Plane Crash In France

[lord bunberry]

I see a German Wings plane has crashed in the Alps. It's thought there isn't any survivors amongst the 150 on board.

[Sylar]

Looks like a horrific scene from the aerial pictures and no way anyone survived that - group of 16 school children on board too, on their way back from an exchange.

I recall a lot of conspiracy theory nutters suggesting that flight United 93, which crashed in the Pennsylvania field on September 11th didn't really happen because there were no visibly large parts of the aircraft amongst the debris. Sadly, the aerial pictures here confirm that when an aircraft impacts ground at hight velocity, very little remains...

[Northernhibee]

Really horrible. The way that the families around the victims would be affected is unthinkable.

[Hibrandenburg]

Got over 20 friends who fly for Germanwings. Most have made contact to say they're ok but I won't know for definite that they're all ok until the casualty list is made public or they contact me. Been a horrible day. RIP 4U 9525.

[Jay]

Got over 20 friends who fly for Germanwings. Most have made contact to say they're ok but I won't know for definite that they're all ok until the casualty list is made public or they contact me. Been a horrible day. RIP 4U 9525.

Jeez thoughts are with you.xx

[HiBremian]

Got over 20 friends who fly for Germanwings. Most have made contact to say they're ok but I won't know for definite that they're all ok until the casualty list is made public or they contact me. Been a horrible day. RIP 4U 9525.

Awful, Paul. Somehow this particular tragedy has reallly hit me too - maybe because it feels so close. The flight path also went right over where we stay in France.

[JimBHibees]

Got over 20 friends who fly for Germanwings. Most have made contact to say they're ok but I won't know for definite that they're all ok until the casualty list is made public or they contact me. Been a horrible day. RIP 4U 9525.

Wow hope they are all ok. Best wishes. Horrible tragedy.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't have the names of the Crew on board but have been told that it was none of my friends and colleagues who moved the Germanwings. Whilst that's a relief it's still horrible to think of all those who lost their lives yesterday. Thoughts go out to the crew, passengers and their families.

[Jay]

Don't have the names of the Crew on board but have been told that it was none of my friends and colleagues who moved the Germanwings. Whilst that's a relief it's still horrible to think of all those who lost their lives yesterday. Thoughts go out to the crew, passengers and their families.

Glad your friends are all okay.

[Hibrandenburg]

Glad your friends are all okay.

Thanks.

[Hibrandenburg]

Awful, Paul. Somehow this particular tragedy has reallly hit me too - maybe because it feels so close. The flight path also went right over where we stay in France.

Strange isn't it, how the smallest connection gives a tragedy like yesterday a personal angle.

[HH81]

Reports online - cockpit voice recorder suggests pilot left before flight 4U9525’s descent and could not get back in.

Seems odd?

[Hibbyradge]

Reports online - cockpit voice recorder suggests pilot left before flight 4U9525’s descent and could not get back in.

Seems odd?

Suicide?

I have a vague memory that there has been some research which suggests that when high profile people are in plane crashes, other people copy them. I think it was Robert Ciaidini regarding Social Proof. I'll check it out.

I'm not sure if anyone has died in a plane crash recently, but didn't Harrison Ford crash a couple of weeks ago?

[Hibee87]

The reports are one pilot left and was unable to get back in, the other pilot was still I the cockpit. The voice recording apparently cleary hears the locked out pilot knocking on the door, to then battering on the door but no answer from pilot in cockpit inside.

according to the radar signals, the plane did not explode in mid air, but made a controlled descend onto the mountain.

I suppose only 2 things are likely here, the pilot committed suicide, or, he lost consciousness. However I don't think the plane would have descended in a controlled way if he had.

[PeeJay]

Just watched this Airbus video on the door locking procedure and there is an emergency opening option, which enables cabin crew to access the flight deck in an emergency through a code - however, if the (conscious) pilot on the other side does not want you to enter it seems he can prevent you from doing so. Think this may rule out the pilot being unconscious theory? This whole tragedy just got worse, I fear ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ixEHV7c3VXs

[Peevemor]

Just watched this Airbus video on the door locking procedure and there is an emergency opening option, which enables cabin crew to access the flight deck in an emergency through a code - however, if the (conscious) pilot on the other side does not want you to enter it seems he can prevent you from doing so. Think this may rule out the pilot being unconscious theory? This whole tragedy just got worse, I fear ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ixEHV7c3VXs

I suggested the same thing to my workmates yesterday. This incident (controlled high-speed descent into a mountain) would never have happened with 2 pilots doing their jobs normally. For me one of the pilots had taken the other out of the game then crashed the plane deliberately.

[--------]

There have been suggestions that Malaysian Airways MH370 may have been a case of pilot suicide.

If the reports of one pilot being shut out of the cockpit and the other pilot being unresponsive but preventing his colleague from getting back in are true, then this could be another.

The only other possibility I can see would be terrorism, but if that's the case, why hasn't someone claimed responsibility?

[lord bunberry]

There have been suggestions that Malaysian Airways MH370 may have been a case of pilot suicide.

If the reports of one pilot being shut out of the cockpit and the other pilot being unresponsive but preventing his colleague from getting back in are true, then this could be another.

The only other possibility I can see would be terrorism, but if that's the case, why hasn't someone claimed responsibility?
I was beginning to think that it was an act of terrorism, but as you say why has no one yet claimed responsibility. The thought that the pilot committed suicide is horrific.

[Sylar]

I was beginning to think that it was an act of terrorism, but as you say why has no one yet claimed responsibility. The thought that the pilot committed suicide is horrific.

:agree: - they had said yesterday that the aircraft was slowed to refiring speed yesterday (procedure implemented when both engines fail and they attempt to reignite the engines), so I thought it was going to be a case of double-engine failure.

To think it's pilot suicide is just awful - without wishing to ignite the debate about suicide as a way out, to do so whilst taking an entire aircraft of innocent people out with you is unthinkable.

I would also suspect, were it an act of terrorism, that the other pilot might have 'taken aim' somewhere a little more populated to maximise the damage done (horrible a thought as that also is...)

[Peevemor]

:agree: - they had said yesterday that the aircraft was slowed to refiring speed yesterday (procedure implemented when both engines fail and they attempt to reignite the engines), so I thought it was going to be a case of double-engine failure.

To think it's pilot suicide is just awful - without wishing to ignite the debate about suicide as a way out, to do so whilst taking an entire aircraft of innocent people out with you is unthinkable.

I would also suspect, were it an act of terrorism, that the other pilot might have 'taken aim' somewhere a little more populated to maximise the damage done (horrible a thought as that also is...)

It seemed to be happen in such a way that everything appeared fairly normal right up to the impact. IF it was a suicide, then it would have been easier for the pilot to mask his intention bt descending gently and steering into a mountain than by "dive bombing" a town.

[Sylar]

It seemed to be happen in such a way that everything appeared fairly normal right up to the impact. IF it was a suicide, then it would have been easier for the pilot to mask his intention bt descending gently and steering into a mountain than by "dive bombing" a town.

I don't disagree - my 'taking aim' comment was only really applicable to the potential of it being terror related.

