Speed Limit/Parking Nightmare ahead?

[Sylar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30709507

Edinburgh's going to be a nightmare if both the speed limit reduction/eradication of free parking are introduced!

[Jack]

Council stupidity.

1,384 days ago the trams were due to debut on Leith Walk.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30709507

Edinburgh's going to be a nightmare if both the speed limit reduction/eradication of free parking are introduced!

Don't see the speed-limit thing as being an issue. It's difficult to get above 20 in town as it is. If it cuts speed, and helps safety, I'm all for it.

As for the parking, how has it been received in, say, London? Has it cut down on traffic, or is it a money-earner for the Council?

[Scouse Hibee]

I keep hearing people saying it's difficult to get over 20mph anyway??? No it's not!

[The_Exile]

Can't see it being largely enforceable anyway TBH, you'd need a bobby with a speed gun on every street corner.

[lord bunberry]

Having a 20 mile an hour speed limit is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. Can you imagine driving along at 02:00 and having to stick to 20 mph on empty roads. I drive around edinburgh all day and the thought of crawling along at that speed doesn't bare thinking about. This council has never stopped trying to bash the motorists since we rejected the congestion charge.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

All to make the tardiness of the trams look a bit better.

As a cabbie said to me - why did they get rid of the trams in the first place? Because they caused congestion - well here we are again. Not all families can cycle places...

[speedy_gonzales]

Can't see it being largely enforceable anyway TBH, you'd need a bobby with a speed gun on every street corner.
Enforcement is going to be difficult, but all it needs during the day (or busy periods) is for the driver in front to stick at 20 then everyone's at 20.
Not many folk overtake in urban built up areas.
I notice this at the signed 20 outside Forresters/St Augustines. A lot of drivers plod on at 30 but when someone drives at 20 (quite rightly) the rest follow.

[Colr]

Council stupidity.

1,384 days ago the trams were due to debut on Leith Walk.

The more left wing councils have been rolling this out in London for a while. Its for the "greater good" rather than what the people they are supposed to be serving want.

Why don't theyput it to a vote like they did the Congestion Charge in Edinburgh?

Still get free parking outside the centre on Sunday.

[CropleyWasGod]

The more left wing councils have been rolling this out in London for a while. Its for the "greater good" rather than what the people they are supposed to be serving want.

Why don't theyput it to a vote like they did the Congestion Charge in Edinburgh?

Still get free parking outside the centre on Sunday.
What's been the reaction in London?

[CropleyWasGod]

Having a 20 mile an hour speed limit is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. Can you imagine driving along at 02:00 and having to stick to 20 mph on empty roads. I drive around edinburgh all day and the thought of crawling along at that speed doesn't bare thinking about. This council has never stopped trying to bash the motorists since we rejected the congestion charge.
Don't blame me. I voted for it [emoji6]

[lord bunberry]

Don't blame me. I voted for it [emoji6]

So you were the one :greengrin

[snooky]

20mph?
The lunatics have taken over the asylum - yet again.
Whatever happened to (real) democracy?

[BroxburnHibee]

Think the police have said they won't be actively enforcing it. Let's be honest how many folk stick rigidly to 30 in town when it's possible.

Think the idea has merits for safety reasons but not as a blanket across all city roads.

[Hibby Bairn]

Tried 20mph on Drum Brae last night. Felt like something out of a sci-fi movie.

[steakbake]

Let's be honest, most of the time you rarely get above 10/15mph in Edinburgh anyway!

[The_Exile]

I think it's a bit of showmanship from the Cooncil when all is said and done, although it might make me feel a bit safer on my bike when I'm hammering it down broughton street at 25mph :fishin:

[--------]

I notice Leslie Hinds refers to support from the parents of teenagers and children.

When I was a kid, I was taught "kerb drill" - to look right, left, and right again, and only to step off the pavement when it was safe to do so. My parents taught me, my school taught me, and it was taught in public information films on children's TV.

It's one of the main reasons I've reached the stage of being a crabby auld 64-year old.

This was because my parents and teachers (and society in general at the time) assumed that pedestrians (even children and teens) share responsibility for their own safety.

It appears that nowadays drivers are being held responsible for their own conduct and everyone else's - pedestrians and cyclists can behave without any perceptible care for their own or anyone else's safety, and escape censure.

If I'm driving, and I jump the lights at a pelican crossing, that's an offence punishable in law. If a bunch of teenagers wander across against the lights, it's a joke. But heaven help the driver who even comes near hitting one of them.

In some people's eyes, it's always the car-driver's fault.

[Scouse Hibee]

You should their faces when I accelerate rather than brake. Had one boy on Craigs road trying to be a smart erse a few years ago, ******d himself and then I stopped and told him in front of his mates that he wasn't so brave now eh. Called me a lunatic and walked away with his head down. It made me feel so much better :-)

[RyeSloan]

Unenforceable nonsense.

I googled deaths on Edinburghs roads and the BBC had a rather interesting map...almost all of them were on A roads or key stretches of road where I assume the road layout is the reason. There was virtually none associated with the 80% that the council is targeting.

I 100% agree with the police who suggested they will focus on key areas like schools etc...that's where traffic calming and speed reductions should be applied. A blanket 20mph limit that will be ignored sounds more likely to dilute the effect of these key areas than support them.

That said if limits are now 20mph I would assume the council will now remove all the speed bumps and other nonsense they have plastered all over the roads as clearly these will no longer be required....

