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Mikey
13-01-2015, 12:03 AM
This thread is for the discussion of the share offer. Please read the Important Info thread here…

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297129-Hibernian-FC-Share-Offer-Important-Information

As you can see, individuals are not allowed to give any advice or say anything that can be construed as giving advice.

Mikey
13-01-2015, 12:03 AM
The information sent out today is for existing shareholders only. Presumably there will be a follow up shortly for anyone else who wants to buy shares.

Onceinawhile
13-01-2015, 06:17 AM
Well I'm in. Hopefully there's either a low entry level or a monthly payment scheme. Find out when the old man gets the info.

Matty_Jack04
13-01-2015, 06:56 AM
I would like to get involved in this but like others hopefull of some sort of monthly contribution offer/ low entry as it's not affordable just now....especially with Mrs jack after 2 holidays...she just doesn't get it :cb

HH81
13-01-2015, 07:27 AM
Has anyone received the details yet? 😊

Mikey
13-01-2015, 08:31 AM
Let's try and keep it on topic for a wee while folks. It is quite important to us all :wink:

Mikey
13-01-2015, 08:38 AM
A wee reminder of what was said when it was announced.....

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/5060

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30624431

Ronniekirk
13-01-2015, 08:57 AM
Has anyone received the details yet? 
No ,but the postman hasn't been yet .

Mikey
13-01-2015, 09:03 AM
A wee reminder of what was said at the recent Q&A.........


First things first, LD was unable to answer all of the questions posed because of certain restrictions. Many of the issues raised will be presented to the shareholders at the AGM so we won’t get those answers until 28th January. Another restriction was caused by new financial rules introduced on 1st October to protect share buyers. These rules were brought in to help regulate “crowdfunding”, however instances like ours have fallen between the cracks and the club has to be very careful. As an example, the club isn’t allowed to recommend that supporters buy shares, they can only word it in such a way as to offer supporters “the chance to get involved”. It might sound the same but in legal terms it’s completely different!

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296496-Q-amp-A-With-Leeann-Dempster-re-Debt-Reduction-and-Share-Offer

Ozyhibby
13-01-2015, 09:17 AM
During the yams share offering and FoH fund raising kickback was full of people urging fellow fans to part with their cash.
Puts us at a bit of a disadvantage.

Mikey
13-01-2015, 09:19 AM
I would like to get involved in this but like others hopefull of some sort of monthly contribution offer/ low entry as it's not affordable just now....especially with Mrs jack after 2 holidays...she just doesn't get it :cb

I would think that we'll just get the bare bones today such as price, minimum purchase, etc. Any bells and whistles are likely to follow later.

Mikey
13-01-2015, 09:24 AM
During the yams share offering and FoH fund raising kickback was full of people urging fellow fans to part with their cash.
Puts us at a bit of a disadvantage.

A prime example of why the new legislation was brought in!

Ozyhibby
13-01-2015, 09:27 AM
Are people allowed to post the reasons that they are buying share?
Can I say that I'm buying a small amount of shares in Hibs because I love the club and that I understand that the value of these shares is likely to drop close to zero in the future but I'm delighted to be doing so as I wish to have a say in how my club is run and I'm delighted the money is going to fund our future sporting ambitions?

Mikey
13-01-2015, 09:31 AM
Are people allowed to post the reasons that they are buying share?
Can I say that I'm buying a small amount of shares in Hibs because I love the club and that I understand that the value of these shares is likely to drop close to zero in the future but I'm delighted to be doing so as I wish to have a say in how my club is run and I'm delighted the money is going to fund our future sporting ambitions?

I think so.

Maybe :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
13-01-2015, 09:54 AM
Are people allowed to post the reasons that they are buying share?
Can I say that I'm buying a small amount of shares in Hibs because I love the club and that I understand that the value of these shares is likely to drop close to zero in the future but I'm delighted to be doing so as I wish to have a say in how my club is run and I'm delighted the money is going to fund our future sporting ambitions?

Me too :greengrin

Scònaldò
13-01-2015, 10:14 AM
This is a real share issue right? Not a fake hearts one?

offshorehibby
13-01-2015, 11:01 AM
Grrrr, heard the post drop through the letter box, off like a greyhound out the traps only to get a holiday brochure. Guess i'll have to wait till tomorrow now.

Keith_M
13-01-2015, 11:06 AM
Is there any worthwhile contribution that Posters CAN make to this discussion without falling foul of the quoted rules and regulations?


It just seems that this is a pointless thread, under the circumstances.


:confused:

lyonhibs
13-01-2015, 11:30 AM
Is there any worthwhile contribution that Posters CAN make to this discussion without falling foul of the quoted rules and regulations?


It just seems that this is a pointless thread, under the circumstances.


:confused:

That's what I thought as well.

Everyone will have to caveat practically every post and chuck in a few "allegedly's" in there to avoid getting a rap on their door from the FSA at 3am.

If people are unduly influenced by what people post on an anonymous internet forum, they want their heids looking at *




*I would like to state that this is entirely a personal opinion and does not reflect upon the official opinion or standpoint of Mikey, hibs.net or any subsidiary/affiliated companies. :greengrin

PatHead
13-01-2015, 12:47 PM
This thread is for the discussion of the share offer. Please read the Important Info thread here…

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297129-Hibernian-FC-Share-Offer-Important-Information

As you can see, individuals are not allowed to give any advice or say anything that can be construed as giving advice.

Just to back Mikey up I posted this on the pm board.

New regulations came into effect in October/November time. Basically they were to protect folk from buying shares in unlisted companies without being aware of the risks or taking financial advice.

FCA are very big on how much a person can afford to lose. £250 may not sound much to a lot of people but if you are pensioner on £160 per week it is a hell of a lot. Sometimes people need protected from themselves.

It will make it much more difficult for Hibs to promote the shares and it is unlikely they will all be bought by existing shareholders.

It is a criminal offence to make recommendations if you are not authorised to do so therefore NEVER EVER TELL ANYONE THEY SHOULD BUY SHARES IF YOU ARE NOT AUTHORISED.

The bottom line is that this will be an emotional investment and you have to be prepared to lose all your money.

PatHead
13-01-2015, 12:51 PM
Are people allowed to post the reasons that they are buying share?
Can I say that I'm buying a small amount of shares in Hibs because I love the club and that I understand that the value of these shares is likely to drop close to zero in the future but I'm delighted to be doing so as I wish to have a say in how my club is run and I'm delighted the money is going to fund our future sporting ambitions?

In the above case there should be no problem.

If however you had added " and I think anyone else who feels like that should buy shares as well". you could be getting too close to the mark and a Jambo would report you to the FCA.

It is that tight and nothing that could be interpreted as a recommendation should be said.

Andy74
13-01-2015, 12:55 PM
Just to back Mikey up I posted this on the pm board.

New regulations came into effect in October/November time. Basically they were to protect folk from buying shares in unlisted companies without being aware of the risks or taking financial advice.

FCA are very big on how much a person can afford to lose. £250 may not sound much to a lot of people but if you are pensioner on £160 per week it is a hell of a lot. Sometimes people need protected from themselves.

It will make it much more difficult for Hibs to promote the shares and it is unlikely they will all be bought by existing shareholders.

It is a criminal offence to make recommendations if you are not authorised to do so therefore NEVER EVER TELL ANYONE THEY SHOULD BUY SHARES IF YOU ARE NOT AUTHORISED.

The bottom line is that this will be an emotional investment and you have to be prepared to lose all your money.

Let's not get too excited. The FCA are unlikely to be the least bit interested in this. Most of the discussions here will also be around the obvious fact that this is not an investment decision but an emotional one based in support of a football team.

As Hibs have said, it's a good chance to get involved in Hibs with money going to the club.

ahibby
13-01-2015, 12:56 PM
I am not saying that you should or should not buy shares when they become available (ahibby disclaimer 2015). I will buy what I can afford to buy knowing that the money raised will go to the club and not to existing shareholders, and that in the future the same might or might not happen again. I suppose that would mean if future shares become available in addition to those being made available now, then my share might or might not be watered down and I might or might not see any money from it in future.

Mikey
13-01-2015, 02:57 PM
Did any shareholders get the accounts and share offer info today? I got nothing here.

Mikey09
13-01-2015, 03:04 PM
Grrrr, heard the post drop through the letter box, off like a greyhound out the traps only to get a holiday brochure. Guess i'll have to wait till tomorrow now.


Pass the brochure onto Matty_Jack04.... His Mrs will be interested in it!!! :greengrin

southsider
13-01-2015, 03:06 PM
Just to back Mikey up I posted this on the pm board.

New regulations came into effect in October/November time. Basically they were to protect folk from buying shares in unlisted companies without being aware of the risks or taking financial advice.

FCA are very big on how much a person can afford to lose. £250 may not sound much to a lot of people but if you are pensioner on £160 per week it is a hell of a lot. Sometimes people need protected from themselves.

It will make it much more difficult for Hibs to promote the shares and it is unlikely they will all be bought by existing shareholders.

It is a criminal offence to make recommendations if you are not authorised to do so therefore NEVER EVER TELL ANYONE THEY SHOULD BUY SHARES IF YOU ARE NOT AUTHORISED.

The bottom line is that this will be an emotional investment and you have to be prepared to lose all your money.
I hate all this namby-pamby rubbish. If you are over 18 do with your own cash what the hell you like, just as long as it's legal.

jacomo
13-01-2015, 05:13 PM
I hate all this namby-pamby rubbish. If you are over 18 do with your own cash what the hell you like, just as long as it's legal.

Or even illegal, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else. :wink:

Scouse Hibee
13-01-2015, 06:35 PM
Surely this has been taken just a bit too literally, football supporters on a fans forum talking about the share issue is hardly the practice the law was aimed at. Fair play to Mikey for ensuring .net does not fall foul but all seems a bit OTT to me.

Ronniekirk
13-01-2015, 07:05 PM
Did any shareholders get the accounts and share offer info today? I got nothing here.
Nope didn't even get any post just a charity bag to fill :rolleyes:

oldbutdim
13-01-2015, 07:09 PM
Surely this has been taken just a bit too literally, football supporters on a fans forum talking about the share issue is hardly the practice the law was aimed at. Fair play to Mikey for ensuring .net does not fall foul but all seems a bit OTT to me.

Spot on.

Northernhibee
13-01-2015, 07:59 PM
TBF if the yams had sold their supporters shares surely they'd have had certificates by now?:confused:

Onceinawhile
13-01-2015, 08:02 PM
TBF if the yams had sold their supporters shares surely they'd have had certificates by now?:confused:

They do have.

Northernhibee
13-01-2015, 08:25 PM
They do have.

Even the ones when they were getting kids emptying out their piggie banks?

JHFC
13-01-2015, 08:52 PM
ive not read this forum but does anyone know if this will be a one off payment or a pay monthly direct debit? And how much are we looking at for a share: £50+ £100+?

Mikey
13-01-2015, 08:56 PM
ive not read this forum but does anyone know if this will be a one off payment or a pay monthly direct debit? And how much are we looking at for a share: £50+ £100+?

We don't have answers to any of that yet as no-one appears to have rceived the documents. The EEN ran the story about the accounts so today was obviously supposed to be the day it all kicked off.

Hopefully the postie will be kind to us tomorrow :greengrin

CropleyWasGod
14-01-2015, 07:55 AM
Even the ones when they were getting kids emptying out their piggie banks?
Those shares weren't received. However, the last HMFC accounts said that IIRC all those affected would either be replaced or money refunded.

MacBean
14-01-2015, 11:36 AM
looks like we'll be buying shares in Hibernian Supporters Limited rather than Hibernian FC/ Holdings.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-unveil-supporter-share-plan-1-3660473

Mikey
14-01-2015, 12:47 PM
I think we need to out together a basic facts sheet as all the permutations are a bit confusing, particularly with the launch of Hibernian Supporters Limited.

Hopefully we'll get that done later today or tomorrow.