If it was pilot suicide, I wouldn't expect him be trying to take as many with him as possible.

It feels horrible even typing these scenarios.

[Peevemor]

I don't disagree - my 'taking aim' comment was only really applicable to the potential of it being terror related.

If it was pilot suicide, I wouldn't expect him be trying to take as many with him as possible.

It feels horrible even typing these scenarios.

One of the big newspapers here (le Monde) is saying that it was the pilot and not the co-pilot that was in the cockpit and have suggested (ie. are guessing) that he may have been 'forced' into crashing the plan - ie. some sort of blackmail or threat to his family.

[--------]

I don't disagree - my 'taking aim' comment was only really applicable to the potential of it being terror related.

If it was pilot suicide, I wouldn't expect him be trying to take as many with him as possible.

It feels horrible even typing these scenarios.


In the case of MH370 the problem seems to be that there aren't any really credible scenarios that account for all the communications failures as completely as the theory that the captain (alleged to be in the middle of a super-messy marriage break-up) deliberately took the plane out to sea and allowed it to crash.

In 1999 Egypt 990 crashed not long after taking off from JFK. The American NTSB concluded that the relief First Officer deliberately crashed the aircraft to avoid the disgrace of being sacked from the airline for serial sexual harassment of cabin crew members and hotel staff at the hotel the airline regularly used in NY. The family of the pilot concerned have strenuously denied this, as have the Egyptian airline authorities. the plane was a Boeing 767, so you might think that the NTSB were protecting Boeing, while the Egyptians were protecting the reputations of a senior airline captain and the national flag-carrier. You pays your money and you takes your choice there.

Silk Air 185 went down in Indonesia in 1997. Indonesian authorities have come to no firm conclusion about the causes of this crash. NTSB say it was down to deliberate action by the captain. Again, the plane was a Boeing, a 737 this time. Around that time a number of accidents (crashes) and incidents (very very scary near-crashes) had occurred in connection with 737s due to a defective component in the rudder assembly. Again, you pays your money ....

List of crashes where pilot suicide is alleged, suspected or known to have caused the crash.

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

People watch Air Crash Investigation on Discovery and assume that the program is telling the whole truth. The trouble is that the manufacturer wants to avoid blame and the consequent bad publicity if there was something wrong with the aircraft; the airline wants to blame anyone but their maintenance staff and aircrew; the pilots' association don't want a verdict of 'pilot error'; governments don't want their regulation of their national airline industry called into question ....

Something really bad happens, and the chorus always goes up (all together now) - "IT WISNAE ME!"

And like it or not, national air safety boards do sometimes allow thenselves to be used to protect their country's industry. There was the shocking case of the DC-10's cargo door and the FAA's 'gentleman's agreement' with McDonnell-Douglas.

There have been cases (not all fatal) where the autopilot in an Airbus (Airbus seem to be rather more susceptible to this than Boeings, apparently) where the autopilot has been inadvertently disengaged and the aircraft has started a descent unnoticed by the pilots. The series of events that led to the crash of Air France 447 started that way.

But if one pilot was locked out of the cockpit ...

[Hibrandenburg]

If it's true that the pilot outside the cockpit could be heard screaming to get in then there are only 2 options.

1. The pilot flying was incapacitated and there was a fault with the door opening system. The door can either be manually opened from the inside or by pushing a button. If it is pilot incapacitation then the door was faulty too.

2. The pilot flying deliberately crashed the plane.

Either way a horrific loss of life.

[snooky]

BBC now reporting that it was the co-pilot who was locked in the cockpit.
I suppose it's unfair to judge at this stage of the investigation however, the arrows seem to be pointing in one direction.

[GlesgaeHibby]

BBC now reporting that it was the co-pilot who was locked in the cockpit.
I suppose it's unfair to judge at this stage of the investigation however, the arrows seem to be pointing in one direction.

All things pointing to a cold calculated act of pure evil as the minute. Apparently the co-pilot's breathing was normal leading up to the crash. Absolutely horrific. Can't even begin to imagine what those poor people went through during the final minutes, seeing the pilot bashing frantically at the door trying to stop it happening.

[Rattler]

Report from BBC News...

The co-pilot of the Germanwings plane that crashed into the French Alps on Tuesday appeared to want to "destroy the plane", French officials said.
Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.
He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.
Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
However, passengers could be heard screaming just before the crash, he added.
The co-pilot, now named as Andreas Lubitz, 28, was alive until the final impact, the prosecutor said.
The Airbus 320 from Barcelona to Duesseldorf hit a mountain, killing all 144 passengers and six crew, after a rapid eight-minute descent.
"We hear the pilot ask the co-pilot to take control of the plane and we hear at the same time the sound of a seat moving backwards and the sound of a door closing," Mr Robin told reporters.


"At that moment, the co-pilot is controlling the plane by himself. While he is alone, the co-pilot presses the buttons of the flight monitoring system to put into action the descent of the aeroplane.
"This action on the altitude controls can only be deliberate."
He added: "The most plausible interpretation is that the co-pilot through a voluntary act had refused to open the cabin door to let the captain in. He pushed the button to trigger the aircraft to lose altitude. He operated this button for a reason we don't know yet, but it appears that the reason was to destroy this plane."
Mr Robin said that air traffic controllers made repeated attempts to contact the aircraft, but to no avail.

[The_Exile]

We still don't know 100% what's happened but looks grim. The Co-pilot was young, 28 years old and had around a years experience. Not entirely sure what would drive someone of that age in the job of his dreams to do this, apparently his facebook page had a cover photo of the alps and a picture of his girlfriend, looked to be in a relationship for just over a year, she posted a phot just under a couple of weeks ago and he liked it (suggests that the relationship was ok).

No doubt every part of his private life will now be scrutinized for signs of money worries (apparently Germanwings have restructured which resulted in pilots earning 40% less? N idea if that's true or not), depression, relationship issues etc. Who knows? Tragic nonetheless.

[lord bunberry]

If it's true about the co pilot crashing the plane it's really hard to see how it could have been prevented. I wonder if he was showing any signs of having mental health problems.

[PeeJay]

If it's true about the co pilot crashing the plane it's really hard to see how it could have been prevented. I wonder if he was showing any signs of having mental health problems.

Norwegian Airlines probably have one way: with immediate effect two people must always be in the cockpit at any given time in all their planes (e.g. if the pilot takes a break, a crew member must take his place) ... seems a sensible idea to me.

[Bristolhibby]

If it's true about the co pilot crashing the plane it's really hard to see how it could have been prevented. I wonder if he was showing any signs of having mental health problems.

Have had this discussion on the TAMB. A simple and effective immediate fix is to implement the policy of two people at all times on the flight deck.

If the pilot wants a Pish, he buzzes the chief steward who comes knocks at the door and is let in. The pilot then hands over to the co-pilot and goes for a pish. Crucially there is always two people in the cockpit at any time.

Pilot finishes his business, knocks and is let in by the chief steward. Steward leaves and closes door behind him.

Immediately the tragic events of the other day are adverted.

I suggest this and stringent psych tests carried out every 6 months are essential policies and standard operating procedures that need to be implemented immediately.

