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Mikey
04-02-2015, 12:28 PM
At last, something from the HSL side........


Former Hibs star Jackie McNamara today revealed he’d felt “insulted” at his integrity being questioned after being accused of being part of a “Ponzi scheme” as he threw his weight behind a move towards fan ownership at Easter Road.

The Capital outfit’s share issue to supporters – offering them the opportunity to own up to 51 per cent of the club – went live on Monday with the promise that all money spent, potentially up to £2.5 million, will help the club’s football ambition rather than benefit any existing shareholders.

The offer to be part of a collective ownership through Hibernian Supporters Limited, a company limited by guarantee and with the sole objective of buying and holding shares in the club, has been attacked by some fans.

Shareholders attending last week’s annual general meeting were met with placards claiming HSL was nothing more than a ‘Ponzi scheme’ – in other words an investment fraud – and that the move was a “shakedown” aimed at pouring cash into the pockets of club owner Sir Tom Farmer.

However, McNamara, one of seven directors of HSL chaired by MSP and former Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill, firmly believes the Hibs support should unite behind the move having been an advocate for change at Easter Road. McNamara did attend an angry protest outside the ground following last season’s relegation but, he insisted, that while those running the club had to be called to account, he didn’t feel that was the right way to go about it.

He said: “I can understand it because of the feeling of the supporters. The way the team was playing football, it was just “lump it” football. It was embarrassing and I can understand their anger but I wasn’t happy being there.

“I’d been asked for five minutes of my time, I didn’t know anything about it. Someone said I hadn’t said much on the day but I didn’t have any speech prepared. I just said there has to be change, the people at the top keep employing managers and having to pay them, their assistants and backroom staff off.

“So they are culpable, they are responsible for the money going out the door. How many managers have there been? Eleven or twelve? It’s not right and there has to be change.

“However, that [the agm protest] wasn’t the right way to go about things, I don’t think you get anywhere with that.”

One complaint about the fan ownership move is that supporters already contribute through season tickets, buying club merchandise and so on and are now being asked to dip their hands in their pockets once again, a point McNamara is well aware of.

However, he said: “They are being asked to invest again but this is the only way we will get change if we are serious about it. It’s a start, it’s getting a foothold, getting into the club which has been going for 140 years – let’s just hope it goes on for another 140.”

Among the most vociferous opponents to the scheme has been Paul Kane, chairman of the 160-strong Former Players’ Association, a body of which McNamara is a member. However, he claimed, no formal vote has ever been taken on the proposal.

He said: “I was at a meeting just last week although it’s only the hard core of us who go every month. I was getting asked questions like ‘where’s the money going? what’s happening?’, but I can categorically state we have never had a vote. There’s been nothing about it in the emails we get about HSL and asking what we think about it.”

Under the HSL umbrella, fans can invest £225 or £18.75 a month and, while they won’t get a share certificate they will receive a membership certificate and have one vote on issues affecting HSL including the make-up of its board.

And, when HSL obtains 20 per cent of the club’s shares, it will be entitled to have a representative on the football club’s board which is already set to increase in numbers with two supporters, Frank Dougan and Amit Moudgil, having been voted on in a non-executive basis.

McNamara insisted the scheme is totally transparent unlike the current situation at Ibrox where various factions are fighting for control and that, he revealed, had left him annoyed at the accusation it’s a Ponzi scheme.

He said: “I found that a wee bit insulting but I’ve been called many things about my religion, my politics. It doesn’t bother me. It’s water off a duck’s back but I don’t like my integrity being questioned.

“Hopefully, this is the start of something good for the club. Give up six pints of lager a month and help the club.”

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/jackie-mcnamara-angered-by-ponzi-scheme-claims-1-3679124

Beefster
04-02-2015, 12:32 PM
I need to find out where he's drinking if he can get 6 pints for £18.75. Sensible chap.

greenginger
04-02-2015, 12:39 PM
Glad Jackie has changed his tune. A few months ago it was " the club was being robbed."

That is water under the bridge now, I hope a few more join him and accept the share scheme is going to be the way forward and further protest won't stop it, only hurt the club , and cause disputes amongst our supporters.

jacomo
04-02-2015, 12:41 PM
At last, something from the HSL side........



http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/jackie-mcnamara-angered-by-ponzi-scheme-claims-1-3679124

Brilliant - the day after the RSS feeds get switched off, and a link to an article on the Scotsman website that is rather more supportive of the club.

