Press Conference (Fan Ownership Proposal and Debt Halved)

[Mikey09]

Could someone, (CWG?!) please tell me in simple terms what all this actually means for the club? Been working all day and don't mind admitting I struggle understanding stuff like this...

[Col2]

Could someone, (CWG?!) please tell me in simple terms what all this actually means for the club? Been working all day and don't mind admitting I struggle understanding stuff like this...

Its difficult to see the key message behind all the detail and technical jargon but I think it means Leigh Griffiths is coming back.

[CropleyWasGod]

Could someone, (CWG?!) please tell me in simple terms what all this actually means for the club? Been working all day and don't mind admitting I struggle understanding stuff like this...

Until we know what the terms of the new loan are, we can't tell what it's worth to us in cash-flow. As supporters, that's what we really want to know....and the follow-up question, how much will the manager get?

As far as the share issue is concerned, as Cav says, anything we raise from that is a bonus. At most, it's a £2.5m bonus, which may be a one-off, or spread over a few years. That will become clearer over the next few weeks.

It also means that ER and EM are staying with the football club.

[Andy74]

Please note that I added two further tweets after you quoted my post.

Thanks. I wonder what in the detail would radically change whether they still carry on or not.

The interest rate and term they mention. It's of interest of course but are they still sticking to the belief that they think someone other than Hibs could benefit from this. That's the impression they give.

Never mind the 4.5 m hit, the security being cancelled, the offer of buying new shares direct that means dilution of value for the current owners.....they await the detail of the loan.

[Mikey09]

Its difficult to see the key message behind all the detail and technical jargon but I think it means Leigh Griffiths is coming back.


Hairy blighters sir, this is a turn up for the plus fours!! :greengrin

[Mikey09]

Until we know what the terms of the new loan are, we can't tell what it's worth to us in cash-flow. As supporters, that's what we really want to know....and the follow-up question, how much will the manager get?

As far as the share issue is concerned, as Cav says, anything we raise from that is a bonus. At most, it's a £2.5m bonus, which may be a one-off, or spread over a few years. That will become clearer over the next few weeks.

It also means that ER and EM are staying with the football club.


Thanks Crops. So the more shares we buy the better.... Simples.

[Deansy]

You mean the period when they won the Scottish Cup twice?

There are huge differences between what's happening to Hibs now and what Romanov did to HoMFC. Romanov threw other people's money at Hearts and was involved in other (dodgy) activities. It was also external demands that ultimately brought down his empire. We can start worrying about that happening to Hibs when the SFO start looking into Sir Tom Farmer's affairs. Even then we'd only have to find £5m rather than the £27m that HoMFC were in for (not to mention the further £40m that theyhad previously taken out of the pot).
G

Think what's meant is the period when they BROUGHT the Scottish Cup twice with other people's money and then bumped them all.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm not defending the conduct of BuyHibs but their existence was a symptom of the shambolic way the club has been run.
It's probably a coincidence the club have announced a similar scheme not long after or maybe they felt they had to respond. We'll never know.

So what you are basically saying is the club **** itself because someone told a few lies, and crumbled to their every demand and more.

That sounds about right?

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks Crops. So the more shares we buy the better.... Simples.

In simple terms, aye.... gie's yer money. :greengrin

[PapillonVert]

I was vague on purpose :greengrin

Seriously, though, it could be to take up the slack on things like that, or to cover losses in the bad times, or even the playing budget......:cb

Can't see any bad side to that bit at all.

I know. Was being a bit tongue-in-cheek!

Overall, very encouraged by developments.

[Mikey09]

In simple terms, aye.... gie's yer money. :greengrin


Ok... Off to ask the wife for some cash... Dinnae hawd yer breath!!! :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

So what you are basically saying is the club **** itself because someone told a few lies, and crumbled to their every demand and more.

That sounds about right?

You need to read my post again. I said it's probably a coincidence.

[brog]

I'm adding 5m which is being consolidated to now be paid to the holding company to 4.5m which they are swapping for shares.

That's 9.5m which is currently due. That's high compared to recent guesses of our total debt. It's all being accounted for in the arrangements with the holding company who are basically writing off 4.5m then being paid 5m at some stages.
The 9.5 m total doesn't suggest a big reduction in what the bank were due.

You originally said £9.5m must have been handed over, now you say £9.5 is currently due, ie £9.5m was/is our present debt. I agree the latter but these are very different statements.

[blackpoolhibs]

You need to read my post again. I said it's probably a coincidence.

With the added bit on the end that we will never know, well i do.

[Kato]

IMHO Andy is correct !!
Think you will find if you care to look back over the past few years that STF has had something similar to this in mind for long enough ,
BuyHibs et al ]perhaps [/B] helped to speed it up

I think you're right the possibility exists that the groups who spoke out sped the process up and maybe added to what was being offered. So I'm thankful to that group of fans for having the balls to speak out. Not everyone has the same sense of propriety, football is tribal and sections will be more tribal and less business minded than others.



but give some credit to STF - he is a very astute business man a fact I know to be true having " dealt" with him since he and his father started their tyre business many years ago

Farmer is to be congratulated on the move and he's been, and is being, responsible for bringing the club long term security. If you're taking umbrage because the pressure groups besmirched his name it's a bit "sticks and stones" to be pissing you're pants about. Hibernian is the most important thing. If someone was called bad names or if someone else stuck their neck out even though certain sections of the support weren't shy in calling them names - yet all that resulted in helping move the club out of it's stupor then, who cares. Let's move and try and unite all the fans. That's required to raise the club as well.

