as the porn attack on FB was only aimed at nationalists. Just because it's on social media does not make it true.

I can guarantee you 100% that it's not true, but you believe what you wish

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/labour-dossier-names-50-cybernats-1-3814855




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mr Grieves]

:rotflmao:


Because if they responded to ever bit of rubbish on Twatter then maybe they'd need three times the staff and it's the weekend?

It's true.

And when Golden Fleece says it was all over twitter, we're talking about journalists from a number of newspapers discussing it - not just randoms.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Sorry but that's just not true. Scottish Labour have a staff of 10 and they don't have the time or resources to spend on a project like that


It was all over Twitter last night. If it isn't true why have they not denied it.


Because if they responded to ever bit of rubbish on Twatter then maybe they'd need three times the staff and it's the weekend?


http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/labour-dossier-names-50-cybernats-1-3814855

That is gonna be one helluva overtime claim :greengrin

[degenerated]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/labour-dossier-names-50-cybernats-1-3814855

That is gonna be one helluva overtime claim :greengrin
They're out and about again today 😁
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/53a00ea34d0cb8b168ab069e8354aa88.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

They're out and about again today 
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/28/53a00ea34d0cb8b168ab069e8354aa88.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD-q5h3b7gc

[marinello59]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/labour-dossier-names-50-cybernats-1-3814855

That is gonna be one helluva overtime claim :greengrin

After having read through a load of drivel on Twitter and elsewhere it's still not clear if this is a Labour dossier or a Blair Macdougal dossier. Either way somebody needs to get a thicker skin, some of the so called abuse is offensive but hardly vile. Sad stuff.
The response on Twitter and spinsoverscotland is just as pathetic. The childish rush to score points is no better than the original document. Pitiful stuff from both sides, if this is what currently constitutes debate then the referendum really has left us a sadder place.

[Moulin Yarns]

Very good article in the Herald today. Looking at both sides.

[degenerated]

Very good article in the Herald today. Looking at both sides.
Just finished reading it. They appear to be the only paper to recognise that this isn't just confined to Nationalists. Labour have a cheek with this given that they have tolerated serial ******** Ian smart and his behaviour for long enough.

Britnatabusebot on Twitter was always worth a look at last year as it picked up some horrendous stuff.

[degenerated]

After having read through a load of drivel on Twitter and elsewhere it's still not clear if this is a Labour dossier or a Blair Macdougal dossier. Either way somebody needs to get a thicker skin, some of the so called abuse is offensive but hardly vile. Sad stuff.
The response on Twitter and spinsoverscotland is just as pathetic. The childish rush to score points is no better than the original document. Pitiful stuff from both sides, if this is what currently constitutes debate then the referendum really has left us a sadder place.
I think the key difference is that wings is just a guy with a website whereas Labour wanted us to believe they were fit to run the country.

[marinello59]

I think the key difference is that wings is just a guy with a website whereas Labour wanted us to believe they were fit to run the country.

Fair point.

[lucky]

Blair McDougal does not work for the Scottish Labour Party. He left on the Saturday that Murphy resigned. The fact he may or may not have done this is nothing official to do with the Labour Party

[degenerated]

Blair McDougal does not work for the Scottish Labour Party. He left on the Saturday that Murphy resigned. The fact he may or may not have done this is nothing official to do with the Labour Party
Why was a spokesman for Scottish Labour quoted regarding this in the Sunday Herald, not a spokesman for Blair McDougall who has allegedly left the party.

[Just Alf]

That's fair comment Lucky, thing is it should really cut both ways :agree:

[degenerated]

That's fair comment Lucky, thing is it should really cut both ways :agree:
It was sent out by the the Scottish Labour press office, not by Blair McDougall.

[marinello59]

Dear God, make it stop.

[lucky]

It was sent out by the the Scottish Labour press office, not by Blair McDougall.

Again I'm not aware of that. I have some knowledge of what took place and as far as I'm aware it was not sanctioned by the party's Executive or acting Leader

[Moulin Yarns]

It was sent out by the the Scottish Labour press office, not by Blair McDougall.


Again I'm not aware of that. I have some knowledge of what took place and as far as I'm aware it was not sanctioned by the party's Executive or acting Leader


The contents of the dossier were made public by Labour at the end of a week that saw Sturgeon warn that SNP members who “cross the line” will face disciplinary action.
"Labour’s business manager James Kelly said: “Scottish politics has some of the most passionate debate anywhere in the world, but far too often that debate can turn into the most horrific of personal abuse.
“Parties cannot be held responsible for every abusive message that comes from people who might share their views. But every person in this dossier is, by their own admission, an SNP member and the party does have a responsibility to deal with this culture within their own ranks."

[Beefster]

Dear God, make it stop.

Yup. Desperate playground stuff. It wouldn't be so depressing if this wasn't the usual standard of political discourse in Scotland since the referendum.

