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southsider
13-03-2015, 02:02 PM
Scott in current bun this am. Bombed out his head on Wednesday night p-up. If I were celtic manager I would suspend him for two weeks. Thoughts ?

WillowbraeHibby
13-03-2015, 02:17 PM
An interesting one right enough... Ronny will no doubt give him a stern talking to... But not publicly!! :drunk: ... Gone yersel' Broony.. :greengrin

Ozyhibby
13-03-2015, 02:20 PM
I think the appropriate punishment would be a suspension till they are knocked out the Scottish cup. :greengrin

S4uzee
13-03-2015, 02:21 PM
It must be an old photo. The hair doesn't match up from photos taken a few days ago for the press

TowerHibs
13-03-2015, 02:22 PM
Non story yet again

Sun is truly scrapping the barrel for stories, this and the novo riding a celtic fan.

To think Gordon Smart is the editor too, good Hibee and decent guy. Sold himself a bit

hibee-boys
13-03-2015, 02:51 PM
I'm glad he's at Celtic now, Burke & Hare?.....not Hibs class!:)

Smartie
13-03-2015, 02:53 PM
It's not like Scott Brown right enough.

I know he likes the odd "blow-out" but not the Wednesday before a cup final in the goldfish bowl that is Glasgow. Bloody stupid if it was him.

As regards Gordon Smart, his job is to create a paper that sells copies. In terms of entertaining their readership it doesn't come much bigger than Old Firm stars disgracing themselves. It may not to be all our tastes but I'm sure his bosses wouldn't be too chuffed if he overlooked this sort of stuff.

Edit….. just saw that it was Edinburgh. Still bloody stupid and unlikely to get away with it.

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 03:01 PM
Non story yet again

Sun is truly scrapping the barrel for stories, this and the novo riding a celtic fan.

To think Gordon Smart is the editor too, good Hibee and decent guy. Sold himself a bit

Doesn't matter if he's a hibby or not - it's the Sun he's in charge of. They've got to cater to their audience.

oneone73
13-03-2015, 03:07 PM
Doesn't matter if he's a hibby or not - it's the Sun he's in charge of. They've got to cater to their audience.

Scott Brown is a Smeltic player. Nothing to do with Hibs.

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 03:16 PM
Scott Brown is a Smeltic player. Nothing to do with Hibs.

Yes I know. The editor of the Sun's a hibby though.

exHIBition
13-03-2015, 03:18 PM
Scott Brown is a Smeltic player. Nothing to do with Hibs.

I think the Hibee reference was to Gordon Smart and not Scott Brown.

Scouse Hibee
13-03-2015, 03:24 PM
How anyone who classes themselves as a football fan could take a job as editor of that rag is beyond me.

jdships
13-03-2015, 03:55 PM
Scott Brown is a Smeltic player. Nothing to do with Hibs.

:top marks
" Yesterdays man "

Kojock
13-03-2015, 04:43 PM
Non story yet again

Sun is truly scrapping the barrel for stories, this and the novo riding a celtic fan.

To think Gordon Smart is the editor too, good Hibee and decent guy. Sold himself a bit

Non story ??? Celtic and Scotland captain smashed out his head 4 days before a cup final is a story. Whether its worthy of a front page is another argument altogether.

lyonhibs
13-03-2015, 04:52 PM
Non story ??? Celtic and Scotland captain smashed out his head 4 days before a cup final is a story. Whether its worthy of a front page is another argument altogether.

He was just having a wee seat. Inner ear imbalance issue, don't you know ?

Personally couldn't care less. If it were 4 days before a big Scotland game, that would be different

Smartie
13-03-2015, 05:01 PM
He was just having a wee seat. Inner ear imbalance issue, don't you know ?

Personally couldn't care less. If it were 4 days before a big Scotland game, that would be different

It's a huge story.

There will be people out there, like yourself, who couldn't care less.

But Celtic fans, The Rangers fans, Dundee United fans, Scotland fans and scandal fans will be interested in this.

Spike Mandela
13-03-2015, 05:03 PM
Willing to bet he will be MOTM in the cup final.

greenginger
13-03-2015, 05:20 PM
Sitting down right enough, but the picture does not show him being off his skull.

Maybe just resting his legs, or getting his gear back in his y-fronts. :greengrin


https://www.facebook.com/thescottishsun/photos/pb.273587472675761.-2207520000.1426266981./970028049698363/?type=1&theater

silverhibee
13-03-2015, 05:22 PM
Yes I know. The editor of the Sun's a hibby though.

Douglas Walker Sun reporter is a yam and loves to troll kickback for his stories about Hibs players and ex ones too.

NORTHERNHIBBY
13-03-2015, 05:31 PM
The thing to keep in mind is that if the story is in the The Sun, there can be no questions that every single sentence is true. IMO The Sun is a fantastic paper and only Andrex comes close.

Kojock
13-03-2015, 05:36 PM
The thing to keep in mind is that if the story is in the The Sun, there can be no questions that every single sentence is true. IMO The Sun is a fantastic paper and only Andrex comes close.

If there is no truth in the story I'm sure Scott Brown will sue. Won't hold my breath waiting on that tho.

21.05.2016
13-03-2015, 05:58 PM
Was this really worthy a full front page story, deary me :rolleyes:


A footballer pissed up the town - hardly huge breaking news is it. I dare say Deila will be having words about his public conduct but The **** newspaper once again turning an absolute non-story into a bigger issue than it is.

Smartie
13-03-2015, 06:41 PM
I can't believe people don't think this is a big story.

We're still talking about Russell Latapy going out a couple of nights before a derby 15 years ago.

A lot has been made of Deila's fitness regime, banning chips and fizzy drinks etc whilst he tries to get his team fit.

The Celtic and Scotland captain goes out and gets blootered, visiting strip clubs and eating a load of rubbish 4 days before a cup final.

In these days of higher standards of behaviour, better diet etc it is a ridiculous thing for Brown to do, and will be of great interest to many of the readers of that newspaper.

I heard that Lawwell has been unhappy about how Celtic players "out and about" are reporting on by the tabloid press. This stuff plays into their hands and is asking for trouble.

I don't know much about what else is happening in the world that it is keeping off the front page but if I were the editor of a national newspaper and this dropped on my desk I'd be rubbing my hands.

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 06:45 PM
I can't believe people don't think this is a big story.

We're still talking about Russell Latapy going out a couple of nights before a derby 15 years ago.

A lot has been made of Deila's fitness regime, banning chips and fizzy drinks etc whilst he tries to get his team fit.

The Celtic and Scotland captain goes out and gets blootered, visiting strip clubs and eating a load of rubbish 4 days before a cup final.

In these days of higher standards of behaviour, better diet etc it is a ridiculous thing for Brown to do, and will be of great interest to many of the readers of that newspaper.

I heard that Lawwell has been unhappy about how Celtic players "out and about" are reporting on by the tabloid press. This stuff plays into their hands and is asking for trouble.

I don't know much about what else is happening in the world that it is keeping off the front page but if I were the editor of a national newspaper and this dropped on my desk I'd be rubbing my hands.

:agree: and if I had seen him sitting in the street like that I'd have taken photos and sold them on as well. It's obviously a story.

berwickhibee
13-03-2015, 06:51 PM
How anyone who classes themselves as a football fan could take a job as editor of that rag is beyond me.

im with you scouse, no football fan should buy that rag.

21.05.2016
13-03-2015, 06:54 PM
I can't believe people don't think this is a big story.

We're still talking about Russell Latapy going out a couple of nights before a derby 15 years ago.

A lot has been made of Deila's fitness regime, banning chips and fizzy drinks etc whilst he tries to get his team fit.

The Celtic and Scotland captain goes out and gets blootered, visiting strip clubs and eating a load of rubbish 4 days before a cup final.

In these days of higher standards of behaviour, better diet etc it is a ridiculous thing for Brown to do, and will be of great interest to many of the readers of that newspaper.

I heard that Lawwell has been unhappy about how Celtic players "out and about" are reporting on by the tabloid press. This stuff plays into their hands and is asking for trouble.

I don't know much about what else is happening in the world that it is keeping off the front page but if I were the editor of a national newspaper and this dropped on my desk I'd be rubbing my hands.

I get what you mean and I agree but a full front page spread on it? Really?

Allant1981
13-03-2015, 06:55 PM
im with you scouse, no football fan should buy that rag.

Please do tell what newspaper i should buy then?

Jim44
13-03-2015, 07:18 PM
Please do tell what newspaper i should buy then?

Isn't it amazing how the quality or truth of content spouted out by so-called rags is very much dependent on what you want to hear?

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 07:36 PM
im with you scouse, no football fan should buy that rag.

:agree: the Hillsborough coverage was a disgrace.

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 07:37 PM
Please do tell what newspaper i should buy then?

The independent, the guardian?

Or just any apart from the Sun?

bingo70
13-03-2015, 07:48 PM
:agree: the Hillsborough coverage was a disgrace.

The thing I don't get about that is that it's been confirmed the top policeman at the time was pedaling the lies that went to print.

If I was the editor of the sun I'd think that would be about as good a source as you could get.

Allant1981
13-03-2015, 07:51 PM
The independent, the guardian?

Or just any apart from the Sun?

Yip cause im sure these "newspapers" have never printed rubbish in them before. I dont actually read the sun i just find it quite patronising that people come on here saying if your a football fan you shouldnt read this or that,most newspapers today are ALL full of crap

heretoday
13-03-2015, 08:03 PM
If Celtic had any real competition this would be a story but as things stand he'll win a medal on Sunday without too much bother.

silverhibee
13-03-2015, 08:10 PM
:agree: and if I had seen him sitting in the street like that I'd have taken photos and sold them on as well. It's obviously a story.

:shocked:

HibbyAndy
13-03-2015, 08:14 PM
If Celtic had any real competition this would be a story but as things stand he'll win a medal on Sunday without too much bother.



IIRC No one gave Killie a chance 2 or 3 years ago.

Killie won 1-0.

Danderhall Hibs
13-03-2015, 09:11 PM
Yip cause im sure these "newspapers" have never printed rubbish in them before. I dont actually read the sun i just find it quite patronising that people come on here saying if your a football fan you shouldnt read this or that,most newspapers today are ALL full of crap

Don't be patronised just read about their coverage then tell me what other papers have done that's worse?

givescotlandfreedom
14-03-2015, 12:49 AM
It's pretty unprofessional that any athletes behave like that shortly before a big event but John Collins and Paul Le Guen lost that battle.

gorgie greens
14-03-2015, 06:28 AM
Scott Brown is a Smeltic player. Nothing to do with Hibs.

Aye maybe now ,but was he not first or one of the first of the big signings that gave every penny of his massive signing fee to Hibs when he left to join Celtic and has always had a desire to come back and play with Hibs,i for one will be happy to welcome him back to ER when and if that day does come ,hopefully he will still have enough left to get fans off their feet again,im sure he will even if it's taking a jambo out :greengrin

Springbank
14-03-2015, 06:53 AM
If dufc can win one of their three meetings let it be the Scottish cup tie

That's all I care about as a Hibee

pontius pilate
14-03-2015, 07:48 AM
If dufc can win one of their three meetings let it be the Scottish cup tie

That's all I care about as a Hibee

Said that to my mate yesterday out them all i hope they beat them in the replay

Hibby Bairn
14-03-2015, 08:03 AM
Of course this is a 'story'. He is captain of a team that plays each year in the Champions League and is also (I think) captain of Scotland.

