Hands On Hibs - No Substance. Unhelpful Voice

[bigwheel]

I notice (via twitter) HOH have come out against the HSL initiative today. No real surprise, as to endorse it, complete disempowers them. What is troubling me more if the deeply negative and nasty nature of the tone of their communications.

They are basically implying now that this scheme is a scam. To me, this group, set up to be a group of activists to seek truth and justice for Hibs (my take on their original intent)...have embarrassed themselves through a whole suite of wild claims.. None of these have turned out to be true. In fact, the HSL proposal makes specific commitments on the future ownership of the ground and academy..

I am tired by their agenda now. It feels much more about their ego, than what is right for our football club. They need to think deeply about what they wanted to achieve, and assess it against what HSL is setting about to do...just because it's not their way, doesn't mean it won't create the right outcome...if they continue on this path of divisive communication, it will do nothing to create unity across Hibs fans...Stick to doing community good, such as the food bank collection (amazing achievement!), as your attempts to get involved in the ownership affairs of our clubs are far from helpful or constructive.

If any HOH activities wants to discuss this one to one feel free to PM me...as currently, I have no sense you are doing anything helpful for our club.

[BroxburnHibee]

Their whole approach was farcical from the beginning.

[easty]

Their whole approach was farcical from the beginning.

That's my take on it too. I thought they were full of ***** before, and I still think they're full of *****, I don't see that changing.

[Brightside]

They are calling him Farmer Tom...its a disgrace to be honest.

[bighairyfaeleith]

bunch of fannies

[Capt Mainwaring]

Baseless allegations from a group with personal agendas getting in the way of whats best for Hibernian FC. Disappointing

[Pretty Boy]

Their key reason for existing has proven to be a lie without foundation.

They are desperately scrambling about trying to make themselves relevant. Better to bow out now with whatever grace they have imo.

[Bronson]

They are calling him Farmer Tom...its a disgrace to be honest.

Incredibly disrespectful. Do they think ridiculing the man who saved us from extinction is any way to win fans around?

They're a hindrance to the club moving forward IMO, very cynical about hibs' proposals yet never seemed to be able to show any substance to their own ideas.

All the key figures they had backing them originally (Pat Stanton, Jackie Mac) have backed this new hibs share issue, that pretty much renders HOH irrelevant now.

[PatHead]

Incredibly disrespectful. Do they think ridiculing the man who saved us from extinction is any way to win fans around?

They're a hindrance to the club moving forward IMO, very cynical about hibs' proposals yet never seemed to be able to show any substance to their own ideas.

All the key figures they had backing them originally (Pat Stanton, Jackie Mac) have backed this new hibs share issue, that pretty much renders HOH irrelevant now.

Is that not BuyHibs?

[grunt]

Better to bow out now with whatever grace they have imo.Think this is impossible.

[Hibby_Paul]

Who are some of the names behind this group now? Any well known faces?

Agree they are not helping anything at moment!

[Glorious St Pat]

I think their contention was that money raised from the initiative would partly go to repaying the 5m debt rather than "sporting ambition". They claim this from meetings with Dempster. What are peoples thought on this?

[Bronson]

Is that not BuyHibs?

Hmm, you could be right actually. Although I'm sure Jackie Mac supported HOH.

[grunt]

For those of you who don't do Facebook. The emphasis in bold is my own.


PLEASE SHARE

THIS IS NOT COMMUNITY OWNERSHIP. IT'S A SHAKE DOWN.

Hands On Hibs have today written to Hibernian owner Tom Farmer confirming our decision to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals published last week. HOH made this decision after considering independent financial advice and consulting our activists and supporters. ...

NO TRANSPARENCY

Last Friday, as part of our consultation process, Hands On Hibs met with the board of Hibernian Supporters Limited. HSL is a body created by the football club Board to promote the Farmer/Petrie proposals. During the course of this meeting it was confirmed that no details of the £5million debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie) would be made available to the supporters. HOH reiterate our position that without total transparency no fans should donate to this scheme.

NOT AN INVESTMENT, JUST ANOTHER DONATION.

The board of HSL agreed with Hands On Hibs that the Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent a sound investment. In reality fans are being asked to donate money toward the club's running costs. While the club claims none of the money donated by fans will go to existing shareholders the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).

The argument that Hibs fans should donate money to this scheme just because we are Hibs fans is spurious. Manipulating the emotional ties supporters have with Hibernian Football Club is wrong. When at least some of that money is being used to pay a debt (the details of which are secret) to a multi millionaire it is immoral.

HIBS DESERVE BETTER

Presenting the Farmer/Petrie proposals as a take it or leave it proposition is a serious error on the part of the owner and the board. Hands On Hibs remain convinced the only way to achieve unity between the supporters and the club is for Tom Farmer to personally intervene in this change process. Without his engagement in this process it will fail.

The Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent community ownership or a realistic beginning in that journey. Hibernian Football Club is at a critical juncture. We reject the arguments of HSL that this might not be a good deal but it is the only deal available. Hands On Hibs will not accept a bad deal for Hibs supporters and this is a bad deal.

Hands On Hibs commend the Hibernian supporters already taking action against these proposals (see image below). HOH remain committed to working with other Hibs supporters to achieve the very best deal possible for Hibernian Football Club in the long term, the supporters and broader community.


And this rather classic reply to some criticism:


Just a reminder HOH are happy to engage with Hibs fans however people making insulting and provocative posts are wasting their time. People will notice we do not go on other Hibs fans groups pages abusing them. That is because we respect their right to support the Board and Tom Farmer. All we ask is that they respect our right to campaign for change. Thank you.

[Mikey]

Do we know who gave HOH their independent financial advice? It would be good if they could come on here and explain their thinking.

[Winston Ingram]

I notice (via twitter) HOH have come out against the HSL initiative today. No real surprise, as to endorse it, complete disempowers them. What is troubling me more if the deeply negative and nasty nature of the tone of their communications.

They are basically implying now that this scheme is a scam. To me, this group, set up to be a group of activists to seek truth and justice for Hibs (my take on their original intent)...have embarrassed themselves through a whole suite of wild claims.. None of these have turned out to be true. In fact, the HSL proposal makes specific commitments on the future ownership of the ground and academy..

I am tired by their agenda now. It feels much more about their ego, than what is right for our football club. They need to think deeply about what they wanted to achieve, and assess it against what HSL is setting about to do...just because it's not their way, doesn't mean it won't create the right outcome...if they continue on this path of divisive communication, it will do nothing to create unity across Hibs fans...Stick to doing community good, such as the food bank collection (amazing achievement!), as your attempts to get involved in the ownership affairs of our clubs are far from helpful or constructive.

If any HOH activities wants to discuss this one to one feel free to PM me...as currently, I have no sense you are doing anything helpful for our club.

Totally agree with this. They give me the impression that they are a total bunch of mouthy amateurs who speak before putting their brain in gear.

After the accounts were published last week they came out with a huge Twitter rant about how terrible all this was and then finished by saying they planned to get financial advice about what it all meant. Anyone with half a brain cell would have got the advice first, then if needed, make a statement.

I wouldn't trust that lot to run a bath.

[Wilson]

I wouldn't trust that lot to run a bath.

They wouldn't run a bath. They'd let someone else run it and then claim that person was creaming the suds from the top of it.

[marinello59]

I think their contention was that money raised from the initiative would partly go to repaying the 5m debt rather than "sporting ambition". They claim this from meetings with Dempster. What are peoples thought on this?

Why don't you ask the 'leading light in HoH' that you spoke to the other day, the one that convinced you the whole thing was a con. Do you really want peoples thoughts or are you just taking a break from your trolling on your Anniversary thread?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Do we know who gave HOH their independent financial advice? It would be good if they could come on here and explain their thinking.

Maybe he can do us a deal on advice to buy shares.

[jacomo]

I think their contention was that money raised from the initiative would partly go to repaying the 5m debt rather than "sporting ambition". They claim this from meetings with Dempster. What are peoples thought on this?

The club have said that the property it owns is worth £25m and is owned by the company. There is also a debt of £5m which is owed by the company.

Most rational people understand that a debt has to be repaid at some point. Now, it turns out that this debt is owed to another company owned by Farmer, not a bank, but the principle remains the same. In this case, I think we can assume that the terms of this debt are more favourable than they would be from a bank.

Now the owner has offered supporters a chance to own up to 51% of the club for a total amount of £2.5m. Supporters can choose whether or not they wish to get involved, but - as the club themselves have said - they should understand that this is unlikely to be an investment that will make you any money.

The process to buy these shares is a little complicated, but the idea seems straightforward.

What do HoH want? What is their problem with this? A month ago it was all rumours about asset stripping, but that has been shown to be nonsense.

Either they are fools or they are deliberately muck-raking.

EDIT: The sporting ambition bit. Presumably Hibs has a business plan which shows how it can operate a football club AND meet its debt obligations. But it's true that we will struggle to make ends meet while we are out of the top tier... this is my main reservation for doing this fan ownership thing now. Still, it seems fairly clear that shares bought by fans = cash for club! NOT cash for Farmer.

[grunt]

Either they are fools or they are deliberately muck-raking.Or both?

[bigwheel]

Do we know who gave HOH their independent financial advice? It would be good if they could come on here and explain their thinking.

That's just it though...it's all accusation and dirt slinging without any back up or substance ...

[Iain G]

They wouldn't run a bath. They'd let someone else run it and then claim that person was creaming the suds from the top of it.

Maybe they should put in an offer to buy The Rangers, sounds about the same level as Dave King and the Bear Faced Three...

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I think their contention was that money raised from the initiative would partly go to repaying the 5m debt rather than "sporting ambition". They claim this from meetings with Dempster. What are peoples thought on this?

They also "claimed" that STF was stifling money from us and going to move us to Straiton. They are full of unsubstantiated bull****

[Ronniekirk]

They are just alienating themselves further from the majority of the support ,you would think by now the penny would have dropped .

[Dashing Bob S]

I don't think some of their utterances or confrontational style has been helpful. However, I think they are right to highlight that if the 51% threshold of fan in shares is not reached, then all investors are simply (at least in the short term) contributing to the running costs of the club. Fine, if those are players transfers/contracts, many will invest gladly and should be encouraged to do so. If though, the running costs are bank loans etc, then it becomes a different issue. Many fans will baulk at paying this, and rightly so. More clarification and guarantees needed.

[CallumLaidlaw]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

[matty_f]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

That's a disgrace, it really is.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Hands on Hibs is about 4 or 5 morons with nothing better to do than shout and bawl like toddlers until someone pays them attention. Anyone who takes them seriously is every bit as stupid as they are.

[Gerard]

IMO the HSL is a good one for our club and the fans. I will be supporting this plan as I believe in it and the people who are part of HSL.:greengrin HOH IMO is not putting a credible option and as such I can noy support it.

[Dashing Bob S]

I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

[Weststandwanab]

That's a disgrace, it really is.

I could not agree more


I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

I would also agree here.

[Ozyhibby]

I doubt many people take HoH seriously. Attention seeking nonsense from start to finish.

[marinello59]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

Ah, this takes me back to my brief flirtation with the Workers Revolutionary Party back in the eighties and the warm glow of nostalgia is currently wrapped round me like a blanket. We'd produce fliers containing outlandish claims and deflect criticism by pointing out the good works we were doing. (Youth skill centres although I'm not sure we actually trained anybody.) Are HoH a bunch of Trotskyists? Can we revive the Loony lefty label just for them? Is Wolfie Smith involved? We should be told.
Of course back in the day we really were loony lefties. Mark Lawrenson was the football expert for the Party newspaper. HoH are going to have to up their game to top that for loonyness.

[Andy74]

I don't think some of their utterances or confrontational style has been helpful. However, I think they are right to highlight that if the 51% threshold of fan in shares is not reached, then all investors are simply (at least in the short term) contributing to the running costs of the club. Fine, if those are players transfers/contracts, many will invest gladly and should be encouraged to do so. If though, the running costs are bank loans etc, then it becomes a different issue. Many fans will baulk at paying this, and rightly so. More clarification and guarantees needed.
Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

[Brightside]

I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see this proposed model delivering fan ownership at Hibs, at least within five years.

