£800k loss

[Ozyhibby]

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-post-a-loss-of-800k-1-3659213

[Geo_1875]

Not a surprise given the circumstances of last season. I was expecting it to be worse.

What is shocking is the TV income considering the amount of games and dodgy kick-off times that we were involved in. Maybe time to have a look at how the money is distributed.

[Billy Whizz]

Can't see it being much better this year, with reduced attendances, unless we get to the cup final

[jacomo]

Yes, some were (quite reasonably) expecting a loss of around £1m, so not as catastrophic as that. However, turnover fell to £5.8m (drop in ticket sales being a major factor here) so in % terms that loss is pretty heavy. A fairly awful set of results however you cut it.

Also, the pay off (or extended gardening leave) for Butcher isn't covered by these results, although any compensation paid to ICT will be. Salary costs will be up again this season with all the new staff on board. Credit to Pat Fenlon for not waiting around for a pay off too - a man of integrity, regardless of any shortcomings in his tenure as manager.

[HFC 0-7]

Yes, some were (quite reasonably) expecting a loss of around £1m, so not as catastrophic as that. However, turnover fell to £5.8m (drop in ticket sales being a major factor here) so in % terms that loss is pretty heavy. A fairly awful set of results however you cut it.

Also, the pay off (or extended gardening leave) for Butcher isn't covered by these results, although any compensation paid to ICT will be. Salary costs will be up again this season with all the new staff on board. Credit to Pat Fenlon for not waiting around for a pay off too - a man of integrity, regardless of any shortcomings in his tenure as manager.

Turnover fell 2.2 million partly because of the outsourcing of the club store. I wonder if the savings by outsourcing reflected the drop in turnover? Probably never know unless you know the previous turnover of the store i suppose.

[Andy74]

Debt was £6.3 m to bank and £3 m to holding company.

Anyone still think the bank have written anything off?

Looks like £5 m debt continues and £4.5 m swapped for equity so there doesn't seem to be any hit for the bank.

[madhatter]

Can't see it being much better this year, with reduced attendances, unless we get to the cup final

The attendances haven't been that much lower. From recollection last 15 games at least excluding Killie, Hamilton and Hearts games were around the 10-13k mark. We have been continuously around the 8-11k mark this season. Not a massive change and I would suspect wages offered have been changed accordingly. Our squad is also thin and u20s is the smallest I've seen it for a while.

I'd be very disappointed if we registered a high loss this year with our current squad size and our exceedingly expensive ticket prices (£405 ST and £20-22 per game).

Having said all this, performances must improve (drawing 3-3 at home against Falkirk and dropping 7 out of 9 points to them is not good enough). We have the ST prices of a top 4 team in the Premiership and we have the results of a half-decent Championship club. Performances ultimately in sport define the financial side of the business.

[greenginger]

Debt was £6.3 m to bank and £3 m to holding company.

Anyone still think the bank have written anything off?

Looks like £5 m debt continues and £4.5 m swapped for equity so there doesn't seem to be any hit for the bank.


These figures are as things were at 30th June 2014.

There might be an after end of year note in the accounts when they are issued.

[Keith_M]

No big surprise at the level of the loss but I can't help thinking it'll be much worse in the next set of accounts.


The pathetic level of money we currently get from TV and lack of a League Sponsor contributes to the problem but there's little the club can do about this on its own. If the Head Honchos at the SFA/SPFL concentrated a bit more on selling our game and a bit less on predicting Armageddon, we might not have this problem.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Kind of shows how important a good run in the cups has been, and will be, to us. If we don't go up this season we will probably make it though another one, but failure to go up then will be a disaster.

The question is, if we are doing this badly what's the score with other clubs? If the SFA / SPFL don't get the finger out full time football is going to be restricted to a handful of clubs. Its time to reorganise the leagues and give summer football a shot. The last two games at ER its been freezing. Following a humping of the Zombies and a decent showing at the Wonga dome a crowd over 11K wouldn't have been unreasonable, I cant help thinking folk were put off by the cold.

[The_Sauz]

Not a surprise given the circumstances of last season. I was expecting it to be worse.

What is shocking is the TV income considering the amount of games and dodgy kick-off times that we were involved in. Maybe time to have a look at how the money is distributed.

