Butcher

[hibees 7062]

Just released 13 players . I wonder if he's watched any of them play

[Hibby Gav]

I'm just enjoying the fact that a thread with his name on it has NHC beside it !

ggtth

[emerald green]

Just released 13 players . I wonder if he's watched any of them play

These guys don't know what a lucky escape they've just had in some ways.

I hope they all find new clubs quickly though. Never easy being told you are being "let go".

[Hibs Class]

I'm just enjoying the fact that a thread with his name on it has NHC beside it !

ggtth

:thumbsup:

[CallumLaidlaw]

These 13 must have had some footballing ability, or weren't very good at aiming the ball into corners

[Hibernia&Alba]

He should be behind bars, never to be released, for crimes against Hibernian and football.

[Bostonhibby]

Saved the boys having to buy swords to throw themselves on after the first training session. Good luck to them all. They've had a lucky escape.

[Winston Ingram]

The technical players and the strong characters will have been canned. Yer no good to Tel if you won't let him shout in your face.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Another squad butchered

[Northernhibee]

Their fans already beginning to show signs of suspicion about Butcher interestingly.

[FranckSuzy]

At least being released now takes away the fear of being released in the future :rolleyes:

[Boyle89]

Some fans not happy at who's being let go. Wait till they see his exciting football come pre season....

[hibees 7062]

Some fans not happy at who's being let go. Wait till they see his exciting football come pre season....


I thought Aaron O'Connor was a good striker

[gorgie greens]

I am about 5 miles from Newport and know a fair few County fans but feel bad letting them know they have got the worse manager EVER to have managed our club,
i just hope the fans become restless sooner rather than later as it has taken the club years to get back in the top flight ,and i can only see one out come with Butcher there,
Never found a name more suitable to kill your club

[lyonhibs]

At least he's done it AFTER the season is over. The stupid twat went around our changing room like a bull in a China shop with months of the season left !

[DH1875]

I still can't believe that some folks on here wanted to give him this season and didn't think he should have been fired at the time.

[mjh]

:top marks
I'm just enjoying the fact that a thread with his name on it has NHC beside it !

ggtth

[Keith_M]

Don't Newport play in a Rugby Stadium?


:hmmm:

[Bostonhibby]

I still can't believe that some folks on here wanted to give him this season and didn't think he should have been fired at the time.
Cannae be right all the time.

The majority thought he'd be an improvement, he wasn't but many are over it now.,pray for Newport

[--------]

Their fans already beginning to show signs of suspicion about Butcher interestingly.


So is last season's team captain -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32716127

Poor old Newport.

[Canongatehibs]

Just released 13 players . I wonder if he's watched any of them play

who gives a flying f***?

the guy is history.

[Gus]

I am about 5 miles from Newport and know a fair few County fans but feel bad letting them know they have got the worse manager EVER to have managed our club,
i just hope the fans become restless sooner rather than later as it has taken the club years to get back in the top flight ,and i can only see one out come with Butcher there,
Never found a name more suitable to kill your club

My twin stays in Magor/Undy, I am visiting him this week & his inlaws are County fans so I will enjoy giving them the low down

[gorgie greens]

My twin stays in Magor/Undy, I am visiting him this week & his inlaws are County fans so I will enjoy giving them the low down
i joined there fans forum and have been putting them in the picture, and it is not a very nice picture at that

[Gus]

i joined there fans forum and have been putting them in the picture, and it is not a very nice picture at that

Good lad

[Andy Bee]

So is last season's team captain -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32716127

Poor old Newport.



"Butcher succeeded Justin Edinburgh", errrm naw he didnae :greengrin

[Pete]

My twin stays in Magor/Undy, I am visiting him this week & his inlaws are County fans so I will enjoy giving them the low down


i joined there fans forum and have been putting them in the picture, and it is not a very nice picture at that

So I've noticed but all you are doing is coming across as rather bitter and can I ask what you think you are achieving by doing this? You are bringing them down unnecessarily

Butcher failed at our club because he came in halfway through a season and couldn't get rid of the players he couldn't manage. He also brought an old-school, authoritarian way of thinking where you did what you were told and the goalie coach doubled up as the scout.

Newport are a smaller club than what we are and his way of doing things can work in the same way that it did at ICT. No expectations at all and a manager being allowed to do his own thing with the players that he chooses.

This mass releasing of players is merely making way for people who buy into his ideas and it shouldn't worry anyone at Newport. I wouldn't swap Stubbs for the world but if we had taken Butcher at the beginning of last season I can bet we wouldn't be in the second teir as we would have had a mass turnover immediately.