And here he is slumbered in the street bevvied.

Role model, professional sportsman, ambassador to charities, cup final on Sunday and Scotland matches up and coming.

He deserves all the adverse publicity he gets and imo should be publicly censured by Celtic and Scotland managers.

GordonHFC
14-03-2015, 08:04 AM
Remember this is a good news story week for the The Huns (I can call them that coz I'm a protestant) so any crap on others makes them look squeaky clean in the eyes of the Scottish meedja.

superfurryhibby
14-03-2015, 08:17 AM
Of course this is a 'story'. He is captain of a team that plays each year in the Champions League and is also (I think) captain of Scotland.

And here he is slumbered in the street bevvied.

Role model, professional sportsman, ambassador to charities, cup final on Sunday and Scotland matches up and coming.

He deserves all the adverse publicity he gets and imo should be publicly censured by Celtic and Scotland managers.

I agree that it's newsworthy, in that typically tabloid approach to deciding what we need to know about. However, ambassador to charities and forthcoming Scotland games are stretching it way too far. Personally, I would rather the media focused on the extent to which our political leaders are shafting us for every penny we have and at the same time ensuring that the rich and very rich benefit at everyone else's expense.

So yes, it's a shocking story, I'm outraged and in a Tabloid induced frenzy of moral indignation.

Opium for the people

Phil D. Rolls
14-03-2015, 09:23 AM
I can't believe people don't think this is a big story.

We're still talking about Russell Latapy going out a couple of nights before a derby 15 years ago.

A lot has been made of Deila's fitness regime, banning chips and fizzy drinks etc whilst he tries to get his team fit.

The Celtic and Scotland captain goes out and gets blootered, visiting strip clubs and eating a load of rubbish 4 days before a cup final.

In these days of higher standards of behaviour, better diet etc it is a ridiculous thing for Brown to do, and will be of great interest to many of the readers of that newspaper.

I heard that Lawwell has been unhappy about how Celtic players "out and about" are reporting on by the tabloid press. This stuff plays into their hands and is asking for trouble.

I don't know much about what else is happening in the world that it is keeping off the front page but if I were the editor of a national newspaper and this dropped on my desk I'd be rubbing my hands.

Any idea what percentage of loss off fitness he will lose by doing this? I can't imagine it would be much.

We are talking four days to the game. I can't see how a fit athlete couldn't recover in that period. Who knows maybe having a blow out will improve his mental state.

Jack
14-03-2015, 09:33 AM
I agree that it's newsworthy, in that typically tabloid approach to deciding what we need to know about. However, ambassador to charities and forthcoming Scotland games are stretching it way too far. Personally, I would rather the media focused on the extent to which our political leaders are shafting us for every penny we have and at the same time ensuring that the rich and very rich benefit at everyone else's expense.

So yes, it's a shocking story, I'm outraged and in a Tabloid induced frenzy of moral indignation.

Opium for the people

I agree with you and it's not as if Scotty broke any laws.

I wonder who's phone they hacked to get that photo?

Pretty Boy
14-03-2015, 09:44 AM
Let's be honest it's a story, whether it's a front page story is another matter.

Brown allegedly has previous as well, he was widely rumoured to be the ringleader of the drinking session that got McGreggor and Ferguson into bother.

sleeping giant
14-03-2015, 09:49 AM
Aye maybe now ,but was he not first or one of the first of the big signings that gave every penny of his massive signing fee to Hibs when he left to join Celtic and has always had a desire to come back and play with Hibs,i for one will be happy to welcome him back to ER when and if that day does come ,hopefully he will still have enough left to get fans off their feet again,im sure he will even if it's taking a jambo out :greengrin

You sure he gave his signing on fee to Hibs ?

Heard this about other players but I don't think that's true either.

LaMotta
14-03-2015, 10:29 AM
Any idea what percentage of loss off fitness he will lose by doing this? I can't imagine it would be much.

We are talking four days to the game. I can't see how a fit athlete couldn't recover in that period. Who knows maybe having a blow out will improve his mental state.

Agree. Several members of Mcleish's hibs team were in eros and elite nightclub downing voddy and red bulls and smoking regal king size 4 days before the six two game in Oct 2000. Didnt effect their performance too much on the Sunday!

Read niall quinns book recently and he put in some great performances during matches despite going on marathon arsenal drinking binges in the days before.

Gazza drinking at half time during games, goram Motm in Hibs hearts ny derby after being blootered the night before.....

Alcohol no doubt has a negative effect on some but if Brown feels he can drink on a Wednesday and put in a performance on a Sunday then im sure he will.

21.05.2016
14-03-2015, 10:50 AM
It's pretty unprofessional that any athletes behave like that shortly before a big event but John Collins and Paul Le Guen lost that battle.

:agree: Collins tried to get rid of the binge culture at hibs and create a healthier team and should have recieved a lot more support from Petrie. His idea was right, unfortunately he had too many players unwilling to co-operate along with a few snakes and **** stirrers in that dressing room

blackpoolhibs
14-03-2015, 10:52 AM
:agree: Collins tried to get rid of the binge culture at hibs and create a healthier team and should have recieved a lot more support from Petrie. His idea was right, unfortunately he had too many players unwilling to co-operate along with a few snakes and **** stirrers in that dressing room

In what way did Petrie not support Collins?

21.05.2016
14-03-2015, 10:58 AM
In what way did Petrie not support Collins?

He should have told the players to man up and get on with it and support Collins regime or get out. A disgrace the way Collins was turned on simply for promoting more discipline and high levels of fitness. I believe there was unrest and players moaning when Collins banned alcohol from their training trip abroad not long before the cup final.

blackpoolhibs
14-03-2015, 11:05 AM
He should have told the players to man up and get on with it and support Collins regime or get out. A disgrace the way Collins was turned on simply for promoting more discipline and high levels of fitness. I believe there was unrest and players moaning when Collins banned alcohol from their training trip abroad not long before the cup final.


How do you know he didnt?

Smartie
14-03-2015, 11:06 AM
Any idea what percentage of loss off fitness he will lose by doing this? I can't imagine it would be much.

We are talking four days to the game. I can't see how a fit athlete couldn't recover in that period. Who knows maybe having a blow out will improve his mental state.

Is that you Terry?

I thought football had moved on. Listen to a lot of Stubbs' talk about the players being performance athletes rather than players playing a game. Would Andy Murray or Mo Farrah expect to put in an adequate athletic performance 4 days after a bevvy session like that?

Very small advantages, "the sum of marginal differences" can make the world of difference in sport. I think that is what Delia is getting at with his chips and fizzy juice stuff. Clubs in the UK have banned things as simple as ketchup, so a blowout on this scale, at this time, against that backdrop is quite significant.

A big bevvy can have a major effect on the body, the quality of sleep, the ability to train etc for days after. So I think 4 days is significant.

I probably wouldn't mind a player having a few a week before a game. And if they want to go nuts during the close season then that is their call. But this close to a game, let alone a cup final is madness.

As an aside, does anyone know if being an "athlete" makes it easier or quicker to shrug off the effects of alcohol? I would have thought the best people to bounce back from a bevy session would be alcoholics or heavy drinkers whose bodies and conditioned to process alcohol quickly rather than an athlete whose liver will normally have a very different load to deal with.

silverhibee
14-03-2015, 11:09 AM
:agree: Collins tried to get rid of the binge culture at hibs and create a healthier team and should have recieved a lot more support from Petrie. His idea was right, unfortunately he had too many players unwilling to co-operate along with a few snakes and **** stirrers in that dressing room

Was it the same at the other clubs he managed after he left Hibs.

Still a legend for winning the cup and a day i will never forget being there with my Dad and my son, a wee tear in my Dads eye that day after we had won a cup and my old man with his son and Grandson with him to see Hibs lift a trophy.

He might be a good coach but he really never hit it off as a manager.

21.05.2016
14-03-2015, 11:15 AM
How do you know he didnt?

Collins I believe left because his vision for the club was not fully being supported. I think its pretty obvious what side Petrie took.

Smartie
14-03-2015, 11:22 AM
Was it the same at the other clubs he managed after he left Hibs.

Still a legend for winning the cup and a day i will never forget being there with my Dad and my son, a wee tear in my Dads eye that day after we had won a cup and my old man with his son and Grandson with him to see Hibs lift a trophy.

He might be a good coach but he really never hit it off as a manager.

:agree:

I think there was fault on every side to be honest - Collins, Petrie and the players.

I'm not sure what happened during the "round to the house" incident but it is harsh that Petrie is still getting flak for that. I felt he did back his manager there.

Where he maybe didn't back him so well was in the transfer market. Yes, I know he let him spend on Ma-Kalambay and O'Brien etc (v. poor signings) but the transfer windows all the way through to last summer were all disappointing so that would suggest that maybe problems were there, even then. We have consistently replaced better players with cut price replacements. As Collins was only there for a year it is hard to say but I wonder if Petrie might have done more in that respect.

Collins walked too soon. It is therefore impossible for us to analyse how much he was at fault. If you are to bring about the fitness changes he was suggesting you have to have a belief, a confidence and a determination to see it through and not walk at the first sign of trouble. Because there will be trouble along the way, that is guaranteed.

The players who wouldn't co-operate also deserve criticism.

It's a shame that managers who seem to take this approach seem not to be able to see it through (Le Guen etc). Because imo the appeasement and acceptance of poor levels of professionalism has held our game back years in this country. Hopefully with the likes of Stubbs, Delia and Neilson that is about to change.

Phil D. Rolls
14-03-2015, 11:24 AM
:agree: Collins tried to get rid of the binge culture at hibs and create a healthier team and should have recieved a lot more support from Petrie. His idea was right, unfortunately he had too many players unwilling to co-operate along with a few snakes and **** stirrers in that dressing room

FACT


Is that you Terry?

I thought football had moved on. Listen to a lot of Stubbs' talk about the players being performance athletes rather than players playing a game. Would Andy Murray or Mo Farrah expect to put in an adequate athletic performance 4 days after a bevvy session like that?

Very small advantages, "the sum of marginal differences" can make the world of difference in sport. I think that is what Delia is getting at with his chips and fizzy juice stuff. Clubs in the UK have banned things as simple as ketchup, so a blowout on this scale, at this time, against that backdrop is quite significant.

A big bevvy can have a major effect on the body, the quality of sleep, the ability to train etc for days after. So I think 4 days is significant.

I probably wouldn't mind a player having a few a week before a game. And if they want to go nuts during the close season then that is their call. But this close to a game, let alone a cup final is madness.

As an aside, does anyone know if being an "athlete" makes it easier or quicker to shrug off the effects of alcohol? I would have thought the best people to bounce back from a bevy session would be alcoholics or heavy drinkers whose bodies and conditioned to process alcohol quickly rather than an athlete whose liver will normally have a very different load to deal with.