Petrie said 2 years ago that Hibs lost money on the games that were covered by the TV and that the deal did not cover for the lose :agree:

[ScottB]

Petrie said 2 years ago that Hibs lost money on the games that were covered by the TV and that the deal did not cover for the lose :agree:

Said before Scottish football might benefit from no live TV, as the switch to presumably consistent 3pm kick offs and the like would help boost attendances.

[greenginger]

Track side advertising and shirt sponsorship would be less if no live TV.

A few sums need to be done.

[Mon Dieu4]

Debt was £6.3 m to bank and £3 m to holding company.

Anyone still think the bank have written anything off?

Looks like £5 m debt continues and £4.5 m swapped for equity so there doesn't seem to be any hit for the bank.

I do, the words having reached a settlement with bank of Scotland were used again, I genuinely can't see them having stumped up the full amount and just because the equity swap is at the same figures doesn't mean that's what was paid to the bank

[Squealing pig]

Be a lot more next year with being out the big league

[Ozyhibby]

Has the financial genius that is Rod Petrie now posted losses in 3 out of the last 4 years?

[Brightside]

Has the financial genius that is Rod Petrie now posted losses in 3 out of the last 4 years?

Thank god for this thread eh.... You;ve been struggling to have a pop recently. :greengrin

[Andy74]

I do, the words having reached a settlement with bank of Scotland were used again, I genuinely can't see them having stumped up the full amount and just because the equity swap is at the same figures doesn't mean that's what was paid to the bank

The holding company were owed £3m. That changed to £9.5m.

We will have made some additional losses since then but it suggests tge bank got all or a very large chunk of their money.

[Ozyhibby]

Thank god for this thread eh.... You;ve been struggling to have a pop recently. :greengrin

Not really considering we fell another 2 pts adrift again at the weekend. What is it now? 21 pts? I imagine you think it's all good though. :-)

[Brightside]

Not really considering we fell another 2 pts adrift again at the weekend. What is it now? 21 pts? I imagine you think it's all good though. :-)

So the 3-3 draw was Petries fault too? :confused: Its time to move on. Petrie admitted his faults, has got someone better in and we are moving forward. You cant move forward though if you keep looking back.

[CropleyWasGod]

Has the financial genius that is Rod Petrie now posted losses in 3 out of the last 4 years?

The new financial genius that is LD will preside over a loss in her first year. 100% record, in other words. :wink:

[Mikey]

Looks like £5 m debt continues and £4.5 m swapped for equity so there doesn't seem to be any hit for the bank.


I do, the words having reached a settlement with bank of Scotland were used again, I genuinely can't see them having stumped up the full amount and just because the equity swap is at the same figures doesn't mean that's what was paid to the bank

I reckon STF stumped up around half, so that's about £2m - £2.5m.

[easty]

I reckon STF stumped up around half, so that's about £2m - £2.5m.

Less than £2m I'd say.

[Ozyhibby]

So the 3-3 draw was Petries fault too? :confused: Its time to move on. Petrie admitted his faults, has got someone better in and we are moving forward. You cant move forward though if you keep looking back.

I'm looking at the here and now and we keep dropping points to far smaller clubs than us, we've lost money last year and we will lose money this year. Can't get much more in the present than that.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm looking at the here and now and we keep dropping points to far smaller clubs than us, we've lost money last year and we will lose money this year. Can't get much more in the present than that.

So blame LD, not RP.

And, while you're at it, give him the credit for the £500k parachute payment that will offset our loss this year. :greengrin

[Mikey]

Less than £2m I'd say.

Closer to £1.872m maybe :dunno:

:greengrin

[easty]

Closer to £1.872m maybe :dunno:

:greengrin

Aye somewhere round about that figure... :greengrin

[Andy74]

I reckon STF stumped up around half, so that's about £2m - £2.5m.

Not sure how that would work through. The holding company ended up with £9.5m debt and so £6.5m was added on top of the £3m already due to holding company.

The £4.5m is effectively being written off as the shares it is being swapped for are not worth a whole lot.

[ballengeich]

The loss is bad news and will restrict us in future. It looks like the proceeds of the share issue to fans will be used up in covering operating losses for this and last season. Even if we manage to get promotion this season there won't be much left for spending on players.

[Mikey]

The loss is bad news and will restrict us in future. It looks like the proceeds of the share issue to fans will be used up in covering operating losses for this and last season. Even if we manage to get promotion this season there won't be much left for spending on players.

Surely this loss was all squared away with the restructuring, this is the position as of the middle of summer.

