View Full Version : 7 day NHS
Hibbyradge
18-05-2015, 05:46 PM
Does anyone else think that the Tories are cynically setting the health unions up for a fight they can't win over their 7 day NHS plan?
Once the Tories won that battle, the road to privatisation would be wide open with no-one standing in their way.
I'm sure I read somewhere that something similar might have happened to the NUM...
I may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me!
Beefster
18-05-2015, 07:30 PM
Aren't the unions in favour of a seven day NHS, in principle?
Personally, I think it's a nonsense that the NHS up here effectively shuts down for two days every weekend. My old man is in at the moment and no decisions are taken between Friday afternoon and Monday morning. Most patients are just expected to bide their time until everyone comes back.
Hibrandenburg
18-05-2015, 08:44 PM
Aren't the unions in favour of a seven day NHS, in principle?
Personally, I think it's a nonsense that the NHS up here effectively shuts down for two days every weekend. My old man is in at the moment and no decisions are taken between Friday afternoon and Monday morning. Most patients are just expected to bide their time until everyone comes back.
Unions in the UK. Do they even have a relevant role to play in 2015?
Hibbyradge
18-05-2015, 09:45 PM
I'd be very surprised if it was too far from the plan. The right in this country dislike the NHS ideologically.
Cameron knows that the promise of a 24/7 NHS will be hugely popular and it will be the unwieldy bureaucracy, the selfish, lazy and overpaid doctors and/or the unions that will be blamed for stopping it happening.
By the time the media whip the country into a just and righteous rage against all those leftie people who are literally standing in the way of us almost living forever because of 24/7 health care,hanging will be too good for them, never mind privatisation.
That dialogue has started already and that's why it was the first thing Cameron discussed.
We'll see.
Sir David Gray
18-05-2015, 09:53 PM
Aren't the unions in favour of a seven day NHS, in principle?
Personally, I think it's a nonsense that the NHS up here effectively shuts down for two days every weekend. My old man is in at the moment and no decisions are taken between Friday afternoon and Monday morning. Most patients are just expected to bide their time until everyone comes back.
Yep.
Also ridiculous that you can rarely get a hospital/doctor's appointment in the evening.
Yep.
Also ridiculous that you can rarely get a hospital/doctor's appointment in the evening.
Or that yu have to register and use a GP where you live rather than near work.
Allant1981
19-05-2015, 05:13 AM
Unions in the UK. Do they even have a relevant role to play in 2015?
In the nhs yes, im a manager within the nhs and we have to run pretty much everything past the union
Hibbyradge
19-05-2015, 06:32 AM
The coalition government cut every public service that it could.
Benefits offices were closed, DVLA and HMRC provision was stopped so now it's not possible to go in to a local office with a query.
And yet, the country is falling for the idea that the Tory government wants to increase NHS provision by 40%!
And that it will happen during 5 years of austerity and deficit cutting!
It's a fine idea.
However if the NHS is 'open' 7 days a week and also weekends and evenings where are the staff going to come from to fill all those extra hours and who's going to pay for it?
RyeSloan
19-05-2015, 07:18 AM
The coalition government cut every public service that it could. Benefits offices were closed, DVLA and HMRC provision was stopped so now it's not possible to go in to a local office with a query. And yet, the country is falling for the idea that the Tory government wants to increase NHS provision by 40%! And that it will happen during 5 years of austerity and deficit cutting!
Not seen you mention the appalling increase of death rates that have been quoted for the 'non 24/7 NHS'...up to 16% higher mortality rate on a Sunday, that's staggering.
To me it's quite clear...despite protestations otherwise the NHS is still run for the NHS not for it's users..in the words of NHS England's medical director: Sir Bruce says these [24/7] standards “undo more than 50 years of accumulated custom and practice that have failed to put the interests of patients first”
And the reactions of the unions....strike threats.
Nationalise / privatise I don't really care but it will be interesting to see who supports and who resists such changes and why.
It's a fine idea.
However if the NHS is 'open' 7 days a week and also weekends and evenings where are the staff going to come from to fill all those extra hours and who's going to pay for it?7 day working is actually on the table for a "full on" 24/7 service, in Radiology due to staffing issues we currently struggle to cope with demand, even when we are up to a near full quota we still struggle. It must be said though that a fair part of the RIE work 7 days a week & have done for a long time. A & E for example has more staff on the floor at weekends than it does Mon to Friday, primarily due to high numbers of pub fall outs/clubbers etc ..
X-Ray Imaging work 24/7 in most areas of the RIE, CT scanning, general X-Ray, Ultrasound, Fluroscopy etc, albeit in smaller numbers, as do Consultants, Doctors, Plaster Technicians, Surgeons, Nurses, Porters & Domestics.
A few areas are also 9-5 & after that we revert to on call/emergency procedures, to extend that service (as you mention above) to full on 24/7 will play havoc on the already stretched budgets, havoc within the current work force & moreso continuity, training & employment of skilled staff to fill these positions ...no easy task...
In the nhs yes, im a manager within the nhs and we have to run pretty much everything past the union
Who will be happy if the untrained staff are sorted and don't give much of a damn about the professional staff.
7 day working is actually on the table for a "full on" 24/7 service, in Radiology due to staffing issues we currently struggle to cope with demand, even when we are up to a near full quota we still struggle. It must be said though that a fair part of the RIE work 7 days a week & have done for a long time. A & E for example has more staff on the floor at weekends than it does Mon to Friday, primarily due to high numbers of pub fall outs/clubbers etc ..
X-Ray Imaging work 24/7 in most areas of the RIE, CT scanning, general X-Ray, Ultrasound, Fluroscopy etc, albeit in smaller numbers, as do Consultants, Doctors, Plaster Technicians, Surgeons, Nurses, Porters & Domestics.
