PDA

View Full Version : why did Hibs sell Jimmy O'Rourke?



bigwheel
16-02-2015, 12:58 PM
Can anyone recall why Hibs let Jimmy O'Rourke go in 74? ..was there a fall out?? Joe Harper related??

trev the hat
16-02-2015, 01:03 PM
To pay for the cowshed

Biggie
16-02-2015, 01:04 PM
I can remember going to Joe Harpers debut (away to Falkirk and it finsihed 0-0)....but not sure why Jimmy O'Rourke left.....probably was pissed off at Joe Harper being signed !...think this was the start of the break up of the TT's.

Gutted at losing Jimmy...an all time great.....sorry, just realised I haven't answered your question !...but Jimmy was a ledge.

Ringothedog
16-02-2015, 01:06 PM
To pay for the cowshed

Harper!! The cowshed had been there for a good few years by the time Jimmy was sold. That sale signalled the end of a great Hibs team and the start of the inexorable decline that ended in relegation at the end of the decade

H18S NX
16-02-2015, 01:07 PM
All down to wee fat joe,the beginning of the end.

Argylehibby
16-02-2015, 01:09 PM
Did Turnbull not say that he felt the team at the time were not mentally tough enough and he needed to bring in winners. Harper was the 1st of those "winners" brought in to strenghen the team and Jimmy was released to create the space / wages for that move. A big mistake or certainly a gamble that didn't pay off.

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 01:09 PM
All down to wee fat joe,the beginning of the end.
And it was nothing to do with Eddie Turnbull's decision making? Nothing at all?

BroxburnHibee
16-02-2015, 01:18 PM
Someone has mentioned wee fat Joe...........

Hide before Doddie gets ye :greengrin

southsider
16-02-2015, 01:22 PM
Harper!! The cowshed had been there for a good few years by the time Jimmy was sold. That sale signalled the end of a great Hibs team and the start of the inexorable decline that ended in relegation at the end of the decade
We didn't get much for Jimmy. Think Turnbull ad somewhat lost the plot by then. Sold to St. Johnstone for a partly sum (8,000 ?). On his first game back ae ER he was made captain and scored against us. No real celebration, just a couple of handshakes. True Hibs man and a nicer guy you could not wish to meet.

PatHead
16-02-2015, 01:24 PM
Did Turnbull not say that he felt the team at the time were not mentally tough enough and he needed to bring in winners. Harper was the 1st of those "winners" brought in to strenghen the team and Jimmy was released to create the space / wages for that move. A big mistake or certainly a gamble that didn't pay off.

I read in one of the Hibs autobiographies, can't remember which, that after the Hadjuk Split game Turnbull felt that and wanted to rebuild the team with guys like McArthur or was it McDonald in goals, Munro, Hazel, Spalding and whatever getting a start on a regular basis. Not one of the better moves. Harper arrived as part of that process.

Sure the book also said that the East Fife game when John Brownlie broke his leg meant that the Tornadoes never started a game again after the that match I think. (It was one week after 0-7). Sure I will be corrected though.

Jimmy seemed to suffer in particular when Harper arrived and his partnership with Gordon was broken up resulting in him moving to St Johnstone.

As an aside I met him in ASDA at the Jewel on Friday when he was in getting beer to watch the game on telly! Aged a wee bit but, as always, wanted to talk about Hibs though he seldom goes nowadays.

CentreLine
16-02-2015, 01:26 PM
I remember there was a story going round at the time that Tom Hart had walked in to the dressing room after the Aberdeen game when Jimmy O'Rourke had scored 2 and Allan Gordon scored 1 in a 3-1 win. He announced to the team that he had signed a "real striker" in Joe Harper and that was it as far as the most potent strike force we had in modern times was concerned. I too was at Harper's debut and couldn't see past his replacing my favourite player and so never liked him.

I have no idea of the story about Tom Hart is true or not, these things can grow arms and legs

Phil D. Rolls
16-02-2015, 01:53 PM
Don't mention Harper.

I just did it, but I don't think anybody noticed.

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 01:57 PM
Don't mention Harper.

I just did it, but I don't think anybody noticed.
Damage was already done. Doddie can currently be found screaming dementedly and booting the neigbours dogs up the yeehaws such is the rage that the very name Harper garners in him......:greengrin

Bostonhibby
16-02-2015, 02:04 PM
Turnbull unfortunately made another of the mistakes that broke a great team up too early. Not long after Jimmy came back to haunt us with an important league goal against us for st Johnstone. Didn't celebrate much if I recall correctly.

Bostonhibby
16-02-2015, 02:09 PM
Don't mention Harper.

I just did it, but I don't think anybody noticed.
You should be okay if you mention he couldn't lace Jimmy ORourkes boots.

There, I just did it to be safe

Joe Harper, decent striker, not Hibs class in that era though.

--------
16-02-2015, 02:11 PM
I remember there was a story going round at the time that Tom Hart had walked in to the dressing room after the Aberdeen game when Jimmy O'Rourke had scored 2 and Allan Gordon scored 1 in a 3-1 win. He announced to the team that he had signed a "real striker" in Joe Harper and that was it as far as the most potent strike force we had in modern times was concerned. I too was at Harper's debut and couldn't see past his replacing my favourite player and so never liked him.

I have no idea of the story about Tom Hart is true or not, these things can grow arms and legs


It wouldn't surprise me. Hart took a LOT of interest in the team - to the point of blatant interference at times - and Turnbull for all his reputation never seemed to stand up to him. I for one always assumed that the Harper signing was one that Hart put through, and Turnbull just meekly went along with. If it was, then I'd be surprised if Turnbull had much respect from the players after the event, especially once they found out what a troublemaker Harper could be.

To suggest that the Lardball had more courage or heart than Jim O'Rourke - which is basically what Turnbull did at the time - was ludicrous, and left a lot of us wondering if Turnbull had lost his marbles. Seamus had the heart of a lion and never gave less than his all for the team.

He wasn't afraid to stand up for himself, either, and that wouldn't please Tom Hart - he liked his employees to toe the line and tug the forelock, figuratively speaking.

The team Turnbull inherited from Willie Mac contained 8 of the very best players I've seen in Hibs shirts in 50 years. He added a good goalkeeper - Jim Herriot, an outstanding centre-forward, Alan Gordon, and Alex Edwards, who on his day was in the genius category. He himself admitted he over-trained the team after the 7-0 win at Tynie, instead of getting down to work out how to cope with the loss of Brownlie (injury) and Edwards (suspension). Remember he could have brought players in to replace them both, though Des Bremner had just arrived at the club and was a more than decent replacement for JB. If he'd spent the 140,000 Hart spent on Lardball in bringing in three or four quality replacements/additions to the squad, I could see the point. Punting Seamus and AG and replacing them with Lardball and Higgins was madness, but I'm convinced it came from Hart.

jdships
16-02-2015, 02:13 PM
Story from some of the players , at the time , was that J O'r had reached the end of his time according to Turnbull and he wanted to rebuild the side !!

Deansy
16-02-2015, 02:16 PM
Could never understand WHY we signed Harper - and let Jimmy go ?. Plus, we also had Alan Gordon, who, at that time, was in the running for the 'Golden Boot of Europe' as top-scorer, so Harper wasn't needed ?