Are they scrambling to get back in Hibs.net good books Mikey? :wink:

As for what Jackie Mac says, there's no problem with attending the summer protest and now supporting HSL. As has been said a million times - we demanded changes, and we have got them. Why it took Hibs so long to realise what had gone wrong is a good question, but we're definitely heading in the right direction again.

Peevemor
04-02-2015, 12:42 PM
Brilliant - the day after the RSS feeds get switched off, and a link to an article on the Scotsman website that is rather more supportive of the club.

Are they scrambling to get back in Hibs.net good books Mikey? :wink:

As for what Jackie Mac says, there's no problem with attending the summer protest and now supporting HSL. As has been said a million times - we demanded changes, and we have got them. Why it took Hibs so long to realise what had gone wrong is a good question, but we're definitely heading in the right direction again.

:agree:

Hiber-nation
04-02-2015, 01:02 PM
In true EEN style it's stuck at the side of the page with the usual non-interview with a player taking up most of the space.

greenginger
04-02-2015, 01:32 PM
It sounds as though Paul Kane is using his position as the head of the Former Player's Association in the same way that Mike Riley is using his position as Chairman of the HSA and Glenn Ross is using his position as Chairman of the Shareholders Association.

They're happy to speak out but they don't speak for their members.


Is Glen Ross saying he was chairman of the now liquidated Edinburgh Hibernian PLC. Shareholders Association ?

That's news to me.

HibbyRod
04-02-2015, 02:05 PM
It sounds as though Paul Kane is using his position as the head of the Former Player's Association in the same way that Mike Riley is using his position as Chairman of the HSA and Glenn Ross is using his position as Chairman of the Shareholders Association.

They're happy to speak out but they don't speak for their members.

Hi Ged, any idea as to when he became Chairman of the Hibernian Shareholders Association?

marinello59
04-02-2015, 02:08 PM
Great to see HSL fighting back against the Ponzi slurs, even better to hear it from Jackie Mac.

Corstorphine Hibby
04-02-2015, 02:29 PM
I need to find out where he's drinking if he can get 6 pints for £18.75. Sensible chap.
It's £2.95 for a pint of lager in Robbies on Leith Walk. It's a short walk to Greggs from there too so I reckon you could get 6 pints and a sausage roll for £18.75.
Sorted.

southsider
04-02-2015, 02:32 PM
I like Jackie, can't see anything to dislike about this. We had bank loans of about £6 1/2 million plus another £3 million to the holding company. This has been turned into a net interest free loan of £5 mill payable over 10 years. Pretty good deal in my book and I am going to buy 25,000 shares.

Mikey
04-02-2015, 02:44 PM
Regardless of titles, does the Shareholders Association actually exist? I've had shares for years and know nothing about it.

And if it doesn't maybe it's time it did seeing as we're going to have even more shareholders shortly.

Ozyhibby
04-02-2015, 02:46 PM
Think that Paul Kane needs to make it clear he is only speaking for himself and not the former players.

greenginger
04-02-2015, 02:55 PM
Regardless of titles, does the Shareholders Association actually exist? I've had shares for years and know nothing about it.

And if it doesn't maybe it's time it did seeing as we're going to have even more shareholders shortly.


I don't think anything has been written in the name of any Association of shareholders at Hibs since the STF new deal.

Less than 1% of the club did not have a lot of influence. However with new shareholders and existing ones topping up their holdings some kind of association would be a good thing, if only as another voice than HSL.

Better get in quick before Glenn Ross claims he is life president. :greengrin

Eaststand
04-02-2015, 03:23 PM
Regardless of titles, does the Shareholders Association actually exist? I've had shares for years and know nothing about it.

And if it doesn't maybe it's time it did seeing as we're going to have even more shareholders shortly.

Im also a shareholder from the duff/gray era and know nowt about any shareholders association. So if your proposal is to resurect or start another association to unite proper Hibs minded shareholding supporters i'll second that brother Mikey and propose you as Chairperson ☺

GGTTH

hibbybob
04-02-2015, 03:28 PM
Regardless of titles, does the Shareholders Association actually exist? I've had shares for years and know nothing about it.

And if it doesn't maybe it's time it did seeing as we're going to have even more shareholders shortly.

It certainly existed as I attended a few meetings.

There was also an annual presentation made for - Services To Hibernian - or something like that.
If I recall correctly STF was one of the first recipients.

I recall Glen from either these meetings or perhaps the AGM as he was fairly vocal and had a voice that droned on and on and on!

it was a young guy with blonde hair that ran the Shareholders Association - i recall him being interviewed outside ER when the Mercer thing kicked off. As far as I know, Glen wasn't involved with the running of it.