A few areas are also 9-5 & after that we revert to on call/emergency procedures, to extend that service (as you mention above) to full on 24/7 will play havoc on the already stretched budgets, havoc within the current work force & moreso continuity, training & employment of skilled staff to fill these positions ...no easy task...
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
johnbc70
19-05-2015, 08:39 AM
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
Actually my wife works in the NHS and working weekends would suit us better for childcare. She would be able to take the kids to and from school and it would be great on a Friday when the kids finish at lunchtime. So for some it would be an improvement.
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.A few of my colleagues job share & split their shifts due to child care/logistical reasons etc & will impact on their lives too ...I work some weekends & also night shift too so it wont bother me too much but I know a lot of folk are or will be unhappy if we go to 24/7 ..
RyeSloan
19-05-2015, 08:57 AM
A few of my colleagues job share & split their shifts due to child care/logistical reasons etc & will impact on their lives too ...I work some weekends & also night shift too so it wont bother me too much but I know a lot of folk are or will be unhappy if we go to 24/7 ..
I'm sure they will and to be fair I'm sure I would be if my industry moved to 24/7 (although sometimes it already feels like that...with zero extra pay for the last time I pulled an 18 hour shift!) but really I'm amazed that the concept of weekends has ever been a serious consideration when providing healthcare, it's not as if people refrain from having strokes or heart attacks at the weekend is it?
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
I'm a female NHS worker who only works weekends. I actually do staff bank because I can work round family commitments. I know loads of people who would jump at an unsociable hours contract.
I'm sure they will and to be fair I'm sure I would be if my industry moved to 24/7 (although sometimes it already feels like that...with zero extra pay for the last time I pulled an 18 hour shift!) but really I'm amazed that the concept of weekends has ever been a serious consideration when providing healthcare, it's not as if people refrain from having strokes or heart attacks at the weekend is it?Of course not, but if you had a stroke or a heart attack, a broken leg, a broken finger or a splinter in yer bahooky at the weekend you would still be treated like you would any other day of the week ..
If you were Nursed in my Wifes ward on a Tuesday you would get the same care in my Wifes ward on a Saturday & Sunday ...its the same job, same level of care, no matter what day or time of the week it is ..the hospital doesn't shut at the weekends..
marinello59
19-05-2015, 09:04 AM
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
Would you say the same thing about male NHS staff members working weekends?
Geo_1875
19-05-2015, 10:24 AM
Not seen you mention the appalling increase of death rates that have been quoted for the 'non 24/7 NHS'...up to 16% higher mortality rate on a Sunday, that's staggering.
To me it's quite clear...despite protestations otherwise the NHS is still run for the NHS not for it's users..in the words of NHS England's medical director: Sir Bruce says these [24/7] standards “undo more than 50 years of accumulated custom and practice that have failed to put the interests of patients first”
And the reactions of the unions....strike threats.
Nationalise / privatise I don't really care but it will be interesting to see who supports and who resists such changes and why.
Not really staggering when you consider that 90% of weekend admissions are because of accidents and emergencies rather than the elective and clinical care admissions that happen during the week. I'd say it is staggeringly good that the weekend mortality rate is ONLY 16% higher.
But the mainstream media don't think that makes a headline.
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
Hospitals and their staff need to run round the clock, if people choose to join that profession and then decide to have kids then my opinion is that it's up to invidual to ensure they can adapt.
Beefster
19-05-2015, 11:35 AM
The right in this country dislike the NHS ideologically.
Except, not really. I'm not disputing that some right-wing folk may do, in the same way that some left-wing folk hate anything other than collective ownership, but not as an entity.
johnbc70
19-05-2015, 11:55 AM
Most agree in principal its a great idea so how about focussing on the way it will work rather than all the ways it won't.
Hospitals and their staff need to run round the clock, if people choose to join that profession and then decide to have kids then my opinion is that it's up to invidual to ensure they can adapt.
That's a bit harsh! Surely in any job you have you need to adapt when you have kids? Your making out that if you become a nurse your family life should be non existent or it should suffer. Like any job, no matter if your male or female, you make it work.
RyeSloan
19-05-2015, 12:05 PM
Not really staggering when you consider that 90% of weekend admissions are because of accidents and emergencies rather than the elective and clinical care admissions that happen during the week. I'd say it is staggeringly good that the weekend mortality rate is ONLY 16% higher. But the mainstream media don't think that makes a headline.
It seemed to bother the clinical director of NHS England enough to start the 24/7 process!
I'm sure the stats that the NHS themselves prepared would have accounted for the statistical variances you have pointed out...these figures were not dreamed up by the MSM but produced and published by the NHS.
RyeSloan
19-05-2015, 12:09 PM
Of course not, but if you had a stroke or a heart attack, a broken leg, a broken finger or a splinter in yer bahooky at the weekend you would still be treated like you would any other day of the week .. If you were Nursed in my Wifes ward on a Tuesday you would get the same care in my Wifes ward on a Saturday & Sunday ...its the same job, same level of care, no matter what day or time of the week it is ..the hospital doesn't shut at the weekends..
And so it should be and I don't doubt your comments for a second...there does though, by the NHS's own admission, seem to be a problem here.
As ever though the NHS is so huge there may well be significant regional and country variances on how it is managed and run over weekends so some areas may be 24/7 already while others may not...not pretending I have any significant insight right enough.
That's a bit harsh! Surely in any job you have you need to adapt when you have kids? Your making out that if you become a nurse your family life should be non existent or it should suffer. Like any job, no matter if your male or female, you make it work.