[mjhibby]

Great news indeed. Lest we forget hertz have a debt of £3.3m and others like duty and killie have done exactly as stf has done. Reduced the debt and the remaining debt owed to shareholders and not the bank. The greatest strides the club have made is from Alan Stubbs and his backroom staff and joemcbride and Eddie may at East mains. It seems at last that the manager and the East mains staff are doing their jobs with no interference and the results are there to see. To see the likes of Robertson and Craig making the runs they did for their goals shows how much things have improved at er. Once foster,mcgeogh and farid are back we will have a formidable team. Just another striker needed. Anybody any ideas who we might be after.:wink:

[ancient hibee]

I think you're right the possibility exists that the groups who spoke out sped the process up and maybe added to what was being offered. So I'm thankful to that group of fans for having the balls to speak out. Not everyone has the same sense of propriety, football is tribal and sections will be more tribal and less business minded than others.




Farmer is to be congratulated on the move and he's been, and is being, responsible for bringing the club long term security. If you're taking umbrage because the pressure groups besmirched his name it's a bit "sticks and stones" to be pissing you're pants about. Hibernian is the most important thing. If someone was called bad names or if someone else stuck their neck out even though certain sections of the support weren't shy in calling them names - yet all that resulted in helping move the club out of it's stupor then, who cares. Let's move and try and unite all the fans. That's required to raise the club as well.

The pressure groups besmirched themselves by telling lies to try and influence fellow supporters.That is unforgivable in my eyes.

[Iain G]

Great news indeed. Lest we forget hertz have a debt of £3.3m and others like duty and killie have done exactly as stf has done. Reduced the debt and the remaining debt owed to shareholders and not the bank. The greatest strides the club have made is from Alan Stubbs and his backroom staff and joemcbride and Eddie may at East mains. It seems at last that the manager and the East mains staff are doing their jobs with no interference and the results are there to see. To see the likes of Robertson and Craig making the runs they did for their goals shows how much things have improved at er. Once foster,mcgeogh and farid are back we will have a formidable team. Just another striker needed. Anybody any ideas who we might be after.:wink:

Whats Deek up to?! ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Great news indeed. Lest we forget hertz have a debt of £3.3m and others like duty and killie have done exactly as stf has done. Reduced the debt and the remaining debt owed to shareholders and not the bank. The greatest strides the club have made is from Alan Stubbs and his backroom staff and joemcbride and Eddie may at East mains. It seems at last that the manager and the East mains staff are doing their jobs with no interference and the results are there to see. To see the likes of Robertson and Craig making the runs they did for their goals shows how much things have improved at er. Once foster,mcgeogh and farid are back we will have a formidable team. Just another striker needed. Anybody any ideas who we might be after.:wink:

Think it's £4.6m.

[Kato]

The pressure groups besmirched themselves by telling lies to try and influence fellow supporters.That is unforgivable in my eyes.

That's your opinion and obviously you are entitled to it but I hope the rest of the support can see a bit further than that.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's your opinion and obviously you are entitled to it but I hope the rest of the support can see a bit further than that.

HOH were quite gracious in their comments today, and that's to their credit. However, IMO they (and Hibileaks) should now go one step further and acknowledge the lies and defamation that they put about. That would bring them the respect of many, me included.

[mutley]

Any speculation on the cost of the shares? And is their a limit?

[bingo70]

Think it's £4.6m.

They've still got a new main stand to build as well which is hugely significant when comparing finances.

[Eyrie]

Worth noting that as soon as we do hold 51% of the shares then as fans we will hold enough votes to decide who the directors are (or aren't) .... :wink:

Note - yes, I'm aware it means getting everyone to agree but if the thought encourages a faster take up then it has to be helpful.

[California-Hibs]

This is a fantastic proposal and one we should grab with both hands! I can't wait until the Share information is released and I can proudly own part of the club!

What a fantastic few days it's been to be a hibee! Infact...it's ALWAYS fantastic to be a Hibee!! :thumbsup:

[Spike Mandela]

It also means that ER and EM are staying with the football club.

The bank debt was secured against Easter Road and East Mains, now it isn't. Does that mean that the debt to the holding company (ie Sir Tom and Rod Petrie)is secured against these assets. What happens if the club defaults in it's mortgage payments to the holding company?

[CropleyWasGod]

The bank debt was secured against Easter Road and East Mains, now it isn't. Does that mean that the debt to the holding company (ie Sir Tom and Rod Petrie)is secured against these assets. What happens if the club defaults in it's mortgage payments to the holding company?

The £5m debt is stated as being repayable "on favourable terms". Just what that means has still to be established. IMO, the previous loans were on "****-hot" terms, so I'm not sure if "favourable" is a step down. :greengrin

As for security, it wouldn't be a surprise if HFCH took them over. IMO, that wouldn't be a major issue. However, it's worth asking the question.

[Bostonhibby]

HOH were quite gracious in their comments today, and that's to their credit. However, IMO they (and Hibileaks) should now go one step further and acknowledge the lies and defamation that they put about. That would bring them the respect of many, me included.

:agree: This would close that particular chapter, there's quite a bit to look forward to since at the moment I cant really pick a hole in the STF proposal which has obviously been in the pipeline for a while and looks well thought out, its not a million miles from what I thought would be the best outcome i.e a wider distribution of potentially influential shareholding to fans with cash generated being used on the footballing side.

Theres still a bit of detail to be addressed and I cant see anything at the moment that hasn't been covered by others above - on the face of it it does look like STF and even RP are not taking anything out of this but I will feel a lot happier when I see the interest rate charged on the mortgage and what the mortgagor / holding company do with it.

A good day for Hibs that's for sure, and not a charity, council, taxpayer or small business robbed - it's even legal - take note watching yams.

[blackpoolhibs]

That's your opinion and obviously you are entitled to it but I hope the rest of the support can see a bit further than that.

