So, Europe. In or out?

[Hibbyradge]

Leaving aside any "concessions" which Cameron may or may not get from his negotiations, what are your thoughts on the UK's membership of the EU?

I won't bother offering a poll as it's too early, but a discussion on the merits of staying/going might be interesting.

For my part, up till now I've supported staying in, but I'm not sure that's just because of party politics and my dislike of Farage.

I'd like to examine the real issues now.

[steakbake]

In, without hesitation or any concessions. A large amount of the hysteria about Europe is generally whipped up by an anti-EU press and to be frank, a fairly large number of people who listen to the likes of Farage and others who deliberately obfuscate and confuse various issues. For example, I think anyone who is going to vote in the EUreferendum on the basis of how they feel about the European Convention of Human Rights and the court in Strasbourg should be stripped of the right to vote - so that they have to take it up within the ECHR and hopefully, that way, learn that it has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.

Similarly, classifications of the straightness of cucumbers/squareness of strawberries: standardisation of quality control throughout the EU, ease, efficiency and sustainability of packaging and transportation, value and quality control for consumers... though the headline often sounds a lot more crazy than the purpose.

There are aspects of accountability that have to be addressed, but I think that's the same in any political system. However, as a multinational bloc of free movement, international co-operation and standards of quality and safety then it is unparalleled in its success.

I don't mind closer integration, I have no problem at all with EU immigration and in fact, welcome the many hundreds of thousands of people who have come to make the UK their home in recent years. It is laughable to think that they are genuinely preventing downtrodden indigenous people as the right wing would paint them, from taking up the kind of jobs that most of us wouldn't get out of bed for, or have the wit and style to set up the businesses. The people who I have met are, in the main, far more entrepreneurial, willing, hard-working and dedicated than I daresay I am or many other people I know.

I am delighted that 2.5mil of other people in these islands have come from other parts of Europe. I am happy that around the same number of people from here have also found their home in other parts of the continent and are free to continue to do so: I have myself, at various times.

So, for me, I'd stay in.

[Haymaker]

In.

[Geo_1875]

In, without hesitation or any concessions. A large amount of the hysteria about Europe is generally whipped up by an anti-EU press and to be frank, a fairly large number of people who have not got a clue about how it all works and so listen to the likes of Farage and others who deliberately obfuscate various issues. For example, I think anyone who is going to vote in the EUreferendum on the basis of how they feel about the European Convention of Human Rights and the court in Strasbourg should be stripped of the right to vote - so that they have to take it up within the ECHR and hopefully, that way, learn that it has absolutely nothing to do with the European Union.

There are aspects of accountability that have to be addressed, but I think that's the same in any political system. However, as a multinational bloc of free movement, international co-operation and standards of quality and safety then it is unparalleled in its success. I don't mind closer integration, I have no problem at all with EU immigration and in fact, welcome the many hundreds of thousands of people who have come to make the UK their home in recent years. It is laughable to think that they are genuinely preventing downtrodden indigenous people as the right wing would paint them, from taking up the kind of jobs that most of us wouldn't get out of bed for. I am delighted that 2.5mil of other people in these islands have come from other parts of Europe. I am happy that around the same number of people from here have also found their home in other parts of the continent and are free to continue to do so: I have myself, at various times.

So, for me, I'd stay in.

That's a bit of an extremist viewpoint for such a warm, cuddly pro-European. Surely anyone who meets the criteria should be allowed to vote as they see fit?

I'll vote to stay in as well.

[steakbake]

That's a bit of an extremist viewpoint for such a warm, cuddly pro-European. Surely anyone who meets the criteria should be allowed to vote as they see fit?

I'll vote to stay in as well.

I'm exaggerating... but it might teach people that ECHR is not an EU thing. It was in fact, largely drawn up by British legal experts at the end of WW2.

[Hibrandenburg]

In, but again I won't have a say.

[RyeSloan]

Oh where to start on this!?

I think the premise of a common market and free movement of labour is a good one. Lower barriers to trade and the economic migration of labour raises living standards, I think that's pretty much a given.

However supporting an organisation that has something as daft and massively expensive as the CAP is hard to do. Add in the complete lack of accountability (and associated huge waste and graft) and you start to see some of the arguments for leaving.

I'm minded to think the UK could relatively easily replicate the advantages of being in the EU through stand alone trade deals without the cost of staying in but there appears to be no definitive evidence to support that either way.

So in summary...undecided (very).

[johnbc70]

In, but the structure and aims of the EU need to be reviewed.

[(((Fergus)))]

Out.

