Bring Back Hanging

[Mikey09]

Sorry. Not read through the whole thread so apologies if it's been mentioned. I would urge anyone interested in the death penalty to watch a film called West of Memphis.... It will really make you think..

[HibsMax]

Sorry. Not read through the whole thread so apologies if it's been mentioned. I would urge anyone interested in the death penalty to watch a film called West of Memphis.... It will really make you think..
I followed the West Memphis Three after seeing the documentary on HBO many years ago. I am an advocate of the death penalty but if that had been applied in that instance, that would have been a travesty. It was a travesty that those three kids were locked up in the first place (not to overlook the real tragedy of the three young boys who died that day in 1993). I would recommend people read about that case anyway because it's interesting. The book I read was Devil's Knot.

What about this (http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/boston-bombing-tsarnaev-sentence/index.html)?

I appreciate that if you're fundamentally against capital punishment that you will be against this sentence but in my efforts to find "worthy" cases, I can't think of a much better, recent case than this. I'm biased because of the locale.

[lucky]

If the death penalty works why do countries still have it ?

[lord bunberry]

I say bring back Phil d rolls

[steakbake]

I followed the West Memphis Three after seeing the documentary on HBO many years ago. I am an advocate of the death penalty but if that had been applied in that instance, that would have been a travesty. It was a travesty that those three kids were locked up in the first place (not to overlook the real tragedy of the three young boys who died that day in 1993). I would recommend people read about that case anyway because it's interesting. The book I read was Devil's Knot.

What about this (http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/boston-bombing-tsarnaev-sentence/index.html)?

I appreciate that if you're fundamentally against capital punishment that you will be against this sentence but in my efforts to find "worthy" cases, I can't think of a much better, recent case than this. I'm biased because of the locale.

Did it prevent the bombing? Where's the deterrent effect so claimed?

I would call it capital revenge, not capital punishment.

[Colr]

Did it prevent the bombing? Where's the deterrent effect so claimed?

I would call it capital revenge, not capital punishment.

Indeed and it brings us, as a society, down to the same level as the killers.

[--------]

I followed the West Memphis Three after seeing the documentary on HBO many years ago. I am an advocate of the death penalty but if that had been applied in that instance, that would have been a travesty. It was a travesty that those three kids were locked up in the first place (not to overlook the real tragedy of the three young boys who died that day in 1993). I would recommend people read about that case anyway because it's interesting. The book I read was Devil's Knot.

What about this (http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/boston-bombing-tsarnaev-sentence/index.html)?

I appreciate that if you're fundamentally against capital punishment that you will be against this sentence but in my efforts to find "worthy" cases, I can't think of a much better, recent case than this. I'm biased because of the locale.


There are always "worthy cases"; if every capital sentence passed in the US were as solid and unassailable as that one, the case for capital punishment would be much stronger. I wouldn't say that that sentence is an unjust one.

More than a wee bit concerned about your geographical bias, though, Max - does this mean your attitude would be different if the bomb had gone off somewhere in New Jersey? (Just kidding. :wink:)

The case against capital punishment rests on the long, long list of questionable verdicts - many of them very questionable indeed - and I don't see that this guy receiving the death sentence justly makes up for the numbers of highly questionable cases in the judicial history of both our countries.

I know this isn't a capital case, but it doesn't exactly give me a sense of confidence in the fairness and justice of the Florida judiciary, for example. And there are a lot more cases similar.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/21/albert-woodfox-angola-three-solitary-confinement-42-years-conviction-overturned

I thought there was an amendment to the US Constitution forbidding cruel and unusual punishment? FORTY-TWO YEARS in solitary?

A legal system that can do that isn't in my opinion, fit to be entrusted with the power to take human life.

[Betty Boop]

I say bring back Phil d rolls

Same gutted he's gone.:boo hoo:

[Just Alf]

I say bring back Phil d rolls


Same gutted he's gone.:boo hoo:

A good example of why "capital" punishment isn't always a good thing :agree:

[lord bunberry]

Same gutted he's gone.:boo hoo:
I did fall out with him on a few occasions, but I always enjoyed reading his posts.

[HibsMax]

Did it prevent the bombing? Where's the deterrent effect so claimed?

I would call it capital revenge, not capital punishment.