Apologies Mrs S, didn't mean to sound harsh. Any profession and employer has a responsibility to ensure all staff are looked after, it just always comes up at my work that parents get preferential treatment over those with no kids.
Apologies Mrs S, didn't mean to sound harsh. Any profession and employer has a responsibility to ensure all staff are looked after, it just always comes up at my work that parents get preferential treatment over those with no kids.
I think it depends on the buzz word of equality at the time. In recent years ive noticed huge changes in the way parents are accommodated within the NHS. Not a bad thing if it means good workers can work, a terrible thing if it's freeloaders getting everything they can from their employers.
7 day working is actually on the table for a "full on" 24/7 service, in Radiology due to staffing issues we currently struggle to cope with demand, even when we are up to a near full quota we still struggle. It must be said though that a fair part of the RIE work 7 days a week & have done for a long time. A & E for example has more staff on the floor at weekends than it does Mon to Friday, primarily due to high numbers of pub fall outs/clubbers etc ..
X-Ray Imaging work 24/7 in most areas of the RIE, CT scanning, general X-Ray, Ultrasound, Fluroscopy etc, albeit in smaller numbers, as do Consultants, Doctors, Plaster Technicians, Surgeons, Nurses, Porters & Domestics.
A few areas are also 9-5 & after that we revert to on call/emergency procedures, to extend that service (as you mention above) to full on 24/7 will play havoc on the already stretched budgets, havoc within the current work force & moreso continuity, training & employment of skilled staff to fill these positions ...no easy task...
Most folk will appreciate what happens in the hospitals, that they run 24/7 to deal with longer term episodes or emergencies as previously mentioned.
I think what the Torys are calling for are community services, such as GP practices, to be open later into the evenings and at weekends. One of the reasons for this will be to reduce pressure on A&E.
Is it being suggested that, in total, community services are open double the time they are now, or more? If it's a reduced service would people understand? I doubt it, more than half the folk rocking up to A&E just now are neither an accident nor an emergency.
These [GP] services are geared up to cover the hours they currently work. So are all the services that back them up, all the folk that do the tests on the bloods and other stuff that are taken, most of these are time critical; are Boots and other pharmacies going to stay open half the night to dish out pills and potions?
I'm not saying in utopia that extended opening shouldn't happen.
What I'm asking is, if let's say community services are open twice as long, where are we going to conjure up double the doctors from, double the nurses from, double all the other professionals from with all the back up staff they need?
And even if were possible to acquire and/or train all these people, where are we going to get the money to pay for it?
Allant1981
19-05-2015, 04:34 PM
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
Sorry but thats just not correct, my dept has a large number of females working in it and a lot of them have families and a lot of them work weekends with no issues, we are no different to any other business in that regards, a lot of staff actually prefer working weekends
Most folk will appreciate what happens in the hospitals, that they run 24/7 to deal with longer term episodes or emergencies as previously mentioned.
I think what the Torys are calling for are community services, such as GP practices, to be open later into the evenings and at weekends. One of the reasons for this will be to reduce pressure on A&E.
Is it being suggested that, in total, community services are open double the time they are now, or more? If it's a reduced service would people understand? I doubt it, more than half the folk rocking up to A&E just now are neither an accident nor an emergency.
These [GP] services are geared up to cover the hours they currently work. So are all the services that back them up, all the folk that do the tests on the bloods and other stuff that are taken, most of these are time critical; are Boots and other pharmacies going to stay open half the night to dish out pills and potions?
I'm not saying in utopia that extended opening shouldn't happen.
What I'm asking is, if let's say community services are open twice as long, where are we going to conjure up double the doctors from, double the nurses from, double all the other professionals from with all the back up staff they need?
And even if were possible to acquire and/or train all these people, where are we going to get the money to pay for it?I totally agree Jack ..we work in an already flexible service which could perhaps offer a bit more, but lets be honest here, this isn't an issue that has reared its head overnight, this is an issue that has been going for many a year & various previous governments have failed to act on it. There wont be a quick fix either because were not just talking about adding to existing staffing levels, we also have to factor in GPs, Nurses, Surgeons, Consultants etc that are near retiring, or those of whom have "had enough" & are moving to pastures new. Those highly skilled positions have to be accounted for as well as recruiting to add numbers, all that at a massive cost.
With regards the bit in bold..I have first hand experience of working in A & E and some of the stuff folk come in for would have you banging your head off the walls !! its no wonder why so many NHS staff are stressed & looking for a way out. Yes its about patient care, first & foremost but in order to make that work & to function well it also requires high levels of good staff morale. Sadly in many areas I have worked in that seems to be severely lacking.
Ps ..I like my job ...:greengrin
Sir David Gray
19-05-2015, 07:46 PM
Lots of female staff in the NHS who may find childcare a problem if they suddenly have to work weekends. Fine for the young folk but not very family friendly.
How do employees in other sectors, whose contracts cover Monday-Sunday, manage to cope with the demands of parenthood?
How do employees in other sectors, whose contracts cover Monday-Sunday, manage to cope with the demands of parenthood?
Most sector don't except retail.
O'Rourke3
19-05-2015, 09:42 PM
[QUOTE=SiMar
And the reactions of the unions....strike threats.
Nationalise / privatise I don't really care but it will be interesting to see who supports and who resists such changes and why.[/QUOTE]
Changing employees conditions and contracts without consultation would have me worried too. Govt claiming "no pot to piss in" intend to increase the hours of cover either means we all pay more or the staff working longer or for less. Without detail I'd be concerned enough to consider withdrawing my labour too. I may be cynical but a Tory Government and social benefits never seem to happen
Allant1981
20-05-2015, 04:24 AM
Most sector don't except retail.