There is no such thing as a lucky football manager and the way ICT were playing when he left them was no fluke. They were fitter, stronger, hungrier, more confident and genuinely looked greater than the sum of their parts.

Wrong man who definitely came in at the wrong time for us. However, peope just fit with clubs and situations so there's a chance that Newport could have a perfect match...you never know.

[Allant1981]

So I've noticed but all you are doing is coming across as rather bitter and can I ask what you think you are achieving by doing this? You are bringing them down unnecessarily

Butcher failed at our club because he came in halfway through a season and couldn't get rid of the players he couldn't manage. He also brought an old-school, authoritarian way of thinking where you did what you were told and the goalie coach doubled up as the scout.

Newport are a smaller club than what we are and his way of doing things can work in the same way that it did at ICT. No expectations at all and a manager being allowed to do his own thing with the players that he chooses.

This mass releasing of players is merely making way for people who buy into his ideas and it shouldn't worry anyone at Newport. I wouldn't swap Stubbs for the world but if we had taken Butcher at the beginning of last season I can bet we wouldn't be in the second teir as we would have had a mass turnover immediately.

There is no such thing as a lucky football manager and the way ICT were playing when he left them was no fluke. They were fitter, stronger, hungrier, more confident and genuinely looked greater than the sum of their parts.

Wrong man who definitely came in at the wrong time for us. However, peope just fit with clubs and situations so there's a chance that Newport could have a perfect match...you never know.

The guy is a crap manager no matter what you think, his record at every club except ITC proves this, if he had came in earlier than he did he would have had us finishing bottom instead of 11th

[DH1875]

So I've noticed but all you are doing is coming across as rather bitter and can I ask what you think you are achieving by doing this? You are bringing them down unnecessarily

Butcher failed at our club because he came in halfway through a season and couldn't get rid of the players he couldn't manage. He also brought an old-school, authoritarian way of thinking where you did what you were told and the goalie coach doubled up as the scout.

Newport are a smaller club than what we are and his way of doing things can work in the same way that it did at ICT. No expectations at all and a manager being allowed to do his own thing with the players that he chooses.

This mass releasing of players is merely making way for people who buy into his ideas and it shouldn't worry anyone at Newport. I wouldn't swap Stubbs for the world but if we had taken Butcher at the beginning of last season I can bet we wouldn't be in the second teir as we would have had a mass turnover immediately.

There is no such thing as a lucky football manager and the way ICT were playing when he left them was no fluke. They were fitter, stronger, hungrier, more confident and genuinely looked greater than the sum of their parts.

Wrong man who definitely came in at the wrong time for us. However, peope just fit with clubs and situations so there's a chance that Newport could have a perfect match...you never know.

Erm.....just, naw.

[bigwheel]

So I've noticed but all you are doing is coming across as rather bitter and can I ask what you think you are achieving by doing this? You are bringing them down unnecessarily

Butcher failed at our club because he came in halfway through a season and couldn't get rid of the players he couldn't manage. He also brought an old-school, authoritarian way of thinking where you did what you were told and the goalie coach doubled up as the scout.

Newport are a smaller club than what we are and his way of doing things can work in the same way that it did at ICT. No expectations at all and a manager being allowed to do his own thing with the players that he chooses.

This mass releasing of players is merely making way for people who buy into his ideas and it shouldn't worry anyone at Newport. I wouldn't swap Stubbs for the world but if we had taken Butcher at the beginning of last season I can bet we wouldn't be in the second teir as we would have had a mass turnover immediately.

There is no such thing as a lucky football manager and the way ICT were playing when he left them was no fluke. They were fitter, stronger, hungrier, more confident and genuinely looked greater than the sum of their parts.

Wrong man who definitely came in at the wrong time for us. However, peope just fit with clubs and situations so there's a chance that Newport could have a perfect match...you never know.

are you really peddling this analysis...Butcher picked up a team middle of the league, and killed their spirit and their results. The players he did bring in were worse than the ones he had...he is useless. He has been lucky twice, failed disastrously everywhere else. it will never happen again.

[Pete]

are you really peddling this analysis...Butcher picked up a team middle of the league, and killed their spirit and their results. The players he did bring in were worse than the ones he had...he is useless. He has been lucky twice, failed disastrously everywhere else. it will never happen again.

The board at Newport must also think along my lines as they must have picked him from dozens of candidates. They are also fully aware of what happened at hibs and ICT.

If he succeeds here will he just have got lucky again? I don't know what will happen and neither do you but I think this will solve an argument or two. He doesn't have the team with him that he had at his last two jobs so we'll see.

