The Share Issue and IFA's

[Geo_1875]

Has anybody found an IFA in Edinburgh willing to undertake a suitability assessment for investment in the share issue. I've spoken to a couple who indicated that they couldn't consider doing the work for anyone investing less than £10,000 at a cost of between 3-5%. Seems harsh that small individual investors are being disadvantaged in this way.

[marinello59]

Wow, that does seem expensive. I've actually moved from buying shares as an individual to throwing my lot in with HSL. For me there's a real strength in sticking together with my fellow fans and nobody outside of Hibs will be getting the benefit of my dosh.

[MB62]

Could somebody explain please what an IFA is and what the ins & outs of it are. A few fans I know were going to buy shares as individuals but have been scared off by this IFA thing and are now not going to bother 'investing' at all.

[emerald green]

Could somebody explain please what an IFA is and what the ins & outs of it are. A few fans I know were going to buy shares as individuals but have been scared off by this IFA thing and are now not going to bother 'investing' at all.

An IFA is an independent financial adviser, whose job it is to give you best advice on any financial transactions you might be considering making. Not just in buying shares. It could be a wide range of things. They will normally charge a fee for their services. That's it in a nutshell, but I'll leave it to others who know more about the subject than me to go into greater detail.

It's not my shout obviously, but if these fans were going to buy shares in the club, why not invest through HSL rather than not invest at all? This is NOT financial advice! Just an observation from me. :greengrin

[PatHead]

Could somebody explain please what an IFA is and what the ins & outs of it are. A few fans I know were going to buy shares as individuals but have been scared off by this IFA thing and are now not going to bother 'investing' at all.

An IFA is an Independent Financial Adviser who is qualified to give investment advice. In order for them to give the advice they must confirm they have undertaken an assessment .....and deems them suitable to invest in non-realisable securities of this type.

That would take them some time and they would face a liability if the advice was not suitable. In every investment transaction there has to be a file with an audit trail which can be checked. I really wish there was a shortcut but afraid it is the rules.

It is a joke for what is an emotional investment but the rules are there to protect the normal guy in the street for investing in the next great thing which is too good to be true.

I am an IFA but having stood for the board do not believe I could be seen to give impartial advice.

[MB62]

It's not my shout obviously, but if these fans were going to buy shares in the club, why not invest through HSL rather than not invest at all? This is NOT financial advice! Just an observation from me. :greengrin

Like myself, they have too many doubts on the HSL scheme, not saying there's anything wrong with it, but basically don't want to contribute money to a group who can basically use your shares to voice an opinion that might not necessarily be yours, if you're an individual shareholder, that won't happen.


An IFA is an Independent Financial Adviser who is qualified to give investment advice. In order for them to give the advice they must confirm they have undertaken an assessment .....and deems them suitable to invest in non-realisable securities of this type.

That would take them some time and they would face a liability if the advice was not suitable. In every investment transaction there has to be a file with an audit trail which can be checked. I really wish there was a shortcut but afraid it is the rules.

It is a joke for what is an emotional investment but the rules are there to protect the normal guy in the street for investing in the next great thing which is too good to be true.

I am an IFA but having stood for the board do not believe I could be seen to give impartial advice.

So do you have to actually go through an IFA then? in reality, we all know it's not an investment but a donation in return for a shares certificate. Can we not just apply to the club to buy shares and forget about any financial advice?


BTW, thanks to you both for the info provided already.

[DaveF]

Like myself, they have too many doubts on the HSL scheme, not saying there's anything wrong with it, but basically don't want to contribute money to a group who can basically use your shares to voice an opinion that might not necessarily be yours, if you're an individual shareholder, that won't happen

How big is your individual voice going to be as a single shareholder? I know you'll have a voice, but it won't make any difference (except for that certificate on your wall :greengrin)

You say there isn't anything wrong with HSL but you have doubts. Bit of a contradiction going on, no? I'm not trying to be nippy BTW, just genuinely concerned as you seem to have a willingness to contribute but have a greater willingness not to!