It's not £800k added to the £5m parent company debt.

[CropleyWasGod]

The loss is bad news and will restrict us in future. It looks like the proceeds of the share issue to fans will be used up in covering operating losses for this and last season. Even if we manage to get promotion this season there won't be much left for spending on players.

Sorry, that's not correct. You can't just isolate the last two years. Accumulated reserves also include the profits of the previous years (8 out of 9 years, as the club are fond of telling us).

It's already been stated what the share issue proceeds will be used for.

[ballengeich]

Sorry, that's not correct. You can't just isolate the last two years. Accumulated reserves also include the profits of the previous years (8 out of 9 years, as the club are fond of telling us).

It's already been stated what the share issue proceeds will be used for.

In principle yes, but in practice any available resources are pooled and ring-fencing of money from a particular source is largely spin. If share issue money is nominally used for players then I reckon that other money to be spent on players will be reduced, though possibly not by the full amount. I don't see how a loss-making business can behave otherwise. If we go up this season and crowds grow perhaps things will be different.

[CropleyWasGod]

In principle yes, but in practice any available resources are pooled and ring-fencing of money from a particular source is largely spin. If share issue money is nominally used for players then I reckon that other money to be spent on players will be reduced, though possibly not by the full amount. I don't see how a loss-making business can behave otherwise. If we go up this season and crowds grow perhaps things will be different.

... which effectively means that you don't believe what the club has said.

Fair enough, but that's now edging towards commenting on the share issue. :cb

[Smartie]

I'm amazed it isn't a lot worse.

The runs to the cup finals will have papered over a lot of the cracks in the previous 2 years. Extra season tickets will have been sold off the back of the clever ticketing arrangements for these games too.

The high turnover of players (and management teams) will have cost a small fortune.

I get a feeling that although we have a small squad the credentials of the players we are signing seem to be better than in recent years, and are certainly impressive for the Championship. These will incur a relatively higher cost.

I could see these figures being a lot worse next year. And significantly worse the following year if we don't get out of this league.

[ballengeich]

... which effectively means that you don't believe what the club has said.

Fair enough, but that's now edging towards commenting on the share issue. :cb

As we'll never know what would have happened to the club's budget if the fans' share issue hadn't happened I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Perhaps I'm more cynical than you.

[jodjam]

Track side advertising and shirt sponsorship would be less if no live TV.

A few sums need to be done.

You will get a shock from track side advertising next year in accounts. It was totally overlooked close season. We made nothing from the permanent boards.

[Brightside]

As we'll never know what would have happened to the club's budget if the fans' share issue hadn't happened I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Perhaps I'm more cynical than you.

You should join HoH...they are at it again on Facebook.

[Billy Whizz]

You will get a shock from track side advertising next year in accounts. It was totally overlooked close season. We made nothing from the permanent boards.

Did we give them away for free?
Thought this area was subcontracted

[Turkish Green]

I'm amazed it isn't a lot worse.

The runs to the cup finals will have papered over a lot of the cracks in the previous 2 years. Extra season tickets will have been sold off the back of the clever ticketing arrangements for these games too.

The high turnover of players (and management teams) will have cost a small fortune.

I get a feeling that although we have a small squad the credentials of the players we are signing seem to be better than in recent years, and are certainly impressive for the Championship. These will incur a relatively higher cost.

I could see these figures being a lot worse next year. And significantly worse the following year if we don't get out of this league.

Next year's accounts will probably be much worse as they will include the cost of gardening and our reduced income from playing in the Championship. yes, the players salaries should be less but this will not offset the loss due to relegation.

[blackpoolhibs]

We can go one of two ways here, promotion and a good uptake of share sales and things start to look better. Staying in this division will probably mean less crowds and perhaps a smaller amount of shares sold.

We have problems that we all know about, how they are sorted all depends on the way the team go.

This could be a very important transfer window.

[jodjam]

Did we give them away for free?
Thought this area was subcontracted

The lads I know who have boards were not contacted until very recently. A new company met with these lads and new deals signed but in effect the first few months were free.

[Zondervan]

You should join HoH...they are at it again on Facebook.

When you say they are at it, I assume you mean they are asking pertinent questions that the fans need answered?