While I'm very interested to hear what you think, I'd be even more interested if anybody could provide objective, double blind, peer reviewed evidence.

The fact is that Brown is being castigated because people believe that getting that extra .000001% fitness is all important in improving performance. When the goal is to finish a race .000001 of a second faster than your opponent - maybe. When the objective is for one team to score more goals than the other team, less so.

How many games are lost because nerves, or tension get the better of the players?

As for your last paragraph, the answer is that the fitter body will deal with the effects of alcohol quicker than the one damaged by excessive drinking. What makes you think that alcoholics bodies are "conditioned" to process alcohol quicker?

blackpoolhibs
14-03-2015, 11:24 AM
Collins I believe left because his vision for the club was not fully being supported. I think its pretty obvious what side Petrie took.

So you are just guessing? When the players went to Petries house, him being the end of the line was duty bound to listen to them, especially when Collins was apparently out of the country at the time.

According to a friend who was on the coaching staff at the time, Petrie told the players that Collins was in charge, and he was the one who they should take any grievance they had up with, but Collins had his 100% support in how he was running things.

As usual Petrie was wrong, but if you are going to slaughter him at least do it with the truth, there's enough of it out there.

21.05.2016
14-03-2015, 11:27 AM
So you are just guessing? When the players went to Petries house, him being the end of the line was duty bound to listen to them, especially when Collins was apparently out of the country at the time.

According to a friend who was on the coaching staff at the time, Petrie told the players that Collins was in charge, and he was the one who they should take any grievance they had up with, but Collins had his 100% support in how he was running things.

As usual Petrie was wrong, but if you are going to slaughter him at least do it with the truth, there's enough of it out there.

Not guessing at all, just going by stories i've heard. Might be true might not be but I can only go on what i've been told

Smartie
14-03-2015, 11:33 AM
FACT



While I'm very interested to hear what you think, I'd be even more interested if anybody could provide objective, double blind, peer reviewed evidence.

The fact is that Brown is being castigated because people believe that getting that extra .000001% fitness is all important in improving performance. When the goal is to finish a race .000001 of a second faster than your opponent - maybe. When the objective is for one team to score more goals than the other team, less so.

How many games are lost because nerves, or tension get the better of the players?

As for your last paragraph, the answer is that the fitter body will deal with the effects of alcohol quicker than the one damaged by excessive drinking. What makes you think that alcoholics bodies are "conditioned" to process alcohol quicker?

I was asking the question, I'm honestly not sure.

I was not thinking so much about an alcoholics ragged liver but a regular drinker's liver. A steady drinker's liver will be more used to processing alcohol than someone who does less regularly (Brown presumably doesn't drink that much).

My evidence base is unfortunately only my own experiences with alcohol and anecdote. But it would be interesting if there was any evidence of the quality you describe.

4 days before a cup final though, I wouldn't be taking the chance. Imagine Brown gets the legs run off him tomorrow, think of the criticism he'll get then.

Phil D. Rolls
14-03-2015, 11:57 AM
I was asking the question, I'm honestly not sure.

I was not thinking so much about an alcoholics ragged liver but a regular drinker's liver. A steady drinker's liver will be more used to processing alcohol than someone who does less regularly (Brown presumably doesn't drink that much).

My evidence base is unfortunately only my own experiences with alcohol and anecdote. But it would be interesting if there was any evidence of the quality you describe.

4 days before a cup final though, I wouldn't be taking the chance. Imagine Brown gets the legs run off him tomorrow, think of the criticism he'll get then.

I would honestly be interested as to what evidence there is, as well. If we keep going the way we are, we'll be analysing the benefits of how much daylight players get, and which direction they sleep in.

In my experience, the fitter somebody is, the quicker they can repair their body. I also know from experience, that highly tuned athletes get drunk quicker than regular drinkers, and that when I was younger and fitter, I could run off a hangover.

Pretty Boy
14-03-2015, 11:59 AM
Collins I believe left because his vision for the club was not fully being supported. I think its pretty obvious what side Petrie took.

It's obvious he took the side of the manager considering he remained in place and several of the alleged ringleaders of the 'revolt' were moved on at the earliest opportunity.

Peevemor
14-03-2015, 12:01 PM
FACT



While I'm very interested to hear what you think, I'd be even more interested if anybody could provide objective, double blind, peer reviewed evidence.

The fact is that Brown is being castigated because people believe that getting that extra .000001% fitness is all important in improving performance. When the goal is to finish a race .000001 of a second faster than your opponent - maybe. When the objective is for one team to score more goals than the other team, less so.

How many games are lost because nerves, or tension get the better of the players?

As for your last paragraph, the answer is that the fitter body will deal with the effects of alcohol quicker than the one damaged by excessive drinking. What makes you think that alcoholics bodies are "conditioned" to process alcohol quicker?

Exactly. Alcoholics and non alcoholics who drink to excess regularly simply get used to feeling like crap.

Matty_Jack04
14-03-2015, 12:23 PM
I know extended family of broonys, haven't met the guy he's not my mate but the truths of the story are, he was out on wed had a few drinks and was home and in bed by 11pm it's hardly an all night drinking session and certainly not worthy of 2 days worth of front page news it sums up the sun an absolute rag of a paper

Sudds_1
14-03-2015, 12:29 PM
It's a huge story.

There will be people out there, like yourself, who couldn't care less.

But Celtic fans, The Rangers fans, Dundee United fans, Scotland fans and scandal fans will be interested in this.

...............and desk fans, electric fans, paper fans, fan dancers, fanzines, fanaticals.............fannies? :-)

CRAZYHIBBY
14-03-2015, 12:56 PM
Glad you enjoyed your night out scott.....more than entitled to get rat arsed if he wants to

blackpoolhibs
14-03-2015, 01:15 PM
Not guessing at all, just going by stories i've heard. Might be true might not be but I can only go on what i've been told


What were you told? :confused:

Chibs
14-03-2015, 03:19 PM
How anyone who classes themselves as a football fan could take a job as editor of that rag is beyond me.
Totally agree with this.

monktonharp
14-03-2015, 10:54 PM
:agree: and if I had seen him sitting in the street like that I'd have taken photos and sold them on as well. It's obviously a story.If you'd sold on these alleged pictures to the SUN , you would not be flavour of the month around Danderhall. or in Liverpool. those barstrewards............sorry, I'll correct my comment, those lying barstewards that purport to be a national (or Scottish) paper, which ever suits their needs at the time, printed almost daily lies about the Miners, during the strike in the 80's. where many in your village were involved!. then, almost immediately after the Hillsburgh disaster they printed unmentionable lies about the people of Liverpool. I am still amazed, nay, disgusted to see that many in Scotland still buy that paper. I'd rather buy the beano, or the dandy, a bloody good read in comparison. and yet, I daily drive by loads of vans, with a young joiner outside the van, pacing up and doon the street on his phone to the gaffer while his fat mate is in the van stuffin' his face wi' a bacon roll while reading the SUN. sums it up for me.

silverhibee
14-03-2015, 11:31 PM
:agree:

I think there was fault on every side to be honest - Collins, Petrie and the players.

I'm not sure what happened during the "round to the house" incident but it is harsh that Petrie is still getting flak for that. I felt he did back his manager there.

Where he maybe didn't back him so well was in the transfer market. Yes, I know he let him spend on Ma-Kalambay and O'Brien etc (v. poor signings) but the transfer windows all the way through to last summer were all disappointing so that would suggest that maybe problems were there, even then. We have consistently replaced better players with cut price replacements. As Collins was only there for a year it is hard to say but I wonder if Petrie might have done more in that respect.

Collins walked too soon. It is therefore impossible for us to analyse how much he was at fault. If you are to bring about the fitness changes he was suggesting you have to have a belief, a confidence and a determination to see it through and not walk at the first sign of trouble. Because there will be trouble along the way, that is guaranteed.

The players who wouldn't co-operate also deserve criticism.

It's a shame that managers who seem to take this approach seem not to be able to see it through (Le Guen etc). Because imo the appeasement and acceptance of poor levels of professionalism has held our game back years in this country. Hopefully with the likes of Stubbs, Delia and Neilson that is about to change.

Collins went the wrong way about things, he wanted things to happen overnight and demoralised players confidence by basically telling them they weren't fit enough and didn't live good life's away from football, when you as manager start challenging players to how many sit ups you can do it doesn't bode well, and when one player challenged him to who could do the most press ups and the manager loses then takes the huff then that ain't good management, he should have been delighted that he was showed up in front of players. :greengrin

The only thing i think Petrie done wrong was agree to the meeting, he should have told the players to bolt.

Then you had certain players who didn't like Collins and his attitude towards players, hence the meeting taking place that shouldn't have, players handing in transfer requests, upsetting the dressing room and a certain agent stirring the pot as well.

I will always be grateful to Collins for our cup win, but he hasn't got it to be a manager, he proved that when he left Hibs and flopped with two other clubs in Europe, he may be a good coach with players who buy in to his way of thinking but he isn't cut out to be a manager.

Peevemor
14-03-2015, 11:47 PM
There's a very good 10 minute Hibs TV interview with AS on YouTube where he's speaking about the latest manager of the month award. He was quick to emphasise that the award was really for everyone at the club and not just him. He goes on to say that he sees himself as a people person and makes sure that whatever he wants to say to the players gets said, but always with respect.

I think these are the 2 main differences between Alan Stubbs and John Collins.

https://youtu.be/xwplvc8t2BA

Danderhall Hibs
15-03-2015, 12:59 AM
If you'd sold on these alleged pictures to the SUN , you would not be flavour of the month around Danderhall. or in Liverpool. those barstrewards............sorry, I'll correct my comment, those lying barstewards that purport to be a national (or Scottish) paper, which ever suits their needs at the time, printed almost daily lies about the Miners, during the strike in the 80's. where many in your village were involved!. then, almost immediately after the Hillsburgh disaster they printed unmentionable lies about the people of Liverpool. I am still amazed, nay, disgusted to see that many in Scotland still buy that paper. I'd rather buy the beano, or the dandy, a bloody good read in comparison. and yet, I daily drive by loads of vans, with a young joiner outside the van, pacing up and doon the street on his phone to the gaffer while his fat mate is in the van stuffin' his face wi' a bacon roll while reading the SUN. sums it up for me.

Totally with you mate.

My point was more this was clearly a story the papers would be interested in and if I had been in the position I'd have sold it. But not to the Sun.

monktonharp
15-03-2015, 01:05 AM
There's a very good 10 minute Hibs TV interview with AS on YouTube where he's speaking about the latest manager of the month award. He was quick to emphasise that the award was really for everyone at the club and not just him. He goes on to say that he sees himself as a people person and makes sure that whatever he wants to say to the players gets said, but always with respect.