J

[lord bunberry]

Norwegian Airlines probably have one way: with immediate effect two people must always be in the cockpit at any given time in all their planes (e.g. if the pilot takes a break, a crew member must take his place) ... seems a sensible idea to me.



It does seem sensible :agree:

[lord bunberry]

Have had this discussion on the TAMB. A simple and effective immediate fix is to implement the policy of two people at all times on the flight deck.

If the pilot wants a Pish, he buzzes the chief steward who comes knocks at the door and is let in. The pilot then hands over to the co-pilot and goes for a pish. Crucially there is always two people in the cockpit at any time.

Pilot finishes his business, knocks and is let in by the chief steward. Steward leaves and closes door behind him.

Immediately the tragic events of the other day are adverted.

I suggest this and stringent psych tests carried out every 6 months are essential policies and standard operating procedures that need to be implemented immediately.

J
:agree: It seems really obvious, you have to wonder why it takes something like this to make it happen.

[RyeSloan]

:agree: It seems really obvious, you have to wonder why it takes something like this to make it happen.

I suppose because it would seem almost impossible that even if someone wanted to take their own life that they would gratuitously take 150 others at the same time...the pilot left the controls only after cruising altitude had been reached. Barring this unbelievable act there is probably no real safety reason to have two people in the cockpit at all times.

Still none of that can change what happened and the evidence released so far is pretty clear on blaming the co pilot already....beyond comprehension what drove him to do what he did.

[Bristolhibby]

As is the case with aviation, it reacts to disasters.

I do und it ironic that the impregnable cockpits, which are a result of the 9/11 hijackings and suicide attacks have contributed to this subsequent disaster and by all accounts may well have been a carbon copy of the missing Malysian Air flight.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Just heard on the radio that Ryanair and Monarch already have the 2 in cockpit policy.

Easyjet implementing the policy as of tomorrow.

That's good as I fly Easyjet to Edinburgh tomorrow!

J

[Hibbyradge]

http://mashable.com/2015/03/26/pilot-suicides/

[Jim44]

The co-pilot either had mental health problems which resulted in his shocking action or maybe he had well-hidden terrorist links. There was a 6 month break in his training and who knows what that was for. I baulked slightly at the numerous references to pilot-suicide. As far as I am concerned, it should be classed as mass-murder.

[matty_f]

The co-pilot either had mental health problems which resulted in his shocking action or maybe he had well-hidden terrorist links. There was a 6 month break in his training and who knows what that was for. I baulked slightly at the numerous references to pilot-suicide. As far as I am concerned, it should be classed as mass-murder.
Spot on with the last sentence.

[#FromTheCapital]

I can't imagine how terrifying the final moments of those passengers lives must have been.

I fly regularly and usually don't think twice about it although there's always a niggling doubt at the back of my head. The more I think of MH370 the more I think it was a suicide/murder mission and for two similar incidents to happen in the space of one year is scary to say the least.

[Jim44]

I can't imagine how terrifying the final moments of those passengers lives must have been.

I fly regularly and usually don't think twice about it although there's always a niggling doubt at the back of my head. The more I think of MH370 the more I think it was a suicide/murder mission and for two similar incidents to happen in the space of one year is scary to say the least.

Yes it's scary and horrific but, by the same token, it's a relief to know that the technology of aviation is not the culprit.

[#FromTheCapital]

Yes it's scary and horrific but, by the same token, it's a relief to know that the technology of aviation is not the culprit.

Very true. I occasionally watch air crash investigation on national geographic and some of the disasters in years gone by would never happen these days because of the advances that have been made in aviation.

The human factors element will never go away, but I suppose the one positive that can be taken from this is that airline companies are already taking measures to hopefully prevent reoccurrences of this in future.

[The_Exile]

It's usually a long long chain of errors or faults that end up with a plane coming down, it's almost unheard of in the modern day, it's still the safest mode of transport and will remain so.

[Pete]

it's still the safest mode of transport and will remain so.

It depends how you look at it. If you count the amount of deaths in relation to the amount of actual journeys taken, it's only motorcycle travel that's more dangerous.

It's only about 60 deaths per 100 million journeys or something so it's probably not worth bothering about. You've more chance of winning the lottery than dying....which probably tells you more about the lottery than anything else.

[cabbageandribs1875]

it must have been truly horrific for those poor people when they realised what was happening, hope he's burning in hell already

[#FromTheCapital]

It depends how you look at it. If you count the amount of deaths in relation to the amount of actual journeys taken, it's only motorcycle travel that's more dangerous.

It's only about 60 deaths per 100 million journeys or something so it's probably not worth bothering about. You've more chance of winning the lottery than dying....which probably tells you more about the lottery than anything else.

This. The only reason there are more car crashes is because there are far more people travelling by car every day than planes.

If I had two options of being involved in a car crash or a plane crash, I know what I'd choose.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It seems mad people look the same as everybody else.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/andreas-lubitz-pilot-germanwings-crash-alps

Who'd have thunk it?

[Hibrandenburg]

It seems mad people look the same as everybody else.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/andreas-lubitz-pilot-germanwings-crash-alps

Who'd have thunk it?

Don't really care if he was mad, depressed or normal. If he did take 149 people with him to the grave then he's a monster.

[Beefster]

This. The only reason there are more car crashes is because there are far more people travelling by car every day than planes.

As with most stats, you can use them to prove anything. The number of deaths per x miles travelled is far lower for airplane than it is for car. That's as good a reason to claim that air travel is safer than car as any.

http://freakonomics.com/2009/07/02/the-danger-of-safety/

[Phil D. Rolls]

Don't really care if he was mad, depressed or normal. If he did take 149 people with him to the grave then he's a monster.

Can't disagree with you there. No point in opening up the mad v bad debate, but I just think it's amusing how, in this day and age, newpapers think saying "he looked normal" makes any difference in judging his sanity.

The "looks normal" diagnosis has long been out of favour in psychiatry.

[Sylar]

Can't disagree with you there. No point in opening up the mad v bad debate, but I just think it's amusing how, in this day and age, newpapers think saying "he looked normal" makes any difference in judging his sanity.

The "looks normal" diagnosis has long been out of favour in psychiatry.

It sort of undoes a lot of progress we've made in mental illness actually by suddenly suggesting there should be physical manifestations of underlying mental conditions.

I get that many argue, when someone reaches that point of committing suicide, their mental position is totally fragile and irrational which contributes to the inevitable decision.

However, to take 149 other people with you is a heinous, calculated and deliberate action which requires premeditation. As Paul points out above, that simply makes him a monster.

[lord bunberry]

It's now being reported that the co pilot had been recommended for treatment for depression, he had a sick note from his doctor for the day of the crash. He had torn the sick notes up.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Most people who commit suicide don't take others with them. It's that act of selfishness - for whatever reason he did it, that makes him an evil man.

A very egotistical act IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

Most people who commit suicide don't take others with them. It's that act of selfishness - for whatever reason he did it, that makes him an evil man.

A very egotistical act IMO.

:agree:

[snooky]

This was not just an act of committing suicide. This was a deliberate act of premeditated mass murder. Finito.

