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InchHibby
28-05-2015, 09:29 PM
You can almost guarantee there will be moves afoot by all and sundry to ensure The Rangers will be back in the premier next season.
Every idiot/former player will be in the papers pleading their case.
I've read a few posts with some fans hoping they go up, thinking it will give us a better chance of winning the title, I say keep them down, we don't have nothing to fear, bring it on.

StevieC
28-05-2015, 09:36 PM
I said days ago that a Rangers failure would result in league reconstruction, and probably 3 teams getting automatic promotion.

Let's not forget though.. It's only half time!

RedHibby
28-05-2015, 09:38 PM
The League Reconstruction Meeting has been scheduled for 09:00 tomorrow. :greengrin

Leith_Hibee
28-05-2015, 09:40 PM
I know a wee bit about this.
Nothing can happen next season, that's a fact.
There is an ongoing discussion about the season after...nothing agreed yet.

Steve20
28-05-2015, 09:44 PM
Nah. That's just cynical people thinking that. 12 team league is here to stay.

lucky
28-05-2015, 09:47 PM
Hope so as we get back into the top league too

Pete
28-05-2015, 09:49 PM
Nah. That's just cynical people thinking that. 12 team league is here to stay.

...even though Neil Doncaster said that league reconstruction was a real possibility a few weeks ago?

Who exactly is being cynical here?

Leith_Hibee
28-05-2015, 09:49 PM
There is chat of the split incorporating Champ teams, I.e 3 x 8 (I know that doesn't add up on current structure) but stats say it works in other countries.

Danderhall Hibs
28-05-2015, 09:51 PM
No danger will there be reconstruction this season.

emerald green
28-05-2015, 10:07 PM
Does anyone seriously believe it's feasible for league reconstruction to take place in time for the start of next season, in a few weeks time? :faf:

andrew70
28-05-2015, 10:15 PM
Does anyone seriously believe it's feasible for league reconstruction to take place in time for the start of next season, in a few weeks time? :faf:

Texhnically there would be 8 less game days required so they could start the league later to ensure it comes to pass.

Pete
28-05-2015, 10:26 PM
Sounds to me like there are people out there who don't want what's best for Scottish football. Ridiculing the much needed change and putting obstacles in the way is only being selfish.

It's almost as if they want social unrest to happen.

emerald green
28-05-2015, 10:27 PM
Texhnically there would be 8 less game days required so they could start the league later to ensure it comes to pass.

I'm not sure I completely follow what you're saying, but you do realise don't you that all clubs would have to be consulted first, debate what is being proposed, and then vote on any proposed reconstruction.

It's by no means certain that some clubs would vote in favour of league reconstruction in any case. So how do they (presumably the SPFL?) "ensure it comes to pass"?

Springbank
28-05-2015, 10:29 PM
Any time up until the fixture list comes out it should be possible. It's really not difficult to arrange, it's no more tricky than setting up any type of rota.

andrew70
28-05-2015, 10:31 PM
I'm not sure I completely follow what you're saying, but you do realise don't you that all clubs would have to be consulted first, debate what is being proposed, and then vote on any proposed reconstruction.

It's by no means certain that some clubs would vote in favour of league reconstruction in any case. So how do they (presumably the SPFL?) "ensure it comes to pass"?

You are assuming that this won't have already been discussed. I may be assuming that it has but I certainly believe that the wheels are already in motion should the clubs wish to amend the structure.

The indications show that they are beginning to talk more and more about it.


NB: 30 games as opposed to 38

Jim Herriot
28-05-2015, 10:37 PM
The League Reconstruction Meeting has been scheduled for 09:00 tomorrow. :greengrin

With 12 minutes of extra time...

emerald green
28-05-2015, 10:40 PM
You are assuming that this won't have already been discussed. I may be assuming that it has but I certainly believe that the wheels are already in motion should the clubs wish to amend the structure.

The indications show that they are beginning to talk more and more about it.


NB: 30 games as opposed to 38

I'm not assuming anything. I just don't think it's feasible, or practical, in such a short timescale. And, as I said earlier, even if it was (and I am completely wrong) it's not a given that clubs would vote in favour of league reconstruction.

The bit in bold - what makes you believe this? Have you been told this for a fact by someone in a position of authority?

Zazu62
28-05-2015, 10:45 PM
1 years notice is required I think

Ozyhibby
28-05-2015, 10:55 PM
To change the set up for next season it would need all 42 teams to agree.
It is NEVER going to happen.

HoboHarry
28-05-2015, 10:59 PM
To change the set up for next season it would need all 42 teams to agree.
It is NEVER going to happen.
A vote would need to be unanimous? Is that in the rules?

O'Rourke3
28-05-2015, 11:02 PM
To change the set up for next season it would need all 42 teams to agree.
It is NEVER going to happen.
50% of all tv income split evenly in the bottom 3 leagues... Want a bet? Not saying it's on the cards but there are compelling ways the other teams could back this.

Sir David Gray
28-05-2015, 11:17 PM
I said days ago that a Rangers failure would result in league reconstruction, and probably 3 teams getting automatic promotion.

Let's not forget though.. It's only half time!

I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

Diclonius
28-05-2015, 11:22 PM
A vote would need to be unanimous? Is that in the rules?

Don't think so. I think the old "Old Firm veto" has been replaced by a "Premiership veto", effectively meaning the vote has to be 31-11 in favour.

HoboHarry
28-05-2015, 11:23 PM
Don't think so. I think the old "Old Firm veto" has been replaced by a "Premiership veto", effectively meaning the vote has to be 31-11 in favour.
I know - my question was aimed at the poster who said it would take the agreement of every club which is simply not true.

hibees 7062
28-05-2015, 11:46 PM
1 years notice is required I think

Easily changed to suit mate . The Rangers will be promoted no matter what is what i heard

Delboy4
28-05-2015, 11:47 PM
To change the set up for next season it would need all 42 teams to agree.
It is NEVER going to happen.

What happens if Ladbrokes say that they will double their sponsorship from £2m to £4m (which is nothing to them) if the SFA make it a 16 team league...money talks remember!!

J-C
29-05-2015, 12:01 AM
No one expected us, Hearts and Rangers to be where we were this season, when it came about everyone thought Rangers would be the team to beat, so if us or Hearts didn't make it up, no one was bothered. Fast forward a few months, Hearts walk the league and Rangers have a pish manager, all the hierarchy panic as the money from sponsors is drying up and Rangers in the top league guarantees extra tv money and league money, queue reconstruction which has already been discussed by all the clubs ( probably ).

hibbyboy1
29-05-2015, 04:50 AM
They will probably say that league reconstruction had been agreed six months ago and didn't want to say anything, so as to avoid a lot of meaningless games.

Beefster
29-05-2015, 05:50 AM
No danger will there be reconstruction this season.

Yup. It gives some folk a chance to get their knickers in a twist though.

Geo_1875
29-05-2015, 06:17 AM
You are assuming that this won't have already been discussed. I may be assuming that it has but I certainly believe that the wheels are already in motion should the clubs wish to amend the structure.

The indications show that they are beginning to talk more and more about it.


NB: 30 games as opposed to 38

"Here's one we prepared earlier."

Onion
29-05-2015, 06:45 AM
Not going to happen for next season but every chance for 2016/17 to ensure Huns and us go up. Agree the Huns will strengthen massively in the summer and might stroll the league, but the SFA/SPFL will not want to risk a repeat of the Yam situation with Hibs winning the league and Huns getting dumped in the POs.

Danderhall Hibs
29-05-2015, 06:52 AM
Easily changed to suit mate . The Rangers will be promoted no matter what is what i heard

Where from? Bloke in the pub? Conspiracy theorist on the internet?

Jim44
29-05-2015, 06:54 AM
I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

Cheeky. Keep us out of it.

scoopyboy
29-05-2015, 06:54 AM
I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

Bet you thought somebody would have picked you up on this long before now!!!

Godsahibby
29-05-2015, 06:58 AM
Can't see reconstruction happening, certainly not for the start of next season

Ronniekirk
29-05-2015, 07:33 AM
I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

I only watched the last 15 minutes or so and Rangers had the better chances during that period and Motherwell players looked tired So if Rangers can get the first goal you never know ,but it's hard to see Motherwell not scoring against them at home if they managed three away from home .

Lee Marvin
29-05-2015, 07:36 AM
Surely giving 1 years notice for league reconstruction makes that year almost meaningless for a large majority of teams? I.e no relegation or promotion to play for, therefore what is the point?

If hibs know it's going to happen year after next, why bother with the season? Play young team and save money for the next again season

StevieC
29-05-2015, 07:51 AM
I only watched the last 15 minutes or so and Rangers had the better chances during that period and Motherwell players looked tired


I only saw the highlights, but the Motherwell tactics seemed to be to hit them on the break. A few times I saw the full backs sprinting up the wings whenever 'Well broke, so it's little wonder they tired. I doubt they will adopt the same tactics going into the home game with a 3-1 lead and might be able to pace themselves.

emerald green
29-05-2015, 08:35 AM
I've done a wee bit of background reading on this subject.

The last time there was league reconstruction was agreed was in June 2013 when the Scottish Football League (SFL) clubs voted in favour, paving the way for the creation of the new Scottish Professional Football League (SPFL).

