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H18 SFR
06-04-2015, 08:52 AM
Since this time last year, have we actually improved?

A comment by my son has just made me ask myself that very question. My initial response was of course we have, overwhelmingly have. Then I read posts on here, posts that show we have only consistently taken points off the part time teams with the exception of Rangers who were absolutely rotten.

The question is, in reality, have we actually greatly improved or is progress being made at a rate which is not acceptable? I'm unsure.

Just Alf
06-04-2015, 08:58 AM
Have we improved? - Yes

Have we improved enough? - No

Leithenhibby
06-04-2015, 09:11 AM
Since this time last year, have we actually improved?

A comment by my son has just made me ask myself that very question. My initial response was of course we have, overwhelmingly have. Then I read posts on here, posts that show we have only consistently taken points off the part time teams with the exception of Rangers who were absolutely rotten.

The question is, in reality, have we actually greatly improved or is progress being made at a rate which is not acceptable? I'm unsure.

We have matched and taken points off Hearts!.. The progress being made may not be as fast as we would like (some demand) but we are most definitely heading in the right direction. :agree:

We all knew (if we are being honest) that we would finish (as it stands) 3rd or 4th. I also think that everyone thought that, The Rangers would win the league.

Answering your question, absolutely yes. The whole set up at our club has changed for the better, and I mean, everything :wink:

B.H.F.C
06-04-2015, 09:11 AM
What we had at this time last year would be doing considerably worse than what we have now.

However, we've failed to win half our league games against some poor sides.

Must do better.

cabbageandribs1875
06-04-2015, 09:17 AM
lets compare this seasons team to last, no doubt playing prettier football this season, but against the likes of Alloa/Dumbarton/Livingston, if we cant beat teams like Falkirk/Q.o.S/Raith Rovers at ER then why do most/some people reckon we could compete with the likes of Ross co, st.mirren/Partick thistle in the big boys league...imo of course :greengrin

matty_f
06-04-2015, 09:22 AM
We have definitely improved imho.

3 defeats in a row has justifiably got people asking questions but we went from December to March undefeated, winning the majority of games and looking like a good side.

I don't think we have almost of a sudden become a bad team, and I don't think that there is much doubt that we have improved. We could and probably should be doing better still, so there is room for improvement but we are a different side to the one that failed so badly last season.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 09:25 AM
Saturday was my first game since relegation and I can categorically say no. Our opposition is inferior to that what we faced in the Premier League and we still can't dominate them. Last season we were cycling uphill and struggling, this season we're on the downhill stretch and travelling faster but it's still the same bike, only the terrain has changed.

Leithenhibby
06-04-2015, 09:26 AM
lets compare this seasons team to last, no doubt playing prettier football this season, but against the likes of Alloa/Dumbarton/Livingston, if we cant beat teams like Falkirk/Q.o.S/Raith Rovers at ER then why do most/some people reckon we could compete with the likes of Ross co, st.mirren/Partick thistle in the big boys league...imo of course :greengrin

I have followed my beloved club for 45 years and those teams have always given us a run for our money. I think you are doing them a disservice to be honest. IMO

Del Boy
06-04-2015, 09:30 AM
Definitely improved. We have better footballers now, not brilliant but better squad than last year. But still too soft.

Expecting Rain
06-04-2015, 09:30 AM
We`ve improved but are still almost half a team short of a very good standard, a goalkeeper, left back/wing back, a better balance in the centre back position and another forward would speed the recovery.

Pretty Boy
06-04-2015, 09:32 AM
We have definitely improved on the horror show that was the 'Butcher era'.

There's still plenty room for further improvement though and if we fail to earn promotion this season, by no means a certainty depsite the last 3 games, then we have to get off to a flyer next year.

Leithenhibby
06-04-2015, 09:39 AM
We have definitely improved on the horror show that was the 'Butcher era'.

There's still plenty room for further improvement though and if we fail to earn promotion this season, by no means a certainty depsite the last 3 games, then we have to get off to a flyer next year.

:agree:

We were nowhere near ready this season, looking back to the summer, we had 14 players and, Alan Stubbs (and team) had 3 weeks to get a team sorted for the KO. Always going to struggle in that position :wink:

Ozyhibby
06-04-2015, 09:40 AM
We have definitely improved imho.

3 defeats in a row has justifiably got people asking questions but we went from December to March undefeated, winning the majority of games and looking like a good side.

I don't think we have almost of a sudden become a bad team, and I don't think that there is much doubt that we have improved. We could and probably should be doing better still, so there is room for improvement but we are a different side to the one that failed so badly last season.

When you consider Falkirk, Queen of the South and Raith combined have a smaller playing budget than us then you have to say we are doing extremely poorly.
Given the facilities, the sports scientists, nutritionists and large coaching staff we have compared to these teams and it becomes clear that we are failing badly.
Yes, it's a different style of football to Butchers but it is no more successful.
We did have a decent run of beating the part time teams it that should be a given.
When people say we have improved they generally list inputs like the new coaching set up, scouting network, PR work by Leeann etc. or they parrot lines taken by the club like we are the fittest team in the league. This is a trick used by politicians when they list things they are spending (your) money on. Usually little of it has any benefit to you.
If we measure outputs, actual results on the pitch, then I would say we are about the same level as last season and probably not as good as under Fenlon.
There is still time to turn it around and make it the best season ever but time is running out.

lord bunberry
06-04-2015, 09:42 AM
Saturday was my first game since relegation and I can categorically say no. Our opposition is inferior to that what we faced in the Premier League and we still can't dominate them. Last season we were cycling uphill and struggling, this season we're on the downhill stretch and travelling faster but it's still the same bike, only the terrain has changed.
You can't assess our overall improvement(or lack of) from watching 1 game.

Leithenhibby
06-04-2015, 09:46 AM
When you consider Falkirk, Queen of the South and Raith combined have a smaller playing budget than us then you have to say we are doing extremely poorly.
Given the facilities, the sports scientists, nutritionists and large coaching staff we have compared to these teams and it becomes clear that we are failing badly.
Yes, it's a different style of football to Butchers but it is no more successful.
We did have a decent run of beating the part time teams it that should be a given.
When people say we have improved they generally list inputs like the new coaching set up, scouting network, PR work by Leeann etc. or they parrot lines taken by the club like we are the fittest team in the league. This is a trick used by politicians when they list things they are spending (your) money on. Usually little of it has any benefit to you.
If we measure outputs, actual results on the pitch, then I would say we are about the same level as last season and probably not as good as under Fenlon.
There is still time to turn it around and make it the best season ever but time is running out.