The real point was that we need to move on and leave him, and Newport alone.

[bigwheel]

The board at Newport must also think along my lines as they must have picked him from dozens of candidates. They are also fully aware of what happened at hibs and ICT.

If he succeeds here will he just have got lucky again? I don't know what will happen and neither do you but I think this will solve an argument or two. He doesn't have the team with him that he had at his last two jobs so we'll see.

The real point was that we need to move on and leave him, and Newport alone.

I'm not bothered what happens...I simply can't believe there is a Hibs fan who watched what he did to us, and still thinks he has the ability to be a good manager...

[Pete]

I'm not bothered what happens...I simply can't believe there is a Hibs fan who watched what he did to us, and still thinks he has the ability to be a Gus manager...

So you can't believe there is a hibs fan who can look upon things objectively? Maybe they aren't all as bitter as you think.

[bigwheel]

So you can't believe there is a hibs fan can look upon things objectively? Maybe they aren't all as bitter as you think.

I wouldn't blame anyone who is bitter about what he and his team done to our club. Your question implies that Anyone who doesn't rate him is somehow bitter.....What does your objective analysis say about his time at Hibs, Brentford, Coventry, Sunderland and in Australia ?? Still a good manager ?

[Famous Fiver]

13 released?

Stubbsy should be down there like a shot. If Butcher has got rid of them there must be some footballing nuggets amongst them.

[Pete]

I wouldn't blame anyone who is bitter about what he and his team done to our club. Your question implies that Anyone who doesn't rate him is somehow bitter.....What does your objective analysis say about his time at Hibs, Brentford, Coventry, Sunderland and in Australia ?? Still a good manager ?

Well your statement implies that anyone who thinks that he can do a job is daft. Was Petrie daft? Were ICT daft? Are the entire board of Newport daft for hiring him in the face of your overwhelming evidence?

I don't really blame anyone for being bitter either but some people are definitely letting that cloud their judgement to an extent. I think what happened at ICT was remarkable and even though it wasn't replicated at hibs I'll find it interesting to see what happens.

[bigwheel]

Well your statement implies that anyone who thinks that he can do a job is daft. Was Petrie daft? Were ICT daft? Are the entire board of Newport daft for hiring him in the face of your overwhelming evidence?

I don't really blame anyone for being bitter either but some people are definitely letting that cloud their judgement to an extent. I think what happened at ICT was remarkable and even though it wasn't replicated at hibs I'll find it interesting to see what happens.

Yes Petrie and co were daft, yes Newport are daft. - he is inept. no question. It can quite easily be argued that Hughes is doing better at Caley with a lesser squad than Butcher did....and yes, anyone who thinks he is a decent manager is wrong - he is not - no bitterness, just calm relaxed fact....murder.....

[Pete]

Yes Petrie and co were daft, yes Newport are daft. - he is inept. no question. It can quite easily be argued that Hughes is doing better at Caley with a lesser squad than Butcher did....and yes, anyone who thinks he is a decent manager is wrong - he is not - no bitterness, just calm relaxed fact....murder.....

Ok then.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think you're being far too reasonable, Peter. The man is an utter walloper and a disgrace, IMO.

[Pete]

I think you're being far too reasonable, Peter. The man is an utter walloper and a disgrace, IMO.

lol I don't disagree with that.

[silverhibee]

I wouldn't blame anyone who is bitter about what he and his team done to our club. Your question implies that Anyone who doesn't rate him is somehow bitter.....What does your objective analysis say about his time at Hibs, Brentford, Coventry, Sunderland and in Australia ?? Still a good manager ?

What does that say about the man who hired him, did he not check his background out before signing him and the two other coaches, 1 Malpas was/is hated in Scottish football for his attitude towards people and how Petrie never new this then he didn't do any checks on him, and then the goalie coach/scout, never played at any decent level in football as a keeper and doubts about who brought some players to ICT, him or a agent.

And Butcher, buying his players fish suppers as a reward for doing well, someone should have told him that was outdated and Domino Pizzas are the way ahead for players to eat after games.

Petrie, what a guy eh.

Sorry couldn't help myself. :greengrin

[silverhibee]

Yes Petrie and co were daft, yes Newport are daft. - he is inept. no question. It can quite easily be argued that Hughes is doing better at Caley with a lesser squad than Butcher did....and yes, anyone who thinks he is a decent manager is wrong - he is not - no bitterness, just calm relaxed fact....murder.....

You don't come across as bitter, no honestly you don't.

