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CallumLaidlaw
22-01-2015, 02:56 PM
Simple question. Out of the 3 fans groups on the go, who do you, or who are you likely to support?

Benny Brazil
22-01-2015, 03:05 PM
Its a no brainer out of that list

jacomo
22-01-2015, 03:39 PM
On a phone so cannae vote. But stick me on for HSL. The other two have discredited themselves with unfounded and ridiculous allegations about asset stripping which I can't really look past.

Pretty Boy
22-01-2015, 03:42 PM
HSL.

I was initially supportive of BuyHibs and thought, generally speaking, it was a decent idea poorly presented and badly timed. The HSL scheme makes it somewhat obsolete imo. The less said about HOH the better.

Steve20
22-01-2015, 03:44 PM
None of them are convincing at all. But what we have at the moment can't continue. So I am really unsure where we go from here.

kaimendhibs
22-01-2015, 04:09 PM
HSL for me

Lucius Apuleius
22-01-2015, 04:10 PM
On the phone as well. No brainer. HSL

Baldy Foghorn
22-01-2015, 04:16 PM
Unsure of HSL at this juncture. Need much more information before I decide, AGM should be interesting......

schinkenotto
22-01-2015, 05:23 PM
No brainer- HSL.BuyHibs are clearly well intentioned but as someone else has said have been superseded by HSL.

HoH have been appalling in almost every respect with their unfounded allegations and smear tactics and if anyone remotely connected with them gets near my Club,my 50 year association with the Club will regrettably come to an end.

erin go bragh
22-01-2015, 06:52 PM
No brainer for me HSL . On my phone . I think its time that buyhibs and hoh ( who after all are Hibs fans) got behind the HSL . United we stand and all that .

Ggtth

Ringothedog
22-01-2015, 07:29 PM
HSL are not a pressure group. They are the vehicle through which Hibernian fans can bring the club into fan ownership. The other 2 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever as they do not have the money,plans or backing of the majority of fans. The share plan put forward by the club is not perfect by any means but it is the only viable option. We either back it and help the club go forward in a positive way or we keep the status quo and keep sniping from the sidelines with very little say in how our club is run. The choice is ours.

MB62
22-01-2015, 07:50 PM
Right at this moment in time, I'm more inclined to increase my shareholding on a personal basis as I'm not convinced I want to spend my hard earned then give it some other group to decide how they use my vote, which is how I see the HSL set up. However, I will be doing a bit more reading of the situation and that opinion could change, HSL would be my only other option.

Ozyhibby
22-01-2015, 07:57 PM
HSL without a shadow of doubt.
BuyHibs was a decent idea but HSL provides the same thing without the poor delivery.
HoH are attention seeking children.

emerald green
22-01-2015, 08:01 PM
HSL are not a pressure group. They are the vehicle through which Hibernian fans can bring the club into fan ownership. The other 2 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever as they do not have the money,plans or backing of the majority of fans. The share plan put forward by the club is not perfect by any means but it is the only viable option. We either back it and help the club go forward in a positive way or we keep the status quo and keep sniping from the sidelines with very little say in how our club is run. The choice is ours.

:agree: Well said. HSL is the way to go. No doubt about it in my mind.

Onion
22-01-2015, 08:21 PM
No issue with any groups asking pokey, awkward questions, relevant or not. The level of distrust in Petrie and the Hibs Board is such that they deserve sceptical scrutiny and need to work much harder to rebuild trust following the last 7 shambolic years. I'm a soft touch when it comes to Hibs, but remain unconvinced by what I've heard so far. Still too many unanswered questions.

bigwheel
22-01-2015, 08:23 PM
Two are irrelevant nonentities , through their actions , no one else's ...

Eyrie
22-01-2015, 08:50 PM
HSL has the interests of both club and supporters at heart, and a decent idea although the devil will be in the detail.

BuyHibs was well intentioned, but poorly thought out.

Can anything positive be said about HOH?

pontius pilate
22-01-2015, 08:52 PM
HSL for me

Just Alf
22-01-2015, 08:52 PM
HSL no question .... A while back BuyHibs were really in with a shout of bringing us all together then for some reason they imploded, if they'd screwed the nut and been constructive who knows where they might have been now?... Maybe even have representation on HSL, who knows.... Shot themselves in the foot big time as far as I'm concerned.

As for HoH, words fail me so I'll stop right there.



GGTTH!

:flag:

Hibbyradge
22-01-2015, 09:10 PM
HSL obviously. The other two have no plan, no strategy and no tactics.

Huffy tantrums don't qualify.

I'll vote later.

Ringothedog
22-01-2015, 09:16 PM
HSL obviously. The other two have no plan, no strategy and no tactics.

Huffy tantrums don't qualify.

I'll vote later.

That sounds a lot like our previous manager

Hiber-nation
22-01-2015, 09:52 PM
No issue with any groups asking pokey, awkward questions, relevant or not. The level of distrust in Petrie and the Hibs Board is such that they deserve sceptical scrutiny and need to work much harder to rebuild trust following the last 7 shambolic years. I'm a soft touch when it comes to Hibs, but remain unconvinced by what I've heard so far. Still too many unanswered questions.

I agree. BuyHibs have little credibility and the other lot are just farcical but I'm still not 100% sure about HSL.

I'm a bit wary about nailing my colours to the mast on anything Hibs-related these days.

Kaiserclem
22-01-2015, 10:04 PM
No brainer- HSL.BuyHibs are clearly well intentioned but as someone else has said have been superseded by HSL.

HoH have been appalling in almost every respect with their unfounded allegations and smear tactics and if anyone remotely connected with them gets near my Club,my 50 year association with the Club will regrettably come to an end.

I agree, imagine HOH firstly thinking of a plan but getting anywhere near our club. Crowds lf a few hundred would be a certainty. No idea why they even exist, apart from a publicity tool for someone who calls themselves a fan of our club. I mean, the HOH leader couldn't even read his email right for the first fans consultation meeting at ER and instead turned up 1 hour late shouting and holding up banners. Quickly asked to leave by the real fans in the meeting who were there to discuss our club in real terms with LD. And he wants us to listen to HOH? Absolute joke and HOH should be told to GTF by the real fans. Disgraceful my club even has spoken to this guy and HOH.

lucky
22-01-2015, 10:10 PM
HSL all the way but we do need more answers. BuyHibs is like the daft wee brother of HSL, similar in thought but no idea how to get there. HoH are not in the equation they are the Lib Dems of this whole process

Benny Brazil
22-01-2015, 10:13 PM
HSL all the way but we do need more answers. BuyHibs is like the daft wee brother of HSL, similar in thought but no idea how to get there. HoH are not in the equation they are the Lib Dems of this whole process

More like the Monster Raving Loony Party.

Hibby D
22-01-2015, 10:19 PM
HSL are not a pressure group. They are the vehicle through which Hibernian fans can bring the club into fan ownership. The other 2 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever as they do not have the money,plans or backing of the majority of fans. The share plan put forward by the club is not perfect by any means but it is the only viable option. We either back it and help the club go forward in a positive way or we keep the status quo and keep sniping from the sidelines with very little say in how our club is run. The choice is ours.

:agree:

And for that reason it's HSL for me.

NAE NOOKIE
22-01-2015, 11:08 PM
I voted none of them because I intend to try to buy shares directly from the club. If that proves too problematic I will go for the HSL option.

Peevemor
22-01-2015, 11:11 PM
HSL. BuyHibs started OK, probably with the best of intentions, but quickly lost credibility. HoH - don't make me laugh (and they don't)!

CallumLaidlaw
23-01-2015, 10:34 AM
Interesting. 3 votes for HoH and BuyHibs combined, from nearly 150 votes. Wonder if any papers will report this, rather than focus on their negative viewpoint.

CropleyWasGod
23-01-2015, 11:05 AM
None of them.

I'm sofistikated. :cb

Ozyhibby
23-01-2015, 11:33 AM
Interesting. 3 votes for HoH and BuyHibs combined, from nearly 150 votes. Wonder if any papers will report this, rather than focus on their negative viewpoint.

If someone takes it to them I'm sure they would.

H18S NX
23-01-2015, 11:39 AM
I voted none of them,i'll wait till the agm before putting my money in.

greenginger
25-01-2015, 12:51 PM
Interesting. 3 votes for HoH and BuyHibs combined, from nearly 150 votes. Wonder if any papers will report this, rather than focus on their negative viewpoint.


Just finished reading two pages of HoH and Buyhibs bile in Saturdays's daily Mail.

The HSL Board should be on to these so called journalists with this pole result , and a few other home truths about these failed ventures in ego building.

ManBearPig
25-01-2015, 01:41 PM
None for me. Not sold on fan ownership although if any it would have to be HSL. Had dealings with the HOH at turnstiles and they were shambolic and full of bull. Buy hibs just gave the impression they were poorly organised. Although only ever heard the podcast so hard to judge by that.

CallumLaidlaw
28-01-2015, 09:14 AM
Bump

skipster7
28-01-2015, 10:08 AM
HSL for me, by far the best and most credible option imo, although i would like my own share certificate so will probably get the minimum privately just for that.
HOH are behaving like spoilt kids lashing out when they don't get what they want. embarrassing :rolleyes:

marinello59
28-01-2015, 04:53 PM
The Poll results so far don't seem to reflect the picture being painted by the press. Anybody still want to vote?

Cabbage Lad
28-01-2015, 05:14 PM
HSL for me. The other two are an embarrassment!! A complete minority which the media love to give exposure to. Baffling.

NAE NOOKIE
28-01-2015, 07:04 PM
Never got the letter from Hibs. E Mailed the club last Friday using the E Mail address on the official site ..... Its now Wednesday and still nothing.

matty_f
28-01-2015, 07:09 PM
I voted for HSL, interesting to see that there are only 3 (three) people that voted for HoH and BuyHibs combined.

CallumLaidlaw
29-01-2015, 10:47 AM
I voted for HSL, interesting to see that there are only 3 (three) people that voted for HoH and BuyHibs combined.

Certainly is Matty. Yet Paul Kane says fans are split 50/50 :confused:

Global Hibby
29-01-2015, 11:41 AM
Simple question. Out of the 3 fans groups on the go, who do you, or who are you likely to support?

Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

Mikey
29-01-2015, 11:42 AM
Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

You know the answer to those questions as you were at many of the meetings.

Benny Brazil
29-01-2015, 11:45 AM
Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

Hmm what a suprise you should re-appear.

Global Hibby
29-01-2015, 11:47 AM
Hmm what a suprise you should re-appear.

Do you know the answer to my questions Benny ?

what do you mean by reappear ?

Benny Brazil
29-01-2015, 11:51 AM
Do you know the answer to my questions Benny ?

what do you mean by reappear ?

You disappeared from the this board for a number of months during which certain things were going on to do with the club - and now your back.
And no I dont know the answers and to be honest dont care. HSL is the vehicle which Hibs fans will be paying money into to buy shares in the club.
Will you be joining HSL?

Slim Shady
29-01-2015, 11:55 AM
No brainer- HSL.BuyHibs are clearly well intentioned but as someone else has said have been superseded by HSL.

HoH have been appalling in almost every respect with their unfounded allegations and smear tactics and if anyone remotely connected with them gets near my Club,my 50 year association with the Club will regrettably come to an end.

Not a supporter of any of the 3 but where does HOH state they want to take ownership of the club. Never seen or heard anything regarding them wanting to be involved in the ownership. Are they involved with one of the other groups who bid (wanted club for nowt)

Global Hibby
29-01-2015, 11:58 AM
You disappeared from the this board for a number of months during which certain things were going on to do with the club - and now your back.
And no I dont know the answers and to be honest dont care. HSL is the vehicle which Hibs fans will be paying money into to buy shares in the club.
Will you be joining HSL?

Benny, like you, I am a Hibs supporter that wants to make a difference. I would like the solution to be one that deals with root cause and not just treat a re-occurring symptom. I am in the undecided camp at the moment and the questions i ask will help me to decide.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Global Hibby
29-01-2015, 12:01 PM
You know the answer to those questions as you were at many of the meetings.