Don't know if this is 'urban legend' or not but I was told Blackley, Harper and a few of the other players were in the 'Learig' after training one day and Blackley and Harper fell-out - which ended in Blackley 'Nutting Harper' clean off his bar-stool ??

BSEJVT
16-02-2015, 02:27 PM
At the time of this Eddie had severe concerns about his own health and I think it fair to say that he was distracted.

Having been part of such a great and successful side he found what he considered the weak mentality of some of their losses hard to take and wanted to make changes.

He is far from alone in the pantheon of great and successful players who couldn't as manager deal with those not as gifted or lacking the same mentality as him.

Eddie was a hard hard man from another era (war) altogether and didn't accept failure or fools easily.

Even he would admit later on the changes back fired, but they were made to drive the team forward not destroy it.

Harper didn't fit the structure of the team, which was a fast paced attacking side, and like many at the time I hated him and blamed him for the start of the break up, but his goals / games record wasn't that bad.

There is a saying somewhere that I will mangle along the lines of don't be sorry for what you lost be grateful you had it.

Watching the Tornadoes in full flow was like nothing I have ever seen before or since and I have grown to look back gratefully on those memories, rather than recriminate over how they were ended too soon.

A footballers life in those days was little better than serfdom, the club said go and you went, if you didn't they put you out the game.

I asked another ex player not that long ago about his leaving also for St Johnstone (also under ET) and it was as brutal as going in the morning for training completely unaware he was no longer wanted to be told he had been sold.

He didn't want to go and asked what would happen if he didn't and was left in no doubt that it was in his interests to go.

Its just a pity the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction in favour of players.

southsider
16-02-2015, 02:29 PM
Could never understand WHY we signed Harper - and let Jimmy go ?. Plus, we also had Alan Gordon, who, at that time, was in the running for the 'Golden Boot of Europe' as top-scorer, so Harper wasn't needed ?

Don't know if this is 'urban legend' or not but I was told Blackley, Harper and a few of the other players were in the 'Learig' after training one day and Blackley and Harper fell-out - which ended in Blackley 'Nutting Harper' clean off his bar-stool ??
The season before Harper came Corky AG and Arthur scored 99 goals between them

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 02:31 PM
At the time of this Eddie had severe concerns about his own health and I think it fair to say that he was distracted.

Having been part of such a great and successful side he found what he considered the weak mentality of some of their losses hard to take and wanted to make changes.

He is far from alone in the pantheon of great and successful players who couldn't as manager deal with those not as gifted or lacking the same mentality as him.

Eddie was a hard hard man from another era (war) altogether and didn't accept failure or fools easily.

Even he would admit later on the changes back fired, but they were made to drive the team forward not destroy it.

Harper didn't fit the structure of the team, which was a fast paced attacking side, and like many at the time I hated him and blamed him for the start of the break up, but his goals / games record wasn't that bad.

There is a saying somewhere that I will mangle along the lines of don't be sorry for what you lost be grateful you had it.

Watching the Tornadoes in full flow was like nothing I have ever seen before or since and I have grown to look back gratefully on those memories, rather than recriminate over how they were ended too soon.

A footballers life in those days was little better than serfdom, the club said go and you went, if you didn't they put you out the game.

I asked another ex player not that long ago about his leaving also for St Johnstone (also under ET) and it was as brutal as going in the morning for training completely unaware he was no longer wanted to be told he had been sold.

He didn't want to go and asked what would happen if he didn't and was left in no doubt that it was in his interests to go.

Its just a pity the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction in favour of players.

If you believe Wiki (I know) then his scoring average was right up there with Jimmy O'Rourke, in fact it's actually very slightly better. Obviously I don't know how many were friendlies etc....

Tom Hart RIP
16-02-2015, 02:40 PM
I spoke to Jimmy a few years ago when he had the corrie inn and I'm sure he spoke highly of Tom Hart and said the cause of being a Hibby he was one of THs favourites.
ET certainly wanted Joe Harper whom he believed wrongly as it turned out that it would improve the team.
Terrible decision but made for the right seasons.
I like most didn't take to Harper but his scoring record with us was good if I remember correctly.

Tom Hart RIP
16-02-2015, 02:43 PM
At that time we could have got Alan Rough and Gordon McQueen for about 60k
Easy in hindsight I suppose

--------
16-02-2015, 02:48 PM
If you believe Wiki (I know) then his scoring average was right up there with Jimmy O'Rourke, in fact it's actually very slightly better. Obviously I don't know how many were friendlies etc....


10 of them can be accounted for by a friendly against a Dutch side where he score 5, a Drybrough semi when he scored 2 against Rangers long after the tie was lost, and 3 in a League Cup Final against Celtic when again he score 2 long after the game was gone. So take out 10 goals and 3 games and see what his average is then.

It wasn't that he couldn't play - you never knew whether he was going to play or not. Never knew anyone who could totally disappear from sight in a game like Harper - not even Brian Kerr!

And remember that Seamus hd been tagged with being a 'utility' player - for a lot of his time at Hibs he was in and out of the team, and not always played up front. That affected his goals average. To be fair to Turnbull, he was the manager who played Jim as second striker beside and behind AG, where he flourished. And then he took it all apart ...

Phil D. Rolls
16-02-2015, 02:53 PM
Don't mention Harper.

I just did it, but I don't think anybody noticed.


Damage was already done. Doddie can currently be found screaming dementedly and booting the neigbours dogs up the yeehaws such is the rage that the very name Harper garners in him......:greengrin


You should be okay if you mention he couldn't lace Jimmy ORourkes boots.

There, I just did it to be safe

Joe Harper, decent striker, not Hibs class in that era though.

Too late!


10 of them can be accounted for by a friendly against a Dutch side where he score 5, a Drybrough semi when he scored 2 against Rangers long after the tie was lost, and 3 in a League Cup Final against Celtic when again he score 2 long after the game was gone. So take out 10 goals and 3 games and see what his average is then.

It wasn't that he couldn't play - you never knew whether he was going to play or not. Never knew anyone who could totally disappear from sight in a game like Harper - not even Brian Kerr!

And remember that Seamus hd been tagged with being a 'utility' player - for a lot of his time at Hibs he was in and out of the team, and not always played up front. That affected his goals average. To be fair to Turnbull, he was the manager who played Jim as second striker beside and behind AG, where he flourished. And then he took it all apart ...

Thankfully nobody has been daft enough to mention Harper's strike rate, which is very respectable in a games to goals analysis. Eh....

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 02:55 PM
10 of them can be accounted for by a friendly against a Dutch side where he score 5, a Drybrough semi when he scored 2 against Rangers long after the tie was lost, and 3 in a League Cup Final against Celtic when again he score 2 long after the game was gone. So take out 10 goals and 3 games and see what his average is then.

It wasn't that he couldn't play - you never knew whether he was going to play or not. Never knew anyone who could totally disappear from sight in a game like Harper - not even Brian Kerr!

