Ditch The TV Deal?

[Keith_M]

Peter Lawell in the Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/peter-lawwell-ditch-the-spfl-tv-deal-1-3712459) today saying he'd be happy to ditch the current SPFL TV deal and move all his Club's games back to Saturday at 3.

Not out of any great concern for the Supporters and any inconvenience of moving games but because he reckons the increase in attendances would be worth more than they currently get from their share of TV money.


I can't stand the guy but, in this instance, I can't help agreeing with him.

[Jack]

Peter Lawell in the Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/peter-lawwell-ditch-the-spfl-tv-deal-1-3712459) today saying he'd be happy to ditch the current SPFL TV deal and move all his Club's games back to Saturday at 3.

Not out of any great concern for the Supporters and any inconvenience of moving games but because he reckons the increase in attendances would be worth more than they currently get from their share of TV money.


I can't stand the guy but, in this instance, I can't help agreeing with him.

That's been the case for years, I wonder what's woken him up now?

[Carheenlea]

In a previous discussion about this I'm sure the figure banded about for us would be an extra 2000 on the gate to make up what we get from Sky and BT.
I'd side with Lawell on this - tell Sky/BT to bolt and stick with highlights and radio on the Beeb. If you want to see Hibs live, you will need to get yourself along to Easter Road.

[Keith_M]

That's been the case for years, I wonder what's woken him up now?


He was whingeing a few days ago about how the new TV contract in England makes it less likely that Celtc would ever be invited to play down there.

That must have convinced him to get his abacus out and have another moan about poorweesellik.

[Scottie]

He's spot on when talking about his own club but teams like us need every single penny going from tv money as 3pm kick offs on a Saturday dosen't increase the gate enough to justify scrapping the tv money.

[Big_Franck]

I'd be delighted if we did this. Derbies at 3pm on a Saturday would be brilliant.

Sunday lunchtime kick-offs easily knock 1500-2000 off our attendances IMO, as well as being a pain in the ar$e for those that do attend.

Tell Sky to GTF.

[Carheenlea]

He's spot on when talking about his own club but teams like us need every single penny going from tv money as 3pm kick offs on a Saturday dosen't increase the gate enough to justify scrapping the tv money.

It would if it was the only way you could see Hibs live. Derbies would be sold out and Rangers/Celtic games which traditionally see lowish home support would increase dramatically. When back in top flight of course.

[Bobby's Cinema]

I can't agree. It makes the SPFL unattractive. For guys looking to kick start their careers again, guys like Scotty Allan, it would have less appeal. Also, the BBC still have rights to cup games, so would scrapping the sky deal stop them from moving semis to noon ko's? Or are we scrapping that too

[CentreLine]

Thought that myself until we slipped to the lower league and our games stopped being televised so often. I really thought that would be a good thing for crowds. Now I realise that this argument for 3pm Saturday football is just another excuse for not going to games in the majority of cases. Just the same as all the other excuses about Prtrie, corruption in the game, bad refereeing, football violence, tribal behaviour by fans, bigotry etc. Lawless can take his pick and blame them all but if people are being entertained on a level playing field they will come back no matter what time or day it is. The TV exposure is also directly related to the value of other sponsorships. Even if we saw a full house every second Saturday it would not make up for all that sadly

[JimBHibees]

Agree with what he is saying however don't believe him as this will be him trying to negotiate. Advertising revenue would plummet if games weren't live I would imagine so all costs would need to be taken into account.

[LeithSqualk]

I'd be delighted if we did this. Derbies at 3pm on a Saturday would be brilliant.

Sunday lunchtime kick-offs easily knock 1500-2000 off our attendances IMO, as well as being a pain in the ar$e for those that do attend.

Tell Sky to GTF.

I agree. This should be pursued, even if only to push future tv deals.

[Hibby Bairn]

In this day and age sport needs to be on tv to have any chance of selling sponsorship and advertising.

[Scottie]

Tell Sky to GTF.
You'd have to tell ALL the sponsors to GTF as well. :rolleyes:


It would if it was the only way you could see Hibs live. Derbies would be sold out and Rangers/Celtic games which traditionally see lowish home support would increase dramatically. When back in top flight of course.
:confused: People will always find an excuse NOT to go along to the game whether it is 3pm or not. In the commercial world we live in we NEED tv money unfortunately.

[Phil D. Rolls]

He's spot on when talking about his own club but teams like us need every single penny going from tv money as 3pm kick offs on a Saturday dosen't increase the gate enough to justify scrapping the tv money.