I attended "one " meeting at the HS club Mikey and what other meetings are you saying I attended ? Are you able to answer the questions for me ?

marinello59
29-01-2015, 12:07 PM
Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

I take it you have some sympathy with Paul Kane's line that the thing wrong with the HSL scheme is that the fans are not running it 100% from the start. If only his BuyHibs group had talked to the club, they could have been the vehicle as LD said last week.
Does it matter how the vehicle gets started, what matters is that the journey ends in the right place. If 51% fan ownership is your thing then this could well be a journey you could join in with.
Apologies if my assumption is wrong.

blackpoolhibs
29-01-2015, 12:11 PM
Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

With all the confusion on who is who, and who supports what? Are you the fella who was prepared to put up £1m and £20k a month? :confused:

CallumLaidlaw
29-01-2015, 12:32 PM
Not a supporter of any of the 3 but where does HOH state they want to take ownership of the club. Never seen or heard anything regarding them wanting to be involved in the ownership. Are they involved with one of the other groups who bid (wanted club for nowt)

They are campaigning for Farmer to "hand the club back to the community".

marinello59
29-01-2015, 12:35 PM
They are campaigning for Farmer to "hand the club back to the community".

If only they could define what that actually means.

IanM
29-01-2015, 12:35 PM
just on a side note - has anyone else still not received anyhing through the post from Hibs about the share options?

is there anyone i can contact?

CallumLaidlaw
29-01-2015, 12:36 PM
If only they could define what that actually means.

Suppose they would need to know themselves.

jacomo
29-01-2015, 12:37 PM
Benny, like you, I am a Hibs supporter that wants to make a difference. I would like the solution to be one that deals with root cause and not just treat a re-occurring symptom. I am in the undecided camp at the moment and the questions i ask will help me to decide.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

It's clear that the current owner of Hibs has decided to take a managed and controlled approach to fan ownership. He has now set a valuation for the club and the method for handing over control - I am sure you now have the facts available to make an informed choice.

It is also clear that this has the potential for unstoppable momentum. 51% of the club is on offer to Hibs fans, and that 51% will have a genuine voice. I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion??

blackpoolhibs
29-01-2015, 12:40 PM
It's clear that the current owner of Hibs has decided to take a managed and controlled approach to fan ownership. He has now set a valuation for the club and the method for handing over control - I am sure you now have the facts available to make an informed choice.

It is also clear that this has the potential for unstoppable momentum. 51% of the club is on offer to Hibs fans, and that 51% will have a genuine voice. I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion??

They want given the club for nothing, thats the only offer they'd accept.

jacomo
29-01-2015, 12:44 PM
They want given the club for nothing, thats the only offer they'd accept.

The only offer they can afford? :dunno:

CropleyWasGod
29-01-2015, 12:59 PM
Was HSL formed by directors of Hibernian FC ?

When did the the non Hibs Directors start dialogue with the Club ?

The answers to that are in the public domain.

HSL was formed by its founder members. One of them, Leeann Dempster, is a director of the club.

ALF TUPPER
29-01-2015, 01:06 PM
Hibs Supporters Ltd for me :flag:

blackpoolhibs
29-01-2015, 01:24 PM
The only offer they can afford? :dunno:

And what about the 50% that are against them? :greengrin

FranckSuzy
29-01-2015, 01:52 PM
just on a side note - has anyone else still not received anyhing through the post from Hibs about the share options?

is there anyone i can contact?

You can try and email Shares@hibernianfc.co.uk :greengrin

silverhibee
29-01-2015, 02:16 PM
You can try and email Shares@hibernianfc.co.uk :greengrin


And even folk who have contacted that email address are still waiting on a reply.

How f***ing hard was it to send a letter to each person on the data base regards the share issue.

Turning in to another own goal. :greengrin

This should have been the one thing they had to get right, and they haven't, what about folk that haven't had a letter and don't know about the email address that no one responds too, folk will just see this as a "balls up" (not a quote from last night :greengrin) Hibs need to get this sorted very soon regards to who they have and haven't sent letters out to and the ones they haven't sent out should get it done promptly, do they even no who they have sent letters out to as it seems a bigger % are still waiting for the share letter.

One of the biggest things to have come out of the club for years to help the club and they seem to have failed by getting info out to folk on the data base through sending out letters, how hard could it have been.

FranckSuzy
29-01-2015, 10:44 PM
And even folk who have contacted that email address are still waiting on a reply.

How f***ing hard was it to send a letter to each person on the data base regards the share issue.

Turning in to another own goal. :greengrin

This should have been the one thing they had to get right, and they haven't, what about folk that haven't had a letter and don't know about the email address that no one responds too, folk will just see this as a "balls up" (not a quote from last night :greengrin) Hibs need to get this sorted very soon regards to who they have and haven't sent letters out to and the ones they haven't sent out should get it done promptly, do they even no who they have sent letters out to as it seems a bigger % are still waiting for the share letter.

One of the biggest things to have come out of the club for years to help the club and they seem to have failed by getting info out to folk on the data base through sending out letters, how hard could it have been.

I did highlight the 'try' bit :greengrin

Dashing Bob S
29-01-2015, 11:59 PM
Strange question. Surely whether or not to invest in the club is a personal decision. It certainly shouldn't be indicative of support for any individuals or group. They may influence you, but you have to make sure that it's you who influences your wallet.

ACLeith
30-01-2015, 07:25 AM
And even folk who have contacted that email address are still waiting on a reply.

How f***ing hard was it to send a letter to each person on the data base regards the share issue.

Turning in to another own goal. :greengrin

This should have been the one thing they had to get right, and they haven't, what about folk that haven't had a letter and don't know about the email address that no one responds too, folk will just see this as a "balls up" (not a quote from last night :greengrin) Hibs need to get this sorted very soon regards to who they have and haven't sent letters out to and the ones they haven't sent out should get it done promptly, do they even no who they have sent letters out to as it seems a bigger % are still waiting for the share letter.

One of the biggest things to have come out of the club for years to help the club and they seem to have failed by getting info out to folk on the data base through sending out letters, how hard could it have been.

When I didn't receive the letter, I didn't immediately assume it was a screw-up by the club on the selection criteria for issuing it, it might have gone astray in Royal Mail. I am receiving it as a ST holder and 2 family members in the same situation received theirs last Saturday, which pushed me towards the latter reason. I E-Mailed the address on Sunday but nothing yet appeared. I know it's been a busy week for the club, but even an automated acknowledgement would have been helpful.

I have seen the letter through the family members, but if nothing appears by the time of the launch then I'll try contacting them a different way.

The Falcon
30-01-2015, 07:44 AM
They want given the club for nothing, thats the only offer they'd accept.

Yet they tell us they don't want to own the club. Or run it.

It seems they only want to tell other people how to do so (because they have worl renowned experts on board) and any future owner/operator should know that they have to meet this group(s) expectations or they will be publicly slandered like STF.

They are no better than the playground bully.

B.Wilson
30-01-2015, 09:11 AM
Yet they tell us they don't want to own the club. Or run it.

It seems they only want to tell other people how to do so (because they have worl renowned experts on board) and any future owner/operator should know that they have to meet this group(s) expectations or they will be publicly slandered like STF.

They are no better than the playground bully.

nobody is being forced to subscribe to HSL,it is a personal choice,i will be subscribe to them even although I still want to personally buy my own shares, but until I know how to go about that and how much it will cost me this is the way I will do it,

NAE NOOKIE
30-01-2015, 02:19 PM
When I didn't receive the letter, I didn't immediately assume it was a screw-up by the club on the selection criteria for issuing it, it might have gone astray in Royal Mail. I am receiving it as a ST holder and 2 family members in the same situation received theirs last Saturday, which pushed me towards the latter reason. I E-Mailed the address on Sunday but nothing yet appeared. I know it's been a busy week for the club, but even an automated acknowledgement would have been helpful.

I have seen the letter through the family members, but if nothing appears by the time of the launch then I'll try contacting them a different way.

On non receipt I E Mailed the club a week ago and still nothing. Does anybody know if a copy of the letter and any enclosed forms can be picked up from the club shop or ticket office tomorrow?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 03:38 PM
With all the confusion on who is who, and who supports what? Are you the fella who was prepared to put up £1m and £20k a month? :confused:

Yes Blackpoolhibs, i am that fella who was prepared to help a united fan movement with 1m and 20k per month.

Baldy Foghorn
30-01-2015, 03:51 PM
Yes Blackpoolhibs, i am that fella who was prepared to help a united fan movement with 1m and 20k per month.

Richard? Are you for or against the new share issue proposal?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 04:15 PM
Richard? Are you for or against the new share issue proposal?

i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.

blackpoolhibs
30-01-2015, 04:16 PM
Yes Blackpoolhibs, i am that fella who was prepared to help a united fan movement with 1m and 20k per month.


Richard? Are you for or against the new share issue proposal?

Thanks Richard, Brockie has asked my next question. :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
30-01-2015, 04:18 PM
i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.

RP said the annual debt repayment was similar to what was being already paid, and with reduction of depreciation/amortisation, the net change was negligible

CallumLaidlaw
30-01-2015, 04:19 PM
i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.

You must have a different set of figures to the rest of us if that is the case.

blackpoolhibs
30-01-2015, 04:20 PM
i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.

How is it an increase in the annual debt repayments, i thought the repayments were roughly the same? And with the debt reduction plus no interest its clear to me its a win win situation in my book?

Will you invest in this scheme Richard?

Baldy Foghorn
30-01-2015, 04:20 PM
Thanks Richard, Brockie has asked my next question. :greengrin

I can read your mind BH:wink:

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 04:21 PM
i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.

They haven't.

Debt repayments in the 2014 accounts, including capital and interest, were approximately £504k. They have been running at that approximate level for a number of years.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4287706]They haven't.

Debt repayments in the 2014 accounts, including capital and interest, were approximately £504k. They have been running at that approximate level for a number of

How much of the 504 number went to STF ?

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;4287706]They haven't.

Debt repayments in the 2014 accounts, including capital and interest, were approximately £504k. They have been running at that approximate level for a number of

How much of the 504 number went to STF ?

Nothing.

And none went to HFC Holdings either.

Those figures are based on the repayments on the bank loan.

greenginger
30-01-2015, 04:30 PM
i am in favour of a share issue.

I think Hibernian is in need of cash to aid the recovery program on and off the field. I am pretty well convinced that with LD and AS plus others, there is a team in place that will be successful with the correct level of shareholder backing. That backing is both financial and being allowed to get on with developing they club.


A share issue should be underwritten either by the existing shareholders or new shareholders coming in, as the club needs funds.

I do find it even more stranger that many Hibs fans on .net are supportive of an "increase" in the annual debt repayment going forward or maybe this has slipped by unnoticed.

I also find it even stranger that the existing shareholders have proposed an increase in annual debt repayments.


Where do you get this increase in annual debt repayment from ?

This year we have a repayment holiday. Previous years,

2014 bank interest £ 133,106 bank repayment £ 371,189 Total £ 504,295

2013 " £ 142,952 " £ 372,241 Total £ 515,193

The annual debt repayments have not increased. All the money going out reduces the capital sum owed, nothing goes in interest.

Do you have a problem with companies that pay their debts ?

marinello59
30-01-2015, 04:33 PM
How much of the 504 number went to STF ?

Anybody else see where he is going with this? At least Global is transparent. :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
30-01-2015, 04:39 PM
Anybody else see where he is going with this? At least Global is transparent. :greengrin

:agree: I promise to donate £2m and £40 grand a month as long as STF gives back the money he stole from selling the car park. :wink:

Kaiser1962
30-01-2015, 04:45 PM
How much of the 504 number went to STF ?


How much do you think went to STF?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 04:51 PM
How is it an increase in the annual debt repayments, i thought the repayments were roughly the same? And with the debt reduction plus no interest its clear to me its a win win situation in my book?

Will you invest in this scheme Richard?

To get the correct picture on debt repayments.....one has to break down the debt into the variance elements.....bank, shareholders loans etc and then look at the repayment schedules against those and compare the proposed new to the old.

Its easy to say its roughly the same number for SPIN purposes but i don't agree with it...i believe its costing the club more.

I also think a shareholders job is to put cash in real money terms into what they believe in......as far as i can see the shareholders keep providing loans and not real cash.

The debt was created by the shareholders and i feel those shareholders should take responsibility for the debt created by mismanagement. Having that sitting as loans in my opinion is wrong and is detrimental to the club.

That number appears to be circa £3m of the £5.

Others on here might disagree with my viewpoint and thats fine.

I will invest something but not sure how much to answer your question.

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 04:54 PM
To get the correct picture on debt repayments.....one has to break down the debt into the variance elements.....bank, shareholders loans etc and then look at the repayment schedules against those and compare the proposed new to the old.

Its easy to say its roughly the same number for SPIN purposes but i don't agree with it...i believe its costing the club more.

I also think a shareholders job is to put cash in real money terms into what they believe in......as far as i can see the shareholders keep providing loans and not real cash.

The debt was created by the shareholders and i feel those shareholders should take responsibility for the debt created by mismanagement. Having that sitting as loans in my opinion is wrong and is detrimental to the club.

That number appears to be circa £3m of the £5.

