"Orangefest" afternoon of "party tunes", bigotry and violence - catered for by GCC

[lyonhibs]

http://athousandflowers.net/2015/06/01/orangefest-set-to-take-over-glasgow-this-saturday/ (http://athousandflowers.net/2015/06/01/orangefest-set-to-take-over-glasgow-this-saturday/)

Excuse the link to the slightly "holier than thou" blog website, but I felt this merited a mention.

It seems that, not content with allowing these troglodytes to re-enact the 18th Century on July 12th (and all throughout "marching season") on Glasgow's streets, Glasgow City Council is facilitating some sort of "Knees up Mother Brown" Orange get-together with hearty sing songs, marches and readings from - amongst others - the improbably named "Most Worthy Grand Master Bro Henry Dunbar" (although qudos for the nod towards modernity by letting the revered Worthy Grand Mistress Sis Jean Logan speak/sing/tell bedtime stories about bashing the "Taigs and Fenians" or whatever it is one does at these things).

This sounds like a Daily Mash article, but it really isn't. They seem to have even factored in 15 minutes for their boozed up dickheads to enjoy a spot of violence, under the jovial title of "audience interaction"

I love Glasgow, and the vast majority of people therein having spent 4 years of my life there at Uni and enjoyed it thoroughly.

But the credence and attitude with which GCC seems to now be viewing "The Orange Order" and their annual outpouring of out-dated, Buckfast fuelled jakery (i.e. as some sort of legitimate and worthwhile part of society, instead of a time-warp anachronism that needs to be dragged into the 21st - ok, let's be sensible - 20th - century) is troubling to say the least.

I wonder how much of the good taxpayers of Glasgow's money will be poured into this event, both in policing/stewarding and the inevitable clear-up later on in the evening where the fair soldiers of the Orange Order have one too many Buckfast Chasers and decide to indulge in a spot of pavement dancing with anyone and everyone.

Unbelievable (or rather, depressingly believable)

:bitchy::bitchy:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Orangefest? Seriously, Orangefest?

Horrible, truly horrible. What a sad indictment of Glasgow; it's shameful.

[lyonhibs]

Orangefest? Seriously, Orangefest?

Horrible, truly horrible. What a sad indictment of Glasgow; it's shameful.

TBF, I don't know if that is the official title of this day of festivities or just the title given to it by the blog I linked.

Not that I'd be surprised in the slightest if it really was officially called "Orangefest" which in itself tells it's own story.

[Hibernia&Alba]

TBF, I don't know if that is the official title of this day of festivities or just the title given to it by the blog I linked.

Not that I'd be surprised in the slightest if it really was officially called "Orangefest" which in itself tells it's own story.

Bigotfest, that's what it is. A load of Rangers fans who have never been Christians in any sense, singing their bile. Appalling.

[ronaldo7]

#orangefest

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16.00 Finale: Pomp and circumstance as per last night of the proms.

:lolrangers:

[lucky]

It's not its offical title, it's culture & heritage or something like that. Evey group has a right to hold events that's why we are democratic soiciety. Enough people on here were up in arms over Tory plans to scrap the Human rights act. Well even the Orange Oder have rights even if we disagree with their views.

[lyonhibs]

It's not its offical title, it's culture & heritage or something like that. Evey group has a right to hold events that's why we are democratic soiciety. Enough people on here were up in arms over Tory plans to scrap the Human rights act. Well even the Orange Oder have rights even if we disagree with their views.

Agree in principle. But you ask 75% of the bams attending this thing for a potted history of the Orange Order and the role it aims to play in 21st century Scotland and you'll be met with - at best - blank looks. They're there for a bevvy and ideally in their minds, a pagger.

[Pretty Boy]

Keeps the neanderthal element in one place for the day I suppose.

A counter party celebrating living in the 21st century and respecting other peoples freedoms could be an idea for the future.

[Keith_M]

This from a City Council that's been of the 'Celtc Minded' variety for as long as I can remember.

[snooky]

Orangefest? Oh, haud me back. :rolleyes:

[degenerated]

#orangefest

14972

16.00 Finale: Pomp and circumstance as per last night of the proms.

[emoji38]rangers:
14.30 pastor Michael McCurry, is this what Scottish referees get up to on retiral?

[Sean1875]

Absolutely terrifying how this is getting the go ahead. absolute chaos will ensue.. good luck to anyone in Glasgow at the time!

[Keith_M]

Some twat has an article in The Herald, urging people to have 'more tolerance' for The Orange Order.


Is that what's called an Irony Bypass?

[Future17]

I'm obviously missing something as I don't really see why this is such a big deal.

They don't appear to be planning to preach violence or hatred - in fact there's a suggestion the event will make the Order more transparent for those who don't know what its actually about (beyond the regular news coverage which is usually associated with negative events).

If there's a chance that events such as these increase tolerance then that can only be a good thing surely?