Mikey
14-01-2015, 02:30 PM
Some info regarding buying shares yourself, not through HSL.....

Minimum purchase £200 (5,000 shares)

Maximum purchase £125,000 (3,125,000 shares)

Andy74
14-01-2015, 02:33 PM
Some info regarding buying shares yourself, not through HSL.....

Minimum purchase £200 (5,000 shares)

Maximum purchase £125,000 (3,125,000 shares)

Thanks Mikey - gutted about the maximum though. :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
14-01-2015, 02:40 PM
Some info regarding buying shares yourself, not through HSL.....

Minimum purchase £200 (5,000 shares)

Maximum purchase £125,000 (3,125,000 shares)

5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

Berwickhibby
14-01-2015, 02:49 PM
5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

I think, personally I will buy shares for myself and own them, rather than pay into this HSL Scheme. Not anti the scheme if others opt for this, just not for me.

southsider
14-01-2015, 02:52 PM
Are children under 18 allowed to own shares or do they need an adult to hold them until they reach that age ?

Sergio sledge
14-01-2015, 02:54 PM
5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

I think the press releases earlier suggested that the number of shares in Hibs would be increased to 125,000,000 with this new issue. The total amount going to Hibs if all the new shares were bought (51% of 125,000,000) was going to be around £2.5m, so 4p a share seems about right.

Mikey
14-01-2015, 03:07 PM
5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

I've double checked and what I put is what is on the piece of paper I read. You know, the one we must not speak about :greengrin

Baldy Foghorn
14-01-2015, 03:10 PM
5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

Just read documentation, should have done so before posting. I assumed (wrongly) it would be 25p per share. Now after reading documentation I see where figures arrive from

PatHead
14-01-2015, 03:37 PM
Thanks Mikey - gutted about the maximum though. :greengrin

Could Mrs Andy74 not buy the maximum as well?

Mikey
14-01-2015, 06:41 PM
I've been asking around today and so far any efforts to either bypass or simplify the need for a new shareholder to go through an IFA have been unsuccessful. Not for the want of trying it seems!

If you aren't an existing shareholder, want fan ownership, and you don't want to jump through hoops then contributing to Hibernian Supporters Limited is the way to do it.

Danderhall Hibs
14-01-2015, 07:00 PM
I've been asking around today and so far any efforts to either bypass or simplify the need for a new shareholder to go through an IFA have been unsuccessful. Not for the want of trying it seems!

If you aren't an existing shareholder, want fan ownership, and you don't want to jump through hoops then contributing to Hibernian Supporters Limited is the way to do it.

Are you saying if you're not a shareholder right now you can't buy a new share?

Mikey
14-01-2015, 07:04 PM
Are you saying if you're not a shareholder wight now you can't buy a new share?

As things stand non shareholders have to go through an IFA before you can buy.

These regulations are a PITA and are bound to have an impact, but as someone pointed out to me there was a dafty who "bought" £64,000 in Hearts shares and he'll never see that money again. It's cases like this that prompted the new rules.

Danderhall Hibs
14-01-2015, 07:05 PM
As things stand non shareholders have to go through an IFA before you can buy.

These regulations are a PITA and are bound to have an impact, but as someone pointed out to me there was a dafty who "bought" £64,000 in Hearts shares and he'll never see that money again. It's cases like this that prompted the new rules.

Cheers Mikey.

basehibby
14-01-2015, 07:25 PM
Well I'm definately up for this - skint but I always am anyway and knowing that I'll be helping make my Football club (hopefully) a bit more successfull - and as a result will, at least symbolically, own a wee bit of it - well that's priceless isn't it?!?

Every Hibs fan should be up for this IMO.

BTW - does anyone know wtf an IFA is when it's at home - Italian Football Association is the best I could come up with.

Andy74
14-01-2015, 07:31 PM
I've been asking around today and so far any efforts to either bypass or simplify the need for a new shareholder to go through an IFA have been unsuccessful. Not for the want of trying it seems!

If you aren't an existing shareholder, want fan ownership, and you don't want to jump through hoops then contributing to Hibernian Supporters Limited is the way to do it.

Eh? I can buy just about any share I want direct. This seems a strange one.

Mikey
14-01-2015, 07:34 PM
Eh? I can buy just about any share I want direct. This seems a strange one.

New rules!

stantonhibby
14-01-2015, 07:40 PM
Well I'm definately up for this - skint but I always am anyway and knowing that I'll be helping make my Football club (hopefully) a bit more successfull - and as a result will, at least symbolically, own a wee bit of it - well that's priceless isn't it?!?

Every Hibs fan should be up for this IMO.

BTW - does anyone know wtf an IFA is when it's at home - Italian Football Association is the best I could come up with.


Independent financial adviser

Caversham Green
14-01-2015, 07:43 PM
5000 shares for £200 would make each share 4p, is it not 800 shares for £200?

The nominal value of each share is 2p so that means there's a premium of 2p on top.

BTW the nominal value of shares doesn't really mean a great deal.

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 07:44 PM
I thought it was share holders had to be offered the right to buy first then it could be opened up to other supporters on the data base.

NYHibby
14-01-2015, 07:48 PM
Eh? I can buy just about any share I want direct. This seems a strange one.

I don't want to run foul of this site's no investment advice rule so this article on crowdfunding may be "enlightening"

https://www.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/133965/Crowdfunding.pdf

Andy74
14-01-2015, 07:52 PM
I don't want to run foul of this site's no investment advice rule so this article on crowdfunding may be "enlightening"

https://www.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/133965/Crowdfunding.pdf

I've seen rules on crowd funding which captures some equity. However, as far as I'm aware investors not getting advice can certify that they are not investing a significant part of their portfolio for example. I don't think the only way to offer shares is to make people go through an IFA.

If buying shares direct is not an option I would probably be out.

HH81
14-01-2015, 08:03 PM
I own 1000s of shares and have never spoke to IFA in my life and never will.

Capt Mainwaring
14-01-2015, 08:04 PM
Count me in - I'm investing because I believe in broadening fan ownership, and happy that the investment I make will help contribute to the sporting ambitions of the Club I feel passionately about.

I like the option to pay by monthly contributions but if I can afford it at the time will likely pay a lump sum.

Getting ready to buy the frame for the Share Certificate already!

HH81
14-01-2015, 08:05 PM
Count me in - I'm investing because I believe in broadening fan ownership, and happy that the investment I make will help contribute to the sporting ambitions of the Club I feel passionately about.

I like the option to pay by monthly contributions but if I can afford it at the time will likely pay a lump sum.

Getting ready to buy the frame for the Share Certificate already!

Don't think you will need a frame.

NYHibby
14-01-2015, 08:08 PM
I've seen rules on crowd funding which captures some equity. However, as far as I'm aware investors not getting advice can certify that they are not investing a significant part of their portfolio for example. I don't think the only way to offer shares is to make people go through an IFA.

If buying shares direct is not an option I would probably be out.

You're right that "must go through IFA" is an oversimplification of the law, and is rather risk adverse at that. I'm personally not an expert in this area and I wasn't trying to comment on the exceptions.

For other people reading, there is a difference between buying shares in a PLC through your broker and in an unlisted private company directly from the company.

CB_NO3
14-01-2015, 08:09 PM
Can someone explain something to me please? I read on another thread that you can buy shares direct from Hibs for £225 and you will be a shareholder and not through the HSL scheme. Is this the case or was this people getting confused on the matter?

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 08:26 PM
I am led to believe the Hibs will be contacting people who are not shareholders letting them know the procedure to follow to receive the same information pack.

Baldy Foghorn
14-01-2015, 08:33 PM
The nominal value of each share is 2p so that means there's a premium of 2p on top.

BTW the nominal value of shares doesn't really mean a great deal.

Cheers Cav, I posted that before reading the documentation - :doh:

Ozyhibby
14-01-2015, 08:41 PM
Can someone explain something to me please? I read on another thread that you can buy shares direct from Hibs for £225 and you will be a shareholder and not through the HSL scheme. Is this the case or was this people getting confused on the matter?

That is the case

Ozyhibby
14-01-2015, 08:41 PM
I am led to believe the Hibs will be contacting people who are not shareholders letting them know the procedure to follow to receive the same information pack.

Letter going out shortly to all on database

CB_NO3
14-01-2015, 08:44 PM
That is the case
And will that money also go towards the 2.5 million 'sporting ambition' fund?

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 08:45 PM
Letter going out shortly to all on database

Wasn't sure how much i could say without getting hung.

Eyrie
14-01-2015, 08:47 PM
Letter going out shortly to all on database


So how do you get on the database? Do you have to buy a ticket online for a game, or just buy merchandise online, or what other options are there?

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 08:50 PM
So how do you get on the database? Do you have to buy a ticket online for a game, or just buy merchandise online, or what other options are there?

I had to buy Mrs OS a ticket for a game a couple of seasons back to get her on the data base, not sure if things have changed regarding that.

StevieC
14-01-2015, 09:02 PM
Can someone explain something to me please? I read on another thread that you can buy shares direct from Hibs for £225 and you will be a shareholder and not through the HSL scheme. Is this the case or was this people getting confused on the matter?

You used to be able to but shares from Hibs at 50p per share, with a minimum purchase of 100 shares. I don't think it was ever used as a serious share purchase, and more of a novelty/gift item. It had to be done through the club though, as I don't think shares could be purchased on the open market. I suspect that this option is no longer available due to the current share issue.

My understanding, which could be totally wrong, is that current shareholders will be (have to be?) given the option to purchase additional shares in the new share issue. I'm not sure if non-shareholders can, or how easy it would be if they could, so the HSL seems like an easier way to be part of a supporter share purchase.

The way I see it, and again could be wrong, is that buying into the HSL route will give you 1 vote regardless of how many shares you have. Purchasing direct only gives you a percentage based on your overall share holding in comparison to the number of shares issued ie £225 (5,000 shares) equals one vote in HSL, or 0.004% if purchased direct from the club. To that end, the HSL route seems to provide you with a stronger voice than purchasing direct.

At the end of the day, IMO, supporters purchasing shares do so out of a sense of "belonging" to the club .. not because it's any sort of sound investment. This share issue seems to be a way of providing further working capital for the club, and providing a route for ordinary fans to provide the funds for that working capital, and providing fans that do invest to have a say (however small that might be) in how the club is run.

As far as I can see, Sir Tom is the one taking a hit on this by diluting his share holding. If there is a full take up of the share issue then all existing shareholders will effectively have their share holding halved.

We, as fans, often have a gripe about how the club is run .. and that the shareholders should be putting more money into the club. This looks like a way for ordinary supporters to actually do what we always shout about, and effectively have "shareholders" putting their own money into the club.



So for that reason .. I'm in. :wink:

Andy74
14-01-2015, 09:20 PM
You used to be able to but shares from Hibs at 50p per share, with a minimum purchase of 100 shares. I don't think it was ever used as a serious share purchase, and more of a novelty/gift item. It had to be done through the club though, as I don't think shares could be purchased on the open market. I suspect that this option is no longer available due to the current share issue.

My understanding, which could be totally wrong, is that current shareholders will be (have to be?) given the option to purchase additional shares in the new share issue. I'm not sure if non-shareholders can, or how easy it would be if they could, so the HSL seems like an easier way to be part of a supporter share purchase.

The way I see it, and again could be wrong, is that buying into the HSL route will give you 1 vote regardless of how many shares you have. Purchasing direct only gives you a percentage based on your overall share holding in comparison to the number of shares issued ie £225 (5,000 shares) equals one vote in HSL, or 0.004% if purchased direct from the club. To that end, the HSL route seems to provide you with a stronger voice than purchasing direct.

At the end of the day, IMO, supporters purchasing shares do so out of a sense of "belonging" to the club .. not because it's any sort of sound investment. This share issue seems to be a way of providing further working capital for the club, and providing a route for ordinary fans to provide the funds for that working capital, and providing fans that do invest to have a say (however small that might be) in how the club is run.