Others on here might disagree with my viewpoint and thats fine.

I will invest something but not sure how much to answer your question.

What is the basis for your belief?

The facts, as presented in the accounts, are there to be seen. The cash that we spent on the bank loan is as has been stated, broken down into interest and capital.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:01 PM
:agree: I promise to donate £2m and £40 grand a month as long as STF gives back the money he stole from selling the car park. :wink:

STF has stolen no money from Hibernian.......

i hear about all this car park money.....its to late in the day to question those kind of things.

All i want to see is AS and LD given the funds to get Hibs to where they belong....am unconvinced that the funds will be provided in this solution.

marinello59
30-01-2015, 05:10 PM
STF has stolen no money from Hibernian.......

i hear about all this car park money.....its to late in the day to question those kind of things.

All i want to see is AS and LD given the funds to get Hibs to where they belong....am unconvinced that the funds will be provided in this solution.

Did you think the BuyHibs model was flawed as well then given that HSL isn't that different to what BuyHibs were offering?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:10 PM
What is the basis for your belief?

The facts, as presented in the accounts, are there to be seen. The cash that we spent on the bank loan is as has been stated, broken down into interest and capital.

The documented facts are my belief.......

its clear to see the repayments to the bank.

its easy to recalculate what the new number should be over a ten year interest free loan and its less than 200k pa......thats a lot less than 500k pa.

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 05:14 PM
The documented facts are my belief.......

its clear to see the repayments to the bank.

its easy to recalculate what the new number should be over a ten year interest free loan and its less than 200k pa......thats a lot less than 500k pa.

How do you get to £200k pa interest free, over 10 years, on a bank loan that was sitting at approximately £6.3m?

Are you forgetting about the balloon payments?

(and these aren't the costs of the HOH stunt the other night, btw :greengrin)

marinello59
30-01-2015, 05:16 PM
The documented facts are my belief.......

its clear to see the repayments to the bank.

its easy to recalculate what the new number should be over a ten year interest free loan and its less than 200k pa......thats a lot less than 500k pa.

I think you should look at your arithmetic there.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:18 PM
Did you think the BuyHibs model was flawed as well then given that HSL isn't that different to what BuyHibs were offering?

You know what is sad Marinello......is the division......if .net could lead the way and get the various groups to find out the areas we " all agree on " that would be a great start.

Then we can put aside the difficult conversation areas and have a joined up approach to the objectives we all agree.

The financial model required for a sustainable long term future has not been provided by anyone so far.....that includes the current shareholders.

I think the buys hibs model and the hsl model provide a foundation to build from.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:19 PM
I think you should look at your arithmetic there.
Please correct me as am on a train on mobile device

what is the number ?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:23 PM
How do you get to £200k pa interest free, over 10 years, on a bank loan that was sitting at approximately £6.3m?

Are you forgetting about the balloon payments?

(and these aren't the costs of the HOH stunt the other night, btw :greengrin)

Not forgetting the balloon payements Cropley........i simply took the bank settlement number added a bit and divided it by ten years.

Barney McGrew
30-01-2015, 05:25 PM
if .net could lead the way and get the various groups to find out the areas we " all agree on " that would be a great start.

It's not Hibs.net place to do that, all we do is create a forum for Hibs supporters to discuss topics about our club. And that will continue, despite the pot shots that some of the groups have at us.

Why don't you lead the way to do it, you've been vocal on the subject all the way through this?

marinello59
30-01-2015, 05:28 PM
You know what is sad Marinello......is the division......if .net could lead the way and get the various groups to find out the areas we " all agree on " that would be a great start.

Then we can put aside the difficult conversation areas and have a joined up approach to the objectives we all agree.

The financial model required for a sustainable long term future has not been provided by anyone so far.....that includes the current shareholders.

I think the buys hibs model and the hsl model provide a foundation to build from.

All we do here is provide a platform for Hibs fans of all viewpoints to have their say and as such we don't act as fan leaders or spokespeople. That doesn't stop some having a go at us because they don't like what they read here but we really have no editorial policy or stance. It's up to the members here to make up their own minds.
I agree about the divisions, it is frustrating, particularly when there is no need. We managed to decide the future of our nation with much less vitriol then some are throwing about regarding the future of our football club.

Sioux
30-01-2015, 05:31 PM
I also think a shareholders job is to put cash in real money terms into what they believe in......as far as i can see the shareholders keep providing loans and not real cash.


Really? A shareholder is usually someone who invests in a company with a view to benefit, either through dividends out of profit or by a return of capital via a sale of his shares when the shares have achieved a value increase.

Do you suggest that, for example, the trustees of my pension provider should plough money into those large companies of which they are shareholder, in circumstances where the company may be going through periods of downturn (temporary), with no guarantee of return, thus depleting the value of the fund for the members?

I'm sure that if the trustees did act in such a way they would be in breach and probably liable on a personal basis for the pension fund loss.

I think you need to take off your shining white armour and cease with the pretence. A shareholder does not have a 'job' in his capacity as shareholder.

CropleyWasGod
30-01-2015, 05:32 PM
Not forgetting the balloon payements Cropley........i simply took the bank settlement number added a bit and divided it by ten years.
Don't follow that logic.

1. If the settlement was 1.8m, it was for immediate settlement. It couldn't be repaid over 10 years at no interest

2. You're forgetting about the, at least, 3m due to the holding company.

Andy74
30-01-2015, 05:32 PM
Did you think the BuyHibs model was flawed as well then given that HSL isn't that different to what BuyHibs were offering?

It's very different. Cash would have gone to existing owners not funding the club. What would their plan for the debt have been? Large outside investors were talked about as was interest or dividends out of the club.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:33 PM
It's not Hibs.net place to do that, all we do is create a forum for Hibs supporters to discuss topics about our club. And that will continue, despite the pot shots that some of the groups have at us.

Why don't you lead the way to do it, you've been vocal on the subject all the way through this?

I thought i had been very quiet on the subject for many months lol

I will give some thought to your suggestion

Andy74
30-01-2015, 05:36 PM
Don't follow that logic.

1. If the settlement was 1.8m, it was for immediate settlement. It couldn't be repaid over 10 years at no interest

2. You're forgetting about the, at least, 3m due to the holding company.

If the settlement was £1.8m the holding company wod only be due £4.8m. They are due £9.5m before the equity swap.

Did Sir Tom not admit the other night he had provided the money to pay the bank what they were due. There was no talk of any big discount.

tamig
30-01-2015, 05:41 PM
If the settlement was £1.8m the holding company wod only be due £4.8m. They are due £9.5m before the equity swap.

Did Sir Tom not admit the other night he had provided the money to pay the bank what they were due. There was no talk of any big discount.

Did he not say he settled the bank debt, i.e., he paid what was agreed under the terms of the settlement? No indication that the full whack was settled - which as I've said several times before is not how Lloyds operate these days where football clubs are concerned.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 05:41 PM
Don't follow that logic.

1. If the settlement was 1.8m, it was for immediate settlement. It couldn't be repaid over 10 years at no interest

2. You're forgetting about the, at least, 3m due to the holding company.

1. If i am the shareholder and pay the bank 1.8m.....then why can't i have that being repaid to me over ten years ??

2, I did not forget about the loan to the holding company...i mention the 3m......my view is that the shareholders should have invested the 3m and not loaned it.

I think they should put aside the 3m loan repayment for five years if they are really genuine about the fans owning 51%

marinello59
30-01-2015, 05:42 PM
It's very different. Cash would have gone to existing owners not funding the club. What would their plan for the debt have been? Large outside investors were talked about as was interest or dividends out of the club.

Aye, basically HSL is a much improved version of BuyHibs with greater transparency. Which makes me all the more baffled that they codnt support this.
I don't think they really exist anymore now though.

grunt
30-01-2015, 05:46 PM
Not forgetting the balloon payements Cropley........i simply took the bank settlement number added a bit and divided it by ten years.
Have you forgotten about the £2.5m payment due in 2020?

Barney McGrew
30-01-2015, 05:49 PM
Aye, basically HSL is a much improved version of BuyHibs with greater transparency. Which makes me all the more baffled that they codnt support this.
I don't think they really exist anymore now though.

My view is that Buy Hibs model would have had two or three people at its head who would have invested larger sums of money, and would have effectively have been in control of the club.

HSL doesn't seem to make any nod to how much you spend, it's still one person one vote so it's much more difficult for those with access to larger amounts of money to have influence.

That may well be the difference in why one model doesn't have the support of some of the players in this.

grunt
30-01-2015, 05:51 PM
I think the buys hibs model ... provide a foundation to build from.
Can you please explain what the BuyHibs model is? How does it differ to the HSL model? Is the only difference that under the BuyHibs model you expect STF to gift the club £3m?

Andy74
30-01-2015, 05:56 PM
1. If i am the shareholder and pay the bank 1.8m.....then why can't i have that being repaid to me over ten years ??

2, I did not forget about the loan to the holding company...i mention the 3m......my view is that the shareholders should have invested the 3m and not loaned it.

I think they should put aside the 3m loan repayment for five years if they are really genuine about the fans owning 51%

Why? I think you miss that it was £9.5m they were due and they have agreed to that being £5m interest free instead.

The oaymenrs are no more than we pay now. It has no impact on the fans owning 51 per cent if they want.

Barney McGrew
30-01-2015, 05:57 PM
Are you saying that the HSL model doesn't pander to the lust for power that those with more money to spend would appear to require? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

The HSL model certainly seems to be very democratic.

I'll let people draw their own conclusions on how that fits in with a lust for power that some may have :greengrin

grunt
30-01-2015, 05:58 PM
The HSL model certainly seems to be very democratic.

I'll let people draw their own conclusions on how that fits in with a lust for power that some may have :greengrinThanks - I had initially deleted my post as I wasn't happy that it said what I wanted, but you have correctly interpreted it.

blackpoolhibs
30-01-2015, 06:01 PM
1. If i am the shareholder and pay the bank 1.8m.....then why can't i have that being repaid to me over ten years ??

2, I did not forget about the loan to the holding company...i mention the 3m......my view is that the shareholders should have invested the 3m and not loaned it.

I think they should put aside the 3m loan repayment for five years if they are really genuine about the fans owning 51%

Disnae matter what you think now, its done and dusted and we have what we have. You can either invest or not, the same choice we all have now.

joe breezy
30-01-2015, 06:13 PM
Is this a real share issue?

Do you get share certificates?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 06:16 PM
Really? A shareholder is usually someone who invests in a company with a view to benefit, either through dividends out of profit or by a return of capital via a sale of his shares when the shares have achieved a value increase.

Do you suggest that, for example, the trustees of my pension provider should plough money into those large companies of which they are shareholder, in circumstances where the company may be going through periods of downturn (temporary), with no guarantee of return, thus depleting the value of the fund for the members?

I'm sure that if the trustees did act in such a way they would be in breach and probably liable on a personal basis for the pension fund loss.

I think you need to take off your shining white armour and cease with the pretence. A shareholder does not have a 'job' in his capacity as shareholder.

dropping down to personal comments like shinning white armour....just shows how limiting your ability is to debate !!

i am a shareholder in 15 companies across the globe.......i invested into those companies in real cash not loans. I believe my role as a role as shareholder is to make funds available at the appropriate time. Providing a loan to support losses is not what i call support and its fine you don't agree with that.

RP and STF are not trustees and nor are they managing any pension monies either, so no idea why that comes into your point.

I dont care about the trustees of your pension......... what i care about is Hibs having a sustainable financial model to enable AS and LD and their respective teams to provide the hibs support with a team that delivers success.

grunt
30-01-2015, 06:19 PM
what i care about is Hibs having a sustainable financial model to enable AS and LD and their respective teams to provide the hibs support with a team that delivers success.Can you please explain what in your view would be a sustainable financial model for Hibs, and in what way does your model differ from the plans set out by LD?

Pete
30-01-2015, 06:24 PM
Is this a real share issue?

Do you get share certificates?

Yes. You will get them or HSL will get them depending on which avenue you choose to go down.

It's not a share issue Savile style.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 08:56 PM
Can you please explain what the BuyHibs model is? How does it differ to the HSL model? Is the only difference that under the BuyHibs model you expect STF to gift the club £3m?

I will do a review of both models in more detail and give you my thoughts......In regard to Tom gifting 3m to the club.

My view is this........STF and RP made the decisions which resulted in the 3m number........am sure the majority of supporters would agree with this...........if you or I make a bad decision.....are we not responsible for that ? Or do we loan the money to ourselves and then expect someone else to pay it back to us ?

Its called paying for your mistakes and you pay for them in my opinion....you do not loan your way out of mistakes.

interested to hear your thoughts on that Grunt ?