Three things I have to say about the deterrent argument:
1. The death penalty is not a deterrent for a martyr. That much should be obvious. For example, I doubt the threat of being put to death ever crosses the mind of a suicide bomber. Now Tsarnaev wasn't a suicide bomber but death didn't scare him, not in the same way as it scares normal people. By normal people I mean people who don't believe in a God that, in their minds, rewards you for killing others.
2. No punishment is a deterrent to people who simply do not believe they will get caught in the first place. Sociopaths for example.
3. Lastly, it's really difficult to quantify how much of a deterrent the death penalty is. On one side of the argument you have people saying that since there are still murderers out there, the death penalty is clearly not a deterrent. I would counter that with how do you know the murder rate wouldn't be higher if not for the death penalty? I would say that it deters some people but not others. By the way, I'm talking about cold-blooded, premeditated murder. I'm not talking about bar fights gone wrong, crimes of passion, manslaughter, etc.

[HibsMax]

Indeed and it brings us, as a society, down to the same level as the killers.
I'm not singling out you because I've heard many people make the same remark.

I find it astounding that people hold that belief. The former warden of the SuperMax prison in Colorado said that being incarcerated there is worse than death. Locked up for 23 hours a day with very little human contact. If you think that sentencing someone to death makes society bad, what do you think about a fate worse than death? Why do you care so much about this person's life when in reality you don't really give a damn about his life?

[HibsMax]

There are always "worthy cases"; if every capital sentence passed in the US were as solid and unassailable as that one, the case for capital punishment would be much stronger. I wouldn't say that that sentence is an unjust one.

More than a wee bit concerned about your geographical bias, though, Max - does this mean your attitude would be different if the bomb had gone off somewhere in New Jersey? (Just kidding. :wink:)

The case against capital punishment rests on the long, long list of questionable verdicts - many of them very questionable indeed - and I don't see that this guy receiving the death sentence justly makes up for the numbers of highly questionable cases in the judicial history of both our countries.

I know this isn't a capital case, but it doesn't exactly give me a sense of confidence in the fairness and justice of the Florida judiciary, for example. And there are a lot more cases similar.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/21/albert-woodfox-angola-three-solitary-confinement-42-years-conviction-overturned


I thought there was an amendment to the US Constitution forbidding cruel and unusual punishment? FORTY-TWO YEARS in solitary?

A legal system that can do that isn't in my opinion, fit to be entrusted with the power to take human life.

No geographical bias, Doddie. My stance on the death penalty is where it was when I still lived in the UK. And now that I do live in the US, I live in one of the most liberal areas. It's not like Florida or Texas where public opinion on the death penalty is a little different.

I do understand your concerns and we've talked about those before. The reason I brought up this particular case is because it's exactly the sort of case where I think the death penalty is justified. All the previous miscarriages of justice are still tragic but I feel that has way more to do with the people involved than the system itself. Corruption exists everywhere.

[--------]

No geographical bias, Doddie. My stance on the death penalty is where it was when I still lived in the UK. And now that I do live in the US, I live in one of the most liberal areas. It's not like Florida or Texas where public opinion on the death penalty is a little different.

I do understand your concerns and we've talked about those before. The reason I brought up this particular case is because it's exactly the sort of case where I think the death penalty is justified. All the previous miscarriages of justice are still tragic but I feel that has way more to do with the people involved than the system itself. Corruption exists everywhere.


Interesting story for anyone who assumes that the 'United States' as a whole operates the death penalty. I have to say I'm a little surprised at the state concerned - if I let my ignorance and prejudice lead me I'd have assumed Nebraska would still have been operating on lynch law. But I would be wrong.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32910693


As for the case you mentioned, I entirely agree. There are cases where death is the only appropriate just punishment, and someone who deliberately places a pressure-cooker bomb behind a group of children watching a race and enjoying the sunshine isn't someone who adds a positive input to the world around him.

Equally I would have had no complaint if (for example) Harold Shipman, Ian Brady, Moira Hindley, Ian Huntley, or Fred and Rosemary West had been hanged. There's no doubt of their guilt and what they each did was in its own way entirely horrible and evil. I once saw one of the police officers who investigated the Moors Murders recounting how they found photographs and tape recordings of Brady torturing and raping the children, and how the police had to crop those photographs somehow to conceal what was happening but still have the children's parents identify them - impossible, he said - and how the fact that Brady and Hindley refused to admit guilt (which meant a long and detailed trial) meant that the tapes of wee boys screaming and crying for their mothers had to be played to the jury. Family members had to identify the voices as well. I'd have hanged the pair of them just for forcing that on the families and jury. Shipman killed more than 200 of his patients - possibly an awful lot more - by abusing the trust they had placed in him as their family doctor.