I think these are the 2 main differences between Alan Stubbs and John Collins.

https://youtu.be/xwplvc8t2BAStubbs -Collins worlds apart. I had a lot of respect for JC, firstly as a player at Hibs, so much so that I told one of my sons, get along to see him playing, best thing in green for years, and maybe the best you'll see. we have had others that were close to his class since then, but from a management point of view (opinion) I think Stubbs is above that. he is such a gentleman to meet, added to the fact that he comes across so well in video interviews that most fans take to him readily. he looks like he'd be happy to be with us for a wee while, and wants to get good things done for us. no one knows what could happen 6 months from now, that's the way it is for clubs like ours now but big Stubbsy is doing well, and his backroom guys are superb. long may it continue.

monktonharp
15-03-2015, 01:09 AM
Totally with you mate.

My point was more this was clearly a story the papers would be interested in and if I had been in the position I'd have sold it. But not the the Sun.:aok:

Hibrandenburg
15-03-2015, 08:29 AM
Scott Brown is over 18 and old enough to decide if he wants a drink or not, but those who say alcohol doesn't have a significant negative effect on performance whether it be short or long term are kidding themselves.

LaMotta
15-03-2015, 09:01 AM
Scott Brown is over 18 and old enough to decide if he wants a drink or not, but those who say alcohol doesn't have a significant negative effect on performance whether it be short or long term are kidding themselves.

It is a sweeping generalisation to claim that alcohol will always have a negative effect on performance on all people.

I know a guy who studied sport science and they learnt that certain alcoholic drinks consumed with a specific mixer the evening before a game, if consumed in the correct quantity can actually result in an increase in energy to muscles the following day. Vodka and apple juice i believe was the tipple in question.

Pretty Boy
15-03-2015, 09:04 AM
It is a sweeping generalisation to claim that alcohol will always have a negative effect on performance on all people.

I know a guy who studied sport science and they learnt that certain alcoholic drinks consumed with a specific mixer the evening before a game, if consumed in the correct quantity can actually result in an increase in energy to muscles the following day. Vodka and apple juice i believe was the tipple in question.

Was the increased energy to muscles balanced against the headaches, nausea, dodgy stomach and dehydration?

LaMotta
15-03-2015, 09:09 AM
Was the increased energy to muscles balanced against the headaches, nausea, dodgy stomach and dehydration?

The only one of those things guaranteed for myself after a night of bevvying is dehydration, which can be easily combatted with plenty of fluids. So if that is the case, it could result in an improvement, or at least no impairment of performance for SOME people.

Pretty Boy
15-03-2015, 09:22 AM
The only one of those things guaranteed for myself after a night of bevvying is dehydration, which can be easily combatted with plenty of fluids. So if that is the case, it could result in an improvement, or at least no impairment of performance for SOME people.

It's not as simple as just drinking a load of water though. Tye liver won't produce as much glucosse when it's breaking sown alcohol so your body will start to use it's fat supplies for energy so you'll end up slower and more sluggish. The effect of alcohol on cortisol production and it's detrimental effect on tissue repair is also documented and reviewed.

Fwiw I don't see how Brown drinking 4 days before a game, if it's not a regular occurence and in moderation, would be a major issue but the idea drinking the night before a game could be ok is wrong. If nothing else the effect of alcohol on sleep quality and sleep patterns is relatively well established.

greenlex
15-03-2015, 09:37 AM
I can't believe people don't think this is a big story.

We're still talking about Russell Latapy going out a couple of nights before a derby 15 years ago.

A lot has been made of Deila's fitness regime, banning chips and fizzy drinks etc whilst he tries to get his team fit.

The Celtic and Scotland captain goes out and gets blootered, visiting strip clubs and eating a load of rubbish 4 days before a cup final.

In these days of higher standards of behaviour, better diet etc it is a ridiculous thing for Brown to do, and will be of great interest to many of the readers of that newspaper.

I heard that Lawwell has been unhappy about how Celtic players "out and about" are reporting on by the tabloid press. This stuff plays into their hands and is asking for trouble.

I don't know much about what else is happening in the world that it is keeping off the front page but if I were the editor of a national newspaper and this dropped on my desk I'd be rubbing my hands.
Smartie? Hmmmmmm.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 09:55 AM
Scott Brown is over 18 and old enough to decide if he wants a drink or not, but those who say alcohol doesn't have a significant negative effect on performance whether it be short or long term are kidding themselves.

Yep, think of the player Sauzee could have been.

LaMotta
15-03-2015, 10:07 AM
It's not as simple as just drinking a load of water though. Tye liver won't produce as much glucosse when it's breaking sown alcohol so your body will start to use it's fat supplies for energy so you'll end up slower and more sluggish. The effect of alcohol on cortisol production and it's detrimental effect on tissue repair is also documented and reviewed.

Fwiw I don't see how Brown drinking 4 days before a game, if it's not a regular occurence and in moderation, would be a major issue but the idea drinking the night before a game could be ok is wrong. If nothing else the effect of alcohol on sleep quality and sleep patterns is relatively well established.


Tissue repair after a game - of course. But worse performance during a game? Not always. My previous post stated that the alcohol should be consumed in the correct quantity, so I am not suggesting going out and drinking a litre bottle of vodka to oneself would lead to a better performance the next day.

Your statement in bold generalises again. And successful managers such as Brian Clough, Gianluca Vialli and Fabio Capello would disagree with you as they have all encouraged teams to drink the night before a game ( to varying degrees of moderation I should say, with Clough being more liberal than others!).

There is also research that suggests that drinking 11 pints of lager the night before a game does little to impair performance in Rugby, with robust testing on physical attributes used before drinking and the day after drinking showing no difference in performance. Similar physical attributes as used in Football i would think.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2656885/Playing-rugby-hangover-No-problem-Study-concludes-drinking-11-pints-night-game-does-little-impair-performance.html

Alcohol of course can and will impair sports performances, but not to all people all of the time.

jdships
15-03-2015, 10:29 AM
Wonder what the reaction would have been to this being a " non Hibs" player frpm say Rangers/hearts
The general opinion in the pub last night was that they would have slammed into him - Club/Scotland Captain etc
Many are defending Brown as he is an ex Hibs player.
For me , looking back on my short pro career , yes I had a beer now and again but never once was I drunk when contracted to a football club .
Brown is 29 years old and a mature adult remember and if he wants to get blootered do it in the off season surely !!
:rolleyes:

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 10:34 AM
Wonder what the reaction would have been to this being a " non Hibs" player frpm say Rangers/hearts
The general opinion in the pub last night was that they would have slammed into him - Club/Scotland Captain etc
Many are defending Brown as he is an ex Hibs player.
For me , looking back on my short pro career , yes I had a beer now and again but never once was I drunk when contracted to a football club .
Brown is 29 years old and a mature adult remember and if he wants to get blootered do it in the off season surely !!
:rolleyes:

No offence, but could the reason that you were never drunk, be due to the fact that your career was so short?

Scott has been a pro for over 10 years now, and knows his own body and how far he can push it. In most jobs you tend to relax rules a wee bit as you get older. It's clear from his physique that he doesn't abuse alcohol.

LaMotta
15-03-2015, 10:36 AM
Wonder what the reaction would have been to this being a " non Hibs" player frpm say Rangers/hearts
The general opinion in the pub last night was that they would have slammed into him - Club/Scotland Captain etc
Many are defending Brown as he is an ex Hibs player.
For me , looking back on my short pro career , yes I had a beer now and again but never once was I drunk when contracted to a football club .
Brown is 29 years old and a mature adult remember and if he wants to get blootered do it in the off season surely !!
:rolleyes:


Russell Latapy was regularly intoxicated during his lengthy and successful career and he played in a world cup at the age of 37 :greengrin

SanFranHibs
15-03-2015, 10:41 AM
Perhaps not the stuff that legends are made of but maybe this is just the birth of an appropriate piece of rhyming slang.

A night out on the Scottie :wink:

blackpoolhibs
15-03-2015, 10:45 AM
Even if he was pissed, and in being pissed it affected his performance today by 1%. He is still 20% better than the best Dundee Utd midfielder.

Rightly or wrongly he will know what he can do with his body better than anyone, and the one thing you can never accuse him of is a lack of fitness.

jdships
15-03-2015, 10:57 AM
No offence, but could the reason that you were never drunk, be due to the fact that your career was so short?

Scott has been a pro for over 10 years now, and knows his own body and how far he can push it. In most jobs you tend to relax rules a wee bit as you get older. It's clear from his physique that he doesn't abuse alcohol.


It was simply what was expected of us by our club/manager ( we had it in writing) as we were professional sportsmen
Can't find fault with that ! Yes have a beer /glass of wine but act sensibly
I remember in the 1950/60's my friend who played with Falkirk was never around on a Friday night.
The whole team was in an hotel in Grangemouth from 19.00 hrs
Perhaps you have a different set of values towards how you expect oro sportsmen to come accross to supporters - they are roll models to youngsters after all !!
There is plenty comment on players antics on the park sending out the wrong message to youngsters. ( diving/spitting etc)
Are you then saying that it's ok for a player to fall around the street a couple of days before an important game ?
Moderation in everything surely ?

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 11:09 AM
It was simply what was expected of us by our club/manager ( we had it in writing) as we were professional sportsmen
Can't find fault with that ! Yes have a beer /glass of wine but act sensibly
I remember in the 1950/60's my friend who played with Falkirk was never around on a Friday night.
The whole team was in an hotel in Grangemouth from 19.00 hrs
Perhaps you have a different set of values towards how you expect oro sportsmen to come accross to supporters - they are roll models to youngsters after all !!
There is plenty comment on players antics on the park sending out the wrong message to youngsters. ( diving/spitting etc)
Are you then saying that it's ok for a player to fall around the street a couple of days before an important game ?
Moderation in everything surely ?

My point is it is for the player themself to decide what their limit is. Should their form suffer - it's their career. Maybe the longer they've been doing the job, the more likely they are to bend the rules, I don't know.

IN his defence, he is getting slaughtered on here when nobody knows how much he had to drink, and what time he got to bed. His offence - eating a kebab on a pavement, wearing a hoodie.

If parents really want role models for their kids, they should prevent them from looking at pictures in a newspaper which shows naked women on page three, and has discussions about the best sexual techniques, on the problem pages.

blackpoolhibs
15-03-2015, 11:16 AM
My point is it is for the player themself to decide what their limit is. Should their form suffer - it's their career. Maybe the longer they've been doing the job, the more likely they are to bend the rules, I don't know.

IN his defence, he is getting slaughtered on here when nobody knows how much he had to drink, and what time he got to bed. His offence - eating a kebab on a pavement, wearing a hoodie.

If parents really want role models for their kids, they should prevent them from looking at pictures in a newspaper which shows naked women on page three, and has discussions about the best sexual techniques, on the problem pages.


:top marks

sleeping giant
15-03-2015, 11:18 AM
My point is it is for the player themself to decide what their limit is. Should their form suffer - it's their career. Maybe the longer they've been doing the job, the more likely they are to bend the rules, I don't know.

IN his defence, he is getting slaughtered on here when nobody knows how much he had to drink, and what time he got to bed. His offence - eating a kebab on a pavement, wearing a hoodie.

If parents really want role models for their kids, they should prevent them from looking at pictures in a newspaper which shows naked women on page three, and has discussions about the best sexual techniques, on the problem pages.