[Weststandwanab]

Has anybody found an IFA in Edinburgh willing to undertake a suitability assessment for investment in the share issue. I've spoken to a couple who indicated that they couldn't consider doing the work for anyone investing less than £10,000 at a cost of between 3-5%. Seems harsh that small individual investors are being disadvantaged in this way.

I have, and I know he has done it for at least one other individual.

Do not ask for details as the Admins will remove the post – you would need to ask them why !



Wow, that does seem expensive. I've actually moved from buying shares as an individual to throwing my lot in with HSL. For me there's a real strength in sticking together with my fellow fans and nobody outside of Hibs will be getting the benefit of my dosh.

That in my opinion is why they are hoping you do and they have come out with this nonsense to put people off.


Like myself, they have too many doubts on the HSL scheme, not saying there's anything wrong with it, but basically don't want to contribute money to a group who can basically use your shares to voice an opinion that might not necessarily be yours, if you're an individual shareholder, that won't happen.


So do you have to actually go through an IFA then? in reality, we all know it's not an investment but a donation in return for a shares certificate. Can we not just apply to the club to buy shares and forget about any financial advice?


BTW, thanks to you both for the info provided already.

This is a fair point but when you are a member of H.S.L. limited you will be a minor cog and never see the big wheel of the A.G.M. whereas as a shareholder in your own right you will.Further when I am not here any shares I have personally will be left to my family whereas my membership to HSL Limited will not.

I do not expect to have any influence at a A.G.M. as an individual but then neither do I expect H.S.L. limited will either.

You do not have to go through an I.F.A. if you sign a waiver but the Club will not offer that option.

[Mikey]

Do not ask for details as the Admins will remove the post – you would need to ask them why !

Erm........ you sure?

I'd like to know why too :greengrin

[Weststandwanab]

Erm........ you sure?

I'd like to know why too :greengrin

Well I think they would as it may be seen as advertising and it may be construed that I was on some sort of “Commission”.

Sorry fee !

[marinello59]

That in my opinion is why they are hoping you do and they have come out with this nonsense to put people off.



It's not put me off of anything. I'll be taking part through HSL for the same reasons that I took up Union membership in the past. I'll have a democratic say in how a large single fans voice is exercised rather than having next to no say in anything as a very minor shareholder. HSL is basically a co-operative for the fans, that ticks all the boxes for me. I can see the attraction for having an actual share certificate and being able to attend the AGM in person but that stuff doesn't bother me, being part of something that hopefully moves us forward will do for me.

[Geo_1875]

It's not put me off of anything. I'll be taking part through HSL for the same reasons that I took up Union membership in the past. I'll have a democratic say in how a large single fans voice is exercised rather than having next to no say in anything as a very minor shareholder. HSL is basically a co-operative for the fans, that ticks all the boxes for me. I can see the attraction for having an actual share certificate and being able to attend the AGM in person but that stuff doesn't bother me, being part of something that hopefully moves us forward will do for me.

I will be contributing to HSL as I see the benefits of having a fans body with a substantial shareholding in the club. However, like many, I think it will hold sentimental value to have a personal holding with the certificate and associated rights.

[greenlex]

I have, and I know he has done it for at least one other individual.

Do not ask for details as the Admins will remove the post – you would need to ask them why !




That in my opinion is why they are hoping you do and they have come out with this nonsense to put people off.



This is a fair point but when you are a member of H.S.L. limited you will be a minor cog and never see the big wheel of the A.G.M. whereas as a shareholder in your own right you will.Further when I am not here any shares I have personally will be left to my family whereas my membership to HSL Limited will not.

I do not expect to have any influence at a A.G.M. as an individual but then neither do I expect H.S.L. limited will either.

You do not have to go through an I.F.A. if you sign a waiver but the Club will not offer that option.


"Shares" in HSL will be able to be passed down. See question 6 in the vaulted thread.

[Weststandwanab]

I will be contributing to HSL as I see the benefits of having a fans body with a substantial shareholding in the club. However, like many, I think it will hold sentimental value to have a personal holding with the certificate and associated rights.

I will be doing both.

