PDA

View Full Version : The share issue of the late 80s



Smartie
28-01-2015, 05:31 PM
A few years before the attempted takeover/merger of Hibs by Wallace Mercer then had been a "share issue" and as far as I remember a lot of fans stumped up a lot of money to get their own share of the club.

I'm too young to remember it at the time but I've read odds and ends about it all over the years since although I've forgotten a lot of the details of it.

What exactly went on? What led up to it and what did it try to achieve? Why did it so nearly end up in absolute disaster?

More to the point is there anything that we can learn from that whole episode to help us as we go through the "fan ownership" process that has now been started?

Viva_Palmeiras
28-01-2015, 05:35 PM
"Carnage" discuss... ;)

lord bunberry
28-01-2015, 05:37 PM
One of the reasons was that they gave a guy(David Rowlands I think) something like 20% of the shares for nothing, he agreed to sell them to mercer. They also invested some of the money on wine bars in Bath.

Ozyhibby
28-01-2015, 05:43 PM
Raised £1.8m if I remember correctly.
Hopefully we can do £2.5m now 30 years on

Onion
28-01-2015, 05:52 PM
There was also a rights issue later on at 50p a share. The Hibs Board thought investing is property was a sure fire thing (pubs and restaurants in Avon/Bristol) just before the market collapsed ! All I remember was getting a certificate and priority for big match tickets :confused:

schinkenotto
29-01-2015, 05:35 PM
The problem with the share issue then involved many factors.

The shares were quoted on the Stock Exchange-a very costly exercise,requiring expensive advisers and stock exchange fees.

David Rowland,who had a major involvement was a well known asset stripper.

David Duff and Jim Gray were Walter Mitty characters probably genuine supporters but hadn't a clue how to run public company.The only good thing they did was to sign Dougie Bell,who was a delight to watch!

As has been said by other posters,the Board at that time were obsessed with property(probably encouraged by Rowland) and borrowed extensively to finance this.Then the property value collapse at that time destroyed the Club's finances.As well as pubs and wine bars,the Club had an upmarket flat in the High Street,for the use of the directors!

The directors said the thinking behind the property investment was that increasing property values and property income would finance the football side,whereas,as things turned out the football side was actually drained by the property side which eventually made the shares virtually valueless,leaving the way open for Mercer and all that followed.I think that the directors were trying to follow the Ken Bates Chelsea model,where Bates invested in hotels and other properties and said they would finance the football side!That didn't work either and Chelsea shares,which were also quoted on the stock exchange lost most of their value and were scooped up by Abramovich.

Like other posters,I bought the first issue of shares and like the mad Hibee I am,I subscribed for the rights issue(the Company was by then called Forth Investments Limited-says it all!).I and others in the 50 Club and the support generally bought more shares,after the Mercer approach to try to resist him.All these shares became totally valueless and the allegedly evil Tom Farmer gave shares in the Club to all those fans who were shareholders in Forth Investments Limited.

The lessons to be learned from that debacle are simple.Don't be a publicly quoted Company or you'll be prey to hostile takeovers and don't get involved with personal glory seekers,people with personal vendettas to further at the expense of the Club,spivs,chancers,former players,who don't have real clue what is going on and people who deface lampposts with illiterate posters!

keep the faith
29-01-2015, 05:42 PM
The problem with the share issue then involved many factors.

The shares were quoted on the Stock Exchange-a very costly exercise,requiring expensive advisers and stock exchange fees.

David Rowland,who had a major involvement was a well known asset stripper.

David Duff and Jim Gray were Walter Mitty characters probably genuine supporters but hadn't a clue how to run public company.The only good thing they did was to sign Dougie Bell,who was a delight to watch!

As has been said by other posters,the Board at that time were obsessed with property(probably encouraged by Rowland) and borrowed extensively to finance this.Then the property value collapse at that time destroyed the Club's finances.As well as pubs and wine bars,the Club had an upmarket flat in the High Street,for the use of the directors!