[NAE NOOKIE]

FFS .... About 7 miles of the A7 is already down to 40mph coz of the rail works. Its about 3 miles from the end of the bypass to ER, if they make that 20mph at this rate I'm going to have to leave for ER at 7am.

[snooky]

I suggest that everyone should drive in reverse gear.
May as well get some practice in now if those bamsticks intend to keep on cutting the speed limits.

[lord bunberry]

I drove along regent road last night at 20mph I felt like I was curb crawling

[Hibrandenburg]

I notice Leslie Hinds refers to support from the parents of teenagers and children.

When I was a kid, I was taught "kerb drill" - to look right, left, and right again, and only to step off the pavement when it was safe to do so. My parents taught me, my school taught me, and it was taught in public information films on children's TV.

It's one of the main reasons I've reached the stage of being a crabby auld 64-year old.

This was because my parents and teachers (and society in general at the time) assumed that pedestrians (even children and teens) share responsibility for their own safety.

It appears that nowadays drivers are being held responsible for their own conduct and everyone else's - pedestrians and cyclists can behave without any perceptible care for their own or anyone else's safety, and escape censure.

If I'm driving, and I jump the lights at a pelican crossing, that's an offence punishable in law. If a bunch of teenagers wander across against the lights, it's a joke. But heaven help the driver who even comes near hitting one of them.

In some people's eyes, it's always the car-driver's fault.

What! Obey traffic laws and regulations? Wait for the green man before crossing? You're not German are you Georg? :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I think it's a bit of showmanship from the Cooncil when all is said and done, although it might make me feel a bit safer on my bike when I'm hammering through red lights down broughton street at 25mph :fishin:

Fixed that for you. :greengrin

[snooky]

I notice Leslie Hinds refers to support from the parents of teenagers and children.

When I was a kid, I was taught "kerb drill" - to look right, left, and right again, and only to step off the pavement when it was safe to do so. My parents taught me, my school taught me, and it was taught in public information films on children's TV.

It's one of the main reasons I've reached the stage of being a crabby auld 64-year old.

This was because my parents and teachers (and society in general at the time) assumed that pedestrians (even children and teens) share responsibility for their own safety.

It appears that nowadays drivers are being held responsible for their own conduct and everyone else's - pedestrians and cyclists can behave without any perceptible care for their own or anyone else's safety, and escape censure.

If I'm driving, and I jump the lights at a pelican crossing, that's an offence punishable in law. If a bunch of teenagers wander across against the lights, it's a joke. But heaven help the driver who even comes near hitting one of them.

In some people's eyes, it's always the car-driver's fault.



Cyclists are lobbying for a law that will mean if they get hit by a vehicle, the driver is foremostly assumed to be at fault.
It will be up to the driver to prove his innocence. Ergo guilty until proved innocent.

This is the way society is heading as a whole ... :crazy:

(For all you cryptic crossword freaks :greengrin .... nuFts)

[lapsedhibee]

Cyclists are lobbying for a law that will mean if they get hit by a vehicle, the driver is foremostly assumed to be at fault.
It will be up to the driver to prove his innocence. Ergo guilty until proved innocent.

This is the way society is heading as a whole ... :crazy:



Do we not already have something like this 'strict liability' principle, proposed for car/bike (and also bike/pedestrian) collisions, in employment law - where, if I understand things right, an accident at work is presumed to be the employers' fault unless they can demonstrate otherwise? :dunno:

[CropleyWasGod]

I notice Leslie Hinds refers to support from the parents of teenagers and children.

When I was a kid, I was taught "kerb drill" - to look right, left, and right again, and only to step off the pavement when it was safe to do so. My parents taught me, my school taught me, and it was taught in public information films on children's TV.

It's one of the main reasons I've reached the stage of being a crabby auld 64-year old.

This was because my parents and teachers (and society in general at the time) assumed that pedestrians (even children and teens) share responsibility for their own safety.

It appears that nowadays drivers are being held responsible for their own conduct and everyone else's - pedestrians and cyclists can behave without any perceptible care for their own or anyone else's safety, and escape censure.

If I'm driving, and I jump the lights at a pelican crossing, that's an offence punishable in law. If a bunch of teenagers wander across against the lights, it's a joke. But heaven help the driver who even comes near hitting one of them.

In some people's eyes, it's always the car-driver's fault.



Cyclists are lobbying for a law that will mean if they get hit by a vehicle, the driver is foremostly assumed to be at fault.
It will be up to the driver to prove his innocence. Ergo guilty until proved innocent.

This is the way society is heading as a whole ... :crazy:

(For all you cryptic crossword freaks :greengrin .... nuFts)
As a cyclist.....and a car driver. ....I find this utterly bizarre.

It's a cop out for those cyclists who have no road sense, and an embarrassment to the majority who do.

[snooky]

As a cyclist.....and a car driver. ....I find this utterly bizarre.

It's a cop out for those cyclists who have no road sense, and an embarrassment to the majority who do.

:agree: While I agree car drivers are not perfect road users, some of the actions of cyclists are wanton.
How many look over their shoulder when pulling out to overtake parked vehicles?

IMO the most arrogant of all road users are the cycling club swarmers.
They have little respect for anyone on the highways. :tin hat:

[overdrive]

I notice Leslie Hinds refers to support from the parents of teenagers and children.