Eyrie
30-01-2015, 09:13 PM
I will do a review of both models in more detail and give you my thoughts......In regard to Tom gifting 3m to the club.

My view is this........STF and RP made the decisions which resulted in the 3m number........am sure the majority of supporters would agree with this...........if you or I make a bad decision.....are we not responsible for that ? Or do we loan the money to ourselves and then expect someone else to pay it back to us ?

Its called paying for your mistakes and you pay for them in my opinion....you do not loan your way out of mistakes.

interested to hear your thoughts on that Grunt ?
Farmer has already effectively gifted £4.5m to the club by turning half of the £9m previously owed to the bank into shares, which will have very little value once diluted by the imminent share issue.

Ozyhibby
30-01-2015, 09:14 PM
If the settlement was £1.8m the holding company wod only be due £4.8m. They are due £9.5m before the equity swap.

Did Sir Tom not admit the other night he had provided the money to pay the bank what they were due. There was no talk of any big discount.

It took them 11 months to thrash out a deal with the bank. If STF had just paid it back with no discount then that would taken less than 11 seconds for the bank to agree.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 09:48 PM
Can you please explain what in your view would be a sustainable financial model for Hibs, and in what way does your model differ from the plans set out by LD?

Hibs need an immediate cash investment of 3.5m by my calculations to put it on solid foundation to go forward.
1.5m for working capital and 2m investment.

I am not talking about loans either.........shareholders loaning money to a football club is detrimental to the club and provides a noose around its neck. That is a major reason the club is in difficulty.

To my mind the fans additional money should be ring-fenced to make a measurable difference to the club........as an example.....why cant those funds just be used to enhance the first team squad only.

The shareholders existing and new proposed in the shape of HSL...should be underwriting the issue...they are not............Thats a great weakness in my opinion.

Once that foundation is in place....one is able to change the cultural and the current business model.....the current culture model is survival............the business model is driven on a cost managment model base.

Those need to be stopped...........Maybe then we will get to the root cause and stop the continual repetitive symptom treating approach of the last decade.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 09:54 PM
Farmer has already effectively gifted £4.5m to the club by turning half of the £9m previously owed to the bank into shares, which will have very little value once diluted by the imminent share issue.

That is not true re gifted the club 4.5 million.....

You clearly believe that to be the case and I think it is wrong for the current owners to represent it like this!

The bank wanted out of football...the debt was already written off by them when Rangers went bust. Anything they collected from the various clubs in Scotland was a bonus !

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 09:59 PM
It took them 11 months to thrash out a deal with the bank. If STF had just paid it back with no discount then that would taken less than 11 seconds for the bank to agree.

Was closer to 11 weeks actually

greenginger
30-01-2015, 10:04 PM
Hibs need an immediate cash investment of 3.5m by my calculations to put it on solid foundation to go forward.
1.5m for working capital and 2m investment.

I am not talking about loans either.........shareholders loaning money to a football club is detrimental to the club and provides a noose around its neck. That is a major reason the club is in difficulty.

To my mind the fans additional money should be ring-fenced to make a measurable difference to the club........as an example.....why cant those funds just be used to enhance the first team squad only.

The shareholders existing and new proposed in the shape of HSL...should be underwriting the issue...they are not............Thats a great weakness in my opinion.

Once that foundation is in place....one is able to change the cultural and the current business model.....the current culture model is survival............the business model is driven on a cost managment model base.

Those need to be stopped...........Maybe then we will get to the root cause and stop the continual repetitive symptom treating approach of the last decade.


First point , which shareholders are going to underwrite the new issue. I'm sure many will put in as much as they can reasonably afford. If they are forced to take up an extra tranch of unsold shares, that might put them off putting anything in.

Second, if you had been at the AGM the other night and listened to Stubbs, Dempster and George Craig I think you would have realised there has been a cultural change in the club already, and the business model changes are underway.

marinello59
30-01-2015, 10:06 PM
That is not true re gifted the club 4.5 million.....

You clearly believe that to be the case and I think it is wrong for the current owners to represent it like this!

The bank wanted out of football...the debt was already written off by them when Rangers went bust. Anything they collected from the various clubs in Scotland was a bonus !

I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 10:07 PM
Disnae matter what you think now, its done and dusted and we have what we have. You can either invest or not, the same choice we all have now.

I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.

greenginger
30-01-2015, 10:14 PM
I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.


I've not expressed an interest yet , share applications are not being accepted before 2nd February. I will definitely be buying more shares.

My wife, three children , and one grandchild will all become new shareholders in Hibernian F C. Their interest has not been noted yet either.

Am I wrong in thinking you hope the share issue will be a failure ?

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 10:17 PM
The numbers Rod put up at the AGM IIRC were 2 balloon payments of £1.8m and £2.5m in 2017 (again IIRC) & 2020. So add on some interest and you get to at least £4.5m due over the next 5 years. This was roughly half our £9m debt under the old scenario. This was also why the refinancing had to happen now because we couldn't have afforded the first of these payments IMO.

Over the next 5 years we pay £500k pa so £2.5m hence a 'saving' of c. £2.0m over the next 5 years and £4m+ overall.

These are the numbers behind why I believe the debt refinance was a good deal for the club.
The other reason I think its a good deal is the share issue is new money for the club as STF gets diluted.

The shakedown accusation comes about, again IMO, because of a belief from HOH et al that the club should get away scot free from all obligations for nothing as a 'freebie' for mismanagement and because the fans have suffered too much (which of course is true). This not happening Kano called morally wrong in the EEN. I fundamentally disagree with him on this. In the real world unless you do a Sevco/newco route you have to pay for mismanagement. We, IMO, are lucky we have lower debt & significant but manageable repayments. Hence the club saying 'Hibs are a club that pays its debts'.

Now should RP have gone as a result of said mismanagement..yes IMO. But he's not & I can live with that as his most recent decisions..GC, LD & AS have been good ones so far as I can see.

One thing I really can't make my mind up about is the right ultimate ownership model. Wednesday's AGM sent a shiver down my spine when I thought about that and fan ownership.

Stonewall
30-01-2015, 10:21 PM
All we do here is provide a platform for Hibs fans of all viewpoints to have their say and as such we don't act as fan leaders or spokespeople. That doesn't stop some having a go at us because they don't like what they read here but we really have no editorial policy or stance. It's up to the members here to make up their own minds.
I agree about the divisions, it is frustrating, particularly when there is no need. We managed to decide the future of our nation with much less vitriol then some are throwing about regarding the future of our football club.

And your collective statement of 29 May re Petrie wasn't editorialising?

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 10:24 PM
I've not expressed an interest yet , share applications are not being accepted before 2nd February. I will definitely be buying more shares.

My wife, three children , and one grandchild will all become new shareholders in Hibernian F C. Their interest has not been noted yet either.

Am I wrong in thinking you hope the share issue will be a failure ?

I hope the share issue is a success........i am a Hibs fan......I want to see the club being successful.....so you are wrong in thinking that.....fantastic re legacy and rest assured i am doing the same as you.

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 10:25 PM
Normally the largest shareholders or bankers or significant new shareholders underwrite a share issue.
Obviously banks are out & I assume you don't mean STF underwrite an issue designed to dilute himself.
Do you mean Global Hibby you would have been prepared to underwrite?

Unless of course you wanted RP to underwrite more than his corner:)

blackpoolhibs
30-01-2015, 10:32 PM
I think it is a long way off being done and dusted......Hibs have around 8000 season ticket holders........plus other fans who are not.

the current number who have posted an interest is around 700 based on the latest statement......that leaves a huge number who have not expressed an interest.

It is done and dusted, this is the scheme we are going forward with. You me and the rest of the support are either in or they are not. The scheme you think would work better will not be anything we can choose because thats not on the table now or in the future.

you mention 700 have posted an interest so far, you can add me to that but i have had nothing through the door yet. Balance that to the 30 people at most who are against this and could be bothered enough to protest against it plus the huge number that have not protested against it.

I had high hopes at the beginning when you first arrived on the scene, but i can see right through you matey.

marinello59
30-01-2015, 10:34 PM
And your collective statement of 29 May re Petrie wasn't editorialising?

Fair point.
A one off from us and something we obviously felt very strongly about. We though long and hard before making that statement as it is really not what we usually do here.

tamig
30-01-2015, 10:35 PM
I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

Not sure what your issue is with the last para. That's about the size of it so far as Lloyds are concerned.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 10:35 PM
I don't know whether to describe your last paragraph as spin or fantasy. I love how you have reappeared after months of inactivity here pretending to be open minded when you really just want to trash HSL. A bit dishonest no?
You made big promises about cash injection before, are you going to do that now?

Marinello, can you tell me how I have trashed HSL ? i said they had a foundation to build from did i not ?

In terms of promises re cash......i was approached and backed that approach with committed cash. There are some people who post on here who knew of the group as do some of the participants in HSL !!

The group was unsuccessful clearly despite ticking all the boxes !!

So, as far as promises re cash Marinello they were followed through with...... Trust that puts the record straight !!

marinello59
30-01-2015, 10:39 PM
T
Marinello, can you tell me how I have trashed HSL ? i said they had a foundation to build from did i not ?

In terms of promises re cash......i was approached and backed that approach with committed cash. There are some people who post on here who knew of the group as do some of the participants in HSL !!

The group was unsuccessful clearly despite ticking all the boxes !!

So, as far as promises re cash Marinello they were followed through with...... Trust that puts the record straight !!

Glad to hear you put cash in then. I apologise for assuming that you didn't. That is a healthy sum you originally pledged.

matty_f
30-01-2015, 10:54 PM
I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 10:55 PM
T

Glad to hear you put cash in then. I apologise for assuming that you didn't. That is a healthy sum you originally pledged.

But the bid failed though sadly !

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:04 PM
I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

Thats your view and i respect that Matty........its all about opinions and views..........i deal with shareholders every day from FTSE top 100 and down to businesses where the shareholder participates in the business.
The ones who make the fewest mistakes and have a the greater success are those that put cash in as equity and not as a loan.

At no point have I said STF should hand over the club for nothing !!!!! unfair for you to accuse me of that in the public domain Matty and trust you will apologise for that false accusation.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:11 PM
Normally the largest shareholders or bankers or significant new shareholders underwrite a share issue.
Obviously banks are out & I assume you don't mean STF underwrite an issue designed to dilute himself.
Do you mean Global Hibby you would have been prepared to underwrite?

Unless of course you wanted RP to underwrite more than his corner:)

if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:15 PM
I think it's disingenuous to label STF's tenure at the club as mismanagement. There have been mistakes but there have also been successes, and the football club we have an opportunity to own is significantly changed for the better from the club that STF took over.

We are, temporarily IMHO, in an unacceptable division, however the statement at the AGM about us being a Premiership club is correct - and we literally will be before too long (again, IMHO).

We have a great stadium and top class training facilities. The assertion that we have been grossly mismanaged to the point where it should somehow render any debt void is ridiculous. The notion that because we got relegated, STF should just take the hit and hand over the club for nothing is equally ridiculous.

I referred to mismanagement in my post. Wasnt meaning STF as he wasn't managing. I meant RP and in particular the last 5/6 years containing some humiliating results and obvious downward spiral ending in relegation.
Agree with your last point as mentioned above & this is where I believe Kano is incorrect with his 'morally wrong' chat.

greenginger
30-01-2015, 11:15 PM
I hope the share issue is a success........i am a Hibs fan......I want to see the club being successful.....so you are wrong in thinking that.....fantastic re legacy and rest assured i am doing the same as you.


Great, glad to hear it, welcome aboard and apologies for inferring you were not committed to the cause.

The share issue is underway and won't be stopped for HoH. :greengrin

I'm sure adjustments can be made as things progress if they are required.

greenginger
30-01-2015, 11:22 PM
if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!


You are saying you have got to wealthy to be part of the new ownership scheme management.

Its meant to be Community Ownership. There is a maximum investment per individual condition.

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:23 PM
if i were a member of Buy Hibs or HSL as a director...i would see it as my duty to underwrite the plan i believe in.

I do question why the directors of HSL are not doing this to be honest !!
IMO underwriting an issue of this nature isn't practical. HSL has no idea how long it will take the ordinary fans direct debits to get to £2.5m. Normally an underwriter has a commitment for weeks/ month or two as shareholders decide whether or not to step up but here we're talking years.
Don't know finances of HSL directors but doesnt look like they've been chosen based on their Balance Sheets.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:26 PM
Great, glad to hear it, welcome aboard and apologies for inferring you were not committed to the cause.