Do you think having games on a Friday night, or a Scottish cup tie at 12:45 on a Sunday increases or decreases the gate?

[Scouse Hibee]

Peter Lawell in the Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/peter-lawwell-ditch-the-spfl-tv-deal-1-3712459) today saying he'd be happy to ditch the current SPFL TV deal and move all his Club's games back to Saturday at 3.

Not out of any great concern for the Supporters and any inconvenience of moving games but because he reckons the increase in attendances would be worth more than they currently get from their share of TV money.


I can't stand the guy but, in this instance, I can't help agreeing with him.


I don't agree that it would make the significant difference to attendances to replace TV money. In lots of cases the differing kick of times and days enable people to attend rather than hinder it. Working patterns have changed dramatically over the last 30 years so Saturdays at 3pm are no longer the gimme to attend football that everyone thinks. Lots of different reasons why attendances have dropped, prices and football on show are also a factor.

[danhibees1875]

As part of my dissertation a few years ago I asked about the importance of various revenue streams at spl clubs. Tv revenue was a very clear winner.

I do think sky/ tv deals have ruined football by the way they've created such a wealth gap between the elite and the rest but I don't think scrapping the tv deal will do any good.

[Scottie]

Do you think having games on a Friday night, or a Scottish cup tie at 12:45 on a Sunday increases or decreases the gate?
Eh if it was only that simple. :rolleyes:

My point is would the loss in TV revenue and sponsorship be covered by the walk ups at 3pm on a Saturday? IMO definitely NO.

[Keith_M]

RE Lawell:

I think the factor that has focussed his mind recently is the massive decrease in attendances at Darkheid.

IMO, this has had far more to do with the loss of their symbiotic relationship with Der Hun than any changes for TV.

[Michael]

I think we should ditch it. If teams lose money they can just spend less on players wages. I don't see an issue there.

[Bostonhibby]

And as soon as the rangers are back in the top flight and sky fancy broadcasting a bit of bigotry around the world the money will be trousered and the rest of the league won't get a second thought from lawell.

[hibbymick]

.....And just a few days after he was blowing his trumpet about their new mega bucks sponsor deal. :rolleyes:

[CentreLine]

And as soon as the rangers are back in the top flight and sky fancy broadcasting a bit of bigotry around the world the money will be trousered and the rest of the league won't get a second thought from lawell.

Yes, its all a bit similar to Wattie Smith spouting off that Scottish Football would thrive if Rangers and Celtic went to England. Months later he is telling anyone that will listen that Scottish Football needs a strong Rangers. Those two (now three) clubs have no interest in the health of Scottish football unless it is to their own benefit. As it happens I agreed with Wattie's first pronouncement :lolrangers:

[greenginger]

The yams publish a breakdown of their turnover in their accounts ( Usually Note 2 )

The copies I've got to hand 2009 - 2012 show broadcasting income varying from £ 1.5 - £ 2.5 million which was between 19% and 29% of their total income.

A comparison with their match day income shows broadcasting was between 38% and 55% of that figure.

A big gap to fill. Also, without TV all advertising revenue would be hammered, including Lawell's bigged-up Shirt deal.

[green&left]

Can see why he's against it. Celtic are probably on TV more than any other football team in Britland yet receive about £1.5m per season for it. Probably around 2% of Celtics total incomes. Teams in the EPL will be on TV alot less but TV money will make up around 50% of their income. Probably alot more in some cases.

The loss in revenue would be the same for every club across the board so don't see an issue there. If it means losing a few quid then to hell with it. Problem with Scottish football. Only focus on £££££££

The money we get for our TV rights is a joke and the scheduling is even worse.

Least with Setanta you knew it was going to be Saturday 12.30 or Sunday 2pm. Now with BT and Sky (Not to mention Alba) kick-off times are all over the place. You can be Friday evening, early or late Saturday afternoons, anytime Sundays with Sky or BT's free slots or Monday nights.

Motherwell have a massive game away to Aberdeen on Friday. There isn't even any public transport available to Glasgow/Motherwell after the match let alone fans having to take a half day from work. Things like that are a *** joke for match day going fans. Also been on the recieving end of Sky/BT after booking non refundable hotels and trains only for them to shift last minute. So with PL on this one, Sky/BT/SPFL GTF!