Which part or even parts of any of their statements were true? :confused:

[Kato]

HOH were quite gracious in their comments today, and that's to their credit. However, IMO they (and Hibileaks) should now go one step further and acknowledge the lies and defamation that they put about. That would bring them the respect of many, me included.

That's a fair opinion.

[Kato]

Which part or even parts of any of their statements were true? :confused:

I don't care. I hardly read anything of what they were saying and just recognised it as some guys doing some agitprop. Sometimes you need an irritant to move things along and make it clear that someone is paying attention rather than hanging around waiting.

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't care. I hardly read anything of what they were saying and just recognised it as some guys doing some agitprop. Sometimes you need an irritant to move things along and make it clear that someone is paying attention rather than hanging around waiting.

Nah, i'm not having that. Their lies were embarrassing and if anyone thinks the club IE STF shat it and buckled to their words then they are daft.

In fact i'd say more folk were swayed back towards STF as an owner than any of buyhibs/hibileaks or whatever other jokers who tried to influence supporters into their way of thinking.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't care. I hardly read anything of what they were saying and just recognised it as some guys doing some agitprop. Sometimes you need an irritant to move things along and make it clear that someone is paying attention rather than hanging around waiting.

Can see your point, but many did care about some of the Buyhibs propositions and many cared enough to push them on the asset stripping allegation when they cited it. The swerving of questions about it on here then subsequent disappearance off the thread without an answer killed them from that day forward as far as many were concerned.

I can't blame some Hibbies for still wondering about the motives of other Hibbies who were apparently comfortable floating this sort of allegation amongst fellow fans in the way it was - now been exposed for what it was by the look of it.

[Brightside]

I don't care. I hardly read anything of what they were saying and just recognised it as some guys doing some agitprop. Sometimes you need an irritant to move things along and make it clear that someone is paying attention rather than hanging around waiting.
People spreading lies about the board and the club is more than just an irritant...but I'm sure they enjoyed their 15 mins of fame.

[mjhibby]

one thing that puzzles me is that looking at figures from september last year we were said to have a net debt then of 5.5m. Not sure how we can then suddenly 15 months later be looking at debts of 9m. I think the devil is in the detail and the 9m must be the total debt not including cash reserves. It looks like then that to me stf probably got round about 2m reduction in repayment to the bank of debt and we now are left with total debt of 4.6m. Only my take on it but as with all financial figures really hard to decipher.

[Ozyhibby]

People spreading lies about the board and the club is more than just an irritant...but I'm sure they enjoyed their 15 mins of fame.

The only thing I have said about the board is that they have failed. Am I wrong?

[Kato]

Nah, i'm not having that. Their lies were embarrassing and if anyone thinks the club IE STF shat it and buckled to their words then they are daft.

In fact i'd say more folk were swayed back towards STF as an owner than any of buyhibs/hibileaks or whatever other jokers who tried to influence supporters into their way of thinking.

So if it galvanises the club that way then all good too.

[Turkish Green]

:agree: This would close that particular chapter, there's quite a bit to look forward to since at the moment I cant really pick a hole in the STF proposal which has obviously been in the pipeline for a while and looks well thought out, its not a million miles from what I thought would be the best outcome i.e a wider distribution of potentially influential shareholding to fans with cash generated being used on the footballing side.

What worries me about fan ownership is once the first tranche of money has been spent on the footballing side, where does future monies for the footballing side come from? Is it intended that the club lives within its means i.e. from ticket sales, or are we still looking for investment from a Daddy Warbucks?

This new structuring does not make the club debt free, but it does appear to put our finances on a far better footing.

[grunt]

Not sure if this has been posted

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-football/9624790/hibernian-announce-plans-for-fan-ownership

[Brightside]

The only thing I have said about the board is that they have failed. Am I wrong?

Wasn't talking about you Ozy... Hibileaks, HoH, BuyHibs.

[Lucius Apuleius]

What worries me about fan ownership is once the first tranche of money has been spent on the footballing side, where does future monies for the footballing side come from? Is it intended that the club lives within its means i.e. from ticket sales, or are we still looking for investment from a Daddy Warbucks?

This new structuring does not make the club debt free, but it does appear to put our finances on a far better footing.

Live within our means I hope, as every team should do.

Going back to the motives behind this happening, I personally think anyone who thinks the board were pushed into this by HOH or BuyHibs are so wrong. This has been in the pipeline since before we were relegated in my opinion.

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure if this has been posted

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-football/9624790/hibernian-announce-plans-for-fan-ownership

Was that Rod "The Third Man" Petrie's shadow in the glass cabinet at 2 minutes?

I bet he did that deliberately! :hilarious

[jdships]

People spreading lies about the board and the club is more than just an irritant...but I'm sure they enjoyed their 15 mins of fame.

:agree::thumbsup:

[brog]

one thing that puzzles me is that looking at figures from september last year we were said to have a net debt then of 5.5m. Not sure how we can then suddenly 15 months later be looking at debts of 9m. I think the devil is in the detail and the 9m must be the total debt not including cash reserves. It looks like then that to me stf probably got round about 2m reduction in repayment to the bank of debt and we now are left with total debt of 4.6m. Only my take on it but as with all financial figures really hard to decipher.

You're correct in drawing the distinction between net debt & total debt. Our last a/c's showed 3 mortgages due totalling £6.3m & amount due to parent company of £1.8m giving £8.1m in total. I did have difficulty in understanding the parent company loan & posted so a while back. IIRC CWG & Cav provided some enlightenment. FWIW I think you're in the ball park but we may never know full detail of the settlement with the bank.

[McD]

Live within our means I hope, as every team should do.