As far as I can see, Sir Tom is the one taking a hit on this by diluting his share holding. If there is a full take up of the share issue then all existing shareholders will effectively have their share holding halved.

We, as fans, often have a gripe about how the club is run .. and that the shareholders should be putting more money into the club. This looks like a way for ordinary supporters to actually do what we always shout about, and effectively have "shareholders" putting their own money into the club.



So for that reason .. I'm in. :wink:

An HSL vote would be in HSL not in Hibs.

Weststandwanab
14-01-2015, 09:48 PM
I think, personally I will buy shares for myself and own them, rather than pay into this HSL Scheme. Not anti the scheme if others opt for this, just not for me.

Me too I think.


Well I'm definately up for this - skint but I always am anyway and knowing that I'll be helping make my Football club (hopefully) a bit more successfull - and as a result will, at least symbolically, own a wee bit of it - well that's priceless isn't it?!?

Every Hibs fan should be up for this IMO.

BTW - does anyone know wtf an IFA is when it's at home - Italian Football Association is the best I could come up with.

Independent Financial Advisor.


I own 1000s of shares and have never spoke to IFA in my life and never will.

That is the spirit me 2.


An HSL vote would be in HSL not in Hibs.

Precisely.

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 09:57 PM
You used to be able to but shares from Hibs at 50p per share, with a minimum purchase of 100 shares. I don't think it was ever used as a serious share purchase, and more of a novelty/gift item. It had to be done through the club though, as I don't think shares could be purchased on the open market. I suspect that this option is no longer available due to the current share issue.

My understanding, which could be totally wrong, is that current shareholders will be (have to be?) given the option to purchase additional shares in the new share issue. I'm not sure if non-shareholders can, or how easy it would be if they could, so the HSL seems like an easier way to be part of a supporter share purchase.

The way I see it, and again could be wrong, is that buying into the HSL route will give you 1 vote regardless of how many shares you have. Purchasing direct only gives you a percentage based on your overall share holding in comparison to the number of shares issued ie £225 (5,000 shares) equals one vote in HSL, or 0.004% if purchased direct from the club. To that end, the HSL route seems to provide you with a stronger voice than purchasing direct.

At the end of the day, IMO, supporters purchasing shares do so out of a sense of "belonging" to the club .. not because it's any sort of sound investment. This share issue seems to be a way of providing further working capital for the club, and providing a route for ordinary fans to provide the funds for that working capital, and providing fans that do invest to have a say (however small that might be) in how the club is run.

As far as I can see, Sir Tom is the one taking a hit on this by diluting his share holding. If there is a full take up of the share issue then all existing shareholders will effectively have their share holding halved.

We, as fans, often have a gripe about how the club is run .. and that the shareholders should be putting more money into the club. This looks like a way for ordinary supporters to actually do what we always shout about, and effectively have "shareholders" putting their own money into the club.



So for that reason .. I'm in. :wink:

See post #65

Non share holders will be sent the same 'information pack' shortly I believe. Which will give the same offer as share holders I think.

StevieC
14-01-2015, 10:19 PM
An HSL vote would be in HSL not in Hibs.

Yes, I understand that (maybe I never made that clear above?). My point being that your (collective) vote with HSL could be 5 times stronger than a vote as an actual shareholder.*


*based on the minimum entry level, and a number of supporters paying more than minimum

Andy74
14-01-2015, 10:27 PM
Yes, I understand that (maybe I never made that clear above?). My point being that your (collective) vote with HSL could be 5 times stronger than a vote as an actual shareholder.*


*based on the minimum entry level, and a number of supporters paying more than minimum

You'll need to explain that to me.

You'd get one presumably non binding vote which would help dictate the vote that HSL have in Hibs. You'd need to know the percentage of the club that HSL owned at the time, the number of participants, the amount of shares you woukd have bought direct, how many others have bought shares and how many to know the shares in issue etc etc.

I don't think its that possible to make that sort of statement?

StevieC
14-01-2015, 10:31 PM
I am led to believe the Hibs will be contacting people who are not shareholders letting them know the procedure to follow to receive the same information pack.

Seems strange to have the "do not disclose" caveat attached to the share issue if everyone is able to get the same information. I'm assuming there must be some sort of legal timescale where shareholders have to receive the information before it's allowed to go public?

offshorehibby
14-01-2015, 10:37 PM
Seems strange to have the "do not disclose" caveat attached to the share issue if everyone is able to get the same information. I'm assuming there must be some sort of legal timescale where shareholders have to receive the information before it's allowed to go public?

I think it's just the way it's done. Hopefully i'm right and all Hibs supporters get the chance to own shares. I also think HSL is a good idea. I will probably invest through both options.

StevieC
14-01-2015, 10:51 PM
You'll need to explain that to me.

I was worried you were going to ask that :greengrin

It is all speculation of course, and there's no way that it could be deemed to be accurate without proper figures (which of course wouldn't be available until after the share issue was completed).

But .. if .. the share issue sold out .. and .. a substantial amount of supporters payed much more than the minimum .. then .. an HSL vote could potentially be more powerful than a shareholder vote (based on minimum entry level purchase).

If, for example, HSL had 5,000 members .. then your single vote would be worth 0.02% of the overall shareholding, and you would only need to convince 2,500 of your fellow members in order to get a motion carried.
If you had an "entry level" shareholding directly with the club then your shareholding would be 0.004% of the overall shareholding .. and you would never be able to get a majority to carry a motion without the support of the HSL (of which you wouldn't be a member).

If HSL get their majority shareholding they are hoping for then only they, with the support of their members, could carry a majority.

So in summary ..
Shares in club = nice certificate but no power
Membership of HSL = no certificate but potentially power to effect change

I hope I've got that right .. :confused:

Mikey
14-01-2015, 11:11 PM
The basics, all in one place.....

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297222-Hibernian-FC-Share-Issue-The-Basics

Glorious St Pat
14-01-2015, 11:28 PM
The basics, all in one place.....

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297222-Hibernian-FC-Share-Issue-The-Basics

Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

matty_f
14-01-2015, 11:33 PM
Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

Why would they bother with the share issue in the first place? This is costing STF money and is specifically designed to reduce his holding in the company.


Why on earth would he then spend money to file his existing shareholding to buy shares that he already has?

Eyrie
14-01-2015, 11:37 PM
I had to buy Mrs OS a ticket for a game a couple of seasons back to get her on the data base, not sure if things have changed regarding that.

Cheers - I'll need to buy online for the Raith game then.

After that, it'll be a case of finding out how the IFA route works before I speak to anyone.

IainA
14-01-2015, 11:44 PM
Erm, I am an IFA (Independent Financial Adviser)
Don't like the slating (a bit)here :-)

Anyway, you don't really buy shares from an IFA (usually) - you can buy them via Stockbroker or (God forbid) from a bank.
Just saying.

The HSL route gives supporters a unified voice (collective vote) and has far less regulation (fees and charge involved)

GGTTH

Glorious St Pat
14-01-2015, 11:57 PM
Why would they bother with the share issue in the first place? This is costing STF money and is specifically designed to reduce his holding in the company.


Why on earth would he then spend money to file his existing shareholding to buy shares that he already has?

You tell me?

Answer the question - are there any safeguards to prevent Petrie & co still retaining a majority shareholding?

Andy74
14-01-2015, 11:59 PM
You tell me?

Answer the question - are there any safeguards to prevent Petrie & co still retaining a majority shareholding?

Yes there are maximum purchases.

Glorious St Pat
15-01-2015, 12:06 AM
Yes there are maximum purchases.

I know that, but what assurances are in place to prevent Petrie or Farmer associates or family members from buying additional shares in their respective names and, in turn, securing a majority shareholding?

Glorious St Pat
15-01-2015, 12:07 AM
Erm, I am an IFA (Independent Financial Adviser)
Don't like the slating (a bit)here :-)

Anyway, you don't really buy shares from an IFA (usually) - you can buy them via Stockbroker or (God forbid) from a bank.
Just saying.

The HSL route gives supporters a unified voice (collective vote) and has far less regulation (fees and charge involved)

GGTTH

Through going a IFA route as suggested by the club, are there fees involved and why?

Andy74
15-01-2015, 12:34 AM
I know that, but what assurances are in place to prevent Petrie or Farmer associates or family members from buying additional shares in their respective names and, in turn, securing a majority shareholding?

They have one now. What's the point? Write off £4.5m and then scrabble around trying to buy shares in different family names. Brilliant idea.

matty_f
15-01-2015, 12:39 AM
They have one now. What's the point? Write off £4.5m and then scrabble around trying to buy shares in different family names. Brilliant idea.

But what's to stop them, other than the fact that if they did it they would be imbeciles?

If STF, for a laugh, wanted to reduce his shareholding by increasing his shareholding for a bit of banter and that, what's to stop him?

Also, what safeguards are in place to stop Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire from buying tickets for the game on Saturday to get on the database, so that they can buy loads of shares and turn Easter Road into the third Death Star?

barcahibs
15-01-2015, 01:10 AM
I know that, but what assurances are in place to prevent Petrie or Farmer associates or family members from buying additional shares in their respective names and, in turn, securing a majority shareholding?

What would be the point, they've already got a majority shareholding. It'd be like me hitting the "buy it now" button on my own eBay auction surely?

In any case I don't think they could, the maximum purchase for any individual applicant is 5% of the shares

Its also in the terms and conditions of share application that an applicant "warrants that they are not acting in concert with other parties" (Page 12 section 16 of the the memorandum)

So Sir Tom (were he so inclined) can only buy 5% of the shares and can't cooperate with anyone else to hoover up a larger percentage.

I dont pretend to even begin to understand the murky world of finance - but it would seem a strange rule for Sir Tom to have inserted if he intended using this scheme to sneakily sell himself loads of shares in order to become the majority shareholder of a club he's already majority shareholder of?

Sean1875
15-01-2015, 04:00 AM
I'm out living in Australia for the next 10 monthsish and would like to buy shares direct but don't really have the option of going through an IFA, will I just have to go through HSL instead or will there be a way for me to get shares direct?

Hamish
15-01-2015, 05:47 AM
Thanks to Mikey for the basics thread which answered some questions I had.

Mikey
15-01-2015, 08:12 AM
Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

Are these the same people who told you that STF/RP were going to sell off the stadium and the training centre and do a runner?

BSEJVT
15-01-2015, 08:25 AM
Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

Its a good idea to engage your brain before opening your mouth

Why the Christ would anyone dilute their shareholding only to buy it back ( whether through a nominee or direct) to put themselves in the same position ( bit with less of the shares and consequently a smaller share of the assets) as they were before.

Oh and by the way write of an additional £5m in the process.

At least Area 55 and Roswell had some glimmer of foundation, the conspiracy theories brought up by the anti Framer / Petrie brigade make them look like gibbering imbeciles.

BSEJVT
15-01-2015, 08:40 AM
In the interests of balance though:greengrin

IMO the share issue is just that, it gives the fans the chance to own some of the club and have a voice, nothing else.

The £2.5m raised will simply provide a working capital facility and reserves for the club.

Other than shedding the repayment and interest costs to the Bank, which are reasonably significant, I wouldn't look for the paying budget to be changed significantly.

Whether we like it or not the club has to balance the books, particularly since once we exhaust that £2.5m there is no overdraft facility available to cover losses

CropleyWasGod
15-01-2015, 08:45 AM
I know that, but what assurances are in place to prevent Petrie or Farmer associates or family members from buying additional shares in their respective names and, in turn, securing a majority shareholding?
Why would they do that?

Edit. ....just noticed it's been asked already. A few times. :)

Mikey
15-01-2015, 08:45 AM
In the interests of balance though:greengrin

IMO the share issue is just that, it gives the fans the chance to own some of the club and have a voice, nothing else.

The £2.5m raised will simply provide a working capital facility and reserves for the club.

Other than shedding the repayment and interest costs to the Bank, which are reasonably significant, I wouldn't look for the paying budget to be changed significantly.