I can see a lot of people buying shares, and feeling that they have a stake in the club, which is good, though ownership and control will stay in the same hands.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I do question what the ultimate aim of all this is.

I believe Leanne Dempster is genuine in wishing fans to become more involved in the running of the club.

Not sure about STF & RP. Neither have historically been big on talking about their own visions for the club.

Thats just wrong. 51% will go to fan ownership (or ownership away from STF) STF hands it over...says raise 2.5m for it..then i'll give you the 2.5m back...and people still think he is at it?

[Winston Ingram]

STF has just pretty much halved our debt.

If some of my share purchase money goes towards paying him back then so be it.

If the share issue enables a strengthening of the squad, a strengthening of the clubs financial positions and a greater supporter influence in the running of the club then it's win-win for me

[marinello59]

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

Exactly. HoH were desperate to find something, anything to trash the share offer. I don't think many people will be foolish enough to think they really have found the smoking gun here.
It doesn't matter if it's fan ownership or not, bills other than the first team players wages have to be paid. Are there really people out there who think fan ownership means the fans money which we can choose to put in or not should only go towards first team wages whilst somebody else picks up the tab for the rest? I reckon most Hibs fans are brighter than that.
Playing class politics by constantly mentioning STF's millionaire status is mildly amusing though. Power to the.........Ach, whatever.:greengrin

[whiskyhibby]

That's a disgrace, it really is.

A disgrace and an embarrassment............

[Steve20]

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

[Winston Ingram]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

Who says your getting nothing back? If you want a share certificate, the option is there, go to an IFA.

[marinello59]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

We have the chance to own 51% should we choose to do so. Do that and the club is ours. I assume you supported BuyHibs? The HSL scheme is pretty similar but rather than the money raised going to the existing shareholders it is going to find our team going forward. On that basis I would expect BuyHibs to support this as they continually stated their aim was about more than just removing Petrie.
I personally have doubts this will be taken up fully because I'm not so sure the appetite is really there. But we do know the price and we do know what we have to do if we want to own the club.

[Brightside]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

51% is available to the fans. This is pretty simple stuff.

[s.a.m]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

You might be right that for some (maybe even many), fan shareholding and subscription are only viable if they know in advance that it will give them a controlling share. There will be others who want to own shares in Hibs, and support them financially, whether it is as part of a 30% fan holding or a 51% holding. If a sufficient number of fans are willing to do that, then the 51% will be fulfilled; if not, then we'll have established that there isn't really the hunger for fan ownership necessary to make it a viable model for our future.:dunno:

[AndyM_1875]

Who says your getting nothing back? If you want a share certificate, the option is there, go to an IFA.

Getting nothing back? Except as you rightly say H, the Share Certificate, the right to attend the AGM and make your voice heard and know that you own a bit of the club you support.

I'm buying direct from the club. I know I'll never see that £200 again but it doesn't really matter does it?

HoH are just a bunch of whiners. And it's the same embittered individuals over and over.
If it wasn't this, it'd be the price of the pies or something like that.

[TrinityHibs]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

That works for me a single payment so no grief from MrsTH, not bothering with an IFA and a share certificate for the wall. I would own a bit of Hibs and I am a fan so that box is ticked. As a future shareholder I am happy with the way the club is going and if the Board felt my investment was needed to support the team in any way, either through on field investment or covering running costs, I would have no issue with that. The single biggest issue I have with this process is finding an IFA to buy some shares.

[Mikey]

........the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).

Here's the answer given at the recent Q&A with LD........


Q - What exactly will all monies raised be used for? Playing staff, equipment, wages, etc?

A – It would be used in the running of the football department, so that’s wages, equipment, players, etc.

Bearing in mind that HOH have previous when it comes to making things up I know who I'm happy to believe.

And let's face it, whether you take your advice from an IFA or from HOH, we all know how much money we're going to get back in this deal. That's what happens with emotional investments!!

[Andy74]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

The point is it's a way to do both.

[jacomo]

Makes no odds. If the debt is paid from say season tickets then less of that money goes to players. It's all just income. Arguing about what pot it comes from is pointless.

:agree:

It does make me wonder why Hibs felt the need to embellish this with the 'sporting ambition' phrase. It's a classic Petrie comment - sounds good, but so vague that it makes the more cynical amongst us raise eyebrows.

I also feel that, on the back of big losses, the timing of this share issue is wrong. I've bored myself to death saying that the club should have put everything on hold and focused on getting promotion above all else. Hibs are not in a stable financial position right now, making the environment for this share issue less than ideal.

HoH are wrong but I think the club doesn't help itself at times.

[Peevemor]

:agree:

It does make me wonder why Hibs felt the need to embellish this with the 'sporting ambition' phrase. It's a classic Petrie comment - sounds good, but so vague that it makes the more cynical amongst us raise eyebrows.

Instead of just accepting it at face value.


I also feel that, on the back of big losses, the timing of this share issue is wrong. I've bored myself to death saying that the club should have put everything on hold and focused on getting promotion above all else.

Do you think this'll have a negative effect on AS and his squad? What if an extra couple of players have already been budgeted for in the January window in anticipation of the share income?


Hibs are not in a stable financial position right now, making the environment for this share issue less than ideal.

Do you think anyone buying shares will be doing so as an investment (other than emotional)? SPL, championship, whatever - outwith the ugly sisters, there's no money to be made from Scottish football.


HoH are wrong but I think the club doesn't help itself at times.

I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.

And please don't take my post as a personal attack (as you usually do). I simply happen to disagree with every point you make - is that OK?

[JimBHibees]

You do get the impression some supposed Hibs fans absolutely detest the club and are never happier than when we are struggling so they can have a pop. Incredible attack IMO.

[lucky]

The HSL proposal is basically a fans cooperative. We pull our resources and have a say in the club through our collective strength. If enough fans join the collective we will be the biggest shareholder and will control the club through our collective shareholding. Im struggling to see where the con is in this. If fans choose not to put in their cash then we continue under the stewardship of STF with less debt than before paying less interest than before. Can't see what's not to like here. HoH appear to want STF a to hand over the club and pay off the debt for nothing in return.

[Arch Stanton]

................

I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.



Absolutely. The fans who contribute get a nice warm feeling and the club gets extra money in the kitty.

People should realise that trying to discredit this approach are just making themselves look daft.

[jacomo]

Instead of just accepting it at face value.



Do you think this'll have a negative effect on AS and his squad? What if an extra couple of players have already been budgeted for in the January window in anticipation of the share income?



Do you think anyone buying shares will be doing so as an investment (other than emotional)? SPL, championship, whatever - outwith the ugly sisters, there's no money to be made from Scottish football.



I think that the club are currently playing a blinder.

And please don't take my post as a personal attack (as you usually do). I simply happen to disagree with every point you make - is that OK?

Ha! Healthy disagreement all fine by me. :wink:

The main point is that the current owner is set on change and this is his chosen way of achieving that. Personally I am happy to take the club at face value on this and the attacks on STF's integrity are wholly unjustified. HoH are clutching at straws.

Is this the ideal environment and time to launch this share issue though? No I don't think it is, and if I was LD (who was, it seems, hired to make this happen) I would have argued strongly that plans be pushed back until the club was back in the top tier.

Given that this share issue seems to be open ended with no specific time limit, I don't understand the need to launch now.

[Arch Stanton]

Ha! Healthy disagreement all fine by me. :wink:

The main point is that the current owner is set on change and this is his chosen way of achieving that. Personally I am happy to take the club at face value on this and the attacks on STF's integrity are wholly unjustified. HoH are clutching at straws.

Is this the ideal environment and time to launch this share issue though? No I don't think it is, and if I was LD (who was, it seems, hired to make this happen) I would have argued strongly that plans be pushed back until the club was back in the top tier.

Given that this share issue seems to be open ended with no specific time limit, I don't understand the need to launch now.

Whatever way you approach fan ownership it won't actually happen until fans come up with the money. It will take a long long time for Hibs' scheme to come to fruition - many many birthday and Christmass presents, but at some point the fans will own Hibs, which is a pretty nice thought, don't you think?

Anyone thinking that fan ownership is a way of replacing Farmer and Petrie in the short term can dream on - it will never happen in those timescales.

And as to you last point, the sooner started, the sooner Hibs can start using the cash and the sooner fans will finally own Hibs - nothing is acheived by holding back.

[Lago]

Hands on Hibs is about 4 or 5 morons with nothing better to do than shout and bawl like toddlers until someone pays them attention. Anyone who takes them seriously is every bit as stupid as they are.
Can someone help me out here, I have lost track of those involved in the various groups. Would someone be kind enough to name the head honchos in HOH and give me a few details on their back ground.
Cheers

[21.05.2016]

Seems to me that the HoH campaign seem to be desperate to create a war with the club and find fault in absolutely everything the club try to do. That heist poster is an embarrassment. As someone quite rightly mentioned above, it now seems to be more about their own egos and personal agendas rather than doing what is right for hibs as a club.

[Beefster]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

I'll ignore what they've done with Dempster....

The remainder is a complete embarrassment. They've not even had the professionalism to change the credits near the bottom. I can clearly read Gene Hackman, Danny DeVito and Delroy Lindo's names. Amateur.

[Bad Martini]

Some general facts to do with as you wish:

1) STF regularly gives away huge sums of his personal fortune for "no return". This is called philanthropy. In fact, he has considerable previous for it....:aok:

2) It's very clear to anyone with eyes and a semi-operational brain that nobody is "making money" from football these days, with very few notable exceptions...however, try as you may to convince your logical thinking side that this is in fact bollocks...

3) Us Hibs fans know we will never make money from the club. We also know (lets be honest folks) that we are unlikely to win hellish much any time soon. We're not really in it for the glory or the money now are we? We're in it, cause it's the right thing to do....:aok:


....I am unclear as to where any confusion exists on this offer Hibs have come up with. It's not mandatory, nobody is being frogmarched to the cashline machine to withdraw £18.75 a month and hand it over to the baddies in green.....big bad STF doesn't need the cash and probably realised a long time ago he'd never see all that money back. He doesn't NEED it. He doesnt need the aggro either...

However, if there's **** all on the telly and nae good conspiracies to discuss, we can always make one up for fun eh :rolleyes::agree:

Ach **** it, am off to sign over £18.75 for 133,333 months. There we are. Sorted. I'll sort oor future with one DD that lasts for the next 11,111 years. Barry. Club now mine. Woohoo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Winston Ingram]

Some general facts to do with as you wish:

1) STF regularly gives away huge sums of his personal fortune for "no return". This is called philanthropy. In fact, he has considerable previous for it....:aok:

2) It's very clear to anyone with eyes and a semi-operational brain that nobody is "making money" from football these days, with very few notable exceptions...however, try as you may to convince your logical thinking side that this is in fact bollocks...

3) Us Hibs fans know we will never make money from the club. We also know (lets be honest folks) that we are unlikely to win hellish much any time soon. We're not really in it for the glory or the money now are we? We're in it, cause it's the right thing to do....:aok:


....I am unclear as to where any confusion exists on this offer Hibs have come up with. It's not mandatory, nobody is being frogmarched to the cashline machine to withdraw £18.75 a month and hand it over to the baddies in green.....big bad STF doesn't need the cash and probably realised a long time ago he'd never see all that money back. He doesn't NEED it. He doesnt need the aggro either...

However, if there's **** all on the telly and nae good conspiracies to discuss, we can always make one up for fun eh :rolleyes::agree:

Ach **** it, am off to sign over £18.75 for 133,333 months. There we are. Sorted. I'll sort oor future with one DD that lasts for the next 11,111 years. Barry. Club now mine. Woohoo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Top post:thumbsup:

[SunshineOnLeith]

Can someone help me out here, I have lost track of those involved in the various groups. Would someone be kind enough to name the head honchos in HOH and give me a few details on their back ground.
Cheers

Some gadge that runs a boxing gym and an IRA sympathiser. I for their names.

[Lago]

Some gadge that runs a boxing gym and an IRA sympathiser. I for their names.
Well that sums it up nicely, guess I can just dismiss them from my thoughts.

[schinkenotto]

Some general facts to do with as you wish:

1) STF regularly gives away huge sums of his personal fortune for "no return". This is called philanthropy. In fact, he has considerable previous for it....:aok:

2) It's very clear to anyone with eyes and a semi-operational brain that nobody is "making money" from football these days, with very few notable exceptions...however, try as you may to convince your logical thinking side that this is in fact bollocks...

