is our problem up front

[eastcoasthibby]

Are our forwards really all that they are made out to be ?
I have been thinking about this for most of the season to be honest, since we lost Farid to injury...he has a range of qualities that the others in my view really don't have and reflecting on things are really important in this league in particular and football more generally now.His has a good touch, holds the ball up well, links play, is good in the air, works defenders who are on the ball, reads the game play, scores goals, has decent pace and leads from the front, it's not a love in with him but if you put these attributes up against our other forwards I think it shows where we lack in being a much better team.

1)I don't think our forwards work hard enough off the ball to close defenders down, therefore we don't defend from the front well enough, giving defences time to play.
2)They don't make enough runs to find space, they stay very central making them easy to mark, don't drag centre halfs away from their comfort zones.
3)Rarely look to get balls in behind defences, we constantly play the game in front of defenders easy meat for the big defenders in this league.
4)The first touch too often needs a second touch and that means that split second is lost that can gain a half yard to make something happen, and also most first touches take them back towards our own goal or close down the space to play in with team mates.
5)They don't work hard enough to get on the end of things in the box, recent weeks with balls flying across the face of goals shows this especially, there seems to be little instictiveness or desire to get on the end of things. (jc has some instictiveness)
6)There is a real lack of pace and I am not talking about lightening quick just decent pace, most defenders seem quicker than our forwards !! (except Boyle)
7) In the air, don't challenge most of the time unless it's a right there for them. In saying this i ask the question about our crossing quality because if we know our forwards aren't prolific this way why oh why do we play in so many high balls ? coaching !!
8) Physicality you don not have to be 6 foot + to be able to put yourself about, be a nuisance, hassle etc.

In summing up i watched the boy Reilly on Saturday for QoS he worked his socks off and made it awkward for our defenders. Stewart from Raith, is another not 6 footers but they work there backsides off, have a decent touch, good movement and pace what makes our players worth more than these guys ? are they better ? Farid made his mark at Falkirk before going down south, he is back and playing with the same style as a lot of these guys that play up front in this league and in the Premier, I think out forwards need to have a look at themselves and develop their game where its needed.
As you may have gathered, I have a view :wink: that while every player has different attributes that our forwards have don't individually have enough of those attributes to give us what we want and need now, to get us where we want to be.
In saying all this the question then is, is the midfield playing the short passing game because of our shortcomings in the forward area ie lack of aerial strength, lack of movement and physical hold up play. How good would our midfield be creatively with quicker forwards with a better touch and movement ? how many more goals would we score with hungrier forwards with a greater desire to get on the end of cross balls ??
Do we need to look down south or abroad ? all the time for players ?

GGTTH

[Geo_1875]

Are our forwards really all that they are made out to be ?
I have been thinking about this for most of the season to be honest, since we lost Farid to injury...he has a range of qualities that the others in my view really don't have and reflecting on things are really important in this league in particular and football more generally now.His has a good touch, holds the ball up well, links play, is good in the air, works defenders who are on the ball, reads the game play, scores goals, has decent pace and leads from the front, it's not a love in with him but if you put these attributes up against our other forwards I think it shows where we lack in being a much better team.

1)I don't think our forwards work hard enough off the ball to close defenders down, therefore we don't defend from the front well enough, giving defences time to play.
2)They don't make enough runs to find space, they stay very central making them easy to mark, don't drag centre halfs away from their comfort zones.
3)Rarely look to get balls in behind defences, we constantly play the game in front of defenders easy meat for the big defenders in this league.
4)The first touch too often needs a second touch and that means that split second is lost that can gain a half yard to make something happen, and also most first touches take them back towards our own goal or close down the space to play in with team mates.
5)They don't work hard enough to get on the end of things in the box, recent weeks with balls flying across the face of goals shows this especially, there seems to be little instictiveness or desire to get on the end of things. (jc has some instictiveness)
6)There is a real lack of pace and I am not talking about lightening quick just decent pace, most defenders seem quicker than our forwards !! (except Boyle)
7) In the air, don't challenge most of the time unless it's a right there for them. In saying this i ask the question about our crossing quality because if we know our forwards aren't prolific this way why oh why do we play in so many high balls ? coaching !!
8) Physicality you don not have to be 6 foot + to be able to put yourself about, be a nuisance, hassle etc.

