Hypothetical Question?

[spike220]

Hypothetical Question?

Would you rather still have Butcher as coach playing terrible football in the SPL or Stubbs in the Championship as is the case now???

Remember we would get bragging rights if we are the SPL for staying up!!

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Hypothetical Question?

Would you rather still have Butcher as coach playing terrible football in the SPL or Stubbs in the Championship as is the case now???

Remember we would get bragging rights if we are the SPL for staying up!!

Absolute no brainer. Stubbs every time.

[jacomo]

I'm not sure we would have seen the changes and off field progress we have without relegation. Remember that the decision whether or not to stick with Butcher was dropped in LD's lap - and if Butcher had stayed, I cannot see how the 'football dept' would have been rebuilt in the way it has.

Reluctantly, and rather depressingly, I now think that relegation was the necessary jolt to the system that this club needed. And I'm very happy with AS.

[Pretty Boy]

LD would have sacked Butcher regardless imo.

I was at the 1st meeting with her and it was obvious within 30 seconds of listening to her what she thought of that buffoon even although she said no decision had been made. I said to the person sitting next to me (a poster on here who may confirm I'm not making this up) that he was a dead man walking.

The plan to redevelop the football side of the club into a modern, productive and positive environment was already in place regardless of relegation happening. George Craig was already as good as in place. Butcher was and is a dinosaur and has absolutely no place in such an environment.

So my answer is I would have prefered Stubbs but in the Premiership which I think would have happened if Butcher hadn't been so totally ****ing inept.

[jacomo]

Maybe. Shows how little sense there was in the Hibs boardroom - Butcher and team hired on a long term basis, and then only a couple of months later moves put in place to go in a completely different direction with Craig and Dempster? Crazy.

[Billy Whizz]

Maybe. Shows how little sense there was in the Hibs boardroom - Butcher and team hired on a long term basis, and then only a couple of months later moves put in place to go in a completely different direction with Craig and Dempster? Crazy.

And most of the board are still there

[PatHead]

Answered Stubbs but don't think Butcher would have survived anyway as he wouldn't have bought into Leeann's vision.

[spike220]

Answered Stubbs but don't think Butcher would have survived anyway as he wouldn't have bought into Leeann's vision.

Over 90% prefer Stubbs in the Championship v Butcher in the SPL, says it all really!

[Stuarty27]

LD would have sacked Butcher regardless imo.

I was at the 1st meeting with her and it was obvious within 30 seconds of listening to her what she thought of that buffoon even although she said no decision had been made. I said to the person sitting next to me (a poster on here who may confirm I'm not making this up) that he was a dead man walking.

The plan to redevelop the football side of the club into a modern, productive and positive environment was already in place regardless of relegation happening. George Craig was already as good as in place. Butcher was and is a dinosaur and has absolutely no place in such an environment.

So my answer is I would have prefered Stubbs but in the Premiership which I think would have happened if Butcher hadn't been so totally ****ing inept.


Spot on, there is no way Butcher would fit I the way the club is run now.

The great thing for me is if Stubbs decided to try his luck down South again, I think it's much easier for a new headcoach to be appointed into the system.

[PeeJay]

Why anyone would prefer the Championship over the SPFL is beyond me ...

[spike220]

Why anyone would prefer the Championship over the SPFL is beyond me ...

Is that you Terry?

[Thecat23]

Why anyone would prefer the Championship over the SPFL is beyond me ...

I think it's more to do with the way Hibs have rebuilt. If that meant taking a hit going down then fine. Having Butcher still at Hibs would just prolong the crap football, poor training, poor man managment, badly run and poor scouting!

Would you prefer we stuck with TB?

[Smartie]

I went for Stubbs and the Championship. I've started to really enjoy going to Hibs games again and it's a while since I said that. It doesn't really matter about the level, the enjoyment factor is what it's all about.

For all the football last season was an absolute abomination, I don't actually think that if Butcher had stayed and been able to bring in his own players that the football would bear any resemblance whatsoever to the garbage that we had last year. I would have given him a clean slate. His Inverness team wasn't a brutal hoofball machine so I don't think that is necessarily his preferred way to play and it might actually have worked out.

We'll never know though and I'm happy that we've gone in the direction we have.

[PeeJay]

I think it's more to do with the way Hibs have rebuilt. If that meant taking a hit going down then fine. Having Butcher still at Hibs would just prolong the crap football, poor training, poor man managment, badly run and poor scouting!

Would you prefer we stuck with TB?