The share issue is underway and won't be stopped for HoH. :greengrin

I'm sure adjustments can be made as things progress if they are required.

apology gratefully received :-)

My decision is all emotional though and legacy story telling......its not based on business viewpoint lol

I recall a poster named Jack saying that no outside bids will be considered fully until the path chosen by the owners is pursued......how correct he was and HOH wont be able to stop it either !!

matty_f
30-01-2015, 11:27 PM
I referred to mismanagement in my post. Wasnt meaning STF as he wasn't managing. I meant RP and in particular the last 5/6 years containing some humiliating results and obvious downward spiral ending in relegation.
Agree with your last point as mentioned above & this is where I believe Kano is incorrect with his 'morally wrong' chat.

There have been a few references across the forums and in the press regarding mismanagement so please don't feel I was singling your reference out.

HoH seem to be arguing that there is only debt because the club was mismanaged, which is why it shouldn't be repaid. I read Global Hibby's point to be similar.

matty_f
30-01-2015, 11:31 PM
Thats your view and i respect that Matty........its all about opinions and views..........i deal with shareholders every day from FTSE top 100 and down to businesses where the shareholder participates in the business.
The ones who make the fewest mistakes and have a the greater success are those that put cash in as equity and not as a loan.

At no point have I said STF should hand over the club for nothing !!!!! unfair for you to accuse me of that in the public domain Matty and trust you will apologise for that false accusation.

I didn't say you said that, nor did I refer to you in my post.

Shareholders lending businesses money is common practice, and in my banking days I regularly saw business owners lend money to their businesses.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:31 PM
IMO underwriting an issue of this nature isn't practical. HSL has no idea how long it will take the ordinary fans direct debits to get to £2.5m. Normally an underwriter has a commitment for weeks/ month or two as shareholders decide whether or not to step up but here we're talking years.
Don't know finances of HSL directors but doesnt look like they've been chosen based on their Balance Sheets.

I agree with you.......The club needs a substantial amount of new cash to come in though and quickly.....which is a problem.

Is a strange one though, that founding directors are also directors of Hibs FC..........can not get my head around that one and the independent line that is portrayed.

whats your take on that ?

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:33 PM
There have been a few references across the forums and in the press regarding mismanagement so please don't feel I was singling your reference out.

HoH seem to be arguing that there is only debt because the club was mismanaged, which is why it shouldn't be repaid. I read Global Hibby's point to be similar.

It's fine, I wanted to clarify anyway.
Whilst STFs overall legacy will still be a positive for the reasons you cite, his one his error was not looking to change the CEO earlier, obviously IMO.

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:42 PM
You are saying you have got to wealthy to be part of the new ownership scheme management.

Its meant to be Community Ownership. There is a maximum investment per individual condition.

Am not saying that at all.......i was asked a direct question asking would i underwrite it and i said yes as i believe it would be my duty as a director to do that.

Maximum Investment is a good model for this approach and am looking forward to seeing the results.

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:44 PM
I agree with you.......The club needs a substantial amount of new cash to come in though and quickly.....which is a problem.

Is a strange one though, that founding directors are also directors of Hibs FC..........can not get my head around that one and the independent line that is portrayed.

whats your take on that ?

I'm not sure that substantial cash is needed straight away though. Say we raise £2.5m this month. What do we do..instantly double Stubbs budget..?..wouldn't be prudent unless you felt it would lead to such a superior squad that revenue would go up sustainably by the same amount. Don't think Hibs are a speculate to accumulate club.

I actually think getting share money in smaller tranches is good as it will lead to more sustainable increases in players wages etc. On a turnover of £7m 50% wages to turnover, £500kpa would lead to a 13% inc in wages..that would help secure better players for longer and should lead to gradual outperformance rather than 1-off.

On your second point, conflict of interest. I think it comes down to trust. I trust the new regime & I take at face value LD saying at the AGM that the reason she is on HSL Board is because she has experience of doing it at Motherwell.

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:47 PM
I'm not sure that substantial cash is needed straight away though. Say we raise £2.5m this month. What do we do..instantly double Stubbs budget..?..wouldn't be prudent unless you felt it would lead to such a superior squad that revenue would go up sustainably by the same amount. Don't think Hibs are a speculate to accumulate club.

I actually think getting share money in smaller tranches is good as it will lead to more sustainable increases in players wages etc. On a turnover of £7m 50% wages to turnover, £500kpa would lead to a 13% inc in wages..that would help secure better players for longer and should lead to gradual outperformance rather than 1-off.

On your second point, conflict of interest. I think it comes down to trust. I trust the new regime & I take at face value LD saying at the AGM that the reason she is on HSL Board is because she has experience of doing it at Motherwell.

Just realised I chose £500k in my example..not to be confused with STFs £500k payments :)

Global Hibby
30-01-2015, 11:50 PM
I didn't say you said that, nor did I refer to you in my post.

Shareholders lending businesses money is common practice, and in my banking days I regularly saw business owners lend money to their businesses.

Thanks Matty for explaining and thought it was aimed at me and my apologies Sir !!

i agree its common practise and am sure from your banking days, you would agree a real investment into the business to address the issues is much better than putting a loan in place particularly when its long term and not short term. Sticking regular short term loans in place normally means the business is under capitalised and short of cash.

whats your thoughts ?

ano hibby
30-01-2015, 11:56 PM
Thanks Matty for explaining and thought it was aimed at me and my apologies Sir !!

i agree its common practise and am sure from your banking days, you would agree a real investment into the business to address the issues is much better than putting a loan in place particularly when its long term and not short term. Sticking regular short term loans in place normally means the business is under capitalised and short of cash.

whats your thoughts ?

GH, you obviously think we are seriously short of cash. Can I ask why that is..? We don't have obvious capital projects to do. Do you think we are making significant trading losses, is that the reason?
As I see it we are currently cutting our cloth to be break even every year. We obviously can't control that completely though & I do worry what happens if we don't get promoted. As was said at the AGM we have an SPL infrastructure. So yes curious to know why you think we need such a big investment so quickly?

matty_f
30-01-2015, 11:59 PM
Thanks Matty for explaining and thought it was aimed at me and my apologies Sir !!

i agree its common practise and am sure from your banking days, you would agree a real investment into the business to address the issues is much better than putting a loan in place particularly when its long term and not short term. Sticking regular short term loans in place normally means the business is under capitalised and short of cash.

whats your thoughts ?

I think that 10 years is long term enough, and I think football clubs, by the unpredictability and nature of the business, experience periods where there will be short term underfunding where a short term loan is a reasonable way to deal with it.

For example, traditionally clubs have been cash rich when season ticket money comes in, and a club will budget for x amount in gates, x amount in prize money, x from sponsorship, x from cup runs and so on.

If an unforeseen event (like Rangers going bust) happens then x amount in gates takes a hit, which impacts cash. The club then has to find that money, knowing that they can almost reset the budgets for the next season, so they can borrow against next season's budgets.

Hibs have for long enough had a policy of self sustaining, so no overdraft with the bank and paying back what was borrowed with what we take in.

I don't think there's anything wrong in that fundamental approach.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:00 AM
I'm not sure that substantial cash is needed straight away though. Say we raise £2.5m this month. What do we do..instantly double Stubbs budget..?..wouldn't be prudent unless you felt it would lead to such a superior squad that revenue would go up sustainably by the same amount. Don't think Hibs are a speculate to accumulate club.

I actually think getting share money in smaller tranches is good as it will lead to more sustainable increases in players wages etc. On a turnover of £7m 50% wages to turnover, £500kpa would lead to a 13% inc in wages..that would help secure better players for longer and should lead to gradual outperformance rather than 1-off.

On your second point, conflict of interest. I think it comes down to trust. I trust the new regime & I take at face value LD saying at the AGM that the reason she is on HSL Board is because she has experience of doing it at Motherwell.

i agree with you Ano, LD is good CEO of a football club and a good hire for Hibs

The turnover will not hit 6m unless a cup final or semi is reached.....so 7m is a long way off.

The 2.5 m would be used up pretty quickly to support the 1.5m of working capital the club needs in the summer and the balance should cover the losses for this current year. The ratio i am interested in re wages is first team squad to turnover and that needs increasing for sure !

Thats my take on the numbers......so its tough for sure.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:06 AM
I think that 10 years is long term enough, and I think football clubs, by the unpredictability and nature of the business, experience periods where there will be short term underfunding where a short term loan is a reasonable way to deal with it.

For example, traditionally clubs have been cash rich when season ticket money comes in, and a club will budget for x amount in gates, x amount in prize money, x from sponsorship, x from cup runs and so on.

If an unforeseen event (like Rangers going bust) happens then x amount in gates takes a hit, which impacts cash. The club then has to find that money, knowing that they can almost reset the budgets for the next season, so they can borrow against next season's budgets.

Hibs have for long enough had a policy of self sustaining, so no overdraft with the bank and paying back what was borrowed with what we take in.

I don't think there's anything wrong in that fundamental approach.

Good points Matty....... The rough 3m number owed to STF is up on the previous years number, which was up on the year before unless i am mistaken.......what do you put that down too ? It looks to me a long term cash injection is needed ? Looks like circa £2.5m to me.

what do you think ?

ano hibby
31-01-2015, 12:14 AM
Good points Matty....... The rough 3m number owed to STF is up on the previous years number, which was up on the year before unless i am mistaken.......what do you put that down too ? It looks to me a long term cash injection is needed ? Looks like circa £2.5m to me.

what do you think ?

GH, help me, I'm just not seeing where you get £2.5 needed from. I agree we may need to fund losses this year but surely no more than £1m. You mentioned £1.5m working capital previously what is this? A football club doesn't need inventory or to fund debtors..we get cash up front or on the day & pay players as we go. You don't mean transfer fees do you?

matty_f
31-01-2015, 12:14 AM
Good points Matty....... The rough 3m number owed to STF is up on the previous years number, which was up on the year before unless i am mistaken.......what do you put that down too ? It looks to me a long term cash injection is needed ? Looks like circa £2.5m to me.

what do you think ?

I think that we would be aiming for break even without the share issue being fully subscribed. IMHO, there is no danger to the running of the club if there is no cash injection. The repayment holiday alleviates pressure to a large degree, and with good cost control there's no reason why the club can't cover running costs from its expected turnover.

IMHO the income from the shares is about affording the football side of the club the means to achieve better, faster. It's not a necessity to run the club.

As for your question around the £3m, I'm afraid I haven't followed the thread closely enough to understand where that figure is pulled from. I understood the new long term debt to have roughly halved to £5m repaid interest free over ten years.

ano hibby
31-01-2015, 12:19 AM
i agree with you Ano, LD is good CEO of a football club and a good hire for Hibs

The turnover will not hit 6m unless a cup final or semi is reached.....so 7m is a long way off.

The 2.5 m would be used up pretty quickly to support the 1.5m of working capital the club needs in the summer and the balance should cover the losses for this current year. The ratio i am interested in re wages is first team squad to turnover and that needs increasing for sure !

Thats my take on the numbers......so its tough for sure.

Again sorry not sure I'm with you. Wages IMO have to be considered overall. No point paying first team squad & neglecting academy etc. And it's not the ratio itself which needs to go up its both sides of the equation simultaneously.

ano hibby
31-01-2015, 12:21 AM
I think that we would be aiming for break even without the share issue being fully subscribed. IMHO, there is no danger to the running of the club if there is no cash injection. The repayment holiday alleviates pressure to a large degree, and with good cost control there's no reason why the club can't cover running costs from its expected turnover.

IMHO the income from the shares is about affording the football side of the club the means to achieve better, faster. It's not a necessity to run the club.

As for your question around the £3m, I'm afraid I haven't followed the thread closely enough to understand where that figure is pulled from. I understood the new long term debt to have roughly halved to £5m repaid interest free over ten years.

I agree with this take on things & it's pretty much what LD said on Wed night.
Also not sure where the £3m came from..?

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 12:27 AM
I agree with you.......The club needs a substantial amount of new cash to come in though and quickly.....which is a problem.

Is a strange one though, that founding directors are also directors of Hibs FC..........can not get my head around that one and the independent line that is portrayed.

whats your take on that ?
They're not, though.

There is only one common director.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:27 AM
I think that we would be aiming for break even without the share issue being fully subscribed. IMHO, there is no danger to the running of the club if there is no cash injection. The repayment holiday alleviates pressure to a large degree, and with good cost control there's no reason why the club can't cover running costs from its expected turnover.

IMHO the income from the shares is about affording the football side of the club the means to achieve better, faster. It's not a necessity to run the club.

As for your question around the £3m, I'm afraid I haven't followed the thread closely enough to understand where that figure is pulled from. I understood the new long term debt to have roughly halved to £5m repaid interest free over ten years.

How long is the repayment holiday ?

