Hillsborough

[Hibby Bairn]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it.

I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent).

I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.

[RyeSloan]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it. I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent). I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.

To be honest I've not followed this either and actually I'm ignorant of quite what the inquiry is trying to determine. I thought it was well known now that the police messed up on the day and that quite simply the preparations and planning for the event were not good enough....I doubt though there was any deliberate actions by anyone to consciously create the terrible events that unfolded.

I appreciate that there was plenty of buck passing after the event and people covering their own backs but that was a long time ago and plenty of investigations and deliberations have taken place since....you have to wonder after so long quite how accurate individual recollections of actions and circumstance can be.

Is there a stated objective of the enquiry?

[Sylar]

He's built a rod for his own back though has he not, by consistently blaming the Liverpool fans up until now, claiming drunken behaviour and fans without tickets were the direct cause? I pose that as a question because I can't claim to be a scholar of Hillsborough like so many football fans are - perhaps Scouse Hibee (who I know has been vocal on the subject in the past for obvious reasons) might elaborate?.

I hope this inquiry/review final get the families who lost their loved ones the justice they seek so they can begin to move on with their lives. I find it utterly galling that they're still fighting for answers/justice.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure what they view as 'justice' - if it's mere accountability, they'll probably receive a degree of that from Duckenfield's 'confession' but I get the impression they'll want to see him charged, imprisoned and left to die in jail.

And his age shouldn't be a factor for sympathy IMO - look at Rolf Harris or the Holocaust perpetrators who have since been captured and tried - mostly frail old men who at one point did something heinously wrong - all their age means is that they've lived a very long time without being prosecuted or held accountable for their actions!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it.

I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent).

I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.

[Godwin's Law Warning]

This is the same defence that was used by representatives of Nazi war criminals.

His failing is not on a par with those crimes, but he has had ample opportunity to set the record straight. Maybe being able to finally admit to his mistakes in public is the first stage towards forgiveness for what happened that day.

Nobody set out to cause the deaths of those people, but their incompetence was the cause of it. I heard a relative on the radio a couple of days ago, and she said it was a good thing that he could admit that he wasn't up to the job.

As for topping himself, I'm sure he's had plenty opportunity to reflect and decide what the right thing to do was [edit: I think he has had long enough to come to terms with it]. Lessons need to be learned and shortcomings have to be acknowledged for everyone involved to move on.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I entered the stand opposite the tunnel via The Leppings Lane End that day and from what I could see there was a good chance people would've died outside if the gates hadn't been opened. Unfortunately once inside most fans headed to the central pen behind the goals when there was plenty space in the two side pens. More Police Officers/Stewards directly through the gates could well have averted such a tragedy.

[Scouse Hibee]

I entered the stand opposite the tunnel via The Leppings Lane End that day and from what I could see there was a good chance people would've died outside if the gates hadn't been opened. Unfortunately once inside most fans headed to the central pen behind the goals when there was plenty space in the two side pens. More Police Officers/Stewards directly through the gates could well have averted such a tragedy.


I find today's headlines and the answering of those questions by Duckenfield that have lead to the headlines bring me no comfort what so ever and dare I say it a feeling of saying hindsight is a great thing. Yes you can question his actions and the so called experts who were in charge of Policing the match that day, but those questions put to him today were easy to ask and answer after the fact. The crush outside that day, and indeed at the same ground the year before and in the same centre pens was frightening to say the least. Lessons weren't learned from the year before which strangely has never really been raised as an issue, I for one feared for my safety in the crush in the centre pens the year before against the same opposition and for that reason alone did not go in the terracing on that fateful day. I still struggle to watch coverage and listen to accounts of the day so god only knows how Duckenfield is coping with the consequences of his actions. Hopefully the families will finally gain their much wanted closure at the end of this process knowing that justice has finally been served with the truth and accountability being recognised which is all they ever wanted.