Having said that, I did have a chuckle at the parade leaving from "Holland Street". :greengrin

[Geo_1875]

I'm obviously missing something as I don't really see why this is such a big deal.

They don't appear to be planning to preach violence or hatred - in fact there's a suggestion the event will make the Order more transparent for those who don't know what its actually about (beyond the regular news coverage which is usually associated with negative events).

If there's a chance that events such as these increase tolerance then that can only be a good thing surely?

Having said that, I did have a chuckle at the parade leaving from "Holland Street". :greengrin

If they want to be open and transparent why don't they have open days at their halls or run a stall at each of the local gala days which are running every weekend throughout the summer. Let them do whatever they think appropriate but why should an entire city centre be handed over to them on a Saturday at the taxpayers expense.

[heretoday]

The Orange Order were on the radio this morning with their usual "butter wouldn't melt" denials of being anything other than an open and peace-loving organisation.

I really think that if Scotland has any chance of success as an independent nation we have to confront these people and others like them. Otherwise I can see them assuming an influence in the political field as well as on the streets and football terraces.

[liamh2202]

The Orange Order were on the radio this morning with their usual "butter wouldn't melt" denials of being anything other than an open and peace-loving organisation.

I really think that if Scotland has any chance of success as an independent nation we have to confront these people and others like them. Otherwise I can see them assuming an influence in the political field as well as on the streets and football terraces.

Can you just confirm what 'others like them' means? Who else are you comparing them to? And who else will be included? I see a lot of short sighted opinions here most of which seem to be comparing the orange order to rangers bigots who in fact have nothing to do with them

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's not its offical title, it's culture & heritage or something like that. Evey group has a right to hold events that's why we are democratic soiciety. Enough people on here were up in arms over Tory plans to scrap the Human rights act. Well even the Orange Oder have rights even if we disagree with their views.

That's a fair point. In a free country people must be allowed to congregate peacefully, and as long as it remains peaceful there's no problem. There will be many groups in society I don't belong to, and some whose views I mightn't like, but they have rights of expression.

[Smartie]

The Orange Order were on the radio this morning with their usual "butter wouldn't melt" denials of being anything other than an open and peace-loving organisation.

I really think that if Scotland has any chance of success as an independent nation we have to confront these people and others like them. Otherwise I can see them assuming an influence in the political field as well as on the streets and football terraces.

I think this is the key to it though. You can't just ban them, silence them, shut them down, stop them doing things. That gives them a credibility they don't deserve.

You let them have their say, you debate it, you win and the best interests are served.

If they, as an organisation, are what they say they are then this event will attract no trouble and pass off peacefully. If not (as many of us would suggest will be the case) then they can kiss goodbye to holding events like this in future.

Sadly, the price of freedom of speech, freedom of expression and basic human rights is that sometimes you get subjected to stuff that you disagree with. I would think that 99.99999% of decent people would be able to find a way of avoiding Glasgow city centre for one Saturday afternoon if they think that this might not be their thing. That leaves the fuds that are into it and those that would want to fight it to go along.

[Newry Hibs]

Orangefest? Seriously, Orangefest?

Horrible, truly horrible. What a sad indictment of Glasgow; it's shameful.

There has been an 'Orangefest' over in Northern Ireland for a few years now. It is an attempt to rebrand orangeism in the wake of the usual nonsense and violence (on both sides tbh). They really do think it can include everyone.

[Geo_1875]

There has been an 'Orangefest' over in Northern Ireland for a few years now. It is an attempt to rebrand orangeism in the wake of the usual nonsense and violence (on both sides tbh). They really do think it can include everyone.

Unfortunately, they aren't like Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons who hand out leaflets on the High Street or the Hare Krishna's doing the conga.

Just don't try and cross the road when they're on the march.

[Keith_M]

Can you just confirm what 'others like them' means? Who else are you comparing them to? And who else will be included? I see a lot of short sighted opinions here most of which seem to be comparing the orange order to rangers bigots who in fact have nothing to do with them


Are you doing Stand Up at the Fringe this year?

[liamh2202]

Are you doing Stand Up at the Fringe this year?

Yeh good debating skills.. Shows how possibly I'll informed you are. Might be worth looking into the charity work they carry out for a start

[Lucius Apuleius]

Are you doing Stand Up at the Fringe this year?

To be fair I know 2 members of the Orange order who are Falkirk fans. :agree:

[Pretty Boy]

Can you just confirm what 'others like them' means? Who else are you comparing them to? And who else will be included? I see a lot of short sighted opinions here most of which seem to be comparing the orange order to rangers bigots who in fact have nothing to do with them

To say the bigots have nothing to do with them is stretching the truth a bit.