3) Us Hibs fans know we will never make money from the club. We also know (lets be honest folks) that we are unlikely to win hellish much any time soon. We're not really in it for the glory or the money now are we? We're in it, cause it's the right thing to do....:aok:


....I am unclear as to where any confusion exists on this offer Hibs have come up with. It's not mandatory, nobody is being frogmarched to the cashline machine to withdraw £18.75 a month and hand it over to the baddies in green.....big bad STF doesn't need the cash and probably realised a long time ago he'd never see all that money back. He doesn't NEED it. He doesnt need the aggro either...

However, if there's **** all on the telly and nae good conspiracies to discuss, we can always make one up for fun eh :rolleyes::agree:

Ach **** it, am off to sign over £18.75 for 133,333 months. There we are. Sorted. I'll sort oor future with one DD that lasts for the next 11,111 years. Barry. Club now mine. Woohoo. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Beautifully put ,sir!

[Caversham Green]

:agree:

It does make me wonder why Hibs felt the need to embellish this with the 'sporting ambition' phrase. It's a classic Petrie comment - sounds good, but so vague that it makes the more cynical amongst us raise eyebrows.

I also feel that, on the back of big losses, the timing of this share issue is wrong. I've bored myself to death saying that the club should have put everything on hold and focused on getting promotion above all else. Hibs are not in a stable financial position right now, making the environment for this share issue less than ideal.

HoH are wrong but I think the club doesn't help itself at times.

I think you're rather missing the point here. The debt (and other running costs) will have to be paid regardless of whether this share issue takes place or not. That means that the proceeds of the issue is extra cash which can either go towards the 'sporting ambitions' of the club or to the existing shareholders. The club is absolutely right to be making the 'sporting ambition' comment and it should be clear to anyone with more than one braincell that Leeann Demspter did not say otherwise to HoH.

[1875STEVE]

Some gadge that runs a boxing gym and an IRA sympathiser. I for their names.

And a former Hibs "casual". :rolleyes:

[Pretty Boy]

And a former Hibs "casual". :rolleyes:

That's the same person who runs the boxing club. In his defence, and I don't support anything HOH have to say, he had done a hell of a lot of good work with his boxing gyms.

[Lago]

That's the same person who runs the boxing club. In his defence, and I don't support anything HOH have to say, he had done a hell of a lot of good work with his boxing gyms.
Sounds as if that where he should concentrate his efforts.

[hibbymac]

And a former Hibs "casual". :rolleyes:

:agree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2yO6yWak_o

[jacomo]

I think you're rather missing the point here. The debt (and other running costs) will have to be paid regardless of whether this share issue takes place or not. That means that the proceeds of the issue is extra cash which can either go towards the 'sporting ambitions' of the club or to the existing shareholders. The club is absolutely right to be making the 'sporting ambition' comment and it should be clear to anyone with more than one braincell that Leeann Demspter did not say otherwise to HoH.

With respect, I don't think I am. :wink:

This sporting ambition phrase is meaningless to me. But it's the kind of 'answer' that just invites more questions... if I buy shares, will my money be ring-fenced for the playing budget? Etc.

My point is - either say something is ring-fenced or say 'all money will go to the club'. Don't use a hollow phrase that gives people a perceived reason to get upset.

[Dashing Bob S]

Thats just wrong. 51% will go to fan ownership (or ownership away from STF) STF hands it over...says raise 2.5m for it..then i'll give you the 2.5m back...and people still think he is at it?

Don't think he's 'at it' at all. He's cleverly testing the supporters commitment to fan ownership. If the take up is huge, fan ownership. If not, fans still put money into the club and ripped off/or have a bigger stake and greater involvement, depending on your view.

[Pete]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

I don't see this on the HOH Facebook page or twitter feed.

Releasing something like that would totally finish off any sort of reputation they once had.

Work of a lone, rogue idiot?

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't see this on the HOH Facebook page or twitter feed.

Releasing something like that would totally finish off any sort of reputation they once had.

Work of a lone, rogue idiot?

Glorious St...............

[ancient hibee]

With respect, I don't think I am. :wink:

This sporting ambition phrase is meaningless to me. But it's the kind of 'answer' that just invites more questions... if I buy shares, will my money be ring-fenced for the playing budget? Etc.

My point is - either say something is ring-fenced or say 'all money will go to the club'. Don't use a hollow phrase that gives people a perceived reason to get upset.

It seems clear that the term "money will be used to fund sporting ambition"means that the money will be used to fund sporting ambition.Unless these words have taken on a different meaning."All money will go to the club"which of course it will gives people the chance to say it won't be used to fund sporting ambition.:greengrin

[BSEJVT]

They may as well just add another £200 onto a season ticket then? This should be about getting the club into the hands of the fans. Not just paying more for the running costs of the club and getting nothing back. If this goes ahead and Farmer and Petrie are still running the show, then what's the point?

Stunned to see you criticising the club and its owners - not

If the supporters come up with enough cash to buy 51% of the shares they will hold a majority shareholding

What's so difficult to understand about that?

Or is your proposal that if the supporters come up with enough to buy 10% they should be given the other 41% just so as certain people's agenda in removing STF & RP from the club can come to fruition?

Whilst may folk would like this to happen just as many wouldn't

Its one of the perils of living in a democracy

[Andy74]

I don't see this on the HOH Facebook page or twitter feed.

Releasing something like that would totally finish off any sort of reputation they once had.

Work of a lone, rogue idiot?

They seem to miss the fact the cash goes to Hibs and not Sir Tom. Do they also follow the holding company writing off £4.5m? Funny way to go about a heist!

[CallumLaidlaw]

I don't see this on the HOH Facebook page or twitter feed.

Releasing something like that would totally finish off any sort of reputation they once had.

Work of a lone, rogue idiot?

Is the gym run by the same person as HOH?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/20/d5a2eff8ed20d8062863750eb9b619f9.jpg

[s.a.m]

Simon Pia (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/515241991613853697/IDqueh-l_bigger.jpegJim Slaven‏@JimSlaven (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven) 26m26 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441)
They're on a mission from God.. @IrvineWelsh (https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh) @SimonPia1 (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) @williamsonkev (https://twitter.com/williamsonkev) @JakeWelsh10 (https://twitter.com/JakeWelsh10) @FevinKinlay (https://twitter.com/FevinKinlay) @FourInHandHSC (https://twitter.com/FourInHandHSC) #Hibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hibs?src=hash) pic.twitter.com/eGFyYnmlgO (http://t.co/eGFyYnmlgO)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7zy-fhCIAA6-Up.jpg
(https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441/photo/1)
Not entirely sure I get this one...:Ummm: (though I may be the only person on the planet who hasn't seen the Blues' Brothers, so I'm probably missing something obvious)

[Sergio sledge]

Simon Pia (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/515241991613853697/IDqueh-l_bigger.jpegJim Slaven‏@JimSlaven (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven) 26m26 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441)
They're on a mission from God.. @IrvineWelsh (https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh) @SimonPia1 (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) @williamsonkev (https://twitter.com/williamsonkev) @JakeWelsh10 (https://twitter.com/JakeWelsh10) @FevinKinlay (https://twitter.com/FevinKinlay) @FourInHandHSC (https://twitter.com/FourInHandHSC) #Hibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hibs?src=hash) pic.twitter.com/eGFyYnmlgO (http://t.co/eGFyYnmlgO)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7zy-fhCIAA6-Up.jpg
(https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441/photo/1)
Not entirely sure I get this one...:Ummm: (though I may be the only person on the planet who hasn't seen the Blues' Brothers, so I'm probably missing something obvious)

Why have they missed Jackie McNamara off that poster? They've listed the rest of the HSL board but not him.

[marinello59]

Why have they missed Jackie McNamara off that poster? They've listed the rest of the HSL board but not him.

He was previously mentioned as being a supporter of HoH. It won't suit their agenda to mention him now.

[Pretty Boy]

Simon Pia (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/515241991613853697/IDqueh-l_bigger.jpegJim Slaven‏@JimSlaven (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven) 26m26 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441)
They're on a mission from God.. @IrvineWelsh (https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh) @SimonPia1 (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) @williamsonkev (https://twitter.com/williamsonkev) @JakeWelsh10 (https://twitter.com/JakeWelsh10) @FevinKinlay (https://twitter.com/FevinKinlay) @FourInHandHSC (https://twitter.com/FourInHandHSC) #Hibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hibs?src=hash) pic.twitter.com/eGFyYnmlgO (http://t.co/eGFyYnmlgO)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7zy-fhCIAA6-Up.jpg
(https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441/photo/1)
Not entirely sure I get this one...:Ummm: (though I may be the only person on the planet who hasn't seen the Blues' Brothers, so I'm probably missing something obvious)

Simon Pia is just a sad, bitter man. The less said about Jim Slaven the better although if I turn up kneecapped now chances are he'll know something about it.

[Caversham Green]

With respect, I don't think I am. :wink:

This sporting ambition phrase is meaningless to me. But it's the kind of 'answer' that just invites more questions... if I buy shares, will my money be ring-fenced for the playing budget? Etc.

My point is - either say something is ring-fenced or say 'all money will go to the club'. Don't use a hollow phrase that gives people a perceived reason to get upset.

The term 'ring-fencing' implies a specified project with a target price - this has neither so using that description would be misleading. Precisely what the money is used for will depend on how much is raised (if HoH had their way it would be nothing) but in the meantime the club had to use a general term that reassures potential investors that the money will not go straight to Farmer and Petrie or be used to pay down the debt - 'all money will go to the club' doesn't do that (that really is a hollow phrase) but the sporting ambition comment fits it nicely.

[bigwheel]

Simon Pia is just a sad, bitter man. The less said about Jim Slaven the better although if I turn up kneecapped now chances are he'll know something about it.


I know nothing about Slaven, but I completely agree with your point on Pia....I suspect some of his fantasies are driving some of their views...

Martin

[SunshineOnLeith]

I know nothing about Slaven, but I completely agree with your point on Pia....I suspect some of his fantasies are driving some of their views...

Martin

Slaven's the IRA fanboy.

[matty_f]

The easiest way to look at it is either with or without the share issue, x amount of money is going towards debt. X is, presumably, a fixed amount.

How much money the first team gets will depend on what's left after the debt payments are made.

If no shares are bought, then the money available will be £2.5m less than if all the shares are bought.

There's no shakedown or con, and it's absolutely scandalous that seemingly intelligent folk like Simon Pia are pushing the idea that there is.

What's their agenda?

[Hibbyradge]

I could not agree more



I agree more.

[Pete]

Simon Pia (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/515241991613853697/IDqueh-l_bigger.jpegJim Slaven‏@JimSlaven (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven) 26m26 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441)
They're on a mission from God.. @IrvineWelsh (https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh) @SimonPia1 (https://twitter.com/SimonPia1) @williamsonkev (https://twitter.com/williamsonkev) @JakeWelsh10 (https://twitter.com/JakeWelsh10) @FevinKinlay (https://twitter.com/FevinKinlay) @FourInHandHSC (https://twitter.com/FourInHandHSC) #Hibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hibs?src=hash) pic.twitter.com/eGFyYnmlgO (http://t.co/eGFyYnmlgO)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7zy-fhCIAA6-Up.jpg
(https://twitter.com/JimSlaven/status/557587610382909441/photo/1)
Not entirely sure I get this one...:Ummm: (though I may be the only person on the planet who hasn't seen the Blues' Brothers, so I'm probably missing something obvious)



Maybe it's time to starve these people of the oxygen of publicity.

[marinello59]

Maybe it's time to starve these people of the oxygen of publicity.
They certainly get more attention than they deserve. I hope the club doesn't waste any more time talking to them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Simon Pia is just a sad, bitter man. The less said about Jim Slaven the better although if I turn up kneecapped now chances are he'll know something about it.
Simon Pia tweeted that the share issue was a con. He was asked to say why he thought so.

He hasn't replied.