The set up has got to be given time to kick in, IMO. We had a squad in the summer (3 weeks to ko) that didn't even resemble a team........... This will take time, granted it's not what we want to hear but that's just how it's gonna be. :wink:

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 09:48 AM
You can't assess our overall improvement(or lack of) from watching 1 game.


So Saturday was just a one off?

Ozyhibby
06-04-2015, 09:50 AM
The set up has got to be given time to kick in, IMO. We had a squad in the summer (3 weeks to ko) that didn't even resemble a team........... This will take time, granted it's not what we want to hear but that's just how it's gonna be. :wink:

It's always jam tomorrow with Hibs. It's not even the club who say it now, the fans say it for them.

GreenArmy1875
06-04-2015, 09:51 AM
I think we have some great players at the club but i really think the way we play football does not suit us. We need a few pacy wingers in the summer hopefully with Harris returning with some confidence in form but need another 2 more IMO. We play slowly and by the time we get forward other teams have everyone back. With no pace up top its into feet all the time and not penetrating enough.

Penicuik Hibee
06-04-2015, 09:53 AM
We are so much better to watch this year and are a different team to what we endured in the butcher era. However, despite dominating many games, we continue to give away soft goals and recently have stopped creating opportunities. Against Rangers and Queen of the South we looked like we could have played all day and not scored.

Not sure what has changed, maybe teams have worked us out that if you stop the full backs getting forward we lack width as Malonga is struggling (and that's being polite) and Cummings is a finisher and needs chances to be created in the box.

lets hope we get back to winning ways on Wednesday but suddenly I am a worried Hibee

scoopyboy
06-04-2015, 10:00 AM
So Saturday was just a one off?

You should know, you stated categorically after one game.

The Leith Dutch
06-04-2015, 10:02 AM
Given how utterly dire we were under Butcher you'd have to say we've improved.

We still lack a plan B for when things don't go our way and we're short of work rate at times.
Could do with some depth - I think when Gray is out or Allan has an off day it's a pretty serious drop in form.

There's also the thing that's been tough for us to find for years - a proper winners mentality.

I said to a mate the other night that if someone had said at the start of the season that we'd be W3 L1 against the rangers and D2 L1 against the yams we'd have been thinking we'd win the league. It's the games where we've dropped off against the "lesser" teams. Hate to admit it but the yams have been at the races for every game :(

lord bunberry
06-04-2015, 10:02 AM
So Saturday was just a one off?
Maybe not a one off, but we have turned in some really good performances this season. 3 weeks ago I was very confident we would finish 2nd a get promoted. We have improved from last season imo.

Leithenhibby
06-04-2015, 10:03 AM
It's always jam tomorrow with Hibs. It's not even the club who say it now, the fans say it for them.

I agree with many points you have made, but we can't get away from the fact that our club were starting a fresh with 3 weeks prep. Most, if not all clubs around us had a settled team and set up within their club. We had our guts ripped out so we could move forward.

I want it now, but I also know that's no gonna happen :wink:

Radium
06-04-2015, 10:07 AM
Team against Hamilton
Williams
Maybury. Nelson. McGivern. Stevenson
Haynes. Craig. Robertson. Stanton.
Heffernan. Cummings.

I think we have improved but like many am frustrated that we have not taken our chances in games.

Keith_M
06-04-2015, 10:08 AM
You can't assess our overall improvement(or lack of) from watching 1 game.


:agree:


Imagine if the only game you'd seen all season was the day we walked all over Rangers 4-0 at home.

H18 SFR
06-04-2015, 10:17 AM
:agree:


Imagine if the only game you'd seen all season was the day we walked all over Rangers 4-0 at home.

I'm aware that this might not source much agreement on the forum, at the time, in my mind the results against Rangers were spectacular. However, I'm not so sure now, I think the reality was that they were playing very, very, very poorly. I'm tempted to say that those results contribute to a false economy so to speak.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 10:18 AM
You should know, you stated categorically after one game.

Aye it confirmed for me what others have posted on here and media reports. That and the games I've watched on telly.

The opposition are ***** and we should be walking all over teams in this league. If we hadn't went down last season we'd have done it this year.

Billychaotic182
06-04-2015, 10:21 AM
Oxley better than Williams - I don't think so
Gray better than McGivern - 10000% better
Fontaine better than McPake - yes
Allan better than Thompson - the Thompson of last year yes
McGeouch better than Cairney - yes
Robertson better than Robertson of last year - night and day!
Malonga better than Collins - again yes
El Alagui better than Heff - yes again

So if you ask me yes we have improved and yes sometimes results don't go our way but don't just look at the score look at the game. Sometimes we play well and lose. Doesn't make the players bad. That game against raith we should have put 10 past them. When we stop creating chances then it's time to worry.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 10:22 AM
:agree:


Imagine if the only game you'd seen all season was the day we walked all over Rangers 4-0 at home.

Watched it on telly Keith and rangers were dire, they made us look like world beaters. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the drubbing we gave them you can't forget just how crap they were.

JimBHibees
06-04-2015, 10:25 AM
When you consider Falkirk, Queen of the South and Raith combined have a smaller playing budget than us then you have to say we are doing extremely poorly.
Given the facilities, the sports scientists, nutritionists and large coaching staff we have compared to these teams and it becomes clear that we are failing badly.
Yes, it's a different style of football to Butchers but it is no more successful.
We did have a decent run of beating the part time teams it that should be a given.
When people say we have improved they generally list inputs like the new coaching set up, scouting network, PR work by Leeann etc. or they parrot lines taken by the club like we are the fittest team in the league. This is a trick used by politicians when they list things they are spending (your) money on. Usually little of it has any benefit to you.
If we measure outputs, actual results on the pitch, then I would say we are about the same level as last season and probably not as good as under Fenlon.
There is still time to turn it around and make it the best season ever but time is running out.