That decision to approve reconstruction plans followed the unanimous decision of the Scottish Premier League (SPL) clubs to give the proposals the go ahead, meaning the 2 league bodies merged to form the SPFL that summer. Whether that would be the case again, who knows, but see below.

At a meeting at Hampden, 23 SFL clubs voted to approve the change, with 6 voting against. 22 of the 29 clubs entitled to vote were required to vote in favour for the plans to be given the go ahead. That vote came just weeks after an indicative vote from SFL clubs failed to get 22 votes, prompting the threat of a breakaway by First Division clubs, who said they would apply to join the SPL. Talks subsequently persuaded a change of heart by some clubs. I wonder what it was that persuaded that change of heart? I can guess.

It was this reconstruction that introduced play-offs, and a new financial distribution plan that benefited then current first division clubs in particular.


I don't know how long the above decisions and plans had been in the making. Had the clubs been discussing this for months / years prior to this decision?

It seems to me (but I might be wrong) it's by no means certain that further league reconstruction would necessarily be agreed again, especially since the current set up has been in place for such a relatively short period of time. I suspect certain clubs will vote against any reconstruction in order to protect their own financial interests.

How feasible and / or practical it is for any league reconstruction taking place in time for next season is another matter. I don't think it would be feasible or practical, given the time constraints, and especially with clubs trying to plan and prepare for next season.

What would be sponsors views on any league reconstruction be and so on?

Thief
29-05-2015, 08:56 AM
What would be sponsors views on any league reconstruction be and so on?

Well researched and tend to agree with everything you've said, however, that last sentence would, in my opinion, be what determines whether it happens or not. Ladbrokes/sky/BT sports can have a hell of an influence and
as someone mentioned earlier, a fairer share of sponsors and TV revenue could easily secure the required votes.

Houchy
29-05-2015, 08:58 AM
I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

Apart from Hibs you mean? Remember last season when we were 2-0 up at New Douglas Park then lost on penalties.

emerald green
29-05-2015, 09:04 AM
Well researched and tend to agree with everything you've said, however, that last sentence would, in my opinion, be what determines whether it happens or not. Ladbrokes/sky/BT sports can have a hell of an influence and
as someone mentioned earlier, a fairer share of sponsors and TV revenue could easily secure the required votes.

Cheers. You could well be right in what you say.

I would welcome league reconstruction for the start of next season (if it was to the benefit of Hibs) but whether that's going to be possible or not we'll know in the next few weeks maybe?

Ozyhibby
29-05-2015, 09:11 AM
When the SPFL was formed it was agreed that if there was to be further reorganisation within 3 years then it would need the unanimous approval of all 42 clubs.
It's not going to happen.

hibsmad
29-05-2015, 09:57 AM
When the SPFL was formed it was agreed that if there was to be further reorganisation within 3 years then it would need the unanimous approval of all 42 clubs.
It's not going to happen.

If it was to happen in 2016, which I believe is what most people are discussing, then that would be 3 years would it not?

Hank Schrader
29-05-2015, 10:05 AM
Apart from Hibs you mean? Remember last season when we were 2-0 up at New Douglas Park then lost on penalties.

I think Trigs tongue was firmly in his cheek when he posted that! :greengrin

Waxy
29-05-2015, 10:11 AM
I'd keep what we have now. Not ideal but alternatives are all worse.unless we go back to bigger leagues playing each other twice.

Arch Stanton
29-05-2015, 10:14 AM
I only saw the highlights, but the Motherwell tactics seemed to be to hit them on the break. A few times I saw the full backs sprinting up the wings whenever 'Well broke, so it's little wonder they tired. I doubt they will adopt the same tactics going into the home game with a 3-1 lead and might be able to pace themselves.

The two young subs he brought on did really well and were the reason they finished so strongly - I can see them both starting on Sun.

However, this is their 5th important game in two weeks so I think it will be hard for them to match Motherwell.

Thief
29-05-2015, 10:21 AM
Cheers. You could be well be right in what you say.

I would welcome league reconstruction for the start of next season (if it was to the benefit of Hibs) but whether that's going to be possible or not we'll know in the next few weeks maybe?

I personally don't think it will happen for next season.
Only point I was making is that money talks, and if it does happen, it would be initiated by ladbrokes, BT sports and sky.
We've probably all heard the (unsubstantiated) rumour of the clause in the ladbrokes sponsorship about minimum number of old firm derby's. :-)

jacomo
29-05-2015, 10:26 AM
I'd keep what we have now. Not ideal but alternatives are all worse.unless we go back to bigger leagues playing each other twice.

I think bigger leagues very much on the agenda.

Bill Milne
29-05-2015, 10:27 AM
Don't be too sure of Sevco failing!! With Craig Thomson reffing the 2nd leg, there is still hope for The New Bigots.

emerald green
29-05-2015, 10:37 AM
I personally don't think it will happen for next season.
Only point I was making is that money talks, and if it does happen, it would be initiated by ladbrokes, BT sports and sky.
We've probably all heard the (unsubstantiated) rumour of the clause in the ladbrokes sponsorship about minimum number of old firm derby's. :-)

Me neither.

I agree again - money talks. :aok:

GreenPJ
29-05-2015, 10:48 AM
Ask Ladbrokes to quote a price for league reconstruction in place for next season today and ask again after the next leg if Rangers don't get through - there will be the answer

hibees 7062
29-05-2015, 11:18 AM
Where from? Bloke in the pub? Conspiracy theorist on the internet?

Staff member at Hamilton

WeeRussell
29-05-2015, 11:28 AM
It would be interesting to see how many of the people crying out for league reconstruction, to have more teams in the top flight, are the same people who are desperate to get out of this league as they are 'sick of going to sh*te holes' in the championship to play crap teams. :greengrin

jockodile
29-05-2015, 11:29 AM
16 team league with a top 6 finals series like the A-league.
celtic still favourites but not guaranteed.

Spfl is utterly boring as it is and dying on its erchie

Bristolhibby
29-05-2015, 11:32 AM
For all we know there are two prices in the Sponsorship Contract. One with Rangers in the top flight, and one without.

For League Reconstruction to happen for next season, talks would have to be advanced, and the lower league clubs would have to know how much of that (extra) sugar would be heading their way.

Premier clubs would also have to recognise that it would mean less Celtic home games, but that would be balanced out by having more Rangers, Hibs and Hearts games.

It can be done, will it be done, not sure.

I'm sure that what ever basket case financial management plan The The Rangers have will be predicated in going up this season. That will hurt them.

J

Ozyhibby
29-05-2015, 11:46 AM
16 team league with a top 6 finals series like the A-league.
celtic still favourites but not guaranteed.

Spfl is utterly boring as it is and dying on its erchie

That would be a great set up but I can't see people in Scotland going for it. Too different from what they are used to.

CraigHibee
29-05-2015, 12:05 PM
I think the tie's done, personally.

I can't see a Premiership side losing a two goal lead, going into the home leg against a Championship team.

could never possibly happen... could it? :cb

Pete
29-05-2015, 12:28 PM
For all we know there are two prices in the Sponsorship Contract. One with Rangers in the top flight, and one without.

For League Reconstruction to happen for next season, talks would have to be advanced, and the lower league clubs would have to know how much of that (extra) sugar would be heading their way.

Premier clubs would also have to recognise that it would mean less Celtic home games, but that would be balanced out by having more Rangers, Hibs and Hearts games.

It can be done, will it be done, not sure.

I'm sure that what ever basket case financial management plan The The Rangers have will be predicated in going up this season. That will hurt them.

J

I would be very surprised if this wasn't the case. To the money men, the old firm game IS Scottish football and it's in their interests for it to happen sooner rather than later.

If Motherwell stay up it's pretty much guaranteed that "change" will happen for 16/17 if not sooner. It might end up being a procession as it's announced that four teams will be promoted this year with no relegation from the top flight.

Ladbrokes aren't some white knight and there's one reason they are putting money in which is the guarantee that they will eventually get something back...a bigotfest.

Vini1875
29-05-2015, 12:38 PM
For the fans a 16 team league playing each team twice would be ideal. It would give everyone more of a chance against the OF and would give less of a congested programme over the season, plus it would cost less. Away trips might be more attractive since you only have to visit once. However the clubs especially the smaller clubs won't agree to only one visit from the OF and less home games. Also TV want 4 OF games.

I think it is short sighted, as the league would be more attractive and in turn would bring in more fans. The OF might not like if there is a chance other teams might challenge for the league.

Ozyhibby
29-05-2015, 12:42 PM
For the fans a 16 team league playing each team twice would be ideal. It would give everyone more of a chance against the OF and would give less of a congested programme over the season, plus it would cost less. Away trips might be more attractive since you only have to visit once. However the clubs especially the smaller clubs won't agree to only one visit from the OF and less home games. Also TV want 4 OF games.

I think it is short sighted, as the league would be more attractive and in turn would bring in more fans. The OF might not like if there is a chance other teams might challenge for the league.

It's usually the mid sized clubs like Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd who object to this set up.
It's three less home games a year so budgets would have to be cut.
Less cat A games as well.
Not saying it's not the best solution, just that it's usually our club who object to this first.