And remember that Seamus hd been tagged with being a 'utility' player - for a lot of his time at Hibs he was in and out of the team, and not always played up front. That affected his goals average. To be fair to Turnbull, he was the manager who played Jim as second striker beside and behind AG, where he flourished. And then he took it all apart ...
You can take out the goals in friendlies but not goals scored in a competitive match, even if the game was lost. Also, if you are going to take Harpers friendly goals then you have to do the same for Jim O'Rourke then compare averages. You can't tilt the books just because you don't like him Doddie......

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 02:56 PM
Too late!



Thankfully nobody has been daft enough to mention Harper's strike rate, which is very respectable in a games to goals analysis. Eh....
I already had :greengrin

Tom Hart RIP
16-02-2015, 02:59 PM
If you take away his 2 against Rangers, 3 against Celtic and 5 against the Dutch side then he scored 44 in 97 competitive games.
Add them in and he scored 54 in 100 games.
Not trying to justify signing and wish we hadn't signed him but he knew where the goals were.
Amazing to think we held the transfer record for scottish teams.

Turkish Green
16-02-2015, 03:08 PM
On an aside...

Harper made his Scotland debut in 1972 as a sub against Denmark. The game was televised and when Harper was about to come on the English commentator was heard to say: And it's little Joe Harper from... little Joe Harper from... little Joe Harper from... (pause) the substitutes bench.

The Corstorphine Inn when it was run by Jimmy used to be my local.

Kojock
16-02-2015, 03:17 PM
I have some faint memory of a story going around at the time that Harper was allegedly binned by Hibs after he was caught rifling his team mates pockets in the dressing room while they were out training. Rumours were he had a gambling problem.

greenginger
16-02-2015, 03:51 PM
It wouldn't surprise me. Hart took a LOT of interest in the team - to the point of blatant interference at times - and Turnbull for all his reputation never seemed to stand up to him. I for one always assumed that the Harper signing was one that Hart put through, and Turnbull just meekly went along with. If it was, then I'd be surprised if Turnbull had much respect from the players after the event, especially once they found out what a troublemaker Harper could be.

To suggest that the Lardball had more courage or heart than Jim O'Rourke - which is basically what Turnbull did at the time - was ludicrous, and left a lot of us wondering if Turnbull had lost his marbles. Seamus had the heart of a lion and never gave less than his all for the team.

He wasn't afraid to stand up for himself, either, and that wouldn't please Tom Hart - he liked his employees to toe the line and tug the forelock, figuratively speaking.

The team Turnbull inherited from Willie Mac contained 8 of the very best players I've seen in Hibs shirts in 50 years. He added a good goalkeeper - Jim Herriot, an outstanding centre-forward, Alan Gordon, and Alex Edwards, who on his day was in the genius category. He himself admitted he over-trained the team after the 7-0 win at Tynie, instead of getting down to work out how to cope with the loss of Brownlie (injury) and Edwards (suspension). Remember he could have brought players in to replace them both, though Des Bremner had just arrived at the club and was a more than decent replacement for JB. If he'd spent the 140,000 Hart spent on Lardball in bringing in three or four quality replacements/additions to the squad, I could see the point. Punting Seamus and AG and replacing them with Lardball and Higgins was madness, but I'm convinced it came from Hart.


Harper had played for Turnbull at Aberdeen, having been bought by Turnbull from Morton.

Harper was Turnbull's choice 100 per cent.

--------
16-02-2015, 03:53 PM
Damage was already done. Doddie can currently be found screaming dementedly and booting the neigbours dogs up the yeehaws such is the rage that the very name Harper garners in him......:greengrin


I have already posted twice in a reasonably responsible manner, recalling what I can remember of a day longer ago than I care to consider.

However, I would never visit my rage on any poor innocent animal.

Like the Mikado in the opera, I pride myself on my humanity. But for Harper - something lingering, with boiling oil or melted lead in it, would I think, be approximately appropriate to his sins and deliciously deleterious to his health and survival ....

As for the OP's question, once things began to break down and it became progessively clearer that we were on the downward slope, rumours were flying around ER about all sorts of things, and anyone recalling these events can really only recount the rumours they heard, and recount them after the lapse of 20, 30, even 40 years.

What I've posted is what I heard, as best I can recall it. Please don't take it for anything more than that.

But Hart and Turnbull took over Hibs with a better squad and in a healthier position than anyone else I can think of, and they essentially squandered it, and for that I hold them responsible.

An ET quote which just about sums the time up perfectly - when Benny Brazil made his debut, ET told the press that Benny would be "the next Pat Stanton".

There must have been another Pat Stanton around somewhere that I don't know about, because Benny (bless) resembled King Paddy about as much as I resemble the Duke John Wayne.

Kato
16-02-2015, 03:58 PM
I for one always assumed that the Harper signing was one that Hart put through, and Turnbull just meekly went along with. If it was, then I'd be surprised if Turnbull had much respect from the players after the event, especially once they found out what a troublemaker Harper could be.

I think you're "assuming" and "if"ing a lot there.

Turnbull wanted to win the League. The team with Gordon and O'Rourke failed to do so and he saw Harper as someone who could maybe do that or win the SC. Turnbull had signed him previously signed him for Aberdeen and they won the Scottish Cup with Harper scoring in the final.

People forget Gordon was getting on a bit and Jimmy had a long standing ankle injury which saw him coming on as a late sub quite often when it was playing up.

Whatever retrospective viewpoint or hatred towards Harper people hold Turnbull signed him, Hart paid up. Hart wasn't stupid, he knew Turnbull was a great manager and describing Eddie as "meek" is about as far away from his personality as you can possibly get.

Harper's personality and "problems" off the field probably made him unpopular with the rest of the team, but hindsight is a great thing to have when assessing those problems.

He was signed to make the team better, it didn't work - sh** happens in football.

Ray-in-ireland
16-02-2015, 03:59 PM
I was living in the Granada region when Harper signed therefore used to see a lot of the Everton games on the tele at that time. Harper had been moved deeper to accommodate Bob Latchford and Harper was regularly Everton's best player, so I was delighted when he signed

When Harper was with ET at Aberdeen, ET wanted to sign Alan Gordon to pair him with what he described was the dream partnership.

There is no doubt that, that Hibs team failed to live up to expectations, probabally a mix between players and management. Doddiementioned that ET inherited 8 of the best players he (and me) had ever seen. That's true, but they won the square route of FA, sure we were treated to some fabulas performances, but as a team they were woefully inconsistent.

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 04:01 PM
I have already posted twice in a reasonably responsible manner, recalling what I can remember of a day longer ago than I care to consider.

However, I would never visit my rage on any poor innocent animal.

Like the Mikado in the opera, I pride myself on my humanity. But for Harper - something lingering, with boiling oil or melted lead in it, would I think, be approximately appropriate to his sins and deliciously deleterious to his health and survival ....

As for the OP's question, once things began to break down and it became progessively clearer that we were on the downward slope, rumours were flying around ER about all sorts of things, and anyone recalling these events can really only recount the rumours they heard, and recount them after the lapse of 20, 30, even 40 years.

What I've posted is what I heard, as best I can recall it. Please don't take it for anything more than that.

But Hart and Turnbull took over Hibs with a better squad and in a healthier position than anyone else I can think of, and they essentially squandered it, and for that I hold them responsible.