[Malthibby]

Perhaps if enough of us sign up to the offer the negativity will fade away, or success will at least shine
a light on anyone still attacking the club.
Utterly not itk, but I'm so saddened that it appears that some folk are peddling their own agenda in the
face of the most positive messages coming out of the club in years.
GG

[Mikey]

Perhaps if enough of us sign up to the offer the negativity will fade away, or success will at least shine
a light on anyone still attacking the club.
Utterly not itk, but I'm so saddened that it appears that some folk are peddling their own agenda in the
face of the most positive messages coming out of the club in years.
GG

One thing that will happen, albeit not overnight, is while they're outside with their placards and posters the rest of us will be inside making decisions that affect our club.

[lEXO]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

Disgusting. They can ****** off.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Can the club not be doing something to silence them?? I get that there's free speech and what not but I'm also pretty sure that you can't just make up lies about folk like they are doing. Pretty sure you can't just fire up posters publicly slating folk either.

[Sergey]

Can the club not be doing something to silence them?? I get that there's free speech and what not but I'm also pretty sure that you can't just make up lies about folk like they are doing. Pretty sure you can't just fire up posters publicly slating folk either.

I think they've put a banning order on Brad Welsh after he was arrested at the PBS dishing out flyers.

He was certainly prohibited from the ground at the 'beath match.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I think they've put a banning order on Brad Welsh after he was arrested at the PBS dishing out flyers.

He was certainly prohibited from the ground at the 'beath match.

Had heard about an incident at the PBS. Hadn't heard about a banning order though

[Sergey]

Had heard about an incident at the PBS. Hadn't heard about a banning order though

He posted on Twitter that he had an unwanted ticked (his own) as he was photographed next to a steward who refused him access.

Don't know if that constitutes a banning order, but they clearly refused him entry to ER, and that might go some way in the latest slur against the club.

[Brightside]

I'd support a banning order for anyone spreading this stuff around.

[kano]

I think they've put a banning order on Brad Welsh after he was arrested at the PBS dishing out flyers.

He was certainly prohibited from the ground at the 'beath match.

You thought wrong... Again. Hibs have not banned Brad Welsh.

[Mikey]

Do we know who gave HOH their independent financial advice? It would be good if they could come on here and explain their thinking.


You thought wrong... Again. Hibs have not banned Brad Welsh.

Can you confirm who HOH got their independent financial advice from?

Ta.

[Sergey]

You thought wrong... Again. Hibs have not banned Brad Welsh.

That's good to hear.

He did post this on Twitter.

[Peevemor]

Can you confirm who HOH got their independent financial advice from?

Ta.

:dunno:

http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article1501733.ece/alternates/s615/Hearts%20Vladimir%20Romanov.jpg

[basehibby]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/6b7660e0ca7c6ffded0c3fb94edb2f0f.jpg

You would hope that this is merely the work of a bitter Yam rather than one of our own :rolleyes:

[basehibby]

Got to say I just do NOT get where HoH are coming from.

Petrie & Farmer have rightly come in for criticism after presiding over the club's relegation at just about the worst time imaginable.

HOWEVER - from what I can see the fans have been listened to and the proposal on the table is a direct response to that.

The proposal is to effectively put the club in the hands of the fans - and at a knock down price from what I can see - while using the cash that the sale of that equity in the club generates NOT to compensate the existing owners but to benefit the football team.

Prior to that, the club's debt has apparently been halved as well as being owed now not to the bank but to Farmer - on what I gather are favourable terms for the club - this has had the same effect as Farmer pumping c £5M of his own cash into the club.

So lets do the maths -
the fans are being offered half of Hibs for £2.5M
That would value the club at £5M
The club debt is now worth c £5M
So - ignoring the annual turnover (which I'm sure is usually taken into account when valuing a business) that would mean that if the stadium and East Mains together are worth anything more than £0 then the fans are on a good deal.

Now, I'm no expert in property values but I'm pretty certain that these figures don't just add up to good value - they add up to an EXCELLENT deal for the fans - especially when you consider the money raised has been proposed to be plowed back into the business rather than to compensate the seller as might be expected in a normal business transaction.

Considering all this I just do not see any merit in the objections being raised by HoH. The argument that servicing a debt run up by the football club in the course of it's business is somehow morally wrong is just complete nonsense - the fact that STF is a rich man is neither here nor there in that equation (however, I do agree that the terms of the loan would be pertinent information to any transaction).

I would therefore propose that HoH either come out with a CONVINCING argument as to why this is not a good deal or just screw the nut! And if they can't support it then at least stop throwing their weight in the way of it's being a success.

[Peevemor]

I see BuyHibs are criticising the plan too.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/buyhibs-hits-out-at-easter-road-fan-ownership-plans-1-3667697

It's a petty they had nothing to offer since they're so brilliant!

[Beefster]

I see BuyHibs are criticising the plan too.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/buyhibs-hits-out-at-easter-road-fan-ownership-plans-1-3667697

It's a petty they had nothing to offer since they're so brilliant!

Another group trying to dodge irrelevance IMHO.

Did they ever give an update on pledges to date?

[marinello59]

Another group trying to dodge irrelevance IMHO.

Did they ever give an update on pledges to date?

Yet one of their Directors is backing it. The HSL model is similar to their own and a price has been set as they asked. I guess it really was just another Petrie Out campaign.

EDIT. - It's the Chairman of BuyHibs who is backing the clubs proposals.

[matty_f]

I see BuyHibs are criticising the plan too.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/buyhibs-hits-out-at-easter-road-fan-ownership-plans-1-3667697

It's a petty they had nothing to offer since they're so brilliant!

BuyHibs' views are probably the most ironic thing I have ever read.

[DarlingtonHibee]

BuyHibs' views are probably the most ironic thing I have ever read.

Any chance of getting a spokemans name for HOH of BH - or is it the owrk of a certain journo ?

[marinello59]

Any chance of getting a spokemans name for HOH of BH - or is it the owrk of a certain journo ?

Given that they are getting much more press coverage than they deserve you may well be right.

[NYHibby]

I see BuyHibs are criticising the plan too.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/buyhibs-hits-out-at-easter-road-fan-ownership-plans-1-3667697

It's a petty they had nothing to offer since they're so brilliant!

Is there a typo in the article or are they actually saying that they cannot answer their own questions?

"BuyHibs added that information about how the debt will be repaid had not been forthcoming. 'During November and December 2014 in face-to-face meetings with other Hibs fans, BuyHibs were unable to answer many questions posed as the answers were wholly dependent on the price being asked by the owners for the football club.'"

[Andy74]

Why the focus on the debt details? It's been almost halved you numpties. Through the goodwill of the people you are criticising.

The club would do well not to speak to any of these people any more and we shouldn't comment on them anymore either. They will surely go away soon?

[Gatecrasher]

I don't know what's worse these "groups" making these statements or the Scotsman giving them any sense of credibility by printing them.

[lucky]

How many different groups of supporters are there. We're nearly as bad as the Rangers with all the spliter groups. The peoples front of Jeddah springs to mind. HoH are irrelevant as they want the club for free and just making stuff up. BuyHibs are jealous as a vehicle of fan ownership has been put forward which leaves them sidelined. The question is do Hibs fans want to own the club or not. Personally I just want a winning team.

[Peevemor]

Why the focus on the debt details? It's been almost halved you numpties. Through the goodwill of the people you are criticising.

The club would do well not to speak to any of these people any more and we shouldn't comment on them anymore either. They will surely go away soon?

Yeah but ..., erm Farmer oot!

[JimBHibees]

I don't know what's worse these "groups" making these statements or the Scotsman giving them any sense of credibility by printing them.

Yep they seem to be able to get their voice heard. Last 2 days on radio forth it has been a prominent story in the sports section of a Hibs fans group slating the share deal. Quote incredible really some obviously have egos the size of Brazil.

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't understand how these groups are getting all this attention, there does not seem to be more than a handful of them? :confused:

[JimBHibees]

I don't understand how these groups are getting all this attention, there does not seem to be more than a handful of them? :confused:

Yep one man and a dog springs to mind. Better ignored.

[Sudds_1]

They wouldn't run a bath. They'd let someone else run it and then claim that person was creaming the suds from the top of it.

They've never creamed me...ever! :greengrin

[kano]

I don't understand how these groups are getting all this attention, there does not seem to be more than a handful of them? :confused:

Seems you're wrong again.

[blackpoolhibs]

Seems you're wrong again.

Am i, how many would you say are backing these claims?

[CB_NO3]

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-kenny-macaskill-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

[Andy74]

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-kenny-macaskill-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

Total nonsense from start to finish. They actually think they have some rights or some power here, which they don't.

Pat Stanton still appears to be their chairman, he needs to sort this lot out or make clear he has resigned and walked away, his association with this lot do him no favours.

[Smartie]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

[jacomo]

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-kenny-macaskill-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

But Pat Stanton has jumped ship? And Charlie Reid - a prominent Petrie oot! voice - is on HSL.

Ultimately it doesn't matter that BuyHibs discredited themselves by echoing the unfounded allegations about asset stripping. It all comes down to money - BuyHibs don't have any and they are whistling in the wind.

[jacomo]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

Isis are consistent too but it doesn't make them any more palatable!

[Mikey]

Seems you're wrong again.

Did you manage to find out who HOH got their independent financial advice from?

[marinello59]

Am i, how many would you say are backing these claims?

He won't answer you. He prefers 'snappy' one liners.

[Turkish Green]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.
You are not alone. I too run my own business and find the corporate stuff (VAT, corporation tax, salaries, etc) beyond me at times.

It seems to me that HOH have been around for decades but have achieved very little if anything. I do not trust Petrie, but I ain't falling for the old adage of: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Oscar T Grouch]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

They have also consistently been asked to show evidence for their claims and not once have they produced anything. If they are going to make claims about people and businesses, they must back those claims up with proof, but they just seem to push anyone asking for it out the way and shout louder. While this is a way to be heard, it is not the way to win an argument or debate.

[Andy74]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

The detail isn't too tricky.

First issue is the debt - after we agreed the deal with the bank the holding compnay were left with a total debt of £9.5 million. £4.5 million of that has been swapped for equity in Hibs and so effectively written off in terms of being a sum due to be repaid. Just to be clear on this, the owners of the holding company have written off actual money that has been handed over previously either to the club or the bank, in return for some more shares.

So, new shares are now being created and offered for sale by Hibs, with the proceeds you pay going straight to Hibs. This creates what you call dilution which means the overall value of the existing shareholders is less because you have potentially about double the shares in issue. Again important, if there was any shenanigans going on the current owners would surely not be agreeing to dilute the value of their holdings?

Whether you find a way to buy direct or whether you join HSL who will buy shares direct, the money still goes to the club. HSL is essentially a donation in exchange for a memership. They will use youir money to buy shares that they will hold.

Focus appears to be on the repayment of the debt. Well, it's now £5 million instead of the full £9.5 million so it would be wierd to write all that off, accept dilution on shares and then have a repayment rate or term that screwed us wouldn't it?

The focus is also on sporting ambition which the money is to be used for - and the possibility of it being used to repay debt. Even if it was that is still an operating expense of the football club and it doesn't matter which income stream you take that part from.

If you have £5 from season ticket money and £5 from share income and you need to repay £2 of that to existing debt you are left with £8 for other things. You are left with £8 for other things regardless of which pot you make the debt payment from.

They are determined to see a con here and are ignoring the very big issues such as debt write off and dilution to focus on the wording of sporting ambition and the margins on a £5m debt repayment.

[blackpoolhibs]

He won't answer you. He prefers 'snappy' one liners.

I live in hope. :wink:

[kano]

Am i, how many would you say are backing these claims?

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

[blackpoolhibs]

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

Again you have failed to answer the question, do you have the backing of the supporters association, do you have the support of the internet fans forums?

How many members do both supporters groups have, is Pat Stanton still your chairman? EVERY hibs fan i talk to think your groups are very strange. They fire off accusations but whenever they are presented with the facts, you never answer them but move on to something else, something else thats unsubstantiated rubbish.

[schinkenotto]

I am not massively business-minded (even though I actually own my own business) and I find it hard to pick through the detail of what is on offer from Hibs here. I am sure I am not alone.

One thing I can say for sure is that I would never, ever, under any circumstances buy a second-hand car from Rod Petrie.

For all HOH seem like they may be slightly misguided at times at least they are consistent. Time will tell whether or not they have been right all along or miles wide of the mark.