The only part time teams are Cowdenbeath. Alloa and Dumbarton.

To say the football is no more successful is laughable. Night and day style wise and results wise v Butcher.

Has the club ever said we are the fittest team in the league as can remember a presentation at East mains where the manager outlined he couldn't believe how unfit the players were when he arrived and that it wouldn't be until the next preseason where the real benefits could be realised.

hibs0666
06-04-2015, 10:27 AM
Watched it on telly Keith and rangers were dire, they made us look like world beaters. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the drubbing we gave them you can't forget just how crap they were.

is that the team that just pumped the yams?

Steve20
06-04-2015, 10:29 AM
We have improved but only slightly. Results have been very poor.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 10:29 AM
is that the team that just pumped the yams?

No and not the same one that gubbed us last week.

JimBHibees
06-04-2015, 10:30 AM
It's always jam tomorrow with Hibs. It's not even the club who say it now, the fans say it for them.

It is a long term plan things don't just change overnight. The whole club to me is much more professional however as AS has said there will be blips. To me we have had a little turn of luck the wrong way with injuries to our forwards and also Gray and now Dylan. Hopefully that changes however no point going from famine to feast over a couple of results.

J-C
06-04-2015, 10:45 AM
When you consider Falkirk, Queen of the South and Raith combined have a smaller playing budget than us then you have to say we are doing extremely poorly.
Given the facilities, the sports scientists, nutritionists and large coaching staff we have compared to these teams and it becomes clear that we are failing badly.
Yes, it's a different style of football to Butchers but it is no more successful.
We did have a decent run of beating the part time teams it that should be a given.
When people say we have improved they generally list inputs like the new coaching set up, scouting network, PR work by Leeann etc. or they parrot lines taken by the club like we are the fittest team in the league. This is a trick used by politicians when they list things they are spending (your) money on. Usually little of it has any benefit to you.
If we measure outputs, actual results on the pitch, then I would say we are about the same level as last season and probably not as good as under Fenlon.
There is still time to turn it around and make it the best season ever but time is running out.

I honestly get really peed of at the negativity you spout on here at times, do you not feel it yourself.

To compare this team to Butcher's is at best laughable, more win ratio, better squad harmony, better vibes coming from the club in general and the club starting to move in the right direction with fan represenation on the board etc.

You also mention Fenlon and his record, while some have green tinted glasses, you have Irish green tinted ones by even saying we are the same level as Fenlon and his negative non football.

We are better but unfortunately not better enough, we expected top 4 at the start of the season, got very lucky that Rangers had 2 of the worst managers in their history and have seen some lovely passing football from Hibs that I've not seen from a Hibs team since Mowbray. Stubbs is still young and still learning and has made mistakes, hopefully he learns from these mistakes and makes us even better, we've had a blip yes but we are in a much better position compared to last season and if you cannot see this, then I feel sorry for you.

O'Rourke3
06-04-2015, 11:01 AM
We have improved, what we are not is the finished article. If we were we'd have the whole squad under contract and not or short or loan deals. The staff have done as well if not better that we expected with the players available and we are still involved in two competitions. Saturday was the worst performance I've seen from us this year but it was still better than many of those under TB. We kept the ball and tried to make things happen. The fact the opposition were trying very hard to beat us with a lot more pace and energy meant we looked very poor.
Compare what we've done to someone of my age trying to get fit and lose weight. You are doing it every day and making small improvements but it's 6 months down the line before your work mates say things like - "Have you been working out?" "Are you losing weight?" Rebuilding takes time and finally we seem to be doing that in a more sustainable way than some of the previous regimes.

Salisbury Hibby
06-04-2015, 11:35 AM
We have improved a bit but I think that the standard of the bottom 5 in the premiership and top 5 of the championship is about the same. Should be a bigger premiership I think.

GreenArmyyy!
06-04-2015, 11:40 AM
Team against Hamilton
Williams
Maybury. Nelson. McGivern. Stevenson
Haynes. Craig. Robertson. Stanton.
Heffernan. Cummings.

I think we have improved but like many am frustrated that we have not taken our chances in games.

That central defensive partnership frightens me, how they get paid to play football is incredible.

Scouse Hibee
06-04-2015, 11:41 AM
Anyone that has watched Hibs regularly this season and last will surely agree that we have improved.

Borderhibbie76
06-04-2015, 11:46 AM
Watched it on telly Keith and rangers were dire, they made us look like world beaters. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the drubbing we gave them you can't forget just how crap they were.

Sorry mate but you have been to 1 match all season...that doesnt imho qualify you to comment on if we have improved. Having been to most games both last season and this...i can tell u there is improvement,granted not enough butno way are we as bad as this time last year.

Maybe attend a few more matches before slating Stubbsy and the team on here

Thecat23
06-04-2015, 11:47 AM
You have to look at the overall picture. We have now got a scoring system. We have proper coaches who are highly rated in the game. We were left in one hell of a mess. Fitness was terrible and the football was even worse!

Yes we have improved as a club overall but there is of course more room for improvement. It's an ongoing structure and it's disappointing to be facing another year down here which I think will hurt us as a club but as long as we keep moving in the right direction behind the scenes then I do think we will be alright.

Ozyhibby
06-04-2015, 11:49 AM
I honestly get really peed of at the negativity you spout on here at times, do you not feel it yourself.

To compare this team to Butcher's is at best laughable, more win ratio, better squad harmony, better vibes coming from the club in general and the club starting to move in the right direction with fan represenation on the board etc.

You also mention Fenlon and his record, while some have green tinted glasses, you have Irish green tinted ones by even saying we are the same level as Fenlon and his negative non football.

We are better but unfortunately not better enough, we expected top 4 at the start of the season, got very lucky that Rangers had 2 of the worst managers in their history and have seen some lovely passing football from Hibs that I've not seen from a Hibs team since Mowbray. Stubbs is still young and still learning and has made mistakes, hopefully he learns from these mistakes and makes us even better, we've had a blip yes but we are in a much better position compared to last season and if you cannot see this, then I feel sorry for you.