[easty]

In

[lucky]

Leaning towards out. Too many laws favour business over workers.

[#FromTheCapital]

Starting off in the 'in' camp, but will consider both arguments when the campaign goes full swing.

[liamh2202]

I really need to look into it more but in the out camp at the minute due to their interference to me as a motorbike rider and car driver.

[SHODAN]

If we leave the EU (and Scotland fails to secure independence within the EU), I'm leaving the country.

Clear enough? :aok:

[Glory Lurker]

In, but not unreservedly. The democratic deficit, waste and non-uniform adherence to rules across the Union (at least that's popular perception) all bother me.

[RyeSloan]

If we leave the EU (and Scotland fails to secure independence within the EU), I'm leaving the country. Clear enough? :aok:

Should that encourage me to vote No or Yes? ;-)

[liamh2202]

If we leave will hearts still be able to win the champions league??

[Pretty Boy]

In as it stands.

But I started off a strong No in the Indy debate and was converted so when the debate starts I am open to being convinced of the merits of leaving the EU.

[Sir David Gray]

100% out.

The idea that British politicians can be told what they can or can't do in this country, due to legislation that's being passed in Brussels and Strasbourg does not sit right with me at all.

By all means, have a free trade agreement with other European nations, I don't have any issue with that at all and I can see the benefits to that.

However, laws which affect the UK should be made by UK politicians and UK politicians alone, people who are wholly accountable to the UK electorate.

And that's before I even begin on the situation regarding the free movement of people.

The entire structure of the European Union needs completely overhauled before I would even consider voting in favour of the UK remaining in the EU.

[The_Todd]

In. Full stop. With or without any "changes to our relationship". The freedom of movement of goods, people and services is a wonderful thing. The idea that human beings should be limited to arbitrary lines drawn on maps is illogical and unnatural. I find it odd that people who hark back to the "good old days" before open migration probably don't realise that before 1905 there was no such thing as immigration control in this country, none at all.

And for economic reasons, why lock ourselves out of such a massive trading block just to reenforce Britishness? It's just narrow nationalism, really. And yes, we could still trade with the EU but not as easily and we'd lose our influence on the rules, which we already waste anyway by voting the likes of uninterested dolts like Ukip to represent us.

[lord bunberry]

I'm probably in at the moment, but I don't think the EU works very well tbh. I like the idea of free movement and trade deals, but that's were it should stop for me. The euro has been a disaster as it can't work properly without closer political union.

[easty]

In. Full stop. With or without any "changes to our relationship". The freedom of movement of goods, people and services is a wonderful thing. The idea that human beings should be limited to arbitrary lines drawn on maps is illogical and unnatural. I find it odd that people who hark back to the "good old days" before open migration probably don't realise that before 1905 there was no such thing as immigration control in this country, none at all.

And for economic reasons, why lock ourselves out of such a massive trading block just to reenforce Britishness? It's just narrow nationalism, really. And yes, we could still trade with the EU but not as easily and we'd lose our influence on the rules, which we already waste anyway by voting the likes of uninterested dolts like Ukip to represent us.

:agree: especially the bit in bold

[Bristolhibby]

In for me.

Free movement of labour and capital is essential.

The UK has more to lose than Europe has to lose.

Import tax, export taxes, increases transaction costs.
Limiting the ability for our own expats to move across Europe.

Reducing foreign (non EU investment) as we are no longer an English speaking gateway for the massive EU market.

Fully committed to the Himan Rights Act. The fact that our government wants to "opt out" frightens me. Thank **** it's not so simple in Scotland and Northern Ireland as these are devolved issues.

J

[BroxburnHibee]

I'd like to hear both arguments before deciding.

Right now the EU seems a bit of a gravy train for me.

Trade deals are good as countries that trade don't tend to go to war with each other but I'm not convinced for the need for the union.

[The Harp Awakes]

100% in.

200% in if Scotland was an independent country.

[lyonhibs]

In. Full stop. With or without any "changes to our relationship". The freedom of movement of goods, people and services is a wonderful thing. The idea that human beings should be limited to arbitrary lines drawn on maps is illogical and unnatural. I find it odd that people who hark back to the "good old days" before open migration probably don't realise that before 1905 there was no such thing as immigration control in this country, none at all.

And for economic reasons, why lock ourselves out of such a massive trading block just to reenforce Britishness? It's just narrow nationalism, really. And yes, we could still trade with the EU but not as easily and we'd lose our influence on the rules, which we already waste anyway by voting the likes of uninterested dolts like Ukip to represent us.