Whether we like it or not the club has to balance the books, particularly since once we exhaust that £2.5m there is no overdraft facility available to cover losses


Here's the answer given in the Q&A.....


Q - What exactly will all monies raised be used for? Playing staff, equipment, wages, etc?

A – It would be used in the running of the football department, so that’s wages, equipment, players, etc.

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296496-Q-amp-A-With-Leeann-Dempster-re-Debt-Reduction-and-Share-Offer

Caversham Green
15-01-2015, 09:59 AM
Why would they do that?

Edit. ....just noticed it's been asked already. A few times. :)

And the answer is:


You tell me?



:rolleyes:

Maybe a more pertinent question would be: 'What would be wrong with them buying up some of the shares and maintaining control?'

They already have 98% of the votes and any shares bought by 'outsiders' reduces that voting power so all they would be doing is putting more money into the club - on top of the £4.5m they've just handed over.

The main safeguard (if such a thing was needed) is that they'd be absolutely barking mad to do things that way.

CropleyWasGod
15-01-2015, 10:17 AM
And the answer is:



:rolleyes:

Maybe a more pertinent question would be: 'What would be wrong with them buying up some of the shares and maintaining control?'

They already have 98% of the votes and any shares bought by 'outsiders' reduces that voting power so all they would be doing is putting more money into the club - on top of the £4.5m they've just handed over.

The main safeguard (if such a thing was needed) is that they'd be absolutely barking mad to do things that way.

It strikes me that there is a scenario whereby "they" (STF et al) could still have control after the share issue. For example, if the issue isn't fully subscribed, depending on the uptake.

Does that make sense?

Caversham Green
15-01-2015, 10:34 AM
It strikes me that there is a scenario whereby "they" (STF et al) could still have control after the share issue. For example, if the issue isn't fully subscribed, depending on the uptake.

Does that make sense?

I think that's exactly what will happen. I doubt whether the full issue will be taken up - HoMFC couldn't sell out a smaller amount when their very existence depended on it, and there are some relevant concerns being raised about the way it's all being done.

I feel we're guilty of over-thinking the whole control thing in any case. There are going to be very few voting issues where the Farmer/Petrie syndicate will be in direct conflict with the totality of the fans. Petrie Out might have been one, but I very much doubt if 51% fan ownership would have been enough to win that vote in any case. This is really all about getting a decent sum of money into the club to 'further its sporting ambitions' while at the same time giving the fans a significant (but not over-riding) voice in what those ambitions should be.

Swansea City is widely promoted as a fan-owned club but in truth the fans only own 20% - through a similar (but not identical) vehicle to HSL.

BSEJVT
15-01-2015, 10:37 AM
It strikes me that there is a scenario whereby "they" (STF et al) could still have control after the share issue. For example, if the issue isn't fully subscribed, depending on the uptake.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense

It's also more than likely that even if the offer was fully subscribed that some of the subscribers would vote with them if push came to shove as they preferred their proposals to any counter proposal.

Whilst we can argue till the cows come home about their stewardship of the club I am 100% confident they would not deliberately do the club a bad turn.

Caversham Green
15-01-2015, 10:43 AM
Perfect sense

It's also more than likely that even if the offer was fully subscribed that some of the subscribers would vote with them if push came to shove as they preferred their proposals to any counter proposal.

Whilst we can argue till the cows come home about their stewardship of the club I am 100% confident they would not deliberately do the club a bad turn.

And that's why all the conspiracy theories rip my knitting (to borrow CWG's phrase). They have absolutely nothing to gain, and more to lose than most, by damaging the club. The sooner people realise that the sooner we can start to get the club back where it should be.

hibbymac
15-01-2015, 11:15 AM
Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

:confused: Can you clarify what your suspicions are and what are the concerns that are leading them to call "the whole share issue a con" ?

PeeKay
15-01-2015, 11:55 AM
The basics, all in one place.....

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297222-Hibernian-FC-Share-Issue-The-Basics

Thanks for that. A very useful Fool's Guide, but this fool is still a bit confused. Two questions
1. "The minimum monthly contribution is £18.75 (£225 per year)." Does that mean we are expected to make a contribution of £225 every year?
2. Could someone choose to invest more than £255, and if £225 buys one vote in HSL would £450 buy two votes?

Mikey
15-01-2015, 12:06 PM
Thanks for that. A very useful Fool's Guide, but this fool is still a bit confused. Two questions
1. "The minimum monthly contribution is £18.75 (£225 per year)." Does that mean we are expected to make a contribution of £225 every year?
2. Could someone choose to invest more than £255, and if £225 buys one vote in HSL would £450 buy two votes?

1. - I guess so, until you decide to stop!
2. - The only way to get 2 votes in HSL would be to set up 2 separate payments for 2 different people. I would think you would have to have several hundred to be in a position to be able to manipulate the vote though!

w pilton hibby
15-01-2015, 12:10 PM
Don't know if it has been raised by anyone on the thread but I have my suspicions about the share issue and I would like some clarity on a very important point. The press release doesn't make it clear and I hope that certain loopholes in the issue are closed off. Perhaps a shareholder could raise the important point at the AGM but:

What is there in place to prevent Farmer and Petrie associates buying additional shares from the issue to prevent the cohort have a majority shareholding under an alias ie family member?

Spoke to both a shareholder and a leading light of HoH and both raised the same concerns calling the whole share issue a "con".

Could someone clarify if there are any safeguards in place to prevent such a scenario happening and there will be a genuine 51/49 split from the current status quo in place?

From the Daily Record

Rebel Hibs fans blast supporters buyout bid at Easter Road and question its independence from club board


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rebel-hibs-fans-blast-supporters-4981467

Bad Martini
15-01-2015, 12:14 PM
Also, what safeguards are in place to stop Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire from buying tickets for the game on Saturday to get on the database, so that they can buy loads of shares and turn Easter Road into the third Death Star?

Luke Skywalker?? :greengrin

In all seriousness, I agree. WTAF would Farmer want to reduce his share holding, to increase it on the fly? He's an old man with more important things on his mind than pissing about in some x-files-esque Easter Road cospiracy.

Bollocks :thumbsup:

bigwheel
15-01-2015, 12:37 PM
From the Daily Record

Rebel Hibs fans blast supporters buyout bid at Easter Road and question its independence from club board


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rebel-hibs-fans-blast-supporters-4981467


HOH will be working away hard to find things wrong with this proposal. As if they agree with this proposal, it completely disempowers them. Actually though, if they genuinely had the club's interest at heart, they would work through this constructively and make suggestions for areas of improvement. The reality is seen on their twitter timeline, and (i'm sure) their next "statement". Their timeline is full of a few of the same faces griping about the "flat earthers" a disrespectful term used to slight those who don't share their views, and to suggest many fans are more interested in becoming "a blazer" There's very few of those, and I would suggest most , if not all, are in it for the right intent...and the usual moans about STF etc...

It really is a juvenile line of content, from a group that are meant to be the "voice of truth". To me that have absolutely no credibility. The "mis-truths" have been shown as wrong and shallow, and they have not yet had the integrity to admit they were wrong. It's a genuine shame. I'd love to see a radical voice emerge that had real social strength and integrity behind it. It would be a great challenging group for the formal board. This group have come nowhere near this benchmark.

jacomo
15-01-2015, 12:47 PM
From the Daily Record

Rebel Hibs fans blast supporters buyout bid at Easter Road and question its independence from club board


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rebel-hibs-fans-blast-supporters-4981467

This is a bit silly.

No one has claimed this is an independent initiative - the owner is giving away 51% of the company by diluting his own share holding and is doing so in a controlled way. I think it's unrealistic to think this will bring further changes in the way the company is run, beyond the two elected members of the Board. But it does introduce safeguards for the stadium by making it very difficult for an individual to take control of the company and then sell the assets.

Whether or not this model - with its similarities to the Well Society - is the right one is open for debate.

CropleyWasGod
15-01-2015, 01:10 PM
HOH will be working away hard to find things wrong with this proposal. As if they agree with this proposal, it completely disempowers them. Actually though, if they genuinely had the club's interest at heart, they would work through this constructively and make suggestions for areas of improvement. The reality is seen on their twitter timeline, and (i'm sure) their next "statement". Their timeline is full of a few of the same faces griping about the "flat earthers" a disrespectful term used to slight those who don't share their views, and to suggest many fans are more interested in becoming "a baller". There's very few of those, and I would suggest most , if not all, are in it for the right intent...and the usual moans about STF etc...

It really is a juvenile line of content, from a group that are meant to be the "voice of truth". To me that have absolutely no credibility. The "mis-truths" have been shown as wrong and shallow, and they have not yet had the integrity to admit they were wrong. It's a genuine shame. I'd love to see a radical voice emerge that had real social strength and integrity behind it. It would be a great challenging group for the formal board. This group have come nowhere near this benchmark.

I'm blocked from their Twitter account. Probably asked too many sensible questions, so I must be an agent.

I am intrigued that Charlie Reid and Pat Stanton are both involved in the new company. Does that mean that they are out of the "Petrie Out" and Buy Hibs groups respectively?

blackpoolhibs
15-01-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm blocked from their Twitter account. Probably asked too many sensible questions, so I must be an agent.

I am intrigued that Charlie Reid and Pat Stanton are both involved in the new company. Does that mean that they are out of the "Petrie Out" and Buy Hibs groups respectively?

Pat Stanton really needs to take a back seat for a while in my opinion, he's hanging his hat on every scheme thats coming up.

Now this one does seem the right one, but the way he's been putting his name behind every one of those half cocked hair brained ideas does him no favours at all.

The Hibee Harp
15-01-2015, 01:58 PM
Pat Stanton really needs to take a back seat for a while in my opinion, he's hanging his hat on every scheme thats coming up.

Now this one does seem the right one, but the way he's been putting his name behind every one of those half cocked hair brained ideas does him no favours at all.

:agree::top marks

marinello59
15-01-2015, 02:24 PM
From the Daily Record

Rebel Hibs fans blast supporters buyout bid at Easter Road and question its independence from club board


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rebel-hibs-fans-blast-supporters-4981467

I like how the Record describes them as a rump of fans. That means arse doesn't it?:greengrin

Glorious St Pat
15-01-2015, 02:36 PM
Its a good idea to engage your brain before opening your mouth

Why the Christ would anyone dilute their shareholding only to buy it back ( whether through a nominee or direct) to put themselves in the same position ( bit with less of the shares and consequently a smaller share of the assets) as they were before.

Oh and by the way write of an additional £5m in the process.

At least Area 55 and Roswell had some glimmer of foundation, the conspiracy theories brought up by the anti Framer / Petrie brigade make them look like gibbering imbeciles.

No need for personal abuse. I am only echoing what others - one being a well respected businessman and Hibs shareholder - have concerns about.

Having seen most of the T&C's now I am suitably assured that such loopholes have been closed off.

Glorious St Pat
15-01-2015, 02:38 PM
:confused: Can you clarify what your suspicions are and what are the concerns that are leading them to call "the whole share issue a con" ?

My original concerns where in my 2nd paragraph. However, feel better assured now that such prospects can't or shouldn't happen after seeing the T&Cs.

BSEJVT
15-01-2015, 04:37 PM
No need for personal abuse. I am only echoing what others - one being a well respected businessman and Hibs shareholder - have concerns about.

Having seen most of the T&C's now I am suitably assured that such loopholes have been closed off.

My point stands

You were quite happy to come on here and cast aspirations about something you couldn't be bothered to take the time to read.

You preferred to rely on tittle tattle from others who also either didn't understand, couldn't be bothered to read or have their own agendas for making mischief. In my opinion anyone that does that is a fool because it makes them look stupid peddling someone else's agenda when it is proved to be completely without foundation.

Hibs are far from where we would all like them to be, but the ordinary supporter who isn't sufficiently interested to investigate on their own behalf reads that type of guff, thinks its worse than it is, repeats it and the myth becomes self perpetuating.