Going back to the motives behind this happening, I personally think anyone who thinks the board were pushed into this by HOH or BuyHibs are so wrong. This has been in the pipeline since before we were relegated in my opinion.

In the sky sports video posted above, LD stated that these plans have been ongoing for most of 2014, and were in existence when she joined the club.

puts paid to any doubt that buyhibs/HOH etc had any impact, other than putting the boot into STF in ways that have been shown to not only be total crap, were the complete opposite of what has now come out.

[nonshinyfinish]

What worries me about fan ownership is once the first tranche of money has been spent on the footballing side, where does future monies for the footballing side come from? Is it intended that the club lives within its means i.e. from ticket sales, or are we still looking for investment from a Daddy Warbucks?

This new structuring does not make the club debt free, but it does appear to put our finances on a far better footing.

Season tickets mostly, same as it always has.

As has been said a couple of times already, any money from the share issue is a bonus. It's not meant to be regular income.

[GreenPJ]

Not sure if this has been posted

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/scottish-football/9624790/hibernian-announce-plans-for-fan-ownership

Am not sure why there wouldn't be some benefit, even if just relatively small for this transfer window if the debt with the bank has been concluded and assuming the cashflow situation is a bit better for it.

[Caversham Green]

one thing that puzzles me is that looking at figures from september last year we were said to have a net debt then of 5.5m. Not sure how we can then suddenly 15 months later be looking at debts of 9m. I think the devil is in the detail and the 9m must be the total debt not including cash reserves. It looks like then that to me stf probably got round about 2m reduction in repayment to the bank of debt and we now are left with total debt of 4.6m. Only my take on it but as with all financial figures really hard to decipher.

See Post#95 on this thread.

[blackpoolhibs]

So if it galvanises the club that way then all good too.


In what way did any of it galvanise the club, bearing in mind how you have said you did not read much of the lies and complete bollox that was spouted by some of these groups?

[Hibbyradge]

Am not sure why there wouldn't be some benefit, even if just relatively small for this transfer window if the debt with the bank has been concluded and assuming the cashflow situation is a bit better for it.

The cashflow might be about a week better for it.

[Caversham Green]

The bank debt was secured against Easter Road and East Mains, now it isn't. Does that mean that the debt to the holding company (ie Sir Tom and Rod Petrie)is secured against these assets. What happens if the club defaults in it's mortgage payments to the holding company?

If the club was to default on repayments to the holding company it might force an administration or sale of the assets, but it would be far more likely to renegotiate the loan since the club is its only activity.

If the club had defaulted on the loans from the bank they would have forced administration or sale of the assets.

[GreenPJ]

Apart from the fact that there is still a lot of devil in the detail I do wonder as to why the announcement has been made now - in advance of taking to the AGM, especially as Leann is stipulating it won't have any benefit on the upcoming transfer window.

[Caversham Green]

Apart from the fact that there is still a lot of devil in the detail I do wonder as to why the announcement has been made now - in advance of taking to the AGM, especially as Leann is stipulating it won't have any benefit on the upcoming transfer window.

I think it may be because a very bad set of accounts is due out shortly and this shows that they've taken action to improve things.

[Ozyhibby]

In the sky sports video posted above, LD stated that these plans have been ongoing for most of 2014, and were in existence when she joined the club.

puts paid to any doubt that buyhibs/HOH etc had any impact, other than putting the boot into STF in ways that have been shown to not only be total crap, were the complete opposite of what has now come out.

Of course, after twenty years of nothing, as soon as some fans think it would be a good idea for fan ownership, so do the club. Total coincidence.

[Hibbyradge]

Of course, after twenty years of nothing, as soon as some fans think it would be a good idea for fan ownership, so do the club. Total coincidence.

Are you suggesting that Leanne Dempster is lying in that video?

[Peevemor]

Of course, after twenty years of nothing, as soon as some fans think it would be a good idea for fan ownership, so do the club. Total coincidence.

I suppose it's also a coincidence that the club head hunted Leeann Dempster who happens to have experience of fan ownership? And the club's official "winds of change" statement - coincidence too?

[matty_f]

Of course, after twenty years of nothing, as soon as some fans think it would be a good idea for fan ownership, so do the club. Total coincidence.

I think you should stop digging now, it's embarrassing.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose it's also a coincidence that the club head hunted Leeann Dempster who happens to have experience of fan ownership? And the club's official "winds of change" statement - coincidence too?

It's up to you to make the call.

[Ozyhibby]

I think you should stop digging now, it's embarrassing.

;-(

[schinkenotto]

When the news came out,I posted the following on the Hands on Hibs Facebook page:-"Time to stop the malicious statements about STF perhaps?"

I received the following reply from Holyrood Boxing Gym:-"Malicious and true statements will be stopped Mr Trumpet,when the details are clear,there's always one...today it's you."

As I was typing this,I received a further comment to the effect that the poster would support the proposal,"when it is apparent that this is for the benefit of HIBERNIAN and not STF".

[blackpoolhibs]

When the news came out,I posted the following on the Hands on Hibs Facebook page:-"Time to stop the malicious statements about STF perhaps?"

I received the following reply from Holyrood Boxing Gym:-"Malicious and true statements will be stopped Mr Trumpet,when the details are clear,there's always one...today it's you."

As I was typing this,I received a further comment to the effect that the poster would support the proposal,"when it is apparent that this is for the benefit of HIBERNIAN and not STF".

Lets hope this all falls through and these people manage to buy the club. :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

When the news came out,I posted the following on the Hands on Hibs Facebook page:-"Time to stop the malicious statements about STF perhaps?"

I received the following reply from Holyrood Boxing Gym:-"Malicious and true statements will be stopped Mr Trumpet,when the details are clear,there's always one...today it's you."