Almost every job now is 5 over 7. There are very few mon-fri jobs
Hibrandenburg
20-05-2015, 07:12 AM
In the nhs yes, im a manager within the nhs and we have to run pretty much everything past the union
Run it past the Uni? Does this mean they have some form form of legal co-determination or is this just consultation? If it's a right to co-determine the mechanics of how that works would interest me on a professional level.
Hibrandenburg
20-05-2015, 07:21 AM
Hospitals and their staff need to run round the clock, if people choose to join that profession and then decide to have kids then my opinion is that it's up to invidual to ensure they can adapt.
That's a pretty outrageous statement. Have kids or work but don't expect help if you try both.
Allant1981
20-05-2015, 07:33 AM
Run it past the Uni? Does this mean they have some form form of legal co-determination or is this just consultation? If it's a right to co-determine the mechanics of how that works would interest me on a professional level.
Pretty much everything has to be done in partnership so unison gets informed of pretty much everything and go over it with their members
Hibrandenburg
20-05-2015, 08:07 AM
Pretty much everything has to be done in partnership so unison gets informed of pretty much everything and go over it with their members
The reason I'm asking is I'm a union rep for employees of a UK company working on German contracts and the company just can't get their heads round the German Works Council laws regarding co-determination. Here the employees elected body can veto any changes made within the company. It's proven to work because it gives the workforce a very strong voice at board level and forces the company to consider the employee before making changes and makes for happier workers. My company has real problems with letting their employees have an actual say in running the business and it would be great to have a UK equivalent to refer to.
Keith_M
20-05-2015, 09:37 AM
The reason I'm asking is I'm a union rep for employees of a UK company working on German contracts and the company just can't get their heads round the German Works Council laws regarding co-determination. Here the employees elected body can veto any changes made within the company. It's proven to work because it gives the workforce a very strong voice at board level and forces the company to consider the employee before making changes and makes for happier workers. My company has real problems with letting their employees have an actual say in running the business and it would be great to have a UK equivalent to refer to.
Paul, I don't think there is a genuine UK equivalent to the Workers Council. I have to admit that I still struggle with the concept quite a lot.
My wife was employed by an Agency, who had a contract to supply staff to Dornier (they make hospital equipment, among other things). As her one year contract was nearing its end, Dornier told her that they would like her to work for them permanently, instead of through the Agency.
She was by far the most qualified for the role, having just spent a year doing it, but the Workers Council were up in arms that one of the current Dornier Employees wasn't offered the job instead. The person they actually wanted to get the job was, in fact, on long term sickness leave, with no firm date on when she would even return (in the end, she didn't).
It took three months of negotiations between Management and the Workers Council before the WC finally gave their permission for the only person currently available and qualified for the job to actually be allowed to do the job.
Crazy.
Stranraer
20-05-2015, 10:55 AM
Aren't the unions in favour of a seven day NHS, in principle?
Personally, I think it's a nonsense that the NHS up here effectively shuts down for two days every weekend. My old man is in at the moment and no decisions are taken between Friday afternoon and Monday morning. Most patients are just expected to bide their time until everyone comes back.
If there wasn't a shortage of GP's up here I think it would be a good idea and I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to patients biding their time, my family have had some horrible experiences recently due to weekend decisions not being made.
Hibrandenburg
20-05-2015, 01:52 PM
Paul, I don't think there is a genuine UK equivalent to the Workers Council. I have to admit that I still struggle with the concept quite a lot.
My wife was employed by an Agency, who had a contract to supply staff to Dornier (they make hospital equipment, among other things). As her one year contract was nearing its end, Dornier told her that they would like her to work for them permanently, instead of through the Agency.
She was by far the most qualified for the role, having just spent a year doing it, but the Workers Council were up in arms that one of the current Dornier Employees wasn't offered the job instead. The person they actually wanted to get the job was, in fact, on long term sickness leave, with no firm date on when she would even return (in the end, she didn't).
It took three months of negotiations between Management and the Workers Council before the WC finally gave their permission for the only person currently available and qualified for the job to actually be allowed to do the job.
Crazy.
Not knowing the details Keith, I can only assume that the Works Council were livid about agency staff being promoted ahead of a colleague on a permanent contract. We're in a permanent fight with our company who would fire us all at the drop of a hat and replace us with agency staff if they could. I've nothing in principle about hiring agency staff as a stop gap measure until a permanent vacancy can be filled but when it becomes an employment policy, this is the first step in wage dumping and ends with zero hours contracts. Our problems are magnified by a massive surplus of pilots in the market at the moment and this means there's lots of guys out there who are willing to work for less money and inferior terms and conditions. It's a downward spiral that leads to exploitation and in our industry that is unacceptable because it also carries implications for safety.
Glad in your Mrs' case it got sorted.
Almost every job now is 5 over 7. There are very few mon-fri jobs
I suspect that's a bit of an exaggeration.
That's a pretty outrageous statement. Have kids or work but don't expect help if you try both.
If a job wants you to give up having a family to pursue the career, it would have to pay one hell than the NHS does of a lot more to compensate. I can see their recruitment issues getting any better under that proposal. In fact, I would see good staff leaving.
Allant1981
21-05-2015, 03:41 PM
I suspect that's a bit of an exaggeration.
I can gaurantee its not
I can gaurantee its not
With respect. Bollocks. Almost every job is five over seven!!?
With respect. Bollocks. Almost every job is five over seven!!?
38% of workers work on Saturday 27% of workers on a Sunday.
Offices are mostly empty, of course!
marinello59
21-05-2015, 03:57 PM
If a job wants you to give up having a family to pursue the career, it would have to pay one hell than the NHS does of a lot more to compensate. I can see their recruitment issues getting any better under that proposal. In fact, I would see good staff leaving.