"Hibs fans have reasonable questions to ask regarding the £5m debt the club now owes the holding company (Tom Farmer) and the proposed new share issue. The Board's proposals represent the start of the process of change, not an end in themselves. Attempts to present them as a fait accompli represent another error of judgement"

I'm all for them keeping up the pressure as I personally feel there is a lack of transparency with what has happened with our Finances in recent years. Hibs need to detail explicitly all the monetary comings-and-goings in light of the figures presented today.

:aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

When you say they are at it, I assume you mean they are asking pertinent questions that the fans need answered?


"Hibs fans have reasonable questions to ask regarding the £5m debt the club now owes the holding company (Tom Farmer) and the proposed new share issue. The Board's proposals represent the start of the process of change, not an end in themselves. Attempts to present them as a fait accompli represent another error of judgement"

I'm all for them keeping up the pressure as I personally feel there is a lack of transparency with what has happened with our Finances in recent years. Hibs need to detail explicitly all the monetary comings-and-goings in light of the figures presented today.

:aok:

What more detail would you like? The AGM is coming up, and questions can be asked.

[jacomo]

We can go one of two ways here, promotion and a good uptake of share sales and things start to look better. Staying in this division will probably mean less crowds and perhaps a smaller amount of shares sold.

We have problems that we all know about, how they are sorted all depends on the way the team go.

This could be a very important transfer window.

:agree:

[emerald green]

I'm reading that according to Jamie Marwick (finance director) a failure to make significant progress in both cup competitions, having reached the Scottish Cup final the previous year, was behind a reduction in turnover from £8m to £5.8m.

Also, the effect of outsourcing the Hibs retail operation (the club shop I presume?) also had an effect, although it was stated this move had been a net benefit to the club. Operating costs were reduced from £3.3m to £2.4m partly as a result of that outsourcing.

What is the financial thinking in outsourcing Hibs retail operation? Presumably it's simply a cost cutting exercise? I had thought all the profits from merchandise sold at the club shop went directly to the club. Presumably that's not the case? Can anyone clarify this please? Thanks.

[Zondervan]

What more detail would you like? The AGM is coming up, and questions can be asked.

Agree re the AGM, and asking question then.

Hopefully someone in attendance will ask for clarity around what are the boards plans to reduce our debt to zero?

How much in hard cash has came from the board/company to reduce our overall debt, rather than just move it from BoS to the parent company?

How much interest will we be paying, and at what rate?

Or, even better, ask Tom Farmer to genuinely write off the debt as he can afford it.

Maybe the answers are out there already, but I just don't feel as enthusiastic about the long term plans today, compared with how I felt a week ago.

[Andy74]

Agree re the AGM, and asking question then.

Hopefully someone in attendance will ask for clarity around what are the boards plans to reduce our debt to zero?

How much in hard cash has came from the board/company to reduce our overall debt, rather than just move it from BoS to the parent company?

How much interest will we be paying, and at what rate?

Or, even better, ask Tom Farmer to genuinely write off the debt as he can afford it.

Maybe the answers are out there already, but I just don't feel as enthusiastic about the long term plans today, compared with how I felt a week ago.

This doesn't change the figure of £5m that is the total debt now. It was over £9m so the £4.5m has effectively been written off after moving it from the bank to the holding company. I don't think the equity they swapped it for will be worth too much, especially when it all gets diluted.

I don't think Sir Tom can be questioned on this one. The share offer dilutes the value of his holding as well as the amount effectively written off.

What has changed for you this week?

[SunshineOnLeith]

It does seem to be largely down to falling turnover rather than increased cost, so if we can put a winning team on the park the fans will come back and things will improve. Financial performance going hand in hand with footballing fortunes, as you'd expect from a football club. I'd be more concerned if we were making losses while doing well on the pitch.

[Andy74]

It does seem to be largely down to falling turnover rather than increased cost, so if we can put a winning team on the park the fans will come back and things will improve. Financial performance going hand in hand with footballing fortunes, as you'd expect from a football club. I'd be more concerned if we were making losses while doing well on the pitch.

And for those who didn't think we seriously tried to rebuild the team to get back up. How much more money should we be willing to lose? I'd think these figures will have got worse since these results.

[Mikey]

Agree re the AGM, and asking question then.

Hopefully someone in attendance will ask for clarity around what are the boards plans to reduce our debt to zero?

How much in hard cash has came from the board/company to reduce our overall debt, rather than just move it from BoS to the parent company?

How much interest will we be paying, and at what rate?

Or, even better, ask Tom Farmer to genuinely write off the debt as he can afford it.