The directors said the thinking behind the property investment was that increasing property values and property income would finance the football side,whereas,as things turned out the football side was actually drained by the property side which eventually made the shares virtually valueless,leaving the way open for Mercer and all that followed.I think that the directors were trying to follow the Ken Bates Chelsea model,where Bates invested in hotels and other properties and said they would finance the football side!That didn't work either and Chelsea shares,which were also quoted on the stock exchange lost most of their value and were scooped up by Abramovich.

Like other posters,I bought the first issue of shares and like the mad Hibee I am,I subscribed for the rights issue(the Company was by then called Forth Investments Limited-says it all!).I and others in the 50 Club and the support generally bought more shares,after the Mercer approach to try to resist him.All these shares became totally valueless and the allegedly evil Tom Farmer gave shares in the Club to all those fans who were shareholders in Forth Investments Limited.

The lessons to be learned from that debacle are simple.Don't be a publicly quoted Company or you'll be prey to hostile takeovers and don't get involved with personal glory seekers,people with personal vendettas to further at the expense of the Club,spivs,chancers,former players,who don't have real clue what is going on and people who deface lampposts with illiterate posters!

Dougie Bell!! You were clearly a fan of the sideways pass then!!

GordonHFC
29-01-2015, 05:49 PM
The problem with the share issue then involved many factors.

The shares were quoted on the Stock Exchange-a very costly exercise,requiring expensive advisers and stock exchange fees.

David Rowland,who had a major involvement was a well known asset stripper.

David Duff and Jim Gray were Walter Mitty characters probably genuine supporters but hadn't a clue how to run public company.The only good thing they did was to sign Dougie Bell,who was a delight to watch!

As has been said by other posters,the Board at that time were obsessed with property(probably encouraged by Rowland) and borrowed extensively to finance this.Then the property value collapse at that time destroyed the Club's finances.As well as pubs and wine bars,the Club had an upmarket flat in the High Street,for the use of the directors!

The directors said the thinking behind the property investment was that increasing property values and property income would finance the football side,whereas,as things turned out the football side was actually drained by the property side which eventually made the shares virtually valueless,leaving the way open for Mercer and all that followed.I think that the directors were trying to follow the Ken Bates Chelsea model,where Bates invested in hotels and other properties and said they would finance the football side!That didn't work either and Chelsea shares,which were also quoted on the stock exchange lost most of their value and were scooped up by Abramovich.

Like other posters,I bought the first issue of shares and like the mad Hibee I am,I subscribed for the rights issue(the Company was by then called Forth Investments Limited-says it all!).I and others in the 50 Club and the support generally bought more shares,after the Mercer approach to try to resist him.All these shares became totally valueless and the allegedly evil Tom Farmer gave shares in the Club to all those fans who were shareholders in Forth Investments Limited.

The lessons to be learned from that debacle are simple.Don't be a publicly quoted Company or you'll be prey to hostile takeovers and don't get involved with personal glory seekers,people with personal vendettas to further at the expense of the Club,spivs,chancers,former players,who don't have real clue what is going on and people who deface lampposts with illiterate posters!

I bought £200 worth at the time but didn't get them transferred by STF as I lost my certificate.

Baldy Foghorn
29-01-2015, 05:50 PM
I bought £200 worth at the time but didn't get them transferred by STF as I lost my certificate.

You would have been on share register though surely?

Islington Hibs
29-01-2015, 05:51 PM
I was taken in then too. I knew Duff a bit and I still have a soft spot for him. I think he did want the best for the club but was totally out of his depth and shafted by Rowland who offloaded his duff pubs on the gullible Duff at the top of the market. Rowland would happily have built houses on the turf. Duff sadly went to prison over mortgage fraud.

Duff was likable but weak and naïve. Ultimately he did not sell out to Mercer, although it would have been to his financial advantage to do so.

This share issue is totally different. As other have said it will not be quoted, the clubs finances are in pretty decent shape, STF will still have a very substantial stake and that sort of underwrites the club and the cash will go to the team.

Baldy Foghorn
29-01-2015, 05:51 PM
Dougie Bell!! You were clearly a fan of the sideways pass then!!