"Slightly misguided" is putting it mildly.I used to have respect for some of the people involved,but HoH seem now to be run by intemperate fanatics,who are quite happy to make unfounded allegations against STF and indulge in gratuitous sexism against LD,which they seem to think is clever,while objecting to what they consider to be "abuse" against them.

If their deluded nonsense and bile disrupt what I genuinely believe (after too many false starts) is progress on and off the park,these people will not be forgiven.

[Andy74]

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?

I think calling either of HoH and BuyHibs as supporters groups is pushing it. They both seem to be a handful of individuals with little wider support.

I've no idea about the other groups and I'm not really into all that anyway, we are just fans of the club. They certainly haven't come out with any nonsense reasons why we should be against it.

The Buyhibs chairman supported it by the way.

[Lurkio]

The detail isn't too tricky.

First issue is the debt - after we agreed the deal with the bank the holding compnay were left with a total debt of £9.5 million. £4.5 million of that has been swapped for equity in Hibs and so effectively written off in terms of being a sum due to be repaid. Just to be clear on this, the owners of the holding company have written off actual money that has been handed over previously either to the club or the bank, in return for some more shares.


This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

[kano]

Again you have failed to answer the question, do you have the backing of the supporters association, do you have the support of the internet fans forums?

How many members do both supporters groups have, is Pat Stanton still your chairman? EVERY hibs fan i talk to think your groups are very strange. They fire off accusations but whenever they are presented with the facts, you never answer them but move on to something else, something else thats unsubstantiated rubbish.

Can you answer my questions? Funny that, every Hibs supporter I speak to including at the game on Saturday i've yet to hear anyone back Farmer/Petrie or their new proposals. Sorry, no one has counted how many activists. If you had been brave enough to come to any meetings you would have a better idea. I would guess at over one hundred. That's people prepared to go out and do something, not sit in the house with their cats typing on a laptop. Pat Stanton was never HOH chairman. HOH don't have a chairman, please keep up. Ive no idea how many people are members of BuyHibs you would need to ask them.

[CropleyWasGod]

This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

My take on the debt situation is this:-

The bank debt would have been about £6.25m in December (taking the July figures, less about £65k for repayments since then). Adding the holding company debt at July of £2.75 gives us £9m. Halving that, which is what they're telling us they did, gives the £4.5m conversion from loans to shares.

In that scenario, the bank has written off almost nothing, and the Holding Company £4.5m.

[Andy74]

This is the only bit where I have a concern about the deal. It suggests that the holding company lent the club the full £6.3M to pay off the bank debt in full. Then agreed to write off £4.5M, thus reducing the overall debt to £5M.

I think it was "Mikey" who previously stated that the settlement with the bank was £1.872M (about 30%, the same as achieved by Dundee Utd and Aberdeen). That number would fit in with the £5M now owed to the holding company. (£3M originally owed, plus £1.872M, plus costs).

What may be the essence of the deal is that the holding company "bought" the £6.3M bank debt for £1.872. At that point the club owed the full £9.5M to the holding company, which then wrote off the claimed £4.5M, and awarding itself more shares in return.

IMO the reality is that the holding company has spent £1.872M which has been added to the club's debt, and hasn't written off any actual money. It was only the bank who has written of any real money (£4.4M+).

------------------------------------
That said, the rest of the deal looks a good one for fans. The club has reduced its overall indebtedness thanks to the Bank and STF. £2.5M for 51% of the club is good value.

However, I'd still like to get more information about the true nature of the deal with the bank and the claims of write offs from the holding company, before committing to the HSL offer. Perhaps we will know more from the AGM.

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

[Sergio sledge]

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-kenny-macaskill-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

They are annoyed that they are not involved in this. They only have themselves to blame as they refused to meet with the club when offered the chance. Perhaps if they had me with the club at that stage then they could have been part of HSL and this "divide" might not have happened.

They launched too early in an effort to gazzump the clubs plans and were found out for having no plan or detail. They've been offered the chance for the fans to own 51% of the club with all the proceeds going to the club and not existing shareholders. I fail to see how people think this is a bad idea, particularly people who previously wanted this exact thing.

As to their statement that HSL will not be able to get directors onto the board, surely if the majority shareholders vote to remove or add directors to the board at AGM's or do a Dave King and call a GM, then it'll happen?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can you answer my questions? Funny that, every Hibs supporter I speak to including at the game on Saturday i've yet to hear anyone back Farmer/Petrie or their new proposals. Sorry, no one has counted how many activists. If you had been brave enough to come to any meetings you would have a better idea. I would guess at over one hundred. That's people prepared to go out and do something, not sit in the house with their cats typing on a laptop. Pat Stanton was never HOH chairman. HOH don't have a chairman, please keep up. Ive no idea how many people are members of BuyHibs you would need to ask them.

Why is that so important?

Most of us would prefer to sit and listen to the arguments, backed up by facts and respected opinion, and then make a balanced decision.

[kano]

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

[CropleyWasGod]

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

It's quite simple. Read my post above.

The loans have been halved. The costs of servicing those loans have therefore been halved.

[Brightside]

I thought you would've knew that? You seem to think you know everything else about HOH. Its now confirmed two supporters groups are not happy with the plans. Have any supporters group come out and backed it? Could you tell me how many people are in they groups, if they exist? Have the shareholders association backed it? What about the supporters association at the Hibs club?


HOH and BuyHibs are not supporters groups.

[kano]

Why is that so important?

Most of us would prefer to sit and listen to the arguments, backed up by facts and respected opinion, and then make a balanced decision.

That's your choice and i respect that. Its important to be out there as the majority of Hibs fans, well certainly the ones i attend the games every week with don't go on Hibs forums.

[greenginger]

http://www.buyhibs.org/meeting-with-kenny-macaskill-chairman-hsl/

Buy Hibs statement in full.

To quote one paragraph,

" We were told that there is no mechanism for HSL to elect a director onto the Board of Hibernian Football Club denying the fans the opportunity to have a direct influence. "

Have they not heard of the two fan elected directors ? Or is their idea of a fan rep. different from the rep. all fans get a say in electing.

[kano]

It's quite simple. Read my post above.

The loans have been halved. The costs of servicing those loans have therefore been halved.

So these details are available? Where can i see them?

[CropleyWasGod]

So these details are available? Where can i see them?

You can use the accounts, and the club statements.

[Brightside]

That's your choice and i respect that. Its important to be out there as the majority of Hibs fans, well certainly the ones i attend the games every week with don't go on Hibs forums.

So you attend the games with like minded individuals. Not really a poll is it. Put a poll up on here and Bounce and see what you get.

[Lurkio]

If I'm with you are you suggesting that the bank accepted just £1.8 million of the £6.3 million it was owed?

Despite us making payments and being able to continue to make payments and having assets to cover the figure?

I haven't seen anyhting suggesting this is the reality at all. The statements at the time said the bank had been paid direct. There may have been some saving for early repayment but not to the extent you are talking about.

£6.3 m bank debt and existing £3m holding compnay debt is close to the £9.5m considering we have probably lost more money since the accounts and maybe got a bit of the debt reduced.

Intrigued as to where you got those figures?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Lloyds want out of football. That is why deals have been agreed with Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and Kilmarnock. Based of numbers from those clubs' accounts it looks like the Bank discounted their debt down to 30% which is in line with the £1.872M that Mikey quoted earlier. The other clubs were also servicing their bank debts before the deals were made so Hibs is not unique in paying their bills when they fall due, unlike another city club.

[BSEJVT]

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

Ever heard of confidentiality agreements?

There is no way the Bank would permit them to divulge such details or you would have a queue from Lands End to John O'Groats of companies and individuals seeking to do the same and telling the Bank you did it for Hibs why not me?

It seems to me that either neither of these two factions have anyone bright enough or interested enough to think through the situation and work it out or maybe anyone with enough integrity having done so to admit to the situation is as portrayed by the club.

These folk have the gall to call themselves Hibs supporters, they couldn't be doing more to damage the club or its reputation if they were setting the stand on fire.

Guys with their own agendas, enjoying their minute in the spotlight and not prepared to give it up.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Lloyds want out of football. That is why deals have been agreed with Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and Kilmarnock. Based of numbers from those clubs' accounts it looks like the Bank discounted their debt down to 30% which is in line with the £1.872M that Mikey quoted earlier. The other clubs were also servicing their bank debts before the deals were made so Hibs is not unique in paying their bills when they fall due, unlike another city club.

Did you read my post?

Using the accounts figures, my explanation makes much more sense than the bank writing off 70%.

[kano]

HOH and BuyHibs are not supporters groups.

EH? How does that work out? HOH is a group of Hibernian supporters i can guarantee that.

[SunshineOnLeith]

You can use the accounts, and the club statements.

HOH don't like being directed to actual proof and legal documents. Have you got a badly photoshopped movie poster or inflammatory Twitter account you can post instead, please?

[Brightside]

That statement from BuyHibs is awful. Very thankfull they got their 15 mins of fame and will have nothing to do with the running of Hibs moving forward.

[BSEJVT]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Lloyds want out of football. That is why deals have been agreed with Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and Kilmarnock. Based of numbers from those clubs' accounts it looks like the Bank discounted their debt down to 30% which is in line with the £1.872M that Mikey quoted earlier. The other clubs were also servicing their bank debts before the deals were made so Hibs is not unique in paying their bills when they fall due, unlike another city club.

Even in the unlikely event that you were correct, what's not to like about the deal

The debt has been virtually halved (last years losses took the inter company loan up to £2.5m before the deal plus bank debt of around £7m) and the current shareholders give away half of their assets totalling over £20m in exchange for supporters investing £2.5m into the club.

Those supporters now control a majority shareholding and have the voice so many have wished for.

Why wouldn't you like that?

[jabis]

Can you answer my questions? Funny that, every Hibs supporter I speak to including at the game on Saturday i've yet to hear anyone back Farmer/Petrie or their new proposals. Sorry, no one has counted how many activists. If you had been brave enough to come to any meetings you would have a better idea. I would guess at over one hundred. That's people prepared to go out and do something, not sit in the house with their cats typing on a laptop. Pat Stanton was never HOH chairman. HOH don't have a chairman, please keep up. Ive no idea how many people are members of BuyHibs you would need to ask them.

I support RP and STF ,so that blows one of your quotes out the water......in fact,every hibs fan I've talked to,including Saturday's game supports it !!

[BSEJVT]

EH? How does that work out? HOH is a group of Hibernian supporters i can guarantee that.

There is a difference between being a group of supporters which could number as little as 2 not that I am suggesting that) and a supporters group such as HSA or the Shareholders Association, ie, a formal group with a constitution and properly elected officials.

[Andy74]

Why cant Farmer/Petrie tell us the deal with the bank. They could also include the details of the 5m owed to the 'holding company?' Then no one needs to second guess anything. Or is that too transparent for them?

They have said it is commerically sensitive. A bank would not want details of any settlement, if there was a small one, disclosed.

Overall all you can take all the other detail into account though and take a view as to whether we are being screwed or not though?

What details of the £5m would be important to you? The odd percentage point? Would this be a suitable way to recoup what they have written off and the value of the dilution of the shareholding?

A wee bit of thinking things through would be good,

[Lurkio]

Ever heard of confidentiality agreements?

There is no way the Bank would permit them to divulge such details or you would have a queue from Lands End to John O'Groats of companies and individuals seeking to do the same and telling the Bank you did it for Hibs why not me?


From Dundee Utd's accounts from 2013:

"The negotiated terms included the payment of £1.45M on the entering of the agreement ............The borrowings due to the bank at the date of enering the arrangement were £4.7M"

There was also a contingent liability that the bank would receive a share of transfers received up to Aug 2015. So the bank will have received a share of the Gauld and Roberson transfers in addition to the up front sum.

In Aberdeen's case they have a similar contingent liability if the club sells Pittodrie at a sum higher than an agreed figure.

It is entirely possible that Hibs will also have a similar contingent liability, but we may not see that information until the next accounts are published.

[kano]

You can use the accounts, and the club statements.