[Weststandwanab]

"Shares" in HSL will be able to be passed down. See question 6 in the vaulted thread.Hibs Supporters Limited is a Company limited by guarantee and as such there are no issued shares you become a member. Now they may well print a "share certificate" but it will have no legal status and be unable to be transferred in all likelihood.

[greenlex]

Hibs Supporters Limited is a Company limited by guarantee and as such there are no issued shares you become a member. Now they may well print a "share certificate" but it will have no legal status and be unable to be transferred in all likelihood.
Yada yada yada. This is why I put shares in inverted commas. The membership and therefor any rights in HSL is transferable. Your original post gave the impression that once you are no more that in effect would be that. It's not necessarily the case. Just added the HSL option of transfer for balance.:aok:

[HibeesLA]

I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, but apologies if it has been covered - what is the situation with foreign investors? Do I need to go through an IFA if I'm in the US? To be honest, I'm not sure if purchasing my top puts me on the database or not, but if I am, will they send a letter out to my US address?

Maybe I'll shoot the club an e-mail, but was hoping someone here might have already broached the subject with them.

[emerald green]

It's not put me off of anything. I'll be taking part through HSL for the same reasons that I took up Union membership in the past. I'll have a democratic say in how a large single fans voice is exercised rather than having next to no say in anything as a very minor shareholder. HSL is basically a co-operative for the fans, that ticks all the boxes for me. I can see the attraction for having an actual share certificate and being able to attend the AGM in person but that stuff doesn't bother me, being part of something that hopefully moves us forward will do for me.

:agree: This is basically how I see it, particularly the bit in bold.

[ancient hibee]

Perhaps an idea to put most of money into HSL and then try to buy a smaller number of shares from Hibs to hold yourself.INcidentally if you invest through HSL I wonder if (just like existing shareholders)this is enough to do without the need for the IFA route.

[emerald green]

Perhaps an idea to put most of money into HSL and then try to buy a smaller number of shares from Hibs to hold yourself.INcidentally if you invest through HSL I wonder if (just like existing shareholders)this is enough to do without the need for the IFA route.

Apologies if I'm not understanding the point you're making, but there is no need for any IFA involvement whatsoever if you contribute through HSL.

[lapsedhibee]

Apologies if I'm not understanding the point you're making, but there is no need for any IFA involvement whatsoever if you contribute through HSL.

Is there any chance that if you contribute through HSL for a length of time you could at some point be considered a sophisticated investor, just like existing shareholders, and after that time be able to buy shares on your own without using an IFA?

[Mikey]

Is there any chance that if you contribute through HSL for a length of time you could at some point be considered a sophisticated investor, just like existing shareholders, and after that time be able to buy shares on your own without using an IFA?

No!

[emerald green]

Is there any chance that if you contribute through HSL for a length of time you could at some point be considered a sophisticated investor, just like existing shareholders, and after that time be able to buy shares on your own without using an IFA?

Sorry, I don't know the answer to that question. Over to someone more knowledgeable than me on that one.

[Dashing Bob S]

IFA's are a scam. 90% of them know nothing about finance. Better sticking with HSL.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't know the answer to that question.


No!

:aok:

[Eyrie]

Presumably anyone with an existing IFA won't have to undergo the detailed assessment as the IFA will already have the information so the fee would be comparatively small.

Can anyone confirm this?

[malcolm]

An IFA is an Independent Financial Adviser who is qualified to give investment advice. In order for them to give the advice they must confirm they have undertaken an assessment .....and deems them suitable to invest in non-realisable securities of this type.

That would take them some time and they would face a liability if the advice was not suitable. In every investment transaction there has to be a file with an audit trail which can be checked. I really wish there was a shortcut but afraid it is the rules.

It is a joke for what is an emotional investment but the rules are there to protect the normal guy in the street for investing in the next great thing which is too good to be true.

I am an IFA but having stood for the board do not believe I could be seen to give impartial advice.

In this particular circumstance, these particular rules are not there to protect the man in the street. Cynically they are there to protect the FCA from being seen to stand by and doing nothing - which they have a brilliant record of so doing:wink:. In this instance Hibs are applying them in the way that seems the easiest to them. They are not a regulated entity authorised for financial promotions and could have gone down the certification route but were probably scared off by their advisers advice going for the belt and braces approach i.e. not being wrong but not really being that right in the circumstances either as it is all untested.