I hope that HSL takes over this sort of thing as it was good to feel involved in the Shareholders Association and it would be even better if HSL had a decent % of shares.

Mikey
04-02-2015, 03:31 PM
Im also a shareholder from the duff/gray era and know nowt about any shareholders association. So if your proposal is to resurect or start another association to unite proper Hibs minded shareholding supporters i'll second that brother Mikey and propose you as Chairperson ☺

GGTTH

I think you'll find that my proposal is for someone else to get it up and running again :greengrin

Eaststand
04-02-2015, 03:46 PM
I think you'll find that my proposal is for someone else to get it up and running again :greengrin

Ah well, it was just a thought, so hopefully somebody will step forward (maybe one of the unsuccesfull board candidates ? ) cos it would be good to have a voice of reason who's well in touch with the majority of our shareholders instead of some 'unknown' who takes it on themselves to speak on our behalf with no obvious mandate to do that

GGTTH

blackpoolhibs
04-02-2015, 03:55 PM
Think that Paul Kane needs to make it clear he is only speaking for himself and not the former players.

That cant be right, he's actually speaking for 50% of the support in his eyes. Perhaps he'd been sampling more of his own ales when he made that absurd assumption?

Him and the others who have a clear agenda to disrupt everything need to understand this is the way we are going, you are either with us or against us.

There is no middle ground now.

fatbloke
04-02-2015, 07:47 PM
The Capital outfit’s share issue to supporters – offering them the opportunity to own up to 51 per cent of the club – went live on Monday with the promise that all money spent, potentially up to £2.5 million, will help the club’s football ambition rather than benefit any existing shareholders.

The offer to be part of a collective ownership through Hibernian Supporters Limited, a company limited by guarantee and with the sole objective of buying and holding shares in the club, has been attacked by some fans.

The bit above insults many small shareholders myself included. In 1989/90 I bought 1000 shares in Hibernian that cost me £550. I never wanted a return on my investment, I bought the shares to save the club that I had watched man and boy for 30 years and the club that I loved and still love. The thought that any future cash raised would help me I find disrespectful, nonsensical and insulting.

My prize possession is my share certificate in Hibernian which is mine and will never be taken from me.

So please if you do not want to be part of the new Hibernian please walk away and leave it to those who do. Moan over

Bostonhibby
04-02-2015, 07:56 PM
Regardless of titles, does the Shareholders Association actually exist? I've had shares for years and know nothing about it.

And if it doesn't maybe it's time it did seeing as we're going to have even more shareholders shortly.

Similar thread on PM board - cant find a shareholder who is aware of any activity in the last decade or so, even scarcer is a shareholder who has been asked who they want to have speaking for them:confused:

Sounds like a good wheez though, has a grand sounding title and its not as if the Hootsmon or EEN will bother checking out the background. Anyone fancy annointing themselves spokesman for the Association of Hibernian Shareholders (1991)?

BSEJVT
04-02-2015, 08:01 PM
Thread hijack a bit

I have shares in Hibs as do my now adult children.

I remember buying theirs but cannot remember buying mine, but there are lots of things I don't remember now.

What I do remember is my old man paying a few hundred quid for our names on a plaque in the FF stand.

Does that sound about right?

I have a vague recollection that he might have asked me about buying shares at the time of the Duff & Gray share issue and I told him it didn't look right, this in my pre IFA and pre all the new fangled rules that now exist days I hasten to add :-)

I think the HSA predated all the Duff & Gray malarkey and STF taking over, I think the old shares were cancelled and replaced out of goodwill by diluted holdings by STF

Its probable I think that the HSA disbanded as an active organisation at that time as their shareholdings were now of a token value only and carried no weight or influence.

That was admittedly in the days where people actually felt they needed an elected mandate to purport to speak for a group, rather than having a incidental relationship with them.

Eaststand
04-02-2015, 08:10 PM
Similar thread on PM board - cant find a shareholder who is aware of any activity in the last decade or so, even scarcer is a shareholder who has been asked who they want to have speaking for them:confused:

Sounds like a good wheez though, has a grand sounding title and its not as if the Hootsmon or EEN will bother checking out the background. Anyone fancy annointing themselves spokesman for the Association of Hibernian Shareholders (1991)?