There are a large bunch of **** stirrers out there and rather than blindly following their lead it would do a hell of a lot of folk a hell of a lot of good to look into matters and make their own mind up rather than jumping on bandwagons.

You don't need a degree in high finance to think anything through.

A simple what is he gaining, what is he losing exercise would have told you that the assertion you made was idiotic.

There is no chance of our returning Hibs to where we all think they should be if we cant get past this pointless infighting.

People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is and whose fault it is, rather than take steps to improve things.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem

IMHO there are still far far far too many Hibs "supporters" part of the problem.

That doesn't mean everything is rosy, miles from it, but anyone who thinks that continuously undermining the club or the team or the board is helping matters needs to question their motivations.

matty_f
15-01-2015, 04:39 PM
My point stands

You were quite happy to come on here and cast aspirations about something you couldn't be bothered to take the time to read.

You preferred to rely on tittle tattle from others who also either didn't understand, couldn't be bothered to read or have their own agendas for making mischief. In my opinion anyone that does that is a fool because it makes them look stupid peddling someone else's agenda when it is proved to be completely without foundation.

Hibs are far from where we would all like them to be, but the ordinary supporter who isn't sufficiently interested to investigate on their own behalf reads that type of guff, thinks its worse than it is, repeats it and the myth becomes self perpetuating.

There are a large bunch of **** stirrers out there and rather than blindly following their lead it would do a hell of a lot of folk a hell of a lot of good to look into matters and make their own mind up rather than jumping on bandwagons.

You don't need a degree in high finance to think anything through.

A simple what is he gaining, what is he losing exercise would have told you that the assertion you made was idiotic.

There is no chance of our returning Hibs to where we all think they should be if we cant get past this pointless infighting.

People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem

IMHO there are still far far far to many Hibs "supporters" part of the problem.

That doesn't mean everything is rosy, miles from it, but anyone who thinks that continuously undermining the club or the team or the board is helping matters needs to question their motivations.

Epic, epic post. Agree with every word of it!

JimBHibees
15-01-2015, 05:07 PM
My point stands

You were quite happy to come on here and cast aspirations about something you couldn't be bothered to take the time to read.

You preferred to rely on tittle tattle from others who also either didn't understand, couldn't be bothered to read or have their own agendas for making mischief. In my opinion anyone that does that is a fool because it makes them look stupid peddling someone else's agenda when it is proved to be completely without foundation.

Hibs are far from where we would all like them to be, but the ordinary supporter who isn't sufficiently interested to investigate on their own behalf reads that type of guff, thinks its worse than it is, repeats it and the myth becomes self perpetuating.

There are a large bunch of **** stirrers out there and rather than blindly following their lead it would do a hell of a lot of folk a hell of a lot of good to look into matters and make their own mind up rather than jumping on bandwagons.

You don't need a degree in high finance to think anything through.

A simple what is he gaining, what is he losing exercise would have told you that the assertion you made was idiotic.

There is no chance of our returning Hibs to where we all think they should be if we cant get past this pointless infighting.

People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is and whose fault it is, rather than take steps to improve things.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem

IMHO there are still far far far to many Hibs "supporters" part of the problem.

That doesn't mean everything is rosy, miles from it, but anyone who thinks that continuously undermining the club or the team or the board is helping matters needs to question their motivations.

Cracking post IMO.

Eaststand
15-01-2015, 05:43 PM
I'm already a shareholder from the 80's share issue but just like lots of others, i'll be buying more shares so that we can move toward owning our own club.

I realise that a shareholder should be aged 18+ to own shares but what I'd like to do is buy some shares as a wee gift to my 2 grand-daughters. I'd imagine there are quite a few of us wanting to do likewise, so my question is, can anyone suggest a way to allow that ?

Any feedback would be appreciated, and please PM me if its too touchy to be replied to on here 

GGTTH

Peevemor
15-01-2015, 05:50 PM
My point stands

You were quite happy to come on here and cast aspirations about something you couldn't be bothered to take the time to read.

You preferred to rely on tittle tattle from others who also either didn't understand, couldn't be bothered to read or have their own agendas for making mischief. In my opinion anyone that does that is a fool because it makes them look stupid peddling someone else's agenda when it is proved to be completely without foundation.

Hibs are far from where we would all like them to be, but the ordinary supporter who isn't sufficiently interested to investigate on their own behalf reads that type of guff, thinks its worse than it is, repeats it and the myth becomes self perpetuating.

There are a large bunch of **** stirrers out there and rather than blindly following their lead it would do a hell of a lot of folk a hell of a lot of good to look into matters and make their own mind up rather than jumping on bandwagons.

You don't need a degree in high finance to think anything through.

A simple what is he gaining, what is he losing exercise would have told you that the assertion you made was idiotic.

There is no chance of our returning Hibs to where we all think they should be if we cant get past this pointless infighting.

People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is and whose fault it is, rather than take steps to improve things.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem

IMHO there are still far far far too many Hibs "supporters" part of the problem.

That doesn't mean everything is rosy, miles from it, but anyone who thinks that continuously undermining the club or the team or the board is helping matters needs to question their motivations.

Well said.

Mikey
15-01-2015, 06:02 PM
I'm already a shareholder from the 80's share issue but just like lots of others, i'll be buying more shares so that we can move toward owning our own club.

I realise that a shareholder should be aged 18+ to own shares but what I'd like to do is buy some shares as a wee gift to my 2 grand-daughters. I'd imagine there are quite a few of us wanting to do likewise, so my question is, can anyone suggest a way to allow that ?

Any feedback would be appreciated, and please PM me if its too touchy to be replied to on here 

GGTTH

If you can make more then one purchase it should be easy enough, although they would have to be in your name, perhaps with their initials tagged on the end so you can differentiate them. If you're limited to one purchase you could transfer their shares out after 6 months and again have them registered in your name with their initials.

offshorehibby
15-01-2015, 06:43 PM
My point stands

You were quite happy to come on here and cast aspirations about something you couldn't be bothered to take the time to read.

You preferred to rely on tittle tattle from others who also either didn't understand, couldn't be bothered to read or have their own agendas for making mischief. In my opinion anyone that does that is a fool because it makes them look stupid peddling someone else's agenda when it is proved to be completely without foundation.

Hibs are far from where we would all like them to be, but the ordinary supporter who isn't sufficiently interested to investigate on their own behalf reads that type of guff, thinks its worse than it is, repeats it and the myth becomes self perpetuating.

There are a large bunch of **** stirrers out there and rather than blindly following their lead it would do a hell of a lot of folk a hell of a lot of good to look into matters and make their own mind up rather than jumping on bandwagons.

You don't need a degree in high finance to think anything through.

A simple what is he gaining, what is he losing exercise would have told you that the assertion you made was idiotic.

There is no chance of our returning Hibs to where we all think they should be if we cant get past this pointless infighting.

People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is and whose fault it is, rather than take steps to improve things.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem

IMHO there are still far far far too many Hibs "supporters" part of the problem.

That doesn't mean everything is rosy, miles from it, but anyone who thinks that continuously undermining the club or the team or the board is helping matters needs to question their motivations.

Well said

Eaststand
15-01-2015, 06:49 PM
If you can make more then one purchase it should be easy enough, although they would have to be in your name, perhaps with their initials tagged on the end so you can differentiate them. If you're limited to one purchase you could transfer their shares out after 6 months and again have them registered in your name with their initials.

Cheers for that Mikey, I was thinking along those lines and although it's pretty certain that any 'gifted' share's would never be sold on by the bairns, it's just a nice wee way to show the young one's in the family that they were part of the building blocks for our clubs future GGTTH

ancient hibee
15-01-2015, 07:51 PM
Think I'll try and buy shares in my own name rather than through the new company.I could admit that this is because I've always wanted to wear a blazer with gold buttons and that buying into a very minor Edinburgh company could set me on my way to world domination but the truth is that I've always fancied having a Hibs share certificate.Incidentally presumably if the new company manages to get up to around 25% of the Hibs equity it will be entitled to get a seat on the board.

bighairyfaeleith
15-01-2015, 08:41 PM
Think I'll try and buy shares in my own name rather than through the new company.I could admit that this is because I've always wanted to wear a blazer with gold buttons and that buying into a very minor Edinburgh company could set me on my way to world domination but the truth is that I've always fancied having a Hibs share certificate.Incidentally presumably if the new company manages to get up to around 25% of the Hibs equity it will be entitled to get a seat on the board.

There is something quite appealing about having a certificate I must admit, and at some point I think I will buy one my first action will be to subscribe to the hibernian supporters thing as I think that needs to have strong voice and I want to be part of that. Not that I will speak much but it I want the opportunity to be able to.

The thing is, these shares are going to be available for years. So whenever you can afford it and are minded to you can stick some more in.

CB_NO3
16-01-2015, 09:20 AM
Can someone explain if I buy shares through an IFA how much commision they would roughly charge for the £225 worth of shares? Second question is, if you do it this way and not through the HSL does the cash still go to the sporting ambition fund?

CropleyWasGod
16-01-2015, 09:23 AM
Can someone explain if I buy shares through an IFA how much commision they would roughly charge for the £225 worth of shares? Second question is, if you do it this way and not through the HSL does the cash still go to the sporting ambition fund?

First off, I'm sure IFA'S charge fees now. Commissions are old school. Pathead will be along in a minute, though, to put me right.

Second question is easy. Yes.

Danderhall Hibs
16-01-2015, 09:52 AM
First off, I'm sure IFA'S charge fees now. Commissions are old school. Pathead will be along in a minute, though, to put me right.

Second question is easy. Yes.

Is that for all products or just pensions? Is it not normally a stockbroker for shares?

matty_f
16-01-2015, 10:11 AM
Can you buy through a share dealing service like HSBC's InvestDirect?

CropleyWasGod
16-01-2015, 10:12 AM
Can you buy through a share dealing service like HSBC's InvestDirect?

I'd doubt it, as these shares aren't publicly traded.

Andy74
16-01-2015, 10:20 AM
Can someone explain if I buy shares through an IFA how much commision they would roughly charge for the £225 worth of shares? Second question is, if you do it this way and not through the HSL does the cash still go to the sporting ambition fund?

The problem is they can't charge commission now so charge a fee just to see you/talk to you. That could be not far off what you want to pay for the shares so a total non starter unless you know an IFA!

Anyway, Hibs should really find another option. Sending people to an IFA I think is just trying to make it easier for them to direct people to HSL.

jacomo
16-01-2015, 11:21 AM
The problem is they can't charge commission now so charge a fee just to see you/talk to you. That could be not far off what you want to pay for the shares so a total non starter unless you know an IFA!

Anyway, Hibs should really find another option. Sending people to an IFA I think is just trying to make it easier for them to direct people to HSL.

Not a shareholder myself, but I'm sure it used to be the case that you could just write to the club expressing an interest, and then Hibs could match you with someone who wanted to sell.

I understand the club has to be very careful now with these new regulations, but IFAs exist to help you make good financial investment decisions. As has been said elsewhere, you should probably see this as more of an emotional decision.

CropleyWasGod
16-01-2015, 11:22 AM
Not a shareholder myself, but I'm sure it used to be the case that you could just write to the club expressing an interest, and then Hibs could match you with someone who wanted to sell.

I understand the club has to be very careful now with these new regulations, but IFAs exist to help you make good financial investment decisions. As has been said elsewhere, you should probably see this as more of an emotional decision.

In that situation, the club wouldn't get any money. The seller would.

jacomo
16-01-2015, 12:06 PM
In that situation, the club wouldn't get any money. The seller would.

Yes, of course.

From reading this thread, though, it seems that the creation of HSL has inadvertently created renewed interest for fans to become individual share holders as well. That is still the only route that guarantees an invite to the AGM!

Andy74
16-01-2015, 01:12 PM
Yes, of course.