Im aware of that. Still no finer details in either of them though. Dempster said at the recent meeting with HOH and HSL "No details of the deal with the bank or the holding company will be shown" #NorthKorea

[Andy74]

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Lloyds want out of football. That is why deals have been agreed with Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and Kilmarnock. Based of numbers from those clubs' accounts it looks like the Bank discounted their debt down to 30% which is in line with the £1.872M that Mikey quoted earlier. The other clubs were also servicing their bank debts before the deals were made so Hibs is not unique in paying their bills when they fall due, unlike another city club.

Sorry, but none of that is likely in our situation, and I know all about banks! It doesn't tally with the statements or the figures either.

Would still be a good deal mind you but I don't believe it was the case.

[CropleyWasGod]

Im aware of that. Still no finer details in either of them though. Dempster said at the recent meeting with HOH and HSL "No details of the deal with the bank or the holding company will be shown" #NorthKorea

What finer details would you want?

[kano]

There is a difference between being a group of supporters which could number as little as 2 not that I am suggesting that) and a supporters group such as HSA or the Shareholders Association, ie, a formal group with a constitution and properly elected officials.

Sound mate, ill give you a shout when we swap the hoodies for blazers and you can let us know if we're a supporters group.

[Lurkio]

Even in the unlikely event that you were correct, what's not to like about the deal

The debt has been virtually halved (last years losses took the inter company loan up to £2.5m before the deal plus bank debt of around £7m) and the current shareholders give away half of their assets totalling over £20m in exchange for supporters investing £2.5m into the club.

Those supporters now control a majority shareholding and have the voice so many have wished for.

Why wouldn't you like that?

As I said in my original post, the rest of the deal is fine. The club has reduced its debt which is fantastic, but if I am correct in my assertions, then the Board is being disingenious to suggest that the holding company has written off £4.5M (in real money) and taken new shares in return, when all they have done is add the settlement figure to the previous £3M owed to the holding company.

[The Falcon]

Im aware of that. Still no finer details in either of them though. Dempster said at the recent meeting with HOH and HSL "No details of the deal with the bank or the holding company will be shown" #NorthKorea

Why don't HoH or BuyHibs just buy the club outright?

[BSEJVT]

From Dundee Utd's accounts from 2013:

"The negotiated terms included the payment of £1.45M on the entering of the agreement ............The borrowings due to the bank at the date of enering the arrangement were £4.7M"

There was also a contingent liability that the bank would receive a share of transfers received up to Aug 2015. So the bank will have received a share of the Gauld and Roberson transfers in addition to the up front sum.

In Aberdeen's case they have a similar contingent liability if the club sells Pittodrie at a sum higher than an agreed figure.

It is entirely possible that Hibs will also have a similar contingent liability, but we may not see that information until the next accounts are published.

No two deals are the same so its irrelevant

Look at the comparative financial positions of the respective owners of the 3 clubs and tell me that STF wasn't good for our borrowings and there was some doubt the others were.

Our borrowings came from capital projects like rebuilding ER & East Mains, their's came from loss upon loss on the playing side.

There is a world of difference between the respective positions.

[kano]

What finer details would you want?

Them all.

[CropleyWasGod]

As I said in my original post, the rest of the deal is fine. The club has reduced its debt which is fantastic, but if I am correct in my assertions, then the Board is being disingenious to suggest that the holding company has written off £4.5M (in real money) and taken new shares in return, when all they have done is add the settlement figure to the previous £3M owed to the holding company.

I'll post this again, since you seem to have missed it:-

The bank debt would have been about £6.25m in December (taking the July figures, less about £65k for repayments since then). Adding the holding company debt at July of £2.75 gives us £9m. Halving that, which is what they're telling us they did, gives the £4.5m conversion from loans to shares.

In that scenario, the bank has written off almost nothing, and the Holding Company £4.5m.

[kano]

Why don't HoH or BuyHibs just buy the club outright?

HOH do not want to buy the club, wear blazers or a seat on the board. Please keep up.

[Andy74]

As I said in my original post, the rest of the deal is fine. The club has reduced its debt which is fantastic, but if I am correct in my assertions, then the Board is being disingenious to suggest that the holding company has written off £4.5M (in real money) and taken new shares in return, when all they have done is add the settlement figure to the previous £3M owed to the holding company.

Thast's fine, but the likelihood is that you are not right in your suggestion - nothing at all from any of the statements points to it. Using other clubs doesn't help, the situations and arrangements are not the same.

The holding company ended up with a real debt of £9.5 million or so, the bank received all or most of its money.

If they paid a loeer sum to the bank there would have been no need to show the higher figure and then swap it for equity.

[SunshineOnLeith]

HOH do not want to buy the club, wear blazers or a seat on the board. Please keep up.

You're cute, you mischievous wee scamp.

*ruffles kano's hair*

[Andy74]

HOH do not want to buy the club, wear blazers or a seat on the board. Please keep up.

Who would you like to own the club?

[Lurkio]

I'll post this again, since you seem to have missed it:-

The bank debt would have been about £6.25m in December (taking the July figures, less about £65k for repayments since then). Adding the holding company debt at July of £2.75 gives us £9m. Halving that, which is what they're telling us they did, gives the £4.5m conversion from loans to shares.

In that scenario, the bank has written off almost nothing, and the Holding Company £4.5m.

I would agree with you if the club paid off the full amount to the Bank. I don't believe they did, so we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

The original debt to the holding company was actually £3M, not £2.75M. From the accounts there was a £250K "Parent company loan" in addition to the £2.75M in "Amounts due to parent company"

[kano]

They have said it is commerically sensitive. A bank would not want details of any settlement, if there was a small one, disclosed.

Overall all you can take all the other detail into account though and take a view as to whether we are being screwed or not though?

What details of the £5m would be important to you? The odd percentage point? Would this be a suitable way to recoup what they have written off and the value of the dilution of the shareholding?

A wee bit of thinking things through would be good,

How about all the details? Thinking things through is great as is transparency. Especially when you're asking supporters to stump up an extra £200 a year on top of Premier League season ticket prices for watching Hibs play Alloa and Cowdenbeath.

[Brightside]

How about all the details? Thinking things through is great as is transparency. Especially when you're asking supporters to stump up an extra £200 a year on top of Premier League season ticket prices for watching Hibs play Alloa and Cowdenbeath.

Dont pay it than.

[Peevemor]

How about all the details? Thinking things through is great as is transparency. Especially when you're asking supporters to stump up an extra £200 a year on top of Premier League season ticket prices for watching Hibs play Alloa and Cowdenbeath.

I'm not sure you know what that means.

[kano]

Who would you like to own the club?
Did you not read the full thread? HOH statement makes it clear.

[Andy74]

How about all the details? Thinking things through is great as is transparency. Especially when you're asking supporters to stump up an extra £200 a year on top of Premier League season ticket prices for watching Hibs play Alloa and Cowdenbeath.

The point I am making is, what details would make a difference here?

The evidence is that our debt was around £9.5 million - you can see and check that.

Our debt is now £5 million and payable to the holding compnay. No one has security over our assets anymore.

£4.5 million is effectively being written off and the current owners are making available new shares that would half the value of their shareholdings and half the influence they have.

So, what would be in the detail of the £5m that would trouble you - do you reckon the interest rate might be 100 % and payable next year?

You lot keep looking for the next little thing that might be a con even though there is a pile of evidence that you are wrong. There is no leeway or angle left here for anyone not to be doing something that isn't in the best interest of the club and its fans.

[kano]

I'm not sure you know what that means.
Sound mate. I take it we've met you seem to know me? Whats your name?

[Peevemor]

Sound mate. I take it we've met you seem to know me? Whats your name?

I'm not telling you in case you come after my cat.

[DarlingtonHibee]

How about all the details? Thinking things through is great as is transparency. Especially when you're asking supporters to stump up an extra £200 a year on top of Premier League season ticket prices for watching Hibs play Alloa and Cowdenbeath.

Supporting Hibs is optional, you either do or you don't.

There are posters on here who were involved in saving Hibs all those years ago.

STF worked with great Hibs men like Kenny Mclean snr, and quiety went about securing the long term future of our club.

This HOH, Buy Hibs, I'm afraid to say is just the opposite, not helped by an individual briefing the press.

No doubt there will be a stage show at the AGM, but Kano, 99 per cent of Hibs fans think it's all a bit tragic, and can I say the Jambos are loving it on Sickback.

So if you feel you are being duped as a Hibs fan, then stop attending Easter Road, you are not welcome by the vast majority of Hibs fans.

However, as things continue to improve on and off the pitch, you will be back.

[Brightside]

Kano - whats your name?

[green day]

The point I am making is, what details would make a difference here?

The evidence is that our debt was around £9.5 million - you can see and check that.

Our debt is now £5 million and payable to the holding compnay. No one has security over our assets anymore.

£4.5 million is effectively being written off and the current owners are making available new shares that would half the value of their shareholdings and half the influence they have.

So, what would be in the detail of the £5m that would trouble you - do you reckon the interest rate might be 100 % and payable next year?

You lot keep looking for the next little thing that might be a con even though there is a pile of evidence that you are wrong. There is no leeway or angle left here for anyone not to be doing something that isn't in the best interest of the club and its fans.

All of this is how I read it too.

What concerns me is the HOH mob dividing supporters, making threatening noises etc - when we have the oportunity to own over half the club.

That, and the slightly difficult nature of buying shares (except through HSL) might scupper the whole thing.

But I guess thats what Brad and Kano want all along?

Takes the bigger man to admit you are wrong and throw in the towel - but I cant see this lot doing it.

[kano]

The point I am making is, what details would make a difference here?

The evidence is that our debt was around £9.5 million - you can see and check that.

Our debt is now £5 million and payable to the holding compnay. No one has security over our assets anymore.

£4.5 million is effectively being written off and the current owners are making available new shares that would half the value of their shareholdings and half the influence they have.

So, what would be in the detail of the £5m that would trouble you - do you reckon the interest rate might be 100 % and payable next year?

You lot keep looking for the next little thing that might be a con even though there is a pile of evidence that you are wrong. There is no leeway or angle left here for anyone not to be doing something that isn't in the best interest of the club and its fans.

It would make all the difference if they come out and show us. Who knows, HOH would maybe back it if it was transparent.

[Lurkio]

Thast's fine, but the likelihood is that you are not right in your suggestion - nothing at all from any of the statements points to it. Using other clubs doesn't help, the situations and arrangements are not the same.

The holding company ended up with a real debt of £9.5 million or so, the bank received all or most of its money.

If they paid a loeer sum to the bank there would have been no need to show the higher figure and then swap it for equity.

From a Sky Sports News report on 9th December

"The Edinburgh entrepreneur is believed to be nearing an agreement with Hibs’ bankers that see him pay out a seven-figure settlement amount and clear the way for a possible takover.
Sky Sports reporter Luke Shanley said: "I understand that Hibernian have done a deal with the bank to wipe out their debt. The deal has been signed with the bank but it could take up to a month for it to be fully ratified.


"Tom Farmer will contribute about a quarter of the debt with the rest being written off with clauses in the deal with the bank. The club are yet to release their financial figures or hold an AGM.


----------------------

The above is consistent with what I have said about the Bank accepting a significantly reduced sum and the claimed write offs of real money being the Bank's and not the holding company.

[Andy74]

Did you not read the full thread? HOH statement makes it clear.

It doesn't, I'm sure you can clarify though.

[DarlingtonHibee]

It would make all the difference if they come out and show us. Who knows, HOH would maybe back it if it was transparent.

Dont think so Kano, they are enjoying their little publicity stunt.

[Andy74]

From a Sky Sports News report on 9th December

"The Edinburgh entrepreneur is believed to be nearing an agreement with Hibs’ bankers that see him pay out a seven-figure settlement amount and clear the way for a possible takover.
Sky Sports reporter Luke Shanley said: "I understand that Hibernian have done a deal with the bank to wipe out their debt. The deal has been signed with the bank but it could take up to a month for it to be fully ratified.


"Tom Farmer will contribute about a quarter of the debt with the rest being written off with clauses in the deal with the bank. The club are yet to release their financial figures or hold an AGM.


----------------------

The above is consistent with what I have said about the Bank accepting a significantly reduced sum and the claimed write offs of real money being the Bank's and not the holding company.

Speculation. The above is consistent with what some people got in their head might happen. It was not likely then and the detail that has since been provided by the club on the holding company debt for equity swap bears out that this speculation was not correct.