You saved me writing all that.

In, 110%. Anyone saying otherwise wants their heid examined ASAP IMO

[s.a.m]

Leaning towards out. Too many laws favour business over workers.

As opposed to British laws which don't? :dunno:
My impression has been that one of the reasons that the EU No camp want out is that pesky European sorts interfere with the rights of British employers to put their own interests over those of their staff.

[Bristolhibby]

Also guys, no EU members have ever gone to War with another member.

Just hold that thought and remember the hundreds of years of wars that have ripped through Europe in the past.

J

[RyeSloan]

Also guys, no EU members have ever gone to War with another member. Just hold that thought and remember the hundreds of years of wars that have ripped through Europe in the past. J

I'm sure there is a long list of counties that the UK has not went to war with that are not members of the EU.

Also the EU was not formed until 1993..saying the EU has stopped European wars is stretching things a touch I would suggest and would seem a bit of an abstract argument to suggest that we should stay in...leaving the EU will not heighten the risk of the UK invading Italy or France or any other country that remains in the EU any time soon!

I'm curious to see the reasons for those that are 200% or 110% or whatever value over 100% convinced that we should remain in the EU, I've already stated I can see arguments on both sides but these absolute dead cert 'in' statements I find interesting and the reasons behind them.

[Just Alf]

As opposed to British laws which don't? :dunno:
My impression has been that one of the reasons that the EU No camp want out is that pesky European sorts interfere with the rights of British employers to put their own interests over those of their staff.

Bang on....


And to answer the OP, 100% in.... I like having a job :agree:

[PeeJay]

I'm sure there is a long list of counties that the UK has not went to war with that are not members of the EU.

Also the EU was not formed until 1993..saying the EU has stopped European wars is stretching things a touch I would suggest and would seem a bit of an abstract argument to suggest that we should stay in...leaving the EU will not heighten the risk of the UK invading Italy or France or any other country that remains in the EU any time soon!

I'm curious to see the reasons for those that are 200% or 110% or whatever value over 100% convinced that we should remain in the EU, I've already stated I can see arguments on both sides but these absolute dead cert 'in' statements I find interesting and the reasons behind them.

No, you're wrong there - it may have started out as the "European Coal and Steel Community" but it has evolved, and it quite clearly did not start in 1993. As General "Non!" De-Gaulle constantly reminded Britain back in the 60s, it has never ever been solely about trading. It was set up with "the intention of ending the frequent and bloody wars between the European neighbours". http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

France did not want Britain to join as it claimed Britain will simply not acknowledge this fact and only wants to use the EC/EEC/EU as a trading shop: nothing has changed, it seems when I listen to UK politicians. I fail to see how you can claim it to be an 'abstract argument', particularly when the two nations of France and Germany would cite this very reason as the main success of the EU. It wasn't about the UK invading anyone, other warmongering nations were of greater concern!

Here in Europe (sic) many people wish the UK would embrace the concept of the EU and start working to improve it, instead of UK politicians constantly trying to undermine everything the EU is striving to achieve, and ultimately weakening the EU. Seems the UK wants to enjoy the benefits of the EU, but it doesn't want to put in the effort to make it better, and it certainly needs improving: no system is perfect. The UK often cites a wish to be governed by "elected" representatives, yet it has a House of Lords without elected representatives as its second house? So what principle is at issue here I wonder? Its constant demands for opt-outs, its incessant moaning and calls for a greater rebate, coupled with repatriation of powers seem to me to be nothing but a wasted opportunity and ultimately a disastrous UK policy as the UK will be even less of a force on the world stage outwith the EU. Constantly acting the spoilt brat at the EU negotiating table does not help the UK push through any policies it wishes to have supported, nor does it further what is ultimately a noble cause. Peace and prosperity in Europe, on this scale, is here, and it is so because many countries in Europe have worked hard at realising it through greater integration through freedom of people, goods, services and so on. A successful EU really needs a UK on board, pulling its weight and working with its European neighbours not against them. It's not a trading shop: get over it, join up with the cause and help get the thing sorted.

That's an "In" from me then - although I am not allowed to vote, so I am hoping our Angie beats the **** out Cameron when he comes to "us"....