When I see us getting better I'll say so. I only appear negative on here because of what's been happening the last 8 years. Sorry for calling it the way I see it.
Think you misunderstood my point about Fenlon. I thought he was a terrible manager and used to say so on here and was criticised for it heavily on here as he needed more time to sort out the mess left by Calderwood.
Until we can start beating the teams in the top half of this league we are nowhere near the level we should be at. If you think otherwise then I feel sorry for you.

Ozyhibby
06-04-2015, 11:53 AM
You have to look at the overall picture. We have now got a scoring system. We have proper coaches who are highly rated in the game. We were left in one hell of a mess. Fitness was terrible and the football was even worse!

Yes we have improved as a club overall but there is of course more room for improvement. It's an ongoing structure and it's disappointing to be facing another year down here which I think will hurt us as a club but as long as we keep moving in the right direction behind the scenes then I do think we will be alright.

The only way we will be able to tell properly if things are moving in the right direction is if our results improve. So far they have not.

Borderhibbie76
06-04-2015, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;4340930]When I see us getting better I'll say so. I only appear negative on here because of what's been happening the last 8 years. Sorry for calling it the way I see it.
Think you misunderstood my point about Fenlon. I thought he was a terrible manager and used to say so on here and was criticised for it heavily on here as he needed more time to sort out the mess left by Calderwood.
Until we can start beating the teams in the top half of this league we are nowhere near the level we should be at. If you think otherwise then I feel
sorry for you.[/QUOTE

Do you ever look on the bright side of anything? Its almost like you take great delight when we are on a bad run so you can stick the knife in on here!!
The last 3 games have been disappointing absolutely but there is still time to turn this around starting on weds night. Reading your posts makes me wanna slit my wrists honestly

J-C
06-04-2015, 11:55 AM
Ozy i never said I was happy but we have improved, not enough but it's definitely better than last year, not the finished article but getting there.

Thecat23
06-04-2015, 11:57 AM
The only way we will be able to tell properly if things are moving in the right direction is if our results improve. So far they have not.

But they have? How many games did we win under Butcher? How many games have we won this season? League is worse yes but we have still won more games. I'm also disappointed that we seem to have blown 2nd. But in all honesty I still think the prem team will win the play offs no matter who it's against. Well are stronger than us and the Huns!

Be great to lift the Scottish, much better Hibs teams have failed to even reach the Semi's so Stubbs must be credited for that.

GreenOnions
06-04-2015, 12:23 PM
I think we've still got a fair bit to go in terms of the overall balance of the team etc. However - IMO our squad is at least as good as everyone in our league and most in the top division.

I think we underestimate how difficult it is though to build a whole functioning unit/team from scratch with a brand new manager. Allan Stubbs has brought in quite a few good players and improved our squad but I think it takes time to build a team - particularly one with a whole new footballing philosophy. I know we've been playing teams with much lower budgets and some part-timers but most of them as well as Hearts and Rangers have had longer to build and prepare a squad for this season than us.

Some on this thread are suggesting our "good form" this season has been over-hyped because of the standard of the opposition etc. Maybe it has but I've had a look at our results and the opposition this season once we started to get going.

Starting with our league cup game against Raith Rovers on 23rd September and ending with our win away at Cowdenbeath on 14th March - almost six months - we played 24 games. We lost only one of those in 90 minutes (v Falkirk away at the start of December) plus another on penalties v DUFC at the end of October. We drew 5 and won 17 of the rest.

I do understand that we are in the Championship and not the top league but, of those 24 games 3 were against Rangers and 2 against Hearts. We took 11 points out of 15 in those 5 games and scored 11 goals against 3 conceded. I would say we were pretty unlucky not to win at least one of those games against Hearts too.We also took 4 points out of 6 from QoS.

I think those who say our opposition have adapted to our game plan are correct and that has been one of our main problems. That's what happens in sport and it's up to our manager now to respond both tactically and in terms of attitude.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 12:44 PM
Sorry mate but you have been to 1 match all season...that doesnt imho qualify you to comment on if we have improved. Having been to most games both last season and this...i can tell u there is improvement,granted not enough butno way are we as bad as this time last year.

Maybe attend a few more matches before slating Stubbsy and the team on here

After Saturday's performance I'd probably not want to watch more games mate, even if I could. What I saw on Saturday confirmed what I've seen on the box. The only guy who looked like he was top league standard was Fyvie. Granted the others might have had an off day but apart from Fyvie and Stevenson I didn't see anyone who wanted to get their sleeves rolled up and go looking for the ball. The off the ball movement was non existent except for the two boys mentioned, their was no one directing on the field and if we had a game plan then I couldn't see it. In in other words we looked like a team that has just been thrown together and had no spirit or fight. Farid looked like he was sharp but I admit I didn't see enough of him to make a judgement. Hanlon was solid on the ball but his positional play has got to improve. All in all they looked like a bunch of individuals who thought turning up was enough to win it and only woke up after we went behind, that's something the manager needs to get sorted.

Mikey09
06-04-2015, 12:46 PM
When I see us getting better I'll say so. I only appear negative on here because of what's been happening the last 8 years. Sorry for calling it the way I see it.
Think you misunderstood my point about Fenlon. I thought he was a terrible manager and used to say so on here and was criticised for it heavily on here as he needed more time to sort out the mess left by Calderwood.
Until we can start beating the teams in the top half of this league we are nowhere near the level we should be at. If you think otherwise then I feel sorry for you.


Maybe its time you put the past behind you and looked positively towards the future.... Who knows, you might even crack a smile....

NAE NOOKIE
06-04-2015, 01:07 PM
Off the park we are a long way from where we were a year ago .... in the long run it has to be a good thing.

On the park we are a much better football team to watch. The only thing we lack is a wee bit more quality in the final 3rd and with it the ability to crack a packed and well organised defence. It also has to be said that we don't react quickly enough when its obvious the opposition have sussed our tactics, it would help if we could mix it up a bit.

The clubs biggest problem at this time is not so much a fragile team as a fragile support. It seems to me that in spite of all the clubs efforts and a definite upturn in the style of play any setback is treated like a disaster. IMO the fans have little or no confidence that we can turn a bad run around, given the clubs previous form when it comes to the crunch its hard not to have some sympathy with that outlook. The upshot is that we have turnouts like Saturday and you are getting comments on here from committed Hibs fans saying they might not even attend the derby because they cant bear the thought of the Grunts lording it up and worse beating us at the same time. I understand that attitude too .... though I have little sympathy with it.