I think the loss for this current year will be circa 600k based on the trend forecast i completed.......i hope i am wrong !!!

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:29 AM
They're not, though.

There is only one common director.

When i did a quick search...Bruce and Leanne came up ??

Has one resigned ?

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 12:30 AM
I agree with this take on things & it's pretty much what LD said on Wed night.
Also not sure where the £3m came from..?
It's taking the accounts figure of 2.75m for the debt due to the holding company, and rounding it up to get to the amount due in December.

Listening to RP the other night, though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a good bit higher.

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 12:30 AM
When i did a quick search...Bruce and Leanne came up ??

Has one resigned ?
Bruce isn't

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:32 AM
Again sorry not sure I'm with you. Wages IMO have to be considered overall. No point paying first team squad & neglecting academy etc. And it's not the ratio itself which needs to go up its both sides of the equation simultaneously.

I agree with you overall by the way !!

the academy wage as a % is so small......when clubs like St Johnstone have a higher first team ratio to turnover than Hibs....that concerns me greatly....hence my focus in that area.

matty_f
31-01-2015, 12:33 AM
How long is the repayment holiday ?

I think the loss for this current year will be circa 600k based on the trend forecast i completed.......i hope i am wrong !!!

The first repayment is not until August 2015.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:37 AM
Bruce isn't

He was though on the search i read on line via a company search but i noticed he was not on the photo call i saw.

are you basing your no answer on company search or photo call ?

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 12:40 AM
He was though on the search i read on line via a company search but i noticed he was not on the photo call i saw.

are you basing your no answer on company search or photo call ?
Companies House do not have him listed as a director.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:40 AM
The first repayment is not until August 2015.

wow.......i thought it was a holiday not a long weekend.......not a dig at you Matty...when i have seem repayment holidays they have tended to be a few years not a few months.

thanks for letting me know Matty !

matty_f
31-01-2015, 12:41 AM
I agree with you overall by the way !!

the academy wage as a % is so small......when clubs like St Johnstone have a higher first team ratio to turnover than Hibs....that concerns me greatly....hence my focus in that area.

I wouldn't get hung up on the wages to turnover ratio, St Johnstone would likely have a higher wages to turnover ratio just by virtue of paying players from a smaller turnover.

Without looking, I would imagine the first team squads wouldn't differ hugely in size, I believe we pay better (or at least did pre-relegation) so you're not really comparing apples with apples just by looking at the ratio.

Considering football clubs in the Scottish football will carry roughly the same amount of players in their first team squad, the fairer comparison to make (if you're comparing us with St Johnstone) would be on actual spend on the first team, rather than that spend as a percentage of turnover, unless St Johnstone ramped up their turnover to match ours.

n.b. I've not looked into St Johnstone's financials so am making some assumptions here.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 12:42 AM
Companies House do not have him listed as a director.

The search i saw was not direct from companies house......guess you are correct !!

thanks

greenginger
31-01-2015, 12:45 AM
Companies House do not have him listed as a director.

Bruce Langham must have been a director at the set up of HSL.

He resigned his directorship on 15/1/2015.

matty_f
31-01-2015, 12:47 AM
wow.......i thought it was a holiday not a long weekend.......not a dig at you Matty...when i have seem repayment holidays they have tended to be a few years not a few months.

thanks for letting me know Matty !

Again, from experience, 6 months is not uncommon - I've seen as little as a couple of months grace given as a repayment holiday. I have seen it where in excess of a year has been granted but those cases have, in my experience, been very much the exception rather than the rule.

The deciding factor generally is when the borrower feels that they will be comfortable to begin repayments, for a football club August would seem like a sensible time to start.

Due to the terms of our debt, and the strategic plan to be debt free in 10 years, it makes sense to begin repayments sooner rather than later IMHO.

greenginger
31-01-2015, 12:52 AM
wow.......i thought it was a holiday not a long weekend.......not a dig at you Matty...when i have seem repayment holidays they have tended to be a few years not a few months.

thanks for letting me know Matty !


We do get a £ 500,000 parachute payment from the SPFL this financial and a £ 250,000 payment next year if we do not get promoted.

I also think if things were really dire STF would postpone the repayment another year . He is not going to wreck the new set-up for want of a timeous payment.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 01:02 AM
Bruce Langham must have been a director at the set up of HSL.

He resigned his directorship on 15/1/2015.

Thanks GG, i thought i was going mad there..........

Thats the kind of thing that bothers me.......its almost like .......been rumbled and lets undo that one....

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 01:05 AM
Thanks GG, i thought i was going mad there..........

Thats the kind of thing that bothers me.......its almost like .......been rumbled and lets undo that one....
There are 5 directors that aren't on the football club board.

5-1 has a nice ring to it.

grunt
31-01-2015, 01:06 AM
There seems to be an ever so polite little dig at everything which Hibs have done. And what's a trend forecast when it's at home?

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 01:07 AM
We do get a £ 500,000 parachute payment from the SPFL this financial and a £ 250,000 payment next year if we do not get promoted.

I also think if things were really dire STF would postpone the repayment another year . He is not going to wreck the new set-up for want of a timeous payment.

My view would be...lets get the following three things completed before repayment commences.

1. Be in profit not a loss.
2 Promotion.
3. Fan ownership to a minimum of 26%

i accounted for payments in my calculations.....

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 01:18 AM
There seems to be an ever so polite little dig at everything which Hibs have done. And what's a trend forecast when it's at home?

I do not think i am polite at all regarding the current shareholders........its a dig and indeed more than a dig.......but in terms of LD and AS they are making good headway.

i do not agree with the HOH approach by the way just to be clear and am not a member of Buy Hibs. I question LD being CEO of HSL and Hibs.....its a clear conflict of interest in my opinion......i would feel more comfortable if that was not the case.

Its not about trusting LD or her abilities......its the conflict of interest that bothers me.

Global Hibby
31-01-2015, 01:28 AM
Again, from experience, 6 months is not uncommon - I've seen as little as a couple of months grace given as a repayment holiday. I have seen it where in excess of a year has been granted but those cases have, in my experience, been very much the exception rather than the rule.

The deciding factor generally is when the borrower feels that they will be comfortable to begin repayments, for a football club August would seem like a sensible time to start.

Due to the terms of our debt, and the strategic plan to be debt free in 10 years, it makes sense to begin repayments sooner rather than later IMHO.

I think when the owner is due to the repayment then he should ensure that the club is profitable and is back in the premier league at least before repayment commences.

having 500k come out of the club when it then goes on to make a loss would be wrong in my opinion.......and....if the monies raised in share issue bridge the gap between loss and repayment then i will not be a happy camper and will do something about it.

Matty, i have read conflicting messages.......on money raised re share issue....what is your take on it ?

matty_f
31-01-2015, 01:31 AM
I do not think i am polite at all regarding the current shareholders........its a dig and indeed more than a dig.......but in terms of LD and AS they are making good headway.

i do not agree with the HOH approach by the way just to be clear and am not a member of Buy Hibs. I question LD being CEO of HSL and Hibs.....its a clear conflict of interest in my opinion......i would feel more comfortable if that was not the case.

Its not about trusting LD or her abilities......its the conflict of interest that bothers me.

I think you are getting hung up on a point that doesn't really matter.

HSL exists, for now, for one purpose and that is to buy shares in the football club on behalf of the support. That is all it will do (save for some small amount of admin and audit tasks). Until it has a 20% holding (iirc) HSL has no presence on the Hibs board and effectively no say in the running of the club.
It matters very little what LD's interests are, HSL has laid out how it operates, it will take money in then when that money reaches a pre-agreed level it will buy shares.

At 20% holding, HSL is guaranteed a seat on the board, as LD is Chief Exec of Hibs she will not take that seat, rather an elected person will.

It is very difficult to see where a conflict of interests could arise in this situation.

matty_f
31-01-2015, 01:45 AM
I think when the owner is due to the repayment then he should ensure that the club is profitable and is back in the premier league at least before repayment commences.

having 500k come out of the club when it then goes on to make a loss would be wrong in my opinion.......and....if the monies raised in share issue bridge the gap between loss and repayment then i will not be a happy camper and will do something about it.

Matty, i have read conflicting messages.......on money raised re share issue....what is your take on it ?

My take on it is very straightforward.

Hibs have agreed the repayments at a level that it can comfortably afford from existing operating costs. We had a debt that needed repaid, we would pay c£500k (give or take) to the bank regardless of our income prior to the debt restructure.

We now have to make £500k in debt repayments from our normal income. What's left of that income is largely available to spend on the team. The share issue then gives Stubbs and co a figure over and above that remainder to invest on the park.

In the unlikely event that the club have got the budgets all wrong and we end up in deficit when the debt is repaid from our income, then instead of Stubbs having to sell or cut back he still has the remainder of the share income to spend.

The debt is debt - it needs repaid and the club needs to cut its cloth accordingly. LD and RP will have worked hard and carefully to ensure that the debt is at a level that is manageable with room to spare from our income. STF would have me reason to put the club in a position where it's taken on a repayment agreement that would result in the club operating at a loss.

Bear in mind also that the debt is to the holding company which exists for the sole purpose of running the football club. STF has guaranteed that the share money is not being put towards debt, he promised this to the shareholders at the AGM, therefore I think your fears are unfounded.

Tyler Durden
31-01-2015, 04:35 AM
I think Global Hibby makes some good points here. If some of the boards detractors framed their argument in such a way they might have gained more support. To attempt to summarise

* A repayment of the clubs settlement with the bank over a 10 year period would be c£200k a year
* On the basis the bank debt was bought for c£2m, the boards framing of a "debt for equity" is disingenuous as effectively they've taken credit for a bank write off
* The other £3m owed to holding co has effectively covered trading losses. This is arguably due to mismanagement
* This £3m has never had a repayment schedule previously - is it right and just to ask the club to begin repaying now?

So STF is absolutely within his rights to take the approach he has and seek repayment of the holding co loans. However Global argues that the holding co £3m could have been deferred until we're in a better financial position in the top flight.

It shouldn't be forgotten STF is diluting his shareholding though.

For me personally I think we can continue to pore over all this or move forward with the boards proposals. I will be doing the latter and buying shares.

ano hibby
31-01-2015, 07:59 AM
I think Global Hibby makes some good points here. If some of the boards detractors framed their argument in such a way they might have gained more support. To attempt to summarise

* A repayment of the clubs settlement with the bank over a 10 year period would be c£200k a year
* On the basis the bank debt was bought for c£2m, the boards framing of a "debt for equity" is disingenuous as effectively they've taken credit for a bank write off
* The other £3m owed to holding co has effectively covered trading losses. This is arguably due to mismanagement
* This £3m has never had a repayment schedule previously - is it right and just to ask the club to begin repaying now?

So STF is absolutely within his rights to take the approach he has and seek repayment of the holding co loans. However Global argues that the holding co £3m could have been deferred until we're in a better financial position in the top flight.

It shouldn't be forgotten STF is diluting his shareholding though.

For me personally I think we can continue to pore over all this or move forward with the boards proposals. I will be doing the latter and buying shares.

I agree there are, as always, pros & cons of a deal such as this. There will hence be debate. But if your points, ie HOH, are buried so deep in vitriol & personal attacks you can only expect to be met in kind and not taken seriously.

I agree with some of GH's points also but have come to the same conclusion that you have in your last paragraph. I support the deal, will subscribe direct & via HSL and hope the detractors come round.

Also like greenginger noted above I'm not in the 700 registered but will be me + 3/4 family members to add to the list.

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 09:15 AM
I do not think i am polite at all regarding the current shareholders........its a dig and indeed more than a dig.......but in terms of LD and AS they are making good headway.

i do not agree with the HOH approach by the way just to be clear and am not a member of Buy Hibs. I question LD being CEO of HSL and Hibs.....its a clear conflict of interest in my opinion......i would feel more comfortable if that was not the case.

Its not about trusting LD or her abilities......its the conflict of interest that bothers me.
The question was asked the other night of LD "Why are you involved?".

She looked the questioner (Jim Slaven I believe ) straight in the eye and said "because I have experience in this". It was a clear answer to the question, as well as a dig at those who have yet to come up with anything that has convinced the support of a credible alternative.

HSL exists solely to raise money to buy shares in HFC. That is its sole purpose. With the exception of the running costs, all money raised goes out again.

There are currently another 5 directors, with the possibility of another 2 soon.

The members have the ability to vote her off.

Against the backdrop of that, I am struggling to see what LDs conflict of interest is. Even if there is one, it can be dealt with by getting rid of her.

grunt
31-01-2015, 09:54 AM
It is very difficult to see where a conflict of interests could arise in this situation.