An ET quote which just about sums the time up perfectly - when Benny Brazil made his debut, ET told the press that Benny would be "the next Pat Stanton".

There must have been another Pat Stanton around somewhere that I don't know about, because Benny (bless) resembled King Paddy about as much as I resemble the Duke John Wayne.

That's pretty much been my point all along - Joe didn't come chapping on our door to play for us. That was all ET's decision and it really wouldn't have mattered who followed Jimmy O'Rourke - he would have got a hard time due to the fondness for Jimmy. Ironically, if memory serves me correctly, Mark McGhee got the same treatment initially at Aberdeen when he followed Harper.....

Kato
16-02-2015, 04:08 PM
I was living in the Granada region when Harper signed therefore used to see a lot of the Everton games on the tele at that time. Harper had been moved deeper to accommodate Bob Latchford and Harper was regularly Everton's best player

That's true which is why he cost a pretty penny. Another aspect which was probably lost on ET was Harper's lifestyle whilst he was at Everton. He stayed at Freddie Starr's house whilst playing there, whether any of Freddie's habits rubbed off on Harper during his stay there is unknown to me but he certainly enjoyed the bevvy too much. The "beard" story isn't as simple as it was portrayed in the press.

bigwheel
16-02-2015, 04:39 PM
Thanks guys for engaging on this topic - great insights and interesting views !!

--------
16-02-2015, 04:54 PM
I think you're "assuming" and "if"ing a lot there.

Turnbull wanted to win the League. The team with Gordon and O'Rourke failed to do so and he saw Harper as someone who could maybe do that or win the SC. Turnbull had signed him previously signed him for Aberdeen and they won the Scottish Cup with Harper scoring in the final.

People forget Gordon was getting on a bit and Jimmy had a long standing ankle injury which saw him coming on as a late sub quite often when it was playing up.

Whatever retrospective viewpoint or hatred towards Harper people hold Turnbull signed him, Hart paid up. Hart wasn't stupid, he knew Turnbull was a great manager and describing Eddie as "meek" is about as far away from his personality as you can possibly get.

Harper's personality and "problems" off the field probably made him unpopular with the rest of the team, but hindsight is a great thing to have when assessing those problems.

He was signed to make the team better, it didn't work - sh** happens in football.

Alan Gordon was 30 in 1974. If that's 'getting on a bit', there are a lot of players out there who should be on Zimmer frames.

Uwe Seeler was 'getting on a bit', according to David Coleman - a view Coleman expressed just before Seeler scored the late equaliser in the WC quarter-final in 1970. He was 34.

Joe McBride came to us aged 30, top-scored for the club the next 2 seasons, and scored a European hat-trick for us aged 31 against Malmo.

Russell Latapy was 30 when he arrived - seemed to be able to work a shift OK to my eye.

Samuel Eto'o is 35 next month. Ronaldo (the Brazilian) scored his 15th World Cup goal just a couple of months short of 30. Christiano Ronaldo was 30 just 11 days ago.

Harper didn't have personality problems - he was a problem personality who had moved from Greenock to Aberdeen and from Aberdeen to Liverpool and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh leaving trouble in his wake wherever he had been. Turnbull had no excuse for not knowing this, and to bring someone like that into a previously harmonious dressing-room was stupid to say the least.

And having brought him in, he should have managed him a lot more effectively. Harper was trouble, and ET should have known it and acted accordingly.

Don't forget that Harper was also involved in the fight in the Copenhagen "night club" (along with Bremner, Young, McCluskey and Graham) that led to Willie Ormond's sacking as Scotland manager and the appointment of that idiot McLeod. He was just a bad apple.

As for 'meek' - I'm well-aware of how abrasive and forceful he could be with his players, but I take leave to question whether he was able to stand up to the extremely forceful personality of Tom Hart. All I heard at the time suggests he was not.

Kato
16-02-2015, 05:09 PM
Alan Gordon was 30 in 1974. If that's 'getting on a bit', there are a lot of players out there who should be on Zimmer frames.

Uwe Seeler was 'getting on a bit', according to David Coleman - a view Coleman expressed just before Seeler scored the late equaliser in the WC quarter-final in 1970. He was 34.

Joe McBride came to us aged 30, top-scored for the club the next 2 seasons, and scored a European hat-trick for us aged 31 against Malmo.

Russell Latapy was 30 when he arrived - seemed to be able to work a shift OK to my eye.

Samuel Eto'o is 35 next month. Ronaldo (the Brazilian) scored his 15th World Cup goal just a couple of months short of 30. Christiano Ronaldo was 30 just 11 days ago.

Harper didn't have personality problems - he was a problem personality who had moved from Greenock to Aberdeen and from Aberdeen to Liverpool and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh leaving trouble in his wake wherever he had been. Turnbull had no excuse for not knowing this, and to bring someone like that into a previously harmonious dressing-room was stupid to say the least.

And having brought him in, he should have managed him a lot more effectively. Harper was trouble, and ET should have known it and acted accordingly.

Don't forget that Harper was also involved in the fight in the Copenhagen "night club" (along with Bremner, Young, McCluskey and Graham) that led to Willie Ormond's sacking as Scotland manager and the appointment of that idiot McLeod. He was just a bad apple.

As for 'meek' - I'm well-aware of how abrasive and forceful he could be with his players, but I take leave to question whether he was able to stand up to the extremely forceful personality of Tom Hart. All I heard at the time suggests he was not.

You didn't address the fact that the team with Gordon and O'Rourke failed to win the League or the Scottish Cup. Harper had already proved that he could win one of them.

Harper didn't just "move" from Morton to Aberdeen, Turnbull signed him for Aberdeen. Or did Hart make Turnbull sign him then as well?

Pretty Boy
16-02-2015, 05:21 PM
I'm sure I remember, perhaps on here, that Harper was left disillusioned as the Tornadoes team was dismantled around him. He was under the impression he was being signed to be a part of that team not to see it broken up.

greenginger
16-02-2015, 05:41 PM
Alan Gordon was 30 in 1974. If that's 'getting on a bit', there are a lot of players out there who should be on Zimmer frames.

Uwe Seeler was 'getting on a bit', according to David Coleman - a view Coleman expressed just before Seeler scored the late equaliser in the WC quarter-final in 1970. He was 34.

Joe McBride came to us aged 30, top-scored for the club the next 2 seasons, and scored a European hat-trick for us aged 31 against Malmo.

Russell Latapy was 30 when he arrived - seemed to be able to work a shift OK to my eye.

Samuel Eto'o is 35 next month. Ronaldo (the Brazilian) scored his 15th World Cup goal just a couple of months short of 30. Christiano Ronaldo was 30 just 11 days ago.

Harper didn't have personality problems - he was a problem personality who had moved from Greenock to Aberdeen and from Aberdeen to Liverpool and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh leaving trouble in his wake wherever he had been. Turnbull had no excuse for not knowing this, and to bring someone like that into a previously harmonious dressing-room was stupid to say the least.

And having brought him in, he should have managed him a lot more effectively. Harper was trouble, and ET should have known it and acted accordingly.