For starters the Orange Order is by it's very nature a bigoted and sectarian organisation. That's a fact, it excludes people based on their personal beliefs. Secondly a simple search on YouTube shows the type of person attracted to these marches. Whilst the Rangers top wearing neds tend not to be partaking in the March they go along to support it and the marchers and bands love playing up to them. It doesn't' take great detective skills to find video evidence of flute bands playing songs such as No Pope of Rome or Soldier of the UVF and whipping the watching crowds into a frenzy.

I just don't understand the reason for the existence of the Orange Order in the modern age. An organisation founded to protect the rights of Protestants to worship freely was probably necessary once upon a time but there are currently 1400+ places of worship under the name of the Church of Scotland alone where Protestants are free to worship every Sunday if they wish. I fail to see why the rest of us need to listen to songs of hate and a celebration of bloody battles past in public places every year for no real reason.

[liamh2202]

To say the bigots have nothing to do with them is stretching the truth a bit.

For starters the Orange Order is by it's very nature a bigoted and sectarian organisation. That's a fact, it excludes people based on their personal beliefs. Secondly a simple search on YouTube shows the type of person attracted to these marches. Whilst the Rangers top wearing neds tend not to be partaking in the March they go along to support it and the marchers and bands love playing up to them. It doesn't' take great detective skills to find video evidence of flute bands playing songs such as No Pope of Rome or Soldier of the UVF and whipping the watching crowds into a frenzy.

I just don't understand the reason for the existence of the Orange Order in the modern age. An organisation founded to protect the rights of Protestants to worship freely was probably necessary once upon a time but there are currently 1400+ places of worship under the name of the Church of Scotland alone where Protestants are free to worship every Sunday if they wish. I fail to see why the rest of us need to listen to songs of hate and a celebration of bloody battles past in public places every year for no real reason.

Fair views mate.genuinely good post. I was just making the point that the rangers top wearing ********s are not in the parade nor as far as I have found have the first clue about the organisation or religion in particular. My views differ when it comes to the existence of the organisation ( or any other for that Matter) but respect your opinion mate

[Newry Hibs]

Fair views mate.genuinely good post. I was just making the point that the rangers top wearing ********s are not in the parade nor as far as I have found have the first clue about the organisation or religion in particular. My views differ when it comes to the existence of the organisation ( or any other for that Matter) but respect your opinion mate

Usually hidden underneath the colourful tunics or suits with the nice citrus ribbons.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Can you just confirm what 'others like them' means? Who else are you comparing them to? And who else will be included? I see a lot of short sighted opinions here most of which seem to be comparing the orange order to rangers bigots who in fact have nothing to do with them

Those who are members of the OO could be nicest people in the world for all I know. They have a right to freedom of religious conscience. But you put on an event like that in Glasgow and you know who's going to turn up: the same people who stand by the roadside every summer when the walks are on, drinking all day; people who have nothing to do with Christianity but regard the OO as a vehicle through which to get it up the 'taigs'. The same people who were at ER just a few weeks ago wearing orange shirts. The away section looked like Dundee United fans. As PB pointed out, the bands themselves don't only confine themselves to playing hymns either.

[ronaldo7]

I wonder if some of these guys will be attending.

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[Future17]

To say the bigots have nothing to do with them is stretching the truth a bit.

For starters the Orange Order is by it's very nature a bigoted and sectarian organisation. That's a fact, it excludes people based on their personal beliefs. Secondly a simple search on YouTube shows the type of person attracted to these marches. Whilst the Rangers top wearing neds tend not to be partaking in the March they go along to support it and the marchers and bands love playing up to them. It doesn't' take great detective skills to find video evidence of flute bands playing songs such as No Pope of Rome or Soldier of the UVF and whipping the watching crowds into a frenzy.

I just don't understand the reason for the existence of the Orange Order in the modern age. An organisation founded to protect the rights of Protestants to worship freely was probably necessary once upon a time but there are currently 1400+ places of worship under the name of the Church of Scotland alone where Protestants are free to worship every Sunday if they wish. I fail to see why the rest of us need to listen to songs of hate and a celebration of bloody battles past in public places every year for no real reason.

It may well be sectarian (in the original sense of the word, rather than what it has come to mean in recent years) but it is NOT "by its very nature" bigoted. The irony is, by claiming that to be a "fact", you yourself are (hopefully inadvertently) being a bigot PB. Either you're allowing others to influence you or your deliberately encouraging intolerance.

I normally find myself agreeing with most of your posts, but the highlighted section above is hyperbolic nonsense and it hinders rather than helps the prospect of modernising attitudes towards freedom of belief in this country.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It may well be sectarian (in the original sense of the word, rather than what it has come to mean in recent years) but it is NOT "by its very nature" bigoted. The irony is, by claiming that to be a "fact", you yourself are (hopefully inadvertently) being a bigot PB. Either you're allowing others to influence you or your deliberately encouraging intolerance.

I normally find myself agreeing with most of your posts, but the highlighted section above is hyperbolic nonsense and it hinders rather than helps the prospect of modernising attitudes towards freedom of belief in this country.