In summing up i watched the boy Reilly on Saturday for QoS he worked his socks off and made it awkward for our defenders. Stewart from Raith, is another not 6 footers but they work there backsides off, have a decent touch, good movement and pace what makes our players worth more than these guys ? are they better ? Farid made his mark at Falkirk before going down south, he is back and playing with the same style as a lot of these guys that play up front in this league and in the Premier, I think out forwards need to have a look at themselves and develop their game where its needed.
As you may have gathered, I have a view :wink: that while every player has different attributes that our forwards have don't individually have enough of those attributes to give us what we want and need now, to get us where we want to be.
In saying all this the question then is, is the midfield playing the short passing game because of our shortcomings in the forward area ie lack of aerial strength, lack of movement and physical hold up play. How good would our midfield be creatively with quicker forwards with a better touch and movement ? how many more goals would we score with hungrier forwards with a greater desire to get on the end of cross balls ??
Do we need to look down south or abroad ? all the time for players ?

GGTTH

The lack of pace is obvious and makes us easy to defend against.

[AlbertK86]

Yep

If we were clinical up front we would be up bedside them with the amount of chances we have created this season

That is the big difference between them and us

We are every bit as good as them but they take a much higher percentage of their chances

[andrew70]

Yep

If we were clinical up front we would be up bedside them with the amount of chances we have created this season

That is the big difference between them and us

We are every bit as good as them but they take a much higher percentage of their chances

They score a lot of goals through sheer determination to do so. Nicholson's and Walker's against us etc - they weren't even half chances but the players are willing to take the risk and hammer it in to the net. We don't do that, we consistently try to walk it in to the net.

We are a better team than them, we just don't believe it ourselves. A problem that has long ran through the club.

The confidence that Nicholson, Walker showed in taking on these efforts has never been something you could attribute to Hibs players.

I've loved watching us at times this season but boy do I wish the players knew how good they could be. It's easy to pass a ball sideaways and in doing so it's keeping possession but that stat is false if you don't do anything with it.

Basically our players are passing the buck and instead of having the balls to take on a shot they'll pass it to their teammate.

I know for a fact though that Cummings at one point in the season (January) was in the top ten of strikers (in the world), aged under 20, for the amount of goals he had scored.

His goals have dried up slightly since then so unsure as to his current standings.

Now I am not suggesting our strikers are poor or anything like that but the whole team has suffered from a severe lack of confidence and I know there is a general malaise around the club from the supporters but these players need us to support them at every turn to help them be the best they can be and realise our ambitions of playing in the Premier League again.

[Smartie]

A while back somebody mentioned that Fenlon's biggest failure was that he never managed to link up the midfield and the strikers, and interesting point and one that I agree with.

I think we're looking at something similar at the moment, where we are struggling to create chances that our strikers are going to take. Loads of possession, sideways passing and lots of probing but few clear-cut chances that you would expect our strikers to take (Raith game excepted - even then the best chances fell to a full-back).

It is hard to see how we are going to score enough goals in the big games and this is not a criticism of any individual or the quality of individuals but more a comment on the blend of players. Who is going to get their head on the end of a cross? Who is going to get in behind a defence? Who is going to score from 25 yards? We get the odd goal from set-pieces but that is about it. Opposition players are now pressing the players who are likely to make a killer pass for us very hard and knocking them off their game (as is very much their right).

Malonga's a tidy player and good at holding the ball up and bringing other players into the game, Cummings has a good return this season but has looked off the boil since he took a knock in (I think) the Livingston game. The jury is out (being kind) on Dje-Dje so far.

I honestly think the key lies with some of our squad players and that we need to make some very tough decisions regarding who we drop. Fyvie, McGeoch and Allan are too similar. We are toiling to find a forward partnership that works.