Yet people take on jobs in hospitality, retail, transport etc and still manage to raise a family.
Yet people take on jobs in hospitality, retail, transport etc and still manage to raise a family.
Not really high skilled jobs like health. Notwithstanding that many health posts are 7 day but the attrition rate is pretty high - especially amongst women. You must remember under Labour they government trying to get trained nurses to return. Didn't work.
Allant1981
21-05-2015, 06:06 PM
With respect. Bollocks. Almost every job is five over seven!!?
Are you even reading the post correctly, i said most jobs ARE 5 over 7 so less of your bollocks crap
marinello59
21-05-2015, 06:45 PM
Not really high skilled jobs like health. Notwithstanding that many health posts are 7 day but the attrition rate is pretty high - especially amongst women. You must remember under Labour they government trying to get trained nurses to return. Didn't work.
There are some highly qualified people in the industries I mentioned. And highly skilled or not people manage to work outside the traditional 9 -5 and still raise families. For a lot of families weekend working helps . Mum or Dad can look after the kids so they save on care costs.
Are you even reading the post correctly, i said most jobs ARE 5 over 7 so less of your bollocks crap
Most jobs do not require weekend work.
There are some highly qualified people in the industries I mentioned. And highly skilled or not people manage to work outside the traditional 9 -5 and still raise families. For a lot of families weekend working helps . Mum or Dad can look after the kids so they save on care costs.
...and they choose to do so. This is talking about changing the work patterns of tens of thousands of workers who did not choose that work pattern.
Allant1981
21-05-2015, 09:03 PM
Most jobs do not require weekend work.
What jobs would these be cause im pretty sure almost all of my staff would love these jobs
What jobs would these be cause im pretty sure almost all of my staff would love these jobs
Have you never noticed that offices tend to be empty at the weekend?
Allant1981
21-05-2015, 09:10 PM
Have you never noticed that offices tend to be empty at the weekend?
So office jobs are most jobs now are they? interesting
So office jobs are most jobs now are they? interesting
Depends where you are but around half in some areas. Avergae 38% work on a weekend day so not only is is not most its not even a majority. I don't know anyone who works weekends as a contratual requirement.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 04:41 AM
Depends where you are but around half in some areas. Avergae 38% work on a weekend day so not only is is not most its not even a majority. I don't know anyone who works weekends as a contratual requirement.
With all due respect you are talking rubbish
marinello59
22-05-2015, 05:43 AM
...and they choose to do so. This is talking about changing the work patterns of tens of thousands of workers who did not choose that work pattern.
So what? Change can be managed surely?
weecounty hibby
22-05-2015, 08:59 AM
I don't know anyone who works weekends as a contratual requirement.
You can't know many people then. 120 employees at my place of work approximately 90 of them are contractually obliged to work weekends. They are compensated to do so through shift/unsocial hours payments but your argument there is nonsense
So what? Change can be managed surely?
And balanced with staff retention which is already a massive issue especially given the cost to train these staff.
You can't know many people then. 120 employees at my place of work approximately 90 of them are contractually obliged to work weekends. They are compensated to do so through shift/unsocial hours payments but your argument there is nonsense
So we have to increase the NHS budget to make similar shift/anti social hours payments which is what I said above. People in posts at the moment may have chisen them in part due to the work patterns and many will not want to move onto a different work pattern. Some will take compensation others will move elsewhere and leave a gap. We're talking about trained professionals who are not easily replaced especially in an organisation that already has recruitment an dretention problems not least as the pay budgets stretched.
To say moving to 7 day working is simple is the economics of cloud coockoo land. I have my dobts that is worth the additional cost and disruption.
marinello59
22-05-2015, 10:09 AM
And balanced with staff retention which is already a massive issue especially given the cost to train these staff.
That's what's managing change is all about. Sunday retail opening was dismissed as impossible at one time. It's hard to imagine a Sunday now where virtually everywhere is closed.
With all due respect you are talking rubbish
THE 38% is an EU stat.
You can read the report if you want.
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2007/working-conditions/extended-and-unusual-working-hours-in-european-companies
It's gripping!!
That's what's managing change is all about. Sunday retail opening was dismissed as impossible at one time. It's hard to imagine a Sunday now where virtually everywhere is closed.
Sunday retailing makes money. The public sector costs money. That's the difference.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 11:06 AM
THE 38% is an EU stat.
You can read the report if you want.
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/publications/report/2007/working-conditions/extended-and-unusual-working-hours-in-european-companies
It's gripping!!
So 38% of companies in that survey, not exactly an exact figure is it? i can assure you that most jobs now have weekend work involved, obviously there are places that only work mon-fri but they will be in a minority now.
RyeSloan
22-05-2015, 11:12 AM
So 38% of companies in that survey, not exactly an exact figure is it? i can assure you that most jobs now have weekend work involved, obviously there are places that only work mon-fri but they will be in a minority now.
It is though at least a source to back up his argument...
You stated earlier that 'very few' jobs were 9-5, now you say 'most jobs now have weekend work' do you have any source apart from your own opinion to back up those statements?
marinello59
22-05-2015, 11:32 AM
Sunday retailing makes money. The public sector costs money. That's the difference.
What difference does that make?
Both are there to serve the public, not the other way round.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 11:33 AM
It is though at least a source to back up his argument...
You stated earlier that 'very few' jobs were 9-5, now you say 'most jobs now have weekend work' do you have any source apart from your own opinion to back up those statements?