[Bristolhibby]

And there is lies the problem. Any hint of someone daring to suggest that at least some centre right policies might actually make sense is a red Tory....anyone suggesting leftish policies is a reborn Michael foot and the SNP have positioned themselves (in the electorates mind at least) centre left leaving Labour with no where to go in Scotland. In the rest of the UK it's clear the electorate needed New Labour to reelect them so anything less would seemed doomed.

Really a party with no where to go and no idea how to get there!

Indy? It seems the only hope for Labour. And I mean that in an actual (Scottish Indy) or political sense (a separate "Labour" party in Scotland.

They cannot be all to all men (England and Scotland) the political requirement of them is too far apart to reconcile into something coherent.

J

[AndyM_1875]

Yup. Desperate playground stuff. It wouldn't be so depressing if this wasn't the usual standard of political discourse in Scotland since the referendum.

Absolutely correct.
The standard of debate and discourse is utterly abysmal. personally I feel that if people are not willing to talk about issues and just lapse into clichéd garbage (using language like RedTory, SNPBad, labourBad, quisling etc) then they're not worth listening to.
I find it absolutely incredible that my SNP pals are completely unwilling to criticize bad legislation from the Scottish Government like the upcoming Named Person plans which are an atrocious, invasive and unworkable mess.
"Must not criticize the party and all that" which I find utterly bizarre.

[Just Alf]

Absolutely correct.
The standard of debate and discourse is utterly abysmal. personally I feel that if people are not willing to talk about issues and just lapse into clichéd garbage (using language like RedTory, SNPBad, labourBad, quisling etc) then they're not worth listening to.
I find it absolutely incredible that my SNP pals are completely unwilling to criticize bad legislation from the Scottish Government like the upcoming Named Person plans which are an atrocious, invasive and unworkable mess.
"Must not criticize the party and all that" which I find utterly bizarre.

This 100%, seems to be across all parties, was just thinking how to word something like this in the "pet Peeves" thread... might just cut and paste! :wink:


Edit ... in fact I just have! (cut and pasted) :thumbsup:

[lucky]

The contents of the dossier were made public by Labour at the end of a week that saw Sturgeon warn that SNP members who “cross the line” will face disciplinary action.
"Labour’s business manager James Kelly said: “Scottish politics has some of the most passionate debate anywhere in the world, but far too often that debate can turn into the most horrific of personal abuse.
“Parties cannot be held responsible for every abusive message that comes from people who might share their views. But every person in this dossier is, by their own admission, an SNP member and the party does have a responsibility to deal with this culture within their own ranks."






Kelly was commenting on general internet trolling

[lord bunberry]

Yup. Desperate playground stuff. It wouldn't be so depressing if this wasn't the usual standard of political discourse in Scotland since the referendum.

Since the referendum!! It's been the way of politics since Saatchi and Saatchi took control of the tory campaign in the late 70s. Labour isn't working was the start of politics isn't working.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just because it's on social media does not make it true.

I can guarantee you 100% that it's not true, but you believe what you wish

Well, that went well. :wink:

[Colr]

Absolutely correct.
The standard of debate and discourse is utterly abysmal. personally I feel that if people are not willing to talk about issues and just lapse into clichéd garbage (using language like RedTory, SNPBad, labourBad, quisling etc) then they're not worth listening to.
I find it absolutely incredible that my SNP pals are completely unwilling to criticize bad legislation from the Scottish Government like the upcoming Named Person plans which are an atrocious, invasive and unworkable mess.
"Must not criticize the party and all that" which I find utterly bizarre.

Next you'll be saying that we haven't always been at war with Eastasia.

You want to watch it, mate!

[Moulin Yarns]

I got an email from The Scottish Labour Party today. It is just a pity I'm already a member of a political party, but it is tempting to become a supporter just for the right to vote for the leader and branch office manager.





Over the summer we have elections for the both the Scottish Labour Party and UK Labour leadership teams.

These decisions will be crucial to the future of our party and our country.

I want you to be able to take part in this important decision - but am I right in thinking you’re not yet a party member?*

As things stand, you won’t be able to vote in either leadership election. You can change that right now.

http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/images/email/Become%20a%20member.jpg (http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/m/6685567e/50e0bd72/3f7d8742/395fe5ce/516578020/VEsE/)

http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/-/images/email/Become%20a%20supporter.jpg (http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/m/6685567e/50e0bd72/3f7d8742/395fe5cf/516578020/VEsF/)

For the first time, you don’t have to be a full member of the party in order to vote in our leadership election. Although you won’t get to participate in everything a member can, you can now register as an official supporter of the Labour Party and get a vote.

If you join before the 13th July you'll be able to vote in both the Scottish and UK Labour leadership elections.

Whichever you choose, it only takes a couple of minutes.

I hope you take this chance to have your say.

Best wishes

Brian

Brian Roy
Scottish General Secretary

*P.S. Sometimes our records don't match up perfectly, so if you've received this and you're already a Labour Party member, registered supporter or affiliated supporter, then don't worry — you are already entitled to vote and don't need to do anything more. If you’re already a Labour Party member, let us know here (http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/page/m/6685567e/50e0bd72/3f7d8742/395fe5d0/516578020/VEsC/). Sorry about the mix up!