Against the backdrop of that, I am struggling to see what LDs conflict of interest is. Even if there is one, it can be dealt with by getting rid of her.There is no conflict of interest.

grunt
31-01-2015, 10:01 AM
The 2.5 m would be used up pretty quickly to support the 1.5m of working capital the club needs in the summer ...


You mentioned £1.5m working capital previously what is this? A football club doesn't need inventory or to fund debtors..we get cash up front or on the day & pay players as we go. You don't mean transfer fees do you?No answer to this one. Sometimes it seems that there are numbers plucked from the air, and then presented as insurmountable obstacles. When did we last need £1.5m in the summer? If GH is talking about transfer fees, then the summer would be too late to buy for this season. But it can't be transfer fees, because that would not be described as working capital. GH - are you saying that you believe our season ticket income will be down by this amount, on the assumption that we don't go straight back up? Maybe that's what you mean?

grunt
31-01-2015, 10:13 AM
I think Global Hibby makes some good points here. If some of the boards detractors framed their argument in such a way they might have gained more support. To attempt to summarise

* A repayment of the clubs settlement with the bank over a 10 year period would be c£200k a year
* On the basis the bank debt was bought for c£2m, the boards framing of a "debt for equity" is disingenuous as effectively they've taken credit for a bank write off
* The other £3m owed to holding co has effectively covered trading losses. This is arguably due to mismanagement
* This £3m has never had a repayment schedule previously - is it right and just to ask the club to begin repaying now?
Thank you Tyler, and if this is a correct summary of GH's points, then he is beginning to make sense to me. These are good points, and they've made me think about the situation.

There appears to be an assumption that the £6.3m of bank debt has been bought out for £2m. Has this been verified anywhere? If so, then I'd say that STF has struck a very good deal on behalf of Hibs.

If the Board aren't to take credit for this bank deal, who should? BuyHibs? (That was a joke btw).

Whatever the cause, the £3m owed to holding co is a debt - Hibs pay their debts.

Just because something doesn't have a repayment schedule, doesn't mean that it isn't repayable. Some people have been concerned about STF's exit strategy - here he has presented one, and others are complaining.

Thanks both Tyler and Global - these viewpoints are interesting, and I think I can see where you're coming from. Still doesn't change my view that the proposal on the table is a good one, one which takes into account the positions of all stakeholders in Hibs.

Mikey
31-01-2015, 10:15 AM
Thank you Tyler, and if this is a correct summary of GH's points, then he is beginning to make sense to me. These are good points, and they've made me think about the situation.

There appears to be an assumption that the £6.3m of bank debt has been bought out for £2m. Has this been verified anywhere? If so, then I'd say that STF has struck a very good deal on behalf of Hibs.

If the Board aren't to take credit for this bank deal, who should? BuyHibs? (That was a joke btw).

Whatever the cause, the £3m owed to holding co is a debt - Hibs pay their debts.

Just because something doesn't have a repayment schedule, doesn't mean that it isn't repayable. Some people have been concerned about STF's exit strategy - here he has presented one, and others are complaining.

Thanks both Tyler and Global - these viewpoints are interesting, and I think I can see where you're coming from. Still doesn't change my view that the proposal on the table is a good one, one which takes into account the positions of all stakeholders in Hibs.

The figure is thought to be £1.872m and that came from a mole at the bank. We'll never get that confirmed by Hibs.

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 10:18 AM
The figure is thought to be £1.872m and that came from a mole at the bank. We'll never get that confirmed by Hibs.

And, for avoidance of doubt, the £3m is not a definite figure either.

If I heard RP right the other night, the holding company paid some of the bank loan instalments between July and December. If that's the case, the £3m may well be a lot higher.

grunt
31-01-2015, 10:20 AM
The figure is thought to be £1.872m and that came from a mole at the bank. We'll never get that confirmed by Hibs.
Thanks. Wow. Maybe I should try that with my mortgage.

matty_f
31-01-2015, 10:22 AM
Thanks. Wow. Maybe I should try that with my mortgage.

Where do you live if you've got a £6m mortgage?! :greengrin

Andy74
31-01-2015, 10:32 AM
It took them 11 months to thrash out a deal with the bank. If STF had just paid it back with no discount then that would taken less than 11 seconds for the bank to agree.

Rod said discussions about the deal took that long. They might have spent ten if those asking for a discount. The facts are there in the numbers without the guesswork.

Remember that there would have been a fair amount of interest due if we continued the arrangement. Even just accepting early payment of the full amount outdtsnding would be a discount. Talk of paying less than £2m for over £6m worth doesn't add up.

Andy74
31-01-2015, 10:34 AM
The figure is thought to be £1.872m and that came from a mole at the bank. We'll never get that confirmed by Hibs.

Why would holding company debt have been £9.5m if that was the case?

Someone would be lying to us about the need for the debt for equity swap.

Hibbyradge
31-01-2015, 10:37 AM
What is the basis for your belief?

The facts, as presented in the accounts, are there to be seen. The cash that we spent on the bank loan is as has been stated, broken down into interest and capital.

http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/TFES.jpg

Eyrie
31-01-2015, 11:00 AM
Why would holding company debt have been £9.5m if that was the case?

Someone would be lying to us about the need for the debt for equity swap.

Read it carefully ....

And just in case - I heard that the bank insisted on £7.0m but settled for £6.2m.

In practice there is a limit on how much of a hit the bank will have taken. I don't know where the £2m settlement figure comes from, and don't trust it because why would the bank agree to write off £4m from a business which has always paid its debts on time and which has those debts secured over valuable assets and guaranteed by a very wealthy man?

grunt
31-01-2015, 11:25 AM
Where do you live if you've got a £6m mortgage?! :greengrinheh heh good one. I was really speaking of the principle of offering less than a third of my outstanding balance. Which is a bit less than £6m, admittedly.

Tyler Durden
31-01-2015, 11:52 AM
Read it carefully ....

And just in case - I heard that the bank insisted on £7.0m but settled for £6.2m.

In practice there is a limit on how much of a hit the bank will have taken. I don't know where the £2m settlement figure comes from, and don't trust it because why would the bank agree to write off £4m from a business which has always paid its debts on time and which has those debts secured over valuable assets and guaranteed by a very wealthy man?

The bank insisted on £7m for a debt of £6.3m - that wouldn't have been much of a deal.

The banks rationale has been covered in other threads. People are entitled to believe what they like but it would be very naive to think Hibs or other SPFL teams have paid anywhere near the full amounts outstanding.

CropleyWasGod
31-01-2015, 11:53 AM
The bank insisted on £7m for a debt of £6.3m - that wouldn't have been much of a deal.

The banks rationale has been covered in other threads. People are entitled to believe what they like but it would be very naive to think Hibs or other SPFL teams have paid anywhere near the full amounts outstanding.

Whoosh? :greengrin "£7.0m but settled for £6.2m".???

As an aside, they wanted a £1.5m settlement fee........:cb

Eyrie
31-01-2015, 12:04 PM
Whoosh? :greengrin "£7.0m but settled for £6.2m".???

As an aside, they wanted a £1.5m settlement fee........:cb

So our bank manager was a Yam - surprised he didn't believe we owed it to ourselves and then let us walk away from the debt in exchange for the charity funds that were just resting in our account for months.

lucky
31-01-2015, 12:27 PM
The deal is the deal. We pay £500k for the next 10 years or bring through and develope another Scott Brown and we are debt free with a cracking stadium and training facility. As fans we can choose to buy shares, join HSL, join BuyHibs ( are they going to buy shares?) ,form another group , shout abuse or do nothing. But the deal is still the deal

matty_f
31-01-2015, 12:28 PM
The deal is the deal. We pay £500k for the next 10 years or bring through and develope another Scott Brown and we are debt free with a cracking stadium and training facility. As fans we can choose to buy shares, join HSL, join BuyHibs ( are they going to buy shares?) ,form another group , shout abuse or do nothing. But the deal is still the deal

:agree: in a nutshell!

Tyler Durden
31-01-2015, 12:41 PM
Whoosh? :greengrin "£7.0m but settled for £6.2m".???

As an aside, they wanted a £1.5m settlement fee........:cb

That moment when you realise you've been whooshed....

Pretty Boy
31-01-2015, 12:55 PM
And your collective statement of 29 May re Petrie wasn't editorialising?

I know this has probably been answered but I haven't read to the end of the thread yet.

The decision to post that statement and subsequently email various individuals at Hibs was not taken lightly. I wrote a large part of it and was very careful to make it clear that was the personal views of the admin team not .net as a whole entity.

A number of posters then contacted myself asking to be signatories to the emails sent. In the end we sent the email a 2nd time with upwards of 250 signature. Again still clearly stating it was only the opinion of those who had signed. At no point did we censor or edit anyone who disagreed with our viewpoint and there was a few posters who continued to back Rod Petrie freely on here.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 10:13 AM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:

blackpoolhibs
01-02-2015, 10:23 AM
If you had been successful with your takeover, would you have pumped in money every year on top of what you had originally put in?

How would the club under your ownership have dealt with loses?

Would your investment have prevented loses this year?

If you would not have put extra money in, how would we have coped not having that money the year after?

grunt
01-02-2015, 10:28 AM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:
What the heck are you talking about?

21.05.2016
01-02-2015, 10:33 AM
HSL for me. The HoH campaign is an absolute embarrassment, they keep making big claims and sweeping statements that they have absolutely nothing to back it up with and quite frankly im getting sick of them constantly trying to create a war with the club.

FranckSuzy
01-02-2015, 10:34 AM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:

Where is the 'fasten your seatbelts' smilie when you need it? :wink:

One question for you...where have you been these last few months, as you seem to have only reappeared after the share issue/HSL scheme was announced?

Caversham Green
01-02-2015, 10:48 AM
What the heck are you talking about?

Glad it's not just me.


A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:

One question re your comments earlier in this thread - Given that the stated aim of this share offer is to surrender a degree of control to the fans how do you think the current majority shareholder underwriting the issue would achieve that aim? Can you also explain how the concept of prospective shareholders underwriting their own subscription would work for this particular issue?

Andy74
01-02-2015, 10:53 AM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:

Strange.

ano hibby
01-02-2015, 11:18 AM
This 1m gain...500k from repayment holiday & 500k (?) parachute?
Looks to me as if it's going to be funding losses this year. We have an SPL standard squad & infrastructure and our revenues are not responding.
As for next year it all depends on promotion & we won't know about that until sometime late May.

Cav if you look back in the thread I think GH's initial point on underwriting was stepped back from..ie just not practical.

ano hibby
01-02-2015, 11:22 AM
GH also can I ask where you get your £1.5m WC requirement in the summer from?

Caversham Green
01-02-2015, 12:22 PM
This 1m gain...500k from repayment holiday & 500k (?) parachute?
Looks to me as if it's going to be funding losses this year. We have an SPL standard squad & infrastructure and our revenues are not responding.
As for next year it all depends on promotion & we won't know about that until sometime late May.

Cav if you look back in the thread I think GH's initial point on underwriting was stepped back from..ie just not practical.

I see GH agreed with you that it wasn't practical ( I missed that previously) but as far as I can see it would also have been absolutely the wrong thing to do, while the idea of HSL or its directors doing the underwriting makes no sense. I feel that GH is guilty of a degree of woolly thinking throughout this debate and the supposed "near £1m financial gain this current season and year" is another manifestation of that.

ano hibby
01-02-2015, 01:09 PM
I see GH agreed with you that it wasn't practical ( I missed that previously) but as far as I can see it would also have been absolutely the wrong thing to do, while the idea of HSL or its directors doing the underwriting makes no sense. I feel that GH is guilty of a degree of woolly thinking throughout this debate and the supposed "near £1m financial gain this current season and year" is another manifestation of that.

Yes, some interesting thoughts but some less than joined up thinking.
The underwriting & conflict of interest comments being prime examples IMO.

CentreLine
01-02-2015, 01:14 PM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?

Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?

Where would you like to see it invested ?

Will it prevent a loss this current year ?

How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !



:flag:

Would you or anybody else have had a run at taking over the club if we did not have a completed fit for purpose stadium, state of the art training facilities and manageable debt?
Is it just that the club has suddenly become attractive because our current owners have achieved all these things?

Eyrie
01-02-2015, 01:42 PM
A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.

Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.

What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?
I'd guess somewhere between £500k and £750k.


Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?
It's only just been announced.


Where would you like to see it invested ?
Some will need to be used to finance the new football structure, but after that I want it spent mostly on the first team squad.


Will it prevent a loss this current year ?
No, because a share issue does not affect the P&L.