When I was a kid, I was taught "kerb drill" - to look right, left, and right again, and only to step off the pavement when it was safe to do so. My parents taught me, my school taught me, and it was taught in public information films on children's TV.

It's one of the main reasons I've reached the stage of being a crabby auld 64-year old.

This was because my parents and teachers (and society in general at the time) assumed that pedestrians (even children and teens) share responsibility for their own safety.

It appears that nowadays drivers are being held responsible for their own conduct and everyone else's - pedestrians and cyclists can behave without any perceptible care for their own or anyone else's safety, and escape censure.

If I'm driving, and I jump the lights at a pelican crossing, that's an offence punishable in law. If a bunch of teenagers wander across against the lights, it's a joke. But heaven help the driver who even comes near hitting one of them.

In some people's eyes, it's always the car-driver's fault.



Cyclists are lobbying for a law that will mean if they get hit by a vehicle, the driver is foremostly assumed to be at fault.
It will be up to the driver to prove his innocence. Ergo guilty until proved innocent.

This is the way society is heading as a whole ... :crazy:

(For all you cryptic crossword freaks :greengrin .... nuFts)

Does something like this not already exist in case law (perhaps under English law though)? I can't remember the specifics but I'm sure the leading case was actually involving an accident involving John Burridge getting pelted with a car door opening when he was on his bike.

[Hibbyradge]

20 mph scheme approved.

After looking at the new proposals in more detail, I don't think they'll cause any problems for drivers.

http://edinburghcouncilmaps.info/LocalViewExt/Sites/20mphConsultation/#

[lord bunberry]

20 mph scheme approved.

After looking at the new proposals in more detail, I don't think they'll cause any problems for drivers.

http://edinburghcouncilmaps.info/LocalViewExt/Sites/20mphConsultation/#

I disagree

[Future17]

20 mph scheme approved.

After looking at the new proposals in more detail, I don't think they'll cause any problems for drivers.

http://edinburghcouncilmaps.info/LocalViewExt/Sites/20mphConsultation/#

I don't really care about the speed restrictions and, if pushed would probably support the principle. However, I'm intrigued as to how they can measure the benefit of an unenforceable speed limit versus the cost of implementing the system - especially when the Council is required to save £67m from the budget over the next 3 years.

[Hibby Bairn]

I don't really care about the speed restrictions and, if pushed would probably support the principle. However, I'm intrigued as to how they can measure the benefit of an unenforceable speed limit versus the cost of implementing the system - especially when the Council is required to save £67m from the budget over the next 3 years.

I guess you would start with placing a beneficial value in £££ on someone's life. Assuming road deaths in 20 mph zones fall then you can measure benefit. Probably.

[lord bunberry]

I don't really care about the speed restrictions and, if pushed would probably support the principle. However, I'm intrigued as to how they can measure the benefit of an unenforceable speed limit versus the cost of implementing the system - especially when the Council is required to save £67m from the budget over the next 3 years.

Apparently it's going to cost £6.5m. IMO it's just another vanity project so the council can say "look at us" with little or no regard for the people of Edinburgh

[lord bunberry]

I guess you would start with placing a beneficial value in £££ on someone's life. Assuming road deaths in 20 mph zones fall then you can measure benefit. Probably.

There isn't any evidence that cutting the speed limit to 20mph saves lives.

[RyeSloan]

There isn't any evidence that cutting the speed limit to 20mph saves lives.

There isn't any real evidence to support this move at all. I've seen the councils 10 myths busted e-mail and it's a pile of unsubstantiated nonsense.

£6.5m...wow.

[Future17]

I guess you would start with placing a beneficial value in £££ on someone's life. Assuming road deaths in 20 mph zones fall then you can measure benefit. Probably.

I know that the likelihood of surviving being hit by a car at is said to increase at reduced speeds, but if everyone knows the scheme is not enforceable, what is the likelihood of the majority abiding by the new rules?

FWIW, I am in favour of traffic calming measure in principle, but this seems like a gimmicky waste of money.

[Colr]

I heard a Labour politician on the radio this morning answering the charge that they were being paternalistic and bullying to the public they were suposed to serve. "Not at all!" She replied " We are empowering people to make better choices in their lives!"

"That's interesting", I thought. "I will be empowering my local candidate to make a more appropriate career choice at the next election"

There doesn't seem to be much difference in the centralising a controlling mind set of the current Labour left and the SNP.

[RyeSloan]

I know that the likelihood of surviving being hit by a car at is said to increase at reduced speeds, but if everyone knows the scheme is not enforceable, what is the likelihood of the majority abiding by the new rules? FWIW, I am in favour of traffic calming measure in principle, but this seems like a gimmicky waste of money.

It's one thing to state that being hit by a slower moving object reduces injury...that's blindingly obvious.

It's quite another to suggest that spending £6.5m to put up road signs will actually reduce impact speeds. I would love to see the research on Edinburgh RTA's that proves excessive speed (30mph in council terms) was responsible for the majority of injuries...most RTA's would appear to be in the city centre where I assume average speeds are already low.

I suppose I'm not against the principle no matter how daft it seems to suggest that drivers will adhere to such a low speed however it's the justification of it that rankles...a lot of fluff about 'living streets' and the like and very little hard facts based on actual incidents raises my suspicions.

[Hibby Bairn]

There isn't any evidence that cutting the speed limit to 20mph saves lives.