Excellent post

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 11:50 AM
It was simply what was expected of us by our club/manager ( we had it in writing) as we were professional sportsmen
Can't find fault with that ! Yes have a beer /glass of wine but act sensibly
I remember in the 1950/60's my friend who played with Falkirk was never around on a Friday night.
The whole team was in an hotel in Grangemouth from 19.00 hrs
Perhaps you have a different set of values towards how you expect oro sportsmen to come accross to supporters - they are roll models to youngsters after all !!
There is plenty comment on players antics on the park sending out the wrong message to youngsters. ( diving/spitting etc)
Are you then saying that it's ok for a player to fall around the street a couple of days before an important game ?
Moderation in everything surely ?


I think you'll find it was 4 days and he sat down not fell down. Not wanting to condone binging but there is no evidence of how much he had drunk or how drunk he was. I have seen hundreds of pics of well known folk looking legless when they are simply tired. Journos hang around and take many pics waiting for one that looks bad. On one hand Broon could have been blootered, on the other hand he could have had a few pints and just sat down to eat a keebab - who knows for sure?, do you? I tend not to believe crap journos and only have a considered opinion if I feel I have all the facts.

Baader
15-03-2015, 12:36 PM
I've worked with amateur athletes who take their fitness more seriously than some professional footballers who get paid handsomely to play for an audience. The mindset and dedication is noticeably different.

As said don't think you'd find Mo Farah or Andy Murray out for 'just a couple' before a big event. Or is it being as a team sport you can always get carried a bit in football if you're not quite up for it on the day...?

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 12:42 PM
I've worked with amateur athletes who take their fitness more seriously than some professional footballers who get paid handsomely to play for an audience. The mindset and dedication is noticeably different.

As said don't think you'd find Mo Farah or Andy Murray out for 'just a couple' before a big event. Or is it being as a team sport you can always get carried a bit in football if you're not quite up for it on the day...

Brown wasn't out just before a big event, it was four days before it - plenty of time to recover from his unknown amount of alcohol.
Professionals have more to lose than amateurs if they can't perform - I'd be inclined to trust their judgment.
Running a 100 metre race is not the same as taking part in a sport which requires short bursts of energy over a 90 minute period.

How do you measure the damage done to performance by alcohol anyway, when so many factors come into play: mental state, team mates,, weather, opposition, referees?

This sports science is an absolute crock - it's a pseudo science that tries to distill the human condition into a set of numbers on a blood test result. We are dealing with human beings, not machines.

Baader
15-03-2015, 12:51 PM
Malpas agrees with you Phil. How is it in 1985?!!

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 01:01 PM
Malpas agrees with you Phil.

Fine, show me the evidence of the science, that proves Scott Brown's performance today will be effected by his intake of booze and his diet four days ago. That's my criticism, the pseudo scientific approach to what is in effect common sense.

Most people can expect a full recovery from alcohol within 4 days.
A professional sportsman can certainly expect it.
They can also expect their fitness levels to drop if they are on the batter to excess every week - they will not train as well, and their body will not train as well.

But to try and say that in increase in creatanine, or a decrease of bilirubin, by a factor of + or - a percentage of a percentage is responsible for an equivalent rise or fall in performance, is still the territory of the snake oil salesman.

Understanding of the body and brain has not reached the level where we can tweak nutrition and intake to an extent where we can see a direct result on the pitch. The tests just don't exist - we are much to complex an organism.

Seems to me that this obsession about things that anyone can control, is a way of ordinary people to say they are in exactly the same place as the extraordinary people who excel in sport. Just as the keen amateur thinks that buying better equipment than the pro improves performance, they also somehow think that eating a lunatic diet, and measuring sodium levels regularly gives them the edge on their competitors.

The fact is a human being is more than the sum of its parts. A special athlete has something that the ordinary "nearly was" athletes don't have "star quality".

I'm away for my sunday fry up.

Alf Tuppe

ps in 1985, we're still believers in isotonic drinks, Kellog's Start, Omega Oils and callasthenics. HOw's that going in the future? We also have this mad thing called "evidence based science", I dare say that's gone out of the window in 2015. :)

Jay
15-03-2015, 01:10 PM
Brown wasn't out just before a big event, it was four days before it - plenty of time to recover from his unknown amount of alcohol.
Professionals have more to lose than amateurs if they can't perform - I'd be inclined to trust their judgment.
Running a 100 metre race is not the same as taking part in a sport which requires short bursts of energy over a 90 minute period.

How do you measure the damage done to performance by alcohol anyway, when so many factors come into play: mental state, team mates,, weather, opposition, referees?

This sports science is an absolute crock - it's a pseudo science that tries to distill the human condition into a set of numbers on a blood test result. We are dealing with human beings, not machines.

Not sure there's even one word in that post or the many you've posted on this thread that I agree with.
Are you saying the massive improvement this season has nothing to do with sport science, the one thing that those inside Hibs have been banging on about for months?
These guys get paid big money, they class themselves as athletes, people pay money to go and watch them especially at cup finals, people travel from all over the world. If not going out that one night gave him the extra 0.0001% that could give him that little extra speed to get to a ball before a defender or to play that perfect pass to sparky to score then as a fan or an employer I'd fully expect him to be tucked up in bed on Wednesday. And IMO it is a story for The Sun.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 01:22 PM
Not sure there's even one word in that post or the many you've posted on this thread that I agree with.
These guys get paid big money, they class themselves as athletes, people pay money to go and watch them especially at cup finals, people travel from all over the world. If not going out that one night gave him the extra 0.0001% that could give him that little extra speed to get to a ball before a defender or to play that perfect pass to sparky to score then as a fan or an employer I'd fully expect him to be tucked up in bed on Wednesday. And IMO it is a story for The Sun.

Well there's a first. :)

My criticism is of the so called science being used to justify the argument that his drinking on a Wednesday - four days before the game - of an unspecified amount of alcohol, will have any impact on his performance at all.

If somebody can give me evidence that can show a difference of 0.001% then I might listen. I would then question how a 0.001% improvement in performance from one player, on a pitch with 21 other players, could make any difference at all to the result.

When I found out that it didn't make any significant to the result, I would question why people think they have the right to control a person's private life, simply because they are doing a job that many see as priviledged.

My next step would be to warn all of those whose performance depends on physical and mental fitness to start watching how much they drink, and to start losing wait. It stands to reason, if it's OK to make criticisms of athletes without any factual or scientific base, then it is surely OK to expect the same of those less priviledged people.

Who knows, by making surgeons abstain from alcohol, we could maybe see a 0.001 % increase in survival rates post op. If nurses had to abstain from alcohol for the week before they were on shift, we could see a dramatic fall in hospital acquired infections.

It goes on and on, and although you'll think I'm being flippant, or smart, the point is valid. There is absolutely nothing to support people's claims that Brown's behaviour will have any impact on his performance today.

Instead, I detect a sort of moralistic backlash. Whether that's because people envy him for playing the game, or for making money out of it, I don't know. People really need to think about why they are so critical - and maybe look beyond the mantras being provided by "sports scientists".

Baader
15-03-2015, 01:26 PM
A professional sportsman... can also expect their fitness levels to drop if they are on the batter to excess every week - they will not train as well, and their body will not train as well.

Understanding of the body and brain has not reached the level where we can tweak nutrition and intake to an extent where we can see a direct result on the pitch. The tests just don't exist - we are much to complex an organism.


Which one is it? Your argument is contradictory. I think you're being contrary on this topic for the sake of it but if you are seriously implying there's no relation between 'nutrition and intake' and sporting performance I don't know where to begin.

Do you think it's worthwhile for players even to train?

Jay
15-03-2015, 01:31 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of scientific and factual proof out there considering the majority of top athletes don't drink and have a strict diet but you just go on spouting that there's none often enough and maybe enough people will believe you. I just hope none of them are Hibs players. I'm sure the guy at East Mains, Craig something, would love to chat with you. My son is heading to uni to do sports science in the hope of working with althletes and footballers perhaps I'll tell him just to do bar work instead.

Eyrie
15-03-2015, 01:33 PM
I'm undecided whether Phil D Roll's account has been hacked by Jeremy Clarkson or Nigel Farage.

Thecat23
15-03-2015, 01:35 PM
Who.......gives......a.........****?!

He got drunk, he never raped or killed anyone, some massive over reactions on here. I couldn't care less if a player gets smashed. For it to make from page or whatever page it made is laughable!!

Danderhall Hibs
15-03-2015, 01:55 PM
Who.......gives......a.........****?!

He got drunk, he never raped or killed anyone, some massive over reactions on here. I couldn't care less if a player gets smashed. For it to make from page or whatever page it made is laughable!!

How do you know?

Thecat23
15-03-2015, 01:56 PM
How do you know?

How do I know what??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

silverhibee
15-03-2015, 03:55 PM
Wonder what the reaction would have been to this being a " non Hibs" player frpm say Rangers/hearts
The general opinion in the pub last night was that they would have slammed into him - Club/Scotland Captain etc
Many are defending Brown as he is an ex Hibs player.
For me , looking back on my short pro career , yes I had a beer now and again but never once was I drunk when contracted to a football club .
Brown is 29 years old and a mature adult remember and if he wants to get blootered do it in the off season surely !!
:rolleyes:

Slammed in to him for what,? it was his day off the next day and he went out and had a few drinks, i really couldn't give a toss if Brown is a ex Hibs player or not, he was not breaking clubs rules or anything in his contract, what the club will punish him for is getting pictured looking a bit worse for ware and sitting in the street and getting himself in the press, i do not believe for one minute that this was a punter up town who took these pictures, it would seem that someone has tipped the Sun of about Brown being out in a strip club and a photographer has hung about the place hoping to catch Brown coming out and possibly followed him and took the pictures when he took a seat on the ground, because that is the story, "he was sitting on the ground" which doesn't show him in a good way.

You say in your short career you were never drunk while contracted to a club, how many players did get drunk in the teams you played in, my Dad was a good friend of a ex Hibs player and some of the stories he would talk about with some well known ex players would put some players to shame in this day in and age, players know they are not allowed to drink 48 hours before a game, it is in there contracts, so Broony done nothing wrong by going out for a few drinks 5 days before his next game with it being his day of the next day.

It's not as if he was on a night out and ended it by assaulting another football player, he had a wee seat and something to eat.

You seem to make out that this kind of stuff never happened in the good old days when you played football when you know players were just as bad back in these days as they are now, i would go further and say players in this day and age look after them selfs a lot better than they did back in your time of playing, only difference now is social media facebook twitter which are football players enemy nowadays.

Hibby Bairn
15-03-2015, 03:57 PM
I recall a documentary on Andy Murray in which he said he wasn't even allowed bread. Fairly sure alcohol would be on a similar banned list.