Would have been delirious signing Ray Wilkins then:greengrin

Islington Hibs
29-01-2015, 05:52 PM
I bought £200 worth at the time but didn't get them transferred by STF as I lost my certificate.

You should contact the club as possession of the certificate is not the only proof of ownership. You should still be registered.

GordonHFC
29-01-2015, 05:53 PM
You would have been on share register though surely?

Didn't pursue it at the time BF. My fault.

schinkenotto
29-01-2015, 06:07 PM
Dougie Bell!! You were clearly a fan of the sideways pass then!!

:wink:

Joe's ice cream
29-01-2015, 06:40 PM
Has anyone got a link to the TV add for the scheme? Seem to remember it had fans sat in the dugout along with the players

tamig
29-01-2015, 07:10 PM
Has anyone got a link to the TV add for the scheme? Seem to remember it had fans sat in the dugout along with the players

John Collins and Stevie Archibald among others iirc.

Pete
29-01-2015, 07:11 PM
Has anyone got a link to the TV add for the scheme? Seem to remember it had fans sat in the dugout along with the players

It's featured in "that was the team that was".

Watched it last night funnily enough.

McIntosh
29-01-2015, 07:37 PM
I was taken in then too. I knew Duff a bit and I still have a soft spot for him. I think he did want the best for the club but was totally out of his depth and shafted by Rowland who offloaded his duff pubs on the gullible Duff at the top of the market. Rowland would happily have built houses on the turf. Duff sadly went to prison over mortgage fraud.

Duff was likable but weak and naïve. Ultimately he did not sell out to Mercer, although it would have been to his financial advantage to do so.

This share issue is totally different. As other have said it will not be quoted, the clubs finances are in pretty decent shape, STF will still have a very substantial stake and that sort of underwrites the club and the cash will go to the team.

What are Duff and Gray both doing know?

ancient hibee
29-01-2015, 08:15 PM
What are Duff and Gray both doing know?


5 years????

Bostonhibby
29-01-2015, 08:47 PM
A few years before the attempted takeover/merger of Hibs by Wallace Mercer then had been a "share issue" and as far as I remember a lot of fans stumped up a lot of money to get their own share of the club.

I'm too young to remember it at the time but I've read odds and ends about it all over the years since although I've forgotten a lot of the details of it.

What exactly went on? What led up to it and what did it try to achieve? Why did it so nearly end up in absolute disaster?

More to the point is there anything that we can learn from that whole episode to help us as we go through the "fan ownership" process that has now been started?
Mercer needed a prick from that era with the same disinterest in football but with a thatcherite eye for the main chance that he had.

Step forward David Rowland (what's he been doing since?) I had shares then and if it wasn't for Rowlands wife being unable to support whatever he was up to then and STF doing what he did then the talkers who want to take the high ground at zero expense to themselves today wouldn't have a club to get indignant about.

HOH back then meant something too.

GGTTH

CraigHibee
29-01-2015, 08:50 PM
the team that was :thumbsup:

the share advert is about a minute in


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3DvwAINYfw

Kato
29-01-2015, 08:56 PM
The jambos are fond of spreading the myth these days that D Duff (and sometimes they'll include Grey) were jailed for whatever it was the happened at Hibs in the last days of their tenure.

Grey has never been in jail and there wasn't any criminal charges brought against him or Duff for happened at ER.


Duff went to jail a few years later for mortgage fraud concerning properties in Swindon.

Just saying.

greenginger
29-01-2015, 08:56 PM
What are Duff and Gray both doing know?


Duff certainly got jailed, but it was to do with some mortgage scam in England. I met him at the Sheriff Court in Edinburgh, roughly 1997 , we were both witnesses at a trial.

He had been let out of an open prison and traveled up from England himself and was staying at the Sheraton . He was in good spirits but did not want to talk about Hibs at all.

I think Gray went back to running a tarmacadam sub-contracting outfit ..... Boys from the Blackstuff !