Don't forget that Harper was also involved in the fight in the Copenhagen "night club" (along with Bremner, Young, McCluskey and Graham) that led to Willie Ormond's sacking as Scotland manager and the appointment of that idiot McLeod. He was just a bad apple.

As for 'meek' - I'm well-aware of how abrasive and forceful he could be with his players, but I take leave to question whether he was able to stand up to the extremely forceful personality of Tom Hart. All I heard at the time suggests he was not.


Alan Gordon played a total of 36 games and scored 8 goals after leaving Hibs.

--------
16-02-2015, 05:45 PM
"You didn't address the fact that the team with Gordon and O'Rourke failed to win the League or the Scottish Cup. Harper had already proved that he could win one of them."

Did Turnbull have no responsibility in this? He was the manager and coach.

I'm not saying that the team and reserves available to Turnbull on 1/1/73 would have won League without transfer activity to strengthen it.

But are you saying that given another chance, that team couldn't have won the Scottish Cup? Playing as they played in the League Cup in 1972, they certainly might have. They were never given another chance, is what I'm saying.

And Harper didn't win the Scottish Cup - he was just one player in a Cup-winning team of 11. He possessed no intrinsic cup-winning magic all his own. Clark and Buchan and Forrest and Hermiston and the rest had as much to do with that win as he had.

Derek McKay certainly had - he scored twice, and not from the penalty spot, either. According to your logic, we should have signed HIM rather than Harper, surely?


"Harper didn't just "move" from Morton to Aberdeen, Turnbull signed him for Aberdeen. Or did Hart make Turnbull sign him then as well?"

Now you're just being silly - why on earth would Tom Hart make ET sign Harper for Aberdeen, first or second time around? And how could he?

Turnbull obviously rated Harper - no dispute about that. But whether he was right in rating him so highly that he was prepared to go for broke and blow the whole transfer kitty on him on the basis that his signing would 'win Hibs the league' - ET's words, not mine - is highly debatable.

140,000 was a massive amount of money in those days - the equivalent of what - 10 million, 15 million in today's transfer values? And Harper was flawed - the alleged character defects that have already been alluded to. Bringing in one player rarely if ever wins any club a trophy - football's a team game and the team has to play for one another and be a team. Someone who could have fulfilled Alex Edwards' role, but a better player, MIGHT have done so, but Harper wasn't that player.

People who gamble like that, putting the whole bundle on one massive wager to win the lot - casinos have a name for them. They're called 'mugs'.

3pm
16-02-2015, 05:54 PM
I thought Joe Harper was decent. And could have won us the league.

greenginger
16-02-2015, 05:59 PM
I thought Joe Harper was decent. And could have won us the league.

I thought he was an excellent player, unfortunately

He never got properly fit,

The fans never really took to him,

He was an arrogant little prick, who thought he was better than any other player at Easter Road because he had played for Everton.

--------
16-02-2015, 06:01 PM
Alan Gordon played a total of 36 games and scored 8 goals after leaving Hibs.


Your point?

Turnbull could foresee that Alan would be injured, and that Dundee would be rubbish and get relegated in his second season?

If he COULD see into the future, fine. If he couldn't, his judgement on the man's past record at ER might/should have told him something different.

3pm
16-02-2015, 06:10 PM
I thought he was an excellent player, unfortunately

He never got properly fit,

The fans never really took to him,

He was an arrogant little prick, who thought he was better than any other player at Easter Road because he had played for Everton.

I've never seen Joe Harper play! :o)

HoboHarry
16-02-2015, 06:19 PM
I thought he was an excellent player, unfortunately

He never got properly fit,

The fans never really took to him,

He was an arrogant little prick, who thought he was better than any other player at Easter Road because he had played for Everton.
Because he played for Everton? He just had great belief in himself and he was a winner. I'll take them at Easter Road every day of the week. Even Calderwood said we were soft as s***e in mentality and any team with 11 players with Harper's mentality would never be accused of that.

blackpoolhibs
16-02-2015, 06:19 PM
I think there was a lot more to us going backwards than Harper being a prick, in fact he could point out he scored just as many goals as any of the players he was supposed to replace.

Injuries to key players, others sold where more of a reason we went into decline more than it being Harpers fault.

I will also always remember that goal against Liverpool who were a quality team at the time.

PeeJay
16-02-2015, 06:32 PM
Think maybe Harper gets too badly treated by some on this forum. He came to Hibs, but would much rather have gone to Aberdeen, but time, a bidding war apparently cleverly manipulated by Everton and circumstances threw the dice our way. He was also expecting to play with the "Tornadoes" team, but Cropley, Brownlie, Gordon and Jimmy O'Rourke who still went on to score goals (against us too) were all flogged off, after Harper's arrival so he had some reason to be pissed off at the club too IMO. Turnbull wanted him to team up with Gordon and he did score lots of goals for us, but the fan favourites were very difficult to replace - anyone would have had it tough, I guess.

People complain now about fans booing, but this guy got booed off after scoring 5 goals in one game for us - not by the opposition fans either! With hindsight, Turnbull was probably wrong to break up the team at that time ... thought Harper was decent with us myself ...

ancient hibee
16-02-2015, 06:37 PM
In Harper's first game 0-0 at Falkirk in fact the team started with Harper alongside O'Rourke and Gordon on the bench,Gordon came on -can't remember who went off.Harper had an excellent scoring record at Hibs but wasn't O'Rourke-hence not popular.O'Rourke had been a long time at Hibs much of it in the reserves but was very popular.Turnbull rightly realised that we were never going to win the league with that team because we were soft but in my opinion identified the wrong problem.It wasn't lack of goals that was letting us down it was weakness down the middle.Anyone who watched Dixie Deans regularly out jumping Black to trot on and knock it past Herriot knows where we were soft.It was centre half and goalkeeper that should have been replaced and George Stewart should have been brought in long before he was.
All the rumours about Harper are I think complete s***e made up at the time by people who had to have a reason to get at him and couldn't complain about a lack of goals or effort.The idea that ET was afraid of Tom Hart is laughable.ORourke is one of my all time favourite players.

schinkenotto
16-02-2015, 07:22 PM
I'm probably biased because Alan Gordon was one of my best friends-I played golf with him and our families went on holiday together-but I think ET eventually realised he'd made a mistake in virtually sacking Alan and Jimmy.He told Alan that the Turnbull's Tornadoes had failed him and were "too soft" to win the League.He also later got rid of Pat Stanton for the same reason.

Harper's style of play and attitude destroyed the team and at the time there were many letters to the press(including one from me!) referring to the "dismantling" of a great team,before it had reached its peak.Alan was quite upset that the man,who had rescued his career destroyed it prematurely

However to be fair to ET,Alan said that he was by far the best coach he had ever had,and I know from personal experience that they had a great mutual respect for each other and that ET was a great support to Alan during his health problems and his final illness.

Harper was obviously very close to ETas he was one of the pallbearers at ET's funeral.

Kato
16-02-2015, 07:58 PM
Turnbull obviously rated Harper - no dispute about that. But whether he was right in rating him so highly that he was prepared to go for broke and blow the whole transfer kitty on him on the basis that his signing would 'win Hibs the league' - ET's words, not mine - is debatable.