But maybe guys who play football in Scotland don't really see themselves as professional athletes. Game of football....couple of pints...fish supper...etc

silverhibee
15-03-2015, 04:11 PM
It was simply what was expected of us by our club/manager ( we had it in writing) as we were professional sportsmen
Can't find fault with that ! Yes have a beer /glass of wine but act sensibly
I remember in the 1950/60's my friend who played with Falkirk was never around on a Friday night.
The whole team was in an hotel in Grangemouth from 19.00 hrs
Perhaps you have a different set of values towards how you expect oro sportsmen to come accross to supporters - they are roll models to youngsters after all !!
There is plenty comment on players antics on the park sending out the wrong message to youngsters. ( diving/spitting etc)
Are you then saying that it's ok for a player to fall around the street a couple of days before an important game ?
Moderation in everything surely ?

You don't really make it clear what was in writing, and how many players back in the day 50/60s had a drink of wine, surely it was beer or lager and short ones.

Sorry but the only role models you should have in life are your parents, football players never get in to the game to be role model to youngsters and it is never put in a contract, i will ask you this question but i think i will already no your answer. Was Derek Riordan a role model to youngsters while he played at Hibs.?

Now your just making things up, at no point is he seen falling around, and it was 5 days before his next game and wasn't breaking club rules by being out for a drink.

silverhibee
15-03-2015, 04:14 PM
My point is it is for the player themself to decide what their limit is. Should their form suffer - it's their career. Maybe the longer they've been doing the job, the more likely they are to bend the rules, I don't know.

IN his defence, he is getting slaughtered on here when nobody knows how much he had to drink, and what time he got to bed. His offence - eating a kebab on a pavement, wearing a hoodie.

If parents really want role models for their kids, they should prevent them from looking at pictures in a newspaper which shows naked women on page three, and has discussions about the best sexual techniques, on the problem pages.

In a nutshell, end of story now.

silverhibee
15-03-2015, 04:43 PM
I recall a documentary on Andy Murray in which he said he wasn't even allowed bread. Fairly sure alcohol would be on a similar banned list.

But maybe guys who play football in Scotland don't really see themselves as professional athletes. Game of football....couple of pints...fish supper...etc

Does this only happen in Scotland.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVG_Vd9vaYY

https://vimeo.com/47383149

http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2012/10/11/3441545/barcelona-hired-me-to-pick-up-drunk-players-messis-former

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronaldo+out+drunk&biw=1093&bih=534&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=gLMFVeOsE4mx7QbLvYDADg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=Z3eJMjWr7VI3vM%253A%3B7MYh5mP-p1YIiM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fpbs.twimg.com%252Fmed ia%252FBMx39S-CEAEJdzY.jpg%253Alarge%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Ftwitt er.com%252Fgeniusfootball%252Fstatus%252F345783166 344237057%3B512%3B512

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/la/celebrities_at_crown_170708/cristiano_ronaldo_1979078.jpg


It would seem it's not just a Scottish thing, as above, two of the best players in the world and look at the knick of them in some of the pictures and the stories you read about them, just seems a footballer thing to me.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 05:06 PM
Which one is it? Your argument is contradictory. I think you're being contrary on this topic for the sake of it but if you are seriously implying there's no relation between 'nutrition and intake' and sporting performance I don't know where to begin.

Do you think it's worthwhile for players even to train?

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the simple point I am making - as you are convinced science is the answer to everything. :wink:

Where you can begin is by providing the evidence that drinking on a Thursday makes a massive difference to a player's performance on a Sunday. If we can establish indisputable proof that his ability to think, run and tackle was diminished any by it then we might be getting somewhere.

Yes there's a relationship between training, diet, alcohol and performance. I am questioning the science that tries to eke out miniscule improvments in performance, and attribute levels of chemicals found in the blood.

But when we start tinkering at the margins, we might just sacrifice relaxation, a very important aspect of maintaining fitness, focus, and performance - at the temple of nutrition and blood test results.

To make it very simple - I don't think whatever Scott drank the other night would make a blind bit of difference to today's result.

The other thing is, I know from experience that highly tuned athletes get into the state he looked like he was in, on much less alcohol than the rest of us.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 05:13 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of scientific and factual proof out there considering the majority of top athletes don't drink and have a strict diet but you just go on spouting that there's none often enough and maybe enough people will believe you. I just hope none of them are Hibs players. I'm sure the guy at East Mains, Craig something, would love to chat with you. My son is heading to uni to do sports science in the hope of working with althletes and footballers perhaps I'll tell him just to do bar work instead.


Perhaps if someone shows me evidence to back up the scientific basis of what they are telling me is a science, I'd be able to take comments like the one in bold a bit more seriously.

I'm trying to debate the validity of the science, and yet all you say is "I'm sure there's plenty.....". I'd love to have a chat with Craig as well, maybe my mate who does physio down there would set the meeting up, I don't know.



I would ask him the same simple question - "what evidence do you have that going out drinking on a Wednesday effects your fitness on a Sunday".

If he provided the evidence, I'd show him the respect of analysing it, and probably asking more questions. He'd no doubt respond by providing other evidence, and then I would do the same to back up my argument. Regardless of the conclusions we drew - we'd both at least have used a scientific basis to evaluate the science.

All I am asking is for somebody to point me in the way of some evidence - rather than this " a man in a white coat told me" approach.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 05:15 PM
I'm undecided whether Phil D Roll's account has been hacked by Jeremy Clarkson or Nigel Farage.

*****ing Romanian immigrants - can't even bring me a hot dinner.

And on that bombshell - I'm off to read up on the works of L. Ron Hubbard.

Baader
15-03-2015, 06:10 PM
I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the simple point I am making - as you are convinced science is the answer to everything. :wink:

No misunderstanding. You're cherrypicking your argument to the point where it isn't even coherent.

Sports science to you is a "crock" yet you admit the relationship "between training, diet, alcohol and performance" then choose only to look at the part of it "that tries to eke out miniscule improvments in performance, and attribute levels of chemicals found in the blood." So one part of it is okay then?

To dismiss the whole field of sports science as a crock is pretty staggering. Athletes today are breaking more records, pushing human endurance more than ever before. To say science and technology doesn't play a part in that and it's down to what you term "star quality" (or 'magic') is just laughable.

If you read my posts I never once mention Scott Brown. I don't care what Scott Brown does as he isn't a Hibs player. My original point was I've dealt with many amateur sportspeople who enact their role as an 'athlete' more seriously than a lot of professional footballers do - which as a football fan I find disappointing.

Jay
15-03-2015, 06:14 PM
Perhaps if someone shows me evidence to back up the scientific basis of what they are telling me is a science, I'd be able to take comments like the one in bold a bit more seriously.

I'm trying to debate the validity of the science, and yet all you say is "I'm sure there's plenty.....". I'd love to have a chat with Craig as well, maybe my mate who does physio down there would set the meeting up, I don't know.



I would ask him the same simple question - "what evidence do you have that going out drinking on a Wednesday effects your fitness on a Sunday".

If he provided the evidence, I'd show him the respect of analysing it, and probably asking more questions. He'd no doubt respond by providing other evidence, and then I would do the same to back up my argument. Regardless of the conclusions we drew - we'd both at least have used a scientific basis to evaluate the science.

All I am asking is for somebody to point me in the way of some evidence - rather than this " a man in a white coat told me" approach.

I'm sure if you contact Hibs they would be delighted to show you the science of what they are doing at East Mains, they've offered plenty opportunitys for the supporters to listen to what their doing down there, plenty people on this messageboard alone have raved about what they've seen and heard.

I'm sure he'd love the fact that your obviously qualified enough to analyse his work. All your argument seems to be is that nobody can prove 100% that it wouldn't affect Browns performance. I don't think 99.9% would satisfy you. I'm not even convinced you believe your own argument.

sleeping giant
15-03-2015, 06:23 PM
Without being all geeky ....
On the sports science side of things it's all really about the RER rate you achieve during CPET testing and what your Vo2 max is recorded as.
Alcohol does not affect this unless you are drunk when testing .
If you have good general fitness and have slept well the night before , your results would not be affected.

RER (respiratory exchange ratio )rate is the key.

:greengrin. Seriously

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 06:32 PM
No misunderstanding. You're cherrypicking your argument to the point where it isn't even coherent.

Sports science to you is a crock yet you admit the relationship "between training, diet, alcohol and performance" then choose only to look at the part of it "that tries to eke out miniscule improvments in performance, and attribute levels of chemicals found in the blood." So one part of it is okay then?

To dismiss the whole field of sports science as a crock is pretty staggering. Athletes today are breaking more records, pushing human endurance more than ever before. To say science and technology doesn't play a part in that and it's down to 'star quality' (as you say in an earlier post - or 'magic!') is just laughable.

If you read my posts I never once mention Scott Brown. I don't care what Scott Brown does as he isn't a Hibs player. My original point was I've dealt with many amateur sportspeople who enact their role as an 'athlete' more seriously than a lot of professional footballers do which as a football fan I find disaapointing.

I don't think managing diet and keeping fit is science, it's common sense.

I must admit I'm finding it harder to argue one way or another about the scientific basis for Scott's performance being effected by going out drinking four days before the game. The reason being, nobody seems to be prepared to provide a scintilla of scientific evidence about it.

Why is it just laughable to say the things I did. Is it anymore laughable than people on here using science to justify their argument, and then admitting they don't know what the science is, but if a man in a white coat says it is, then it must be.

I can appreciate why you might feel disappointed, but maybe your disappointment might not be as great if you looked at what would be gained by a footballer, and what would be lost, if he adapted the same training regime and lifestyle as a 100 metre sprinter.

Think about it this way. I know a guy who hasn't had sex for 20 years. He's a hopeless footballer, but he's an excellent priest.

You so want science to be right - I appreciate that. But you are showing an amazing blind faith in science. All I'm asking is that some evidence is provided to back up the arguments. So far, all I've heard on here is "well, it's science, eh, so, likes it's got to be indisputable".

I very much doubt if Scott Brown, or any other player, would have suffered a drop in performance by having a drink. When we start getting into that level of detail, we might as well start controlling how often they have sex, and analysing the opitmum length for grass on the football pitch.

But let's take it further. What about the psychological side - what is the effect of reading too much non fiction. Does that bring in an approach to the game that is too linear. Maybe exposing footballers to the works of Kafka, might encourage them to take a more anylitical approach to the game.

How about picking up on the fact that most Dutch players have a spatial awareness that Mondrian would be appreciative of. Ditch the playstations at East Mains, and have a multi media gallery of world art.

I think the wailing of hands about footballer's lifestyle is about jealousy and envy of their position and the money they make. I think that because people are prepared to make all sorts of demands of them, whether or not there is evidence to back it up.

Hence a four pager about a bloke going out for a drink. Who else would suffer this level of intrusion into our leisure time. All because a player had (let's guess) 4 pints on a Wednesday night. Eight unit, out of his body in eight hours. Maybe a bit of residual tiredness due to oxygen deprivation which would take up to a day to clear, along with other undesirable toxins.

So he's back at training after his day off, he's relaxed and in good humour, because for one day life wasn't all about work.

It's all speculation without evidence to back it up. It's usually the case on here that when people have their evidence base questioned, it degenerates into name calling. Pity really, there could be some interesting stuff to come out of the discussion - if only people would keep their minds open.

Jay
15-03-2015, 06:32 PM
Without being all geeky ....
On the sports science side of things it's all really about the RER rate you achieve during CPET testing and what your Vo2 max is recorded as.
Alcohol does not affect this unless you are drunk when testing .
If you have good general fitness and have slept well the night before , your results would not be affected.