But I've always been unconvinced about how far we can divorce the 'system' from the people operating it. It can be anyone from a junior police officer or crime scene tech messing up the evidence to a senior police officer stitching up a suspect to get the media off his back to a High Court judge (or a Supreme Court Justice?) letting his prejudices loose on an accused and summing up in a way that ensures a guilty verdict from a misdirected jury.

But if the victim were someone I loved murdered by a Brady or a Shipman, I'd probably have a different view on the matter. Actually, I know I would.

[Mikey09]

Just heard that death row inmate Richard Glossip has been given a stay of execution 3 HOURS BEFORE HE WAS DUE TO BE EXECUTED! Now if that doesn't **** Glossip's head up I don't know what would. If someone could put a link on here to his story I'm sure people would find it a very interesting case.

[Off the bar]

Just heard that death row inmate Richard Glossip has been given a stay of execution 3 HOURS BEFORE HE WAS DUE TO BE EXECUTED! Now if that doesn't **** Glossip's head up I don't know what would. If someone could put a link on here to his story I'm sure people would find it a very interesting case.

There you go;

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/16/oklahoma-richard-glossip-execution-wednesday-protocol

[Sir David Gray]

Just heard that death row inmate Richard Glossip has been given a stay of execution 3 HOURS BEFORE HE WAS DUE TO BE EXECUTED! Now if that doesn't **** Glossip's head up I don't know what would. If someone could put a link on here to his story I'm sure people would find it a very interesting case.

That's part of the reason why I don't agree with capital punishment.

It can't be right that someone is prepped for execution and comes within hours of being put to death and then all of a sudden he's told that there's been a stay of execution. Just to go through the same process a few months down the line.

Don't get me wrong there's some people who have been executed, who I have no sympathy for but giving people several execution dates and keeping them on death row for 20-30 years is inhumane in my opinion.

[Mikey09]

There you go;

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/16/oklahoma-richard-glossip-execution-wednesday-protocol


Link doesn't work for me hoxton.

sorry. It does! Ha!

[Scouse Hibee]

That's part of the reason why I don't agree with capital punishment.

It can't be right that someone is prepped for execution and comes within hours of being put to death and then all of a sudden he's told that there's been a stay of execution. Just to go through the same process a few months down the line.

Don't get me wrong there's some people who have been executed, who I have no sympathy for but giving people several execution dates and keeping them on death row for 20-30 years is inhumane in my opinion.

I have no problem with it, let them suffer a similar feeling of anguish,despair and any other suffering that they have bestowed on others due to their crime.

[Sir David Gray]

I have no problem with it, let them suffer a similar feeling of anguish,despair and any other suffering that they have bestowed on others due to their crime.

I do get that argument, however I just can't get over the thought that even just one innocent person might be put to death. That, for me, is the number one reason why I'll never support capital punishment.

Even if 999,999 out of 1 million condemned people were guilty, that one innocent person would be one too many in my book.

However I also don't agree with keeping people on death row for several decades either, even if there's no doubt surrounding their guilt.

My stance on this subject actually even surprises myself since I'm quite conservative/right wing on many other issues but there's too many problems surrounding capital punishment and it's not something I want to see reintroduced in the UK.

I do want to see tougher prison sentences for serious and violent offenders though.

[HibsMax]

I watched a show about something similar to this. A man who was on death row and had his sentence reduced to life imprisonment hours before he was due to fry. Apparently that really screwed him up as he had come to terms with dying and was prepared for it. After his sentence was reduced he then had to get used to the idea of spending the remainder of his life behind bars. That's a double whammy right there.

[Scouse Hibee]

I watched a show about something similar to this. A man who was on death row and had his sentence reduced to life imprisonment hours before he was due to fry. Apparently that really screwed him up as he had come to terms with dying and was prepared for it. After his sentence was reduced he then had to get used to the idea of spending the remainder of his life behind bars. That's a double whammy right there.

That will teach him.

[Sir David Gray]

Sometimes the death penalty's the only option, it's a pity that Connecticut abolished it before these two could face justice.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3240162/Bound-pole-brutally-bludgeoned-bat-hearing-wife-raped-Connecticut-doctor-survived-home-invasion-triple-murder-family-reveals-new-details-horrific-tragedy-book.html

I have no idea how that man even begun to come to terms with what happened to him and his family.