[bigwheel]

What does that say about the man who hired him, did he not check his background out before signing him and the two other coaches, 1 Malpas was/is hated in Scottish football for his attitude towards people and how Petrie never new this then he didn't do any checks on him, and then the goalie coach/scout, never played at any decent level in football as a keeper and doubts about who brought some players to ICT, him or a agent.

And Butcher, buying his players fish suppers as a reward for doing well, someone should have told him that was outdated and Domino Pizzas are the way ahead for players to eat after games.

Petrie, what a guy eh.

Sorry couldn't help myself. :greengrin

The summary I heard of that appointment was that there was no formal assessment done. No one else was considered . At a board meeting one of the board (not Petrie) put Butchers name forward as the only candidate to consider - his stock was high at the time - at the board meeting there became a unanimous agreement to reach out and see if a deal could be done - they quickly got a warm response from his Agent .. As a result they fell in love with the idea - did no research or any further analysis - it was a case study of how not to recruit - abysmal

[bigwheel]

You don't come across as bitter, no honestly you don't.

I was simply reacting to a poster seeming to defend Butchers managerial track record - because of one job history. Seemed unbalanced to me

[Hibernia&Alba]

You don't come across as bitter, no honestly you don't.

I'm bitter for what he did to us, Silver. If we spend a few years in the Championship, that **** could have set us back decades, from a position where it was almost impossible to be relegated upon his arrival. We have every right to be bitter.

[Smartie]

The summary I heard of that appointment was that there was no formal assessment done. No one else was considered . At a board meeting one of the board (not Petrie) put Butchers name forward as the only candidate to consider - his stock was high at the time - at the board meeting there became a unanimous agreement to reach out and see if a deal could be done - they quickly got a warm response from his Agent .. As a result they fell in love with the idea - did no research or any further analysis - it was a case study of how not to recruit - abysmal

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, and it would confirm to me that the blame for the utter abomination that was the Butcher era was less about Butcher himself and more about those who thought that he was the man for the job at that time.

[Pete]

The summary I heard of that appointment was that there was no formal assessment done. No one else was considered . At a board meeting one of the board (not Petrie) put Butchers name forward as the only candidate to consider - his stock was high at the time - at the board meeting there became a unanimous agreement to reach out and see if a deal could be done - they quickly got a warm response from his Agent .. As a result they fell in love with the idea - did no research or any further analysis - it was a case study of how not to recruit - abysmal

Putting his record aside...that's a real shocker.

I was always led to believe that a thorough process was undertaken and other managers were considered.

Truth be told, Kenny Shiels would have been my choice at the time because even though he wasn't pulling up the trees Butcher was, the football was a lot better and youth was given a real chance.

Thank **** we have a new way of doing things.

[bigwheel]

Putting his record aside...that's a real shocker.

I was always led to believe that a thorough process was undertaken and other managers were considered.

Truth be told, Kenny Shiels would have been my choice at the time because even though he wasn't pulling up the trees Butcher was, the football was a lot better and youth was given a real chance.

Thank **** we have a new way of doing things.

It was , I believe it's the only time in recent history this happened with us , despite our poor recent history in managerial appointments , we have normally had a pretty robust recruitment process , which involved advice from some of the games most respected figures ...i wouldn't imagine the same mistake will be made again in a hurry ...

[Smartie]

So I've noticed but all you are doing is coming across as rather bitter and can I ask what you think you are achieving by doing this? You are bringing them down unnecessarily

Butcher failed at our club because he came in halfway through a season and couldn't get rid of the players he couldn't manage. He also brought an old-school, authoritarian way of thinking where you did what you were told and the goalie coach doubled up as the scout.

Newport are a smaller club than what we are and his way of doing things can work in the same way that it did at ICT. No expectations at all and a manager being allowed to do his own thing with the players that he chooses.

This mass releasing of players is merely making way for people who buy into his ideas and it shouldn't worry anyone at Newport. I wouldn't swap Stubbs for the world but if we had taken Butcher at the beginning of last season I can bet we wouldn't be in the second teir as we would have had a mass turnover immediately.

There is no such thing as a lucky football manager and the way ICT were playing when he left them was no fluke. They were fitter, stronger, hungrier, more confident and genuinely looked greater than the sum of their parts.

Wrong man who definitely came in at the wrong time for us. However, peope just fit with clubs and situations so there's a chance that Newport could have a perfect match...you never know.

Peter - fwiw I agree with you.

I think we're often the only 2 who ever (I don't want to say stick up for) attempt to bring about some perspective about what happened during Butcher's time at Hibs.