[Pretty Boy]

I find today's headlines and the answering of those questions by Duckenfield that have lead to the headlines bring me no comfort what so ever and dare I say it a feeling of saying hindsight is a great thing. Yes you can question his actions and the so called experts who were in charge of Policing the match that day, but those questions put to him today were easy to ask and answer after the fact. The crush outside that day, and indeed at the same ground the year before and in the same centre pens was frightening to say the least. Lessons weren't learned from the year before which strangely has never really been raised as an issue, I for one feared for my safety in the crush in the centre pens the year before against the same opposition and for that reason alone did not go in the terracing on that fateful day. I still struggle to watch coverage and listen to accounts of the day so god only knows how Duckenfield is coping with the consequences of his actions. Hopefully the families will finally gain their much wanted closure at the end of this process knowing that justice has finally been served with the truth and accountability being recognised which is all they ever wanted.

You can actually go back to 1981 for the 1st example of overcrowding in the central pens in the Leppings Lane End. Spurs v Wolves FA Cup semi final. There's footage on Youtube. Fans climbing over the fences to escape crushing, the footage clearly shows Spurs fans streaming out of the end when the Police finally opened gates. The game finished with hundreds of fans sitting around the pitchside.

Hillsborough wasn't a case of Police being caught unaware by a situation that couldn't be predicted. It had happened before and that time they did the one thing that could have saved lives in 1989, opened the gates at pitchside. As you say the year before came very close to disaster as well. This wasn't a case of a mistake it was gross incompetence, partly brought about by an institutional prejudice against football fans. I don't think the blame for that can be laid at the feet of one person.

I hope this inquest brings about some kind of 'closure' for all involved and the truth is finally on public record for all to see.

[Hibrandenburg]

There were many links in the chain that led to the disaster, Duckenfield was but one of them.

[lord bunberry]

Forgive my ignorance but is this enquiry not more about finding out about police, politicians and medical professionals lying and trying to cover up what really happened that day?

[JeMeSouviens]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it.

I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent).

I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.

So apart from his rank incompetence causing 96 deaths, his lying to shift the blame onto the victims and smear other innocents and his 25 years of living that lie while their relatives suffered, quite a decent bloke?

Seriously? :rolleyes:

[Kato]

Forgive my ignorance but is this enquiry not more about finding out about police, politicians and medical professionals lying and trying to cover up what really happened that day?

It's still got a year or so to go I think.

[Greentinted]

So apart from his rank incompetence causing 96 deaths, his lying to shift the blame onto the victims and smear other innocents and his 25 years of living that lie while their relatives suffered, quite a decent bloke?

Seriously? :rolleyes:

Well observed.
If he is such a paragon of decency then surely his integrity would demand he serve 96 life sentences. Vile excuse of a police officer, even worse as a man.

[Kato]

Well observed.
If he is such a paragon of decency then surely his integrity would demand he serve 96 life sentences. Vile excuse of a police officer, even worse as a man.

His testimony has been laced with self-pity. He's also had to be almost harangued into dropping some of his earlier accusations re-"supporters fault", which he switched to "partly to blame" before arriving at "my fault". He says he has had see Doctors for therapy in order to speak about his actions back then. The paranoid part of me thnks, "Aye, Spin Doctors."

As a human being I do actually feel sorry for him having to live with what he has done, his actions, or inaction, and subsequent lies being down to ego, hubris and the macho culture of the police. I feel sorry but no pity. Still want him to see justice, he deserves the jail.

[Purple & Green]

So apart from his rank incompetence causing 96 deaths, his lying to shift the blame onto the victims and smear other innocents and his 25 years of living that lie while their relatives suffered, quite a decent bloke?

Seriously? :rolleyes:

I think there are two very clear parts here - the criminal incompetence that occurred n the day and secondly the deceit and conspiracy that happened for years afterwards.

Suppressing the truth for a generation shouldn't allow the guilty to be admonished.

[JimBHibees]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it.

I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent).

I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.