Bostonhibby
29-01-2015, 08:58 PM
The jambos are fond of spreading the myth these days that D Duff (and sometimes they'll include Grey) were jailed for whatever it was the happened at Hibs in the last days of their tenure.

Grey has never been in jail and there wasn't any criminal charges brought against him or Duff for happened at ER.


Duff went to jail a few years later for mortgage fraud concerning properties in Swindon.

Just saying.
True every word

Kato
29-01-2015, 08:58 PM
if it wasn't for Rowlands wife being unable to support whatever he was up to

She refused to sell her shares as did Duff. It stopped Mercer, who is now dead, killing Hibs as he needed 76% to shut the club down.

Billy Whizz
29-01-2015, 09:04 PM
[QUOTE=CraigHibee;4287287]the team that was :thumbsup:

the share advert is about a minute in


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3DvwAINYfw[/QUOT

Thanks for the link
After the 1st minute, reminds of of why I hate Hearts so much

ballengeich
29-01-2015, 09:09 PM
Step forward David Rowland (what's he been doing since?) Donating large sums to the Tories.

I had shares then and if it wasn't for Rowlands wife being unable to support whatever he was up to then and STF doing what he did then the talkers who want to take the high ground at zero expense to themselves today wouldn't have a club to get indignant about.



I also bought shares then. While I never had any expectation of making any money from them, I hadn't appreciated quite how dodgy the scheme was. Duff and Gray were minnows who'd strayed into a shark tank.

Bostonhibby
29-01-2015, 09:10 PM
She refused to sell her shares as did Duff. It stopped Mercer, who is now dead, killing Hibs as he needed 76% to shut the club down.
Sorry. Self answering question. Sheila Rowland seemed to form a similar view of her husband at about the same time as most of us did. We are here because of farmers intervention at the right time and her belligerence whatever inspired it . Duff and Gray were out of their depth patsys for what the spivs were plotting.

NORTHERNHIBBY
29-01-2015, 09:14 PM
I remember Duff and Gray standing in the east with rolled up sleeves. A lot of us were taken in by them. Me included.

CraigHibee
29-01-2015, 09:15 PM
the team that was :thumbsup:

the share advert is about a minute in


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3DvwAINYfw

Thanks for the link
After the 1st minute, reminds of of why I hate Hearts so much


no worries bud! i need no reminder why i hate the moral high ground taking bunch of beasts:greengrin

Kaiser1962
29-01-2015, 09:19 PM
She refused to sell her shares as did Duff. It stopped Mercer, who is now dead, killing Hibs as he needed 76% to shut the club down.

Not sure she had any. She was a director put there to represent her ex husbands interests. What she did do was vote against acceptance of Mercer's offer, against Spotty's wishes, thus ensuring that Mercers bid was rejected. It's fair to say neither Rowland or Mercer saw that one coming.

The 76% target was set by Mercer and his ego.

ballengeich
29-01-2015, 09:19 PM
I remember Duff and Gray standing in the east with rolled up sleeves. A lot of us were taken in by them. Me included.

The main problem was that they were taken in by themselves. I believe they were well-meaning, but inadequate for the task they took on.

Kaiser1962
29-01-2015, 09:23 PM
The main problem was that they were taken in by themselves. I believe they were well-meaning, but inadequate for the task they took on.

I think they themselves were taken in by (and financially reliant on) David Rowland.

ballengeich
29-01-2015, 09:33 PM
I think they themselves were taken in by (and financially reliant on) David Rowland.

I agree.

The people behind the current share issue are of a completely different character and calibre.

Billy Whizz
29-01-2015, 09:34 PM
I recognise one or two youngish Hibs.net posters from the footage

Baader
29-01-2015, 09:38 PM
14167

Both went on to successful careers in entertainment

jdships
29-01-2015, 09:40 PM
I agree.

The people behind the current share issue are of a completely different character and calibre.