From reading this thread, though, it seems that the creation of HSL has inadvertently created renewed interest for fans to become individual share holders as well. That is still the only route that guarantees an invite to the AGM!

The HSL launch hasn't created the interest. The Hibs announcement that they were going to make new shares available for Hibs fans to purchase with the money going to the club, not other owners, was what created that interest.

Initial comment was that HSL was just a way to do it if you didn't have the cash to buy up front. It seems that the average fan won't be able to buys shares in the club after all.

RSS Bot
16-01-2015, 05:10 PM
More... (http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/5114)

The past week has seen a lot of coverage of the Board’s plans to widen ownership by making it possible for supporters to own up to 51% of the shareholding in the Club – a controlling interest.

The intention is to create new shares, diluting current shareholders. Through the sale of these new shares the Club aims to raise £2.5 million. All of the money will go to support the football ambitions of the Club, and not to any existing shareholder – a key fact which makes the offer different from any other in Scottish football.

Supporters can gain a greater voice in their Club, and by doing so all of the money they commit will help fund the Club’s push to succeed on the pitch. Meantime the Board’s plan sees Easter Road Stadium and Hibernian Training Centre secure within the Club’s ownership.
If fully subscribed, new supporter shareholdings will account for 50% of the enlarged share capital while existing supporter shareholders already own shares which make up 1% of the enlarged shareholding, giving the total of 51% supporter ownership of the Club and all of its assets.

The plan has been developed over a number of months – but was made more difficult by legislative changes which came into force last autumn. These changes were designed to provide further protection to investors in shares which are not “readily realisable”. An unforeseen consequence is that they create a barrier for most football clubs who want to encourage supporter ownership. The creation of a public share offer and prospectus would be prohibitive and disproportionate to the money raised.

The Club has put forward three ways in which supporters can get involved from February 2nd when shares will be made available:

Option 1 – existing shareholders (who were on the share register as at 5pm on January 9th) can apply direct to the Club using the application form attached to the Information Memorandum enclosed with the pack of information sent to them on January 12th for the forthcoming AGM
Option 2 – the 20,000 adult supporters who are on the Club database because they have bought tickets for matches but who are not existing shareholders can apply to the Club to receive an Information Memorandum and application form by completing and returning the form on the back of the letter they will receive over the weekend. By returning the form countersigned by an IFA, they will be eligible to apply for shares. Any supporter who does not receive a letter from the Club by January 23rd can email the Club on shares@hibernianfc.co.uk to request a letter and request form.

Supporters can learn more about consulting IFAs via any of the following links;

http://www.vouchedfor.co.uk/financial-advisor-ifa/Edinburgh?gclid=CNaC-vnklcMCFaHHtAod9mEA0Q

https://www.unbiased.co.uk/advisers/financial-adviser/scotland/edinburgh

http://financial-advisor.independent.co.uk/search-for-ifa-partners/Edinburgh?gclid=CMympIvllcMCFbPItAodfTsAPg

http://www.local-financial-advisor.co.uk/

Option 3 – anyone who wishes to donate to broadening supporter ownership through a new vehicle established to buy and hold shares on behalf of supporters, rather than buying shares directly can find out more at www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk.


Existing shareholders: The Club has 1700 shareholders, and it is open to them to buy more shares. The Club issued an Information Memorandum to existing shareholders on January 12th explaining how they could subscribe for shares as of February 2nd. This process is not governed by the regulations which apply to non-shareholders.

Supporters on the Club database who wish to buy and own shares direct: Supporters on the Club’s database were written to by Chairman Rod Petrie today (January 15th). The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 and related legislation provide protection for people buying shares in the Club which fall into the category of “non-readily realisable securities”. People in this group who wish to buy shares directly, and so receive a Hibernian FC share certificate, need to go through a process designed to comply with the legislation. That process – involving consulting an Independent Financial Adviser – is detailed in the letter they received. There is a form printed on the back of the letter which should be countersigned by an IFA and returned to the Club in order to receive an Information Memorandum. An application for shares is attached to the Information Memorandum.

Supporters who wish to donate via a wider supporter ownership vehicle:

Hibernian Supporters Ltd was launched on January 14th, with a Board of seven directors chaired by Kenny MacAskill MSP. The Board also includes former Club captain Jackie Macnamara, Proclaimer Charlie Reid, and other founding directors including supporters Jim Adie and Gordon Smith along with former Club Director Stephen Dunn and Club Chief Executive Leeann Dempster. Hibernian Supporters Limited is a simple alternative to holding shares directly.

Hibernian Supporters Limited is a company limited by guarantee with the sole objective and aim of buying and holding shares in Hibernian FC for the benefit of supporters. Any person can sign up to donate (the minimum suggested donation is £225 per annum or £18.75 per month) to the company and this money will be used to acquire shares in Hibernian. Supporters who make contributions will not own shares directly but will own Hibernian Supporters Limited, which in turn will own the shares in the Club.
Every person who donates the minimum amount will become a member of Hibernian Supporters Limited and each member will have one vote on issues affecting that company, including the make-up of its Board. Hibernian Supporters Limited entered into an agreement with the Club that it will use all the money it receives to subscribe for shares and that the Club will make those shares available to Hibernian Supporters Limited.

Supporters who contribute through Hibernian Supporters Limited will not receive a share certificate, as they will not own shares in the Club themselves, but they will receive a certificate acknowledging the part they have played in securing supporter ownership of the Club.

blackpoolhibs
19-01-2015, 03:38 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202302835971085&set=gm.912991092046600&type=1&theater


:confused:

kano
19-01-2015, 03:49 PM
PLEASE SHARE
THIS IS NOT COMMUNITY OWNERSHIP. IT'S A SHAKE DOWN.
Hands On Hibs have today written to Hibernian owner Tom Farmer confirming our decision to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals published last week. HOH made this decision after considering independent financial advice and consulting our activists and supporters.
... NO TRANSPARENCY
Last Friday, as part of our consultation process, Hands On Hibs met with the board of Hibernian Supporters Limited. HSL is a body created by the football club Board to promote the Farmer/Petrie proposals. During the course of this meeting it was confirmed that no details of the £5million debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie) would be made available to the supporters. HOH reiterate our position that without total transparency no fans should donate to this scheme.
NOT AN INVESTMENT, JUST ANOTHER DONATION.
The board of HSL agreed with Hands On Hibs that the Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent a sound investment. In reality fans are being asked to donate money toward the club's running costs. While the club claims none of the money donated by fans will go to existing shareholders the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).
The argument that Hibs fans should donate money to this scheme just because we are Hibs fans is spurious. Manipulating the emotional ties supporters have with Hibernian Football Club is wrong. When at least some of that money is being used to pay a debt (the details of which are secret) to a multi millionaire it is immoral.
HIBS DESERVE BETTER
Presenting the Farmer/Petrie proposals as a take it or leave it proposition is a serious error on the part of the owner and the board. Hands On Hibs remain convinced the only way to achieve unity between the supporters and the club is for Tom Farmer to personally intervene in this change process. Without his engagement in this process it will fail.
The Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent community ownership or a realistic beginning in that journey. Hibernian Football Club is at a critical juncture. We reject the arguments of HSL that this might not be a good deal but it is the only deal available. Hands On Hibs will not accept a bad deal for Hibs supporters and this is a bad deal.
Hands On Hibs commend the Hibernian supporters already taking action against these proposals (see image below). HOH remain committed to working with other Hibs supporters to achieve the very best deal possible for Hibernian Football Club in the long term, the supporters and broader community.
‪#‎HandsOnHibs‬ (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/handsonhibs?source=feed_text&story_id=525154437626543)

See More (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hands-On-Hibs/463793980429256#):flag:

Juice-Terry
19-01-2015, 03:50 PM
From Hands on Hibs (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hands-On-Hibs/463793980429256?fref=ts):

PLEASE SHARE
THIS IS NOT COMMUNITY OWNERSHIP. IT'S A SHAKE DOWN.
Hands On Hibs have today written to Hibernian owner Tom Farmer confirming our decision to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals published last week. HOH made this decision after considering independent financial advice and consulting our activists and supporters.
NO TRANSPARENCY
Last Friday, as part of our consultation process, Hands On Hibs met with the board of Hibernian Supporters Limited. HSL is a body created by the football club Board to promote the Farmer/Petrie proposals. During the course of this meeting it was confirmed that no details of the £5million debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie) would be made available to the supporters. HOH reiterate our position that without total transparency no fans should donate to this scheme.
NOT AN INVESTMENT, JUST ANOTHER DONATION.
The board of HSL agreed with Hands On Hibs that the Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent a sound investment. In reality fans are being asked to donate money toward the club's running costs. While the club claims none of the money donated by fans will go to existing shareholders the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).
The argument that Hibs fans should donate money to this scheme just because we are Hibs fans is spurious. Manipulating the emotional ties supporters have with Hibernian Football Club is wrong. When at least some of that money is being used to pay a debt (the details of which are secret) to a multi millionaire it is immoral.
HIBS DESERVE BETTER
Presenting the Farmer/Petrie proposals as a take it or leave it proposition is a serious error on the part of the owner and the board. Hands On Hibs remain convinced the only way to achieve unity between the supporters and the club is for Tom Farmer to personally intervene in this change process. Without his engagement in this process it will fail.
The Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent community ownership or a realistic beginning in that journey. Hibernian Football Club is at a critical juncture. We reject the arguments of HSL that this might not be a good deal but it is the only deal available. Hands On Hibs will not accept a bad deal for Hibs supporters and this is a bad deal.
Hands On Hibs commend the Hibernian supporters already taking action against these proposals (see image below). HOH remain committed to working with other Hibs supporters to achieve the very best deal possible for Hibernian Football Club in the long term, the supporters and broader community.
‪#‎HandsOnHibs‬ (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/handsonhibs?source=feed_text&story_id=525154437626543)

Andy74
19-01-2015, 03:53 PM
PLEASE SHARE
THIS IS NOT COMMUNITY OWNERSHIP. IT'S A SHAKE DOWN.
Hands On Hibs have today written to Hibernian owner Tom Farmer confirming our decision to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals published last week. HOH made this decision after considering independent financial advice and consulting our activists and supporters.
... NO TRANSPARENCY
Last Friday, as part of our consultation process, Hands On Hibs met with the board of Hibernian Supporters Limited. HSL is a body created by the football club Board to promote the Farmer/Petrie proposals. During the course of this meeting it was confirmed that no details of the £5million debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie) would be made available to the supporters. HOH reiterate our position that without total transparency no fans should donate to this scheme.
NOT AN INVESTMENT, JUST ANOTHER DONATION.
The board of HSL agreed with Hands On Hibs that the Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent a sound investment. In reality fans are being asked to donate money toward the club's running costs. While the club claims none of the money donated by fans will go to existing shareholders the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).
The argument that Hibs fans should donate money to this scheme just because we are Hibs fans is spurious. Manipulating the emotional ties supporters have with Hibernian Football Club is wrong. When at least some of that money is being used to pay a debt (the details of which are secret) to a multi millionaire it is immoral.
HIBS DESERVE BETTER
Presenting the Farmer/Petrie proposals as a take it or leave it proposition is a serious error on the part of the owner and the board. Hands On Hibs remain convinced the only way to achieve unity between the supporters and the club is for Tom Farmer to personally intervene in this change process. Without his engagement in this process it will fail.
The Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent community ownership or a realistic beginning in that journey. Hibernian Football Club is at a critical juncture. We reject the arguments of HSL that this might not be a good deal but it is the only deal available. Hands On Hibs will not accept a bad deal for Hibs supporters and this is a bad deal.
Hands On Hibs commend the Hibernian supporters already taking action against these proposals (see image below). HOH remain committed to working with other Hibs supporters to achieve the very best deal possible for Hibernian Football Club in the long term, the supporters and broader community.
‪#‎HandsOnHibs‬ (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/handsonhibs?source=feed_text&story_id=525154437626543)

See More (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hands-On-Hibs/463793980429256#):flag:

This lot are becoming dangerous now.