NAE NOOKIE
29-05-2015, 01:08 PM
A league of 14 or 16 teams has been discussed for some years now and has had broad support amongst any fans groups who have been asked to voice an opinion, not to mention on here. ....... 18 is never going to happen though.

If the real prospect of the current buns failing to go up concentrates minds on the subject I for one wont be complaining about it, especially if it benefits us. It can happen in time for next season with an 8/8 or 10/6 split. The evidence that it might happen and the up side for clubs is pretty clear to me.

Not 3 months ago the national team manager was saying it will benefit the game.
The players union is now making noises about clubs going part time.
There has to be clauses in the new league sponsorship deal for The Rangers not being in the top league.
The SPFL are about to push for a new TV deal, their bargaining position will increase hugely with the Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee derbies on the table.
Not one of the possible 16 clubs is going to vote against this, especially the ones who will benefit from the The Rangers and Hibs bigger away supports and the ones like us who will go up as a result.

As it stands the chances of any championship club outside of The Rangers, Hibs or St Mirren being promoted next season under the current system are slim to none. If you are chairman of Falkirk and you have the prospect of a championship next year minus The Rangers, Hibs, QOTS and St Mirren with two automatic promotion places and at least one play off place, what would you vote for?

To give a years public notice of any league expansion rendering a third of the following season meaningless to at least half the clubs and their supporters would be economic suicide ..... I cant believe even our blazers would be that stupid.

As far as I can see there is every reason to do this now ..... the fact that it might be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons I.E. the promotion of the current buns makes the pill a wee bit harder to swallow .... but if the pill cures so many ills, frankly who cares.

Ozyhibby
29-05-2015, 01:12 PM
A league of 14 or 16 teams has been discussed for some years now and has had broad support amongst any fans groups who have been asked to voice an opinion, not to mention on here. ....... 18 is never going to happen though.

If the real prospect of the current buns failing to go up concentrates minds on the subject I for one wont be complaining about it, especially if it benefits us. It can happen in time for next season with an 8/8 or 10/6 split. The evidence that it might happen and the up side for clubs is pretty clear to me.

Not 3 months ago the national team manager was saying it will benefit the game.
The players union is now making noises about clubs going part time.
There has to be clauses in the new league sponsorship deal for The Rangers not being in the top league.
The SPFL are about to push for a new TV deal, their bargaining position will increase hugely with the Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee derbies on the table.
Not one of the possible 16 clubs is going to vote against this, especially the ones who will benefit from the The Rangers and Hibs bigger away supports.

As it stands the chances of any championship club outside of The Rangers, Hibs or St Mirren being promoted next season under the current system are slim to none. If you are chairman of Falkirk or QOTS and you have the prospect of a championship next year minus The Rangers, Hibs and St Mirren with two automatic promotion places and at least one play off place, what would you vote for?

To give a years public notice of any league expansion rendering a third of the following season meaningless to at least half the clubs and their supporters would be economic suicide ..... I cant believe even our blazers would be that stupid.

As far as I can see there is every reason to do this now ..... the fact that it might be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons I.E. the promotion of the current buns makes the pill a wee bit harder to swallow .... but if the pill cures so many ills, frankly who cares.

Except you need all 42 clubs to agree

pennyhibee
29-05-2015, 01:24 PM
No idea if it might happen but if they don't go up the SPFL will be extremely worried about an already troubled scenario in Scotland Didn't fancy them to beat 'Well and I think am not the only one

NAE NOOKIE
29-05-2015, 01:31 PM
Except you need all 42 clubs to agree

I'm quite sure there are ways to change that. As it is I cant see why any club would vote against to be honest, bearing in mind that to beef up the leagues below several clubs who would not have been promoted will be because we will almost certainly revert to 3 top leagues rather than 4

Besides ....... any business which rigidly sticks to a rule or operating method which is so obviously counter productive to its well being is heading for the buffers IMO.

GreenCastle
29-05-2015, 01:35 PM
For the upcoming season the format will be the same.

I think there is a high possibly we will see futhur discussions made about at the end of the coming season the top league expanding.

16 I believe would be the way forward - play each team twice - crowds and excitement would build as league would be closer plus we will only see certain teams once a season at ER. Fans are bored of the 4+ times they play each other and the associated costs.

Meaningless games - possibly only towards end of season but keep the derbies later plus other leagues have meaningless games.

Keep play offs - but make them like England - possibly regionalise the leagues below but have a one off winner takes all game to be promoted.

Haven't had a chance to read all this but anything in here about change of league structure ?

http://spfl.co.uk/spfl/

What's the latest about voting structure ? Still 10-2 in top league ?

bod
29-05-2015, 01:36 PM
there's no chance of a bigger top league for this coming season :no way:

NAE NOOKIE
29-05-2015, 01:50 PM
there's no chance of a bigger top league for this coming season :no way:

Probably not. I cant think of a single down side for Hibs or the game in general of changing the set up now. I can think of a pile of advantages across the board ........ so as you say it wont happen.

Smartie
29-05-2015, 02:14 PM
Probably not. I cant think of a single down side for Hibs or the game in general of changing the set up now. I can think of a pile of advantages across the board ........ so as you say it wont happen.

Sporting integrity?

We knew what we were playing for at the start of last season, we failed, The Rangers look like failing, we should be in the Championship next season, end of story.

Before a ball is kicked next season we should sort out exactly what is happening next summer re organisation/ league reconstruction.

As soon as the season starts it is too late - you cannot change what you are playing for mid-competition.

There is enough of a whiff of different types of corruption around football at the moment to go moving goalposts.

FWIW I am in favour of league reconstruction to a bigger league and I am in favour of better wealth distribution in the Scottish game to enhance the "competitive" nature of the leagues and improve the spectacle. I think there's a lot that is good about Scottish football that could potentially be even better but we have to get away from the mindset that it's all about 2 teams.

speedy_gonzales
29-05-2015, 02:29 PM
I think most of us agree that the league set-up does need overhauled, possibly bigger premier and championship, FA style play-off final at Hampden, but whatever the clubs agree, I hope they agree an implementation date 2 or 3 years after the meeting. It wouldn't sit well with me if it looked like changes were made because some clubs are "too big" to sit in the lower leagues, ourselves included. We are where we are on merit and I don't like the idea of our club being tarnished with any impropriety!

EDIT: just seen Smartie's post above, couldn't agree more!

GreenPJ
29-05-2015, 02:38 PM
Sporting integrity?

We knew what we were playing for at the start of last season, we failed, The Rangers look like failing, we should be in the Championship next season, end of story.

Before a ball is kicked next season we should sort out exactly what is happening next summer re organisation/ league reconstruction.

As soon as the season starts it is too late - you cannot change what you are playing for mid-competition.

There is enough of a whiff of different types of corruption around football at the moment to go moving goalposts.

FWIW I am in favour of league reconstruction to a bigger league and I am in favour of better wealth distribution in the Scottish game to enhance the "competitive" nature of the leagues and improve the spectacle. I think there's a lot that is good about Scottish football that could potentially be even better but we have to get away from the mindset that it's all about 2 teams.

What good is it really to tell clubs an entire season in advance that if they finish top 4 they are promoted and potentially no one gets relegated - you would have lots of meaningless games. At least if they did go for reconstruction the season was conducted in a competitive nature at the end of the regular season all 3 teams still had the possibility of going up and due to reconstruction they did - personally I think that is preferable than having a sterile season.

NAE NOOKIE
29-05-2015, 02:38 PM
Sporting integrity?

We knew what we were playing for at the start of last season, we failed, The Rangers look like failing, we should be in the Championship next season, end of story.

Before a ball is kicked next season we should sort out exactly what is happening next summer re organisation/ league reconstruction.

As soon as the season starts it is too late - you cannot change what you are playing for mid-competition.

There is enough of a whiff of different types of corruption around football at the moment to go moving goalposts.

FWIW I am in favour of league reconstruction to a bigger league and I am in favour of better wealth distribution in the Scottish game to enhance the "competitive" nature of the leagues and improve the spectacle. I think there's a lot that is good about Scottish football that could potentially be even better but we have to get away from the mindset that it's all about 2 teams.

If it wasn't for the fact that we have been banging on about wanting a bigger league for the last 3 seasons I would agree with you. I'm not pretending getting the current buns into the top league wouldn't be what finally gets the SPFL off their ***** and doing what they should already have done before now ..... but they wouldn't be the first club to benefit from league reconstruction in Scotland or around the world and they wont be the last. For me the benefits to everybody outweigh my revulsion of the Huns.

DH1875
29-05-2015, 02:41 PM
Don't think it'll happen in time for next season but reckon there's every chance of it happening for the season after. Their gonna have to get the ball rolling on that cause they need some sort of plan for when we win the league and rangers find themselves in this league for a third year.

The_Exile
29-05-2015, 02:54 PM
I'm fed up hearing about the "it's less home games" argument and "budgets will need to be cut". Simple solution is that every single club goes into the cups at the 1st round, or regionalise the league cup up til the quarter finals. Problem solved. You're welcome :greengrin

greenginger
29-05-2015, 03:17 PM
For the upcoming season the format will be the same.

I think there is a high possibly we will see futhur discussions made about at the end of the coming season the top league expanding.