RER (respiratory exchange ratio )rate is the key.

:greengrin. Seriously

So are you saying the players should be able to go out on the peeve every week and as long as they are not drunk at KO it won't affect their game? If that's the case it's time we got back to the days when the players are up town all the time, we've a cup to win! Someone tell Andy Murray to sack his sports coach and dietician and just hit George street before Wimbledon :)

sleeping giant
15-03-2015, 06:35 PM
So are you saying the players should be able to go out on the peeve every week and as long as they are not drunk at KO it won't affect their game? If that's the case it's time we got back to the days when the players are up town all the time, we've a cup to win! Someone tell Andy Murray to sack his sports coach and dietician and just hit George street before Wimbledon :)

What I'm saying is that the effects can't be measured unless they are to tired to train or play.
I'm not arguing either way about going for a bevy . Just stating that the detrimental effects cannot be measured while doing Cardio Pulmonary Exercise Testing. RER rate.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 06:38 PM
I'm sure if you contact Hibs they would be delighted to show you the science of what they are doing at East Mains, they've offered plenty opportunitys for the supporters to listen to what their doing down there, plenty people on this messageboard alone have raved about what they've seen and heard.

I'm sure he'd love the fact that your obviously qualified enough to analyse his work. All your argument seems to be is that nobody can prove 100% that it wouldn't affect Browns performance. I don't think 99.9% would satisfy you. I'm not even convinced you believe your own argument.

Jill. It's not Hibs who are making out I'm an idiot for asking the questions I am asking.

No need for sarcasm either. I am not qualified to analyse his work, but I can have a good go at analysing the scientific evidence, as I learned how to evaluate evidence at university.

The honest truth is I don't give a sh*t whether it makes a difference to performance or not. I do give a sh*t about somebody expecting me to accept an argument without anything to back it up.

Maybe it's just the way I am, but I would feel a bit of a fraud going around telling people they are wrong, without at least having something to back up my argument, other than insulting their personality or motivation.

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 06:41 PM
Well there's a first. :)

My criticism is of the so called science being used to justify the argument that his drinking on a Wednesday - four days before the game - of an unspecified amount of alcohol, will have any impact on his performance at all.

If somebody can give me evidence that can show a difference of 0.001% then I might listen. I would then question how a 0.001% improvement in performance from one player, on a pitch with 21 other players, could make any difference at all to the result.

When I found out that it didn't make any significant to the result, I would question why people think they have the right to control a person's private life, simply because they are doing a job that many see as priviledged.

My next step would be to warn all of those whose performance depends on physical and mental fitness to start watching how much they drink, and to start losing wait. It stands to reason, if it's OK to make criticisms of athletes without any factual or scientific base, then it is surely OK to expect the same of those less priviledged people.

Who knows, by making surgeons abstain from alcohol, we could maybe see a 0.001 % increase in survival rates post op. If nurses had to abstain from alcohol for the week before they were on shift, we could see a dramatic fall in hospital acquired infections.

It goes on and on, and although you'll think I'm being flippant, or smart, the point is valid. There is absolutely nothing to support people's claims that Brown's behaviour will have any impact on his performance today.

Instead, I detect a sort of moralistic backlash. Whether that's because people envy him for playing the game, or for making money out of it, I don't know. People really need to think about why they are so critical - and maybe look beyond the mantras being provided by "sports scientists".



Well argued sir.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 06:44 PM
What I'm saying is that the effects can't be measured unless they are to tired to train or play.
I'm not arguing either way about going for a bevy . Just stating that the detrimental effects cannot be measured while doing Cardio Pulmonary Exercise Testing. RER rate.

Thanks for bringing evidence into it.

My argument is that there are a myriad of factors which influence performance, and any empirical measure is suspect.

Another way to look at it is, I've take blood Oxygen levels from people that have said they should be dead. Looking at them, I could tell they were not dead.

The bottom line is that there are very few absolutes in respect of the human body, it is not a binary machine..

I'm sure that the sports scientists would acknowledge the grey areas, and welcome debate on the subject - as they strive to improve their science. They would also admit that they are only basing their advice on probabilities.

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 06:50 PM
Jill. It's not Hibs who are making out I'm an idiot for asking the questions I am asking.

No need for sarcasm either. I am not qualified to analyse his work, but I can have a good go at analysing the scientific evidence, as I learned how to evaluate evidence at university.

The honest truth is I don't give a sh*t whether it makes a difference to performance or not. I do give a sh*t about somebody expecting me to accept an argument without anything to back it up.

Maybe it's just the way I am, but I would feel a bit of a fraud going around telling people they are wrong, without at least having something to back up my argument, other than insulting their personality or motivation.



Flogging a dead horse I'm afraid Phil - this guy has made his (smallish) mind up and wouldn't change it even if Stephen Hawkins disproved his argument. As I said in an earlier post, too many people are taking it as gospel that Scotty Broon was blootered (gospel - Sun? the mind boggles). Maybe a few beers and a keebab? I don't know for sure and neither does anyone on here so maybe Broon now being a tic is influencing some folk.

Baader
15-03-2015, 06:53 PM
I don't think managing diet and keeping fit is science, it's common sense.


Come off it man. You're changing your argument each post and making it up as you go along. It's entertaining mind. And absurd.

My point to you was not about the specifics Scott Brown - it was challenging your assertion that sports science is a load of nonsense...

Jay
15-03-2015, 06:58 PM
Flogging a dead horse I'm afraid Phil - this guy has made his (smallish) mind up and wouldn't change it even if Stephen Hawkins disproved his argument. As I said in an earlier post, too many people are taking it as gospel that Scotty Broon was blootered (gospel - Sun? the mind boggles). Maybe a few beers and a keebab? I don't know for sure and neither does anyone on here so maybe Broon now being a tic is influencing some folk.

I'm a girl and I'm equally entitled to an opinion and debate as Mr Rolls is. You obviously know nothing about me if you think I'm small minded. I never said Scott Brown was blootered or even had a kebab, I was just commenting on the fact that I think a night out and drinking 4 days before a game, especially a cup final would affect his performance and was a bad decision.

Rolls, I apologise if you saw my comment as sarcastic, I think we just live on different planets as sarcasm wasn't my intention. I really think you should see about a visit to EM. I think it might change your outlook.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 06:59 PM
Flogging a dead horse I'm afraid Phil - this guy has made his (smallish) mind up and wouldn't change it even if Stephen Hawkins disproved his argument. As I said in an earlier post, too many people are taking it as gospel that Scotty Broon was blootered (gospel - Sun? the mind boggles). Maybe a few beers and a keebab? I don't know for sure and neither does anyone on here so maybe Broon now being a tic is influencing some folk.

Hold on, I didn't say anybody had a small mind. I'm just asking people to question the basis of what they believe - not to be taken in just because somebody they like says something is true, or be put off because somebody they don't like says it isn't true.

From a non evidence based perspective, based on life experience, my question is "how unfit is a player if a moderate amount of alcohol now an then effects his performance".

I would think not very fit, or too fit. (Over training, anybody else ever heard of it).

As for making out that a guy who runs in a race, performing one set of skills, should train the same way as a player in a team sport - if that's the case, every one of us should be following sports science, as none of us are doing our jobs right.

blackpoolhibs
15-03-2015, 07:00 PM
I think its obvious if this was happening every week, then there's no doubt it could have an effect on his fitness, but FFS its a footballer sitting on his erse whose had a drink.

We dont even know how many, but it was obviously not enough to stop him and his team winning another trophy today.

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm sure if you contact Hibs they would be delighted to show you the science of what they are doing at East Mains, they've offered plenty opportunitys for the supporters to listen to what their doing down there, plenty people on this messageboard alone have raved about what they've seen and heard.

I'm sure he'd love the fact that your obviously qualified enough to analyse his work. All your argument seems to be is that nobody can prove 100% that it wouldn't affect Browns performance. I don't think 99.9% would satisfy you. I'm not even convinced you believe your own argument.

I think you'll find, Mrs S, that the only people calling it sport SCIENCE are those conducting it. It is actually academic and medical theory being applied to sporting activities mainly by physios and coaches whose qualifications are not of a scientific bent. Even the dieticians argue amongst themselves constantly and all their books contradict each other. Coaches will adopt pretty much anything to get an edge but science it ain't.

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 07:08 PM
Hold on, I didn't say anybody had a small mind. I'm just asking people to question the basis of what they believe - not to be taken in just because somebody they like says something is true, or be put off because somebody they don't like says it isn't true.

From a non evidence based perspective, based on life experience, my question is "how unfit is a player if a moderate amount of alcohol now an then effects his performance".

I would think not very fit, or too fit. (Over training, anybody else ever heard of it).

As for making out that a guy who runs in a race, performing one set of skills, should train the same way as a player in a team sport - if that's the case, every one of us should be following sports science, as none of us are doing our jobs right.

Apologies - I should have said "closed mind".

Jay
15-03-2015, 07:09 PM
I think you'll find, Mrs S, that the only people calling it sport SCIENCE are those conducting it. It is actually academic and medical theory being applied to sporting activities mainly by physios and coaches whose qualifications are not of a scientific bent. Even the dieticians argue amongst themselves constantly and all their books contradict each other. Coaches will adopt pretty much anything to get an edge but science it ain't.

So everybody that's used the term sports science on this thread please stand corrected.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 07:10 PM
Come off it man. You're changing your argument each post and making it up as you go along. It's entertaining mind.

My point to you was not about the specifics Scott Brown - it was challenging your assertion that sports science is a load of nonsense...

I think a lot of so called sciences are nonsense. Psychology, psychiatry, and Sports Science all use the language of science without following its rules. A lot of the evidence in these doctrines is not absolute, and so what you end up with is a subjective interpretation of what is gathered.

So player A (not Scott Brown, I stress), has the following things going on: recovery from a torn calf muscle three months ago, proper diet including every quack nutritional supplement known to man, his wife is having an affair, he is trying to win his place back in the team, he has just been given a 300,000 a month contract, his daughter has measles. Yet somehow, we can identify four drinks on a Wednesday night as being the cause of his poor form.

There are too many variables in the human condition to conclude why one person performs differently from another.

Sorry, but as I said, humans are not binary machines. IMHO analysing how the mitocondrium deals with transfer of nitrogen from cell to blood, is looking in the wrong place. Treating athletes like they are Kobe cattle will not necessarily make a big difference. If it did then Bradford should never beat Chelsea, but they did.

So, give me the evidence that backs up your argument. That's all I ask - show me the data so I can consider how it was gathered and how it was interpreted.


I'm a girl and I'm equally entitled to an opinion and debate as Mr Rolls is. You obviously know nothing about me if you think I'm small minded. I never said Scott Brown was blootered or even had a kebab, I was just commenting on the fact that I think a night out and drinking 4 days before a game, especially a cup final would affect his performance and was a bad decision.

Rolls, I apologise if you saw my comment as sarcastic, I think we just live on different planets as sarcasm wasn't my intention. I really think you should see about a visit to EM. I think it might change your outlook.