I will agree to a point with you, Future, but it's an organisation that is regarded as intimidating and triumphalist to many also. I fully agree regarding freedom of religious conscience for all, and its shame the marches need be so controversial. As has been said, its members don't seem to be the real problem, more some of the rabble who watch it and the behaviour of some of the loyalist bands, who often aren't there for true religious reasons. Sadly, in our society we do have people who hide behind religion to propagate prejudice (people of various religions I would add), but I guess that's the story of all religions from yet dot. There will always be people who will want to use religious belief for their own ends.

[Future17]

I will agree to a point with you, Future, but it's an organisation that is regarded as intimidating and triumphalist to many also. I fully agree regarding freedom of religious conscience for all, and its shame the marches need be so controversial. As has been said, its members don't seem to be the real problem, more some of the rabble who watch it and the behaviour of some of the loyalist bands, who often aren't there for true religious reasons. Sadly, in our society we do have people who hide behind religion to propagate prejudice (people of various religions I would add), but I guess that's the story of all religions from yet dot. There will always be people who will want to use religious belief for their own ends.

I totally agree and I completely understand the cynicism expressed by most people towards the Glasgow event this weekend. However, it's hard to know how an organisation such as the Orange Order can work to change their image if not through events like these (amongst other things).

[Geo_1875]

I totally agree and I completely understand the cynicism expressed by most people towards the Glasgow event this weekend. However, it's hard to know how an organisation such as the Orange Order can work to change their image if not through events like these (amongst other things).

Their big problem is that they are thought of as anti-Catholicism as much as pro-Protestantism. It's a bit like all these defence leagues going around. They seem to spend more time letting people know what or who they are defending against rather than what they are defending.

They could try street corner leafleting rather than marching if they want to be better understood.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I totally agree and I completely understand the cynicism expressed by most people towards the Glasgow event this weekend. However, it's hard to know how an organisation such as the Orange Order can work to change their image if not through events like these (amongst other things).

As long as the event is peaceful and respectful there's no problem, and all who attend just need to be aware of what's expected in a public place. Sadly, I fear the usual types of Glaswegian suspects will be there in force with their carrier bags of Tennent's. Perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Kato]

My answer to anyone calling for tolerance toward the OO is, "They can have a go first."

[Beefster]

I'm obviously missing something as I don't really see why this is such a big deal.

Nor do I and I'm one of the ones they hate.

[Future17]

Nor do I and I'm one of the ones they hate.

:fishin:

:greengrin

[IndyHibs]

I totally agree and I completely understand the cynicism expressed by most people towards the Glasgow event this weekend. However, it's hard to know how an organisation such as the Orange Order can work to change their image if not through events like these (amongst other things).

One way they could change their image is by more transparency or clarity on their web-page (I refer to the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland here).

On the one hand their 'Charity' section claims that their efforts benefit people of all faiths and backgrounds. Yet Wikipedia (that font of all wisdom) suggests that being married to a Catholic disqualifies one from membership; and that being a convert to (Reformed) Protestantism from being Catholic requires special approval. What I'm puzzled about is what the "ideals of our faith" (quoting from the GOLOS website) is that are suggested.

It's interesting that the only real way to find out is by clicking on the 'Contact Us' section and requesting information. Why not just be transparent about what you believe; after all that's what most faith-based organizations do? And in this generation people learn more from the web than just about any other form of publicity; certainly more than a festival/parade.

[Lucius Apuleius]

http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/orange.html tells you quite a lot. Bear in mind though that being evangelical and very anti "secret society" it can certainly be a bit biased. :greengrin

[IndyHibs]

http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/orange.html tells you quite a lot. Bear in mind though that being evangelical and very anti "secret society" it can certainly be a bit biased. :greengrin

Thanks, Lucius, this is interesting. After reading the description I (personally) would remove the word 'evangelical' and replace it with 'fundamentalist'. Many evangelicals would have no problem attending an ecumenical prayer service with Catholics and other Christians. According to the ET website:

"Many Christians have also been dismayed at the growing liberalism within the Institution at its attitude towards ecumenism. This compromise is especially prevalent among some of its leading clergy. Some of the Orange Order's senior ministers like Rev. Martin Smyth (former Grand Master) and Rev. Robert Coulter (a Grand Chaplain) have attended ecumenical prayer breakfasts in recent years with the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church. This runs against the strong evangelical position on separation from ecclesiastical error."

Talk about sectarian. I think it just confirms the need on the part of the Order to have a clear doctrinal statement available online, if they are serious about being understood.

[blaikie]

Least they have the weather for it!

[Keith_M]

Least they have the weather for it!


Is it true they dyed the Clyde Orange for the day?


:wink:

[Colr]

Sadly, I fear the usual types of Glaswegian suspects will be there in force with their carrier bags of Tennent's. Perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Police Scotland?