[Just Alf]

Most people who commit suicide don't take others with them. It's that act of selfishness - for whatever reason he did it, that makes him an evil man.

A very egotistical act IMO.


:agree:


This was not just an act of committing suicide. This was a deliberate act of premeditated mass murder. Finito.

Agreed... I just can't understand why you'd do it when you know all those people were sitting just behind you.... he surely must have seen the children etc.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Agreed... I just can't understand why you'd do it when you know all those people were sitting just behind you.... he surely must have seen the children etc.

Males are much more likely to commit suicide in an exhibitionist, violent manner. Who knows why this guy did it, but sometimes suicide is an act of spite by people bitter at the way the world has treated them.

[snooky]

BBC news tonight reporting compensation variables for victims' relatives.
My God it doesn't take long for the legal ambulance chasers to latch on to a possible blame claim.
These kind are devoid of morals and integrity.

[Sergey]

BBC news tonight reporting compensation variables for victims' relatives.
My God it doesn't take long for the legal ambulance chasers to latch on to a possible blame claim.
These kind are devoid of morals and integrity.

I think your comment is both wide of the mark and a poorly thought out as Lufthansa stated yesterday that immediate compensation was being made available to support victims families.

The airline have admitted responsibility and will give recompense to all concerned...and swiftly.

[snooky]

I think your comment is both wide of the mark and a poorly thought out as Lufthansa stated yesterday that immediate compensation was being made available to support victims families.

The airline have admitted responsibility and will give recompense to all concerned...and swiftly.

I understand your point. Of course, it goes without saying, immediate financial assistance to the families at this time is welcome news, but that wasn't what was reported.
The BBC News item stated that compensation amounts would vary depending on the nationality of the victims and other tasteless observations (IMO) relating to future claims. I thought at the time and still think the report was insensitive especially at this time. My feelings (like many others) are still a bit raw on this tragedy hence my reaction.

[Scouse Hibee]

This was not just an act of committing suicide. This was a deliberate act of premeditated mass murder. Finito.

Exactly, suicide does not do this act justice.

[HiBremian]

It's now being reported that the co pilot had been recommended for treatment for depression, he had a sick note from his doctor for the day of the crash. He had torn the sick notes up.

Now we have another problem - doctor's oath of confidentiality..


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[lord bunberry]

Now we have another problem - doctor's oath of confidentiality..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Does that apply in these circumstances?

[snooky]

Now we have another problem - doctor's oath of confidentiality..


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It would be reasonable for the doctor to assume that, having issued a sick note, the patient would take the time off work would it not?
In retrospect, given the responsibility of the job and the guy's unstable condition, I find it unsettling that there wasn't more communication and/or consultation between his employers and his doctor. I suspect there will be in future similar situations.
Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.

[HiBremian]

Does that apply in these circumstances?

It's being discussed here in Germany, LB. The line of thinking seems to be if someone with this kind of job is suffering from depression, employers ought to be notified. It's a difficult one. It's believed that pilots have been reluctant to reveal any such problems, however minimal, for fear of losing their job.


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[HibsMax]

It's such a shame that the measures taken to protect the plane, crew and passengers ended up contributing to this particular incident. I'm not blaming anyone but when you look back at this, to think that it's possible for the captain to be locked out of the cockpit seems absurd. I heard that there is switch in the cockpit that locks the door for 5 minutes but it's possible that the co-pilot kept activating it (flight data recorder might be required to know for sure?). It's all well and good saying that there should be two people in the cockpit at all times but even then, "something" could happen and that "something" should never result in the person at the controls being locked out of the room with the controls.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's such a shame that the measures taken to protect the plane, crew and passengers ended up contributing to this particular incident. I'm not blaming anyone but when you look back at this, to think that it's possible for the captain to be locked out of the cockpit seems absurd. I heard that there is switch in the cockpit that locks the door for 5 minutes but it's possible that the co-pilot kept activating it (flight data recorder might be required to know for sure?). It's all well and good saying that there should be two people in the cockpit at all times but even then, "something" could happen and that "something" should never result in the person at the controls being locked out of the room with the controls.


Security borders on the ridiculous at times. Every time my colleagues and myself go through security we get frisked. When I asked the German Aviation Authority why this is, their answer was and I quote, " it's to make sure you're not carrying anything that would allow you to take control of the aircraft". Understandable in normal circumstances but we are the crew and are already in control of the aircraft.

[Sir David Gray]

Agreed... I just can't understand why you'd do it when you know all those people were sitting just behind you.... he surely must have seen the children etc.

There's other examples of similar acts where people have shot others dead before shooting themselves.

I would say this is a very similar case.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here, but it's been bugging me all day since I saw the newspaper headlines.

Things like "why was this man allowed to fly a plane? " only entrench stigmatisation of those with depression. In almost 20 years experience of the condition, I may have thought about harming myself, but never others.

The media portrayal of the facts is obscene, as is the suggestion that pilots with depression shouldn't be allowed to work. If we do that, where do we stop? Taxi and bus drivers, which are arguably more dangerous jobs? Doctors, surgeons, nurses? Gas installers?

What about your accountant? Shouldn't you be wary of him lest he launches himself at you with a letter opener?

MIND seem to agree with me:-

http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/minds-media-office/complain-to-the-media/

[RyeSloan]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here, but it's been bugging me all day since I saw the newspaper headlines. Things like "why was this man allowed to fly a plane? " only entrench stigmatisation of those with depression. In almost 20 years experience of the condition, I may have thought about harming myself, but never others. The media portrayal of the facts is obscene, as is the suggestion that pilots with depression shouldn't be allowed to work. If we do that, where do we stop? Taxi and bus drivers, which are arguably more dangerous jobs? Doctors, surgeons, nurses? Gas installers? What about your accountant? Shouldn't you be wary of him lest he launches himself at you with a letter opener? MIND seem to agree with me:- http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/minds-media-office/complain-to-the-media/

It's a fair point and I'm also a bit unnerved about how the whole investigation into this guy seems to be taking place with hourly updates to the worlds press. I would have hoped the authorities would take some time (even like a day or three!) to do their investigation then provide some established facts.

And while every sensible step should be taken to avoid a repeat there also needs to be some understanding that not all things can always be prevented...certainly we should be avoiding knee jerk reactions like doctors being forced to inform employers of a list of conditions that an employee suffers from, thin end of a wedge that one.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This was not just an act of committing suicide. This was a deliberate act of premeditated mass murder. Finito.

Is Finito a foreign version of end of? Its still as bad as my bad.

[lord bunberry]

It's being discussed here in Germany, LB. The line of thinking seems to be if someone with this kind of job is suffering from depression, employers ought to be notified. It's a difficult one. It's believed that pilots have been reluctant to reveal any such problems, however minimal, for fear of losing their job.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's a really difficult one for a doctor to call. As CWG says having depression doesn't make the vast majority of of sufferers want to harm others. On the flip side ive no doubt that the doctor is now wishing he'd done more to intervene. The answer here lies in stopping a situation like this happening again through procedures like not allowing a pilot to be left alone in the cockpit. The focus now should not be on this mans mental state as that won't prevent another pilot doing the same.