Jury's out on that one , at least with most of my Hibbee mates.
Need to see more " proof of intention"
I , with my son , was a shareholder in the 80's and was involved in the " Mercer Negotiations"
Duff's refusal to sell saved the club and as a previous poster said he was a pleasant guy to be with .
Somewhere along the line he got poor advice - the rest is history

:rolleyes:

jdships
29-01-2015, 09:41 PM
I think they themselves were taken in by (and financially reliant on) David Rowland.

:agree::top marks

Kato
29-01-2015, 09:41 PM
Not sure she had any. She was a director put there to represent her ex husbands interests. What she did do was vote against acceptance of Mercer's offer, against Spotty's wishes, thus ensuring that Mercers bid was rejected. It's fair to say neither Rowland or Mercer saw that one coming.

The 76% target was set by Mercer and his ego.

At the time the 76% was mentioned as a target as it was/is written into the constitution of the club that it required that amount of ownership to stop the club trading and close the club down. Mercer reached 66% and him and Rowland tried to strong-arm Duff into selling his share which he refused to do scuppering the sale. Which is what I heard anyway.

Bostonhibby
29-01-2015, 10:24 PM
The main problem was that they were taken in by themselves. I believe they were well-meaning, but inadequate for the task they took on.

:top marks patsy's tailor made for what the money men were plotting to do.

McIntosh
29-01-2015, 10:37 PM
Duff certainly got jailed, but it was to do with some mortgage scam in England. I met him at the Sheriff Court in Edinburgh, roughly 1997 , we were both witnesses at a trial. He had been let out of an open prison and traveled up from England himself and was staying at the Sheraton . He was in good spirits but did not want to talk about Hibs at all. I think Gray went back to running a tarmacadam sub-contracting outfit ..... Boys from the Blackstuff !Thanks

Aubenas
29-01-2015, 10:39 PM
The village full of fraud.
Amazing story of what happened to David Duff and the folk in the village he lived in down south. It reads like Midsomer Murders without the murders!
http://www.nickdavies.net/1993/09/01/the-death-of-trust/
:confused:

Bishop Hibee
30-01-2015, 12:09 AM
It was all too Thatcherite for me so I didn't buy any although at that time I could have afforded to. I know a few people who were stiffed out of hundreds of pounds. Bad times around then but that made the League Cup win in '91 all the sweeter. The Jambos had last won a trophy in 1960. It was a brilliant GIRUY to them after they tried to destroy us.

greenginger
30-01-2015, 12:22 AM
It was all too Thatcherite for me so I didn't buy any although at that time I could have afforded to. I know a few people who were stiffed out of hundreds of pounds. Bad times around then but that made the League Cup win in '91 all the sweeter. The Jambos had last won a trophy in 1960. It was a brilliant GIRUY to them after they tried to destroy us.


A story I heard about that League Cup Final. Mercer was on the league management committee at the time and he had argued that there was no need for the final to be all ticket as Hibs V Dunfermline would be a crowd of less than 20,000. Got egg on his face that day too.

Salisbury Hibby
30-01-2015, 01:51 AM
She refused to sell her shares as did Duff. It stopped Mercer, who is now dead, killing Hibs as he needed 76% to shut the club down.
See every time I hear Jambos moaning about how Hibs fans wanted to shut them down, I just think "How dare they".
Mercer started all of this animosity.

Virginia Hibs
30-01-2015, 02:56 AM
Wee bit off topic but seeing as how the telly advert made an appearance there was also a photo ad where we (fans) sat in a 'team photo' with the players in the cave. I just happened to...ehem.... be 'aff sick' that day and went to ER for the video and the photo session. Think I only ever saw the photo once and never managed to get a copy. If anyone has access to a copy or know of its existence?

A wee side note - that day was the first time my eyes were opened about some players disregard for us as fans. The players were put through a light training session on the pitch after the photos and videos had been taken. Mid way through a certain Keith Houchen breaks off and goes to the bottom of the slope and starts to pee through the fence on to the terracing. A few shouts of 'thats where we stand ye dirty..? was met with the same 2 fingered salute that was to reappear in Fife sometime later. Mr Houchen went down in our estimations a fair bit from there on.

cockneymike
30-01-2015, 04:44 AM
David Rowland - just another reason to hate the Tories:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/aug/20/david-rowland-controversy-conservatives

Septimus
30-01-2015, 07:17 AM
My memory is not what it once was but I think that I recall being at a Hibs v Celtic cup semi final at Hampden and watching Duff and Gray walking round the track graciously accepting the plaudits of the Hibs fans. We all thought then that the Brave New World was upon us. We were beaten that day.