In that case the council should probably do a defined test of the 20mph in an area of high traffic accidents and deaths and confirm evidence or otherwise over a defined time period.

Then a more informed decision could be taken based on factual research.

[Pete]

If it's going to be forced through then why not make it part time, between 7.30 am-pm?

Travelling at 20 when it's 3 in the morning is ridiculous. Does travelling at low speeds not also lead to more pollution?

[snooky]

In that case the council should probably do a defined test of the 20mph in an area of high traffic accidents and deaths and confirm evidence or otherwise over a defined time period.

Then a more informed decision could be taken based on factual research.

Sorry, but statistics are a load of bollocks. One accident due to e.g. weather, bad driving (at any speed), car defects, etc can give a false impression on 'safety' factor of a road. Statisticians cause more grief than anyone. Why not just use common sense and hammer bad drivers? :doh:
20mph grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[LaMotta]

Sorry, but statistics are a load of bollocks. One accident due to e.g. weather, bad driving (at any speed), car defects, etc can give a false impression on 'safety' factor of a road. Statisticians cause more grief than anyone. Why not just use common sense and hammer bad drivers? :doh:
20mph grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

53.78% of statistics are made up on the spot.

[ACLeith]

53.78% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Sorry, you've made that up. Everyone knows it's 87.35 :rolleyes:

[LaMotta]

Sorry, you've made that up. Everyone knows it's 87.35 :rolleyes:

No way! Ive been proven to be right 60% of the time, EVERY time.

[ACLeith]

No way! Ive been proven to be right 60% of the time, EVERY time.
WOW! It's only 59% for me, so we disagree 1% of the time, what subject I wonder? First scorer tomorrow maybe?

[ACLeith]

Sorry, to get back on-topic, I drove yesterday in some Leith streets at 20. Whilst I agree with low limits around places like schools, I can see there being an increase in frustration when drivers fail to notice a change from 20 to 30, create queues and can't be passed due to the street layout.

Some drivers are more dangerous at 20 than others are at 30. Those that can't see beyond their own bonnet and are incapable of anticipating what is going on around them.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Sorry, to get back on-topic, I drove yesterday in some Leith streets at 20. Whilst I agree with low limits around places like schools, I can see there being an increase in frustration when drivers fail to notice a change from 20 to 30, create queues and can't be passed due to the street layout.

Some drivers are more dangerous at 20 than others are at 30. Those that can't see beyond their own bonnet and are incapable of anticipating what is going on around them.

There really isnae many streets in built up areas of Edinburgh that you can get past 20mph. Personally I find it frustrating driving in Edinburgh now because apart from going to ER i can drive more freely living in the sticks now. Work wise- Edinburgh does my nut in, would seriously consider not going if a congestion charge was introduced, I think the council is looking for that to happen very soon.

[ACLeith]

There really isnae many streets in built up areas of Edinburgh that you can get past 20mph. Personally I find it frustrating driving in Edinburgh now because apart from going to ER i can drive more freely living in the sticks now. Work wise- Edinburgh does my nut in, would seriously consider not going if a congestion charge was introduced, I think the council is looking for that to happen very soon.
I tried it along the front of Leith Links, Salamander Street and Ocean Drive. Made sure there was no other traffic - farcical. I agree with the city centre, never take my car there, jump on a bus and use my free pass! Is it all reprisals for rejecting the congestion charge or would that be too clever fir the Cooncil?

[snooky]

I'm surprised there has been no reaction from the masses.
I wonder how many people (grrrr) 'statistically' want it?
1 in 3? (The '1' being cyclists and people who don't drive) :kbacker:

Now you won't have to jump into a taxi & say "Follow that car". You can do it yourself with an easy jog.

[LaMotta]

Sorry, to get back on-topic, I drove yesterday in some Leith streets at 20. Whilst I agree with low limits around places like schools, I can see there being an increase in frustration when drivers fail to notice a change from 20 to 30, create queues and can't be passed due to the street layout.

Some drivers are more dangerous at 20 than others are at 30. Those that can't see beyond their own bonnet and are incapable of anticipating what is going on around them.


Are you sure it is acceptable in this day and age to talk about women in that way?

[Colr]

This in the Weeg
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/glasgow-drivers-face-24-hour-ban-from-all-bus-lanes.116309351

[Jack]

On a slightly different tack I'd like to see something done about folk using their mobile phone while crossing the road, not at an official crossing.

It would reduce accidents like the stupid bint who was crossing the road in front of me and slowed in the middle of the carriageway as she tried to explain something on her phone.

It might not have been just her knickers that were messy! The front of my van could have been covered in blood! ;-)

[Colr]

On a slightly different tack I'd like to see something done about folk using their mobile phone while crossing the road, not at an official crossing.

It would reduce accidents like the stupid bint who was crossing the road in front of me and slowed in the middle of the carriageway as she tried to explain something on her phone.

It might not have been just her knickers that were messy! The front of my van could have been covered in blood! ;-)

I think jay walking is an offense in the US.

[lapsedhibee]

On a slightly different tack I'd like to see something done about folk using their mobile phone while crossing the road, not at an official crossing.

It would reduce accidents like the stupid bint who was crossing the road in front of me and slowed in the middle of the carriageway as she tried to explain something on her phone.