[Flo1898]

Agreed... I just can't understand why you'd do it when you know all those people were sitting just behind you.... he surely must have seen the children etc.
In my opinion he had planned his suicide for a long time. I read an article yesterday where a doc tried to explain his behavior. He said people with a depression often develop a need of power to rule about life and death. He wants to make the people feel like he did for all of his life. A feeling of being alone with the pain, a feeling of helplessness.

[Pete]

In my opinion he had planned his suicide for a long time. I read an article yesterday where a doc tried to explain his behavior. He said people with a depression often develop a need of power to rule about life and death. He wants to make the people feel like he did for all of his life. A feeling of being alone with the pain, a feeling of helplessness.

How many others suffering from depression would do the same if the opportunity was there? I know this was a horrible incident (I feel sick the more I think about it) but I'm not comfortable with people describing this man as evil.

It's easy to hide such an illness and it's extremely common to do so because of its very nature. It must all be about a 100%, airline wide cockpit policy to prevent this happening again. The best doctors in the world couldn't have prevented this.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm going to go against the grain a bit here, but it's been bugging me all day since I saw the newspaper headlines.

Things like "why was this man allowed to fly a plane? " only entrench stigmatisation of those with depression. In almost 20 years experience of the condition, I may have thought about harming myself, but never others.

The media portrayal of the facts is obscene, as is the suggestion that pilots with depression shouldn't be allowed to work. If we do that, where do we stop? Taxi and bus drivers, which are arguably more dangerous jobs? Doctors, surgeons, nurses? Gas installers?

What about your accountant? Shouldn't you be wary of him lest he launches himself at you with a letter opener?

MIND seem to agree with me:-

http://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/minds-media-office/complain-to-the-media/

I'd have thought more pilots have heart attacks than commit suicide when they are flying.

On top of that, how can anybody judge how depressed someone is, and how likely they are to commit suicide? It's a preposterous situation that reveals a total misunderstanding of the condition.

Doctor: How do you feel?
Patient: I feel OK - I'm not depressed, me.
Doctor: In that case you don't meet the diagnostic criteria for Depression (I had a couple of days mental health training when I was a student).
Patient: Cheers doc - any idea where I can buy a 12 foot piece of rope by the way?


Now we have another problem - doctor's oath of confidentiality..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

IN what way?


How many others suffering from depression would do the same if the opportunity was there? I know this was a horrible incident (I feel sick the more I think about it) but I'm not comfortable with people describing this man as evil.

It's easy to hide such an illness and it's extremely common to do so because of its very nature. It must all be about a 100%, airline wide cockpit policy to prevent this happening again. The best doctors in the world couldn't have prevented this.

I think he was evil as - barring a psychotic episode - he had control over his actions. He knew what he was doing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

In my opinion he had planned his suicide for a long time. I read an article yesterday where a doc tried to explain his behavior. He said people with a depression often develop a need of power to rule about life and death. He wants to make the people feel like he did for all of his life. A feeling of being alone with the pain, a feeling of helplessness.

The only person that can explain his behaviour is dead.

For a doctor to try and explain what someone is thinking is arrogant and totally unscientific.

btw I have Depression and I have never had a need to have power over life and death.

[Flo1898]

The only person that can explain his behaviour is dead.

For a doctor to try and explain what someone is thinking is arrogant and totally unscientific.

btw I have Depression and I have never had a need to have power over life and death.
Sorry to hear that. We will never find out what was going on in his head. But I think it's normal that "experts " try to explain what could have been going on.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry to hear that. We will never find out what was going on in his head. But I think it's normal that "experts " try to explain what could have been going on.
It might be "normal", but the sensationalist reporting has the potential to severely damage attitudes to mental health.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry to hear that. We will never find out what was going on in his head. But I think it's normal that "experts " try to explain what could have been going on.

Don't worry about it, Depression exists on a spectrum and you can have long periods when you are well. The way this has been reported it's like anybody with Depression could commit suicide, or murder.

The experts they quote are nothing more than gossips speculating. Unless there has been a survey of people who have committed suicide, nobody can tell what was in their mind.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It might be "normal", but the sensationalist reporting has the potential to severely damage attitudes to mental health.

I think it will pass very quickly. 24 hour rolling news is a vacuum which has to be filled half the time people aren't even listening.

The point being, if the public are prepared to swallow this ill informed nonsense, they can't have given the subject much thought at all.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it will pass very quickly. 24 hour rolling news is a vacuum which has to be filled half the time people aren't even listening.

The point being, if the public are prepared to swallow this ill informed nonsense, they can't have given the subject much thought at all.

One thing is a given, there will be copycat incidents. Now that the pilot's name has been plastered all over the media he will become an icon for all the grey men out there who consider themselves worthy of infamy.

[Hibbyradge]

Most people who commit suicide don't take others with them. It's that act of selfishness - for whatever reason he did it, that makes him an evil man.

A very egotistical act IMO.

It's most unlike you to jump to conclusions, Mr Rolls.


This was not just an act of committing suicide. This was a deliberate act of premeditated mass murder. Finito.


Agreed... I just can't understand why you'd do it when you know all those people were sitting just behind you.... he surely must have seen the children etc.

I can't understand what it must feel like to want to end your own life because of internal mental anguish.

I can't imagine what is going on in someone's mind during their final days.

Suicide is the single most irrational thing someone can do. It goes against all of our primal instincts.

Why then do we credit those who do it with rational thought processes?

Maybe he thought the people on the plane wouldn't object, if they knew the scale of his pain.

Maybe he thought he was doing them a favour, saving them from the same, inevitable torture that he was experiencing.

It's very shocking and it's very sad. What he did was truly terrible and the world will condemn him as evil. However, I think it's much more complicated than that.

The thing is, if he hadn't been ill, he wouldn't have crashed the plane.

If he'd somehow survived the crash, and was subsequently prosecuted, he'd be pleading insanity and he'd have a decent chance.

[Hibbyradge]

I type all that, then I read this! :brickwall

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32098578

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's most unlike you to jump to conclusions, Mr Rolls.

I can't understand what it must feel like to want to end your own life because of internal mental anguish.

I can't imagine what is going on in someone's mind during their final days.

Suicide is the single most irrational thing someone can do. It goes against all of our primal instincts.

Why then do we credit those who do it with rational thought processes?

Maybe he thought the people on the plane wouldn't object, if they knew the scale of his pain.

Maybe he thought he was doing them a favour, saving them from the same, inevitable torture that he was experiencing.

It's very shocking and it's very sad. What he did was truly terrible and the world will condemn him as evil. However, I think it's much more complicated than that.

The thing is, if he hadn't been ill, he wouldn't have crashed the plane.

If he'd somehow survived the crash, and was subsequently prosecuted, he'd be pleading insanity and he'd have a decent chance.

I should really have said - if he has full control over his decisions, and most depressives do barring psychotic episodes, then this was a wicked thing to do.

Re. suicide being irrational, I'd disagree. For some people, such as the terminally ill chosing to go on living in pain with no prospect of improvement is irrational IMO.