As I was typing this,I received a further comment to the effect that the poster would support the proposal,"when it is apparent that this is for the benefit of HIBERNIAN and not STF".
Well,at least they're consistent !

[weecounty hibby]

One thing looks pretty clear and that is that pretty much everyone is behind this plan but the Buyhibs/HoH/ForeverHibernian (I got confused who was who) were incredibly divisive and hopefully they will now just disappear. Or even better get their mystery investors to still put up the cash they promised

[Ozyhibby]

When the news came out,I posted the following on the Hands on Hibs Facebook page:-"Time to stop the malicious statements about STF perhaps?"

I received the following reply from Holyrood Boxing Gym:-"Malicious and true statements will be stopped Mr Trumpet,when the details are clear,there's always one...today it's you."

As I was typing this,I received a further comment to the effect that the poster would support the proposal,"when it is apparent that this is for the benefit of HIBERNIAN and not STF".

I'm surprised you took HoH seriously enough to spend some time on their Facebook page. More fool you. :-(

[Kaff]

One thing looks pretty clear and that is that pretty much everyone is behind this plan but the Buyhibs/HoH/ForeverHibernian (I got confused who was who) were incredibly divisive and hopefully they will now just disappear. Or even better get their mystery investors to still put up the cash they promised

What were the figures Global Hibby first put forward for fan ownership? It was a large cash sum followed by monthly payments iirc.
This would be perfect for him, put in his cash investment (I'm sure it was as high as £1m?) as a vehicle to purchase shares as 'Hibsfan' and we would have a pot where people could put in as much or as little as they could afford, get the 51% and we are what he wanted - a fan owned club.
I could be wrong but originally he didnt want to be the main man but wanted others to match him collectively so we could be fan owned. Maybe time for many to walk the walk?

[Peevemor]

It's up to you to make the call.

No, I'm asking you.

[Ozyhibby]

No, I'm asking you.

About what? I like the idea.

[Hibbyradge]

About what? I like the idea.

Put down the Stella Artois.

Stop calling Leann Dempster a liar.

Go to bed.

Wake up a better person. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Put down the Stella Artois.

Stop calling Leann Dempster a liar.

Go to bed.

Wake up a better person. :wink:

Excuse me? Where did I call anyone a liar?
Please try not to be so offensive.

[Peevemor]

About what? I like the idea.

So you don't want to answer then. Funny that. :coffee:

[Hibbyradge]

Excuse me? Where did I call anyone a liar?
Please try not to be so offensive.

:hilarious

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296440-Questions-For-Hibs&p=4259450&viewfull=1#post4259450

[Ozyhibby]

So you don't want to answer then. Funny that. :coffee:

I've been listening to 'wind of change' speeches from Rod Petrie for a long time now.

[Peevemor]

I've been listening to 'wind of change' speeches from Rod Petrie for a long time now.

Really? As far as I know he's only made the one.

Are you going to answer my questions?

[schinkenotto]

I'm surprised you took HoH seriously enough to spend some time on their Facebook page. More fool you. :-(
You're probably right!I've never taken them seriously,but have been incensed at some of stuff they've been coming up with,which served no useful pupose,other than be divisive.

[jacomo]

I've been listening to 'wind of change' speeches from Rod Petrie for a long time now.

Typically ambiguous stuff from Petrie, you're right. And the kind of stuff we all got tired of, which is partly why he needs to go.

But it does seem like LD was hired to help make this transition happen. I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion, really.

I'm interested to see more detail but this is a huge move from the club. It also vindicates those who trust in STF and rubbishes those rumours about asset stripping etc.

[Eyrie]

Very clear from Dempster's interview that this process was underway when she was recruited and indeed her experience of working towards fan ownership at Motherwell may have been a major factor in her getting the job. There is no way that today's announcement is a response to the various pressure groups or indeed has had its timescale affected by them. The club has kept its head down, worked on the plans and waited until it is satisfied that it has a robust and complete proposal before making anything public.


Lets hope this all falls through and these people manage to buy the club. :greengrin
They only need £2.5m.


What were the figures Global Hibby first put forward for fan ownership? It was a large cash sum followed by monthly payments iirc.
This would be perfect for him, put in his cash investment (I'm sure it was as high as £1m?) as a vehicle to purchase shares as 'Hibsfan' and we would have a pot where people could put in as much or as little as they could afford, get the 51% and we are what he wanted - a fan owned club.
I could be wrong but originally he didnt want to be the main man but wanted others to match him collectively so we could be fan owned. Maybe time for many to walk the walk?
Think it was £1m up front and £20k per month.

[Kaff]

Very clear from Dempster's interview that this process was underway when she was recruited and indeed her experience of working towards fan ownership at Motherwell may have been a major factor in her getting the job. There is no way that today's announcement is a response to the various pressure groups or indeed has had its timescale affected by them. The club has kept its head down, worked on the plans and waited until it is satisfied that it has a robust and complete proposal before making anything public.





Think it was £1m up front and £20k per month.

Thanks, i thought the figures were close to that.
Over one year thats half what is required, is it an option that Global Hibby set up a fund for small regular contributors to pay into but this fund has purchased 25% of the club more or less immediately thus releasing money for AS asap, obviously be for summer rather than this window but with the Scott Allan situation and others it could be almost essential?

[Ozyhibby]

Typically ambiguous stuff from Petrie, you're right. And the kind of stuff we all got tired of, which is partly why he needs to go.

But it does seem like LD was hired to help make this transition happen. I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion, really.

I'm interested to see more detail but this is a huge move from the club. It also vindicates those who trust in STF and rubbishes those rumours about asset stripping etc.