[Just Alf]

No, you're wrong there - it may have started out as the "European Coal and Steel Community" but it has evolved, and it quite clearly did not start in 1993. As General "Non!" De-Gaulle constantly reminded Britain back in the 60s, it has never ever been solely about trading. It was set up with "the intention of ending the frequent and bloody wars between the European neighbours". http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

France did not want Britain to join as it claimed Britain will simply not acknowledge this fact and only wants to use the EC/EEC/EU as a trading shop: nothing has changed, it seems when I listen to UK politicians. I fail to see how you can claim it to be an 'abstract argument', particularly when the two nations of France and Germany would cite this very reason as the main success of the EU. It wasn't about the UK invading anyone, other warmongering nations were of greater concern!

Here in Europe (sic) many people wish the UK would embrace the concept of the EU and start working to improve it, instead of UK politicians constantly trying to undermine everything the EU is striving to achieve, and ultimately weakening the EU. Seems the UK wants to enjoy the benefits of the EU, but it doesn't want to put in the effort to make it better, and it certainly needs improving: no system is perfect. The UK often cites a wish to be governed by "elected" representatives, yet it has a House of Lords without elected representatives as its second house? So what principle is at issue here I wonder? Its constant demands for opt-outs, its incessant moaning and calls for a greater rebate, coupled with repatriation of powers seem to me to be nothing but a wasted opportunity and ultimately a disastrous UK policy as the UK will be even less of a force on the world stage outwith the EU. Constantly acting the spoilt brat at the EU negotiating table does not help the UK push through any policies it wishes to have supported, nor does it further what is ultimately a noble cause. Peace and prosperity in Europe, on this scale, is here, and it is so because many countries in Europe have worked hard at realising it through greater integration through freedom of people, goods, services and so on. A successful EU really needs a UK on board, pulling its weight and working with its European neighbours not against them. It's not a trading shop: get over it, join up with the cause and help get the thing sorted.

That's an "In" from me then - although I am not allowed to vote, so I am hoping our Angie beats the **** out Cameron when he comes to "us"....

I sooooo hate the font you use, unless I have my glasses with me I need to jump over your posts, luckily this time though, I have them, and that my friend is a brilliant post.

:top marks


Ps change yer blooming font for those of us optically challenged! :greengrin

[PeeJay]

I sooooo hate the font you use, unless I have my glasses with me I need to jump over your posts, luckily this time though, I have them, and that my friend is a brilliant post.

:top marks


Ps change yer blooming font for those of us optically challenged! :greengrin

"Brilliant" means I simply have to ask you: what font would you like then ....:greengrin

[Just Alf]

"Brilliant" means I simply have to ask you: what font would you like then ....:greengrin

Arial is good at about 20! Lol :-)

Ps what font is it you're using? .... "Blurry bu&&er" or summat? :greengrin

[PeeJay]

Arial is good at about 20! Lol :-)

Ps what font is it you're using? .... "Blurry bu&&er" or summat? :greengrin

It's called Century Gothic apparently ....

[Just Alf]

It's called Century Gothic apparently ....

Ah.. The olden days...... Probably no one noticed coz the the ones that didn't were poked with a sword!


I WAS however able to read yer last post tho! :greengrin

[Stranraer]

100% in. And for once I won't be changing my mind on this. Why on earth would be want to isolate ourselves?

[RyeSloan]

No, you're wrong there - it may have started out as the "European Coal and Steel Community" but it has evolved, and it quite clearly did not start in 1993. As General "Non!" De-Gaulle constantly reminded Britain back in the 60s, it has never ever been solely about trading. It was set up with "the intention of ending the frequent and bloody wars between the European neighbours". http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm France did not want Britain to join as it claimed Britain will simply not acknowledge this fact and only wants to use the EC/EEC/EU as a trading shop: nothing has changed, it seems when I listen to UK politicians. I fail to see how you can claim it to be an 'abstract argument', particularly when the two nations of France and Germany would cite this very reason as the main success of the EU. It wasn't about the UK invading anyone, other warmongering nations were of greater concern! Here in Europe (sic) many people wish the UK would embrace the concept of the EU and start working to improve it, instead of UK politicians constantly trying to undermine everything the EU is striving to achieve, and ultimately weakening the EU. Seems the UK wants to enjoy the benefits of the EU, but it doesn't want to put in the effort to make it better, and it certainly needs improving: no system is perfect. The UK often cites a wish to be governed by "elected" representatives, yet it has a House of Lords without elected representatives as its second house? So what principle is at issue here I wonder? Its constant demands for opt-outs, its incessant moaning and calls for a greater rebate, coupled with repatriation of powers seem to me to be nothing but a wasted opportunity and ultimately a disastrous UK policy as the UK will be even less of a force on the world stage outwith the EU. Constantly acting the spoilt brat at the EU negotiating table does not help the UK push through any policies it wishes to have supported, nor does it further what is ultimately a noble cause. Peace and prosperity in Europe, on this scale, is here, and it is so because many countries in Europe have worked hard at realising it through greater integration through freedom of people, goods, services and so on. A successful EU really needs a UK on board, pulling its weight and working with its European neighbours not against them. It's not a trading shop: get over it, join up with the cause and help get the thing sorted. That's an "In" from me then - although I am not allowed to vote, so I am hoping our Angie beats the **** out Cameron when he comes to "us"....