It has to be said that most Saturdays Easter Road is like a morgue, it cant help the team and my guess is it helps our opponents. Its obviously not the whole reason for our home results being worse than they should be, but its a definite factor .... a few months ago the club was talking about tiny percentages, but this is one decent sized percentage they have singularly failed to address. Season ticket sales are already under way for next year so once more any chance for an FF singing section has come and gone for another season, as a result ER will remain an atmospheric easy ride for visiting teams.

The bottom line for me is that I do not think we will get promoted this year or win the cup, yes we have made progress but unfortunately not enough. If we do not go up all that will save and perhaps even improve on ST sales is if we get to the cup final.

Whatever happens, for the rest of this season I will be cheering Hibs on from the stands every hair pulling out, nail biting step of the way, and not only this season but hopefully for the seasons to come. That's what being a true supporter is all about.

GGTTH

lyonhibs
06-04-2015, 01:15 PM
It is a long term plan things don't just change overnight. The whole club to me is much more professional however as AS has said there will be blips. To me we have had a little turn of luck the wrong way with injuries to our forwards and also Gray and now Dylan. Hopefully that changes however no point going from famine to feast over a couple of results.

So is this a "season of transition" then??

Copyright of every season for practically the past decade.

The Leith Dutch
06-04-2015, 01:27 PM
Off the park we are a long way from where we were a year ago .... in the long run it has to be a good thing.

On the park we are a much better football team to watch. The only thing we lack is a wee bit more quality in the final 3rd and with it the ability to crack a packed and well organised defence. It also has to be said that we don't react quickly enough when its obvious the opposition have sussed our tactics, it would help if we could mix it up a bit.

The clubs biggest problem at this time is not so much a fragile team as a fragile support. It seems to me that in spite of all the clubs efforts and a definite upturn in the style of play any setback is treated like a disaster. IMO the fans have little or no confidence that we can turn a bad run around, given the clubs previous form when it comes to the crunch its hard not to have some sympathy with that outlook. The upshot is that we have turnouts like Saturday and you are getting comments on here from committed Hibs fans saying they might not even attend the derby because they cant bear the thought of the Grunts lording it up and worse beating us at the same time. I understand that attitude too .... though I have little sympathy with it.

It has to be said that most Saturdays Easter Road is like a morgue, it cant help the team and my guess is it helps our opponents. Its obviously not the whole reason for our home results being worse than they should be, but its a definite factor .... a few months ago the club was talking about tiny percentages, but this is one decent sized percentage they have singularly failed to address. Season ticket sales are already under way for next year so once more any chance for an FF singing section has come and gone for another season, as a result ER will remain an atmospheric easy ride for visiting teams.

The bottom line for me is that I do not think we will get promoted this year or win the cup, yes we have made progress but unfortunately not enough. If we do not go up all that will save and perhaps even improve on ST sales is if we get to the cup final.

Whatever happens, for the rest of this season I will be cheering Hibs on from the stands every hair pulling out, nail biting step of the way, and not only this season but hopefully for the seasons to come. That's what being a true supporter is all about.

GGTTH

:top marks

Turkish Green
06-04-2015, 01:30 PM
Have we improved? - Yes

Have we improved enough? - No

I would support this view.

I did not expect the Championship to be such one donkey race for the No 1 spot, but I did think that Hibs would be in the shout for the Play-offs come the end of season.

Comparing the team at the end of last season with what Stubbs has achieved now is like comparing night and day BUT the current squad still needs improving especially in front of goal where the goal to chance ratio is low.

snooky
06-04-2015, 01:36 PM
But they have? How many games did we win under Butcher? How many games have we won this season? League is worse yes but we have still won more games. I'm also disappointed that we seem to have blown 2nd. But in all honesty I still think the prem team will win the play offs no matter who it's against. Well are stronger than us and the Huns!

Be great to lift the Scottish, much better Hibs teams have failed to even reach the Semi's so Stubbs must be credited for that.

A strong possibility that a lot of people are overlooking.
However, TRFC will be given every assistance nevertheless, I'm certain of that.

Onion
06-04-2015, 01:55 PM
Yes, no question we're a better side than last season. The quality of football and management is better, but we've got to toughen up if we're to do anything in the Prem.

IMO our problem is that the recovery is still fragile and Hibs are still a "soft" club from top to bottom. When we come up against determined opposition, we just don't have the characters and mental strength to deal with that, and we capitulate. This has been a problem at Hibs for as long as I can remember, other than a short time under Macleish, Mowbray and Turnbull. It's probably the reason we've never won the Scottish Cup either.

Greenwich_Hibby
06-04-2015, 02:53 PM
You have to look at the overall picture. We have now got a scoring system. We have proper coaches who are highly rated in the game. We were left in one hell of a mess. Fitness was terrible and the football was even worse!

Yes we have improved as a club overall but there is of course more room for improvement. It's an ongoing structure and it's disappointing to be facing another year down here which I think will hurt us as a club but as long as we keep moving in the right direction behind the scenes then I do think we will be alright.

We have definitely improved, the impact of the late relegation and the chaos in the summer has obviously taken its toll. I like the direction we are heading but we are definitely no more than work-in-progress. As Michael Stewart has said consistently we have a 'soft underbelly' - we've made progress on this but the huge impact on morale by the defeat against the Huns is worrying. We are better at controlling games than last year but are very one-dimensional and very one-paced.

Thecat23
06-04-2015, 02:54 PM
We have definitely improved, the impact of the late relegation and the chaos in the summer has obviously taken its toll. I like the direction we are heading but we are definitely no more than work-in-progress. As Michael Stewart has said consistently we have a 'soft underbelly' - we've made progress on this but the huge impact on morale by the defeat against the Huns is worrying. We are better at controlling games than last year but are very one-dimensional and very one-paced.

Agree with all this [emoji106]


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bingo70
06-04-2015, 03:13 PM
But they have? How many games did we win under Butcher? How many games have we won this season? League is worse yes but we have still won more games. I'm also disappointed that we seem to have blown 2nd. But in all honesty I still think the prem team will win the play offs no matter who it's against. Well are stronger than us and the Huns!