To be honest no i havent checked any websites but i could do my own survey with people i know and you would have completely different results to what this particular survey tells you, surveys dont give a true reflection of society on a whole do they? I could do a survey of all the jobs within my dept and the % of weekend work would be almost 100%
As for what i said in previous posts, saying very few jobs are 9-5 and most jobs involve weekends are pretty much the exact same thing are they not?
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 12:55 PM
So 38% of companies in that survey, not exactly an exact figure is it? i can assure you that most jobs now have weekend work involved, obviously there are places that only work mon-fri but they will be in a minority now.
Where are you getting this information from?
In my opinion, most people are not contractually obliged to work at the weekend.
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 01:01 PM
Most office workers, law firms, civil servants, LA staff, teachers, lecturers and bankers work Mon - Fri.
Many self employed people work Mon- Fri.
RyeSloan
22-05-2015, 01:27 PM
To be honest no i havent checked any websites but i could do my own survey with people i know and you would have completely different results to what this particular survey tells you, surveys dont give a true reflection of society on a whole do they? I could do a survey of all the jobs within my dept and the % of weekend work would be almost 100% As for what i said in previous posts, saying very few jobs are 9-5 and most jobs involve weekends are pretty much the exact same thing are they not?
So in other words you are calling someone else's point 'rubbish' based on nothing but your own opinion which has based on nothing but your own anecdotal evidence, at least now we are clear on that.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 02:03 PM
Where are you getting this information from?
In my opinion, most people are not contractually obliged to work at the weekend.
People who work 5 over 7 will have it written in that they may be required to work weekends
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 02:14 PM
People who work 5 over 7 will have it written in that they may be required to work weekends
Yes, those folk will have contracts like that, but most people don't even work at the weekend at all, never mind 5 over 7!
What difference does that make?
Both are there to serve the public, not the other way round.
Retail is there to serve the owners of the businesses and their shareholders. If it makes money they do it, if it looses money they don't.
The public sector just costs money. The criteria there is how much do people want taken out of their wage packets for what kind and how much of a service. Therein lies a major element of the political divide.
marinello59
22-05-2015, 02:36 PM
Retail is there to serve the owners of the businesses and their shareholders. If it makes money they do it, if it looses money they don't.
The public sector just costs money. The criteria there is how much do people want taken out of their wage packets for what kind and how much of a service. Therein lies a major element of the political divide.
Are you really trying to argue that the primary purpose of the NHS isn't to serve the public?
Whether we pay for purchases via our taxes or direct from our wallets our expectations shouldn't be any less.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 02:51 PM
So in other words you are calling someone else's point 'rubbish' based on nothing but your own opinion which has based on nothing but your own anecdotal evidence, at least now we are clear on that.
I don't think the poster is correct in what he is saying yes, I have employed enough staff and interviewed enough people over the years to know how other industries work
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 03:16 PM
I don't think the poster is correct in what he is saying yes, I have employed enough staff and interviewed enough people over the years to know how other industries work
Why do you think less people travel at the weekend, whether by road, rail or air? :dunno:
Roads are deserted on Sunday morning, for example.
Why are pubs and restaurants much busier at weekends? :dunno:
Why do folk keep calling for Saturday kick offs? :dunno:
Why do you think the shops are busier at the weekends? :dunno:
Why are there no public holidays on Saturdays and Sundays, except of course Christmas and New Year? :dunno:
That all suggests to me that more folk are off at the weekend than during the week, therefore your "most folk work 5 over 7" doesn't hold up.
RyeSloan
22-05-2015, 03:23 PM
I don't think the poster is correct in what he is saying yes, I have employed enough staff and interviewed enough people over the years to know how other industries work
So you have an all encompassing view of the contracts across the whole of the workforce and have determined therefore that despite not being able to produce one statistic or source to back up your assertion that you are correct and an opposite view is 'rubbish'.
What if I was to say I have employed 100's of people in my career from many walks of life and all of them have been mon - fri 9-5 contracts coming, in the vast majority of cases, from a similar contract ...would that make my assertion that most jobs are still 9-5 (if I wanted to make such an assertion) any more or less relevant than what your experience has shown you?
I'll leave this here as in not overly bothered about what the actual state of affairs is (my gut instinct is the majority of jobs are still mon - fri based on anecdotal evidence of rush hours, train journeys, bus scheduling and how busy retail parks etc are at weekends compared to a weekday but the gap is probably narrowing) but I was bothered that you can argue so strongly about something that in the end of the day you could not substantiate in any way beyond your own perspective/experiences.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 03:29 PM
Why do you think less people travel at the weekend, whether by road, rail or air? :dunno:
Roads are deserted on Sunday morning, for example.
Why are pubs and restaurants much busier at weekends? :dunno:
Why do folk keep calling for Saturday kick offs? :dunno:
Why do you think the shops are busier at the weekends? :dunno:
Why are there no public holidays on Saturdays and Sundays, except of course Christmas and New Year? :dunno:
That all suggests to me that more folk are off at the weekend than during the week, therefore your "most folk work 5 over 7" doesn't hold up.
im sure you will find there are a lot of people travel at the weekend, when i worked weekends i still went out for a drink and food at the weekend so not sure if that is a good example,saturday kick offs are historical thats why, i actually dont know about public holidays but even at christmas and new year the public holidays arent at the weekend
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 03:32 PM
im sure you will find there are a lot of people travel at the weekend, when i worked weekends i still went out for a drink and food at the weekend so not sure if that is a good example,saturday kick offs are historical thats why, i actually dont know about public holidays but even at christmas and new year the public holidays arent at the weekend
Yip, I'm sure I will. Loads.
I'm sure you'll find that there are a neck of a lot more travelling Monday to Friday.