I'd prefer us to be in the top fight, even "with Butcher in charge" - the OP asked to choose between the two, I see no reason for HIbs fans to prefer to be in a lower league: I don't "get that", I don't agree that "taking a hit" necessarily helps us ... this is a club that as to be in the top flight - I don't subscribe to the view that everything wrong at Hibs was to do with TB either ... we were in trouble long before he came, and we're not out of the Championship yet, so - as far as I'm concerned - the jury is still out on Mr Stubbs -

[Thecat23]

I'd prefer us to be in the top fight, even "with Butcher in charge" - the OP asked to choose between the two, I see no reason for HIbs fans to prefer to be in a lower league: I don't "get that", I don't agree that "taking a hit" necessarily helps us ... this is a club that as to be in the top flight - I don't subscribe to the view that everything wrong at Hibs was to do with TB either ... we were in trouble long before he came, and we're not out of the Championship yet, so - as far as I'm concerned - the jury is still out on Mr Stubbs -

Loads where wrong at the club that I agree with. But you can't hide from the facts of how bad he was. His football was poor the players were very unfit and we were being run very amateurish. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong to say we would be better off with TB and in the top flight. We needed a massive overhaul and Stubbs and his backroom team have been brought in and for me done superb considering the huge mess Butcher left us in. As much as you can't get you're head around folk choosing Stubbs and this league I can't for the life of me get my head around you trying to defend Butcher reign at the club. He was worse than Calderwood and that's saying something.

[PeeJay]

Loads where wrong at the club that I agree with. But you can't hide from the facts of how bad he was. His football was poor the players were very unfit and we were being run very amateurish. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong to say we would be better off with TB and in the top flight. We needed a massive overhaul and Stubbs and his backroom team have been brought in and for me done superb considering the huge mess Butcher left us in. As much as you can't get you're head around folk choosing Stubbs and this league I can't for the life of me get my head around you trying to defend Butcher reign at the club. He was worse than Calderwood and that's saying something.

Eh, wait a minute, I responded to the OP: I said I'd prefer to be in the top flight (albeit with Butcher) rather than this lower league ... it's not quite the same as what you are now suggesting - I'm not defending Butcher! Maybe (this is all hypothetical, after all :greengrin - so according to the OP, we wouldn't have been relegated!) - maybe Butcher would have had the team (his team, a different team) playing better football in the top flight, if he had stayed, I don't know, I'm not sure ... whatever, if I had the choice (given by the hypothesis) I'd rather be in the top flight than where we are, that's all I'm saying - As to the massive overhaul we still need it in my opinion, because the people at the root of our problem are actually still here.

Hypothetically yours ... :greengrin

[Smartie]

Loads where wrong at the club that I agree with. But you can't hide from the facts of how bad he was. His football was poor the players were very unfit and we were being run very amateurish. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong to say we would be better off with TB and in the top flight. We needed a massive overhaul and Stubbs and his backroom team have been brought in and for me done superb considering the huge mess Butcher left us in. As much as you can't get you're head around folk choosing Stubbs and this league I can't for the life of me get my head around you trying to defend Butcher reign at the club. He was worse than Calderwood and that's saying something.

Defending Butcher really is defending the indefensible but I also think we're kidding himself to be the pariah that we sometimes do on here.

He was partly culpable and played a part in our relegation, no doubt about it. But he was set up to fail imo - we were a shambles when he joined. It wouldn't have been hard to make us even slightly better but he failed. As with several previous managers, he had a horrible transfer window last January attempting to flog players that no-one would buy before having to get in cut-price loan deals at the last minute to patch up a squad that was already starting to falter. From then on, a slump was inevitable but the scale of it and the eventual relegation was still surprising.

Calderwood was the worst for me. No redeeming features whatsoever, an atrocious appointment who didn't even want to be here. Poor Fenlon tried to hold it all together with sticking plasters but that was never going to work longer term. All our other recent incumbents had pros and cons and might have worked out with the right support but were undermined by the man who appointed them all, THE main man who got us relegated.

We're in a much, much better place now though. Ok, that is in the Championship but hopefully we can still manage to get out of it at the first attempt and there won't have been too much damage done.