[Hibernia&Alba]

So how did it go? I haven't heard anything, which must be a good sign there were no problems.

[Future17]

So how did it go? I haven't heard anything, which must be a good sign there were no problems.

Everyone I've heard talking about it said they were blown away...

:greengrin

[SkintHibby]

My Harthill hun workmate informed me the recent Harthill Gala Day was led by...

(a) A pipe band
(b) A brass band
(c) An orange flute band

Answers on a post card please!

[liamh2202]

My Harthill hun workmate informed me the recent Harthill Gala Day was led by...

(a) A pipe band
(b) A brass band
(c) An orange flute band

Answers on a post card please!

My local gala parade has always included this line up ( the flute band plays only hymns in community parades) I don't see the issue with that? They also donate a fair amount to the gala day and usually parade in fancy dress ( yes more than usual )

[Keith_M]

My local gala parade has always included this line up ( the flute band plays only hymns in community parades) I don't see the issue with that? They also donate a fair amount to the gala day and usually parade in fancy dress ( yes more than usual )


I'm glad I grew up in the East, where sectarian groups were a no-no at public events like our local Gala Day *



* I'm obviously excluding Prestonpans, which we referred to as 'Lanarkshire Upon Forth' :wink:

[liamh2202]

I'm glad I grew up in the East, where sectarian groups were a no-no at public events like our local Gala Day *



* I'm obviously excluding Prestonpans, which we referred to as 'Lanarkshire Upon Forth' :wink:

I also grew up in the east... As I stated they were always a band playing hymns and IMO made a valuable contribution to a children's gala parade

[Peevemor]

Having played pipes for 40 years, I've played at nearly every gala day in Edinburgh and Midlothian, most in West Lothian and a few in East Lothian - I encountered very few flute bands. Most of the childrens galas took place in mining communities and it was mostly the colliery bands or their post-pit closure successors who were present - ie. pipe or silver bands.

Flute bands are another kettle of fish.

[Geo_1875]

Having played pipes for 40 years, I've played at nearly every gala day in Edinburgh and Midlothian, most in West Lothian and a few in East Lothian - I encountered very few flute bands. Most of the childrens galas took place in mining communities and it was mostly the colliery bands or their post-pit closuie successors who were present - ie. pipe or silver bands.

Flute bands are another kettle of fish.

The further West you go the more you see flute bands at local galas. These tend not to be called childrens galas and start off with everybody getting bladdered from 8 in the morning and culminating in a scene from the wild west around 10 in the evening.

[Keith_M]

I also grew up in the east... As I stated they were always a band playing hymns and IMO made a valuable contribution to a children's gala parade


Liam, you obviously have your reasons for defending the OO but I'm afraid there are very few people that will agree with you.

The fact that they, for one day, decided to play only Hymns and leave out the usual songs does not suddenly make them acceptable. This is an organisation who's purpose is to protect Protestant Faiths from an imaginary threat from the Catholic Church. They have many members, despite their protestations to the contrary, that are steeped in bigotry. Their marches have often stopped outside RC Churches purely to make a point.

They (and their self-proclaimed Irish Republican counterparts) are a throwback to a time hundreds of years ago when Europe was at war on Religious grounds. Their supporters help keep the animosity of that divide going and are an anachronism in our modern age.

The very existence of groups like these helps stoke these divides and perpetuates a horrific scar on our society.

[liamh2202]

Liam, you obviously have your reasons for defending the OO but I'm afraid there are very few people that will agree with you.

The fact that they, for one day, decided to play only Hymns and leave out the usual songs does not suddenly make them acceptable. This is an organisation who's purpose is to protect Protestant Faiths from an imaginary threat from the Catholic Church. They have many members, despite their protestations to the contrary, that are steeped in bigotry. Their marches have often stopped outside RC Churches purely to make a point.

They (and their self-proclaimed Irish Republican counterparts) are a throwback to a time hundreds of years ago when Europe was at war on Religious grounds. Their supporters help keep the animosity of that divide going and are an anachronism in our modern age.

The very existence of groups like these helps stoke these divides and perpetuates a horrific scar on our society.


I accept your opinion mate but just giving the other side to it. Flute bands as part of a gala have nothing to do with the orange order. I would also suggest they have as much right to walk and play hymns in a gala parade just as much as a coliery brass band and a salvation army silver band

[Beefster]

* I'm obviously excluding Prestonpans, which we referred to as 'Lanarkshire Upon Forth' :wink:

We referred to it as "that ****hole down the hill".

[Keith_M]

We referred to it as "that ****hole down the hill".


Are you a Belter?

[Beefster]

Are you a Belter?

Aye. It's a curse being from God's chosen town.