It might not have been just her knickers that were messy! The front of my van could have been covered in blood! ;-)

Give your brake pedal a rest and let Darwin take its course! :agree:

[EH6 Hibby]

I'm still amazed at the amount of drivers who still drive whilst using their phones. I nearly had an accident with an idiot on London Road last night because he was too busy talking on his phone to realise that the traffic in from of him had moved. When I attempted to go round him he then started moving and switched lanes without indicating, almost hitting me.

[Colr]

I'm still amazed at the amount of drivers who still drive whilst using their phones. I nearly had an accident with an idiot on London Road last night because he was too busy talking on his phone to realise that the traffic in from of him had moved. When I attempted to go round him he then started moving and switched lanes without indicating, almost hitting me.

Totally agree. There's no need for it either. Just get a cradle for it or use bluetooth through the satnav if you really have to talk.

[ACLeith]

[/B]

Are you sure it is acceptable in this day and age to talk about women in that way?

:devil: :stirrer:

[Colr]

Is this move to make people use their crappy tram more?

I was up in Edinburgh at Christmas and the tram from the airport would have cost us about the same as a cab, taken 20 minutes longer and would have left us with a steep hill to climb with our luggage so we took a cab. Given that the initial rationale (over just putting a cord in to connect to the railway) was to connect the airport, its pretty badly thought out. Maybe reducing the traffic to a snails pace will give it an edge.

[Hibbyradge]

Is this move to make people use their crappy tram more?

I was up in Edinburgh at Christmas and the tram from the airport would have cost us about the same as a cab, taken 20 minutes longer and would have left us with a steep hill to climb with our luggage so we took a cab. Given that the initial rationale (over just putting a cord in to connect to the railway) was to connect the airport, its pretty badly thought out. Maybe reducing the traffic to a snails pace will give it an edge.

The road into Edinburgh from the airport isn't affected by the new speed limits.

None of the main "arteries" into the city will change.

[Colr]

The road into Edinburgh from the airport isn't affected by the new speed limits.

None of the main "arteries" into the city will change.

That's good news. I won't need to take the tram, then.

[Hibby Bairn]

Is this move to make people use their crappy tram more?

I was up in Edinburgh at Christmas and the tram from the airport would have cost us about the same as a cab, taken 20 minutes longer and would have left us with a steep hill to climb with our luggage so we took a cab. Given that the initial rationale (over just putting a cord in to connect to the railway) was to connect the airport, its pretty badly thought out. Maybe reducing the traffic to a snails pace will give it an edge.

Always wondered why they didn't just construct a wee branch line to the airport from the existing rail line given it goes right past the end of the runway. And the tram line more or less runs parallel to the railway line!

[Colr]

Always wondered why they didn't just construct a wee branch line to the airport from the existing rail line given it goes right past the end of the runway. And the tram line more or less runs parallel to the railway line!

Because Network Rail knew it wouldn't pay for the costs.

[LaMotta]

The road into Edinburgh from the airport isn't affected by the new speed limits.

None of the main "arteries" into the city will change.

Not true unfortuneatly HR. Part of St John's road will be a 20 mph zone.

[Hibbyradge]

Not true unfortuneatly HR. Part of St John's road will be a 20 mph zone.

True.

The half mile or so between Drum Brae roundabout and Station Road will be 20 mph.

If anyone manages to average 20mph along that stretch, they'll have bettered the current typical speed which is about 5mph.

Compared to the theoretical 30mph which is allowed just now, the new limit will mean an increase in journey times of about 30 seconds, assuming all the lights are green and there are no lorries or vans parked outside the shops and pubs.

[lord bunberry]

True.

The half mile or so between Drum Brae roundabout and Station Road will be 20 mph.

If anyone manages to average 20mph along that stretch, they'll have bettered the current typical speed which is about 5mph.

Compared to the theoretical 30mph which is allowed just now, the new limit will mean an increase in journey times of about 30 seconds, assuming all the lights are green and there are no lorries or vans parked outside the shops and pubs.
That's true if you're driving to Haymarket, if you're going further(which most people are) then you're going to have your journey times increased by more than that.

[Hibbyradge]

That's true if you're driving to Haymarket, if you're going further(which most people are) then you're going to have your journey times increased by more than that.

Once you hit Haymarket, the average speed for journeys through Edinburgh must be well below 20 mph.

It takes at least 20 minutes to drive the 3 miles to Easter Road from there as it is. That's equivalent to 9 miles an hour. Even if you could do it in 15 minutes, that's only 12 mph.

At the mythical constant 30 mph, it should take 6.

[lord bunberry]

Once you hit Haymarket, the average speed for journeys through Edinburgh must be well below 20 mph.

It takes at least 20 minutes to drive the 3 miles to Easter Road from there as it is. That's equivalent to 9 miles an hour. Even if you could do it in 15 minutes, that's only 12 mph.

At the mythical constant 30 mph, it should take 6.

At certain times of the day your average speed won't get anywhere near 30mph, but for large parts of the day you can easily do 30mph. I've been monitoring my speed a lot since this was announced and you'd be surprised at how many times you can get up to 30mph even in the rush hour.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

I was driving through Causewayside last week which is a 20mph zone. Found it practically impossible to stick to the limit.

[Hibbyradge]

At certain times of the day your average speed won't get anywhere near 30mph, but for large parts of the day you can easily do 30mph. I've been monitoring my speed a lot since this was announced and you'd be surprised at how many times you can get up to 30mph even in the rush hour.