[Eyrie]

Are attendances really that much lower for most clubs when they have a home game televised compared to their other games? There is no compensation for being the home team, so I'd agree that teams are worse off, but only Septic would see a big enough change in their attendances to make up for the lost TV money. The opposite would be true for Motherwell or Dundee, where their share of the TV money is greater than the income from 400-500 fans not turning up half a dozen times a season.

The main driver for increased crowds is a competitive league playing good football. So, given the unequal split of prize money, would Lawell being willing to see the league winner's share scaled back so that the home team could receive compensation for the lower gates when a game is televised? At £25k per game, that would soon make a difference to the budgets of Inverness or St Mirren whilst Septic could easily cope with the prize money being £200-300k less.

[green&left]

Are attendances really that much lower for most clubs when they have a home game televised compared to their other games? There is no compensation for being the home team, so I'd agree that teams are worse off, but only Septic would see a big enough change in their attendances to make up for the lost TV money. The opposite would be true for Motherwell or Dundee, where their share of the TV money is greater than the income from 400-500 fans not turning up half a dozen times a season.

The main driver for increased crowds is a competitive league playing good football. So, given the unequal split of prize money, would Lawell being willing to see the league winner's share scaled back so that the home team could receive compensation for the lower gates when a game is televised? At £25k per game, that would soon make a difference to the budgets of Inverness or St Mirren whilst Septic could easily cope with the prize money being £200-300k less.

Its not really unequal though is it? The winners in every competition in the world get the most prize money. Thats the prize for winning.

Be like asking Novak Djokovic to split his prize money to help number 136 in the world to develop his tennis :greengrin

[O'Rourke3]

Lawell's a chess player. What's he really want? Celtic owning their own TV rights and not sharing with the rest of the poor so they can maximise income for themselves while complaining about the level of competition.

Atlantic League back on the agenda before Der H look like failing to make the top league. Even Terry B said on Sportscene he doesn't think they are going up.

[JimBHibees]

As part of my dissertation a few years ago I asked about the importance of various revenue streams at spl clubs. Tv revenue was a very clear winner.

I do think sky/ tv deals have ruined football by the way they've created such a wealth gap between the elite and the rest but I don't think scrapping the tv deal will do any good.

Did you find out what impact no TV deal would have on advertising?

As for Lawwell I wonder if his new strip sponsor were informed which means to me no chance of this happening.

[JimBHibees]

The yams publish a breakdown of their turnover in their accounts ( Usually Note 2 )

The copies I've got to hand 2009 - 2012 show broadcasting income varying from £ 1.5 - £ 2.5 million which was between 19% and 29% of their total income.

A comparison with their match day income shows broadcasting was between 38% and 55% of that figure.

A big gap to fill. Also, without TV all advertising revenue would be hammered, including Lawell's bigged-up Shirt deal.

Agree with that. The income is relevant to where you finish in the league also.

[CockneyRebel]

Agree with what he is saying however don't believe him as this will be him trying to negotiate. Advertising revenue would plummet if games weren't live I would imagine so all costs would need to be taken into account.



Good point

[Eyrie]

Its not really unequal though is it? The winners in every competition in the world get the most prize money. Thats the prize for winning.

Be like asking Novak Djokovic to split his prize money to help number 136 in the world to develop his tennis :greengrin

Bit more drastic than I had in mind, but interesting idea to give each club an identical sum :greengrin

I don't have the figures to hand, but there is a massive drop from first to second, and another large drop to third before the change in prize money between places becomes reasonably consistent. Decreasing the size of the gap between first/second and second/third woud be very achievable.

[The_Sauz]

He's spot on when talking about his own club but teams like us need every single penny going from tv money as 3pm kick offs on a Saturday dosen't increase the gate enough to justify scrapping the tv money.
Not according to Rod Petrie! He said 2 years ago that Hibs have been loosing money because of the TV deal and that they had more fixture changes in the league than any other team because of it :agree:

[Scottie]

Not according to Rod Petrie! He said 2 years ago that Hibs have been loosing money because of the TV deal and that they had more fixture changes in the league than any other team because of it :agree:
When have you ever believed anything that Rod Petrie has had to say :rolleyes:

[Alex Trager]

That's been the case for years, I wonder what's woken him up now?

I still have to read this thread yet but the realisation the Rangers aren't going up :)


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[Alex Trager]

Lawell's a chess player. What's he really want? Celtic owning their own TV rights and not sharing with the rest of the poor so they can maximise income for themselves while complaining about the level of competition.

Atlantic League back on the agenda before Der H look like failing to make the top league. Even Terry B said on Sportscene he doesn't think they are going up.

Off course here but did butcher say we were?