[Hibrandenburg]

I accept your opinion mate but just giving the other side to it. Flute bands as part of a gala have nothing to do with the orange order. I would also suggest they have as much right to walk and play hymns in a gala parade just as much as a coliery brass band and a salvation army silver band

Are you seriously comparing the OO to the salvation army and colliery bands?

[Lucius Apuleius]

I accept your opinion mate but just giving the other side to it. Flute bands as part of a gala have nothing to do with the orange order. I would also suggest they have as much right to walk and play hymns in a gala parade just as much as a coliery brass band and a salvation army silver band

I would say if said flute band was an orange band then no matter what they were playing at they were still an orange band. I really don't know any other types of flute bands. There maybe some but never seen one.

[Peevemor]

I would say if said flute band was an orange band then no matter what they were playing at they were still an orange band. I really don't know any other types of flute bands. There maybe some but never seen one.


There are republican ones too.

[liamh2202]

Are you seriously comparing the OO to the salvation army and colliery bands?

No I compared a flute band not the OO

[Lucius Apuleius]

There are republican ones too.

Semantics. All the tunes are the same, just different words. 😁

[liamh2202]

I would say if said flute band was an orange band then no matter what they were playing at they were still an orange band. I really don't know any other types of flute bands. There maybe some but never seen one.

Is it purely the flute that offends you? What about if it was one of the accordion bands that usually accompany the lodges ? In fancy dress playing hymns , would you even know what they usually done? Sounds a bit instrumentus to me ;)

[Future17]

This is an organisation who's purpose is to protect Protestant Faiths from an imaginary threat...

But the "threat" hasn't always been imaginary has it?

[liamh2202]

But the "threat" hasn't always been imaginary has it?

Exactly.. And is still a lot less imagionary than what most religions are based on

[Kato]

But the "threat" hasn't always been imaginary has it?

You have to go way, way back in history to before the bowler hat was invented to find a time when any "threat" was a reality.

I suppose violent, sectarian organisations imagined they had a right to be violent and sectarian back then.

[Moulin Yarns]

The 'march' scenes were filmed inand around Easter Road, I don't suppose anybody would have realised it was a drama if it was filmed in Glasgow.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/)

Whatch the whole programme here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJnAebGgFE

[Moulin Yarns]

The 'march' scenes were filmed inand around Easter Road, I don't suppose anybody would have realised it was a drama if it was filmed in Glasgow.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/)

Whatch the whole programme here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJnAebGgFE

A bit more about the filming here

http://www.scotswhayhae.com/2011/10/you-have-been-watchingjust-another.html

[Kato]

The 'march' scenes were filmed inand around Easter Road, I don't suppose anybody would have realised it was a drama if it was filmed in Glasgow.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0292221/)

Whatch the whole programme here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJnAebGgFE

The "march" scenes were filmed in and around St Leonards and The Pleasance, saw some of it being filmed as Castlebrae school used Jimmy Clarks as an annexe back then.

Bussing a couple of hundred teenagers from Niddrie into town every day caused far more trouble than any walk :.)


Great movie. I doubt anything like that would be made for TV these days.

[Geo_1875]

A bit more about the filming here

http://www.scotswhayhae.com/2011/10/you-have-been-watchingjust-another.html

Never realised that some of the marching scenes were real. Can't believe these people thought they were in a documentary yet still behaved as they did.

[Future17]

You have to go way, way back in history to before the bowler hat was invented to find a time when any "threat" was a reality.

I suppose violent, sectarian organisations imagined they had a right to be violent and sectarian back then.

I think, when your aim is to maintain a place in society for the teachings and traditions of a way of life you wish to protect, there are many current "threats" beyond the narrow definition you appear to be applying.

[Kato]

I think, when your aim is to maintain a place in society for the teachings and traditions of a way of life you wish to protect, there are many current "threats" beyond the narrow definition you appear to be applying.

...and yet the membership of the OO seems obsessed by an historic threat..

Their narrow target, not mine.

[Future17]

...and yet the membership of the OO seems obsessed by an historic threat..

Their narrow target, not mine.

Which "historic threat"? What do you mean by "target"?

I'm not trying to deny for a minute that the OO has members who are obsessed with the past, but that's individuals not the organisation itself.

On balance, I don't think organised religion tends to be a positive thing. However, I believe people who do are entirely within their rights to seek to protect and maintain their beliefs as long as they are not breaking any laws in doing so.

[Kato]

Which "historic threat"? What do you mean by "target"?

"Roman Catholicism" is the answer to both those questions.

You're not being disingenuous asking those questions by any chance are you?


I'm not trying to deny for a minute that the OO has members who are obsessed with the past, but that's individuals not the organisation itself.

Which modern threats to Protestantism (in reality Presbyterianism) do OO members or the OO as an organisation focus on?


On balance, I don't think organised religion tends to be a positive thing. However, I believe people who do are entirely within their rights to seek to protect and maintain their beliefs as long as they are not breaking any laws in doing so.