I thought, according to you, Hart signed Harper?

I don't think you see things very clearly regarding that era. You've built up a "rep" of slating Harper and are incapable of letting that go and see things objectively.



In hindsight it was a mistake to sign him. Easy peasy to say, in hindsight. hanging loads of spurious assumptions, and "from what I heards" on that hindsight just doesn't fly.


My logic, btw is that we should have signed a big f*** of centre half to kick Celtic players up and down the park, just like John Hughes used to do to us.

My logic also says Bob Shankley/Willie McFarlane's team was no-where near as good as Turnbull's on it's day or off it.

My logic also says Turnbull asked Hart to sign Harper and Hart blew the budget on him.

I don't what your logic says on the subject as you seem incapable of displaying any.

Hiber-nation
16-02-2015, 08:00 PM
Nobody (including me) wants to hear it but the 2 seasons after the Tornadoes broke up we finished 2nd both times, 1 place higher and with 4 points more than in the magical 72-73 season.

Jimmy still scored 19 goals in 73-74 though.

bigwheel
16-02-2015, 08:08 PM
Nobody (including me) wants to hear it but the 2 seasons after the Tornadoes broke up we finished 2nd both times, 1 place higher and with 4 points more than in the magical 72-73 season.

Jimmy still scored 19 goals in 73-74 though.


maybe my OP should have been - why did we sell Harper? I'll duck now... :)

emerald green
16-02-2015, 08:15 PM
The person who could have answered this question is of course no longer with us - the late Eddie Turnbull. It wasn't just ET's strange treatment of Jimmy O'Rourke though. He frequently left Jimmy out of the team for reasons only he knew, despite Jimmy's excellent scoring record and his pride in playing for the jersey.

I think it goes back to when Hibs beat Hadjuk Split at ER by 4-2 in the quarter final of the European Cup Winners Cup. Hibs lost a second goal in the last minutes of that game after having murdered them basically, and should have been out of sight (some things never change).

Hibs then lost the return leg 3-0, and the chance of a place in a European competition semi-final, possibly even the final itself. I remember hearing the score coming over the radio and being absolutely amazed and gutted that Hibs had chucked it away. Turnbull was furious, and he began dismantling the team long before he should have. A serious error of judgement on ET's part IMHO.

I'm going to quote from a paragraph in Ted Brack's book "There is a Bonny Fitba Team" (hope that's OK?).

"The team (Turnbull's Tornadoes) was cruelly broken up by a manager whose anger at a couple of defeats in major matches was such that he wrote off a golden generation of Hibs greats when they were still in their prime. Turnbull later admitted that he may have been too hasty in breaking his team up."

Quite an understatement.

snooky
16-02-2015, 08:35 PM
I was at the Falkirk game and can confirm Corky and JH started with AG on the bench. (Alan's memory fails him on one of the Hibs DVDs as he says he & Jimmy were on the bench).
The story I heard was that Alan wanted to go part time to study to be an accountant and Ned said all HFC players had to be full time. That was why Alan was sold.
Why we sold Jimmy I'll never know. He was my fav player. He got picked when we were playing well but couldn't get a game when we were crap. Go figure.
I also saw him score the winner for St J. I had mixed feelings at the time. I imagine Jimmy had the same.

bigwheel
16-02-2015, 08:51 PM
I was at the Falkirk game and can confirm Corky and JH started with AG on the bench. (Alan's memory fails him on one of the Hibs DVDs as he says he & Jimmy were on the bench).
The story I heard was that Alan wanted to go part time to study to be an accountant and Ned said all HFC players had to be full time. That was why Alan was sold.
Why we sold Jimmy I'll never know. He was my fav player. He got picked when we were playing well but couldn't get a game when we were crap. Go figure.
I also saw him score the winner for St J. I had mixed feelings at the time. I imagine Jimmy had the same.

i remember that...muted reaction..a few handshakes as he ran back to the centre line if I recall correctly...

malcolm-bogie
16-02-2015, 09:45 PM
It should be mentioned that over 10000 Hibs supporters travelled to watch Harpers debut. We can all look back on it now and say that it heralded the end of the Tornadoes but at the time the signing of Harper was like Hibs going out now and spending 7 or 8 m on a top international player. We were already a fantastic side but we were just short of being a side that won trophies on a regular basis. Turnbull thought the signing of Harper would and probably should have taken us on to the next level but as we all know now it was the beginning of the end of a glorious couple of years.

Dashing Bob S
16-02-2015, 09:51 PM
In his debut at Falkirk, Harper replaced Alan Gordon. Then Turnbull decided that there was only room for one chunky striker and had a Harper v O'Rourke pie eating contest behind the stand. Harper narrowly won but both players were so incapacitated by lard overdose that neither properly kicked a ball again.

The_Sauz
16-02-2015, 10:20 PM
Alan Gordon was 30 in 1974. If that's 'getting on a bit', there are a lot of players out there who should be on Zimmer frames.

Uwe Seeler was 'getting on a bit', according to David Coleman - a view Coleman expressed just before Seeler scored the late equaliser in the WC quarter-final in 1970. He was 34.

Joe McBride came to us aged 30, top-scored for the club the next 2 seasons, and scored a European hat-trick for us aged 31 against Malmo.

Russell Latapy was 30 when he arrived - seemed to be able to work a shift OK to my eye.

Samuel Eto'o is 35 next month. Ronaldo (the Brazilian) scored his 15th World Cup goal just a couple of months short of 30. Christiano Ronaldo was 30 just 11 days ago.

Harper didn't have personality problems - he was a problem personality who had moved from Greenock to Aberdeen and from Aberdeen to Liverpool and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh leaving trouble in his wake wherever he had been. Turnbull had no excuse for not knowing this, and to bring someone like that into a previously harmonious dressing-room was stupid to say the least.

And having brought him in, he should have managed him a lot more effectively. Harper was trouble, and ET should have known it and acted accordingly.

Don't forget that Harper was also involved in the fight in the Copenhagen "night club" (along with Bremner, Young, McCluskey and Graham) that led to Willie Ormond's sacking as Scotland manager and the appointment of that idiot McLeod. He was just a bad apple.

As for 'meek' - I'm well-aware of how abrasive and forceful he could be with his players, but I take leave to question whether he was able to stand up to the extremely forceful personality of Tom Hart. All I heard at the time suggests he was not.

Le God was 34 when he joined us....well past his prime :greengrin

brog
16-02-2015, 10:25 PM
Interesting thread, just some random comments & facts on prior posts.
1. Joe Harper was 100% ET's signing. Just a few years ago I heard ET insisting that JH was the best player he ever managed. Harper's fee was 120k.
2. No Hibs player since JH has equalled his scoring ratio for Hibs.
3. The week after JH's debut ET realised his mistake & restored the Gordon/O'Rourke duo for the cup tie at Perth. Jimmy scored all 3 goals in a 3-1 win.
4. The story about JH going thru pockets of other players actually dates back to his time at Morton but I can't vouch for veracity. I believe it's an urban myth, & AFAIK it never happened at ER.

Mibbes Aye
16-02-2015, 10:42 PM
At the time of this Eddie had severe concerns about his own health and I think it fair to say that he was distracted.