Butcher was diabolical at Hibs, of that there can be no doubt. But I can never understand the mindset that we were in anything other than a diabolical situation when he took over. The previous manager had (by his own admission) lost the dressing room, we were relying on James Collins and Rowan Vine for goals, we had a permanent stop-gap right back, no wingers, 83 crap holding midfielders, Ryan McGiven in the team. It was a mess. We'd already lost twice to the p!shest Hearts team in a generation, scraped easily the most unimpressive Hibs win I've ever seen and been utterly horsed by Malmo. Ok, we were in a reasonable league position but a few lucky wins can flatter your position early in the season. I'm not even blaming Fenlon - he had inherited an even bigger shambles and got to this god awful position with little support himself. He was just the latest incumbent in a succession of disastrous events.

Whoever thought Butcher was the man to take on that situation needs to have a long hard look at themselves. His CV does have a success - ICT - but it is littered with failures. If Butcher were to be a success then certain things would have to happen and that was never going to happen at Hibs under those circumstances. Yes, he handled things badly - especially the January transfer window, but imo he was set up to fail.

[Ronster117]

:top marks
Yes Petrie and co were daft, yes Newport are daft. - he is inept. no question. It can quite easily be argued that Hughes is doing better at Caley with a lesser squad than Butcher did....and yes, anyone who thinks he is a decent manager is wrong - he is not - no bitterness, just calm relaxed fact....murder.....

[Smartie]

The board at Newport must also think along my lines as they must have picked him from dozens of candidates. They are also fully aware of what happened at hibs and ICT.

If he succeeds here will he just have got lucky again? I don't know what will happen and neither do you but I think this will solve an argument or two. He doesn't have the team with him that he had at his last two jobs so we'll see.

The real point was that we need to move on and leave him, and Newport alone.

Absolutely.

He is absolutely, 100%, categorically NOT the man to come in halfway though a season, take a team that is toiling slightly, work with what he has got and steer it into calmer waters. Anyone who gives him an opportunity under such circumstances deserves what is coming to them.

If he is ever to succeed then it is in a situation like the Newport one. Culling players who are never going to buy into his philosophy, getting in those who can/will and going from there.

I hope he's gone by the end of September with his team at the bottom of the league, players on strike etc etc because it would be nice to be able to say 100% that he is simply just a crap manager.

But for people to blame Butcher as much as they do, diverts far too much of the blame for the predicament that - if the truth be told, we are still in - away from where it really should be aimed.

[bigwheel]

Peter - fwiw I agree with you.

I think we're often the only 2 who ever (I don't want to say stick up for) attempt to bring about some perspective about what happened during Butcher's time at Hibs.

Butcher was diabolical at Hibs, of that there can be no doubt. But I can never understand the mindset that we were in anything other than a diabolical situation when he took over. The previous manager had (by his own admission) lost the dressing room, we were relying on James Collins and Rowan Vine for goals, we had a permanent stop-gap right back, no wingers, 83 crap holding midfielders, Ryan McGiven in the team. It was a mess. We'd already lost twice to the p!shest Hearts team in a generation, scraped easily the most unimpressive Hibs win I've ever seen and been utterly horsed by Malmo. Ok, we were in a reasonable league position but a few lucky wins can flatter your position early in the season. I'm not even blaming Fenlon - he had inherited an even bigger shambles and got to this god awful position with little support himself. He was just the latest incumbent in a succession of disastrous events.

Whoever thought Butcher was the man to take on that situation needs to have a long hard look at themselves. His CV does have a success - ICT - but it is littered with failures. If Butcher were to be a success then certain things would have to happen and that was never going to happen at Hibs under those circumstances. Yes, he handled things badly - especially the January transfer window, but imo he was set up to fail.

This debate is getting more interesting [emoji3]. I absolutely agree there was a heritage of poor investment and a major lack of development in our club by the time Fenlon took over . By the way , I've not seen anywhere Fenlon admitting he had lost the dressing room - I've seen him saying he felt it was the right time to stand aside ...

Fenlon was on about 1.6 points per game when he resigned ...There is NO WAY we would have been relegated with him in charge . That's not a case for him staying on , it's simply an assessment based on all his time at Hibs and any other club. He has not had big failures like that in his CV ... Butcher has - he ended about 0.7 points a game

The sense of change that embraced the club this season, should have been ignited about 4/5 years ago ...it's happened when they had no choice - we were relegated - it's easy to react in a big way when something like that happened . Top class leadership would have acted before such an event - if that's part of the point you were making - then I completely agree ...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Peter - fwiw I agree with you.

I think we're often the only 2 who ever (I don't want to say stick up for) attempt to bring about some perspective about what happened during Butcher's time at Hibs.