Does anybody know who this Glen Ross 'spokesperson' is ?
I've been going to Easter Road for over 50 years and Ive heard of Glen Michael, Glen Coe, and even Diana Ross but I've never heard of this guy

C'mon Glen, if you're reading this forum, you made what was advertised as a shareholders statement and therefore spoke on my behalf. I'd love to hear why you think you were qualified to do that, so let's be hearing from you
GGTTH

hibs0666
04-02-2015, 08:52 PM
He was a mate of Pia's as I recall. Think he owns an art gallery, but might be a post office.

Jonnyboy
04-02-2015, 09:59 PM
Thread hijack a bit

I have shares in Hibs as do my now adult children.

I remember buying theirs but cannot remember buying mine, but there are lots of things I don't remember now.

What I do remember is my old man paying a few hundred quid for our names on a plaque in the FF stand.

Does that sound about right?

I have a vague recollection that he might have asked me about buying shares at the time of the Duff & Gray share issue and I told him it didn't look right, this in my pre IFA and pre all the new fangled rules that now exist days I hasten to add :-)

I think the HSA predated all the Duff & Gray malarkey and STF taking over, I think the old shares were cancelled and replaced out of goodwill by diluted holdings by STF

Its probable I think that the HSA disbanded as an active organisation at that time as their shareholdings were now of a token value only and carried no weight or influence.

That was admittedly in the days where people actually felt they needed an elected mandate to purport to speak for a group, rather than having a incidental relationship with them.

Hibs had the 100 club by which fans could pay £100 and have their names displayed on a board in the FF. Mine is there :greengrin


He was a mate of Pia's as I recall. Think he owns an art gallery, but might be a post office.

:agree:

BSEJVT
04-02-2015, 10:33 PM
Hibs had the 100 club by which fans could pay £100 and have their names displayed on a board in the FF. Mine is there :greengrin



:agree:

Thanks Jonnyboy

Any sign if book 3 being published?

fatbloke
05-02-2015, 01:49 AM
[QUOTE=Jonnyboy;4294314]Hibs had the 100 club by which fans could pay £100 and have their names displayed on a board in the FF. Mine is there :greengrin

Hi Jonnyboy how's tricks? Is the bus still going well? I paid £200 and somehow it got missed should have said something at the time but ach what the heck mistakes happen.

db03
05-02-2015, 07:53 AM
slightly off the Jackie McNamara topic here.
if £2.5 million gives 51% of the shares in the club, does that mean they value the club at roughly £5 million?

lapsedhibee
05-02-2015, 07:57 AM
I've been going to Easter Road for over 50 years and Ive heard of Glen Michael, Glen Coe, and even Diana Ross but I've never heard of this guy

Runs an art gallery. In Glengarry.

Caversham Green
05-02-2015, 08:33 AM
slightly off the Jackie McNamara topic here.
if £2.5 million gives 51% of the shares in the club, does that mean they value the club at roughly £5 million?

For the purposes of and prior to this share issue the club is being valued at £2.5m.

The logic behind that is that the number of new shares on offer for £2.5m is equal to the total number of shares already in existence. If the new issue is fully subscribed the newly expanded club will have twice as many shares as it does now and will in theory have an extra £2.5m in the bank.

Caversham Green
05-02-2015, 08:35 AM
Does anybody know who this Glen Ross 'spokesperson' is ?
I've been going to Easter Road for over 50 years and Ive heard of Glen Michael, Glen Coe, and even Diana Ross but I've never heard of this guy

C'mon Glen, if you're reading this forum, you made what was advertised as a shareholders statement and therefore spoke on my behalf. I'd love to hear why you think you were qualified to do that, so let's be hearing from you
GGTTH

If any existing or prospective shareholders want to join they should contact him for a copy of the constitution and a membership application form.

db03
05-02-2015, 09:13 AM
For the purposes of and prior to this share issue the club is being valued at £2.5m.

The logic behind that is that the number of new shares on offer for £2.5m is equal to the total number of shares already in existence. If the new issue is fully subscribed the newly expanded club will have twice as many shares as it does now and will in theory have an extra £2.5m in the bank.

cheers mate

greenginger
05-02-2015, 09:27 AM
If any existing or prospective shareholders want to join they should contact him for a copy of the constitution and a membership application form.


I really think a share holder's association in the name of company SC005323 , Hibernian Football Club Ltd , rather than in the liquidated Highmaze Ltd , would be more appropriate.

Caversham Green
05-02-2015, 09:42 AM
I really think a share holder's association in the name of company SC005323 , Hibernian Football Club Ltd , rather than in the liquidated Highmaze Ltd , would be more appropriate.