Which was my point.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 03:35 PM
So you have an all encompassing view of the contracts across the whole of the workforce and have determined therefore that despite not being able to produce one statistic or source to back up your assertion that you are correct and an opposite view is 'rubbish'.
What if I was to say I have employed 100's of people in my career from many walks of life and all of them have been mon - fri 9-5 contracts coming, in the vast majority of cases, from a similar contract ...would that make my assertion that most jobs are still 9-5 (if I wanted to make such an assertion) any more or less relevant than what your experience has shown you?
I'll leave this here as in not overly bothered about what the actual state of affairs is (my gut instinct is the majority of jobs are still mon - fri based on anecdotal evidence of rush hours, train journeys, bus scheduling and how busy retail parks etc are at weekends compared to a weekday but the gap is probably narrowing) but I was bothered that you can argue so strongly about something that in the end of the day you could not substantiate in any way beyond your own perspective/experiences.
you are easily bothered, i do apologise for not having the time on my break to trawl the internet looking for hard facts. And the facts there were shown in that survey will have changed since then so im pretty sure the 38% will have increased by now but i may be wrong
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 03:36 PM
Yip, I'm sure I will. Loads.
I'm sure you'll find that there are a neck of a lot more travelling Monday to Friday.
Which was my point.
I agree the roads are busier going to edinburgh for example as the outskirts are mostly office based jobs which are primarily monday to friday
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 03:39 PM
I agree the roads are busier going to edinburgh for example as the outskirts are mostly office based jobs which are primarily monday to friday
This is fun. :wink:
How do you account for the fact that the London congestion charge is only payable Monday to Friday?
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 03:49 PM
This is fun. :wink:
How do you account for the fact that the London congestion charge is only payable Monday to Friday?
Probably because schools are off so traffic flow wont be as busy, the many companies that have offices in the city will also be closed so again traffic flow will be less? I will probably be wrong though
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 03:59 PM
Probably because schools are off so traffic flow wont be as busy, the many companies that have offices in the city will also be closed so again traffic flow will be less? I will probably be wrong though
Anyway, enough's enough.
I wouldn't have been drawn to this debate had you not said,
Almost every job now is 5 over 7. There are very few mon-fri jobs from which, I'm pleased to see, you have rightly back tracked.
Sure, there are a lot more people working on a Saturday in particular than there used to be, but certainly not the majority and, apart from police officers at my golf club, I know no-one else who works 5 over 7.
:aok:
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 04:04 PM
Anyway, enough's enough.
I wouldn't have been drawn to this debate had you not said, from which, I'm pleased to see, you have rightly back tracked.
Sure, there are a lot more people working on a Saturday in particular than there used to be, but certainly not the majority and, apart from police officers at my golf club, I know no-one else who works 5 over 7.
:aok:
Havent backtracked in the slightest, ill stick by what i said, wish i knew as many people as you, then id actually have folk to see at the weekend
And i cant send the link on my phone but one in 13 jobs is in hospitality and tourism and im sure you will agree these jobs will be weekend work, i worked in a hotel so know for sure they do, these stats came from the scottish exec
Back to NHS 7 days ;)it won't work without the support of the workers, if it is introduced within current budgets it will not be workable simply because the support staff are mostly 9-5 mon to Fri, admittedly it is different for community services than for acute but any plans to introduce 7 days across the NHS will cost significantly more than to run the traditional 5 day. There are many companies that pay extra for staff to work unsocial hours including the NHS but to change terms and conditions for workers without looking at the incentives for staff to do so will fail. Personally I would welcome a 7 day health service but would wonder where the money would come from to support it without risk.
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 04:36 PM
Havent backtracked in the slightest, ill stick by what i said, wish i knew as many people as you, then id actually have folk to see at the weekend
And i cant send the link on my phone but one in 13 jobs is in hospitality and tourism and im sure you will agree these jobs will be weekend work, i worked in a hotel so know for sure they do, these stats came from the scottish exec
Well, moving from "Almost every job now is 5 over 7 to "most jobs now have weekend work", whilst still wrong, looked like backtracking to me.
However, I suspect you're just being stubborn. You still think, despite all the arguments and the stats against it, and being able to provide no stats of your own, that "Almost every job now is 5 over 7"? Really?
Wow.
Here's something else for you to dismiss. :wink:
"This EU study (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/pubdocs/2006/98/en/2/ef0698en.pdf) and this longer one (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/pubdocs/2010/74/en/3/EF1074EN.pdf) look at trends and work hours. "Standard working time arrangements - a five-day week of 40 hours, worked Monday to Friday - is still the norm for most Europeans" they conclude, with figures ranging from between 61% and 77% in the more detailed text."
http://www.wellho.net/mouth/3188_what-proportion-of-the-british-workforce-still-works-a-monday-to-friday-9-to-5-week-.html
RyeSloan
22-05-2015, 04:36 PM
you are easily bothered, i do apologise for not having the time on my break to trawl the internet looking for hard facts. And the facts there were shown in that survey will have changed since then so im pretty sure the 38% will have increased by now but i may be wrong
Good to know that you don't bother with any trifling matter like hard facts when calling other peoples points 'rubbish'. This easily bothered pedant is pleased with that clarification.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 04:40 PM
Good to know that you don't bother with any trifling matter like hard facts when calling other peoples points 'rubbish'. This easily bothered pedant is pleased with that clarification.
i said rubbish on one post as i dont believe for a second that the poster doesnt know someone who doesnt have to work weekends as part of their working week
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 04:49 PM
Well, moving from "Almost every job now is 5 over 7 to "most jobs now have weekend work", whilst still wrong, looked like backtracking to me.