16 I believe would be the way forward - play each team twice - crowds and excitement would build as league would be closer plus we will only see certain teams once a season at ER. Fans are bored of the 4+ times they play each other and the associated costs.

Meaningless games - possibly only towards end of season but keep the derbies later plus other leagues have meaningless games.

Keep play offs - but make them like England - possibly regionalise the leagues below but have a one off winner takes all game to be promoted.

Haven't had a chance to read all this but anything in here about change of league structure ?

http://spfl.co.uk/spfl/

What's the latest about voting structure ? Still 10-2 in top league ?


SPFL Articles of Association

http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__articlesofassociationofthescottishprofess ionalfootballleaguelimitedasat1january2015_1420461 960.pdf


Page 8, To pass an ordinary resolution, which I think covers the number of clubs in each division, requires a 75% majority of Premiership clubs, 75% of Championship Clubs and 75% of Div 1 and 2 clubs.

I don't think the ugly sisters can block anything by themselves any more.

Nando™
29-05-2015, 03:24 PM
I'm fed up hearing about the "it's less home games" argument and "budgets will need to be cut". Simple solution is that every single club goes into the cups at the 1st round, or regionalise the league cup up til the quarter finals. Problem solved. You're welcome :greengrin

It would be great for the wee incy wincy teams drawing a premier club in the Scottish. I like the idea.

CropleyWasGod
29-05-2015, 03:27 PM
SPFL Articles of Association

http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__articlesofassociationofthescottishprofess ionalfootballleaguelimitedasat1january2015_1420461 960.pdf


Page 8, To pass an ordinary resolution, which I think covers the number of clubs in each division, requires a 75% majority of Premiership clubs, 75% of Championship Clubs and 75% of Div 1 and 2 clubs.

I don't think the ugly sisters can block anything by themselves any more.

CBA reading through it....:greengrin

Does reconstruction need an OR, or would it have to be a Special Resolution?

FWIW, I couldn't see 75% of the Championship clubs voting for reconstruction if it was going to lose them the income from Rangers and Hibs.

greenginger
29-05-2015, 03:54 PM
CBA reading through it....:greengrin

Does reconstruction need an OR, or would it have to be a Special Resolution?

FWIW, I couldn't see 75% of the Championship clubs voting for reconstruction if it was going to lose them the income from Rangers and Hibs.

I think it would be ordinary. The league revenue is split 1 to 42 through all the leagues, so the make up of each league does not alter the overall position or income which would require a Special Resolution to amend .

And, no I can't find the voting requirements for Special R's anywhere. :greengrin


Afterthought , Championship clubs could go for a bigger top div. if they see the opportunity of getting up there.

Jim44
29-05-2015, 04:01 PM
All this talk of hurried legislation for reconstruction is a bit premature as it won't surprise me if Sevco beat Motherwell on penalties. Everything will then be hunky dory till Celtic and Sevco decide what's going to happen.

Springbank
29-05-2015, 04:03 PM
CBA reading through it....:greengrin

Does reconstruction need an OR, or would it have to be a Special Resolution?

FWIW, I couldn't see 75% of the Championship clubs voting for reconstruction if it was going to lose them the income from Rangers and Hibs.

Not insurmountable

If the TV & sponsor contracts would net say £1m extra for the sport (with Hibs and Rangers in the top tier) but 6 clubs might lose £40k each from loss of revenue from the games in 15/16, organise to pay them that parachute payment and the greater good is served, plus injured parties reimbursed

greenginger
29-05-2015, 04:04 PM
I'm fed up hearing about the "it's less home games" argument and "budgets will need to be cut". Simple solution is that every single club goes into the cups at the 1st round, or regionalise the league cup up til the quarter finals. Problem solved. You're welcome :greengrin


Or bring back the qualifying divisions for the league cup. Minimum 6 games at the start of the season. I used to enjoy them back in the day.

Boys Gate 9 d,, adults 1/6 , bet that's got all under 50's thinking :greengrin

GordonHFC
29-05-2015, 04:09 PM
Or bring back the qualifying divisions for the league cup. Minimum 6 games at the start of the season. I used to enjoy them back in the day.

Boys Gate 9 d,, adults 1/6 , bet that's got all under 50's thinking :greengrin

7.5p to get in. Bring it back 😀

Bristolhibby
29-05-2015, 10:27 PM
CBA reading through it....:greengrin

Does reconstruction need an OR, or would it have to be a Special Resolution?

FWIW, I couldn't see 75% of the Championship clubs voting for reconstruction if it was going to lose them the income from Rangers and Hibs.

Surely 50% of Championship teams would vote yes as it would mean instant promotion. Likewise, St. Mirren would definitely vote yes.

J

CropleyWasGod
29-05-2015, 10:28 PM
Surely 50% of Championship teams would vote yes as it would mean instant promotion. Likewise, St. Mirren would definitely vote yes.

J

They need 75%, though.

malagahibby
30-05-2015, 06:43 AM
It's not going to happen .
Let's just get a team that can win the league and get 15k back to ER every home game and look after ourselves .

DH1875
30-05-2015, 07:43 AM
It's not going to happen .
Let's just get a team that can win the league and get 15k back to ER every home game and look after ourselves .

Not this season it won't. But do you honestly think their gonna risk rangers being in this division for a third year in a row? They need to start making plans now for when we win the league next year.

Ronniekirk
30-05-2015, 07:54 AM
CBA reading through it....:greengrin

Does reconstruction need an OR, or would it have to be a Special Resolution?

FWIW, I couldn't see 75% of the Championship clubs voting for reconstruction if it was going to lose them the income from Rangers and Hibs.
Agree 75 % wouldn't vote for this as the whole purpose of the last reconstruction was to spread more money down the divisions They rightly won't want to change that ,and those in the Championshiip probably can't believe hibs and rangers are still there for another season ( depending on Sunday's game of course ) ,guaranteeing them big crowds for those games they play us at home .St Mirren if in top four ,are also capable of taking a reasonable away support and Morton will also have novelty factor and have decent travelling support .Am almost talking myself round to looking forward to another Season down there
However it's the thought of how difficult it could be be to get promoted next season that is the Financial crux of the matter for us Will be interesting to see how Season Tickets fair once it's clear Rangers are in the Championship I think we would of seen an increase in sales if they had gone up but it's now all down to what quality players we can keep and who we can bring in .The longer that process takes I think Sales will remain fairly static

MyJo
31-05-2015, 09:32 AM
http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/scottish-football-set-for-battle-over-revolution-1.878370

Danderhall Hibs
31-05-2015, 09:38 AM
http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/scottish-football-set-for-battle-over-revolution-1.878370

So not next season then?

StevieC
31-05-2015, 09:50 AM
I was at a function last night and was speaking to someone high up in the SFA. He stated there there is absolutley no chance of any league reconstruction for 2015/16.

He started getting a bit evasive when pushed on 2016/17.

Keith_M
31-05-2015, 10:03 AM
http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/scottish-football-set-for-battle-over-revolution-1.878370


Two leagues of twelve, splitting into 3 leagues of 8.

The article points out it was a system used in both Switzerland and Austria(hadn't hard of it in Austria, but I'll take his word for it). What it fails to mention was that it has long since been dumped over there.


Can't they just give up on there complicated scenarios and have a top league of 16-18?

zolliehibs
31-05-2015, 10:18 AM
Two leagues of twelve, splitting into 3 leagues of 8.

The article points out it was a system used in both Switzerland and Austria(hadn't hard of it in Austria, but I'll take his word for it). What it fails to mention was that it has long since been dumped over there.


Can't they just give up on there complicated scenarios and have a top league of 16-18?

Exactly this. Was used in Slovakia briefly and emptied there too!

Danderhall Hibs
31-05-2015, 10:35 AM
I dont think I understand it? You keep the points already gained?

So the teams at the top of the championship who've bagged loads of points against Alloa and Dumbarton take those with them and join the teams who don't have many after having been battered by Celtic and Aberdeen?

Eyrie
31-05-2015, 10:43 AM
Two leagues of twelve, splitting into 3 leagues of 8.

The article points out it was a system used in both Switzerland and Austria(hadn't hard of it in Austria, but I'll take his word for it). What it fails to mention was that it has long since been dumped over there.


Can't they just give up on there complicated scenarios and have a top league of 16-18?

I still think that 12-12 splitting into 8-8-8 is a good idea, but it was rejected two years ago so can't see it being approved any time soon.

killie-hibby
31-05-2015, 10:59 AM
http://www.sundaypost.com/sport/football/scottish-football-set-for-battle-over-revolution-1.878370

The Sunday Post article gives no reference to what most supporters want ie larger leagues,obviating the need to play the same teams four times. Instead it states what sponsors and broadcasters would like.
If restructure comes it must be a system suited to fans and supporters first,sponsors and broadcasters second.
I don't think His have benefitted from TV money when considering the substantial number of supporters who stay away from televised games particularly those with Sunday and Saturday early kick offs.

ScottB
31-05-2015, 03:19 PM
I dont think I understand it? You keep the points already gained?

So the teams at the top of the championship who've bagged loads of points against Alloa and Dumbarton take those with them and join the teams who don't have many after having been battered by Celtic and Aberdeen?