Agreed. Saying that I've seen the law broken a few times on marches that I've inadvertently came across and nothing is done, much like nothing is done with Rangers fans breaking the law in and around football games.

[liamh2202]

"Roman Catholicism" is the answer to both those questions.

You're not being disingenuous asking those questions by any chance are you?



Which modern threats to Protestantism (in reality Presbyterianism) do OO members or the OO as an organisation focus on?



Agreed. Saying that I've seen the law broken a few times on marches that I've inadvertently came across and nothing is done, much like nothing is done with Rangers fans breaking the law in and around football games.

Breaking the law in what ways?

[Kato]

Breaking the law in what ways?

Apart from the usual, innocuous drunk and disorderly stuff (no harm done), I've seen grown men crowding out an old couple who were trying to cross the road in front of a march (big no-no for them) to the point of pushing the old geezer to the ground and crowing at the old biddy who was screaming at them to stop, I saw one guy punch a wee laddie in the face (about 12 year old) for wearing a green top and my mate got involved in an altercation with a bunch of mono-brow scowlers who took exception to him shouting "the man from delmonte says, YES" when they were carrying placards saying "Ulster says NO" (I forget what they were saying no to) - sore face and ribs for my pal. Police were in and around the area (foot of ER for the 1st two/Princes St for the latter) and nothing done, in the case of the wee laddie two rozzers turned their backs on the incident.

This wasn't the "organisation" obviously but members of.

Not exactly serious stuff, bar the old boy getting knocked around, but I'm sure there have been far worse crimes in and around marches. Unless you know better?

Oh and I couldn't give two hoots about Catholicism/Protestantism or any other sects that play divide and rule games with the bible and I'm not going to stick up for either side but I can recognise a bigot when I see one and a bigoted organisation.

The OO fit the bill perfectly whatever camouflage they've put up around themselves in modern times.

[liamh2202]

Apart from the usual, innocuous drunk and disorderly stuff (no harm done), I've seen grown men crowding out an old couple who were trying to cross the road in front of a march (big no-no for them) to the point of pushing the old geezer to the ground and crowing at the old biddy who was screaming at them to stop, I saw one guy punch a wee laddie in the face (about 12 year old) for wearing a green top and my mate got involved in an altercation with a bunch of mono-brow scowlers who took exception to him shouting "the man from delmonte says, YES" when they were carrying placards saying "Ulster says NO" (I forget what they were saying no to) - sore face and ribs for my pal. Police were in and around the area (foot of ER for the 1st two/Princes St for the latter) and nothing done, in the case of the wee laddie two rozzers turned their backs on the incident.

This wasn't the "organisation" obviously but members of.

Not exactly serious stuff, bar the old boy getting knocked around, but I'm sure there have been far worse crimes in and around marches. Unless you know better?

Oh and I couldn't give two hoots about Catholicism/Protestantism or any other sects that play divide and rule games with the bible and I'm not going to stick up for either side but I can recognise a bigot when I see one and a bigoted organisation.

The OO fit the bill perfectly whatever camouflage they've put up around themselves in modern times.

And this was all carried out by members of the OO ? Or flute bands ( they are not the sane thing) or indeed hangers on who follow the walks causing trouble.

How would you like it if we were all tagged as sectarian republicans because of the small section of our support singing the infamous **** the queen song, or the idiots that shout up the ra at games against rangers? Or take trip colours to games whenever they think it will be controversial? And yes all this does happen but I would not link that to it being the club causing these problems. Hence why I take it up with these individuals at the time and don't automatically say it is the clubs fault

[Kato]

And this was all carried out by members of the OO ? Or flute bands ( they are not the sane thing) or indeed hangers on who follow the walks causing trouble.

Yes.


How would you like it if we were all tagged as sectarian republicans because of the small section of our support singing the infamous **** the queen song, or the idiots that shout up the ra at games against rangers? Or take trip colours to games whenever they think it will be controversial? And yes all this does happen but I would not link that to it being the club causing these problems. Hence why I take it up with these individuals at the time and don't automatically say it is the clubs fault

The difference being Hibs have never been anti-protestant organisation whereas the OO was set-up specifcally as an Anti-Catholic/Pro a certain kind of Protestantism, at one time and to an extent still triumphalist and confrontational.

Hibs still have a responsibility to ensure that type of bigot-culture doesn't take a firm hold within the support and took moves years ago to stamp out certain elements of it.

The OO also have that responsibility with it's members but all I see is attempts to disguise it rather than stop it, or shift the blame around certain elements surrounding it, like you are doing.

...I don't have to like or dislike being " tagged as sectarian republicans", that just happens anyway.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Is it purely the flute that offends you? What about if it was one of the accordion bands that usually accompany the lodges ? In fancy dress playing hymns , would you even know what they usually done? Sounds a bit instrumentus to me ;)

Who said I was offended?