Maybe the answers are out there already, but I just don't feel as enthusiastic about the long term plans today, compared with how I felt a week ago.

Some of those questions were covered here, although a few answers were deferred to the AGM....

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296496-Q-amp-A-With-Leeann-Dempster-re-Debt-Reduction-and-Share-Offer

[greenginger]

At the AGM about 4 years ago I asked for more detail as to how our turnover was made up. I gave the Hearts as an example ( I know )
They split the turnover into, Broadcasting, matchday, commercial and other income which would be a help.

Marwick said he would look into it. And did nothing !

[jonty]

When you say they are at it, I assume you mean they are asking pertinent questions that the fans need answered?


"Hibs fans have reasonable questions to ask regarding the £5m debt the club now owes the holding company (Tom Farmer) and the proposed new share issue. The Board's proposals represent the start of the process of change, not an end in themselves. Attempts to present them as a fait accompli represent another error of judgement"

I'm all for them keeping up the pressure as I personally feel there is a lack of transparency with what has happened with our Finances in recent years. Hibs need to detail explicitly all the monetary comings-and-goings in light of the figures presented today.

:aok:

I thought he was referring to the open salvo

Hibernian's latest financial statement reveals the club debt to the bank (£6.3m) and the holding company (Tom Farmer) (£3m) is significantly more that what Hands On Hibs had claimed earlier this season. At the time many supporters, briefed by the Board, said HOH were scaremongering and lying. Our actions have now been totally vindicated. The only mistake we made was in underestimating the scale of mismanagement at Hibs.
I'm also not sure how they see themselves as vindicated - for instance nothing in the accounts indicates asset stripping that HoH claimed.

Given the change in players, the clamour for new manager and backroom staff and the drop in income I'm pleasantly surprised the loss for the year is under £1million TBH.

[marinello59]

Agree re the AGM, and asking question then.

Hopefully someone in attendance will ask for clarity around what are the boards plans to reduce our debt to zero?

How much in hard cash has came from the board/company to reduce our overall debt, rather than just move it from BoS to the parent company?

How much interest will we be paying, and at what rate?

Or, even better, ask Tom Farmer to genuinely write off the debt as he can afford it.

Maybe the answers are out there already, but I just don't feel as enthusiastic about the long term plans today, compared with how I felt a week ago.

The **** stirrers at HoH will be delighted then. Their claims of vindication are laughable.

[Peevemor]

The **** stirrers at HoH will be delighted then. Their claims of vindication are laughable.

Agent! :rolleyes:

[TowerHibs]

Just been reading on Scotsman website that annual Accounts show a 25% drop in turnover and a large £800k loss mainly due to relegation.

expensive mistake Butcher has turned out to be!!!

[Ronniekirk]

Just been reading on Scotsman website that annual Accounts show a 25% drop in turnover and a large £800k loss mainly due to relegation.

expensive mistake Butcher has turned out to be!!!

Yep no question about that and next years accounts not likely to any better hence the view Promotion is key this year

[Caversham Green]

At the AGM about 4 years ago I asked for more detail as to how our turnover was made up. I gave the Hearts as an example ( I know )
They split the turnover into, Broadcasting, matchday, commercial and other income which would be a help.

Marwick said he would look into it. And did nothing !

The reason that HoMFC do that is that they are a PLC and are required by law to do so. It's generally accepted in the exciting world of accountancy that you don't publish any information in the annual accounts that you don't have to. Some of the smaller clubs don't disclose their turnover at all.

I'm not sure what benefit disclosure would give anyway beyond satisfying curiosity.

[brog]

Just been reading on Scotsman website that annual Accounts show a 25% drop in turnover and a large £800k loss mainly due to relegation.

expensive mistake Butcher has turned out to be!!!

I'm afraid that statement is just the usual lazy journalism. It's just not true. If Hamilton hadn't scored in the last minute we wouldn't have been relegated. The a/c's however would have been pretty similar to what they are now, perhaps another 500 seasons may have been sold before end July. Below is what Hibs actually said.

Turnover for the year fell from £8.0m in the previous year to £5.8m. The drop in Turnover reflects poorer sporting performance and the outsourcing of the management of the Club Store at the start of the Season.