You may not be impartial just as any Hibs fan thinking of investing would not be impartial either hence the broad acceptance this is an emotional investment. The FCA are a principles based regulator and if it is OK for say a promoter to flog say shares in dead horse just because the buyer says 'its ok I can confirm I am not investing more that 10% of my net assets in this dead horse and I'm not risking the house, the pension or my life assurance to do it' then that principles based approach should not worry if an IFA's suitability assessment was a simple tick box one covering the same confirmation of net spend and emotional attachment.

I really don't think the FCA would be concerned but appreciate that like those advising Hibs on the share issue that IFAs would be a bit reticent to take an approach that to most is simply common sense. The result is that this share offering is getting the FCA's help in making a dream of owning a share in Hibs really non-readily realisable and will be less successful than it could have been because of it.:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

The result is that this share offering is getting the FCA's help in making a dream of owning a share in Hibs really non-readily realisable and will be less successful than it could have been because of it.:greengrin

Greengrin you may, but this is the one aspect of the whole shooting match that seriously troubles me. Hibs have, apparently deliberately, made it more difficult than it need have been for individuals to own shares individually. Less money will be raised than could have been. I can't understand why STF and RP have done this since, as any fule no, all money raised ends up in their back pockets anyway.

[MB62]

As an existing shareholder, I can buy shares without going through an IFA.

If I buy shares on behalf of somebody else e.g. mate gives e £500 to buy shares for him in the knowledge it will be in my name, can I later transfer these shares to him without going through an IFA anf if so, how would I go about doing that.

[schinkenotto]

Greengrin you may, but this is the one aspect of the whole shooting match that seriously troubles me. Hibs have, apparently deliberately, made it more difficult than it need have been for individuals to own shares individually. Less money will be raised than could have been. I can't understand why STF and RP have done this since, as any fule no, all money raised ends up in their back pockets anyway.

I can see why you've called yourself a "lapsed Hibee".Have you read and more importantly understood the relevant literature?

[PatHead]

Greengrin you may, but this is the one aspect of the whole shooting match that seriously troubles me. Hibs have, apparently deliberately, made it more difficult than it need have been for individuals to own shares individually. Less money will be raised than could have been. I can't understand why STF and RP have done this since, as any fule no, all money raised ends up in their back pockets anyway.

Hibs have not deliberately made it more difficult. Unfortunately it is not so straightforward to sell these type of shares due to the rules of the FCA.

[lapsedhibee]

Hibs have not deliberately made it more difficult. Unfortunately it is not so straightforward to sell these type of shares due to the rules of the FCA.


I can see why you've called yourself a "lapsed Hibee".Have you read and more importantly understood the relevant literature?

Yes, agree my previous post mostly nonsense. Been a bit puzzled why the FAQs indicate that IFAs "may" charge a fee for supporting an individual's application, whereas IFAs on here have been making it clear that the relevant assessment would be a major undertaking and would be expensive if indeed it was going to be made available at all. Would Hibs not have known all that? I haven't been right through the FSMA 2000 or FCA regs, but presumably Hibs' advisers would have. A very small point in the scheme of things, but it puzzled me. (I personally would have preferred an individual route, but not at any price and so will be happy enough with the HSL route.)

[MB62]

How big is your individual voice going to be as a single shareholder? I know you'll have a voice, but it won't make any difference (except for that certificate on your wall :greengrin)


It doesn't matter how big your voice is, it will be MY voice and not some groups voice voting on my behalf on something that I might not agree with.


You say there isn't anything wrong with HSL but you have doubts. Bit of a contradiction going on, no? I'm not trying to be nippy BTW, just genuinely concerned as you seem to have a willingness to contribute but have a greater willingness not to!

Aye, possibly, but what I meant was, if others want to go down the HSL line then I don't see anything wrong with that, everyone to their own, but personally, and also with other friends and family, we would rather just buy our own individual shares. Hibs apparently (I'm sure somebody posted) can waiver this IFA thing but don't want to so my money will be put to other uses, e.g. paying off my bills I accumulated over Christmas and New Year.