Agree 100%

[PatHead]

Interview with Petrie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/30629142

[Ozyhibby]

:hilarious

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?296440-Questions-For-Hibs&p=4259450&viewfull=1#post4259450

I'm struggling to see where I called anyone a liar in your link? Are you hoping nobody clicks it?

[Juice-Terry]

I know there are some quite 'active' folk who think this is all a big con. Time will tell but it sounds pretty good to me.

[lucky]

I know there are some quite 'active' folk who think this is all a big con. Time will tell but it sounds pretty good to me.

What do you mean by "active folk" I'm struggling to see how this is a con and not good for the football club

[lucky]

How can a holding company give a mortgage out? I thought you had been registered to do that? Is it not more likely to be a secured loan?

[greenlex]

How can a holding company give a mortgage out? I thought you had been registered to do that? Is it not more likely to be a secured loan?

Yup which is effectively a mortgage.

[bigwheel]

What do you mean by "active folk" I'm struggling to see how this is a con and not good for the football club

I suspect he is referring to a random (without any back up) tweet from ego maniac Simon Pia...he has been one of the main stirrers prompting HoH and Buy Hibs to believe there was some game afoot to a) not give fans ownership and b) separate the ground and academy from the football club....

Now that he has been found out to be wrong in all counts...he is using the term con, about the price, without any substance - he wants the club to be given away for free ....wouldn't we all......just emotional nonsense....he seem to have an almost pathological dislike of STF.....

[blackpoolhibs]

I personally wish the club had been run MUCH better over the years from TOP to bottom. I think its clear having an absent owner has not worked, i also think having a stubborn owner who backed Rod Petrie to the hilt has also been clearly wrong for way too long.

I believe we find ourself in the championship as a direct result of this poor leadership. We can all see that STF has thrown money at the club over the years, but it seems to me its always been to avert a problem rather than when i feel we needed the money at the start of a season before the problems occurred.

Yesterdays news is good news, and STF appears to have taken another hit. Lets not forget the past though we are in the championship under his ownership once again, the 2nd time under his ownership.

The time is right for him to leave, and he has made another grand gesture that will cost him more money. For us to go forward again in my opinion, we need to go in another direction without the baggage of the past.

[EH54]

Sounds to me this is great news for our club :thumbsup:

[Kato]

In what way did any of it galvanise the club, bearing in mind how you have said you did not read much of the lies and complete bollox that was spouted by some of these groups?

It galvanises the club in that most people are now excited by the offer on the table, including BuyHibs/Hibileaks.

[blackpoolhibs]

It galvanises the club in that most people are now excited by the offer on the table, including BuyHibs/Hibileaks.

No it didn't, it had nothing to do with it, unless you think STF shat himself with all these lies and rushed in this new proposal because of what they were saying by doing the opposite?

[green day]

I suspect he is referring to a random (without any back up) tweet from ego maniac Simon Pia...he has been one of the main stirrers prompting HoH and Buy Hibs to believe there was some game afoot to a) not give fans ownership and b) separate the ground and academy from the football club....

Now that he has been found out to be wrong in all counts...he is using the term con, about the price, without any substance - he wants the club to be given away for free ....wouldn't we all......just emotional nonsense....he seem to have an almost pathological dislike of STF.....

Simon Pia is a tit.

A hibby, but a tit nonetheless.

Can't take it that his "truths" have been exposed.

[Dashing Bob S]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

[GreenLake]

Would the shares be floated on a stock market?

Will there be a "Greenshoe" and who gets it? :greengrin

[Kato]

No it didn't, it had nothing to do with it, unless you think STF shat himself with all these lies and rushed in this new proposal because of what they were saying by doing the opposite?

No I don't think that at all and I don't you quite understand what I'm saying.

[marinello59]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

:top marks

[Col2]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

Superb summary - agree 100%.

The past doesn't matter (to a large extent) - we must look forward.

I woke up this morning and for the first time in many years I felt Hibernian were one. Supporters, management team, players and board ALL moving forward together. Early days but a gigantic step forward.

[Ozyhibby]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

A fine post. With Petrie gone, and he surely will be once the fans own 51% of the shares and his own holding drops below 5%, then I think we will be able to move forward again.
In Leeann Dempster I think we have the right person to take the club forward.

[CropleyWasGod]

A fine post. With Petrie gone, and he surely will be once the fans own 51% of the shares and his own holding drops below 5%, then I think we will be able to move forward again.
In Leeann Dempster I think we have the right person to take the club forward.

He doesn't have any holding.

In any case, his shareholding would be irrelevant when it comes to whether or not the majority of the shareholders want him on the Board.

[brog]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

:not worth

DBS, thank you!! I've had a similar, but far less eloquent post in my head all morning! I've been posting for weeks that we all need to get together & move on. This initiative, subject to proper scrutiny, finally gives us that opportunity!

[Ozyhibby]

He doesn't have any holding.

In any case, his shareholding would be irrelevant when it comes to whether or not the majority of the shareholders want him on the Board.

Correct, and I don't think it will get as far as a vote. I think he will step down soon.

[hibbyfaelibby]

Simon Pia is a tit.

A hibby, but a tit nonetheless.

Can't take it that his "truths" have been exposed.

Not only a tit but has form of being a pathalogical tit as an ex Labour Party spin doctor tit.

[CropleyWasGod]

Correct, and I don't think it will get as far as a vote. I think he will step down soon.

I know it's correct, that's why I posted it, in direct response to your own incorrect posting. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

He doesn't have any holding.

In any case, his shareholding would be irrelevant when it comes to whether or not the majority of the shareholders want him on the Board.

Quick question.
If the fans take up the full 51%, what is the make up of the other 49%? Is it all the holding company that STF and Petrie own?