[steakbake]

Wow - disarray doesn't even cover it! Should spend time cultivating their contacts and supporters list, not titting about compiling twitter dossiers.

[Moulin Yarns]

At least they did the right thing with this twat.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3143593/Labour-SUSPENDS-candidate-unacceptable-offensive-selfie-scene-Tunisian-beach-slaughter.html

[AndyM_1875]

Next you'll be saying that we haven't always been at war with Eastasia.

You want to watch it, mate!

Ha Ha! God help me the Cybernats will doing an enquiry into me.:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

At least they did the right thing with this twat. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3143593/Labour-SUSPENDS-candidate-unacceptable-offensive-selfie-scene-Tunisian-beach-slaughter.html

I'm a bit confused by this...are you only allowed to take pictures of happy moments? Is it the fact it's a selfie or that a selfie stick was used that is unacceptable and offensive?

I see lots of pictures in the MSM all the time of tributes and sites where horrible things have happened...often there is tv coverage of the PM or other dignitaries laying tributes, are those unacceptable and offensive as well?

[Beefster]

I'm a bit confused by this...are you only allowed to take pictures of happy moments? Is it the fact it's a selfie or that a selfie stick was used that is unacceptable and offensive?

I see lots of pictures in the MSM all the time of tributes and sites where horrible things have happened...often there is tv coverage of the PM or other dignitaries laying tributes, are those unacceptable and offensive as well?

I think it's the fact that he was treating the scene of a massacre like a tourist attraction a day or so after the event. Not the worst crime in the world but utterly tasteless/tactless.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm a bit confused by this...are you only allowed to take pictures of happy moments? Is it the fact it's a selfie or that a selfie stick was used that is unacceptable and offensive?

I see lots of pictures in the MSM all the time of tributes and sites where horrible things have happened...often there is tv coverage of the PM or other dignitaries laying tributes, are those unacceptable and offensive as well?


While there is inevitably going to be media coverage at sites of tragedies, and tributes paid by people like David Cameron, to take a photo of himself visiting the location was just crass IMHO.

Fair enough, go and pay your respects but to take a 'happy snap' was a stupid thing to do under the circumstances. That the Labour Party have suspended him as a consequence suggests to me they thought so too.

[(((Fergus)))]

At least they did the right thing with this twat.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3143593/Labour-SUSPENDS-candidate-unacceptable-offensive-selfie-scene-Tunisian-beach-slaughter.html

Another candidate for worst typo:


The Prime Minister said ISIS posed an existential threat to the British way of life, but vowed: 'We will now cower in the face of terrorism.'

[RyeSloan]

While there is inevitably going to be media coverage at sites of tragedies, and tributes paid by people like David Cameron, to take a photo of himself visiting the location was just crass IMHO. Fair enough, go and pay your respects but to take a 'happy snap' was a stupid thing to do under the circumstances. That the Labour Party have suspended him as a consequence suggests to me they thought so too.

It wasn't a happy snap though was it, he explains that quite clearly...maybe he wanted a reminder of the emotions and feelings he experienced when paying his respects?

I have photos of myself at WW2 cemeteries and the Menin Gate at Ypres...they remind me of the shock I felt when I saw the fields of white crosses and the sadness felt when hearing the last post played, should those be considered crass as well?

As for a political party suspending someone that suffers some negative press, not always the best barometer of if it was right or wrong in my book.

Anyway only an observation so take your points and I get how others could consider his actions differently.

[Future17]

It wasn't a happy snap though was it, he explains that quite clearly...maybe he wanted a reminder of the emotions and feelings he experienced when paying his respects?

I have photos of myself at WW2 cemeteries and the Menin Gate at Ypres...they remind me of the shock I felt when I saw the fields of white crosses and the sadness felt when hearing the last post played, should those be considered crass as well?

As for a political party suspending someone that suffers some negative press, not always the best barometer of if it was right or wrong in my book.

Anyway only an observation so take your points and I get how others could consider his actions differently.

I wondered if I was alone in thinking this, but I completely agree with you.

[Colr]

It wasn't a happy snap though was it, he explains that quite clearly...maybe he wanted a reminder of the emotions and feelings he experienced when paying his respects?

I have photos of myself at WW2 cemeteries and the Menin Gate at Ypres...they remind me of the shock I felt when I saw the fields of white crosses and the sadness felt when hearing the last post played, should those be considered crass as well?

As for a political party suspending someone that suffers some negative press, not always the best barometer of if it was right or wrong in my book.

Anyway only an observation so take your points and I get how others could consider his actions differently.

When I was growing up it was always the Tories that were telling people what they should think and say (clause 28, back to basics, bring back national service, etc...) which I always found odd for a party so interested in economic liberalism. These days it is the left who are profoundly illiberal in this area (political correctness, etc..).