The Falcon
30-01-2015, 07:31 AM
At the time the 76% was mentioned as a target as it was/is written into the constitution of the club that it required that amount of ownership to stop the club trading and close the club down. Mercer reached 66% and him and Rowland tried to strong-arm Duff into selling his share which he refused to do scuppering the sale. Which is what I heard anyway.


If he had 66% then I guess he could have had control if he wanted? Unless I am missing something.

Was the company not a busted flush anyhow, which is why Mercer tried to take it?

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 07:59 AM
If he had 66% then I guess he could have had control if he wanted? Unless I am missing something.

Was the company not a busted flush anyhow, which is why Mercer tried to take it?
Certain decisions need 75% majority. The merger was one of them. Hence he needed the 76% to be sure of getting it through.

erin go bragh
30-01-2015, 09:08 AM
A story I heard about that League Cup Final. Mercer was on the league management committee at the time and he had argued that there was no need for the final to be all ticket as Hibs V Dunfermline would be a crowd of less than 20,000. Got egg on his face that day too.

Got locked out that day . As did thousands .
Dont like to speak ill of the dead , but ill make an exeption in this case .
Fat tory jambo barsteward that he was .

Ggtth

Turkish Green
30-01-2015, 09:52 AM
David Duff = Charles Green

The only difference then from now is that Tom Farmer managed to buy Hibernian FC Ltd from the receiver of the insolvent parent company Edinburgh Hibernian plc (as a going concern) without the football club ending up in a lower division to start again. It was the same football club, which is the argument that the huns have been making when Rangers went breasts skyward and had to seek election to the SFL as a new club.

Different rules for companies and clubs 25 years ago.

Turkish Green
30-01-2015, 10:25 AM
Duff certainly got jailed, but it was to do with some mortgage scam in England.


Duff moved down to England after he departed Hibs and ran a solicitor practice in Swindon. He was convicted (and subsequently struck off) in 1993 for fraud. Basically, taking out mortgages in the name of clients and pocketing the money. He was jailed for 2 years.

Duff was investigated in 2009 when a charity he was involved with (Edinburgh University Settlement) went bankrupt owing 4M.

What I will say in Duff's defence is that, while he used dubious financial methods for him and Jim Gray to take control of the club and then brought in the asset stripper David Rowland to the board, he did not sell out to Mercer when his subsequent actions would have suggested that he'd go for the quick profit given that Mercer was offering well over the going price for the shares.

Whatever else David Duff has done in his life, he has to be thanked for not selling out to Mercer.

Kato
30-01-2015, 12:16 PM
David Duff = Charles Green

The only difference then from now is that Tom Farmer managed to buy Hibernian FC Ltd from the receiver of the insolvent parent company Edinburgh Hibernian plc (as a going concern) without the football club ending up in a lower division to start again. It was the same football club, which is the argument that the huns have been making when Rangers went breasts skyward and had to seek election to the SFL as a new club.

Different rules for companies and clubs 25 years ago.

Farmer also split the various divisions of the company up, i.e. he let Avon Inns go to the wall.

He also paid up on all the Football Clubs debts, something he wasn't legally required to do.

Ozyhibby
30-01-2015, 01:14 PM
He also paid up on all the Football Clubs debts, something he wasn't legally required to do.

I'm sure Ann Budge is about to do the same with the Yams. ;-)

Kato
30-01-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm sure Ann Budge is about to do the same with the Yams. ;-)

They have "values" which is at the core of their "heritage" and I'm sure they don't want to be seen as a club who just stamp all over small businesses, charities and other football clubs so she be on the verge of paying all that money out any time now..........errm, now..............now?......hold on it will happen.