Of course its a donation.

Of course part of our running costs has to be paying existing debt.

Do details of the £5m matter when it is £4.5m lower than our debt should be?? Are they considering the dilution of value to the current owners in the scheme?


Idiots.

marinello59
19-01-2015, 03:54 PM
This lot are becoming dangerous now.

Of course its a donation.

Do details of the £5m matter when it is £4.5m lower than our debt should be?? Are they considering the dilution of value to the current owners in the scheme?


Idiots.

Announcing their intention to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals?
Pompous and bonkers in equal measures.

Gatecrasher
19-01-2015, 03:55 PM
Here we go.... :rolleyes:

Dashing Bob S
19-01-2015, 03:58 PM
From Hands on Hibs (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hands-On-Hibs/463793980429256?fref=ts):

PLEASE SHARE
THIS IS NOT COMMUNITY OWNERSHIP. IT'S A SHAKE DOWN.
Hands On Hibs have today written to Hibernian owner Tom Farmer confirming our decision to reject the Farmer/Petrie proposals published last week. HOH made this decision after considering independent financial advice and consulting our activists and supporters.
NO TRANSPARENCY
Last Friday, as part of our consultation process, Hands On Hibs met with the board of Hibernian Supporters Limited. HSL is a body created by the football club Board to promote the Farmer/Petrie proposals. During the course of this meeting it was confirmed that no details of the £5million debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie) would be made available to the supporters. HOH reiterate our position that without total transparency no fans should donate to this scheme.
NOT AN INVESTMENT, JUST ANOTHER DONATION.
The board of HSL agreed with Hands On Hibs that the Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent a sound investment. In reality fans are being asked to donate money toward the club's running costs. While the club claims none of the money donated by fans will go to existing shareholders the club's Chief Executive confirmed to HOH at Friday's meeting that some of this money will be used to repay the debt to the holding company (Farmer/Petrie).
The argument that Hibs fans should donate money to this scheme just because we are Hibs fans is spurious. Manipulating the emotional ties supporters have with Hibernian Football Club is wrong. When at least some of that money is being used to pay a debt (the details of which are secret) to a multi millionaire it is immoral.
HIBS DESERVE BETTER
Presenting the Farmer/Petrie proposals as a take it or leave it proposition is a serious error on the part of the owner and the board. Hands On Hibs remain convinced the only way to achieve unity between the supporters and the club is for Tom Farmer to personally intervene in this change process. Without his engagement in this process it will fail.
The Farmer/Petrie proposals do not represent community ownership or a realistic beginning in that journey. Hibernian Football Club is at a critical juncture. We reject the arguments of HSL that this might not be a good deal but it is the only deal available. Hands On Hibs will not accept a bad deal for Hibs supporters and this is a bad deal.
Hands On Hibs commend the Hibernian supporters already taking action against these proposals (see image below). HOH remain committed to working with other Hibs supporters to achieve the very best deal possible for Hibernian Football Club in the long term, the supporters and broader community.
‪#‎HandsOnHibs‬ (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/handsonhibs?source=feed_text&story_id=525154437626543)

The HOH contention that this is a donation to help towards the club's running costs, rather than a transfer of ownership, is an interesting one.

As I understand it (with my extremely limited knowledge of finance), both the board and HOH are to some extent correct. What it seems to me we have is a mechanism whereby fans can own the club by buying 51% per cent of the shares, but in reality, as that target would be difficult to meet, an injection of extra revenue from the fans towards the development of the club, with ownership de facto staying the same.

I may be wildly off the mark here, perhaps some of our resident financial/legal experts could clarify?

CropleyWasGod
19-01-2015, 04:10 PM
The HOH contention that this is a donation to help towards the club's running costs, rather than a transfer of ownership, is an interesting one.

As I understand it (with my extremely limited knowledge of finance), both the board and HOH are to some extent correct. What it seems to me we have is a mechanism whereby fans can own the club by buying 51% per cent of the shares, but in reality, as that target would be difficult to meet, an injection of extra revenue from the fans towards the development of the club, with ownership de facto staying the same.

I may be wildly off the mark here, perhaps some of our resident financial/legal experts could clarify?

We have to be careful here.

Commenting on some of this may be construed as financial advice. My first reaction to HOH's statement is that they have done exactly that.

However, at the risk of having this post deleted........ "contributing towards running costs". If one defines that as helping out with the player budget, thereby affording a better standard of player, that is EXACTLY what fans want to contribute to. "Transfer of ownership" comes second to that.

Steve20
19-01-2015, 04:10 PM
People will tell you I wont go back till:

Petrie's gone

STF's gone

Fans own the club

yadda yadda yadda

Its all horse****, these same people will find another reason either now or in the future to decry the club for the simple reason that it and / or life is a disappointment to them and its easier to postulate on why that is and how unfair it is and whose fault it is, rather than take steps to improve things.




I know quite a few people who will happily be back once Petrie is gone, so calling it horse**** is just a lot of crap. They believe that Petrie should have been forced out a long time before relegation and i tend to agree. The problem was people happily just going along and accepting any pish the club produced and any spin they came out with.

If they want people to seriously think about putting money into this share offer, then Petrie should do the right thing and leave. But he won't.

NYHibby
19-01-2015, 04:23 PM
The HOH contention that this is a donation to help towards the club's running costs, rather than a transfer of ownership, is an interesting one.

As I understand it (with my extremely limited knowledge of finance), both the board and HOH are to some extent correct. What it seems to me we have is a mechanism whereby fans can own the club by buying 51% per cent of the shares, but in reality, as that target would be difficult to meet, an injection of extra revenue from the fans towards the development of the club, with ownership de facto staying the same.

I may be wildly off the mark here, perhaps some of our resident financial/legal experts could clarify?

You're right in the sense that HSL and independent fan shareholders are not going to own 50% of the shares overnight. If they only collectively hold 9% for example nothing will effectively change. But there are some thresholds before 50% which mean that STF's control of the club is reduced, HSL being able to block certain proposals which require a supermajority of shareholders for example.

Andy74
19-01-2015, 04:32 PM
The HOH contention that this is a donation to help towards the club's running costs, rather than a transfer of ownership, is an interesting one.

As I understand it (with my extremely limited knowledge of finance), both the board and HOH are to some extent correct. What it seems to me we have is a mechanism whereby fans can own the club by buying 51% per cent of the shares, but in reality, as that target would be difficult to meet, an injection of extra revenue from the fans towards the development of the club, with ownership de facto staying the same.

I may be wildly off the mark here, perhaps some of our resident financial/legal experts could clarify?

It's both. If we want to buy 51 percent in total then it's there.

The money goes to the club though not the current owners. Whether some goes to pay the debt is academic. It needs paid so all ends up the same way. If you didn't use any of this it comes from the usual sources and less of that goes to players. It's all just income.

NAE NOOKIE
19-01-2015, 05:53 PM
We have to be careful here.

Commenting on some of this may be construed as financial advice. My first reaction to HOH's statement is that they have done exactly that.

However, at the risk of having this post deleted........ "contributing towards running costs". If one defines that as helping out with the player budget, thereby affording a better standard of player, that is EXACTLY what fans want to contribute to. "Transfer of ownership" comes second to that.


This gets more confusing as time goes on and have to admit I am beginning to feel a bit thick. I don't care what Hibs do with any money I eventually might give so long as it benefits the club. However the bottom line for me is that the fans end up owning 51%. If that's not what this proposal is all about then I will see little point in subscribing to this.

CropleyWasGod
19-01-2015, 05:57 PM
[/B]This gets more confusing as time goes on and have to admit I am beginning to feel a bit thick. I don't care what Hibs do with any money I eventually might give so long as it benefits the club. However the bottom line for me is that the fans end up owning 51%. If that's not what this proposal is all about then I will see little point in subscribing to this.

As as been said, it's about both.

I was expressing my opinion that, for most fans, it is about financing the team on the park before (and, to be fair, probably only slightly before) actually owning them.

Lucius Apuleius
19-01-2015, 05:59 PM
[/B]This gets more confusing as time goes on and have to admit I am beginning to feel a bit thick. I don't care what Hibs do with any money I eventually might give so long as it benefits the club. However the bottom line for me is that the fans end up owning 51%. If that's not what this proposal is all about then I will see little point in subscribing to this.

I think that is what the HoH announcement is meant to do.

ancient hibee
19-01-2015, 08:03 PM
HOH are disappearing up their own exhaust pipe.Capital raising to be used to run company-wow what a show stopper-surely it'll never catch on?

Dashing Bob S
19-01-2015, 11:28 PM
Not going to get involved in discussing personalities, whether it's the board (who were universally detested on here only a few months ago) or HOH (who's confrontational style has turned people off) or other fans groups.

Let's look at the deal.

What has been highlighted is that the level of fan investment in shares purchases makes it unlikely that the 51% threshold of fan ownership could be reached soon. Although the mechanism is technically now there for this to happen at some point.

The second element is that any fan investment will either go towards the team, or 'other operating costs', which presumably could include repayment of club loans.

I think therefore, if you are interested in a transfer to fan ownership, at least in the short term, it probably isn't in your best interests to contribute.

If however, you are keen to help the club contribute towards costs, (over and above your existing contributions through ST's etc), it probably is in your interest, assuming you accept any 'guarantees' that the money is spent on improving the team rather than repaying loans.

I personally believe that if this model is being sold on fan ownership, that's great, but we should be realistic about the likely timeframe needed by fans to inject enough money to buy enough shares for this to happen. But given the reality of the situation, it would seem to me to be a way of getting more money into the club, which is commendable, but without offering much of substance, at least in the short term.

So the board are asking you to believe in them, while HOH are telling you it's a rip-off. There is no real right or wrong. It depends on what your expectations for the club are. The board is right to try and raise money any way it can, the fans groups are correct in saying 'we pay too much anyway.' The board -crucially- are also challenging the fans, by saying: 'the club is yours if you want it, and are prepared to invest in your droves to get 51% of the shares.' Otherwise...

marinello59
20-01-2015, 06:27 AM
Not going to get involved in discussing personalities, whether it's the board (who were universally detested on here only a few months ago) or HOH (who's confrontational style has turned people off) or other fans groups.

Let's look at the deal.

What has been highlighted is that the level of fan investment in shares purchases makes it unlikely that the 51% threshold of fan ownership could be reached soon. Although the mechanism is technically now there for this to happen at some point.

The second element is that any fan investment will either go towards the team, or 'other operating costs', which presumably could include repayment of club loans.

I think therefore, if you are interested in a transfer to fan ownership, at least in the short term, it probably isn't in your best interests to contribute.

If however, you are keen to help the club contribute towards costs, (over and above your existing contributions through ST's etc), it probably is in your interest, assuming you accept any 'guarantees' that the money is spent on improving the team rather than repaying loans.

I personally believe that if this model is being sold on fan ownership, that's great, but we should be realistic about the likely timeframe needed by fans to inject enough money to buy enough shares for this to happen. But given the reality of the situation, it would seem to me to be a way of getting more money into the club, which is commendable, but without offering much of substance, at least in the short term.

So the board are asking you to believe in them, while HOH are telling you it's a rip-off. There is no real right or wrong. It depends on what your expectations for the club are. The board is right to try and raise money any way it can, the fans groups are correct in saying 'we pay too much anyway.' The board -crucially- are also challenging the fans, by saying: 'the club is yours if you want it, and are prepared to invest in your droves to get 51% of the shares.' Otherwise...

I think HoH describing it as a rip off is wrong. If you want to own a football club then you have to join the grown up world and accept that a lot of your money will be sucked up by things other than the team on the park. That's not a rip off, it's reality.
The part in bold. 51% ownership can only be seen as a long term aim here. This scheme shares lot in common with the BuyHibs proposals and also suffers from the same flaw, if the appetite ain't really there to own the club then it simply won't take off.

grunt
20-01-2015, 06:39 AM
I think therefore, if you are interested in a transfer to fan ownership, at least in the short term, it probably isn't in your best interests to contribute.