Danny Handling has many faults but he picks up brilliant positions off the front 2, plays clever little passes and attempts to get beyond the front 2. Liam Craig has had some magnificent performances this season and often in our biggest games (the early season games at Ibrox and also the The Rangers game at Christmas). He played a cracking ball through for Cummings in our win against Livingston. Our form started to turn at about the start of November and Handling and Craig were regulars around that time (one of our best performances of the season was at Dumbarton and they were both outstanding that day). They are not our best players but our team has looked better with them in it than when they are not in it.

Farid could turn out to be our most important player and his injury was a disaster. At Hibs I think that Chris Killen has been the only player I've seen who has been truly comfortable playing up front on his own and we have struggled over the past few years trying to fit players up there who clearly couldn't do it. Farid may well be able to do it, which may prove useful as we try to get control of a game where teams pack their defence and press us. Was the fashion for 1 up front not why the 3/5 at the back went out of fashion? He can score out of nothing, he can hold it up, he can get his head on a cross, he can give defenders a tough time.

Boyle may also be significant. His finishing has been woeful, that cannot be denied. But he has at times caused mayhem when he has played and his pace really gives teams something different to think about. He would give the carthorse Lee McCulloch nightmares. He offers a threat in behind teams that nobody else does, and his pace may pin teams back deeper out of fear of him getting in behind creating more space for our midfielders to create. He was also handy out wide against Livingston, he would have hard several assists if either of our strikers had bothered their backsides getting into the box.

I also think we need to be prepared to shake up the shape of the team during games, sometimes early in games in order to counteract tactical moves by opposition teams.

[Smartie]

They score a lot of goals through sheer determination to do so. Nicholson's and Walker's against us etc - they weren't even half chances but the players are willing to take the risk and hammer it in to the net. We don't do that, we consistently try to walk it in to the net.

We are a better team than them, we just don't believe it ourselves. A problem that has long ran through the club.

The confidence that Nicholson, Walker showed in taking on these efforts has never been something you could attribute to Hibs players.

I've loved watching us at times this season but boy do I wish the players knew how good they could be. It's easy to pass a ball sideaways and in doing so it's keeping possession but that stat is false if you don't do anything with it.

Basically our players are passing the buck and instead of having the balls to take on a shot they'll pass it to their teammate.

I know for a fact though that Cummings at one point in the season (January) was in the top ten of strikers (in the world), aged under 20, for the amount of goals he had scored.

His goals have dried up slightly since then so unsure as to his current standings.

Now I am not suggesting our strikers are poor or anything like that but the whole team has suffered from a severe lack of confidence and I know there is a general malaise around the club from the supporters but these players need us to support them at every turn to help them be the best they can be and realise our ambitions of playing in the Premier League again.

There was nothing in the early derby at Tynecastle. It was a tale of 2 penalties and 2 wonder goals only they scored their penalty.

Farid showed no shortage of confidence when he scored his goal there. His injury has cost us dear.

It's not happening for us right now and the confidence has evaporated of late but we have done more right than wrong this season and it is harsh on our players to say that they don't back themselves full stop.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We don't have much pace, but in most of our games its not a big factor because most teams defend the edge of their box in numbers, so there isn't much space to run in to anyway.

Our biggest problem is that we don't shoot enough from outside the box and when we do we rarely test the keeper. Add to that the fact that none of our forwards seem capable of getting onto fast low balls across the box or have the ability to feed off scraps and its no surprise we don't take more of our chances.

The more I think about it the more I think Scott McDonald might have been just the man to solve the problem. Motherwell's gain I suppose.

[andrew70]

There was nothing in the early derby at Tynecastle. It was a tale of 2 penalties and 2 wonder goals only they scored their penalty.

Farid showed no shortage of confidence when he scored his goal there. His injury has cost us dear.

It's not happening for us right now and the confidence has evaporated of late but we have done more right than wrong this season and it is harsh on our players to say that they don't back themselves full stop.