Not quite, Hibs would have kept the points won against Hearts, Rangers and QoS, Motherwell would have had the points won against the 3 other top league teams coming down.

Really, it's a system that would give the lower four an advantage, as they'll likely have been winning games, while the top four would have presumably been struggling to end up coming down I the first place. Seems a bit convoluted.

Danderhall Hibs
31-05-2015, 03:20 PM
Not quite, Hibs would have kept the points won against Hearts, Rangers and QoS, Motherwell would have had the points won against the 3 other top league teams coming down.

Really, it's a system that would give the lower four an advantage, as they'll likely have been winning games, while the top four would have presumably been struggling to end up coming down I the first place. Seems a bit convoluted.

Cheers mate - that makes more sense to me. Still ridiculous like but makes sense. :greengrin

MyJo
31-05-2015, 03:42 PM
Not quite, Hibs would have kept the points won against Hearts, Rangers and QoS, Motherwell would have had the points won against the 3 other top league teams coming down.

Really, it's a system that would give the lower four an advantage, as they'll likely have been winning games, while the top four would have presumably been struggling to end up coming down I the first place. Seems a bit convoluted.

While im not against the the leagues of 8 idea they are talking about keeping points won against certain teams seems like a complete faff, would be better off resetting everyones points in each of the the three leagues and starting again, would give more of a chance to those in the top 8 of challenging celtic for the title as well.

would still prefer 2 16 team leagues and change to the league cup structure, maybe the fact that there will be pretty big teams (Us, rangers, St Mirren and Falkirk) likely to be at the top end of the table next season would work in favour of expanding the league to 16 rather than sticking with 12.

pontius pilate
31-05-2015, 04:17 PM
Don't see why we can't go to a top league set up of 16 I understand the format currently being discussed but I don't see the need or requirement to make it more complicated. Keep it simple or have a play off situation for the title like they do in rugby pro 12. Two down 2 automatic relegations. 1 auto promotion and 1 play off like they do down south

Keith_M
31-05-2015, 04:24 PM
Don't see why we can't go to a top league set up of 16 I understand the format currently being discussed but I don't see the need or requirement to make it more complicated. Keep it simple or have a play off situation for the title like they do in rugby pro 12. Two down 2 automatic relegations. 1 auto promotion and 1 play off like they do down south


Agreed, but sixteen teams means four less home games.

I can't see many clubs going for that unless they increase matches in other competitions.

HoboHarry
31-05-2015, 04:25 PM
Agreed, but sixteen teams means four less home games.

I can't see many clubs going for that unless they increase matches in other competitions.
Or perhaps Ladbrokes are offering more money if Rangers are in the top league?

The_Horde
31-05-2015, 04:25 PM
Agreed, but sixteen teams means four less home games.

I can't see many clubs going for that unless they increase matches in other competitions.

Then make the league cup actual mini leagues.

J-C
31-05-2015, 04:26 PM
If they want the Huns up then they have to increase the leagues, so this 12-12 with 3x8 split will never take off.

Nando™
31-05-2015, 04:53 PM
Any kind of league structure that includes the resetting of points after x amount of games to give clubs more of a chance to win the title is an abortion of an idea. It's almost as bad as the structure in some sports where the top two teams (no matter what the points difference betwenn them is) play a final to determine the champions for that season.

Absolute tosh that completely devalues the entire league.

Diclonius
31-05-2015, 04:53 PM
Agreed, but sixteen teams means four less home games.

I can't see many clubs going for that unless they increase matches in other competitions.

Play each other twice, leagues split in half, play your half of the league twice again. 44 games a season. The English Championship manages less.

seanshow
31-05-2015, 05:08 PM
If they want the Huns up then they have to increase the leagues,

never going to happen,
if we remember in 2009 i think it was, the then SPL undertook a 6 month investigation into how to improve the stale situation in scottish football...We all waited for the report, rumours of summer football and a 18 team league were being talked about.
Then at a press conference, donkey doncaster released the new vision to the world.
We will keep playing football in winter.
move to a 10 team league.
certain teams can disappear of for friendly matches at will,turning it into a laughing stock.and the propsal was rightly rejected.
......and then funnily enough months later Henry McLeish released his report on scottish football which conveniently made the same recommendations for a 10 team league. :cb

As much as I'd like to see a 16 or 18 team league,I don't see the clubs ever voting for a league to play less games, unless we get a proper broadcast rights deal instead of the mickeymouse one percent of the EPL deal we get at thew moment, to fill the gap financially.

Springbank
31-05-2015, 05:18 PM
never going to happen,
if we remember in 2009 i think it was, the then SPL undertook a 6 month investigation into how to improve the stale situation in scottish football...We all waited for the report, rumours of summer football and a 18 team league were being talked about.
Then at a press conference, donkey doncaster released the new vision to the world.

We will keep playing football in winter.
move to a 10 team league.
certain teams can disappear of for friendly matches at will,turning it into a laughing stock.

and the propsal was rightly rejected.
......and then funnily enough months later Henry McLeish released his report on scottish football which conveniently made the same recommendations for a 10 team league. :cb

As much as I'd like to see a 16 or 18 team league,I don't see the clubs ever voting for a league to play less games, unless we get a proper broadcast rights deal instead of the mickeymouse one percent of the EPL deal we get at thew moment, to fill the gap financially.


And the crowds keep falling...falling...falling....
p4 times a season against the same old, same old is finished I even enjoyed the novelty of playing different teams in different venues this season

adhibs
31-05-2015, 07:14 PM
I never get the complaint about playing teams 4 times a season. Maybe because I mainly go to home games so only see two of them. Every match plays out different though, regardless who the opposition is. I do support a bigger league but, even the two leagues splitting into three 8's sounds like it may be ok

lucky
31-05-2015, 07:40 PM
16-16-10, play 30 games, but if we must increase the number games. Play off for relegation, Championship and European places could introduced. It's time they started listening to the fans rather than boardcasters

chippy
31-05-2015, 08:25 PM
16-16-10, play 30 games, but if we must increase the number games. Play off for relegation, Championship and European places could introduced. It's time they started listening to the fans rather than boardcasters
Absolutely correct the argument against a 16 team league used to be not enough strong teams. That is now demonstrably tosh. The current anti 16 line is not enough games and/Or not enough big games for TV deals like 4 Old Firms and Edinburgh derbies. Yet it would be pretty simple to construct a series of splits at season end after 30 games to have an exciting season finale that would probably eventually include a further 2 old firm games and other big games if the top 6 split and played each other home and away as additional games. All points carried forward.The title would be at stake as would all the euro places bar one. In Belgium the 8 teams below the top 6 go into 2 sections of 4 play each other home and away. The section winners play off to then take on the 4th or 5th or 6th team in the top 6 for the final euro slot. They also have play offs for the bottom 2 clubs for relegation. Though we could just relegate one or both or make one or both play off with top clubs in league below. We can modify this ourselves. I prefer this to the 12-12 and split into 3 8s as I think the 3 8s will not allow Scottish youth to flourish whereas the 16 league model

Eyrie
31-05-2015, 09:55 PM
A 16 team league means fewer home games and a loss of income. Any attempt to compensate for the missing four home games by having a league cup group won't work because the extra games will be against third and fourth division opposition, so won't be as attractive to us as playing the Yams or Ugly Sisters.

Eighteen would be the way forward - combining the twelve Premiership sides with the top six from the second tier would still leave out the likes of Dunfermline, Morton and Ayr based on last season, so there is plenty of potential strength in depth. The only problem will be that matches for the middle teams from February onwards are going to be increasingly meaningless as they will be too far behind for a European place but safely clear of the three relegation spots.

southern hibby
01-06-2015, 05:25 AM
Surely 50% of Championship teams would vote yes as it would mean instant promotion. Likewise, St. Mirren would definitely vote yes.

J
I agree they would problem is the smaller teams would look at this season and say well only one team went up, so under this understanding only one may go up next season. This means either Hibs or The Rangers will be in our division next again season bringing more fans.
If we give them next seasons parachute payment and nothing more, they would get that on gate receipts and possibly more if one of us doesn't get promoted.
GGTTH

Scouse Hibee
01-06-2015, 07:13 AM
Any kind of league structure that includes the resetting of points after x amount of games to give clubs more of a chance to win the title is an abortion of an idea. It's almost as bad as the structure in some sports where the top two teams (no matter what the points difference betwenn them is) play a final to determine the champions for that season.

Absolute tosh that completely devalues the entire league.

So does the play offs.

MrSmith
01-06-2015, 07:22 AM
So does the play offs.

Couldn't agree more!

Only in Scotland!

jacomo
01-06-2015, 07:33 AM
A 16 team league means fewer home games and a loss of income. Any attempt to compensate for the missing four home games by having a league cup group won't work because the extra games will be against third and fourth division opposition, so won't be as attractive to us as playing the Yams or Ugly Sisters.

Eighteen would be the way forward - combining the twelve Premiership sides with the top six from the second tier would still leave out the likes of Dunfermline, Morton and Ayr based on last season, so there is plenty of potential strength in depth. The only problem will be that matches for the middle teams from February onwards are going to be increasingly meaningless as they will be too far behind for a European place but safely clear of the three relegation spots.