Butcher was diabolical at Hibs, of that there can be no doubt. But I can never understand the mindset that we were in anything other than a diabolical situation when he took over. The previous manager had (by his own admission) lost the dressing room, we were relying on James Collins and Rowan Vine for goals, we had a permanent stop-gap right back, no wingers, 83 crap holding midfielders, Ryan McGiven in the team. It was a mess. We'd already lost twice to the p!shest Hearts team in a generation, scraped easily the most unimpressive Hibs win I've ever seen and been utterly horsed by Malmo. Ok, we were in a reasonable league position but a few lucky wins can flatter your position early in the season. I'm not even blaming Fenlon - he had inherited an even bigger shambles and got to this god awful position with little support himself. He was just the latest incumbent in a succession of disastrous events.

Whoever thought Butcher was the man to take on that situation needs to have a long hard look at themselves. His CV does have a success - ICT - but it is littered with failures. If Butcher were to be a success then certain things would have to happen and that was never going to happen at Hibs under those circumstances. Yes, he handled things badly - especially the January transfer window, but imo he was set up to fail.

We weren't in that diabolical a situation, Smartie. We weren't in a situation where we should have been relegated from a pish league. We were mid table and should have been safe, only for Butcher to take us into freefall. There was no excuse for taking us as far backwards as he managed, and I can see no mitigation for his disastrous tenure. All he had to do was avoid relegation, and it's unbelievable how he managed to do it.

[silverhibee]

The summary I heard of that appointment was that there was no formal assessment done. No one else was considered . At a board meeting one of the board (not Petrie) put Butchers name forward as the only candidate to consider - his stock was high at the time - at the board meeting there became a unanimous agreement to reach out and see if a deal could be done - they quickly got a warm response from his Agent .. As a result they fell in love with the idea - did no research or any further analysis - it was a case study of how not to recruit - abysmal

Who put Butchers name forward to the board member. :wink: :cb

[bigwheel]

Who put Butchers name forward to the board member. :wink: :cb

his agent ! [emoji6]

[blackpoolhibs]

How anyone can stand up for that ****in dinosaur is beyond me, he along with Malpas got us relegated.

Them two are the reason we are where we are today. :rolleyes:

[Smartie]

This debate is getting more interesting [emoji3]. I absolutely agree there was a heritage of poor investment and a major lack of development in our club by the time Fenlon took over . By the way , I've not seen anywhere Fenlon admitting he had lost the dressing room - I've seen him saying he felt it was the right time to stand aside ...

Fenlon was on about 1.6 points per game when he resigned ...There is NO WAY we would have been relegated with him in charge . That's not a case for him staying on , it's simply an assessment based on all his time at Hibs and any other club. He has not had big failures like that in his CV ... Butcher has - he ended about 0.7 points a game

The sense of change that embraced the club this season, should have been ignited about 4/5 years ago ...it's happened when they had no choice - we were relegated - it's easy to react in a big way when something like that happened . Top class leadership would have acted before such an event - if that's part of the point you were making - then I completely agree ...

I'm pretty sure he said that his mind had been made up after the game at Aberdeen, before the Hearts game in the cup. He'd looked around the dressing room, realised he'd lost them and knew that he was going to go at that point.

I've actually heard rumours that Fenlon walked out on training about 18 months before that (within months of getting the job) and had to be chased and brought back from the car park by Ivan Sproule because things were so bad at that point. I think that was just before a few players were let go and the "January loanees" came in.

I accept we were in what seemed to be a safe position under Fenlon but that season was only going in one direction. And I don't believe that Fenlon would have got any more help in the January window than Butcher got (help that was badly needed).

Maybe the reason Fenlon doesn't have something like that on his cv is because he knows to bail when the writing is on the wall? A bit like Mowbray, a bit like Collins, a bit like Mixu, a bit like Yogi should have…….


It is all easy with hindsight. I've really enjoyed the football this season, for the first time in years, and it hasn't mattered that it's been in the first division. It has honestly felt that the rot has stopped, we've bottomed out and we're starting to progress again. Hopefully we get up at the first time of asking - I believe we will - and it just becomes another wee story in our history, much like the "great adventure" the last time. No harm done and to be honest it gave us a bit of momentum that carried us through a few enjoyable years when we got back up again.

But yes, the changes we've seen this season absolutely should have happened several years before. There were enough of us crying out for it.

[silverhibee]

I'm bitter for what he did to us, Silver. If we spend a few years in the Championship, that **** could have set us back decades, from a position where it was almost impossible to be relegated upon his arrival. We have every right to be bitter.