[Monktonhall 7]

One of the guys who drinks with us BTG before the match,walked into an IFAs shop last week, asked the question about authorising his application, duly got it signed and stamped F.O.C. I'm not gonna say where this was as the IFA may be inundated, but it can happen, and if you find a decent reasonable person, it's not a big deal.

[lapsedhibee]

One of the guys who drinks with us BTG before the match,walked into an IFAs shop last week, asked the question about authorising his application, duly got it signed and stamped F.O.C. I'm not gonna say where this was as the IFA may be inundated, but it can happen, and if you find a decent reasonable person, it's not a big deal.

Where was this? :greengrin

[Monktonhall 7]

Where was this? :greengrin

Saying nought! :rolleyes:I've sent a few e mails this morning to IFAs in East Edinburgh asking if they can help and what the charge would be. I'll update as soon as I get responses.

[Weststandwanab]

One of the guys who drinks with us BTG before the match,walked into an IFAs shop last week, asked the question about authorising his application, duly got it signed and stamped F.O.C. I'm not gonna say where this was as the IFA may be inundated, but it can happen, and if you find a decent reasonable person, it's not a big deal.

I did precisely this on the understanding that was the only way I could get a “prospectus”.

I delivered the form last week to the Ticket Office for the attention of The Share Manager – as directed.

This morning I received in the post a brown buff A4 envelope, hand written with my name on it and containing an unsigned document, 16 pages long, which is described as “not a prospectus” !

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Saying nought! :rolleyes:I've sent a few e mails this morning to IFAs in East Edinburgh asking if they can help and what the charge would be. I'll update as soon as I get responses.

Well done, looking forward to your update.

[Andy74]

I did precisely this on the understanding that was the only way I could get a “prospectus”.

I delivered the form last week to the Ticket Office for the attention of The Share Manager – as directed.

This morning I received in the post a brown buff A4 envelope, hand written with my name on it and containing an unsigned document, 16 pages long, which is described as “not a prospectus” !

I can't even get a letter out of Hibs yet!

[Weststandwanab]

I can't even get a letter out of Hibs yet!

Andy, if I was on the Board I would be embarrassed to read that comment.

Can I suggest that you contact Frank and Amit, explain the situation and ask them in their capacity as Fan’s Representatives to get you the letter ?

[Bristolhibby]

I will be contributing to HSL as I see the benefits of having a fans body with a substantial shareholding in the club. However, like many, I think it will hold sentimental value to have a personal holding with the certificate and associated rights.

This, it's a nonsense that I have to pay for IFA. I'm not investing to get a return, but to have a multi generational stake in the club I own. I would see my Dads shares coming to me and my brother, then my shares passing on to my two boys. We will all be on the lookout for Hibs best interests and quite frankly don't look for anything in return.

As was pointed out, I can't leave my membership to a cooperative to my kids.

J

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This, it's a nonsense that I have to pay for IFA. I'm not investing to get a return, but to have a multi generational stake in the club I own. I would see my Dads shares coming to me and my brother, then my shares passing on to my two boys. We will all be on the lookout for Hibs best interests and quite frankly don't look for anything in return.

As was pointed out, I can't leave my membership to a cooperative to my kids.

J

Very much this, I'd be awfy interested to attend the AGM too.

[Mikey]

As was pointed out, I can't leave my membership to a cooperative to my kids.

J

Yes you can.....

6 Can my HSL membership be handed down to my family in the same way that my Hibs shares can?

A. Yes, subject to the normal Membership criteria being met.


http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297704-Hibernian-Supporters-Limited-Q-amp-A

[Eyrie]

I can't even get a letter out of Hibs yet!

More letters were sent out yesterday, so should be arriving tomorrow.

Or it's back to emailing the club again :grr:

[Danderhall Hibs]

More letters were sent out yesterday, so should be arriving tomorrow.

Or it's back to emailing the club again :grr:

I got a PDF copy sent by email on Sunday - no paper copy. Now in the process of an IFA that will sign the letter.