What if League reconstruction is a success and drives up crowds? Many games play to half-empty crowds. What if sponsorship and TV revenue increase?

gegs70
01-06-2015, 07:45 AM
What if League reconstruction is a success and drives up crowds? Many games play to half-empty crowds. What if sponsorship and TV revenue increase?

I think they were also talking about a split whigh would see the bottom 4 play the top 4 of the championship to see who stays up and who goes down....so many formats!!! Can't remember if that format was based on 2 leagues premier 1 and premier 2.....

J-C
01-06-2015, 07:47 AM
At the moment we play 38 games in the premiership, with a 16 team league you'd play the 1st 30 games ( that's 2 against everyone ) then split into 2x8 playing each other once giving you a 37 game season just from the league itself I'd have 2 teams relegated with the no.1 team from championship automatically promoted and like in England teams 2,3,4,5 play off to have a one off match at Hampden for the 2nd promotion spot, the same would happen for the league below and have a weekend play off final like England, that'll give you end of season excitement.

scoopyboy
01-06-2015, 07:51 AM
Couldn't agree more!

Only in Scotland!

They have play offs in England.

Same applies, a third placed team can finish 20 points ahead of a 6th placed team, yet the sixth placed team can go up.

Geo_1875
01-06-2015, 09:07 AM
They have play offs in England.

Same applies, a third placed team can finish 20 points ahead of a 6th placed team, yet the sixth placed team can go up.

Any "league" system which rewards a team that finishes 6th ahead of those in 3rd, 4th and 5th is a joke. Positions are earned over an entire season then turned into it's a knockout. Absolutely ridiculous.

scoopyboy
01-06-2015, 09:36 AM
Any "league" system which rewards a team that finishes 6th ahead of those in 3rd, 4th and 5th is a joke. Positions are earned over an entire season then turned into it's a knockout. Absolutely ridiculous.

Agreed, it's box office but unfair.

number9dream
01-06-2015, 10:07 AM
At the moment we play 38 games in the premiership, with a 16 team league you'd play the 1st 30 games ( that's 2 against everyone ) then split into 2x8 playing each other once giving you a 37 game season just from the league itself I'd have 2 teams relegated with the no.1 team from championship automatically promoted and like in England teams 2,3,4,5 play off to have a one off match at Hampden for the 2nd promotion spot, the same would happen for the league below and have a weekend play off final like England, that'll give you end of season excitement.

Is J-C free to replace Neil Doncaster immediately?

LancsHibs
01-06-2015, 10:22 AM
At the moment we play 38 games in the premiership, with a 16 team league you'd play the 1st 30 games ( that's 2 against everyone ) then split into 2x8 playing each other once giving you a 37 game season just from the league itself I'd have 2 teams relegated with the no.1 team from championship automatically promoted and like in England teams 2,3,4,5 play off to have a one off match at Hampden for the 2nd promotion spot, the same would happen for the league below and have a weekend play off final like England, that'll give you end of season excitement.

:agree:seems too obvious and too sensible to be considered

Posh Swanny
01-06-2015, 11:17 AM
Any "league" system which rewards a team that finishes 6th ahead of those in 3rd, 4th and 5th is a joke. Positions are earned over an entire season then turned into it's a knockout. Absolutely ridiculous.

They are what they are and you won't find many people down south arguing for them to be removed. Now they've been around for 20+ years the whinging from teams coming third/fourth has died down considerably as most will have benefited at one time or another.

Plus when you do make the finals of these things there's the "cup final" occasion - I've seen Posh three times in play off finals and the crowds have been 33k and 35k at Wembley and 48k at Old Trafford (the memories are brighted with the fact that we won all three times!). For a club that does well to pull in 6,000 each week and is not going to make the FA Cup final any time soon, they are an amazing addition the to calendar.

bigwheel
01-06-2015, 11:21 AM
At the moment we play 38 games in the premiership, with a 16 team league you'd play the 1st 30 games ( that's 2 against everyone ) then split into 2x8 playing each other once giving you a 37 game season just from the league itself I'd have 2 teams relegated with the no.1 team from championship automatically promoted and like in England teams 2,3,4,5 play off to have a one off match at Hampden for the 2nd promotion spot, the same would happen for the league below and have a weekend play off final like England, that'll give you end of season excitement.

I like the innovation here, but feel there are some real practical issues - the main one being the home and away impact of the seven games..If you end up away to your main rival for whatever position you are aiming for, and "say" away to Celtic, rather than home - it could influence the outcome which substantially..

Blaster
01-06-2015, 11:23 AM
I like the innovation here, but feel there are some real practical issues - the main one being the home and away impact of the seven games..If you end up away to your main rival for whatever position you are aiming for, and "say" away to Celtic, rather than home - it could influence the outcome which substantially..

It could be preset at the start of the season

Top team plays 2,3,4,5 at home rest away etc.

J-C
01-06-2015, 11:28 AM
I like the innovation here, but feel there are some real practical issues - the main one being the home and away impact of the seven games..If you end up away to your main rival for whatever position you are aiming for, and "say" away to Celtic, rather than home - it could influence the outcome which substantially..


What like we have at the moment with the split into 2x6, making it either 3 home or 3 away games.


My only concern with 37 league games is generally we need an even number of games per season, I just feel too many people are over complicating this and sometimes a simple solution is there for all to see.

Still have the split, play each team in the split once and then one round of random games against another team in the other side of the split to make it 38 games.

Keith_M
01-06-2015, 11:39 AM
It could be preset at the start of the season

Top team plays 2,3,4,5 at home rest away etc.


Are you suggesting the team in top place at the split is awarded more home than away games (15+4 home & 15+3 away)? If so, I think that's a recipe for disaster.

There really is no guaranteed way for any of the split scenarios to ensure a team doesn't get an unfair advantage, e.g. 3 home and one away against another side. The only way to ensure this would be if the League already knew which teams were going to finish in each half of the league beforehand.

I'd much prefer a larger league with a simple one home and one away game against every other team. It works perfectly well for almost every other league in the world.

allezsauzee
01-06-2015, 11:42 AM
I'm just not seeing how adding 4 teams who were previously not good enough to play in the premiership is going to add to the quality of the division.

KeithTheHibby
01-06-2015, 11:45 AM
Any "league" system which rewards a team that finishes 6th ahead of those in 3rd, 4th and 5th is a joke. Positions are earned over an entire season then turned into it's a knockout. Absolutely ridiculous.

You could also argue that a team that has been pish all season and finishes second bottom gets 2 more games to save their season against a team who finished second in the division below. I don't think that is fair.

Blaster
01-06-2015, 12:06 PM
Are you suggesting the team in top place at the split is awarded more home than away games (15+4 home & 15+3 away)? If so, I think that's a recipe for disaster.

There really is no guaranteed way for any of the split scenarios to ensure a team doesn't get an unfair advantage, e.g. 3 home and one away against another side. The only way to ensure this would be if the League already knew which teams were going to finish in each half of the league beforehand.

I'd much prefer a larger league with a simple one home and one away game against every other team. It works perfectly well for almost every other league in the world.

Yes. The reward for finishing in the top 4 would be 4 home and 3 away

Bottom 4 would be reverse.

That's the reward for finishing higher. The same can happen at the moment where a team can lose out on a home game

Based on a top 8 bottom 8 split

Keith_M
01-06-2015, 12:19 PM
OK, I'll post this scenario for proponents of a league where teams in the same half of the split have to play each other three times each.


Imagine in a dim and distant future, The Rangers have finally got their act together and are challenging Celtc for the Title. They've already played one match at Celtc Park and the other at Ibrox.


How do you decide where the third game is played and what do you imagine the consequences will be of that decision?


:devil:

Nutmegged
01-06-2015, 12:21 PM
16 team league only offers 15 Home games so whats the solution?

16 Prem clubs enter into a Champions League style League Cup with 16 lower division teams (after early season knock out round) and those 8 groups of 4 playing each other home anf away, those three Home games that every Premiership club is gauranteed can be added to the Season ticket so clubs are still selling 18 gauranteed Home fixtures - the Cup attendances would also get a major boost as more people would be likely to go if they'd already paid for their ticket and that in turn could entice broadcasters/sponsors as well as selling more merchandise and catering etc...


Any change will definitely not happen until next Summer at the earliest

Nutmegged
01-06-2015, 12:26 PM
OK, I'll post this scenario for proponents of a league where teams in the same half of the split have to play each other three times each.


Imagine in a dim and distant future, The Rangers have finally got their act together and are challenging Celtc for the Title. They've already played one match at Celtc Park and the other at Ibrox.


How do you decide where the third game is played and what do you imagine the consequences will be of that decision?


:devil:

I really don't like that league format but if that were to take place then for me the fairest way would be for the team who finished 1st to have their four home games against teams 2,3,4 & 5 with their Away games against 6,7 & 8

Team who finishes second would face team 3,4,5 & 6 at home and teams 1,7,8 away


and so on and so on, it would at least give those who finished top after the regular season some kind of positive consequence for doing so

Blaster
01-06-2015, 12:26 PM
OK, I'll post this scenario for proponents of a league where teams in the same half of the split have to play each other three times each.


Imagine in a dim and distant future, The Rangers have finally got their act together and are challenging Celtc for the Title. They've already played one match at Celtc Park and the other at Ibrox.