Yes, you might achieve 30 mph for parts of your journey. The total average speed of any given journey will be much lower.

If I sit at 20 mph, I'll reach the other side of Edinburgh at roughly the same time as you, even if you managed to hit 40 mph for stretches.

I've just looked up the journey time from Corstorphine to Portobello (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Portobello,+City+of+Edinburgh,+UK/Corstorphine,+City+of+Edinburgh,+UK/@55.9238405,-3.3388045,11z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x4887b9acf919ac87:0x44 4ddd92ee664247!2m2!1d-3.113962!2d55.952872!3m4!1m2!1d-3.1135471!2d55.9532363!3s0x4887b9b213dd74a5:0xde77 c2232d99bfb4!3m4!1m2!1d-3.1681722!2d55.9534819!3s0x4887b870e11e572b:0x7986 9a120bed04a!1m5!1m1!1s0x4887c67b779435fb:0x5c8bd63 977de56b7!2m2!1d-3.291449!2d55.943081!3e0). It tells me that it would take 27 minutes, without traffic. (Some chance!)

However, that's an 8 mile journey through the town, equivalent to less than 18 mph.

Journeys might be a bit more boring, but they won't take longer.

[lord bunberry]

Yes, you might achieve 30 mph for parts of your journey. The total average speed of any given journey will be much lower.

If I sit at 20 mph, I'll reach the other side of Edinburgh at roughly the same time as you, even if you managed to hit 40 mph for stretches.

I've just looked up the journey time from Corstorphine to Portobello (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Portobello,+City+of+Edinburgh,+UK/Corstorphine,+City+of+Edinburgh,+UK/@55.9238405,-3.3388045,11z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x4887b9acf919ac87:0x44 4ddd92ee664247!2m2!1d-3.113962!2d55.952872!3m4!1m2!1d-3.1135471!2d55.9532363!3s0x4887b9b213dd74a5:0xde77 c2232d99bfb4!3m4!1m2!1d-3.1681722!2d55.9534819!3s0x4887b870e11e572b:0x7986 9a120bed04a!1m5!1m1!1s0x4887c67b779435fb:0x5c8bd63 977de56b7!2m2!1d-3.291449!2d55.943081!3e0). It tells me that it would take 27 minutes, without traffic. (Some chance!)

However, that's an 8 mile journey through the town, equivalent to less than 18 mph.

Journeys might be a bit more boring, but they won't take longer.

But you wouldn't be able to sit at 20mph, you would still be held up at the same points as me, the only difference is during the times when there's no hold ups I would be traveling faster than you, so your journey would take longer.

[Hibbyradge]

But you wouldn't be able to sit at 20mph, you would still be held up at the same points as me, the only difference is during the times when there's no hold ups I would be traveling faster than you, so your journey would take longer.

While you were waiting at lights, I'd be pootling along catching up with you, bored out of my mind.

Corstorphine to Portobello through the town will take 30 minutes whether you manage 30 mph on some stretches or not. An average speed of 18 mph is just that, regardless of how fast you can get to for a few hundred yards at a time.

Tortoise and the hare.

But, as always happens in these discussions, we're merely rehearsing the same opinions over and over.

Maybe I'll race you one day to prove it, but until then, let's just agree to disagree. :thumbsup:

[snooky]

This in the Weeg
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/glasgow-drivers-face-24-hour-ban-from-all-bus-lanes.116309351

FFS, what's next? We've all to be tucked up in bed by 9pm?
Orwell was right.

[LaMotta]

True.

The half mile or so between Drum Brae roundabout and Station Road will be 20 mph.

If anyone manages to average 20mph along that stretch, they'll have bettered the current typical speed which is about 5mph.

Compared to the theoretical 30mph which is allowed just now, the new limit will mean an increase in journey times of about 30 seconds, assuming all the lights are green and there are no lorries or vans parked outside the shops and pubs.

Your previous post wasnt true then because as you have explained a portion of St John's Road, one of the main arteries from the airport into Edinburgh, will have its speed limit affected :)

I accept it wont affect it too much though.

As an aside, a major reason for that part of the road being congested more than it should be is because people dont drive in the greenways when they are allowed to.

[Hibbyradge]

Your previous post wasnt true then because as you have explained a portion of St John's Road, one of the main arteries from the airport into Edinburgh, will have its speed limit affected :)

I accept it wont affect it too much though.



Nit picker!




As an aside, a major reason for that part of the road being congested more than it should be is because people dont drive in the greenways when they are allowed to.

:agree: That does my nut in. Folk that sit in the outside lane while I'm going about my business, speeding away to my heart's content. I don't do it often, but sometimes I undertake and stay in the bus lane for as long as possible to make the point. It makes me a bad driver, I know.

Another thing that really annoys me is when people stay in the middle lane on motorways. WTF is that about?

I drive up and down the UK a lot for work and sometimes, when I'm feeling less tolerant, I flash my lights at them only to have them get angry at me! Eh?

We drive on the left in the UK. Move over!

[Hibrandenburg]

Nit picker!



:agree:

Another thing that really annoys me is when people stay in the middle lane on motorways. WTF is that about?

I drive up and down the UK a lot for work and sometimes, when I'm feeling less tolerant, I flash my lights at them only to have them get angry at me! Eh?

We drive on the left in the UK. Move over!