They don't back themselves enough though because if they did we'd be winning the league. The confidence that was running through the team started to drain slightly after Raith Rovers got a point in the dying seconds at Easter Road on the last day in January.

Our performances since then have been lethargic, slow and it is coming to a head now.

I've no doubt that this group of players can achieve promotion and a cup final spot but only if they back themselves to do just that.

I don't buy into this player being poor or that player being poor but ultimately if they don't achieve these aims then they can only look at themselves.

Also we need to find the right formula once again and stick with it. The January buys were great but I feel they may have led to Stubbs making more changes - personnel and tactics - than was required. We need a settled team again and yes injuries, suspensions play their part but we aren't good enough to continually make changes for the sake of it.

All that does is disrupt the fluency of the team.

Confidence and stability is key more than anything else. They don't become bad players overnight but they are all being more hesitant on the ball, taking one touch too many and have constantly elected to pass rather than shoot.

[Smartie]

They don't back themselves enough though because if they did we'd be winning the league. The confidence that was running through the team started to drain slightly after Raith Rovers got a point in the dying seconds at Easter Road on the last day in January.

Our performances since then have been lethargic, slow and it is coming to a head now.

I've no doubt that this group of players can achieve promotion and a cup final spot but only if they back themselves to do just that.

I don't buy into this player being poor or that player being poor but ultimately if they don't achieve these aims then they can only look at themselves.

Also we need to find the right formula once again and stick with it. The January buys were great but I feel they may have led to Stubbs making more changes - personnel and tactics - than was required. We need a settled team again and yes injuries, suspensions play their part but we aren't good enough to continually make changes for the sake of it.

All that does is disrupt the fluency of the team.

Confidence and stability is key more than anything else. They don't become bad players overnight but they are all being more hesitant on the ball, taking one touch too many and have constantly elected to pass rather than shoot.

All very fair points.

I accept that they need to back themselves more. I think they do have it in them and it may just need a stroke of good fortune to get things going for us again.

[Bishop Hibee]

As highlighted lack of pace is an issue especially as we have a narrow midfield. I do think Farud can create chances for himself in a way our other strikers can't though.

I believe Stubbs recognises this and tried to get pace and width with Kennedy and Boyle. Unfortunately neither had/has the quality in my opinion.

[Geo_1875]

As highlighted lack of pace is an issue especially as we have a narrow midfield. I do think Farud can create chances for himself in a way our other strikers can't though.

I believe Stubbs recognises this and tried to get pace and width with Kennedy and Boyle. Unfortunately neither had/has the quality in my opinion.

I think Boyle can offer the pace we need but would you drop a midfielder to play him?

[SaulGoodman]

I think we have too many of the same kind of striker. Cummings and Malonga can't play with each other. I think Dje Dje and Boyle are more wingers than natural strikers too.

Our front pairing midweek has to be Farid and then Cummings/Malonga. You could really see the difference in Malongas play when Farid came on.

[J-C]

Only striker at the club with natural instict for goal is Alagui and to a lesser extent Cummings as he's still young and raw, apart from them we have wide attacking midfielders turned strikers. Malonga did go through a wee purple patch scoring wise but has now dropped off drastically and showing his true colours, Djedje just hasn't really settled but is a wide man with great pace the same as Boyle and Cummings is very inconsistant, never knowing which one will turn up week on week.

I watched Murray from Crystal Palace last night and he was absolutely superb, challenged every ball, chased and harried and never gave the defender a moments peace, Farid to a decent extent does this, so too Cummings but Malonga was a disgrace the way he strolled around on saturday.

Keetings at Hearts is the type of player we should've gone for in the summer and not Malonga, Keetings works his socks off from the front and has grabbed a few goals into the bargain.

Our shooting from strikers to the midfield has also been shocking this year, no one seems willing to take one on and when they do it's pretty poor, I noticed them doing some shooting practice on saturday and TBH they were all honking.