Be great to lift the Scottish, much better Hibs teams have failed to even reach the Semi's so Stubbs must be credited for that.

So you think we're better this season but still worse than the second best team in the premiership? Doesn't seem like there's been much of an improvement then.

Imo we can't say if we've improved, you can't just dismiss the standard of the opposition. Its a hugely relevant factor, butcher couldn't get us to beat the worst teams in the league abd Stubbs seems to struggle to get us to beat the top teams in this league.

I back Stubbs and there's no question we need to give him time, I understood the reasons for the slow start but I'd have hoped we'd be better than we are now.

BSEJVT
06-04-2015, 03:27 PM
I don't think there is any doubt we have improved massively, but it has to be said its from a very low water mark.

I think Stubbs and the backroom team deserve great credit up to a point, as they have had some of these players playing consistently above their individual past standards for a prolonged period.

I think its quite impressive what we as a club have achieved with the resources that were said to be available at the start of the season.

But......

I think both Stubbs and the backroom team and the club itself are now getting found out.

There doesn't seem to be any understanding of how to change the pattern of games if plan A doesn't work, and in part I think that can be put down to the fact that the squad has too many similar players, mostly of a better standard than last year, but all very similar and not able to change the pattern of play.

IMO that's got to be down to how Stubbs has allocated the budget available to him, whether the budget is sufficient to get us to where we want to be is another matter.

There is a limit to how many rabbits Stubbs can pull out the hat and I think we have now reached that limit.

The signings of Dja Djejde, Boyle & Watson haven't matched those of Allan & McGeough and it looks like we can now see why despite his initial flurry Malonga is playing at this level.

It probably feels worse that we reached the dizzy heights of 2nd and are now falling away, than it would have been if we had spent the season striving for the play offs.

Such a drop off feels like typical Hibs and its a shame that its eroding the relative feel good factor of the progress we have made.

emerald green
06-04-2015, 03:36 PM
Because of the complete shambles this club was in following the shameful way it was relegated, surely Hibs could only improve? I shudder to think what would have happened if Hibs had got worse.

Generally, there are better players at the club now, a better head coach (I would be a better head coach than Butcher) coaching staff, and an excellent CEO. The style of football is much better to watch than the "hoofball" I hated under Butcher.

Things in the background at the club appear, to me at least, to be much more professional. Fitness levels also seem to have improved, but I'm no expert. I don't hear stories quite so much about drinking sessions in George Steet. That all seems to have gone quiet...

I keep hoping that the extra money raised through contributions to HSL and buying shares direct, will help further improve the footballing side of things at the club. How is that doing these days BTW?

That's the "positive" side of things.

On the other side of the coin, Hibs as a team are still far too soft, mentally. The same old failings that go back years and years are still there. Namely, a lack of ruthlessness in front of goal, and inability to put away teams we dominate. That, allied to at times terrible defending where we concede poor and often late goals. This, I believe, has cost Hibs 2nd place in the table unless there is a remarkable turnaround between now and the end of the league season.

There seems to me to be a weak and losing mentality when it comes to the crunch at Hibs. This is not something new either. Why? I've no idea. There is also still a lack of strong leadership on the pitch at ER.

So yes, Hibs have improved, but there is still a lot more room for improvement. A lot more. It has to be remembered the quality of some of the opposition in this league Hibs currently finds itself in, i.e. containing a number of part-time clubs.

Keith_M
06-04-2015, 03:57 PM
Watched it on telly Keith and rangers were dire, they made us look like world beaters. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the drubbing we gave them you can't forget just how crap they were.


True, they were dire, but Hibs were also very good. I honestly don't think Butcher's team would have dominated the game so much.

My point was more that it was just one game, so not really representative of the season as a whole. My view is that a lot of things have changed but there's a long way to go.

Hibs haven't taken a short term route to change things but a long term approach. I don't mean that as an excuse but it may take a bit longer to get where we want to be than a lot of people will like.

scoopyboy
06-04-2015, 04:23 PM
Watched it on telly Keith and rangers were dire, they made us look like world beaters. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed the drubbing we gave them you can't forget just how crap they were.

The same though can surely be argued about any team that has got a thumping.

We beat Hearts 7-0 in probably my favourite Hibs game but I could hardly argue Hearts were excellent.

snooky
06-04-2015, 04:33 PM
The same though can surely be argued about any team that has got a thumping.

We beat Hearts 7-0 in probably my favourite Hibs game but I could hardly argue Hearts were excellent.

Disagree Scoopyboy. We might have been favourites but Hearts had a half decent team at the time and had 2 good chances before we scored.
I suppose as Jimmy O'R once said "That would have made it 7-2" :wink:

Ozyhibby
06-04-2015, 04:42 PM
So is this a "season of transition" then??

Copyright of every season for practically the past decade.

I wish we would be told in advance when it's a 'season of transition', like when they are selling the season tickets.
:-)

bingo70
06-04-2015, 04:46 PM
I wish we would be told in advance when it's a 'season of transition', like when they are selling the season tickets.
:-)

The good news is we must be approaching the end of petries five year plan. We'll be good then I'm sure.

Hibrandenburg
06-04-2015, 04:48 PM
True, they were dire, but Hibs were also very good. I honestly don't think Butcher's team would have dominated the game so much.

My point was more that it was just one game, so not really representative of the season as a whole. My view is that a lot of things have changed but there's a long way to go.

Hibs haven't taken a short term route to change things but a long term approach. I don't mean that as an excuse but it may take a bit longer to get where we want to be than a lot of people will like.


Isn't that what we've said about every manager since TM? Don't get me wrong, there's nothing more I'd like to see than a Hibs manager being given a few years to build a team and I've been saying so for a long time now. With the exception of Calderwood we've given every manager since TM plaudits in the early stages of their tenure only to be calling for their heads when things take a downturn. Someone else mentioned that the bottom half of the Premier League is similar in quality to the top half of the Championship, I'd agree to that wholeheartedly. The question asked was have we improved? My opinion on Saturday's bore fest aside, the answer has to be no because the league table doesn't lie and we're 26 points behind the 13th placed club in Scotland.