However, I suspect you're just being stubborn. You still think, despite all the arguments and the stats against it, and being able to provide no stats of your own, that "Almost every job now is 5 over 7"? Really?
Wow.
Here's something else for you to dismiss. :wink:
"This EU study (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/pubdocs/2006/98/en/2/ef0698en.pdf) and this longer one (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/pubdocs/2010/74/en/3/EF1074EN.pdf) look at trends and work hours. "Standard working time arrangements - a five-day week of 40 hours, worked Monday to Friday - is still the norm for most Europeans" they conclude, with figures ranging from between 61% and 77% in the more detailed text."
http://www.wellho.net/mouth/3188_what-proportion-of-the-british-workforce-still-works-a-monday-to-friday-9-to-5-week-.html
Again i cant post the link on my phone but 1 in 13 jobs are in hospitality and tourism in scotland so im pretty sure these jobs will have weekend work involved, good to see europeans having weekends to themselves
CropleyWasGod
22-05-2015, 04:55 PM
Again i cant post the link on my phone but 1 in 13 jobs are in hospitality and tourism in scotland so im pretty sure these jobs will have weekend work involved, good to see europeans having weekends to themselves
That's 1 in 13. What schedules do the other 12 have?
We're in Europe, too [emoji6]
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 04:56 PM
That's 1 in 13. What schedules do the other 12 have?
We're in Europe, too [emoji6]
Night shift probably!!!
CropleyWasGod
22-05-2015, 04:58 PM
Night shift probably!!!
Nice try [emoji1]
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 05:00 PM
Again i cant post the link on my phone but 1 in 13 jobs are in hospitality and tourism in scotland so im pretty sure these jobs will have weekend work involved, good to see europeans having weekends to themselves
That's just over 7.5% of the workforce.
You said "almost every job was 5 over 7". You're still 43% away from a narrow majority of jobs, never mind "almost all".
Have a scour at the number of people in legal, financial, secretarial, professional, teaching and education, administrative, architecture, local authority, construction and building on this site http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/search/index.html?newquery=uk+occupations.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Allant1981
22-05-2015, 05:07 PM
That's just over 7.5% of the workforce.
You said "almost every job was 5 over 7". You're still 43% away from a narrow majority of jobs, never mind "almost all".
Have a scour at the number of people in legal, financial, secretarial, professional, teaching and education, administrative, architecture, local authority, construction and building on this site http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/search/index.html?newquery=uk+occupations.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Yes and thats just one sector, i could give a big list like yourself of jobs that work weekends like, shop workers, nhs staff, police, fire brigade, lorry drivers, factory staff. the list could go on and on but im getting bored now and have a hungry 6 yr old so mcdonalds it is. I just hope there is staff there at this time on a friday to serve me!!
Hibbyradge
22-05-2015, 05:11 PM
Yes and thats just one sector, i could give a big list like yourself of jobs that work weekends like, shop workers, nhs staff, police, fire brigade, lorry drivers, factory staff. the list could go on and on but im getting bored now and have a hungry 6 yr old so mcdonalds it is. I just hope there is staff there at this time on a friday to serve me!!
Wait till the weekend!
Anyway, here's something else you won't look at (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/243957/nts2012-01.pdf)
If you could provide a single piece of evidence to back up your preposterous claim that Almost all jobs are 5 over 7, I'd be very interested to read it.
In the meantime, enjoy your Big Mac. :aok:
i said rubbish on one post as i dont believe for a second that the poster doesnt know someone who doesnt have to work weekends as part of their working week
I don't. And I mean socially ( or in the biblical sense). Everyone I know works Mon to Fri.
Its a counter to your own extrapolation of personal experience. No more can your experience be projected to reflect the general situation that can mine.
That would be rubbish, after all.
Hibbyradge
23-05-2015, 08:44 AM
I'm not sure what it proves, but I'm currently sitting in the dermatology department at Laurieston Place waiting to see a consultant about a minor skin complaint.
Apart from the receptionist who is doing a crossword, and hopefully a consultant, I'm the only person here.
All the arguments rolled into one post!
I'm not sure what it proves, but I'm currently sitting in the dermatology department at Laurieston Place waiting to see a consultant about a minor skin complaint.
Apart from the receptionist who is doing a crossword, and hopefully a consultant, I'm the only person here.
All the arguments rolled into one post!
You the only patient? I'm assuming you are visiting not working.
Hibbyradge
23-05-2015, 01:37 PM
You the only patient? I'm assuming you are visiting not working.
I was the only patient at time of posting. Others arrived.
I was seen at 9.45 and by 10.15 I'd been inspected, had a biopsy taken and 7 stitches!
I didn't see that coming!
Still, I walked down to Robbies Bar and was there before 11.00.
I was the only patient at time of posting. Others arrived.
I was seen at 9.45 and by 10.15 I'd been inspected, had a biopsy taken and 7 stitches!
I didn't see that coming!
Still, I walked down to Robbies Bar and was there before 11.00.
Bet the result hurt more! Seriously tho hope its not too sair
Bristolhibby
27-05-2015, 09:21 PM
Of course not, but if you had a stroke or a heart attack, a broken leg, a broken finger or a splinter in yer bahooky at the weekend you would still be treated like you would any other day of the week ..
If you were Nursed in my Wifes ward on a Tuesday you would get the same care in my Wifes ward on a Saturday & Sunday ...its the same job, same level of care, no matter what day or time of the week it is ..the hospital doesn't shut at the weekends..
I know, it's basically the access to a GP that everyone is screaming about.
And in the past I have gone to out local NHS Drop in center or the out of hours at our community hospital.
Not sure what the issue is. Also just to add, the one and only time I was under the knife, I had surgery on the Saturday, and was out on the Sunday.
J
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