The man who signed him will be the person who could set us back decades, and he is still at the club, that is our biggest worry with in our club right now.

Petrie should have stepped down from Hibs after we were relegated.

[Smartie]

We weren't in that diabolical a situation, Smartie. We weren't in a situation where we should have been relegated from a pish league. We were mid table and should have been safe, only for Butcher to take us into freefall. There was no excuse for taking us as far backwards as he managed, and I can see no mitigation for his disastrous tenure. All he had to do was avoid relegation, and it's unbelievable how he managed to do it.

I disagree.

It was principally our lack of goals that led to our relegation.

Would Fenlon - having, by his own admission, lost the dressing room have managed to get more goals out of that team than Butcher did? Who was going to provide the ammunition for Collins and Vine? We only had Cairney and Harris out wide (both were injured for months, then recovering for months), no-one who could make a killer pass.

He'd have been given the same "you have to get rid of a few before you get anyone in" instruction in January if he had stayed. Who would Fenlon have managed to ship out? We had nobody that anyone would have wanted to take.

Would Fenlon have relegated Hibs? In my opinion he would although it is a hypothetical argument that can't be won. We were a mess and he'd have been hung out to dry, as Butcher was.

He might have managed some players (like Harris) a bit better and got more out of them. He might have played McPake when he was seemingly back and fit. He might not have got so much trouble (allegedly) from players like KT.

But I still think we would have been in serious, serious trouble that season irrespective of who our manager was.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I disagree.

It was principally our lack of goals that led to our relegation.

Would Fenlon - having, by his own admission, lost the dressing room have managed to get more goals out of that team than Butcher did? Who was going to provide the ammunition for Collins and Vine? We only had Cairney and Harris out wide (both were injured for months, then recovering for months), no-one who could make a killer pass.

He'd have been given the same "you have to get rid of a few before you get anyone in" instruction in January if he had stayed. Who would Fenlon have managed to ship out? We had nobody that anyone would have wanted to take.

Would Fenlon have relegated Hibs? In my opinion he would although it is a hypothetical argument that can't be won. We were a mess and he'd have been hung out to dry, as Butcher was.

He might have managed some players (like Harris) a bit better and got more out of them. He might have played McPake when he was seemingly back and fit. He might not have got so much trouble (allegedly) from players like KT.

But I still think we would have been in serious, serious trouble that season irrespective of who our manager was.

Fair enough, you can disagree, but I think any manager who replaced Fenlon who had an ounce of competence would have kept us up. That imbecile made a bad situation infinitely worse. One requirement - keep us up from a mid table start - and he couldnae dae it. An aberration of a manager.

[Smartie]

Fair enough, you can disagree, but I think any manager who replaced Fenlon who had an ounce of competence would have kept us up. That imbecile made a bad situation infinitely worse. One requirement - keep us up from a mid table start - and he couldnae dae it. An aberration of a manager.

He most certainly did that.

I hate that it seems like I'm sticking up for Butcher. He was an abject failure as a Hibs manager, his tenure was horrible to watch. If we deal in facts and facts alone, he WAS the man who took us down, who took us from a seemingly safe position to a relegation that seemed unfathomable. And the facts are all that count.

All the rest is pure conjecture, what might have happened if Fenlon had stayed, what would have happened had we got someone other than Butcher in? Would they have been backed differently by the board if they had handled things a bit more, let's say sensitively than Butcher did? Would the players have found a bit more for a manager they respected?

Butcher was the wrong choice. But those who made that (apparently ill thought out) appointment deserve to come under the closest scrutiny for that, rather than for all of us just to lambast the man himself.

If we'd have stayed up by the skin of our teeth (with Butcher or with someone else) would we have seen the much-needed sweeping changes we have?

I must admit, I'll follow his progress at Newport with interest and I think it could go either way. To be honest, I'm quite surprised that he's managed to get another gig, although I think his status as a "former England captain" still opens a few doors for him.

[Peevemor]

If we'd have stayed up by the skin of our teeth (with Butcher or with someone else) would we have seen the much-needed sweeping changes we have?
.

The "sweeping change/Dempster" announcement was made on the official site well before we were relegated.

[iwasthere1972]

I recall that Butcher while assistant for the Scotland team refused to shake Maradonna's hand when Argentina came to Hampden for a friendly.

What did Maradonna ever do to Butcher to deserve that kind of behaviour?

[hibees 7062]

The man who signed him will be the person who could set us back decades, and he is still at the club, that is our biggest worry with in our club right now.

Petrie should have stepped down from Hibs after we were relegated.