How do you decide where the third game is played and what do you imagine the consequences will be of that decision?


:devil:

I wouldn't decide 😜 but whoever finishes higher would get the advantage.

There is no ideal solution to any proposal. Just trying to fit a 16 team league into some sort of solution which gives a similar amount of home games at present

This solution guarantees 18 home games with a possibility of 19

Keith_M
01-06-2015, 12:26 PM
16 team league only offers 15 Home games so whats the solution?

16 Prem clubs enter into a Champions League style League Cup with 16 lower division teams (after early season knock out round) and those 8 groups of 4 playing each other home anf away, those three Home games that every Premiership club is gauranteed can be added to the Season ticket so clubs are still selling 18 gauranteed Home fixtures - the Cup attendances would also get a major boost as more people would be likely to go if they'd already paid for their ticket and that in turn could entice broadcasters/sponsors as well as selling more merchandise and catering etc...

....


That's pretty much how the League Cup used to be.

On the downside, the attendances at a lot of the group games were really poor. Though I suppose that's the same for the current format as well.

Geo_1875
01-06-2015, 12:29 PM
You could also argue that a team that has been pish all season and finishes second bottom gets 2 more games to save their season against a team who finished second in the division below. I don't think that is fair.

That could be argued but we were talking about the English play-off system which is different. I agree though that play-offs in a so-called league system are unfair.

Mr White
01-06-2015, 12:47 PM
14 team league play each other twice then a top 6 bottom 8 split. 36 league games fir top 6, 40 for bottom 8. Equal number of home and away games. Not saying it would be perfect but it's one of the few options that doesn't give the possibility of playing 1 team 3 times away in one season and only 1 at home.

rabcp1
01-06-2015, 01:07 PM
I would like to see a 16 team league influenced by the Belgian model splitting into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. The top 4 teams battle it out for the title. The teams 5th-8th play to qualify for a European playoff place where the teams in 4th and 5th place will meet in a 2 legged playoff with the winner taking the last Europa League spot (depending on the Scottish Cup winner). The teams 9th-12th play to avoid coming 12th and playing in the relegtaion play off semi final while the teams 13th-16th battle to avoid the drop and play off. The teams in 12th & 14th then meet in a 2 legged playoff with the loser entering the relegation playoff final.

This system would give us 36 games a season with an even number of home and away games along with ensuing that every side has something to play for throughout the season.

Team 1 – CL Qualification/Qualifiers
Team 2 – EL Qualification/CL Qualifiers
Team 3 – EL Qualifiers
Team 4 – European Play-Off’s
————————————
Team 5 – European Play-Off’s
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8
————————————
Team 9
Team 10
Team 11
Team 12 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
————————————
Team 13
Team 14 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
Team 15 – Automatic Relegation
Team 16 – Automatic Relegation

Phil MaGlass
01-06-2015, 01:14 PM
I would like to see a 16 team league influenced by the Belgian model splitting into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. The top 4 teams battle it out for the title. The teams 5th-8th play to qualify for a European playoff place where the teams in 4th and 5th place will meet in a 2 legged playoff with the winner taking the last Europa League spot (depending on the Scottish Cup winner). The teams 9th-12th play to avoid coming 12th and playing in the relegtaion play off semi final while the teams 13th-16th battle to avoid the drop and play off. The teams in 12th & 14th then meet in a 2 legged playoff with the loser entering the relegation playoff final.

This system would give us 36 games a season with an even number of home and away games along with ensuing that every side has something to play for throughout the season.

Team 1 – CL Qualification/Qualifiers
Team 2 – EL Qualification/CL Qualifiers
Team 3 – EL Qualifiers
Team 4 – European Play-Off’s
————————————
Team 5 – European Play-Off’s
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8
————————————
Team 9
Team 10
Team 11
Team 12 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
————————————
Team 13
Team 14 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
Team 15 – Automatic Relegation
Team 16 – Automatic Relegation

I like it bhut teams 9-12 wouldnt really be playing for anything.

rabcp1
01-06-2015, 01:19 PM
I like it bhut teams 9-12 wouldnt really be playing for anything.
They'd be playing to avoid finishing 12th and being dragged into the relegation playoffs

Geo_1875
01-06-2015, 02:13 PM
They'd be playing to avoid finishing 12th and being dragged into the relegation playoffs

Why can 12th be relegated but 13th can't. That's the biggest load of pish on an already pish soaked thread.

A league is a competition played over a set number of games with teams position decided by points gained from winning or drawing matches. Splits and play-offs are manipulations to make games "meaningful and exciting". If they hadn't changed the rules to keep already rich clubs happy they wouldn't have to **** about with our league now.

Joe6-2
01-06-2015, 02:21 PM
Agreed, it's box office but unfair.

It's an absolute joke! How anyone sat round a table and agreed this was a good idea, I will never, ever know!

Diclonius
01-06-2015, 02:29 PM
Look, we all know what the media want so let's just give them it.

Scottish Premiership: 2 teams
Teams play each other 38 times a season. The winner qualifies for the Champions League and the bottom team qualifies for the Europa League. No relegation.
Rangers have been "invited" to play in this league along with last year's champions.

Scottish Championship: 18 teams
Teams play each other twice a season. The winner recieves the Scottish Championship trophy and a place in the Europa League. 2 teams automatically relegated, the 16th placed team plays a two-legged relegation playoff with the winner of the promotion semi-final from the Scottish Football League.

Scottish Football League North and South: 20 teams per division
Leagues are regionalised from here on. Teams play each other twice a season, the winners are automatically promoted to the Scottish Championship. The two second placed teams play each other in a two-legged playoff, the winner plays the 16th placed team in the Championship. Two teams are automatically relegated, the 18th placed team plays the 3rd placed team from the division below. Pyramid structure continues right down.

Bristolhibby
01-06-2015, 02:45 PM
I like the innovation here, but feel there are some real practical issues - the main one being the home and away impact of the seven games..If you end up away to your main rival for whatever position you are aiming for, and "say" away to Celtic, rather than home - it could influence the outcome which substantially..

Here we go.

Home v Away drawn at random by a computer. None of this balancing out etc. Pure chance. You could get 7 away games for 3 seasons, then 5 seasons of home games. Luck of the draw. And the draw could be a relegation decider Derby, then again, so be it.

J

Bristolhibby
01-06-2015, 02:49 PM
Simples.

2 x leagues of 20.

Play each other twice. 38 games.

Done.

J

Nutmegged
01-06-2015, 02:55 PM
I would like to see a 16 team league influenced by the Belgian model splitting into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. The top 4 teams battle it out for the title. The teams 5th-8th play to qualify for a European playoff place where the teams in 4th and 5th place will meet in a 2 legged playoff with the winner taking the last Europa League spot (depending on the Scottish Cup winner). The teams 9th-12th play to avoid coming 12th and playing in the relegtaion play off semi final while the teams 13th-16th battle to avoid the drop and play off. The teams in 12th & 14th then meet in a 2 legged playoff with the loser entering the relegation playoff final.

This system would give us 36 games a season with an even number of home and away games along with ensuing that every side has something to play for throughout the season.

Team 1 – CL Qualification/Qualifiers
Team 2 – EL Qualification/CL Qualifiers
Team 3 – EL Qualifiers
Team 4 – European Play-Off’s
————————————
Team 5 – European Play-Off’s
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8
————————————
Team 9
Team 10
Team 11
Team 12 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
————————————
Team 13
Team 14 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
Team 15 – Automatic Relegation
Team 16 – Automatic Relegation

Did you copy and paste this from me? Haha

Geo_1875
01-06-2015, 02:58 PM
Look, we all know what the media want so let's just give them it.

Scottish Premiership: 2 teams
Teams play each other 38 times a season. The winner qualifies for the Champions League and the bottom team qualifies for the Europa League. No relegation.
Rangers have been "invited" to play in this league along with last year's champions.

Scottish Championship: 18 teams
Teams play each other twice a season. The winner recieves the Scottish Championship trophy and a place in the Europa League. 2 teams automatically relegated, the 16th placed team plays a two-legged relegation playoff with the winner of the promotion semi-final from the Scottish Football League.

Scottish Football League North and South: 20 teams per division
Leagues are regionalised from here on. Teams play each other twice a season, the winners are automatically promoted to the Scottish Championship. The two second placed teams play each other in a two-legged playoff, the winner plays the 16th placed team in the Championship. Two teams are automatically relegated, the 18th placed team plays the 3rd placed team from the division below. Pyramid structure continues right down.

A brilliant suggestion, BUT.....

What happens if both or even all three teams relegated from the Championship are from the far North or South of Scotland? How do you decide which regional league they will play in?

Nutmegged
01-06-2015, 02:58 PM
That's pretty much how the League Cup used to be.

On the downside, the attendances at a lot of the group games were really poor. Though I suppose that's the same for the current format as well.

Yeah i know thats how the League Cup used to be, you'd hope that with more free weekends we could use those to play some tjes and as they'd be on the Season Ticket it might encourage morw fans to go to those games given that they'd have already paid for them

jacomo
01-06-2015, 03:02 PM
Look, we all know what the media want so let's just give them it.