[Thecat23]

Eh, wait a minute, I responded to the OP: I said I'd prefer to be in the top flight (albeit with Butcher) rather than this lower league ... it's not quite the same as what you are now suggesting - I'm not defending Butcher! Maybe (this is all hypothetical, after all :greengrin - so according to the OP, we wouldn't have been relegated!) - maybe Butcher would have had the team (his team, a different team) playing better football in the top flight, if he had stayed, I don't know, I'm not sure ... whatever, if I had the choice (given by the hypothesis) I'd rather be in the top flight than where we are, that's all I'm saying - As to the massive overhaul we still need it in my opinion, because the people at the root of our problem are actually still here.

Hypothetically yours ... :greengrin

Sorry if I picked you up wrong then, fair do's if you would prefer Butcher and top flight football.

I prefer the football on offer just now and like night and day to be honest. Not being smart or that but do you get over for many games? If so what do you think of us this season so far? The overhaul first and foremost was needed in the dugout. Proper investment in the way we do things not just on a sat but in training how we scout players and how we treat the kids coming through. All were flagging under Butcher and malpass.

As for the board yes 100% agree that far to many are still there and I'd have liked to see a lot more changes there. :agree:

[Thecat23]

Defending Butcher really is defending the indefensible but I also think we're kidding himself to be the pariah that we sometimes do on here.

He was partly culpable and played a part in our relegation, no doubt about it. But he was set up to fail imo - we were a shambles when he joined. It wouldn't have been hard to make us even slightly better but he failed. As with several previous managers, he had a horrible transfer window last January attempting to flog players that no-one would buy before having to get in cut-price loan deals at the last minute to patch up a squad that was already starting to falter. From then on, a slump was inevitable but the scale of it and the eventual relegation was still surprising.

Calderwood was the worst for me. No redeeming features whatsoever, an atrocious appointment who didn't even want to be here. Poor Fenlon tried to hold it all together with sticking plasters but that was never going to work longer term. All our other recent incumbents had pros and cons and might have worked out with the right support but were undermined by the man who appointed them all, THE main man who got us relegated.

We're in a much, much better place now though. Ok, that is in the Championship but hopefully we can still manage to get out of it at the first attempt and there won't have been too much damage done.

Calderwood really was rank yes. But I honestly believe Butcher's tactics and training styles was worse. I wanted him as well and was delighted when we got him but after hearing the horror stories of him pinning a player up against the wall and screaming his head off (maybe that was needed at times) but he really zapped all confidence out the players.

People refer to ICT but that's just one season he done well was it not? he relegated them as well. His record under almost every other team he's been at is brutal. We could go round in circles all day about who is worse but thankfully we seem to have finally landed ourselves a good hungry young manager. If he gets us up first time of asking then for me he's worked miracles.

[Mikey09]

I'd prefer us to be in the top fight, even "with Butcher in charge" - the OP asked to choose between the two, I see no reason for HIbs fans to prefer to be in a lower league: I don't "get that", I don't agree that "taking a hit" necessarily helps us ... this is a club that as to be in the top flight - I don't subscribe to the view that everything wrong at Hibs was to do with TB either ... we were in trouble long before he came, and we're not out of the Championship yet, so - as far as I'm concerned - the jury is still out on Mr Stubbs -


You're joking PeeJay Aye?? You would seriously want to watch that eye bleeding excuse for football again? Never In a million years would I want to watch that kind of pish at Easter road again even in the top league. And of course "everything" that was wrong with Hibs wasn't his fault but the football on a match day certainly was. I have seen Lowland League sides try and play better football than he did. He actually made good players look poor, and poor players look dreadful. As for his sidekick..... That's for another day!!!

[Smartie]

Calderwood really was rank yes. But I honestly believe Butcher's tactics and training styles was worse. I wanted him as well and was delighted when we got him but after hearing the horror stories of him pinning a player up against the wall and screaming his head off (maybe that was needed at times) but he really zapped all confidence out the players.

People refer to ICT but that's just one season he done well was it not? he relegated them as well. His record under almost every other team he's been at is brutal. We could go round in circles all day about who is worse but thankfully we seem to have finally landed ourselves a good hungry young manager. If he gets us up first time of asking then for me he's worked miracles.

Fair point, I think it is old ground now and I don't know what can be achieved going over it again. Butcher and Calderwood were undoubtedly both poor, prob not much to be gained debating who was worse.

Absolutely 100% agree about where we are now and that is the most important thing. Great credit to him for getting where we are now bearing in mind where we were. Still a long, long way to go though.

[Thecat23]

Fair point, I think it is old ground now and I don't know what can be achieved going over it again. Butcher and Calderwood were undoubtedly both poor, prob not much to be gained debating who was worse.