Regardless of why somebody's mind reaches the conclusion that they want to end it all, they have no right to end other people's lives at the same time. He deserves no sympathy for anything that caused harm to other people.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I type all that, then I read this! :brickwall

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32098578

As I said, most people who commit suicide don't kill other people in the process.

[Hibrandenburg]

I should really have said - if he has full control over his decisions, and most depressives do barring psychotic episodes, then this was a wicked thing to do.

Re. suicide being irrational, I'd disagree. For some people, such as the terminally ill chosing to go on living in pain with no prospect of improvement is irrational IMO.

Regardless of why somebody's mind reaches the conclusion that they want to end it all, they have no right to end other people's lives at the same time. He deserves no sympathy for anything that caused harm to other people.

This guy (I refuse to remember his name) has had issues for years. He could and should have handed in his license at anytime over the last few years. Instead, even in his lucid moments decided not to do this and instead selfishly decided to put his needs ahead of the safety of others. Nothing can excuse what he did.

[CropleyWasGod]

This guy (I refuse to remember his name) has had issues for years. He could and should have handed in his license at anytime over the last few years. Instead, even in his lucid moments decided not to do this and instead selfishly decided to put his needs ahead of the safety of others. Nothing can excuse what he did.

Are you saying that anyone who has depression, and whose job brings them into contact with the public, should not be allowed to do that job?

[Beefster]

Are you saying that anyone who has depression, and whose job brings them into contact with the public, should not be allowed to do that job?

If they have thoughts about killing dozens of innocent people as a symptom of that depression, I would say not.

[CropleyWasGod]

If they have thoughts about killing dozens of innocent people as a symptom of that depression, I would say not.
How would you know?

Extending that logic, anyone who has contact with the public and who has a history of depression (and even those who don't) should be assessed to establish whether they have such thoughts.

Given that that's 1 in 3 or 4 of us, is that really practical? And is it desirable to alienate and stigmatise such a large part of society?

[Hibrandenburg]

Are you saying that anyone who has depression, and whose job brings them into contact with the public, should not be allowed to do that job?

No, I'm saying that anyone who has considered topping others along with themselves due to depression or delusional fantasies might wanna consider their career choices.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, I'm saying that anyone who has considered topping others along with themselves due to depression or delusional fantasies might wanna consider their career choices.
That's okay from a rational perspective, but it's not really how mental health works.

I'm not going to use this situation as an example, because we don't know the facts yet. The media coverage is annoying the F out of me. All I would do is relate it to my own experience.

In well moments, I think "that's fine. I'm well again. I am in control of this". I don't think "I should stay away from people".

IMO, this whole episode will turn out to be about a complex range of issues, rather than just depression.

[hibsbollah]

I feel the media coverage of the event is tantamount to demonising people with mental health issues. Which is disgraceful. its almost as if they replaced the standard 'Islamist nutter' narrative with the easier 'nutter' narrative.

But The Sun has some history here. Frank Bruno anyone?

[Hibrandenburg]

That's okay from a rational perspective, but it's not really how mental health works.

I'm not going to use this situation as an example, because we don't know the facts yet. The media coverage is annoying the F out of me. All I would do is relate it to my own experience.

In well moments, I think "that's fine. I'm well again. I am in control of this". I don't think "I should stay away from people".

IMO, this whole episode will turn out to be about a complex range of issues, rather than just depression.

I'm not advocating that people suffering from depression should be separated from the wider community. I'm not even suggesting that all people with depression should not be let near an aircraft. I know of some colleagues who fly that have suffered fro depression of one form or another who still fly. I'm saying that people who have seriously considered killing people and are suffering from depression would surely have enough lucid moments over a period of several years to realise they might be a danger to the public and try and remove that danger, if not I question their character as a person regardless of their state of health. Would we accept someone who's vision is deteriorating to continue driving and try and hide the fact from the authorities? Would we accept someone with epilepsy hiding the fact to allow them to continue their job as a train driver? Of course we wouldn't, at some point the rights of the individual are trumped by the safety of the public.

[lord bunberry]

I'm not advocating that people suffering from depression should be separated from the wider community. I'm not even suggesting that all people with depression should not be let near an aircraft. I know of some colleagues who fly that have suffered fro depression of one form or another who still fly. I'm saying that people who have seriously considered killing people and are suffering from depression would surely have enough lucid moments over a period of several years to realise they might be a danger to the public and try and remove that danger, if not I question their character as a person regardless of their state of health. Would we accept someone who's vision is deteriorating to continue driving and try and hide the fact from the authorities? Would we accept someone with epilepsy hiding the fact to allow them to continue their job as a train driver? Of course we wouldn't, at some point the rights of the individual are trumped by the safety of the public.
The problem is that no matter the reason for this guys actions, people will only remember the fact that he had depression. For all we know his actions could have been nothing to do with his depression.
When I first heard the news that he was suffering from depression I automatically jumped to the conclusion that this was reason for his actions and that he shouldn't have been flying the plane in that state. I jumped to this conclusion despite having my own problems in this area, so I'd imagine others will have done the same. I have to say I feel pretty disappointed with myself but it just goes to show that what CWG is correct about the stigma attached to depression.
The more I read and watch about this man the more I begin to think that he was just someone who wanted to do this sort of thing.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Mental "illness" is not an off shoot of physical illness. The naive and irresponsible way this incident has been reported draws on the worst aspects of the medicalisation of the human condition.

Medicine is based on objective, scientific tests which can show how a single cell, or organ will work and misfunction. Regrettably, psychiatry has tried to mimic the medical model so that doctors treating the mad can gain some legitimacy for their subjective art.

All of this has led to questions like "how can you spot the signs someone is going to do such and such an act"? I would say the signs are pretty much the same for a person with a diagnosis as a person without a diagnosis.

The way that it's being reported is that you could maybe scan the person's brain, or simply phone them up and ask if they're planning on crashing a passenger jet today.

Much has been made about the sick notes being destroyed. The sub text I can get from that is that maybe the doctors should have stopped him in some way.

I think the fact they didn't, kind of tells people that the doctors didn't consider this a risk. I don't know about Germany, but in Scotland the only grounds you can have for detaining a patient against their will is if they are a risk to themselves, or others.

So what is the solution to all of this? There isn't one, unless the guy had showed up at work acting bizarrely how could people have known. What are we supposed to do?

A step back is needed: most people who commit suicide have never been treated for a mental health condition; the vast majority of plane crashes are not caused by people wanting to end the lives of everyone on board; there is no stigmata that can be seen which will show whether a person is about to commit suicide.

I really wish people would stop trying to rationalise this man's actions; I wish they would stop trying to say it was because of mental illness; I wish they could just accept that bad things happen, for no reason, and that we don't have the power to see what is in anybody's brain.

I can guarantee that almost everybody who has ever spoken to a psychiatrist will admit to having homicidal or suicidal "thoughts" at one time. So, short of locking them away from all the "normal" people who haven't, WTF are we supposed to do?

There is a massive gap between having a thought, making a plan, and carrying out it.

[Hibrandenburg]

The more I read and watch about this man the more I begin to think that he was just someone who wanted to do this sort of thing.