We should have signed his Chairman . He managed to get money for him

[Winston Ingram]

The guy is a crap manager no matter what you think, his record at every club except ITC proves this, if he had came in earlier than he did he would have had us finishing bottom instead of 11th

His record at ICT wasn't even that good.

Relegated, Promoted, 9th, 5th, 10th, 4th. The 4th was greatly helped by the fact the Huns weren't in the league and the stronger clubs in the league were basket cases(ourselves under Fenlon, Hearts were going tits up and Milne still wasn't bothered about the Sheep). He still finished behind the might of Motherwell and St Johnstone and a point ahead of Ross County

[Winston Ingram]

The board at Newport must also think along my lines as they must have picked him from dozens of candidates. They are also fully aware of what happened at hibs and ICT.

If he succeeds here will he just have got lucky again? I don't know what will happen and neither do you but I think this will solve an argument or two. He doesn't have the team with him that he had at his last two jobs so we'll see.

The real point was that we need to move on and leave him, and Newport alone.

Tbf, if the Board prior to this season thought you were a decent Manager it was odds on that you weren't

[Winston Ingram]

I disagree.

It was principally our lack of goals that led to our relegation.

Would Fenlon - having, by his own admission, lost the dressing room have managed to get more goals out of that team than Butcher did? Who was going to provide the ammunition for Collins and Vine? We only had Cairney and Harris out wide (both were injured for months, then recovering for months), no-one who could make a killer pass.

He'd have been given the same "you have to get rid of a few before you get anyone in" instruction in January if he had stayed. Who would Fenlon have managed to ship out? We had nobody that anyone would have wanted to take.

Would Fenlon have relegated Hibs? In my opinion he would although it is a hypothetical argument that can't be won. We were a mess and he'd have been hung out to dry, as Butcher was.

He might have managed some players (like Harris) a bit better and got more out of them. He might have played McPake when he was seemingly back and fit. He might not have got so much trouble (allegedly) from players like KT.

But I still think we would have been in serious, serious trouble that season irrespective of who our manager was.

I'm sorry, we were 5th when Butcher came in and in no danger of being relegated. We nearly finished top 6

His tactics were diabolical and were worked out pronto. Every one knew that our sole intention was to win throws and corners so that's the last thing our opponents would give us. Everyone had worked us out and Butcher had no plan B to back up his very poor plan A

[Andy74]

I'm sorry, we were 5th when Butcher came in and in no danger of being relegated. We nearly finished top 6

His tactics were diabolical and were worked out pronto. Every one knew that our sole intention was to win throws and corners so that's the last thing our opponents would give us. Everyone had worked us out and Butcher had no plan B to back up his very poor plan A

Yep. Nowhere near relegation.

I've noted this before but people should look at the league position we were in with Fenlon after each game to give a bit of an average after that first season when we were fighting relegation.

It works out between 4th and 5th. We spent far more time, significantly, in top six than bottom.

We expected more of course, rightly or wrongly but that is very different from being a team that could be relegated.

[DH1875]

There is no chance we would have been relegated if Fenlon had seen the season out.

[CockneyRebel]

I recall that Butcher while assistant for the Scotland team refused to shake Maradonna's hand when Argentina came to Hampden for a friendly.

What did Maradonna ever do to Butcher to deserve that kind of behaviour?

You never heard of the "hand of God" ? - great player but a cheating wee scrote.

[iwasthere1972]

You never heard of the "hand of God" ? - great player but a cheating wee scrote.

Whoosh. :wink:

[CockneyRebel]

Whoosh. :wink:

Aaaargh! I seem to have a hook in my top lip.

:rolleyes:

[gorgie greens]

You never heard of the "hand of God" ? - great player but a cheating wee scrote.

Nae cheating there at all , if i was the ref (going back to the old shoot comic)it would have been a goal all day long, mind you i am very anti English,
maybe Butchers problem was that with the other goal that Diego scored during that game is over looked ,dont know why because its up there with wee Archie Gemmils goal as in beating half a team ,with Butcher lying horizontal after Maradona tore him a new one

[Phil MaGlass]

Nae cheating there at all , if i was the ref (going back to the old shoot comic)it would have been a goal all day long, mind you i am very anti English,
maybe Butchers problem was that with the other goal that Diego scored during that game is over looked ,dont know why because its up there with wee Archie Gemmils goal as in beating half a team ,with Butcher lying horizontal after Maradona tore him a new one

Excellent goal, his mazy wee run, hand of god was funny as helle

[gorgie greens]

Excellent goal, his mazy wee run, hand of god was funny as helle
A man after my own heart ,glad am no the only twisted one on here:greengrin