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[The_Sauz]

When have you ever believed anything that Rod Petrie has had to say :rolleyes:
I would believe him more than some random fan :rolleyes:

[Scottie]

I would believe him more than some random fan :rolleyes:
Ok Rod :thumbsup:

[Phil MaGlass]

If games were back to sat 3pm I would be able to attend more games by being able to book flights earlier in advance. I also think it has impacted on crowds at ER. Folk stopped buying st, s due to ko times, some of thesefolk then missed a couple of games due to not having a st. So I think it has definitely impacted on crowds

[NYHibby]

I don't have the figures to hand, but there is a massive drop from first to second, and another large drop to third before the change in prize money between places becomes reasonably consistent. Decreasing the size of the gap between first/second and second/third woud be very achievable.

It is not as dramatic any more. Back when the leagues merged, prize money from the top places in the SPL was redistributed downwards.

[O'Rourke3]

Off course here but did butcher say we were?


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Wouldn't commit..

[Shields Hibee]

I've got to say Sat at 3pm would always be my preferred option but then I'm old skool :greengrin

TV games may bring extra revenue to clubs but the real fans who attend games can often have to resort to watching on TV if no transport is available after FT. Friday night & Saturday 5.30pm games spring to mind here.

Most of the time Sky or BT just want to show Celtic so left to BBC to show other league meetings lower down and cup ties.

[overdrive]

I'd be delighted if we did this. Derbies at 3pm on a Saturday would be brilliant.

Sunday lunchtime kick-offs easily knock 1500-2000 off our attendances IMO, as well as being a pain in the ar$e for those that do attend.

Tell Sky to GTF.

I would normally agree but today kind of disproved that didn't it? We got a bigger attendance than most home matches recently

[Phil D. Rolls]

Eh if it was only that simple. :rolleyes:

My point is would the loss in TV revenue and sponsorship be covered by the walk ups at 3pm on a Saturday? IMO definitely NO.

It is that simple though. People aren't going to games when they are at stupid times.

[DavieRoy]

Let's take Lawwell first - Celtic only have 5 home games shown live on TV in the League (it was 4 when Rangers were in the League and two were Old Firm games), every other club has at least 6 but if you are in the bottom six, it could be 7.

Also, when Celtic were in the Europa League and had games moved to Sunday's, they requested to play them at 1pm even when they were not on TV!

Also, did Lawwell not accompany Doncaster down to London to talk to Sky and ESPN in 2012 to keep the deal?


Moving on, I remember people on here in 2012 saying Sky and ESPN better not walk away just because Rangers were not in the then SPL. They stayed, even though they were not contractually obliged, and they still get pelters.

In the past, especially in the first two years of the Setanta deal between 2004-2006, they only had 38 games a season (one a week) and they only broadcast one live Edinburgh Derby in each of the first two seasons meaning a lot of fans could not watch the game.

TV brings advertising and sponsorship.

Don't just blame TV, ask the real questions.

Why do the SFA have a superb TV deal (which gets missed) with UEFA, Sky and BBC, worth a lot of money and the SPFL don't with Sky, BT and BBC Alba?

Why do the SFA have good sponsorship deals with Vauxhall, William Hill and Adidas but the SPFL doesn't have a sponsor?

Why did the SPFL knock back £100 million + from Sky to go with Setanta in 2008 and within a year had to go to Sky/ESPN and accept what they were offered?

Why does the SPFL dilute the rights for the two companies that put more money into Scottish football than anyone else (Sky and BT) by giving BBC Alba rights for next to nothing, nearly every website highlights rights to the detriment of the clubs own websites?

What we should be looking at is working with TV to get a better deal. Not a fairer deal just because England get plenty money, the SPFL have to earn it.

Should 78 league games over four divisions be broadcast live?

Would 40-45 live games be better with an option of another 5-10 hence less TV games and disruption?

Better structured highlights deals such as the SFA's Scottish Cup deal and what the SPL had between 1998-2002?

A set TV kick off time? This probably wouldn't work for the broadcasters but it is a discussion to have.

Could the clubs do more to promote the game on TV? Should they give better access to get Sky and BT and BBC interested?

Should fans be more realistic about games being moved?

Should clubs, TV and transport officials work together when games are being rescheduled?


Rather than say 'bin TV' let's look at why we got to this point, where TV and clubs/fans can benefit together and how we can make Scottish football better.

I love when Hibernian are on TV, we get to show off our club to the rest of the UK, Europe and the World.