That does my head in over here, especially on the two lane Autobahns without speed limits. Zipping along at 130 and someone in front daydreaming in the outside lane or pulling out to overtake a truck half a mile before they need to.

My old flat was close to one of Berlin's main arteries where a 30km speed zone started and ended and the noise of cars and especially trucks and buses accelerating
up to 50 or braking used to drive me mad.

[LaMotta]

Nit picker!



:agree: That does my nut in. Folk that sit in the outside lane while I'm going about my business, speeding away to my heart's content. I don't do it often, but sometimes I undertake and stay in the bus lane for as long as possible to make the point. It makes me a bad driver, I know.

Another thing that really annoys me is when people stay in the middle lane on motorways. WTF is that about?

I drive up and down the UK a lot for work and sometimes, when I'm feeling less tolerant, I flash my lights at them only to have them get angry at me! Eh?

We drive on the left in the UK. Move over!

Peoples inability to use the greenways properly has resulted in the strange happening of the left hand lane practically turning into a fastlane across Edinburgh, with Taxi Drivers and other motorists who can read signs nipping up the inside, like you say you do sometimes. I dont think that makes you a bad driver, you are just using your noggin!!

Glasgow Road is the perfect example at times with drivers sitting in the right hand lane at 30 because they incorrectly think they arent allowed in the greenway and to compound it havent realised it is a 40.

[Hibbyradge]

Peoples inability to use the greenways properly has resulted in the strange happening of the left hand lane practically turning into a fastlane across Edinburgh, with Taxi Drivers and other motorists who can read signs nipping up the inside, like you say you do sometimes. I dont think that makes you a bad driver, you are just using your noggin!!

Glasgow Road is the perfect example at times with drivers sitting in the right hand lane at 30 because they incorrectly think they arent allowed in the greenway and to compound it havent realised it is a 40.

I know, it's so frustrating.

Unfortunately, undertaking does make me a bad driver. It's dangerous and illegal.

About 5 years ago, I undertook a line of traffic which had been stationary at the pedestrian crossing near the BBQ chippy. Unfortunately, in the line was a police car.

Blues and two's on, they pulled me over and proceeded to patronise and lectureme, threaten to put my car on an ASBO (yes really!) and were in the process of charging me when they realised that my brother was in the polis, so they extremely grudgingly let me off.

I'm very wary about doing it now, although I still sometimes do.

[lord bunberry]

Your previous post wasnt true then because as you have explained a portion of St John's Road, one of the main arteries from the airport into Edinburgh, will have its speed limit affected :)

I accept it wont affect it too much though.

As an aside, a major reason for that part of the road being congested more than it should be is because people dont drive in the greenways when they are allowed to.

It gets even worse when people try and turn left into a side street from the outside lane because they think they can't drive in the greenways.

[lord bunberry]

I know, it's so frustrating.

Unfortunately, undertaking does make me a bad driver. It's dangerous and illegal.

About 5 years ago, I undertook a line of traffic which had been stationary at the pedestrian crossing near the BBQ chippy. Unfortunately, in the line was a police car.

Blues and two's on, they pulled me over and proceeded to patronise and lectureme, threaten to put my car on an ASBO (yes really!) and were in the process of charging me when they realised that my brother was in the polis, so they extremely grudgingly let me off.

I'm very wary about doing it now, although I still sometimes do.

So what are you supposed to do in that situation? If I'm coming along the greenway and the traffic is stationary in the outside lane surely I'm not expected to wait when the lane ahead is empty

[Hibbyradge]

So what are you supposed to do in that situation? If I'm coming along the greenway and the traffic is stationary in the outside lane surely I'm not expected to wait when the lane ahead is empty

If the traffic is stationary, I'm fairly certain that it's legal to pass on the left.

In my case, I think the lights had changed and, although the queue was slow, it was moving.

Plus, I was in a brand new BMW 320d coupe...

[Gatecrasher]

If the traffic is stationary, I'm fairly certain that it's legal to pass on the left.

In my case, I think the lights had changed and, although the queue was slow, it was moving.

Plus, I was in a brand new BMW 320d coupe...


Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269

is it not the same on normal roads?


stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169

[lord bunberry]

If the traffic is stationary, I'm fairly certain that it's legal to pass on the left.

In my case, I think the lights had changed and, although the queue was slow, it was moving.

Plus, I was in a brand new BMW 320d coupe...

A BMW!!! I'd have thrown the book at you :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269

is it not the same on normal roads?

So it's basically ok as long as you don't change lane to undertake

[Hibbyradge]

A BMW!!! I'd have thrown the book at you :greengrin

:greengrin

They wanted to too!

[LaMotta]

It gets even worse when people try and turn left into a side street from the outside lane because they think they can't drive in the greenways.

:agree: Happens all the time at the David Llyod centre/Gyle park entrance on Glasgow Road

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269

is it not the same on normal roads?



https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/overtaking-162-to-169

That's interesting.

I think there would have to be a queue of traffic, not just a single car.

I think when cars are driving along past the zoo etc into town, if they're going at a reasonable speed, then passing on the left is still illegal.

In my case, I moved from the right lane to the left, so I definitely broke the rules.

[LaMotta]

I know, it's so frustrating.

Unfortunately, undertaking does make me a bad driver. It's dangerous and illegal.

About 5 years ago, I undertook a line of traffic which had been stationary at the pedestrian crossing near the BBQ chippy. Unfortunately, in the line was a police car.