Stuarty27
06-04-2015, 04:52 PM
The fittest team in the league shout is one that bothers me.

In my opinion we are typically much better in first half and always seem to fade in the second half and in fact would suggest the opposite.

Looking at Keith Watson on Saturday sluggishly wiping someone out with two minutes left of the game doesn't show to me we are the much fitter than other sides.

Thecat23
06-04-2015, 04:53 PM
So you think we're better this season but still worse than the second best team in the premiership? Doesn't seem like there's been much of an improvement then.

Imo we can't say if we've improved, you can't just dismiss the standard of the opposition. Its a hugely relevant factor, butcher couldn't get us to beat the worst teams in the league abd Stubbs seems to struggle to get us to beat the top teams in this league.

I back Stubbs and there's no question we need to give him time, I understood the reasons for the slow start but I'd have hoped we'd be better than we are now.

As it stands I think Well has a better squad than us that's all. Over two legs I can't see anyone in this league beating them.

Doesn't mean we haven't improved Bingo though. As I say look at the bigger picture. Did we have a scouting system under Butcher? No fatty watched YouTube and said he looks a player. We didn't use any of the sports science stuff either. As I say it's not going to click right away still a long way to go but Stubbs has shown he's a better manager than Butcher was at Hibs!


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HappyAsHellas
06-04-2015, 04:54 PM
We are going through a transitionary period just now on many levels. I cannot remember any time in the last five seasons coming away from ER feeling happy as often as this season. We know what we should be doing and where we want to be and I trust the people in charge are fully aware of this. Given where we were after the Hamilton game it's been good to see how our whole philosophy regarding the club has changed. It was never going to happen overnight, but while the last 3 games have been disappointing we are still in the mix with everything to play for.
I fail to see how anyone can deny we are much better off than we were. Still a way to go but we will get there eventually.

bingo70
06-04-2015, 04:58 PM
As it stands I think Well has a better squad than us that's all. Over two legs I can't see anyone in this league beating them.

Doesn't mean we haven't improved Bingo though. As I say look at the bigger picture. Did we have a scouting system under Butcher? No fatty watched YouTube and said he looks a player. We didn't use any of the sports science stuff either. As I say it's not going to click right away still a long way to go but Stubbs has shown he's a better manager than Butcher was at Hibs!


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That stuffs all great and hopefully we'll get the benefits of it soon. As it stands though, on the pitch I don't think given our results against the top 6 on this league anybody can point to great progress being made where it matters.

We look a better team as we're getting a lot more possession, we struggle against anyone half decent though.

I'd expect a team that had improved from last season to be blowing away the likes of qots and raith comfortably.

Thecat23
06-04-2015, 05:01 PM
That stuffs all great and hopefully we'll get the benefits of it soon. As it stands though, on the pitch I don't think given our results against the top 6 on this league anybody can point to great progress being made where it matters.

We look a better team as we're getting a lot more possession, we struggle against anyone half decent though.

I'd expect a team that had improved from last season to be blowing away the likes of qots and raith comfortably.

Personally think we have bossed two derbies this season and been unlucky with two cracking goals. We have battered The Rangers and only folded against them once. Hearts are champions and The Rangers are now 2nd. So we've done alright. As for the teams below us that's were we should really be winning!




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scoopyboy
06-04-2015, 06:33 PM
Disagree Scoopyboy. We might have been favourites but Hearts had a half decent team at the time and had 2 good chances before we scored.
I suppose as Jimmy O'R once said "That would have made it 7-2" :wink:

The good chance that Andy Lynch had was actually offside so wouldn't have counted.:greengrin

Lago
06-04-2015, 06:35 PM
I would guess there has been improvement due to the recruitment of some good players, my worry is that if Hibs have no success this season those very same players will not hang around for another season in Scotland's 2nd league and Hibs could end up like Dundee stuck in the championship for years to come.

Jim44
06-04-2015, 07:31 PM
I would guess there has been improvement due to the recruitment of some good players, my worry is that if Hibs have no success this season those very same players will not hang around for another season in Scotland's 2nd league and Hibs could end up like Dundee stuck in the championship for years to come.

I fear you are correct. If we don't go up, we possibly won't have enough to persuade any decent players to hang around or to attract decent new players in. We should be in the mix for promotion most years but we could easily become a dyed in the wool Championship team. In fact our demise over the last few years suggests this is highly likely.

Hibernia&Alba
06-04-2015, 07:53 PM
Improved compared to the disaster of last season? Yes, without question. Improved since the start of the season? Yes, again certainly. Our problem was always going to be dealing with Hearts and Rangers. We were relegated at the worst possible time, which is typical Hibs of course.

ancient hibee
06-04-2015, 07:59 PM
We have brought in better players but we shouldn't forget that most of these players were struggling and their careers were in limbo.We shouldn't be surprised if they're inconsistent and none of the players have recently experienced the pressure of being in a winning team.

Ronniekirk
06-04-2015, 10:23 PM
Improved compared to the disaster of last season? Yes, without question. Improved since the start of the season? Yes, again certainly. Our problem was always going to be dealing with Hearts and Rangers. We were relegated at the worst possible time, which is typical Hibs of course.

Agree with most of what you say but our problem doesn't revolve around beating hearts and rangers ,our record against Falkirk to date is poor and it's only marginally better against queen of the South ,and that's before I mention Raith Rovers .

Sir David Gray
06-04-2015, 10:27 PM
We have definitely improved on the latter part of last season but our results over recent weeks would suggest that we haven't improved enough.

Nakedmanoncrack
06-04-2015, 11:02 PM
We are going through a transitionary period just now on many levels. I cannot remember any time in the last five seasons coming away from ER feeling happy as often as this season. We know what we should be doing and where we want to be and I trust the people in charge are fully aware of this. Given where we were after the Hamilton game it's been good to see how our whole philosophy regarding the club has changed. It was never going to happen overnight, but while the last 3 games have been disappointing we are still in the mix with everything to play for.
I fail to see how anyone can deny we are much better off than we were. Still a way to go but we will get there eventually.


Oh well, everything is OK then, why can we assume that we'll get there eventually?

eastcoasthibby
07-04-2015, 07:24 AM
The fittest team in the league shout is one that bothers me.