[green day]

From a Sky Sports News report on 9th December

"The Edinburgh entrepreneur is believed to be nearing an agreement with Hibs’ bankers that see him pay out a seven-figure settlement amount and clear the way for a possible takover.
Sky Sports reporter Luke Shanley said: "I understand that Hibernian have done a deal with the bank to wipe out their debt. The deal has been signed with the bank but it could take up to a month for it to be fully ratified.


"Tom Farmer will contribute about a quarter of the debt with the rest being written off with clauses in the deal with the bank. The club are yet to release their financial figures or hold an AGM.


----------------------

The above is consistent with what I have said about the Bank accepting a significantly reduced sum and the claimed write offs of real money being the Bank's and not the holding company.

So what?

So STF didnt write it all off himself, but put in place a method of gettign it written off.

Do you think the deals Dundee Utd and Aberdeen did were all that different? The banks want out the football business and write off debt - are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just thick?

[CropleyWasGod]

It would make all the difference if they come out and show us. Who knows, HOH would maybe back it if it was transparent.

Show us what?

Can you be precise?

Maybe somebody will ask the questions on your behalf at the AGM.

[Andy74]

It would make all the difference if they come out and show us. Who knows, HOH would maybe back it if it was transparent.

Show you what? Specifically what is troubling you?

[kano]

Supporting Hibs is optional, you either do or you don't.

There are posters on here who were involved in saving Hibs all those years ago.

STF worked with great Hibs men like Kenny Mclean snr, and quiety went about securing the long term future of our club.

This HOH, Buy Hibs, I'm afraid to say is just the opposite, not helped by an individual briefing the press.

No doubt there will be a stage show at the AGM, but Kano, 99 per cent of Hibs fans think it's all a bit tragic, and can I say the Jambos are loving it on Sickback.

So if you feel you are being duped as a Hibs fan, then stop attending Easter Road, you are not welcome by the vast majority of Hibs fans.

However, as things continue to improve on and off the pitch, you will be back.

So you've spoken to 99 per cent of Hibs fans? Just getting silly now! Im not interested in Hearts or what their daft fans are saying. One of the problems of Hibs fans in recent years is worrying about what was going on in Gorgie. Half this forum had them liquidated never to return, while our club went from one disaster to another, Im only interested in Hibs. Ill be at Palmerston on Saturday fell free to come across and tell me im not welcome.

[kano]

Kano - whats your name?
You wanting an autograph? You show me yours ill show you mine? :na na:

[kano]

Show us what?

Can you be precise?

Maybe somebody will ask the questions on your behalf at the AGM.

Right last time.... show us the lot thats all the details of the deal between the bank and the new debt to the holding company. Maybe ill ask a question at the AGM!

[Mikey]

Did you manage to find out who HOH got their independent financial advice from?

Bumped. Just in case you missed it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Right last time.... show us the lot thats all the details of the deal between the bank and the new debt to the holding company. Maybe ill ask a question at the AGM!

If it's important to you, you should.

Would you accept the answer, though?

[Mikey]

Right last time.... show us the lot thats all the details of the deal between the bank and the new debt to the holding company. Maybe ill ask a question at the AGM!

Posts 6 and 7 here kinda explain why we won't get that......

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296496-Q-amp-A-With-Leeann-Dempster-re-Debt-Reduction-and-Share-Offer

[CB_NO3]

I support RP and STF ,so that blows one of your quotes out the water......in fact,every hibs fan I've talked to,including Saturday's game supports it !!
Do you really trust Petrie? They got us in 17 million pound debt, pre car park sale. They got us in 9 million debt pre bank deal, all this with being a complete failure on the park. Am sitting on the fence here. I like the idea of fan ownership but I dont trust Petrie to run a football club.

Just say we rack up 10 millions pounds worth of debt over the next 10 years (history suggests it will happen) then how do we get out of it?

My perfect scenario would be to pay Petrie off using the 2.5 million working capital. Surely 500k would see it ok? That way I trust Dempster has the right resources to get on with the job and we can bring in a neutral chairman.

[Andy74]

Right last time.... show us the lot thats all the details of the deal between the bank and the new debt to the holding company. Maybe ill ask a question at the AGM!

The payment to the bank will remain confidential - it is commercially sensitive to the bank. The outcome though is no bank debt and no security over our assets. That's £6.3 million or so worth.

Specifically, what could be an issue for you in this?

The holding company debt, which was £3 million is now £5 million but this includes whatever was paid to the bank to cover the £6.3 million which is now not due. Their toal debt was £9.5 million and they have swapped £4.5 million for new equity.

The terms of the £5 million loan we don't know.

Specifically, what could be in there that would trouble you against writing off £4.5 million?

I don't think you know what detail you want or what difference it would make - can you give us an idea of what you think might be hidden? It would need to be cracking to outweigh the write off and the share dilution, but crack on, I'm all ears.

[kano]

Bumped. Just in case you missed it.

Yip.

[Bad Martini]

Too much energy expelled in this thread debating the undebatable.

The bottom line;
============
LESS debt is good.............unless you live in the strange parallel universe where Yamathematics is alive and well, where they believe debt you owe yourself isnt really debt and truckloads of Brazillian World Cup stars are just around the corner on the bus through Gorgski.

It would appear we owe less money today than we did last year. I dont care a **** how this was cleverly achieved. Once we settle our debts or at least control them fully, we will have more money....

MORE money is good....always.:not worth

ENDOF :agree:

[Mikey]

Yip.

Is the bit about obtaining independent financial advice untrue then? You're certainly doing all you can to dodge it.

[The Falcon]

HOH do not want to buy the club, wear blazers or a seat on the board. Please keep up.

But they would if they wanted to, they just dot want to?

I am trying to keep up but I am pretty thick unfortunately. I need bright guys like you to explain things.

[Peevemor]

Do you really trust Petrie? They got us in 17 million pound debt, pre car park sale. They got us in 9 million debt pre bank deal, all this with being a complete failure on the park. Am sitting on the fence here. I like the idea of fan ownership but I dont trust Petrie to run a football club.

Just say we rack up 10 millions pounds worth of debt over the next 10 years (history suggests it will happen) then how do we get out of it?

My perfect scenario would be to pay Petrie off using the 2.5 million working capital. Surely 500k would see it ok? That way I trust Dempster has the right resources to get on with the job and we can bring in a neutral chairman.

I suppose it depends how many new stands and training centres we build.

[kano]

Is the bit about obtaining independent financial advice untrue then? You're certainly doing all you can to dodge it.

It's certainly true. Anyway I'm off, any longer on here and I'll need to buy a few cats.

[Bleeds green]

I Cringe every time I see a HOH spokesperson in the paper or on the TV with there scowling faces and trouble making attitudes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CB_NO3]

I suppose it depends how many new stands and training centres we build.
Dont mention the shambles that is the training centre. We struggle to run it. Our under 20s rent Ainslie Park to play games. If the weather is really bad we train at ER making a mess of the pitch. It was a great idea but we never done it properly.

[BSEJVT]

Sound mate, ill give you a shout when we swap the hoodies for blazers and you can let us know if we're a supporters group.

Tells me everything I need to know about you

I doubt very much whether many of your fellow supporters from the Hibs Supporters Association would like to be described as Blazers

Why don't you round up the rest of your group and go and play down the swing parks again?

You will probably need to get back to school now as the lunch bell will have rung

[Mikey]

It's certainly true. Anyway I'm off, any longer on here and I'll need to buy a few cats.

Jings, what a coincidence. You did a runner the last time the (still unanswered) questions got too much for you.

[Mikey]

Dont mention the shambles that is the training centre. We struggle to run it. Our under 20s rent Ainslie Park to play games. If the weather is really bad we train at ER making a mess of the pitch. It was a great idea but we never done it properly.

We hope to do another visit down to the training centre around Easter. Get your name down for it and you'll see that this is far from the truth.

A few hundred people have done the visit now (from several supporter's groups, not just hibs.net) and not one of them has reported back with those problems.

[Pretty Boy]

Kano - whats your name?

I know but I'm not telling.

I've got to go get my blazer drycleaned and feed my cat anyway.

[kano]

Jings, what a coincidence. You did a runner the last time the (still unanswered) questions got too much for you.

Its boring same posters asking same pointless questions. I'll tell you what though, I'll be at Palmerston on Saturday, introduce yourself and I'll answer any question you want. Why don't you set up a meeting with HOH and the posters on here who seem to be able to tell us everything? I don't speak for everyone only myself but I'm sure more than a 'handful' of HOH activists would welcome that.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Dont mention the shambles that is the training centre. We struggle to run it. Our under 20s rent Ainslie Park to play games. If the weather is really bad we train at ER making a mess of the pitch. It was a great idea but we never done it properly.

Certainly one of the biggest load of rubbish I've seen written on here in a while. Maybe it has a grain of truth under past regimes, but since July, the training centre is full of life, has plenty full time staff and has all the facilities needed to run a top level football club. On chatting with George Craig, he seemed genuinely astounded at the facility we have and is very happy with how it is (now) run. I also don't believe for a second that Alan Stubbs would allow things not to be run properly. He has worked at Finch Farm long enough to see how an EPL training facility is run. He certainly said it was a ghost town when he came in, but is totally different now,. And that is obvious when you see it in action.
How often have we trained at ER by the way?

[blackpoolhibs]

Its boring same posters asking same pointless questions. I'll tell you what though, I'll be at Palmerston on Saturday, introduce yourself and I'll answer any question you want. Why don't you set up a meeting with HOH and the posters on here who seem to be able to tell us everything? I don't speak for everyone only myself but I'm sure more than a 'handful' of HOH activists would welcome that.

How is not answering ANY question helping your "cause" Plenty of questions have been asked, but in the real world any that get close to the truth you just ignore?

How will i recognise you on Saturday?

[Pretty Boy]

Words fail me. Whoever has the time to spend doing this pish really needs to get a job, a ride and a life.14112

[kano]

How is not answering ANY question helping your "cause" Plenty of questions have been asked, but in the real world any that get close to the truth you just ignore?

How will i recognise you on Saturday?

I've answered plenty questions on here. Majority of them completely pointless. Navy Blue jacket, green scarf and handsome. What would you need to ask though? You seem to know everything about HOH' from the finer details of the food bank to how many members. If you would like to speak to me no problem be better speaking to HOH directly as it's a group not just me. let me know, I can arrange it. Just send the twitter account your name and when it suits, I'll make sure it happens. I've not got anymore time to sit on here so send me a message or contact HOH twitter and you can ask a thousand questions if you like, face to face.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've answered plenty questions on here. Majority of them completely pointless. Navy Blue jacket, green scarf and handsome. What would you need to ask though? You seem to know everything about HOH' from the finer details of the food bank to how many members. If you would like to speak to me no problem be better speaking to HOH directly as it's a group not just me. let me know, I can arrange it. Just send the twitter account your name and when it suits, I'll make sure it happens. I've not got anymore time to sit on here so send me a message or contact HOH twitter and you can ask a thousand questions if you like, face to face.

The problem with the HOH Twitter account is that, any time anyone raises genuine topics of debate, they are blocked.

[CropleyWasGod]

Words fail me. Whoever has the time to spend doing this pish really needs to get a job, a ride and a life.14112

Dan Aykroyd wrote it. Can't be that bad.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Has any HOH representative ever either explained why they think lies (as in, assertions of fact which are provable as obviously false) are an appropriate tactic for a lobby group to use?

Alternatively, have they ever apologised for lying?

[Iain G]

I've answered plenty questions on here. Majority of them completely pointless. Navy Blue jacket, green scarf and handsome. What would you need to ask though? You seem to know everything about HOH' from the finer details of the food bank to how many members. If you would like to speak to me no problem be better speaking to HOH directly as it's a group not just me. let me know, I can arrange it. Just send the twitter account your name and when it suits, I'll make sure it happens. I've not got anymore time to sit on here so send me a message or contact HOH twitter and you can ask a thousand questions if you like, face to face.

Ah but will he get a thousand answers? Or even just one? Or arr you just trading and peddling unfounded allegations and muck raking while claiming you find having to actually answer any intelligent, well thoughy out and pertinent questions boring the run off to kick cats or pull wings off flies.