No sympathy for him at all. The cover up which he was happy to go along with was despicable including blaming innocent fans, police leaking to the press which perpetrated the infamous Sun headline about liverpool fans peeing on and stealing from dead bodies, the 315 cut off time even though there was evidence of some of the dead being alive nearer 4, the bullying of witnesses to change their statements and the first inquiry which was nothing more than a whitewash. He has had 25 years to come clean and hasn't while the families have had to work tirelessly to get any justice with many relatives dying without hearing the truth. Quite simply the most disgusting establishment cover up ever.

[McD]

Just read the BBC report on the questioning of David Duckenfield. He admits to 'causing the death of 96 people' as the headline puts it.

I admit to not having followed every bit of detail of this tragedy over the past 25 years or so but I just find something wrong with this kind of questioning of a 70 year old man (who otherwise seems decent).

I do understand the sorrow and justice campaign. But I just think this guy could easily go home and end it all tonight. So much pressure on an old man.


It needed that kind of questioning, since here we are (the 96 aren't), almost 26 years later, and only just now beginning to see some kind of truth come out, a truth this man, 70 years old or not, has wilfully hidden.

As as others have said, a man who 'seems decent', so decent apparently, he's let those families live with the smear of the Sun's lies, and blamed their love ones, whilst avoiding telling the truth.

I still find it upsetting to see footage or read accounts even now, I was just a boy when Hillsborough happened. A tragedy that needn't have happened, as has been pointed out already. That these families have suffered even more so for so long, is despicable.

[steakbake]

No sympathy for him at all. The cover up which he was happy to go along with was despicable including blaming innocent fans, police leaking to the press which perpetrated the infamous Sun headline about liverpool fans peeing on and stealing from dead bodies, the 315 cut off time even though there was evidence of some of the dead being alive nearer 4, the bullying of witnesses to change their statements and the first inquiry which was nothing more than a whitewash. He has had 25 years to come clean and hasn't while the families have had to work tirelessly to get any justice with many relatives dying without hearing the truth. Quite simply the most disgusting establishment cover up ever.

Totally with you until that last statement - there's more to come, of that I am certain. But at least this one is finally out in the open.

[--------]

There were many links in the chain that led to the disaster, Duckenfield was but one of them.


He was Match Commander. The buck stops with him.

His decision to open the gates at the Leppings Lane End of the ground was the direct cause of 96 deaths.

He lied about that decision, and he collaborated in the denigration of the characters of the dead.

I have some sympathy for Duckenfield - a more experienced officer should have been appointed to that match than him.

But he and his fellow police officers have covered up their own mistakes and miscalculations of that day by lying about their own actions and making false allegations about the dead being violent, drunken hooligans who caused their own deaths by their own misconduct.

Twenty-six years (nearly) is far too long to leave families searching for the truth about their loved ones' deaths. He should have spoken long ago.

[Hibrandenburg]

He was Match Commander. The buck stops with him.

His decision to open the gates at the Leppings Lane End of 'the ground was the direct cause of 96 deaths.

He lied about that decision, and he collaborated in the denigration of the characters of the dead.

I have some sympathy for Duckenfield - a more experienced officer should have been appointed to that match than him.

But he and his fellow police officers have covered up their own mistakes and miscalculations of that day by lying about their own actions and making false allegations about the dead being violent, drunken hooligans who caused their own deaths by their own misconduct.

Twenty-six years (nearly) is far too long to leave families searching for the truth about their loved ones' deaths. He should have spoken long ago.

You're correct when you say the buck stops with him but as with most disasters there was a chain of events that led to it. Break one or more of the links in that chain then you stand a chance of avoiding the disaster.

The fact that he lied for so long is unforgivable, but again he won't be the only one who knew and deviated from the truth.

[Killiehibbie]

One of the most distressing events I have ever witnessed caused by the inability of the police to prevent it. No matter how long ago it was criminal charges should be brought against the guilty. Even more disgusting than the incompetence of the police that day was the cover up.

[Scouse Hibee]

Surprised to see Margaret Aspinall and Trevor Hicks accepting CBE's at the palace today. I would have told the establishment to shove them!

[JimBHibees]

Surprised to see Margaret Aspinall and Trevor Hicks accepting CBE's at the palace today. I would have told the establishment to shove them!

Totally agree.