In my opinion we are typically much better in first half and always seem to fade in the second half and in fact would suggest the opposite.

Looking at Keith Watson on Saturday sluggishly wiping someone out with two minutes left of the game doesn't show to me we are the much fitter than other sides.



I actually think that challenge was not about fitness but more about the lack of pace that Keith Watson actually has, it was seen against Rangers when David Gray went off, Watson got absolutely murdered by Lee Wallace. The other evidence is that Watson has no where near the impact going forward that David Gray has and creates a huge attacking void and outlet for the midfield when we go forward, don't get me wrong he does get forward, but nowhere near as much, his quality when he gets there is not great.
I think when Gray is out we do not have any natural cover in this position, which leaves a real imbalance in the way we play and a significantly reduced threat going forward and defensively.

I think thats why McNamara was happy to offload him to us, get rid of the wage as he had cover in that area, that was able to do the attacking and defending job much better with pace. Surplus to requirements !!
Keith is a centre half !!! who can cover as right back in a back four where he is not asked to get forward too often as a he has a right wight winger (like G McKay Steven) who wants to that all the time !!
I have no doubt he does what he can in the role but is not natural or have the pace to get forward with the same quality as we would like in the shape/way we have been playing.
Strengths and weaknesses,
Just my view .......

lyonhibs
07-04-2015, 07:48 AM
I wish we would be told in advance when it's a 'season of transition', like when they are selling the season tickets.
:-)

I get the feeling this season is merely transitioning as preparation for next seasons "season of transiton" - or something like that.

It's a cunning plan though. With Hearts and probably Rangers out of the league, next season will be a doddle, and we can get promoted without any games against irritatingly "big" teams for our players to keech their breeks at (except Raith Rovers, Falkirk and QoS who also seem to more or less have our number :greengrin)

Love the Green
07-04-2015, 08:48 PM
I think we have some great players at the club but i really think the way we play football does not suit us. We need a few pacy wingers in the summer hopefully with Harris returning with some confidence in form but need another 2 more IMO. We play slowly and by the time we get forward other teams have everyone back. With no pace up top its into feet all the time and not penetrating enough.

Compatred to who, can you let me know the names of these so called great players, cause they ain't turning up on match days.

Pretty Boy
07-04-2015, 08:54 PM
Compatred to who, can you let me know the names of these so called great players, cause they ain't turning up on match days.

Every club can't afford to 'only' ***** £90M on players every summer. It's all about perspective and relativity.

For the level we are at we have some very good players. Fraser Fyvie, Scott Allan, Dylan McGeough, Liam Fontaine, Paul Hanlon to name a few.

IWasThere2016
07-04-2015, 11:21 PM
:agree:

We were nowhere near ready this season, looking back to the summer, we had 14 players and, Alan Stubbs (and team) had 3 weeks to get a team sorted for the KO. Always going to struggle in that position :wink:

We are never ready - and never learn from the experience!

Hibby 2005
08-04-2015, 06:58 AM
Every club can't afford to 'only' ***** £90M on players every summer. It's all about perspective and relativity.

For the level we are at we have some very good players. Fraser Fyvie, Scott Allan, Dylan McGeough, Liam Fontaine, Paul Hanlon to name a few.

4 out of 5 are correct. Paul Hanlon is your weakest link.

Hibby 2005
08-04-2015, 07:09 AM
Every club can't afford to 'only' ***** £90M on players every summer. It's all about perspective and relativity.

For the level we are at we have some very good players. Fraser Fyvie, Scott Allan, Dylan McGeough, Liam Fontaine, Paul Hanlon to name a few.

4 out of 5 are correct. Paul Hanlon is your weakest link.

HappyAsHellas
08-04-2015, 07:31 AM
Oh well, everything is OK then, why can we assume that we'll get there eventually?

Blind faith with a liberal dose of optimism, it's what every Hibby needs.

matty_f
08-04-2015, 08:02 AM
4 out of 5 are correct. Paul Hanlon is your weakest link.

Hanlon has been excellent for a couple of seasons now.

steviehibsleith
08-04-2015, 09:15 AM
We have improved under Stubbs but there is a long way to go hopefully he can make changes in the summer to take us to the next level as right now the team isn't good enough to make it through the playoffs IMO. The SPL team will win the playoffs . Reading that Nielson won't offer Eckersley a contract as not good enough for the SPL and he requires 5/6 new players for the SPL tells you exactly where our squad is ( 26 points behind the leaders in the Championship ) . Stubbs late appointment in the summer hindered us but I believe him and his scouts will have a changed and better team in place ready for next season .


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Bristolhibby
08-04-2015, 09:31 AM
I have followed my beloved club for 45 years and those teams have always given us a run for our money. I think you are doing them a disservice to be honest. IMO

You are right.

If I had my way, the leagues would be restructured.

18 team top league, with (funnily enough) the top 6 of the Championship making up the rest of a new SPL.

Us, Hearts, The Rangers, Falkirk, QotS & Raith Rovers would easily be able to mix it at the top table.

2 up, 2 down. Then maybe a playoff for 3rd bottom v 3rd top.

Done.

J

erskine-hibby
08-04-2015, 10:05 AM
Had I been asked a few weeks ago I would have said that we have improved greatly. The last 3 results though have changed my mind. Had we won those 3 games then I would still be of that frame of mind. Hell had we won against QOS and Raith and were beaten by der hin then I would still feel that way. For me though the truth is we have got slightly better, we pass the ball better and our movement is generally good, but we miss far too many chances at times, then in others don't create enough. Sometimes I think we try to walk the ball in the net...it's so frustrating. IMHO the preseason, or lack of it, has told for a large part of this campaign.

jacomo
08-04-2015, 10:38 AM
We have undoubtedly improved. This is a team that now wants to play football again, instead of deathly dull percentage play that was boring and, ultimately, ineffective.

However, we are still a work in progress. We have faced new challenges this season and haven't always got the balance right, but it is still all to play for.

I think AS is now protecting his players from criticism and hoping they have enough self-belief and confidence to dig in over the next two months and achieve our goals.

One thing is certain - this squad won't change until the summer. We simply have to back them and the management team.