[IndyHibs]

And this was all carried out by members of the OO ? Or flute bands ( they are not the sane thing) or indeed hangers on who follow the walks causing trouble.

How would you like it if we were all tagged as sectarian republicans because of the small section of our support singing the infamous **** the queen song, or the idiots that shout up the ra at games against rangers? Or take trip colours to games whenever they think it will be controversial? And yes all this does happen but I would not link that to it being the club causing these problems. Hence why I take it up with these individuals at the time and don't automatically say it is the clubs fault

I think one of the key differences is that the OO retains symbols, practices and traditions that are associated with discrimination. The very act of marching in Orange regalia and singing hymns evokes bad, bad memories for many people because of their use throughout history. This, to me, is comparable to people in the American south who organize events or marches singing Dixie and waving the Confederate flag. Some of these people may mean nothing by it, but because those symbols are associated with such repugnant practices (slavery), they cause harm. And these people ought to know better.

Nothing like this is comparable, to my knowledge, with Hibs.

[Keith_M]

But the "threat" hasn't always been imaginary has it?


How far back to you want to go to preserve pointless organisations like the OO?


The threat of invasion by Germany was a lot more recent but I don't see anybody resurrecting Dad's Army.

[murray26]

Every support has one or two idiots but to try and compare hibs to the orange order to justify your arguement is poor.. You support the orange which is your right.. Each to there own.. I honestly feel you'd be more at home at I roc though.

[liamh2202]

Every support has one or two idiots but to try and compare hibs to the orange order to justify your arguement is poor.. You support the orange which is your right.. Each to there own.. I honestly feel you'd be more at home at I roc though.

No I wouldn't because I strongly believe there is no place for religion of any type at the football. I was comparing the minority who walk alongside a walk causing trouble to the minority in our support. Maybe it was a bad comparison but that was what I was intending.

[murray26]

Liam.. I know quite a few members of the lodge who I actually get on with.. But each and every one of them have a irrational hatred towards Catholics.. I can only hope they slowly die away but I fear they're like that stubborn wart that's going nowhere.. There's no positive message that mob will ever be able to send out..

[Pretty Boy]

Let's be honest the biggest threat to the OO these days comes not from the Roman Catholic Church but rather from changing moral, ethical and political attitudes and decreasing religious participation in the developed world. These are many of the same issues affecting the Catholic Church, maybe they could team up?

The idea the Order are fighting to protect their beliefs seems strange to me. As I said previously there are 1400 places of worship under the control of the COS in this country as well as Anglican, Free Church, Episcopalian..... As far as I'm aware there is no direct threat to these churches apart from the declining attendance I mentioned above. Protestant Christians in this country are, as far as religion is concerned, some of the least discriminated against people in the world. I wonder how their determination to protect individual religious freedom fits in with their frequent vocal attacks on the Catholic schooling system, part of the triangle of church, school and family many Catholics feel is of utmost importance? Finally the Orange Order is a fraternal organisation, not a religious organisation in it's own right.

I remember watching a very decent BBC documentary a few years ago called something like Faith, Football and Flute Bands. One of the couples featured were both members of the Order. They seemed decent enough sorts, if a bit obsessed with transubstantiation. This changed when they went for a Saturday night out at the Lodge. They were filmed dancing away as a band played a song asking if 'Fenian ****er' Bobby Sands fancied a chicken supper. Later we witnessed mother and daughter returning on a bus from the 12th July celebrations singing a lovely ditty about how last night they 'saw daddy building a bomb' and awoke the next morning to find 'the chapel was gone'. A modern, progressive organisation indeed. It's worth adding the father and son duo from the local Republican band were every bit as bad. Dad was proud of his son for not 'wasting his time with football and that' and instead 'focusing on the band'. Great childhood.

I'd love to know in what way membership in such organisations enriches or improves one's life. All that energy wasted on hatred seems strange to me. I pity them.

[weecounty hibby]

Years ago when I was at Falkirk college. I turned up and there was a new guy in my class who i had never clapped eys on before. As it was a Wednesday I had my Hibs scarf with me as we had a game on that night. "**** me" he says "I hope you're not another one of these fenian *******s." First words he ever spoke to me!!! As I got to know him it turns out he was in OO and played in The Fallin Crown Defenders flute band. I asked him why and he replied "if it wasn't for folk like me you would be ruled from Rome". I still know him and he is actually a clever normal guy. Except of course if you are a taig or fenian or any of the other words he used to describe Catholics.
I am neither catholic or protestant and do not believe in any one god so am not fussed about either but the OO really are a nasty bunch who are trying to paint themselves as just traditionalists who really are warm and fluffy. Well they're not. And unfortunately I have seen them in their full glory as Alloa has had Scotland's main march too often. It is NOT just the hangers on who cause trouble, the bands men are every bit as bad and the " crowd control" dudes are nothing more than glorified thugs