[CropleyWasGod]

Quick question.
If the fans take up the full 51%, what is the make up of the other 49%? Is it all the holding company that STF and Petrie own?

As things stand just now, yes.

However, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the holding company selling its shares in the meantime. FWIW, I don't expect the fans to get near 51% for some time yet, if at all.

[Ozyhibby]

I know it's correct, that's why I posted it, in direct response to your own incorrect posting. :wink:

I knew my post was incorrect when I posted it but could not find the words to articulate the difference between him owning part of the holding company and not actually Hibs.
And I knew you would come along and put people right anyway. :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

I knew my post was incorrect when I posted it but could not find the words to articulate the difference between him owning part of the holding company and not actually Hibs.
And I knew you would come along and put people right anyway. :-)

Pedantry roolz. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

As things stand just now, yes.

However, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the holding company selling its shares in the meantime. FWIW, I don't expect the fans to get near 51% for some time yet, if at all.

I actually think we might.
When we had a share issue in the 80's, did we not raise nearly £2m? I'm sure it was close to that. If it's marketed properly then I think it's possible.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not only a tit but has form of being a pathalogical tit as an ex Labour Party spin doctor tit.

He's been challenged on his statement, but hasn't replied.

If he thinks it's a con, he's entitled to say why. I'm intrigued :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

I actually think we might.
When we had a share issue in the 80's, did we not raise nearly £2m? I'm sure it was close to that. If it's marketed properly then I think it's possible.

Can't remember the details, but I don't think that was all down to the supporters.

I agree about the marketing, though, and that is key. As Cav and others have said, it has to be underlined that every £1 is a bonus. Also, the club have to be clear what that £1 is being spent on. If they ring-fence it for the playing budget, they will get a higher take-up.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Hibs should bring out a Gold season ticket that is £100 more expensive which gives you £120 worth of free shares. It will allow people to put it on the payment plan without breaking any rules.

[Eyrie]

I think Hibs should bring out a Gold season ticket that is £100 more expensive which gives you £120 worth of free shares. It will allow people to put it on the payment plan without breaking any rules.

That would be a double loss to the club, since it would have to finance the interest on the £100 whilst losing out on the extra £20 for shares.

The press release indicates that our 51% can be built up over time, so there is nothing to stop someone putting aside £5 per week and then buying £250 of shares at the end of a year. If they need the money for something more important during that time then they shouldn't be buying shares with it. Let's be honest - whilst these are shares with voting rights and a potential resale value, anyone subscribing should regard their "investment" as a donation to the club to be written off immediately.

[ahibby]

It's wonderful that our debt has been halved. I wonder how much fans can realistically raise? It's said that if we raise £2.5 million we have 51% of the club. Will we realistically have more than 10,000 investors. I suppose if there are 10,000 each willing to invest £250 it's doable but will it be that or fewer investing more? I wonder how that will pan out. It's great that whatever is raised from the fans will go to the club, presumably for players. Sounds to me like a Christmas pressie from STF. It's strange though that we can have 51% of £25 million worth of assets for £2.5 million, what's the catch, is there one?

[Cropley10]

I love the way that people assume they are privy to the decision-making processes in Tom Farmer's head. Here are two scenario's regarding BuyHibs/HandsOnHibs/Hibileaks potential influence.

1. Farmer consults Petrie and Dempster about the fans survey, decides everybody wants to move to fan ownership and that this is a good idea. Decides to write off 5 mill worth of bank debt, as all multi-millionaire businessmen do, that's how they achieve that status. Has heard about those pesky groups, but is not influenced at all by them, in fact, if anything their truculence made him drag his feet a little on this issue.

2. Farmer plodding along in a dreamworld, assuming that everything is okay. Then those threatening groups come along making all sorts of bizarre allegations, Farmer craps it and decides he has to act. Get's Petrie and Dempster to quickly come up with a scheme for fan ownership. Fears of being nutted on George Street make him part with 5 million quid to write off bank debt and make a statement about keeping the stadium and training ground as part of the club.

Only muppets believe either of those scenarios.

I think in reality the groups (even the extreme ones) were indicative of a lot of fan anger and resentment that has been building up around Hibs and the board over the last seven years. If you doubt that, read some of the posts on here over this time. The groups were only an indication of that malaise, the stuff on this and other boards also influenced things, as did people simply staying away from games or making their displeasure known from the stands.

Only a fool doesn't take all those factors into account and Tom Farmer is far from that. He's produced a strategic masterstroke to get an alienated fanbase back onside and involved with the club. You do that by following your own instincts, but also taking note of what is happening in the environment around you. We can argue all day about the degree of influence that the more extreme groups (or any other faction, including these boards) had on the decision making process, but to say they had none, is both pathetic and ludicrous. Because people behave in a way you find odious, it's a childish, if natural and moral knee-jerk reaction to say they therefore had no influence or are unimportant. After all, nobody wants to reward what they see as bad behaviour. However, history has shown that negative tactics, in all walks of life, can be effective. It might not say great things about humanity, but the evidence is there for all to see.

However, we'll never know for sure. Even Tom Farmer, Leanne Dempster and Rod Petrie won't, as so much of the decision-making process is subconscious and instinctive. The most important point is that they've made the right one, and it's one which should unite all but the most mean-spirited in our midst.

Well said!

[PatHead]

It's wonderful that our debt has been halved. I wonder how much fans can realistically raise? It's said that if we raise £2.5 million we have 51% of the club. Will we realistically have more than 10,000 investors. I suppose if there are 10,000 each willing to invest £250 it's doable but will it be that or fewer investing more? I wonder how that will pan out. It's great that whatever is raised from the fans will go to the club, presumably for players. Sounds to me like a Christmas pressie from STF. It's strange though that we can have 51% of £25 million worth of assets for £2.5 million, what's the catch, is there one?