Witch hunts are much better focussed down Ibrox way these days than at Hibs

[BroxburnHibee]

The idea of IRA sympathisers taking some sort of moral high ground whilst taking unsubstantiated pops at the club makes me sick to the stomach!!!!

HOH and BuyHibs are now an irrelevance IMO - not worth any bandwidth.

[Andy74]

I've answered plenty questions on here. Majority of them completely pointless. Navy Blue jacket, green scarf and handsome. What would you need to ask though? You seem to know everything about HOH' from the finer details of the food bank to how many members. If you would like to speak to me no problem be better speaking to HOH directly as it's a group not just me. let me know, I can arrange it. Just send the twitter account your name and when it suits, I'll make sure it happens. I've not got anymore time to sit on here so send me a message or contact HOH twitter and you can ask a thousand questions if you like, face to face.

You have avoided answering any of the detailed questions on the key things you said you were concerned about.

The specifics around what your concerns are on the bank settlement and the detail of the terms of the £5m loan.

It's clearly because you have no idea what the issue might be and how they may be bad or otherwise.

Mouthing off like a wannabe hard man seems to be the limit of your talents and sums up the substance of your 'group', whoever you are anyway.

[jacomo]

I suppose it depends how many new stands and training centres we build.

We didn't build any of those last year and still made an £800k loss.

It seems like STF has taken a bath on a large chunk of debt, but it feels like this might be a one-off settlement. With no bank overdraft facilities available anymore, there's a legitimate question about how Hibs will manage large differences in income and expenditure from year to year.

[Mikey]

Its boring same posters asking same pointless questions. I'll tell you what though, I'll be at Palmerston on Saturday, introduce yourself and I'll answer any question you want. Why don't you set up a meeting with HOH and the posters on here who seem to be able to tell us everything? I don't speak for everyone only myself but I'm sure more than a 'handful' of HOH activists would welcome that.

You won't though, will you.

[Bleeds green]

Dont mention the shambles that is the training centre. We struggle to run it. Our under 20s rent Ainslie Park to play games. If the weather is really bad we train at ER making a mess of the pitch. It was a great idea but we never done it properly.

Oh how wrong can someone be!!! I'll take a guess that you have never been near East mains in your life certainly not recently anyway!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy74]

We didn't build any of those last year and still made an £800k loss.

It seems like STF has taken a bath on a large chunk of debt, but it feels like this might be a one-off settlement. With no bank overdraft facilities available anymore, there's a legitimate question about how Hibs will manage large differences in income and expenditure from year to year.

You spend less is the answer. The club have been criticised for not doing enough to get promotion, to gamble a bit and lay out some money to get back and hopefully increase our income again. This shows we have tried to do that to the extent we are comfortable with absorbing. I'm sure next year will see another loss as we will have laid out a bit more and had less income again this year, although at least we know the current debt level.

In some ways the club can't win, we get in debt then the club is badly run, we don't and we are lacking ambition and haven't taken a gamble to take advantage of opportunities.

The answer of course is make more of the budget you have and make better decisions around staff and players and hopefully increase income as a result as well as saving on paying for mistakes. I'm confident that is being worked on, but then again, I've been confident befpre that we have things in place.

[CB_NO3]

Oh how wrong can someone be!!! I'll take a guess that you have never been near East mains in your life certainly not recently anyway!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I meant struggle to run it financially. Nothing to do with the quality of coaches. I more than happy with Stubbs and his coaching staff.

[Mikey]

I meant struggle to run it financially. Nothing to do with the quality of coaches. I more than happy with Stubbs and his coaching staff.

If they were struggling to run it financially I doubt they'd be hiring Ainslie Park.

[Pete]

I wish these HOH guys would just let go now as it's becoming embarrassing.

I've no doubt you're good hibees but all you've got left now is drawing wee pictures and offering to meet people in Dumfries for confrontation.

[The_Exile]

This site is quite a good cross section of the Hibs support, in that nobody really agrees on much most of the time :greengrin But the fact we have almost unanimous agreement that HOH are not acting in our clubs best interests speaks volumes.

In a nutshell, you have no madate from the wider Hibernian support and fanbase to be saying the things you are saying whilst purporting to speak on behalf of us. 100 or so members is, what? in percentage of our local fanbase? 0.25% or so? HOH does not speak for me, and until tangible evidence of some of these claims are provided they will be viewed in my eyes, at best, as a bunch of supporters (the irony of that term in this situation doesn't escape me!) who should educate themselves on the facts and have proof of any behaviour which would be seen as damaging by the club before shouting foul from the rooftops.

[kano]

I wish these HOH guys would just let go now as it's becoming embarrassing.

I've no doubt you're good hibees but all you've got left now is drawing wee pictures and offering to meet people in Dumfries for confrontation.

I take it that's aimed at me. Not once did I mention confrontation. So you can forget that. It's far easier to speak face to face. Like the majority of Hibs fans I speak to in real life manage without hiding behind made up names on a forum.

[CB_NO3]

If they were struggling to run it financially I doubt they'd be hiring Ainslie Park.
Am not going to debate about the HTC. We can leave that for another day. For what its worth am very happy with Stubbs and his coaching staff.

Lets get back to topic and see if its worth fans dipping into their pockets to cover the current boards major f ups.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I suppose it depends how many new stands and training centres we build.

Didn't the golden generation square that off for us?

[Peevemor]

Didn't the golden generation square that off for us?

Just the training centre.

[Mikey]

Didn't the golden generation square that off for us?

The feeling is that the money for the north and south stands has never been repaid. And it just so happens the the cost is thought to be £5m!!

See post 50 onwards........

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?135671-So-what-happened-to-the-money-from-the-car-park

[Just Alf]

In pub (since lunch time) and getting a huge wind up from some Yams (most of which are family :-( )
Was pointed to this thread.... They're really loving this :-(


Thanks guys ...

[davy malcolm]

The detail isn't too tricky.

First issue is the debt - after we agreed the deal with the bank the holding compnay were left with a total debt of £9.5 million. £4.5 million of that has been swapped for equity in Hibs and so effectively written off in terms of being a sum due to be repaid. Just to be clear on this, the owners of the holding company have written off actual money that has been handed over previously either to the club or the bank, in return for some more shares.

So, new shares are now being created and offered for sale by Hibs, with the proceeds you pay going straight to Hibs. This creates what you call dilution which means the overall value of the existing shareholders is less because you have potentially about double the shares in issue. Again important, if there was any shenanigans going on the current owners would surely not be agreeing to dilute the value of their holdings?

Whether you find a way to buy direct or whether you join HSL who will buy shares direct, the money still goes to the club. HSL is essentially a donation in exchange for a memership. They will use youir money to buy shares that they will hold.

Focus appears to be on the repayment of the debt. Well, it's now £5 million instead of the full £9.5 million so it would be wierd to write all that off, accept dilution on shares and then have a repayment rate or term that screwed us wouldn't it?

The focus is also on sporting ambition which the money is to be used for - and the possibility of it being used to repay debt. Even if it was that is still an operating expense of the football club and it doesn't matter which income stream you take that part from.

If you have £5 from season ticket money and £5 from share income and you need to repay £2 of that to existing debt you are left with £8 for other things. You are left with £8 for other things regardless of which pot you make the debt payment from.

They are determined to see a con here and are ignoring the very big issues such as debt write off and dilution to focus on the wording of sporting ambition and the margins on a £5m debt repayment.

well said sir

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

I don't think I've ever read a thread with so much fail since kickback's match day thread for our semi final against Falkirk.

[Lee Marvin]

I take it that's aimed at me. Not once did I mention confrontation. So you can forget that. It's far easier to speak face to face. Like the majority of Hibs fans I speak to in real life manage without hiding behind made up names on a forum.

You are doing a really fantastic job of lobbying on here I must say....

Thank the good lord we (Hibernian fc) managed to swerve being run by your mob

[Pete]

I take it that's aimed at me. Not once did I mention confrontation. So you can forget that. It's far easier to speak face to face. Like the majority of Hibs fans I speak to in real life manage without hiding behind made up names on a forum.

This is 2015 and Internet communication should be embraced and managed by any group such as yourselves that wants to take themselves seriously. It shouldn't be ridiculed and you should know better than to bite when it comes to guys who you feel are insulting you.

These forums actually make it easier to communicate facts and ask questions as you have time to think about what you are writing and have more time to digest answers.

The fact that you've answers no questions and want to meet people face to face tells me one of two things are true. You are either going to start suddenly furnishings people with facts or you are going to try and intimidate them. Which one is it?

[Pretty Boy]

The good thing about this thread is at least it has shifted the 140 year anniversary thread down the board.

[jacomo]

In pub (since lunch time) and getting a huge wind up from some Yams (most of which are family :-( )
Was pointed to this thread.... They're really loving this :-(


Thanks guys ...

Laughing at a club for scrutinising its owners and paying its debts? We already knew they were shameless hypocrites, so no news here..

[CropleyWasGod]

I would agree with you if the club paid off the full amount to the Bank. I don't believe they did, so we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

The original debt to the holding company was actually £3M, not £2.75M. From the accounts there was a £250K "Parent company loan" in addition to the £2.75M in "Amounts due to parent company"

I think Leean's latest statement answers most of your questions.

We owed £9.3m, which ties in with the accounts, and my scenario. We now owe £5m.

[Lurkio]

I think Leean's latest statement answers most of your questions.

We owed £9.3m, which ties in with the accounts, and my scenario. We now owe £5m.

The statement answers me in part, and I heartily welcome the reduction in debt. However I still have difficulty in reconciling the claim of the holding company having written off £4.5M as opposed to the Bank having done so (i.e. real money written off)

Leeann states that the Bank debt was "bought" (at an undisclosed price). That fits in with the scenario I painted. I believe the holding company has advanced the £2M or less to the club to enable it to settle the three Bank mortgages at a significant discount. That £2M or so has been added to the £3M already owed to the holding company to produce the £5M. In practical terms the holding company hasn't written off any actual cash.

[Bleeds green]

In pub (since lunch time) and getting a huge wind up from some Yams (most of which are family :-( )
Was pointed to this thread.... They're really loving this :-(


Thanks guys ...

Who cares


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete]

It's time for HOH to just stop nit-picking and get on board in my opinion.

[CropleyWasGod]

The statement answers me in part, and I heartily welcome the reduction in debt. However I still have difficulty in reconciling the claim of the holding company having written off £4.5M as opposed to the Bank having done so (i.e. real money written off)

Leeann states that the Bank debt was "bought" (at an undisclosed price). That fits in with the scenario I painted. I believe the holding company has advanced the £2M or less to the club to enable it to settle the three Bank mortgages at a significant discount. That £2M or so has been added to the £3M already owed to the holding company to produce the £5M. In practical terms the holding company hasn't written off any actual cash.

The "significant discount" would be 70%. For a business that is well covered by security, and which has been able to service the debt properly, that would be less "significant" than "bloody outrageous". :greengrin

However, LD has closed the door on the argument being settled.

[Andy74]

The statement answers me in part, and I heartily welcome the reduction in debt. However I still have difficulty in reconciling the claim of the holding company having written off £4.5M as opposed to the Bank having done so (i.e. real money written off)

Leeann states that the Bank debt was "bought" (at an undisclosed price). That fits in with the scenario I painted. I believe the holding company has advanced the £2M or less to the club to enable it to settle the three Bank mortgages at a significant discount. That £2M or so has been added to the £3M already owed to the holding company to produce the £5M. In practical terms the holding company hasn't written off any actual cash.

Nah, she pointedly mentions support of the holding company several times as well as noting we got external funding.

There's nothing to support your guesswork as opposed to some clear statements on the debt and arrangements which supports the holding company paying it off.

[matty_f]

Nah, she pointedly mentions support if holding company several times as well as noting we got external funding.

There's nothing to support your guesswork as opposed to some clear statements if the debt and arrangements which supports the holding company paying it off.

:agree: clutching at straws to suggest otherwise now, IMHO.

[Hibbyradge]

HoH and BH were flying a kite before the share issue.

However, they are now entirely irrelevant. Noisy for now, but they're in their death throes and utterly irrelevant.

STF, RP et al have done brilliantly to get the deal with the bank and the shares plan is exciting.

I'll be buying shares, hopefully directly, but through HSL if needs must.