Blues and two's on, they pulled me over and proceeded to patronise and lectureme, threaten to put my car on an ASBO (yes really!) and were in the process of charging me when they realised that my brother was in the polis, so they extremely grudgingly let me off.

I'm very wary about doing it now, although I still sometimes do.

I dont think what you did there was illegal, because undertaking itself is not illegal??
If you had been driving dangerously or driving without due care and attention then they may have had reason to charge you - but I refuse to believe you would behave in such a fashion!

Some policemen are of course never (capbable of admitting they are) wrong though, so whilst you were unlucky to be pulled over, its seems you ended up being lucky not to get the charge :greengrin

[LaMotta]

So it's basically ok as long as you don't change lane to undertake


But then what if you realised you were in the wrong lane and wanted to go left instead of right at the upcoming roundabout?

You HAVE to change lane to get in the left hand lane, but are you then expected to drive at the same speed as the slow moving traffic on your right if you now have a free space in front of you in the left hand lane?

[Hibbyradge]

I dont think what you did there was illegal, because undertaking itself is not illegal??
If you had been driving dangerously or driving without due care and attention then they may have had reason to charge you - but I refuse to believe you would behave in such a fashion!


You're right. I always thought it was illegal, but it was removed from the statutes in 1972!

I guess the offence of driving without due care and attention could be used although I reckon a decent solicitor could win that for you in court.




Some policemen are of course never (capbable of admitting they are) wrong though, so whilst you were unlucky to be pulled over, its seems you ended up being lucky not to get the charge :greengrin

You're right again. I won't be testing out this new theory on any police cars anytime soon!

[snooky]

Aye, hinging's too guid for them. :rules:

[Aldo]

I know, it's so frustrating. Unfortunately, undertaking does make me a bad driver. It's dangerous and illegal. About 5 years ago, I undertook a line of traffic which had been stationary at the pedestrian crossing near the BBQ chippy. Unfortunately, in the line was a police car. Blues and two's on, they pulled me over and proceeded to patronise and lectureme, threaten to put my car on an ASBO (yes really!) and were in the process of charging me when they realised that my brother was in the polis, so they extremely grudgingly let me off. I'm very wary about doing it now, although I still sometimes do.

Really.

Why would they be giving you an ASBO HR!! Some jumped up fool that doesn't know the conditions in respect of an ASBO.

Undertaking is not an ASBO offence.

[Hibbyradge]

Really.

Why would they be giving you an ASBO HR!! Some jumped up fool that doesn't know the conditions in respect of an ASBO.

Undertaking is not an ASBO offence.

They said that they could give my car the ASBO (or an equivalent maybe :dunno:).

They said if I breached it they could take the car off me.

[RyeSloan]

They said that they could give my car the ASBO (or an equivalent maybe :dunno:). They said if I breached it they could take the car off me.

That just sounds ludicrous....

[speedy_gonzales]

That just sounds ludicrous....
Car "ASBOs" are popular in Englandshire where groups of car modders gather and there can be an element of public nuisance. The driver and the car is targeted, so if your "mate" is driving your car because your on your last warning, the car can be confiscated by the law,,,,used to see it a lot on these Police interceptor & traffic cop programs,,,,Mr Radge would fit right in with that crowd, when he says he was stopped at Glasgow Road next to the BBQ he probably means he was doing do-nuts in the McDonalds car park with all the other 'boy' racers that congregate there! 😀

[Future17]

Car "ASBOs" are popular in Englandshire where groups of car modders gather and there can be an element of public nuisance. The driver and the car is targeted, so if your "mate" is driving your car because your on your last warning, the car can be confiscated by the law,,,,used to see it a lot on these Police interceptor & traffic cop programs,,,,Mr Radge would fit right in with that crowd, when he says he was stopped at Glasgow Road next to the BBQ he probably means he was doing do-nuts in the McDonalds car park with all the other 'boy' racers that congregate there! 😀

Do McDonalds even sell donuts?!?

:-)

[RyeSloan]

Car "ASBOs" are popular in Englandshire where groups of car modders gather and there can be an element of public nuisance. The driver and the car is targeted, so if your "mate" is driving your car because your on your last warning, the car can be confiscated by the law,,,,used to see it a lot on these Police interceptor & traffic cop programs,,,,Mr Radge would fit right in with that crowd, when he says he was stopped at Glasgow Road next to the BBQ he probably means he was doing do-nuts in the McDonalds car park with all the other 'boy' racers that congregate there! dde00

I still can't get my head around how you could give an asbo to an object...surely it has to be given to a person...how can a car be held responsible for anti social behaviour?!?

[speedy_gonzales]

I still can't get my head around how you could give an asbo to an object...surely it has to be given to a person...how can a car be held responsible for anti social behaviour?!?
It's a legal means of confiscating the car if there's a repeat offence of the drivers poor driving (generally aggressive or dangerous) within a set time limit (normally 12 months).
In Scotland it's covered by Section 126 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2004/8/section/126) (Issuance of ASBO) and Section 127 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2004/8/section/127) (Seizure/confiscation).
Basically, it can be quite a trivial matter that can instigate the action and there is very little right to appeal. A younger colleague of mines received one for not using his car horn in the prescribed manner, basically he (says) tooted his horn twice after 11pm in a residential area. Plod witnessed this and issued the asbo. The asbo is both on the driver and the car so it focussed his mind on his driving for the next year,,,,