Having been part of such a great and successful side he found what he considered the weak mentality of some of their losses hard to take and wanted to make changes.

He is far from alone in the pantheon of great and successful players who couldn't as manager deal with those not as gifted or lacking the same mentality as him.

Eddie was a hard hard man from another era (war) altogether and didn't accept failure or fools easily.

Even he would admit later on the changes back fired, but they were made to drive the team forward not destroy it.

Harper didn't fit the structure of the team, which was a fast paced attacking side, and like many at the time I hated him and blamed him for the start of the break up, but his goals / games record wasn't that bad.

There is a saying somewhere that I will mangle along the lines of don't be sorry for what you lost be grateful you had it.

Watching the Tornadoes in full flow was like nothing I have ever seen before or since and I have grown to look back gratefully on those memories, rather than recriminate over how they were ended too soon.

A footballers life in those days was little better than serfdom, the club said go and you went, if you didn't they put you out the game.

I asked another ex player not that long ago about his leaving also for St Johnstone (also under ET) and it was as brutal as going in the morning for training completely unaware he was no longer wanted to be told he had been sold.

He didn't want to go and asked what would happen if he didn't and was left in no doubt that it was in his interests to go.

Its just a pity the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction in favour of players.

I think that's an important point and one easy to forget or miss.

I'm lucky still to have family who served and I remember family no longer with us who lived and served in the war.

We can only struggle to imagine what it would be like to live in an environment of total war.

I don't doubt it made for a completely different culture and mindset from what I could imagine.

schinkenotto
16-02-2015, 10:44 PM
I was at the Falkirk game and can confirm Corky and JH started with AG on the bench. (Alan's memory fails him on one of the Hibs DVDs as he says he & Jimmy were on the bench).
The story I heard was that Alan wanted to go part time to study to be an accountant and Ned said all HFC players had to be full time. That was why Alan was sold.
Why we sold Jimmy I'll never know. He was my fav player. He got picked when we were playing well but couldn't get a game when we were crap. Go figure.
I also saw him score the winner for St J. I had mixed feelings at the time. I imagine Jimmy had the same.
By that time Alan was a fully qualified CA and also had an MA degree.He did not want to go part time.If he had I don't think he would have gone to Dundee,which would have eaten into his time by travelling.At that time ET wanted him out-simple.
As a matter of interest Jim McLean wanted him to live in Dundee,when he played for United.At that time,Alan wanted to remain in Edinburgh,thus opening the door for his Hibs career.

snooky
16-02-2015, 11:10 PM
By that time Alan was a fully qualified CA and also had an MA degree.He did not want to go part time.If he had I don't think he would have gone to Dundee,which would have eaten into his time by travelling.At that time ET wanted him out-simple.
As a matter of interest Jim McLean wanted him to live in Dundee,when he played for United.At that time,Alan wanted to remain in Edinburgh,thus opening the door for his Hibs career.

Thanks for the clarifications, sch'tto. :aok:
I was relating the (wrong apparently) story I was told back then.

Ray-in-ireland
17-02-2015, 07:32 AM
maybe my OP should have been - why did we sell Harper? I'll duck now... :)

Your not too far off the mark with this one. His last game for Hibs was a reserve match, where he scored five goals, he went on and won further honours in Fergie's Aberdeen team and after his departure, Hibs had to wait until the 80's before they got another regular goal scoring forward.

brog
17-02-2015, 12:00 PM
Think maybe Harper gets too badly treated by some on this forum. He came to Hibs, but would much rather have gone to Aberdeen, but time, a bidding war apparently cleverly manipulated by Everton and circumstances threw the dice our way. He was also expecting to play with the "Tornadoes" team, but Cropley, Brownlie, Gordon and Jimmy O'Rourke who still went on to score goals (against us too) were all flogged off, after Harper's arrival so he had some reason to be pissed off at the club too IMO. Turnbull wanted him to team up with Gordon and he did score lots of goals for us, but the fan favourites were very difficult to replace - anyone would have had it tough, I guess.

People complain now about fans booing, but this guy got booed off after scoring 5 goals in one game for us - not by the opposition fans either! With hindsight, Turnbull was probably wrong to break up the team at that time ... thought Harper was decent with us myself ...

That's another urban myth. I think Harper put it into his biography possibly as a joke & its become a fact! I was at the game, late 1974 IIRC, a friendly against Nijmegen & Harper was cheered off the park. mind you it was a paltry crowd, under 5,000 again IIRC.

Kato
17-02-2015, 12:03 PM
That's another urban myth. I think Harper put it into his biography possibly as a joke & its become a fact! I was at the game, late 1974 IIRC, a friendly against Nijmegen & Harper was cheered off the park. mind you it was a paltry crowd, under 5,000 again IIRC.

:agree: Couldn't believe it when Harper put that in his book and obviously the Daily Record was all over it. Seems like it's passed into history as fact. I remember Harper getting a standing ovation when he was subbed, and it was fully deserved.

CropleyWasGod
17-02-2015, 12:51 PM
Alan Gordon was 30 in 1974. If that's 'getting on a bit', there are a lot of players out there who should be on Zimmer frames.

Uwe Seeler was 'getting on a bit', according to David Coleman - a view Coleman expressed just before Seeler scored the late equaliser in the WC quarter-final in 1970. He was 34.

Joe McBride came to us aged 30, top-scored for the club the next 2 seasons, and scored a European hat-trick for us aged 31 against Malmo.

Russell Latapy was 30 when he arrived - seemed to be able to work a shift OK to my eye.

Samuel Eto'o is 35 next month. Ronaldo (the Brazilian) scored his 15th World Cup goal just a couple of months short of 30. Christiano Ronaldo was 30 just 11 days ago.

Harper didn't have personality problems - he was a problem personality who had moved from Greenock to Aberdeen and from Aberdeen to Liverpool and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh leaving trouble in his wake wherever he had been. Turnbull had no excuse for not knowing this, and to bring someone like that into a previously harmonious dressing-room was stupid to say the least.

And having brought him in, he should have managed him a lot more effectively. Harper was trouble, and ET should have known it and acted accordingly.

Don't forget that Harper was also involved in the fight in the Copenhagen "night club" (along with Bremner, Young, McCluskey and Graham) that led to Willie Ormond's sacking as Scotland manager and the appointment of that idiot McLeod. He was just a bad apple.

As for 'meek' - I'm well-aware of how abrasive and forceful he could be with his players, but I take leave to question whether he was able to stand up to the extremely forceful personality of Tom Hart. All I heard at the time suggests he was not.

He was cleared of that.

And Ormond wasn't sacked; he resigned.

Hiber-nation
17-02-2015, 01:02 PM
:agree: Couldn't believe it when Harper put that in his book and obviously the Daily Record was all over it. Seems like it's passed into history as fact. I remember Harper getting a standing ovation when he was subbed, and it was fully deserved.

He did indeed. And let's not forget that 30 yarder against hearts!

The crowd only turned on the fat wee sheidt in his last season when it was clear he wanted to move back to the sheep and was hardly trying a leg.

Kato
17-02-2015, 01:23 PM
And let's not forget that 30 yarder against hearts!