The shareholders' association appears to be separate from the club, but few of the several thousand existing and prospective shareholders (of the club) seem to know anything about it. I think they should find out about it by contacting the one known officer - Glen Ross. He's been advertising the association in The Scotsman.

greenginger
05-02-2015, 09:57 AM
The shareholders' association appears to be separate from the club, but few of the several thousand existing and prospective shareholders (of the club) seem to know anything about it. I think they should find out about it by contacting the one known officer - Glen Ross. He's been advertising the association in The Scotsman.


But I swore never to buy another Scotsman ! :greengrin I'll steal one.

Islington Hibs
05-02-2015, 04:43 PM
It certainly existed as I attended a few meetings.

There was also an annual presentation made for - Services To Hibernian - or something like that.
If I recall correctly STF was one of the first recipients.

I recall Glen from either these meetings or perhaps the AGM as he was fairly vocal and had a voice that droned on and on and on!

it was a young guy with blonde hair that ran the Shareholders Association - i recall him being interviewed outside ER when the Mercer thing kicked off. As far as I know, Glen wasn't involved with the running of it.

I hope that HSL takes over this sort of thing as it was good to feel involved in the Shareholders Association and it would be even better if HSL had a decent % of shares.

I was that young guy with blonde hair! I am not so young now......

Yes I with a few others founded the shareholders association just prior top the Mercer takeover as it was clear Hibs were in serious financial trouble. Duff and Gray were supportive of us and although I thought (and still do) that they were well intentioned they were clearly out of their depth. The key people, in SA, were Rod Cranston, Brian Monteith (who subsequently became an MSP), Ramsay Dalgetty QC who left the UK to go to Tonga of all places and Glenn Ross was involved too. Glenn is an art dealer. There were others too. With the exception of Brian I have lost touch with the others.

We held fairly regular meetings - I would guess 50/60 usually turned up, an annual dinner and award . We presented a crystal trophy to the club and as HibbyRob says 'for Services to Hibernian' and we were pretty active with good shareholder interest. We continued under the Crombe/ O'Malley years and found both these characters to be good straightforward honourable people.

I moved down to London in 1997 and thus could no longer commit much time to it and as others have indicated when STF took over there seemed little point as the shareholders were diluted down to virtually no influence. Indeed there would have been no shares if STF had not effectively gifted them to existing shareholders. To my almost certain knowledge it has been inactive for at least 15 years.

The Association was properly constituted, indeed I almost certainly still have a copy of the constitution somewhere. It would be a great idea to re-constitute it when the new issue is over, although it would have to be for others to do. If there is demand to do it I would be happy to dig out the paper work, old membership lists and the constitution which could be used as a basis?

What I would say is that the problems the club face are totally different to 1991 - then it was financial an dour very existence, now it is getting back to the SPL and being consistently in the top 3 or 4. That is not to say a reconstituted Shareholders Association would not be a good idea.

Bostonhibby
05-02-2015, 06:14 PM
I was that young guy with blonde hair! I am not so young now......

Yes I with a few others founded the shareholders association just prior top the Mercer takeover as it was clear Hibs were in serious financial trouble. Duff and Gray were supportive of us and although I thought (and still do) that they were well intentioned they were clearly out of their depth. The key people, in SA, were Rod Cranston, Brian Monteith (who subsequently became an MSP), Ramsay Dalgetty QC who left the UK to go to Tonga of all places and Glenn Ross was involved too. Glenn is an art dealer. There were others too. With the exception of Brian I have lost touch with the others.

We held fairly regular meetings - I would guess 50/60 usually turned up, an annual dinner and award . We presented a crystal trophy to the club and as HibbyRob says 'for Services to Hibernian' and we were pretty active with good shareholder interest. We continued under the Crombe/ O'Malley years and found both these characters to be good straightforward honourable people.

I moved down to London in 1997 and thus could no longer commit much time to it and as others have indicated when STF took over there seemed little point as the shareholders were diluted down to virtually no influence. Indeed there would have been no shares if STF had not effectively gifted them to existing shareholders. To my almost certain knowledge it has been inactive for at least 15 years.

The Association was properly constituted, indeed I almost certainly still have a copy of the constitution somewhere. It would be a great idea to re-constitute it when the new issue is over, although it would have to be for others to do. If there is demand to do it I would be happy to dig out the paper work, old membership lists and the constitution which could be used as a basis?

What I would say is that the problems the club face are totally different to 1991 - then it was financial an dour very existence, now it is getting back to the SPL and being consistently in the top 3 or 4. That is not to say a reconstituted Shareholders Association would not be a good idea.

:thumbsup: Great stuff, and thanks for putting the current situation in context whilst also recording an important time in our history.