Essentially gates fell after our ridiculous start to the season, picked up a tad after TB's arrival then fell away again. Despite that we had 4 of our highest gates in recent times vs Malmo, Yams, Killie & Hamilton. Apart from Yams we were badly let down on the other occasions. We lost the best part of £0.5m by finishing 11th rather than 6th or higher & we also lost out through no cup run as opposed to the prior 2 seasons. The impact of relegation will really only be felt this season but it will be cushioned by Yams & Sevco being in our league & the Championship being included in the TV deal.

[Mikey]

I'm afraid that statement is just the usual lazy journalism. It's just not true. If Hamilton hadn't scored in the last minute we wouldn't have been relegated. The a/c's however would have been pretty similar to what they are now, perhaps another 500 seasons may have been sold before end July. Below is what Hibs actually said.

Turnover for the year fell from £8.0m in the previous year to £5.8m. The drop in Turnover reflects poorer sporting performance and the outsourcing of the management of the Club Store at the start of the Season.

Essentially gates fell after our ridiculous start to the season, picked up a tad after TB's arrival then fell away again. Despite that we had 4 of our highest gates in recent times vs Malmo, Yams, Killie & Hamilton. Apart from Yams we were badly let down on the other occasions. We lost the best part of £0.5m by finishing 11th rather than 6th or higher & we also lost out through no cup run as opposed to the prior 2 seasons. The impact of relegation will really only be felt this season but it will be cushioned by Yams & Sevco being in our league & the Championship being included in the TV deal.

And the outsourcing of the club shop was down to lazy management.

LD is on the case though. That goes for catering too.

[greenginger]

I'm afraid that statement is just the usual lazy journalism. It's just not true. If Hamilton hadn't scored in the last minute we wouldn't have been relegated. The a/c's however would have been pretty similar to what they are now, perhaps another 500 seasons may have been sold before end July. Below is what Hibs actually said.

Turnover for the year fell from £8.0m in the previous year to £5.8m. The drop in Turnover reflects poorer sporting performance and the outsourcing of the management of the Club Store at the start of the Season.

Essentially gates fell after our ridiculous start to the season, picked up a tad after TB's arrival then fell away again. Despite that we had 4 of our highest gates in recent times vs Malmo, Yams, Killie & Hamilton. Apart from Yams we were badly let down on the other occasions. We lost the best part of £0.5m by finishing 11th rather than 6th or higher & we also lost out through no cup run as opposed to the prior 2 seasons. The impact of relegation will really only be felt this season but it will be cushioned by Yams & Sevco being in our league & the Championship being included in the TV deal.


And the half million parachute payment.

[Caversham Green]

I'm afraid that statement is just the usual lazy journalism. It's just not true. If Hamilton hadn't scored in the last minute we wouldn't have been relegated. The a/c's however would have been pretty similar to what they are now, perhaps another 500 seasons may have been sold before end July. Below is what Hibs actually said.

Turnover for the year fell from £8.0m in the previous year to £5.8m. The drop in Turnover reflects poorer sporting performance and the outsourcing of the management of the Club Store at the start of the Season.

Essentially gates fell after our ridiculous start to the season, picked up a tad after TB's arrival then fell away again. Despite that we had 4 of our highest gates in recent times vs Malmo, Yams, Killie & Hamilton. Apart from Yams we were badly let down on the other occasions. We lost the best part of £0.5m by finishing 11th rather than 6th or higher & we also lost out through no cup run as opposed to the prior 2 seasons. The impact of relegation will really only be felt this season but it will be cushioned by Yams & Sevco being in our league & the Championship being included in the TV deal.

To clarify the bold bit, none of the season tickets sold for this season will be reflected in the turnover for 2013-14, any drop in attendances will only have an impact in the current year's accounts.

[brog]

We're not helped by the usual pathetic journo's though. Gary Ralston in DR today has the headline of Hibs £1m loss. The detail underneath however says £800k. I guess they're really the same thing so when Gary goes to get his £1k wage this week the DR only needs to pay him £800! Typical really, Yams debts get understated, our losses get overstated!
FWIW, the losses are pretty much in line with my expectations though I didn't foresee the decline in turnover due to the outsourcing of the shop. A good cup run would really help, both in direct gate income & sales of season tickets for 2015/16.

[greenginger]

To clarify the bold bit, none of the season tickets sold for this season will be reflected in the turnover for 2013-14, any drop in attendances will only have an impact in the current year's accounts.


The account notes say Turnover represents all income derived from the operations .......

I think sales for next seasons are included in turnover but classed as creditors on the balance sheet.