1st ever SPL goal iirc.

schinkenotto
17-02-2015, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the clarifications, sch'tto.

I was relating the (wrong apparently) story I was told back then.

Thanks,snooky!Because my friendship with Alan,it's one of the few stories I get right!

There was a serious falling out,but I'm pleased to say that in their later years,Alan and ET became very close friends and played golf together at Bruntsfield Links.

My wife and I are still in regular touch with Alan's widow,Hazel, and their children.

CropleyWasGod
17-02-2015, 01:32 PM
He did indeed. And let's not forget that 30 yarder against hearts!

.

...and the hat-trick in the LC Final.

PeeJay
17-02-2015, 01:40 PM
That's another urban myth. I think Harper put it into his biography possibly as a joke & its become a fact! I was at the game, late 1974 IIRC, a friendly against Nijmegen & Harper was cheered off the park. mind you it was a paltry crowd, under 5,000 again IIRC.

Think Harper wasn't referring to crowd/fans in general, but as he himself said: "One group who were particularly nasty to me based themselves just under the old main stand and, it did not matter what I did, they would boo and jeer and shout abuse, so much so that I came to hate them with a vengeance" -
I never booed him, but I could well believe that maybe some fans probably did ...

Hiber-nation
17-02-2015, 02:32 PM
...and the hat-trick in the LC Final.

Which was reported as a hat-trick everywhere....except the Hibs official programme who reported it as Harper (2), McNeill o.g.

Always thought that was a bit strange!

CropleyWasGod
17-02-2015, 02:33 PM
Which was reported as a hat-trick everywhere....except the Hibs official programme who reported it as Haper (2), McNeill o.g.

Always thought that was a bit strange!

Really?

Didn't know that. Maybe JH was on a bonus, which TH didn't want to pay :greengrin

Hiber-nation
17-02-2015, 03:16 PM
Really?

Didn't know that. Maybe JH was on a bonus, which TH didn't want to pay :greengrin

Aye very true!

I always thought the programme editor just wasn't a fan of Joe.

superfurryhibby
17-02-2015, 03:32 PM
I love threads that reminisce about the Tornadoes, takes me back to being a laddie and some of my greatest memories of being a Hibee.

Much as ET commands respect as one of the finest ever Hibs players and as a successful manager, a few things cross my mind in relation to Jimmy O'Rourke and related matters. It seems that ET never really enjoyed his managership of Hibs. In his book this comes over. He talks much more fondly of his spell at Aberdeen. Maybe there was too much emotional investment at ER for him?

The dismantling of the Tornadoes was bizarre really. He should have signed a goalie and pushed Stanton back into the centre of defence. Stanton was treated harshly. He could have played out his career as a quality foil to Blackley. Maybe Des Bremner could have filled the gap in centre mid and the team might have gained more overall. Stanton has said many times that he regarded his best position as the centre of the defence.

O'Rourke played for four more years in the top flight and this suggests to me that he still had what it took. To have spent 120,000k on Harper was odd. The squad was thin, outside the preferred starting 11, although we did see the emergence of Bobby Smith, Des Bremner and the signings of Ally McLeod and Iain Munro in the seasons that followed the signing of Harper.

Years ago when I played amateur football I once scored 28 goals from midfield in a season. The following year we signed a striker who scored loads. The thing was that he was a greedy bassa and the whole team suffered as a result. That's how I see Harper. He was lazy, selfish and a bad influence, but he knew how to tuck them away.

Oh for the benefit of hindsight!

TheFamous1875
17-02-2015, 04:13 PM
A lot of talk about depth of squad in here re The Tornadoes. How well would this squad have done at the time, had they all been together?

Herriot.


Brownlie. Black. Blackley. Shaedler.


Edwards. Stanton. Cropley. Duncan.


O'Rourke. Gordon.



SUBS:
McArthur.
Stewart.
Smith.
Bremner.
McLeod.
Harper.
Munro.

superfurryhibby
17-02-2015, 04:23 PM
A lot of talk about depth of squad in here re The Tornadoes. How well would this squad have done at the time, had they all been together?

Herriot.


Brownlie. Black. Blackley. Shaedler.


Edwards. Stanton. Cropley. Duncan.


O'Rourke. Gordon.



SUBS:
McArthur.
Stewart.
Smith.
Bremner.
McLeod.
Harper.
Munro.

Swap Stewart for Black and you have a championship winning side. Alternatively arrange a retrospective hit on Dixie Deans.

Tom Hart RIP
17-02-2015, 04:50 PM
The tornadoes only started 22 games, winning 19 and losing only 2 including first leg of cup winners cup v sporting Lisbon which was easily reversed at ER.
It was only the lack of depth in the squad plus the best ever Celtic team that prevented us winning much more.
In any case it was a privilege to watch them every week.

malcolm-bogie
17-02-2015, 05:01 PM
That's another urban myth. I think Harper put it into his biography possibly as a joke & its become a fact! I was at the game, late 1974 IIRC, a friendly against Nijmegen & Harper was cheered off the park. mind you it was a paltry crowd, under 5,000 again IIRC.

I can remember clearly having words with a guy who was giving Harper abuse at that game and receiving the classic reply, " aye, he's maybe scored 5 goals but what else has he done!" And that is a true story.

Ray-in-ireland
17-02-2015, 06:43 PM
Interesting thread, just some random comments & facts on prior posts.
1. Joe Harper was 100% ET's signing. Just a few years ago I heard ET insisting that JH was the best player he ever managed. Harper's fee was 120k.
2. No Hibs player since JH has equalled his scoring ratio for Hibs.
3. The week after JH's debut ET realised his mistake & restored the Gordon/O'Rourke duo for the cup tie at Perth. Jimmy scored all 3 goals in a 3-1 win.
4. The story about JH going thru pockets of other players actually dates back to his time at Morton but I can't vouch for veracity. I believe it's an urban myth, & AFAIK it never happened at ER.

Hibs paid Everton out a total of 132K, 12k of which was the tax on the transfer fee that Everton insisted on. Tom Hart said at the time that the Everton chairman asked him how he wanted to pay [instalments], to which Tom Hart replied, "ten pence pieces". Tom Hart then said he wrote the cheque out for the full 132,000.

TH wasn't so arrogant 10 months later when he was selling the majestic Alex Cropley to balance the books. :rolleyes:

Kato
17-02-2015, 09:49 PM
Hibs paid Everton out a total of 132K, 12k of which was the tax on the transfer fee that Everton insisted on. Tom Hart said at the time that the Everton chairman asked him how he wanted to pay [instalments], to which Tom Hart replied, "ten pence pieces". Tom Hart then said he wrote the cheque out for the full 132,000.

TH wasn't so arrogant 10 months later when he was selling the majestic Alex Cropley to balance the books. :rolleyes:

There were was a story at the time, in the press too, that TH paid in cash as an FA rule stated cash payments meant a 10% discount.

--------
19-02-2015, 04:53 PM
He was cleared of that.

The ban was lifted. I'm not aware he was formally cleared of all involvement.

And Ormond wasn't sacked; he resigned.

Or jumped before he was pushed.

Or he was pushed.