:agree:

Now add the overwhelming feeling of worthlessness and the belief of having nothing to lose and you've just lit a match near a powder keg.

Like any catastrophe there is a chain of events that lead to it. Break the chain and you stop the catastrophe.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree:

Now add the overwhelming feeling of worthlessness and the belief of having nothing to lose and you've just lit a match near a powder keg.

Like any catastrophe there is a chain of events that lead to it. Break the chain and you stop the catastrophe.

Pure speculation here, and hypocritical on my part, I don't think this man thought he was worthless. I think it's been a case of somebody who was angry because the world didn't acknowledge his inflated sense of self worth.

If I was to make a bet on this man, I'd say his actions are more in line with a personality disorder than depression. That's why I'm getting annoyed with the media - they've opened this can of worms, and will walk away without giving the subject the depth it now deserves.

[Hibrandenburg]

Mental "illness" is not an off shoot of physical illness. The naive and irresponsible way this incident has been reported draws on the worst aspects of the medicalisation of the human condition.

Medicine is based on objective, scientific tests which can show how a single cell, or organ will work and misfunction. Regrettably, psychiatry has tried to mimic the medical model so that doctors treating the mad can gain some legitimacy for their subjective art.

All of this has led to questions like "how can you spot the signs someone is going to do such and such an act"? I would say the signs are pretty much the same for a person with a diagnosis as a person without a diagnosis.

The way that it's being reported is that you could maybe scan the person's brain, or simply phone them up and ask if they're planning on crashing a passenger jet today.

Much has been made about the sick notes being destroyed. The sub text I can get from that is that maybe the doctors should have stopped him in some way.

I think the fact they didn't, kind of tells people that the doctors didn't consider this a risk. I don't know about Germany, but in Scotland the only grounds you can have for detaining a patient against their will is if they are a risk to themselves, or others.

So what is the solution to all of this? There isn't one, unless the guy had showed up at work acting bizarrely how could people have known. What are we supposed to do?

A step back is needed: most people who commit suicide have never been treated for a mental health condition; the vast majority of plane crashes are not caused by people wanting to end the lives of everyone on board; there is no stigmata that can be seen which will show whether a person is about to commit suicide.

I really wish people would stop trying to rationalise this man's actions; I wish they would stop trying to say it was because of mental illness; I wish they could just accept that bad things happen, for no reason, and that we don't have the power to see what is in anybody's brain.

I can guarantee that almost everybody who has ever spoken to a psychiatrist will admit to having homicidal or suicidal "thoughts" at one time. So, short of locking them away from all the "normal" people who haven't, WTF are we supposed to do?

There is a massive gap between having a thought, making a plan, and carrying out it.

There is another explanation for the sick note being torn up that no-one has touched on yet. Airline pilots have exhausting schedules to fly, these guys spend hours flying workloads that would be banned for truck drivers and in many different time zones. Fatigue is a major cause of absenteeism in the airline industry and airlines are renowned for calling employees into the office and grilling them regarding this whether they have provided Dr's sicknotes or not. An enormous amount of pressure is put on employees and especially co-pilots who's attendance record is vital to them getting a permanent contract or not. Many of these guys have run up horrendous debts obtaining their license and the airlines know that this can be used to pressure them into working inhuman schedules. Maybe this guy ripped up his sicknote and went to work whilst not being fit to do so because of fear of losing his job. Another explanation perhaps but still no excuse for what he did, nothing can possibly do that.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There is another explanation for the sick note being torn up that no-one has touched on yet. Airline pilots have exhausting schedules to fly, these guys spend hours flying workloads that would be banned for truck drivers and in many different time zones. Fatigue is a major cause of absenteeism in the airline industry and airlines are renowned for calling employees into the office and grilling them regarding this whether they have provided Dr's sicknotes or not. An enormous amount of pressure is put on employees and especially co-pilots who's attendance record is vital to them getting a permanent contract or not. Many of these guys have run up horrendous debts obtaining their license and the airlines know that this can be used to pressure them into working inhuman schedules. Maybe this guy ripped up his sicknote and went to work whilst not being fit to do so because of fear of losing his job. Another explanation perhaps but still no excuse for what he did, nothing can possibly do that.

Perfectly plausible, many self employed people work when they are sick, as they have no choice.

Maybe you can enlighten me on a bit of background. In the UK people only tend to get a sick note from their doctor if they want to go off work. Do German doctors have the right to sign somebody as being unfit for work, against their wishes?

[Hibrandenburg]

Pure speculation here, and hypocritical on my part, I don't think this man thought he was worthless. I think it's been a case of somebody who was angry because the world didn't acknowledge his inflated sense of self worth.

If I was to make a bet on this man, I'd say his actions are more in line with a personality disorder than depression. That's why I'm getting annoyed with the media - they've opened this can of worms, and will walk away without giving the subject the depth it now deserves.

We're all speculating Mr Rolls. I'm sure you're speculation is more informed than most but like someone else already mentioned, there's only one person who knew why this happened.

[lord bunberry]

Pure speculation here, and hypocritical on my part, I don't think this man thought he was worthless. I think it's been a case of somebody who was angry because the world didn't acknowledge his inflated sense of self worth.

If I was to make a bet on this man, I'd say his actions are more in line with a personality disorder than depression. That's why I'm getting annoyed with the media - they've opened this can of worms, and will walk away without giving the subject the depth it now deserves.
:agree: It reminds me of a guy in America who went into his gym and shot loads of people because none of them had noticed how he had lost loads of weight and got a good physique.

[Phil D. Rolls]

We're all speculating Mr Rolls. I'm sure you're speculation is more informed than most but like someone else already mentioned, there's only one person who knew why this happened.


:agree: It reminds me of a guy in America who went into his gym and shot loads of people because none of them had noticed how he had lost loads of weight and got a good physique.

I see parallels with Thomas Hamilton at Dunblane. A nasty, twisted little man who wanted to show the world he was more important than they realised.

Going back to Depression, I just don't think its consistent with what we know about the "illness" that someone would want to kill others.

[Hibrandenburg]

Perfectly plausible, many self employed people work when they are sick, as they have no choice.

Maybe you can enlighten me on a bit of background. In the UK people only tend to get a sick note from their doctor if they want to go off work. Do German doctors have the right to sign somebody as being unfit for work, against their wishes?

Yes in some cases. There are some conditions that are considered " Meldepflichtig" where the Dr is required to report them, these mainly cover contagious diseases but also cover other debilitating illnesses for certain employment groups.

But generally it's the same as in the UK where there is a Dr/Patient confidentiality law that can only be lifted by a judge.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yes in some cases. There are some conditions that are considered " Meldepflichtig" where the Dr is required to report them, these mainly cover contagious diseases but also cover other debilitating illnesses for certain employment groups.

But generally it's the same as in the UK where there is a Dr/Patient confidentiality law that can only be lifted by a judge.

So, this guy's been taking the time to go the doctor's and get himself signed off, but then goes home an rips up the sick note.

Why would he do that? I suppose there is a myriad of explanations - each one could lead us to a different motive for his final act. We'll never know.