[J-C]

I think Boyle can offer the pace we need but would you drop a midfielder to play him?


Drop Malonga, people get too het up about playing with 2 strikers, Chelsea/Arsenal/Liverpool etc all seem to do ok with one up top, it's who's backing up and the service they get which determines if we score goals, our supply has cut off since teams sussed out how to stop our wingbacks playing, so we need to look at getting width and pace from other areas.

[Iain G]

I dont think the problem is fully down to our forwards, I think the way we have been playing recently with the calm measured build up from midfield to front doesnt suit all of our forwards. A quicker transition and earlier balls into DjeDje, Boyle and Malonga before the opposition has had a chabce to get behind the ball would allow these players to use their skills and pace to a greater degree and be more damaging to the opposition.

We need to be able to mix up and vary our passing to beat advantage.

[andrew70]

Only striker at the club with natural instict for goal is Alagui and to a lesser extent Cummings as he's still young and raw, apart from them we have wide attacking midfielders turned strikers. Malonga did go through a wee purple patch scoring wise but has now dropped off drastically and showing his true colours, Djedje just hasn't really settled but is a wide man with great pace the same as Boyle and Cummings is very inconsistant, never knowing which one will turn up week on week.

I watched Murray from Crystal Palace last night and he was absolutely superb, challenged every ball, chased and harried and never gave the defender a moments peace, Farid to a decent extent does this, so too Cummings but Malonga was a disgrace the way he strolled around on saturday.

Keetings at Hearts is the type of player we should've gone for in the summer and not Malonga, Keetings works his socks off from the front and has grabbed a few goals into the bargain.

Our shooting from strikers to the midfield has also been shocking this year, no one seems willing to take one on and when they do it's pretty poor, I noticed them doing some shooting practice on saturday and TBH they were all honking.

I agree to an extent but to say we should have gone for Keatings instead of Malonga is so far off the mark. I will never tire of watching a player of Malonga's quality when he is on his game.

I don't know what is wrong with him just now but he's a cracking player who has a great first touch and up til lately his instincts in front of goal have been great.

As I say agree with the merits of what you are saying but Keatings is extremely limited in his ability, Malonga on the other hand is a creative, crafty, skilfull individual. A player of that calibre you don't normally see in the Scottish game and yes that is the league we play in but that doesn't mean you should take a workaholic instead of a player of true class.

We need to see goals again then his flicks and tricks will come once more but he's a great player who at the moment is struggling.

[J-C]

I agree to an extent but to say we should have gone for Keatings instead of Malonga is so far off the mark. I will never tire of watching a player of Malonga's quality when he is on his game.

I don't know what is wrong with him just now but he's a cracking player who has a great first touch and up til lately his instincts in front of goal have been great.

As I say agree with the merits of what you are saying but Keatings is extremely limited in his ability, Malonga on the other hand is a creative, crafty, skilfull individual. A player of that calibre you don't normally see in the Scottish game and yes that is the league we play in but that doesn't mean you should take a workaholic instead of a player of true class.

We need to see goals again then his flicks and tricks will come once more but he's a great player who at the moment is struggling.

When he can be arsed, at this point in the season we can't afford luxury players and the last 3 games it's been like playing with a man down.

When I said Keetings I was talking more as a general type rather than him in particular, graft sometimes is more needed than guille in this league.

[andrew70]

When he can be arsed, at this point in the season we can't afford luxury players and the last 3 games it's been like playing with a man down.

When I said Keetings I was talking more as a general type rather than him in particular, graft sometimes is more needed than guille in this league.

Fair enough, would still prefer Malonga personally but I can understand where you are coming from.

Having said that I agree that we definitely can't afford luxury players or anyone playing below their best so he needs to get his finger out.

I also worry that a lot of weight is being placed upon El Alagui's shoulders before he is properly fully fit.

[Smartie]

Fair enough, would still prefer Malonga personally but I can understand where you are coming from.

Having said that I agree that we definitely can't afford luxury players or anyone playing below their best so he needs to get his finger out.