I can assure you the EU was created in 1993..that's quite a simple fact....the key underlying principles of freedom of movement of people, money, good and services were effectively put in place by the Maastricht treaty.

[HappyAsHellas]

To be in the EU each member state must have a certain sound financial footing, that is to say that you cannot join unless your debt is of no more than 60 % of GDP. Countries breaking this rule at present include:

France (90%)
Germany (Depending on whose figures you take)
Ireland (100+%)
Italy (120%)
Portugal (120%)
Spain (80+%)
United Kingdom (90%)
Greece - off the scale

This comes as no surprise as essentially the banks and financial institutions who run the economies along with other unelected officials have their heads collectively buried in the sand pretending that what they preach will work. The banks keep pretending that their non-performing loans are going to yield 100 % of what is owed and countries like Germany are still pretending that countries like Greece are going to pay back 100 % of what was borrowed. Pretend and extend. It has never worked in the past and is failing miserably now, so I guess the future wont be particularly rosy for a while. This, I grant you, is only one little piece of the EU at work, but surely it could do so much more for the citizens of Europe as opposed to the clique that it is today.
I would like to add that I am completely in favour of free movement of people, but there's so much there that stinks. Strangely enough I'm still undecided at present.

[PeeJay]

I can assure you the EU was created in 1993..that's quite a simple fact....the key underlying principles of freedom of movement of people, money, good and services were effectively put in place by the Maastricht treaty.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are just being pedantic. I addressed this clearly in my previous post ...

[RyeSloan]

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are just being pedantic. I addressed this clearly in my previous post ...

Me? Pedantic? Never been known before...;-)

[Keith_M]

I want to stay in, mainly for the following reasons.


1) We need the EU to protect us from the Business Oriented decisions of a UK Government. By that, I mainly refer to the Tories but it could equally apply to Labour if they tried to adopt similar policies

2) From a purely selfish point of view, I would like to retain the right to work in other EU countries. I've had the opportunity to work on projects in Germany and Austria that I most likely wouldn't have had the chance to do in the UK.

[Golden Bear]

Are the EEC Annual Accounts now signed off by the Auditors? I don't know what the current situation is but I recall that the Auditors refused to sign them off for approx 10 years in succession.

I trust the EEC just as much as I trust Sepp Blatter and FIFA!

[(((Fergus)))]

I want to stay in, mainly for the following reasons.


1) We need the EU to protect us from the Business Oriented decisions of a UK Government. By that, I mainly refer to the Tories but it could equally apply to Labour if they tried to adopt similar policies

2) From a purely selfish point of view, I would like to retain the right to work in other EU countries. I've had the opportunity to work on projects in Germany and Austria that I most likely wouldn't have had the chance to do in the UK.

Leaving the EU wouldn't necessarily mean you couldn't live and work in Europe. There will be plenty of EU nationals who still want to work in an independent UK and so arrangements will be made.

[SanFranHibs]

In, but the structure and aims of the EU need to be reviewed.

I have been on this line for years. Need to abolish the EU parliament and actually identify what constitutes Europe and have free trade and movement agreements.

As it stands i am out.

[SanFranHibs]

In, but the structure and aims of the EU need to be reviewed.

I have been on this line for years. Need to abolish the EU parliament and actually identify what constitutes Europe and have free trade and movement agreements.

As it stands i am out.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I hope we stay in. The case for the EU isn't made strongly enough, IMO. We hear a lot from UKIP, the Tory eurosceptics and the right wing press about how terrible and corrupt it all is, but the pro-European side never seems to stress the positives as much. There are people on the left who also want to leave the EU of course, but I think the principle of mutual help across the continent is a good one. They system certainly isn't perfect, but I'd stay in and argue for reform where needed rather than pull out.

The fact is that most people in the UK don't understand how the EU woks, and I include myself in that. I'm no expert on the parliament, the commission, the council of ministers, the European Courts in Strasbourg. It all seems so remote and unaccountable.

[Keith_M]

I don't know about In or Out but there is a definite need to 'shake it all about'.