I'm not sure I understand this comment. How does fan ownership come about if fans don't buy shares?

Mikey
20-01-2015, 09:47 AM
Just to confirm, if anyone needs to contact the club about the share issue it's....

shares@hibernianfc.co.uk

Weststandwanab
20-01-2015, 10:06 AM
Just to confirm, if anyone needs to contact the club about the share issue it's....

shares@hibernianfc.co.uk

Sent a query there 36 hour ago and copied in NCM Fund Services.

No reply from Hibs and the e-mail address as stated on the NCM web Site was not recognised.

In the meantime I have found an I.F.A. and got my form signed.

PeeKay
20-01-2015, 10:34 AM
Sent a query there 36 hour ago and copied in NCM Fund Services.

No reply from Hibs and the e-mail address as stated on the NCM web Site was not recognised.

In the meantime I have found an I.F.A. and got my form signed.

Care to give your IFA some free advertising??

Weststandwanab
20-01-2015, 10:42 AM
Care to give your IFA some free advertising??

I will ask and get back to you.

offshorehibby
20-01-2015, 12:24 PM
Not going to get involved in discussing personalities, whether it's the board (who were universally detested on here only a few months ago) or HOH (who's confrontational style has turned people off) or other fans groups.

Let's look at the deal.

What has been highlighted is that the level of fan investment in shares purchases makes it unlikely that the 51% threshold of fan ownership could be reached soon. Although the mechanism is technically now there for this to happen at some point.

The second element is that any fan investment will either go towards the team, or 'other operating costs', which presumably could include repayment of club loans.

I think therefore, if you are interested in a transfer to fan ownership, at least in the short term, it probably isn't in your best interests to contribute.

If however, you are keen to help the club contribute towards costs, (over and above your existing contributions through ST's etc), it probably is in your interest, assuming you accept any 'guarantees' that the money is spent on improving the team rather than repaying loans.

I personally believe that if this model is being sold on fan ownership, that's great, but we should be realistic about the likely timeframe needed by fans to inject enough money to buy enough shares for this to happen. But given the reality of the situation, it would seem to me to be a way of getting more money into the club, which is commendable, but without offering much of substance, at least in the short term.

So the board are asking you to believe in them, while HOH are telling you it's a rip-off. There is no real right or wrong. It depends on what your expectations for the club are. The board is right to try and raise money any way it can, the fans groups are correct in saying 'we pay too much anyway.' The board -crucially- are also challenging the fans, by saying: 'the club is yours if you want it, and are prepared to invest in your droves to get 51% of the shares.' Otherwise...

I've heard you bang on a couple of times saying the uptake wont be that great, i disagree. I looked at this when the accounts first dropped through the door.

Looking at it the easiest way and assuming i have done my sums correctly it would take 12,500 fans buying £200 worth directly to achieve our goal. That wont happen some fans will probably buy more.

Lets break it down a we bit more:
3000 @ 200 = 1,000,000
1000 @ 400 = 400,000
500 @ 1000 = 500,000
100 @ 10,000 = 1,000,000

I already own shares so have my voice now and in the future.

I will probably buy more direct and also via HSL

If it was proved/decided that owning shares vis HSL would give the Hibs support a greater say in the future running of the club then i would invest via HSL

ancient hibee
20-01-2015, 04:31 PM
Not going to get involved in discussing personalities, whether it's the board (who were universally detested on here only a few months ago) or HOH (who's confrontational style has turned people off) or other fans groups.

Let's look at the deal.

What has been highlighted is that the level of fan investment in shares purchases makes it unlikely that the 51% threshold of fan ownership could be reached soon. Although the mechanism is technically now there for this to happen at some point.

The second element is that any fan investment will either go towards the team, or 'other operating costs', which presumably could include repayment of club loans.

I think therefore, if you are interested in a transfer to fan ownership, at least in the short term, it probably isn't in your best interests to contribute.

If however, you are keen to help the club contribute towards costs, (over and above your existing contributions through ST's etc), it probably is in your interest, assuming you accept any 'guarantees' that the money is spent on improving the team rather than repaying loans.

I personally believe that if this model is being sold on fan ownership, that's great, but we should be realistic about the likely timeframe needed by fans to inject enough money to buy enough shares for this to happen. But given the reality of the situation, it would seem to me to be a way of getting more money into the club, which is commendable, but without offering much of substance, at least in the short term.

So the board are asking you to believe in them, while HOH are telling you it's a rip-off. There is no real right or wrong. It depends on what your expectations for the club are. The board is right to try and raise money any way it can, the fans groups are correct in saying 'we pay too much anyway.' The board -crucially- are also challenging the fans, by saying: 'the club is yours if you want it, and are prepared to invest in your droves to get 51% of the shares.' Otherwise...

I have to say that I think you're really confused.How can you possibly think that if people are really interested in fan ownership they should not contribute.If everyone takes that view then there never will be fan ownership.Obviously this will take a number of years because people just do not have that sort of money spare but as we say at cliche corner "Rome wasn't built in a day"-no offence to religious maniacs.

Andy74
20-01-2015, 04:49 PM
I have to say that I think you're really confused.How can you possibly think that if people are really interested in fan ownership they should not contribute.If everyone takes that view then there never will be fan ownership.Obviously this will take a number of years because people just do not have that sort of money spare but as we say at cliche corner "Rome wasn't built in a day"-no offence to religious maniacs.
What does that saying have to do with religion?!

Saturday Boy
20-01-2015, 04:53 PM
What does that saying have to do with religion?!
I think he may be confusing RC (Rome) with Julius Caesar and his lot. I blame history teachers myself.

Real Emerald
20-01-2015, 05:11 PM
I've heard you bang on a couple of times saying the uptake wont be that great, i disagree. I looked at this when the accounts first dropped through the door.

Looking at it the easiest way and assuming i have done my sums correctly it would take 12,500 fans buying £200 worth directly to achieve our goal. That wont happen some fans will probably buy more.

Lets break it down a we bit more:
3000 @ 200 = 1,000,000
1000 @ 400 = 400,000
500 @ 1000 = 500,000
100 @ 10,000 = 1,000,000

I already own shares so have my voice now and in the future.

I will probably buy more direct and also via HSL

If it was proved/decided that owning shares vis HSL would give the Hibs support a greater say in the future running of the club then i would invest via HSL

First of all I hope the club is successful in the future no matter how they're structured but I personally don't really understand why fan ownership is going to benefit them. I'd rather have an enthusiastic owner with ambitions but I guess they're like hen's teeth in Scottish football these days.

I just can't see take up of that amount tbh and I'm struggling to understand why anyone would want to have £10k of shares as opposed to say £1k, I just don't see the point. I know it's a donation to your team but it just doesn't compute!

I'm not against this as I say but really can't see them getting the numbers, sorry.

HUTCHYHIBBY
20-01-2015, 05:29 PM
Sent a query there 36 hour ago and copied in NCM Fund Services.

No reply from Hibs and the e-mail address as stated on the NCM web Site was not recognised.

In the meantime I have found an I.F.A. and got my form signed.

How much was the IFA's fee?

HiBremian
20-01-2015, 06:31 PM
I've heard you bang on a couple of times saying the uptake wont be that great, i disagree. I looked at this when the accounts first dropped through the door.

Looking at it the easiest way and assuming i have done my sums correctly it would take 12,500 fans buying £200 worth directly to achieve our goal. That wont happen some fans will probably buy more.

Lets break it down a we bit more:
3000 @ 200 = 600,000
1000 @ 400 = 400,000
500 @ 1000 = 500,000
100 @ 10,000 = 1,000,000

I already own shares so have my voice now and in the future.

I will probably buy more direct and also via HSL

If it was proved/decided that owning shares vis HSL would give the Hibs support a greater say in the future running of the club then i would invest via HSL

Fixed that for you :wink:


First of all I hope the club is successful in the future no matter how they're structured but I personally don't really understand why fan ownership is going to benefit them. I'd rather have an enthusiastic owner with ambitions but I guess they're like hen's teeth in Scottish football these days.

I just can't see take up of that amount tbh and I'm struggling to understand why anyone would want to have £10k of shares as opposed to say £1k, I just don't see the point. I know it's a donation to your team but it just doesn't compute!

I'm not against this as I say but really can't see them getting the numbers, sorry.

I guess it's down to where you think football is going in the future - the English Prem model or the German Bundesliga one. I'm clear which one I prefer, and will back it with what I can afford for my beloved Hibs.

Not sure how many people there are who feel the same, and have a spare £10k. though. :cb

Weststandwanab
20-01-2015, 06:31 PM
How much was the IFA's fee?

Not a lot !

Saturday Boy
20-01-2015, 06:36 PM
Not a lot !

I wondered what Paul Daniels was up to these days :wink:

Mikey
20-01-2015, 07:30 PM
http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?297514-Financial-Conduct-Authority-Non-Readily-Realisable-Securities

Mikey
22-01-2015, 12:56 PM
I think it would be worth holding off to see what comes of the HSL Q&A before rushing off to see an IFA, particularly if they're charging a hefty fee!

We still have time on our side as the shares aren't available as yet.

Dashing Bob S
22-01-2015, 01:51 PM
I think it would be worth holding off to see what comes of the HSL Q&A before rushing off to see an IFA, particularly if they're charging a hefty fee!

We still have time on our side as the shares aren't available as yet.

I think this is sensible.

People need to consider what their personal objectives are. Do they really want fan ownership in general, and if so do they want to be more actively involved in the decision making process themselves? Or are they happy for the club to be owned by a private individual or company, and want to contribute extra to they playing side?

Dashing Bob S
22-01-2015, 02:02 PM
I have to say that I think you're really confused.How can you possibly think that if people are really interested in fan ownership they should not contribute.If everyone takes that view then there never will be fan ownership.Obviously this will take a number of years because people just do not have that sort of money spare but as we say at cliche corner "Rome wasn't built in a day"-no offence to religious maniacs.

I did say in the short term. I'm suspecting that there will probably not be a take up big enough to secure fan ownership with this share issue. I'm not opposed to the scheme, in fact I think it's a step forward, but it asks a lot of the support, and I'm concerned about the lack of guarantees it gives them. In that light I am concerned that 'fan ownership' might be a Trojan Horse to secure greater investment from supporters in the club.

That's not a slight on the board. I don't think they should be demonized by fans groups for coming up with this scheme. (There have plenty of other things to demonize them about over the last seven years - let's keep this issue separate.) I do think it should be looked at very soberly, and people should measure their own aspirations for the club against what this package is likely to deliver.

I was a betting man, I would say that the likely outcome of all this is that fans put extra money into the club and the ownership remains the same, albeit fans have a stronger voice, through the wider ownership of shares.

That would be a thoroughly acceptable outcome for many people, but way short of the panacea it's touted as on the club website.

ancient hibee
22-01-2015, 07:44 PM
As you'll obviously know the only way to have fan ownership is to achieve 51% and this will take time but the only way to do it is to build up the holding.I think it's a reasonable scheme and the board can not be blamed if it's a low take up-it's up to us to do as best we can.Our friends at Tynecastle are putting over a million quid extra a year into the club and are getting nothing for it(except the continuance of the club) at least we know what's on offer.Rangers fans talk about fan ownership but have no chance of achieving it-probably in truth what they really want is the arrival of a tax dodging South African on a white horse ready to throw in forty million so they can take their rightful and deserved place at the top of Scottish fotball:greengrin

emerald green
22-01-2015, 07:55 PM
I think this is sensible.

People need to consider what their personal objectives are. Do they really want fan ownership in general, and if so do they want to be more actively involved in the decision making process themselves? Or are they happy for the club to be owned by a private individual or company, and want to contribute extra to they playing side?

I think partial fan ownership (51%) is much more preferable than being "owned by a private individual" like Craig White for example. :greengrin