Scottish Premiership: 2 teams
Teams play each other 38 times a season. The winner qualifies for the Champions League and the bottom team qualifies for the Europa League. No relegation.
Rangers have been "invited" to play in this league along with last year's champions.

Scottish Championship: 18 teams
Teams play each other twice a season. The winner recieves the Scottish Championship trophy and a place in the Europa League. 2 teams automatically relegated, the 16th placed team plays a two-legged relegation playoff with the winner of the promotion semi-final from the Scottish Football League.

Scottish Football League North and South: 20 teams per division
Leagues are regionalised from here on. Teams play each other twice a season, the winners are automatically promoted to the Scottish Championship. The two second placed teams play each other in a two-legged playoff, the winner plays the 16th placed team in the Championship. Two teams are automatically relegated, the 18th placed team plays the 3rd placed team from the division below. Pyramid structure continues right down.

This is fine but I think qualification for Europe is wasted on the Premiership - surely it just gets in the way?

Instead they could play each other mid week, but in more exotic locations like Dublin or Belfast?

lord bunberry
01-06-2015, 07:38 PM
Simples.

2 x leagues of 20.

Play each other twice. 38 games.

Done.

J
That's what I'd go for, nice and simple with no stupid splits. 3 relegation places.

dangermouse
01-06-2015, 08:06 PM
A brilliant suggestion, BUT.....

What happens if both or even all three teams relegated from the Championship are from the far North or South of Scotland? How do you decide which regional league they will play in?

You reorganise the North and South divisions. Which division you play in is not set in stone.

killie-hibby
01-06-2015, 09:36 PM
Simples.

2 x leagues of 20.

Play each other twice. 38 games.

Done.


J

Yes,get rid of splits and boredom of playing against same team
3 or 4 times.Unfortunately wont happen as SPFL have more regard for people who would rather sit on their big fat backsides and watch televised games than for fans/supporters who actually attend games.

Eyrie
01-06-2015, 09:39 PM
Simples.

2 x leagues of 20.

Play each other twice. 38 games.

Done.

J
Easily done. Based on last season the two leagues would be

Top league- Aberdeen, Alloa Athletic, Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton, Dundee, Dundee United, Falkirk, Hamilton Academical, Heart Of Midlothian, Hibernian, Inverness CT, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Motherwell, Partick Thistle, Queen Of The South, Raith Rovers, Ross County, St Johnstone, St Mirren.

Lower league - Airdrieonians, Albion Rovers, Annan Athletic, Arbroath, Ayr United, Berwick Rangers, Brechin City, Clyde, Dunfermline, East Fife, East Stirlingshire, Elgin City, Forfar Athletic, Montrose, Morton, Peterhead, Queens Park, Stenhousemuir, Stirling Albion, Stranraer.

MyJo
01-06-2015, 09:56 PM
I would like to see a 16 team league influenced by the Belgian model splitting into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. The top 4 teams battle it out for the title. The teams 5th-8th play to qualify for a European playoff place where the teams in 4th and 5th place will meet in a 2 legged playoff with the winner taking the last Europa League spot (depending on the Scottish Cup winner). The teams 9th-12th play to avoid coming 12th and playing in the relegtaion play off semi final while the teams 13th-16th battle to avoid the drop and play off. The teams in 12th & 14th then meet in a 2 legged playoff with the loser entering the relegation playoff final.

This system would give us 36 games a season with an even number of home and away games along with ensuing that every side has something to play for throughout the season.

Team 1 – CL Qualification/Qualifiers
Team 2 – EL Qualification/CL Qualifiers
Team 3 – EL Qualifiers
Team 4 – European Play-Off’s
————————————
Team 5 – European Play-Off’s
Team 6
Team 7
Team 8
————————————
Team 9
Team 10
Team 11
Team 12 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
————————————
Team 13
Team 14 – Relegation Play off Semi Final
Team 15 – Automatic Relegation
Team 16 – Automatic Relegation

Certainly a far more sensible option than anything that the SFA and SPFL will likely come up with but my preferred option is still this:

Premiership - 16 teams 30 game season, 2 relegation places
Championship - 16 teams 30 game season, 1 automatic promotion & 2nd to 5th playoff for promotion. 2 relegation places.
League 1 - 10 teams 36 game season, 1 automatic promotion, 2nd & 3rd playoff for promotion. 1 relegated to regional leagues.

League cup organised into 8 mini leagues of 4 teams containing 1 team from top 8 premiership, 1 team from bottom 8 of premiership, 1 team from top 8 in championship and 1 team from bottom 8 of championship in each drawn at random. teams play each other twice within the league giving each of the top 32 teams another guaranteed 6 games per season. top two from each group qualify for knockout stages of tournament, third place finishers join the challenge cup and bottom place is out completely.

Eyrie
01-06-2015, 10:01 PM
Why do people persist in calling the Scottish second tier the "championship"? Unlike in England, where this refers to the top division in the Football League (which is separate to the English Premiership), the four divisions in Scotland are all part of the one body so the only champion is the team that wins the top division.

Peevemor
01-06-2015, 10:03 PM
Because that's what it's called? :dunno:

J-C
01-06-2015, 10:04 PM
Why do people persist in calling the Scottish second tier the "championship"? Unlike in England, where this refers to the top division in the Football League (which is separate to the English Premiership), the four divisions in Scotland are all part of the one body so the only champion is the team that wins the top division.


Probably because the 2nd tier of Scottish football is called the SPFL championship, it's that simple.

MyJo
01-06-2015, 10:07 PM
Why do people persist in calling the Scottish second tier the "championship"? Unlike in England, where this refers to the top division in the Football League (which is separate to the English Premiership), the four divisions in Scotland are all part of the one body so the only champion is the team that wins the top division.

http://spfl.co.uk/championship/

:Ummm:

Hibbyradge
01-06-2015, 10:08 PM
Why do people persist in calling the Scottish second tier the "championship"? Unlike in England, where this refers to the top division in the Football League (which is separate to the English Premiership), the four divisions in Scotland are all part of the one body so the only champion is the team that wins the top division.

:tee hee:

stevenhibs
02-06-2015, 06:09 AM
If they must insist on this split, even a 14 team top league would be better. How is it fair for one team to have to go to Celtic twice but only get them once at home when another team gets 2 cracks at them on their own patch. Potentially relegates teams.

Each team plays twice, home and away. Split at 26 games.

They then split into 2 groups of 7, playing home and away again. This is a further 12 games keeping the season at 38 games.

Bristolhibby
02-06-2015, 07:01 AM
Easily done. Based on last season the two leagues would be

Top league- Aberdeen, Alloa Athletic, Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton, Dundee, Dundee United, Falkirk, Hamilton Academical, Heart Of Midlothian, Hibernian, Inverness CT, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Motherwell, Partick Thistle, Queen Of The South, Raith Rovers, Ross County, St Johnstone, St Mirren.

Lower league - Airdrieonians, Albion Rovers, Annan Athletic, Arbroath, Ayr United, Berwick Rangers, Brechin City, Clyde, Dunfermline, East Fife, East Stirlingshire, Elgin City, Forfar Athletic, Montrose, Morton, Peterhead, Queens Park, Stenhousemuir, Stirling Albion, Stranraer.

Seeing that written out I love it even more. Some great away trips. Play the tramps twice and the OF at ER only twice a season.

Also other teams could mount a serious challenge to Celtic.

So obvious, and that I'm afraid is why it will never be chosen.

J

Mr White
02-06-2015, 07:09 AM
Seeing that written out I love it even more. Some great away trips. Play the tramps twice and the OF at ER only twice a season.

Also other teams could mount a serious challenge to Celtic.

So obvious, and that I'm afraid is why it will never be chosen.

J
:tee hee: there's a couple of glaring omissions from that list. Aren't there 42 senior clubs in scotland? Aberdeen would be starting as favourites :greengrin

Bristolhibby
02-06-2015, 07:49 AM
:tee hee: there's a couple of glaring omissions from that list. Aren't there 42 senior clubs in scotland? Aberdeen would be starting as favourites :greengrin

The debate about whether a country the size of Scotland should actually have 42 senior clubs is another debate.

Especially recently as it was hinted that some premier teams were looking at going part time.

Two relegation places, no promotion for next season.

J

Eyrie
02-06-2015, 06:50 PM
Because that's what it's called? :dunno:


Probably because the 2nd tier of Scottish football is called the SPFL championship, it's that simple.


http://spfl.co.uk/championship/

:Ummm:
Multiple whooshes.

Just because it's been given the name "championship" doesn't make it a championship of anything. It's the second tier. Winning it next season won't make us champions of anything.


:tee hee:
Someone got it.

Eyrie
02-06-2015, 06:52 PM
:tee hee: there's a couple of glaring omissions from that list. Aren't there 42 senior clubs in scotland? Aberdeen would be starting as favourites :greengrin

I only included the clubs that want to be Scottish :greengrin

Mr White
02-06-2015, 07:09 PM
I only included the clubs that want to be Scottish :greengrin

:greengrin

Danderhall Hibs
02-06-2015, 07:41 PM
So anyway have they sorted us out for next season yet?

weonlywon6-2
02-06-2015, 07:50 PM
So anyway have they sorted us out for next season yet?

All depends how rangers get on in the first few games 😀😀😀