I also worry that a lot of weight is being placed upon El Alagui's shoulders before he is properly fully fit.


That weight wouldn't exist if any of the other strikers were doing the business.

It was nice to think that El Alagui could be eased gently back in and it looked like that would be possible a few months ago.

I would trust our medical staff not to take any silly medical risks with him but we need to stop being too soft on our players and start demanding more of them. If he is fit he should be expected to make a contribution.

To be fair to him, I don't get the feeling that he is a shirker in any way and suspect that he is the type that might thrive under pressure.

[Zazu62]

I remember being at ibrox when we won 3-1 earlier on in the season and thought Malonga was outstanding that night, his touch, link up play. What's happened?

[J-C]

I remember being at ibrox when we won 3-1 earlier on in the season and thought Malonga was outstanding that night, his touch, link up play. What's happened?


Seems when these players go to the African cup, they seem to take ages to get back to norm or some don't even do that, English prem teams have struggled with this for quite a while now, we've never had anyone at that level before so it's all new to us.

[Smartie]

Seems when these players go to the African cup, they seem to take ages to get back to norm or some don't even do that, English prem teams have struggled with this for quite a while now, we've never had anyone at that level before so it's all new to us.

Was Bamba not like a different player when he came back?

Lethargic and disinterested whereas he was playing well before he went.

I think there could be something in this. They'll be rubbing shoulders with some big names and good players and possibly think they don't need to try that hard on their return.

[J-C]

Was Bamba not like a different player when he came back?

Lethargic and disinterested whereas he was playing well before he went.

I think there could be something in this. They'll be rubbing shoulders with some big names and good players and possibly think they don't need to try that hard on their return.


Think that was the case with Bamba too :agree:

[ancient hibee]

When you have a midfield that makes no attempt to get beyond your front men goals will be hard to come by.Good teams have midfields that get into the box take defenders away from strikers and give them room to strike.If as a defence all you have to do is mark the strikers and wait for the pass to come it makes the game easy for them.

[B.H.F.C]

Problems certainly don't just lie up front.

We've not kept enough clean sheets despite the poor standard we are up against a lot of the time. Last week at Raith was a prime example. They had two meaningful attacks and it resulted in two goals.

Main gripe I have with our midfield is that they haven't scored enough goals. McGeouch and Allan have both scored one goal from open play. With the ability they have they should be contributing a lot more.

The work rate of the front players in the last few weeks has been non existent. Malonga gets a lot of criticism on that front but Cummings was no better on Saturday. Never any real attempt to put their centre halves under any pressure. The 'closing down' was just a token gesture. At least Farid showed a bit appetite when he came on. I just hope we can get him in decent condition for the playoffs.

[Unseen work]

Iv said it before, I don't think allan should be playing behind the front 2.

I think he is a fantastic player but IMO he comes far too deep to collect the ball and influence it, leaving a big gap between midfield and the strikers with no one inbetween to link the play.

He most most successful on the left or right of the diamond IMO.

Handling even though he got stick done the role very well as he stayed higher kept it simple and made gaps in the opposition defence, I would also like to see Stanton play there or even mcgeouch as he is a direct runner and would get in behind

Robertson
Allan. Fyvie
Mcgeouch

[Zazu62]

Problems certainly don't just lie up front.

We've not kept enough clean sheets despite the poor standard we are up against a lot of the time. Last week at Raith was a prime example. They had two meaningful attacks and it resulted in two goals.

Main gripe I have with our midfield is that they haven't scored enough goals. McGeouch and Allan have both scored one goal from open play. With the ability they have they should be contributing a lot more.

The work rate of the front players in the last few weeks has been non existent. Malonga gets a lot of criticism on that front but Cummings was no better on Saturday. Never any real attempt to put their centre halves under any pressure. The 'closing down' was just a token gesture. At least Farid showed a bit appetite when he came on. I just hope we can get him in decent condition for the playoffs.

1 goal each from Allan and Mcgeouch is pretty disappointing especially in this league