No need to apologise Mrs. S., I'm enjoying the argument. As I said, my mate works at EM, so maybe he can point me in the way of some more evidence.

FWIW, I think regular alcohol will effect performance in the long run - we've all seen that as some players have faded in their late 20s. I don't think there's any harm in them cutting loose in a sensible way now and again, and there's maybe even a gain in morale that comes from it.

Baader
15-03-2015, 07:11 PM
Apologies - I should have said "closed mind".

Phil namedrops Kafka and Mondrian. No-one else knows who they are of course... :rolleyes:

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 07:12 PM
I think you'll find, Mrs S, that the only people calling it sport SCIENCE are those conducting it. It is actually academic and medical theory being applied to sporting activities mainly by physios and coaches whose qualifications are not of a scientific bent. Even the dieticians argue amongst themselves constantly and all their books contradict each other. Coaches will adopt pretty much anything to get an edge but science it ain't.

Thanks, I thought I was going insane - that's why I used the term pseudoscience. It pretends to be a science, but it's not, and so it breaks its own rules.

Phil D. Rolls
15-03-2015, 07:14 PM
Phil namedrops Kafka and Mondrian. No-one else knows who they are of course... :rolleyes:

Sorry mate, I thought that if they were interested they would probably have heard of google.

Kafka was a novelist folks - I think he might have been an existentialist,but I don't know.
Mondrian was a Dutch painter, Simon Kuyper (another name) used Mondrian's pictures to illustrate how Dutch football and personality mirrored the landscape of the Netherlands in that it was able to make a lot of space out of a little space.

Still the toys really flying out of the pram now.

:dummytit:

Jay
15-03-2015, 07:17 PM
No need to apologise Mrs. S., I'm enjoying the argument. As I said, my mate works at EM, so maybe he can point me in the way of some more evidence.

FWIW, I think regular alcohol will effect performance in the long run - we've all seen that as some players have faded in their late 20s. I don't think there's any harm in them cutting loose in a sensible way now and again, and there's maybe even a gain in morale that comes from it.

I agree that cutting loose in a sensible way now and again isn't a bad thing, in fact I think they'd need to for their sanity but not 4 days before a cup final. Before anybody starts! ....... I'm not saying Scott Brown did this, I'm talking theoretically now :) I think the sugars in the alcohol may be more of a no no than the actual alcohol.

CockneyRebel
15-03-2015, 07:20 PM
I'm a girl and I'm equally entitled to an opinion and debate as Mr Rolls is. You obviously know nothing about me if you think I'm small minded. I never said Scott Brown was blootered or even had a kebab, I was just commenting on the fact that I think a night out and drinking 4 days before a game, especially a cup final would affect his performance and was a bad decision.

Rolls, I apologise if you saw my comment as sarcastic, I think we just live on different planets as sarcasm wasn't my intention. I really think you should see about a visit to EM. I think it might change your outlook.

Sorry Mrs S I thought I was replying to someone else's post. If you are indeed open minded why have you based your opinion on the "evidence" of one photo and some gutter journalism by saying it was a bad decision. I don't know if he was drunk or just had a few beers and was tired therefore, for me, the jury is still out and the argument currently pointless.

I think I will now withdraw from this post as there are too many uninformed comments, too many posters ready to condemn without proof. I am ignorant of the true facts of the "night out" but hanging a man out to dry on the say so of a Sun reporter - sorry, no. (Also by the time I post a reply I find I have missed several postings which make my posting badly out of sequence/context).

Baader
15-03-2015, 07:31 PM
Sorry mate, I thought that if they were interested they would probably have heard of google.

Toys really flying out of the pram now.

:dummytit:

There's no apology required Phil. Just find it a bit tedious if you're trying to make out anyone that disagrees with you has "a closed mind" or wouldn't know who these people you namecheck are... I don't accept your 'that's not science - that's common sense' mantra on this. That's all.

Maybe you'd care to explain how - other than your "star quality"/magic argument - records in sport are continually getting broken if science and technology do not offer anything? I'm not posting links to make a petty argument but if you are keen to analyse empirical studies between nutrition and sporting performance Glasgow University is a good place to contact to investigate and test your theories (but you'll probably dismiss their findings as "common sense!") Loughborough University has conducted a great deal of research on the subject too if you're interested.

Cheers

TrinityHibs
15-03-2015, 07:37 PM
If Alan Stubbs says sports science works that's good enough for me. Scott Brown really who cares. I hope he drinks kebabs and pervs his way to non existence if it helps Hibs. This is our year do not let any pish get in our way

Jay
15-03-2015, 07:40 PM
Sorry Mrs S I thought I was replying to someone else's post. If you are indeed open minded why have you based your opinion on the "evidence" of one photo and some gutter journalism by saying it was a bad decision. I don't know if he was drunk or just had a few beers and was tired therefore, for me, the jury is still out and the argument currently pointless.

I think I will now withdraw from this post as there are too many uninformed comments, too many posters ready to condemn without proof. I am ignorant of the true facts of the "night out" but hanging a man out to dry on the say so of a Sun reporter - sorry, no. (Also by the time I post a reply I find I have missed several postings which make my posting badly out of sequence/context).

Oh jeez, I'm not jumping on the Scott brown should be hung bandwagon. I joined the discussion on the point of whether anybody drinking or even out at night in the week of a cup final would see the effects of it on his performance on the park and if that 0.0001% supposed difference actually mattered. In my opinion it does.

ancient hibee
15-03-2015, 08:29 PM
Somebody quoting "gutter journalism"-think it was the player who was nearly in the gutter.

jdships
15-03-2015, 09:31 PM
Slammed in to him for what,? it was his day off the next day and he went out and had a few drinks, i really couldn't give a toss if Brown is a ex Hibs player or not, he was not breaking clubs rules or anything in his contract, what the club will punish him for is getting pictured looking a bit worse for ware and sitting in the street and getting himself in the press, i do not believe for one minute that this was a punter up town who took these pictures, it would seem that someone has tipped the Sun of about Brown being out in a strip club and a photographer has hung about the place hoping to catch Brown coming out and possibly followed him and took the pictures when he took a seat on the ground, because that is the story, "he was sitting on the ground" which doesn't show him in a good way.

You say in your short career you were never drunk while contracted to a club, how many players did get drunk in the teams you played in, my Dad was a good friend of a ex Hibs player and some of the stories he would talk about with some well known ex players would put some players to shame in this day in and age, players know they are not allowed to drink 48 hours before a game, it is in there contracts, so Broony done nothing wrong by going out for a few drinks 5 days before his next game with it being his day of the next day.

It's not as if he was on a night out and ended it by assaulting another football player, he had a wee seat and something to eat.

You seem to make out that this kind of stuff never happened in the good old days when you played football when you know players were just as bad back in these days as they are now, i would go further and say players in this day and age look after them selfs a lot better than they did back in your time of playing, only difference now is social media facebook twitter which are football players enemy nowadays.


Can only comment on the two clubs I was associated with and as always in discussions like this it is all down to opinions
Personally for me professional football now is all about money and nothing else : respect loyalty or whatever you want to call it we had in the " good old days" are no longer relevant .
I did not say " that this kind of stuff never happened in the good old days when you played football " : what I did say was the club
insisted we " were moderate" in the amount of alchol we drank and when we drank it . They required us to look after our personal
fitness when away from the training ground .
No two people are alike in habit or sense and there will always be those who manage to mix " business and pleasure :greengrin
You could say " life's for living so to hell with conforming " :wink:

jdships
15-03-2015, 09:31 PM
Oh jeez, I'm not jumping on the Scott brown should be hung bandwagon. I joined the discussion on the point of whether anybody drinking or even out at night in the week of a cup final would see the effects of it on his performance on the park and if that 0.0001% supposed difference actually mattered. In my opinion it does.

:agree:

crewetollhibee
15-03-2015, 10:02 PM
Has anyone considered that it may have been a significant date for SB ? Anniversary of his sister's death or her birthday for example ? He could also just be one of those guys who likes a couple of drinks now and again, and psychologically is a better player for having let off some steam. Big fuss about nowt . The story not the previous comments.

Swedish hibee
15-03-2015, 10:13 PM
Who is Scott Brown? Come on the Hibees.

sleeping giant
15-03-2015, 11:15 PM
I think you'll find, Mrs S, that the only people calling it sport SCIENCE are those conducting it. It is actually academic and medical theory being applied to sporting activities mainly by physios and coaches whose qualifications are not of a scientific bent. Even the dieticians argue amongst themselves constantly and all their books contradict each other. Coaches will adopt pretty much anything to get an edge but science it ain't.

I beg to differ .

Many football clubs are currently using or trailing CPET systems.
Respitory exchange rate coupled with Vco and VCo2 max give an absolute measurement of of peak exercise . These tests are done with load on an ergometer (bike) where the load can be adjusted to measure different absolute rates at certain loads. It can be set to apply random loads over a period of time like a 90 minute match and can absolutely tell if you have the fitness to peak at 90 mins or deterioate before hand .
This can be worked on to get the Vo2 max up to the required level.

All football clubs will go down this route IMO.

And if you want anymore info on this and the papers behind it please give me a pm.

macd123
16-03-2015, 01:31 AM
I beg to differ .

Many football clubs are currently using or trailing CPET systems.
Respitory exchange rate coupled with Vco and VCo2 max give an absolute measurement of of peak exercise . These tests are done with load on an ergometer (bike) where the load can be adjusted to measure different absolute rates at certain loads. It can be set to apply random loads over a period of time like a 90 minute match and can absolutely tell if you have the fitness to peak at 90 mins or deterioate before hand .
This can be worked on to get the Vo2 max up to the required level.

All football clubs will go down this route IMO.

And if you want anymore info on this and the papers behind it please give me a pm.

Agreed. In many scientific fields there are absolutes and also things which are debated and disputed. It's still science though.

As for Scott Brown he can afford slight drops in performance. He is not an elite athlete like Chris Hoy or Andy Murray where 1% can make the difference. He is not even having to extend himself in football terms. If he was playing in La Liga fighting for a place in the team and regularly against players better than he is, he might go looking for that extra 1%.

Mikey09
16-03-2015, 09:38 AM
Is Baking a Science?? My Gran told me it was.... :greengrin

Danderhall Hibs
16-03-2015, 10:33 AM
Is Baking a Science?? My Gran told me it was.... :greengrin

Did she have a white coat?

Smartie
16-03-2015, 12:45 PM
Did she have a white coat?

My "domestic science" teacher at school wore a white coat.

Stranraer
16-03-2015, 08:01 PM
Not the best thing for a professional to do but so what? I was more peed off at McGivern celebrating when we were in big trouble. At least Brown had something to celebrate / look forward to.

21.05.2016
17-03-2015, 08:24 AM
Not the best thing for a professional to do but so what? I was more peed off at McGivern celebrating when we were in big trouble. At least Brown had something to celebrate / look forward to.

:agree: Or O'Conner and co. who headed up town partying the same night we got beat by hearts in the cup final. Completely disrespectful to hibs and the hibs fans after what had just happened.