[CropleyWasGod]

Haven't seen the accounts yet, but is there any indication as to whether the £500k parachute payment was included in the 2014 income?

[brog]

To clarify the bold bit, none of the season tickets sold for this season will be reflected in the turnover for 2013-14, any drop in attendances will only have an impact in the current year's accounts.

I was unaware of that Cav. I can understand why that would happen, basically matching the a/c's to the season's activities but I've never seen any note in the a/c's to that effect. Presumably they treat tickets sold before end July as prepayments? It does however make my point more forcefully, relegation per se had no effect on our a/c's for last year.

[Caversham Green]

The account notes say Turnover represents all income derived from the operations .......

I think sales for next seasons are included in turnover but classed as creditors on the balance sheet.

That's all income derived from operations in the year being reported on - the season tickets relate to future operations.

In technical terms the double entry is Dr Cash (or debtors)/ Cr Deferred Income - both of these are Balance Sheet categories and the STs can't appear in both turnover and creditors as both are on the same side of the trial balance.

[CropleyWasGod]

I was unaware of that Cav. I can understand why that would happen, basically matching the a/c's to the season's activities but I've never seen any note in the a/c's to that effect. Presumably they treat tickets sold before end July as prepayments? It does however make my point more forcefully, relegation per se had no effect on our a/c's for last year.

I would agree with that up to a point.

Whilst there were reduced attendances in the Butcher era, that was happening anyway because of the crap fitba. There would also have been a reduced SPFL payment because we finished 2nd bottom.

The real killer, compared to the previous seasons, was the lack of a cup run.

[Caversham Green]

Haven't seen the accounts yet, but is there any indication as to whether the £500k parachute payment was included in the 2014 income?

Reading FC treated them as future income - i.e. put them into the lower league years - and I would imagine Hibs will do the same. That makes sense to me as the intention behind the payments is to soften the impact that relegation has on the club's finances.

[brog]

I would agree with that up to a point.

Whilst there were reduced attendances in the Butcher era, that was happening anyway because of the crap fitba. There would also have been a reduced SPFL payment because we finished 2nd bottom.

The real killer, compared to the previous seasons, was the lack of a cup run.

I agree the bit in bold is probably the single biggest factor & I know I'm being a tad pedantic & playing Devil's Advocate but if we'd beaten Hamilton in the play-offs we would not have been relegated yet our a/c's would have been the same. As Hibs say, the loss is down to poor performances & other factors.

[Caversham Green]

I was unaware of that Cav. I can understand why that would happen, basically matching the a/c's to the season's activities but I've never seen any note in the a/c's to that effect. Presumably they treat tickets sold before end July as prepayments? It does however make my point more forcefully, relegation per se had no effect on our a/c's for last year.

See my reply to Greenginger re the treatment, and you're right about relegation having no effect on these accounts. If Butcher's Bunglers had held out for that extra minute the accounts would have looked exactly the same.

We would have lost out on that half-million parachute payment though. And two home derbies and two home Sevco games.

And Butcher might have been kept on as manager.

[CropleyWasGod]

Reading FC treated them as future income - i.e. put them into the lower league years - and I would imagine Hibs will do the same. That makes sense to me as the intention behind the payments is to soften the impact that relegation has on the club's finances.

It makes sense to me, too.

I'm just concerned that it's been included as 2014 income as a "prize" that relates to that season, in the same way that the SPFL money is treated.

[Liberal Hibby]

Surely if the effect of outsourcing the management of the store should be broadly neutral (or even positive) - otherwise why do it?

You don't simply give away the sales income - you get a contract fee and/or % of sales or other up front income and lower your cost base with reduced staff/insurance etc budget.

I can't see the point of outsourcing under these terms.

[Andy74]

Surely if the effect of outsourcing the management of the store should be broadly neutral (or even positive) - otherwise why do it?

You don't simply give away the sales income - you get a contract fee and/or % of sales or other up front income and lower your cost base with reduced staff/insurance etc budget.

I can't see the point of outsourcing under these terms.

Yep, haven't seen any related detail on this - I buy stuff just to give Hibs a bit of revenue when I can. Does this mean that there's been no benefit to Hibs in me doing so recently?

When is it intended we will see a benefit from this, whatever the deal might have been?

[Mikey]

You can see the accounts here......

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297211-****The-Accounts-To-31st-July-2014-See-Them-Here****