[CropleyWasGod]

So, this guy's been taking the time to go the doctor's and get himself signed off, but then goes home an rips up the sick note.

Why would he do that? I suppose there is a myriad of explanations - each one could lead us to a different motive for his final act. We'll never know.

Correct. We will never know.

However, we can comfort ourselves that HM Press will tell us exactly what (they think) happened, and in doing so do nothing for the cause of mental health.

In one paper yesterday, apparently, we were told that the guy was gay. WTF? I fully expect that, this week, we will find out that he was also a Turkish asylum seeker.

If this guy has a legacy, I'd like it to be that the media have a good look at themselves and change their way of reporting mental health issues. It happened before, after the Ipswich murders, when the media stopped referring to "prostitutes", and started to call them "women", and rightly so. A similar watershed in this situation would be very welcome.

[Beefster]

How would you know?

Extending that logic, anyone who has contact with the public and who has a history of depression (and even those who don't) should be assessed to establish whether they have such thoughts.

Given that that's 1 in 3 or 4 of us, is that really practical? And is it desirable to alienate and stigmatise such a large part of society?

I think you're looking for something that no-one has said. Most people with any type or severity of mental illness don't have the opportunity to massacre 149 customers and colleagues with the flick of a switch.

I don't think regular psychological assessment of pilots or other professions where there is the possibility of relatively simple mass murder is a bad idea though.

Almost everyone has been touched directly or indirectly by mental illness so it's not like many of us are talking from complete ignorance either.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think you're looking for something that no-one has said. Most people with any type or severity of mental illness don't have the opportunity to massacre 149 customers and colleagues with the flick of a switch.

I don't think regular psychological assessment of pilots or other professions where there is the possibility of relatively simple mass murder is a bad idea though.

Almost everyone has been touched directly or indirectly by mental illness so it's not like many of us are talking from complete ignorance either.

I tell you what I am looking for...evidence that the guy's depression was what caused this. Thus far, there has only been speculation, fuelled by sub-editors and headline writers.

It's not the rationale of assessments that bothers me; that seems, on the surface, reasonable.... although I do wonder how it would work in practice, particularly among the self-employed...... it's the fact that so many people have been caught up in a debate about a guy's motivations, on the basis of nothing more than media gossip.

There's been a lot of good debate on this thread, and, like you say, very little is based on ignorance. I do wonder, though, about wider society. Misinformation is where prejudice and discrimination starts.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think you're looking for something that no-one has said. Most people with any type or severity of mental illness don't have the opportunity to massacre 149 customers and colleagues with the flick of a switch.

I don't think regular psychological assessment of pilots or other professions where there is the possibility of relatively simple mass murder is a bad idea though.

Almost everyone has been touched directly or indirectly by mental illness so it's not like many of us are talking from complete ignorance either.

I actually think the reason why this guy did it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that nobody was able to get into the cabin to stop him.

I think the focus on the investigation shouldn't be on why people kill, but rather how can we prevent them doing it.

A safe security system (is it possible to over ride the cockpit from the ground:dunno:) is a much easier road to go down instead of psychometric tests - which are easy to falsify anyway.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I tell you what I am looking for...evidence that the guy's depression was what caused this. Thus far, there has only been speculation, fuelled by sub-editors and headline writers.

It's not the rationale of assessments that bothers me; that seems, on the surface, reasonable.... although I do wonder how it would work in practice, particularly among the self-employed...... it's the fact that so many people have been caught up in a debate about a guy's motivations, on the basis of nothing more than media gossip.

There's been a lot of good debate on this thread, and, like you say, very little is based on ignorance. I do wonder, though, about wider society. Misinformation is where prejudice and discrimination starts.

:top marks

[--------]

I think you're looking for something that no-one has said. Most people with any type or severity of mental illness don't have the opportunity to massacre 149 customers and colleagues with the flick of a switch.

I don't think regular psychological assessment of pilots or other professions where there is the possibility of relatively simple mass murder is a bad idea though.

Almost everyone has been touched directly or indirectly by mental illness so it's not like many of us are talking from complete ignorance either.


:agree:

I would think that regular psychological assessments of airline pilots and people in similar professions is a very good idea indeed. And it should be understood that if the assessor considers that the pilot (for example) isn't fit to fly for whatever reason, then he tells the airline directly rather than handing the guy a sick note and trusting him to hand it in.

Passenger safety over-rides an individual's right to privacy, I'd say.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Louis Theroux looks at the difference between Insanity and Criminality on BBC2 at nine tonight.


:agree:

I would think that regular psychological assessments of airline pilots and people in similar professions is a very good idea indeed. And it should be understood that if the assessor considers that the pilot (for example) isn't fit to fly for whatever reason, then he tells the airline directly rather than handing the guy a sick note and trusting him to hand it in.

Passenger safety over-rides an individual's right to privacy, I'd say.

Should we extend psychological monitoring to include bus drivers, surgeons, teachers and anybody else who has responsibility for other people's lives?

Personally, I think that the tests would be unreliable at best and easily manipulated. Over and above that, how often would the test be done - weekly, monthly or before every flight.

I think we should encourage people to report bizarre behaviour and alarming statements from people in these positions. As I said earlier though, a system that can disarm a criminal flying a plane would be more advisable.

The fact that this guy may or may not have been suffering from Depression is no more an indicator that he was likely to do what he did than anything else is. Who knows he may not have liked the fish he was served for dinner, or was a bit hacked off at his football teams results.

[Beefster]

As I said earlier though, a system that can disarm a criminal flying a plane would be more advisable.

There's a system already for doing just that that hasn't been implemented because of fears of terrorists hacking it or hijacking facilities to bring planes down or folk in positions deciding to do what the co-pilot did last week.

[Just Alf]

There's a system already for doing just that that hasn't been implemented because of fears of terrorists hacking it or hijacking facilities to bring planes down or folk in positions deciding to do what the co-pilot did last week.

Agree, I had a beer with a BA pilot a couple of years ago and at that point BA aircraft could fly Edinburgh to London with no pilot input at all, all he needed to do was flick a switch then walk off the plane.... At the other end someone would board the plane and flick the switch back off..... That was 4-5 years ago, pretty sure its moved forward since :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

Agree, I had a beer with a BA pilot a couple of years ago and at that point BA aircraft could fly Edinburgh to London with no pilot input at all, all he needed to do was flick a switch then walk off the plane.... At the other end someone would board the plane and flick the switch back off..... That was 4-5 years ago, pretty sure its moved forward since :agree:

It's not quite that simple, yet.

[Hibrandenburg]

Decent article?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/germanwings-crash-i-have-depression-that-does-not-make-me-a-psychopath-10141319.html?cmpid=facebook-post

[Phil D. Rolls]

Decent article?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/germanwings-crash-i-have-depression-that-does-not-make-me-a-psychopath-10141319.html?cmpid=facebook-post

Pretty much sums up what we've all been talking about on here. The journalism has been "lazy" and "ignorant", as she said.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2015/03/shock-news-contra-mornings-headlines-people-depression-have-jobs

[lord bunberry]

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2015/03/shock-news-contra-mornings-headlines-people-depression-have-jobs
:top marks