How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?
The share money will be coming in over the next few years, which provides a platform to build a strong enough squad that the crowds will improve. Assuming we use the money wisely - one thing that Petrie can't be accused of is failing to back his managers despite them signing duds.


Be great to see more questions, thoughts and ideas on this when I pop back later.

Have a great Sunday !

:flag:
Can I ask a personal question? At the moment, are you inclined to invest in new shares yourself or are you undecided?

hhibs
01-02-2015, 06:24 PM
No issue with any groups asking pokey, awkward questions, relevant or not. The level of distrust in Petrie and the Hibs Board is such that they deserve sceptical scrutiny and need to work much harder to rebuild trust following the last 7 shambolic years. I'm a soft touch when it comes to Hibs, but remain unconvinced by what I've heard so far. Still too many unanswered questions.

All too true.

greenginger
01-02-2015, 06:36 PM
Is the gain in P and L accounts GH is referring to not the gain from the revaluation of the Stadium and Training Centre ?

Jones Lang LaSalle increased the value ( depreciated replacement coast ) by £ 2.5 million and, together with the loss for the financial year of £ 1.2 million gives total gain from the last accounts of £ 1.3 million.

I think even HoH could be persuaded that this is'nt cash that can be spent or swag STF can run off with. :greengrin

blackpoolhibs
01-02-2015, 06:57 PM
I personally think it will be stolen by STF along with all that car park money, he's building a nice nest egg for himself.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:03 PM
I personally think it will be stolen by STF along with all that car park money, he's building a nice nest egg for himself.

I think you should go back to the gym Matey as never heard anything so stupid in all my life !!

you will be ignored from now by me.

blackpoolhibs
01-02-2015, 07:03 PM
I think you should go back to the gym Matey as never heard anything so stupid in all my life !!

you will be ignored from now by me.

Thank you. :not worth

Andy74
01-02-2015, 07:06 PM
If anyone ever needed proof that being reasonably successful in a particular business doesn't mean that you know much about anything...

Saturday Boy
01-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Thank you. :not worth

Any minute now he will be hit on the back of the head by a giant Whooosh!! on its second lap of the world. :wink:

blackpoolhibs
01-02-2015, 07:09 PM
Any minute now he will be hit on the back of the head by a giant Whooosh!! on its second lap of the world. :wink:

:greengrin Even i never thought anyone would fall for that one.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:09 PM
Is the gain in P and L accounts GH is referring to not the gain from the revaluation of the Stadium and Training Centre ?

Jones Lang LaSalle increased the value ( depreciated replacement coast ) by £ 2.5 million and, together with the loss for the financial year of £ 1.2 million gives total gain from the last accounts of £ 1.3 million.

I think even HoH could be persuaded that this is'nt cash that can be spent or swag STF can run off with. :greengrin

Hi GG,

i am not referring to that......its the parachute payment and debt repayment both of which are roughly 1m

The revaluation is cosmetic in the opinion from a banking viewpoint....hence why the bank wanted out.

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:11 PM
Is the gain in P and L accounts GH is referring to not the gain from the revaluation of the Stadium and Training Centre ?
Who knows? I'm thinking it's just another number plucked from thin air and then thrown into the forum for us to "debate". Although it's difficult to debate when it seems that GH has gone home in a sulk because he wasn't allowed to open a further two threads simply because he couldn't remember where he posted this question this morning.

Edit to add that I see GH has now explained his £1m gain.

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:14 PM
Hi GG,

i am not referring to that......its the parachute payment and debt repayment both of which are roughly 1m

The revaluation is cosmetic in the opinion from a banking viewpoint....hence why the bank wanted out.Hi GH

You're going to have to help me here. Are you saying the bank wanted out - because we are revaluing our assets every year??

Caversham Green
01-02-2015, 07:18 PM
I think you should go back to the gym Matey as never heard anything so stupid in all my life !!

you will be ignored from now by me.

There's some serious competition on this very thread. At least BH's post was tongue in cheek.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:21 PM
I'd guess somewhere between £500k and £750k.


It's only just been announced.


Some will need to be used to finance the new football structure, but after that I want it spent mostly on the first team squad.


No, because a share issue does not affect the P&L.


The share money will be coming in over the next few years, which provides a platform to build a strong enough squad that the crowds will improve. Assuming we use the money wisely - one thing that Petrie can't be accused of is failing to back his managers despite them signing duds.


Can I ask a personal question? At the moment, are you inclined to invest in new shares yourself or are you undecided?

sure can ask me a personal question.....I will make an emotional purchase and buy some shares like many Hibs fans.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:29 PM
There's some serious competition on this very thread. At least BH's post was tongue in cheek.

Serious competition is about asking questions CG and then debating the various points without stupid comments.

Nothing worse than someone who is opinionated but can not back the opinion with intelligent comments to encourage debate !

Hence stupid and personal comments !

I thought this site was about debate and opinions.

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:31 PM
Now that Hibs have gained an near additional 1m gain this year.
What's the views on how much more the share offering will add to this years pot?
Are we seeing the benefits yet coming from the gain ?
Where would you like to see it invested ?
Will it prevent a loss this current year ?
How will we cope when the 1m is not there next year if the share offering does not replace it ?

Ok so the £1m gain is from the parachute payment and the repayment holiday.
Well the parachute payment is not so much of a gain, as I'm sure we will have received money from the SPFL last year which we won't get this year - we'll have received some money relevant to our 11th place position, plus we'll have had some TV money - so who knows, but I expect that the parachute payment is designed to compensate for the loss of these two items.

The repayment holiday is not more income, rather it's the absence of a cost - so while it may help our P&L it doesn't do much to add spending power to the club.

In case you didn't notice, we lost £1.2m last year - so even if your £1m gain was not imaginary, we still would be barely breaking even. And that's before we take into account the effect on our income of being in the Championship.

Who knows how much the share issue will raise? Less than it would have done, thanks to the idiots in HoH and the like.

I think it's generally accepted that we are seeing improvements this season - but that's from LD and AS rather than from "the gain".

Will it prevent a loss? Well the debt holiday will certainly help, but I'm not privy to the current financial statements of the club - I doubt many on here are.

How will we cope next year? I expect that if next year is as bad as last year, that STF will put his hand in his pocket again and bail us out. Isn't that what he has always done?

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:33 PM
Hi GH

You're going to have to help me here. Are you saying the bank wanted out - because we are revaluing our assets every year??

Not saying that...what I am saying is that the bank do not agree with the previous lower valuation and would laugh at the current one from a banking perspective.

The assets would never sell anywhere close to the value......we all know that on here...even the most ferocious supports of STF agree with that !

the question is why increase the valuation when a major loss is announced......i think any sensible person knows why.

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:38 PM
Not saying that...what I am saying is that the bank do not agree with the previous lower valuation and would laugh at the current one from a banking perspective.

...

the question is why increase the valuation when a major loss is announced......i think any sensible person knows why.I don't understand this latter question. The revaluation doesn't go through the P&L so what difference does it make? If intelligent users of the accounts (e.g. the bank) know to disregard the asset valuations, what does it matter whether the assets are revalued or not? And what does the revaluation have to do with the P&L loss???

Surely any sensible person realises that the two items are not in any way related. Don't they?

CropleyWasGod
01-02-2015, 07:38 PM
I'm 8000 miles away, but feel strangely drawn to this thread.

How can a repayment holiday on an interest-free loan have a positive effect of £500k on our profit?

greenginger
01-02-2015, 07:38 PM
I don't think the parachute payment has been shown in any Accounts yet. It will be in 2015 accounts.

The non charge of any repayments won't show either, just the bottom line will be a bit healthier.

Caversham Green
01-02-2015, 07:39 PM
Serious competition is about asking questions CG and then debating the various points without stupid comments.

Nothing worse than someone who is opinionated but can not back the opinion with intelligent comments to encourage debate !

Hence stupid and personal comments !

I thought this site was about debate and opinions.

Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Do you really think post #205 starts a "good news topic"?

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:42 PM
Would you or anybody else have had a run at taking over the club if we did not have a completed fit for purpose stadium, state of the art training facilities and manageable debt?
Is it just that the club has suddenly become attractive because our current owners have achieved all these things?

I keep hearing from the same group of people ( not you Centreline ) that Hibs have a manageable debt.....

yet to hear the logic that supports that view ???

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:43 PM
... the 1.5m of working capital the club needs in the summer ...


You mentioned £1.5m working capital previously what is this? A football club doesn't need inventory or to fund debtors..we get cash up front or on the day & pay players as we go. You don't mean transfer fees do you?


No answer to this one. Sometimes it seems that there are numbers plucked from the air, and then presented as insurmountable obstacles. When did we last need £1.5m in the summer? If GH is talking about transfer fees, then the summer would be too late to buy for this season. But it can't be transfer fees, because that would not be described as working capital. GH - are you saying that you believe our season ticket income will be down by this amount, on the assumption that we don't go straight back up? Maybe that's what you mean?

Hi GH - you seem to be in the mood to answer questions - how about this one above? What do we need the £1.5m working capital for in the summer?

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:45 PM
How can a repayment holiday on an interest-free loan have a positive effect of £500k on our profit?Gosh, now I'm embarrassed!

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:46 PM
Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Do you really think post #205 starts a "good news topic"?

What are you talking about....good news topic ?

Why you bothering to comment if your not interested ?

if you want a debate re stupid does mate.......bring it on with proper debate and questions....i

grunt
01-02-2015, 07:49 PM
What are you talking about....good news topic ?



A good news topic for debate this Sunday morning.



This.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:55 PM
Hi GH - you seem to be in the mood to answer questions - how about this one above? What do we need the £1.5m working capital for in the summer?

I mentioned the working capital amount of 1.5.......What made you mention summer though ?

Am in mood to answer questions

Caversham Green
01-02-2015, 07:55 PM
What are you talking about....good news topic ?

Why you bothering to comment if your not interested ?

if you want a debate re stupid does mate.......bring it on with proper debate and questions....i

"Good news topic" is quoting you directly. Were you being serious when you used those words or were they a stupid comment - a bit like Blackpool hibs?

I am interested - I intend to put a fair bit of money into the share issue, and I remain interested in why you consider the lack of underwriting to be a weakness in this specific case. There are further points I may or may not raise once I have your views on that.

CropleyWasGod
01-02-2015, 07:55 PM
I mentioned the working capital amount of 1.5.......What made you mention summer though ?

Am in mood to answer questions
So can you answer mine?:)

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 07:56 PM
This.

Got you !!

Its clearly good news as the club is better off to the tune of 1m this year....without it....we would be 1m more negative in the accounts

Benny Brazil
01-02-2015, 08:01 PM
What are you talking about....good news topic ?

Why you bothering to comment if your not interested ?

if you want a debate re stupid does mate.......bring it on with proper debate and questions....i

Sorry for going slightly off topic here.

GH - maybe I am doing you a disservice here so apologies if thats the case - however the only threads I think I've ever seen you post on are ones to do with the financial side of the club - nothing to do with how the team are playing or any transfer targets etc. You posted a bit last year and then disappeared. Now your back and posting about the HSL / financial issues - maybe it is just the cynic in me but I get a feeling with your posts there is some underlying reason for you posting these questions - maybe you are just looking for a positive debate on the clubs finances - but it feels to me like you are fishing for something.
We are all Hibs fans at the end of the day and we all want the best for our club and debate about the club is obviously what this forum is for - I am just not convinced that debate is what you are looking for here.

Again my apologies if I have picked up the wrong end of the stick and am reading more into your posts than what is there.

Global Hibby
01-02-2015, 08:03 PM
"Good news topic" is quoting you directly. Were you being serious when you used those words or were they a stupid comment - a bit like Blackpool hibs?

I am interested - I intend to put a fair bit of money into the share issue, and I remain interested in why you consider the lack of underwriting to be a weakness in this specific case. There are further points I may or may not raise once I have your views on that.

Its great news for this year but if we post a loss having had the gain then am sure you can see figure out the impact for the following year.

The plus 1m for this current year would be -250k for next.......thats a huge movement to handle......

the 250 comes from

500k loan repayment and parachute payment of 250 to be clear.

CentreLine
01-02-2015, 08:05 PM
I keep hearing from the same group of people ( not you Centreline ) that Hibs have a manageable debt.....

yet to hear the logic that supports that view ???

I take your point with what you say but you have ignored the first and most important part of the question. It seems to me that it is only because of the interventions of our current owner that the club is attractive now to takeover bids. Do you accept that?

grunt
01-02-2015, 08:06 PM
I mentioned the working capital amount of 1.5.......What made you mention summer though ?


The 2.5 m would be used up pretty quickly to support the 1.5m of working capital the club needs in the summer ...You appear to be having a little trouble remembering your own posts.