Absolutely 100% agree about where we are now and that is the most important thing. Great credit to him for getting where we are now bearing in mind where we were. Still a long, long way to go though.

Yeah still have a lot of work to do but we are doing it right for once and playing good football as well as winning! Long may it continue 👍

[PeeJay]

You're joking PeeJay Aye?? You would seriously want to watch that eye bleeding excuse for football again? Never In a million years would I want to watch that kind of pish at Easter road again even in the top league. And of course "everything" that was wrong with Hibs wasn't his fault but the football on a match day certainly was. I have seen Lowland League sides try and play better football than he did. He actually made good players look poor, and poor players look dreadful. As for his sidekick..... That's for another day!!!

Well, I'd prefer to be in the top flight - that's the gist of my argument I guess, Butcher or no Butcher - I don't care how much people enjoy the football on show in the Championship or the Highland or Lowland league - I'm embarrassed we're in this league and by the fact that we are only "maybe" going to escape at the first time of asking ...

[Borderhibbie76]

Deffo Stubbs for me...even if it means a season(maybe 2at most) down here. Its enjoyable watching Hibs again, the players are totally buying into Stubbs philosophy and im more than hopeful we can get up via the Play offs. IMO Stubbs has performed miracles in 6months and if he gets us up first time...freedom of leith for me. Id prefer this over Butcher, Malpas and that dross we suffered last year any day of the week.

[Steve20]

Premier league. There's no guarantee we'll win the playoffs and another season in this league would be terrible.

Ideally, in the Premier league with a better manager than Butcher.

[PeeJay]

Sorry if I picked you up wrong then, fair do's if you would prefer Butcher and top flight football.

I prefer the football on offer just now and like night and day to be honest. Not being smart or that but do you get over for many games? If so what do you think of us this season so far? The overhaul first and foremost was needed in the dugout. Proper investment in the way we do things not just on a sat but in training how we scout players and how we treat the kids coming through. All were flagging under Butcher and malpass.

As for the board yes 100% agree that far to many are still there and I'd have liked to see a lot more changes there. :agree:

Don't get over for many games - watch as many as poss. on Hibs TV (and elswhere...) - I'm disappointed with the season, I had hoped we would be leading the other clubs instead of playing catch up with the two clubs that seemed to be suffering the most these past few seasons - just adds to the general embarrassment of it all for me ... there certainly seems to be a better vibe at ER these days - we really need to be promoted at the end of the season though - Anyway, looks like the run in is going to be very interesting: no bad thing for the league.

[madhatter]

Stubbs in championship any day. I went to all home games last season and Butcher (apart from 4-5 games) had us playing the most boring, horrible, soul-destroying football.

Being in championship isn't great for finances but in terms of football, top half of championship is as good as bottom six in spfl. Sadly those fans who expected us to be 1st in this league and running away with it must not know full extent of damage (dire state at club). I do not profess to know it myself but from what I hear training standards for years had been pretty poor; players continually brought in on long term deals or short term loans which, no matter the case, always seemed to be in the worst interest of the club;no major breakthroughs from the youth for years (large proportions released on annual basis). I could go on all day.
It would have been nice to have been ahead of Rangers, but in terms of Hearts, they had 1 year of planning for championship, they had 1 year of relying on youngsters, they had 1 year to gradually phase in change (most of it was in place by the time LD was in post).
We're running behind due to the past. I will happily pay for my ST in championship next season if it meant we eventually came up a strong club with an impressive youth etc.

[3pm]

after hearing the horror stories of him pinning a player up against the wall and screaming his head off (maybe that was needed at times).

The player should have got him done.

Amazing what football managers get away with. In any other workplace...

[lyonhibs]

If the squad that Butcher hypothetically would have in the SPL was as gash and the style of football so grim, then (although this is not a preference for the Championship god knows, more swallowing a bitter pill for the longer term good of the club) I would have to say Stubbs in the Championship.

Assuming the much vaunted summer clearout of the players that Butcher had correctly - if excessively vocally by all accounts - identified as utter pish actually occured and a proper rebuilding job had happened, then I'd say Butcher in the SPL.

[LancsHibs]

Found that a hard question to quantify. In the end I voted Butcher in the SPL. It's not that I'm unhappy with Stubbsy, I'm very pleased with what he's doing and the way we are progressing and there is no comparison between him and that nob Butcher but relegation was sooo bad, embarrassing and heartbreaking! Like others have said Butcher would have been sacked early doors anyway so on that I would gave prefered to have stayed up and got rid of Butcher soon after.