Not sure about that - some may be working capital for emergencies.


Sure we will find out soon

[Hibs07p]

As things stand just now, yes.

However, that doesn't preclude the possibility of the holding company selling its shares in the meantime. FWIW, I don't expect the fans to get near 51% for some time yet, if at all.

Only flaw in this is, IF the holding company sells its shares (49%) in one block, in theory, whoever buys them, could also buy as little as 2% of the fans shares, giving them overall ownership of the club. Do you think a straight forward majority holding would be able to push through any changes, or will the voting structure be set up in such a way that any proposed changes would need to be approved by a bigger majority, say 76%?

GGTTH

[ahibby]

Not sure about that - some may be working capital for emergencies.


Sure we will find out soon

Yes I thought that after I posted, it's unsustainable to put a one time investment like this in to player contracts. Probably some will be used for that but the larger amount will be held I'm sure. It's not impossible that even with some of it being used we could increase ST sales which could make the contracts sustainable. Time will tell.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's wonderful that our debt has been halved. I wonder how much fans can realistically raise? It's said that if we raise £2.5 million we have 51% of the club. Will we realistically have more than 10,000 investors. I suppose if there are 10,000 each willing to invest £250 it's doable but will it be that or fewer investing more? I wonder how that will pan out. It's great that whatever is raised from the fans will go to the club, presumably for players. Sounds to me like a Christmas pressie from STF. It's strange though that we can have 51% of £25 million worth of assets for £2.5 million, what's the catch, is there one?

That's not really what's happening.

1. The properties have been valued at £25m on a "replacement" basis, ie what it would cost to rebuild them. They wouldn't be worth that on the open-market, either to a new owner or a property developer.

2. whatever the properties are "worth", you still have to deduct the debt(s) that we have, principally the HFCH loan and any other short-term debts, in order to arrive at a reasonable valuation of the company.

That said, valuing 51% of the shares at £2.5m does seem quite low to me; on the face of it, that it effectively values the club at £5m. The basis of that is one of the questions that is being put to the club.

The "£5m" valuation will be the basis of Simon Pia's nasty dig.

[Glorious St Pat]

Not sure about that - some may be working capital for emergencies.


Sure we will find out soon

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a fighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.

[CropleyWasGod]

Only flaw in this is, IF the holding company sells its shares (49%) in one block, in theory, whoever buys them, could also buy as little as 2% of the fans shares, giving them overall ownership of the club. Do you think a straight forward majority holding would be able to push through any changes, or will the voting structure be set up in such a way that any proposed changes would need to be approved by a bigger majority, say 76%?

GGTTH

TBH, I put that out as a possibility, but wouldn't expect it to actually happen, at least without STF putting some major conditions on the sale.

Some company decisions (don't ask me which; I'm on holiday :greengrin) need the 75% majority, so that needs to be taken into account. I'm sure STF has foreseen most of the possible scenarios, though.

[CropleyWasGod]

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a fighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.

How does a loan repayment line their pockets?

[ahibby]

That's not really what's happening.

1. The properties have been valued at £25m on a "replacement" basis, ie what it would cost to rebuild them. They wouldn't be worth that on the open-market, either to a new owner or a property developer.

2. whatever the properties are "worth", you still have to deduct the debt(s) that we have, principally the HFCH loan and any other short-term debts, in order to arrive at a reasonable valuation of the company.

That said, valuing 51% of the shares at £2.5m does seem quite low to me; on the face of it, that it effectively values the club at £5m. The basis of that is one of the questions that is being put to the club.

The "£5m" valuation will be the basis of Simon Pia's nasty dig.

That clears up my question but leads to another. Is the rebuild value not similar to the rebuild value of hour homes which is often less than what we can sell them for, or is football property different from houses?

[CropleyWasGod]

That clears up my question but leads to another. Is the rebuild value not similar to the rebuild value of hour homes which is often less than what we can sell them for, or is football property different from houses?

Dunno.... ask the surveyors on here. :greengrin

I have to say that I was surprised at the valuation that was quoted.

[ahibby]

How does a loan repayment line their pockets?

Maybe it's a way to ensure that gate receipts and ST sales are used for team building only and the capital raised ensures repayments being made with out effecting the quality of the team? Does it matter though because STF appears to have taken a huge hit no matter what?

[CropleyWasGod]

Maybe it's a way to ensure that gate receipts and ST sales are used for team building only and the capital raised ensures repayments being made with out effecting the quality of the team? Does it matter though because STF appears to have taken a huge hit no matter what?

Don't see how a loan repayment could possibly be interpreted by anybody outside the anti-STF/RP camp (and even those within it, if they have any nous) as "lining their pockets".

[weecounty hibby]

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a yfighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.

Don't know about pockets being lined but it looks to me (someone with no knowledge of finance) that Farmer has taken a bit of a hit to the pocket.
I'm not sure that monthly DDs is the way forward for Hibs. Them over the road had to do it and to a certain degree still need to to keep themselves afloat. That's not the case for us.
As for other revenue streams, we are the same as each and every club in the country who aren't owned by a rich Arab/Russian, match day revenue is all we have. At the moment it looks like Farmer has helped out from time to time as well.
To me, what has been proposed looks very good and gives all those who can invest the opportunity to do so, and if you were to believe some of the groups recently, there seems to be a few. I would hope that they can put any differences to the side and can all work together to drive His forward

[Weststandwanab]

I think Hibs should bring out a Gold season ticket that is £100 more expensive which gives you £120 worth of free shares. It will allow people to put it on the payment plan without breaking any rules.

There would be an issue there of V.A.T. if it was "included" in a season ticket price.


Not sure about that - some may be working capital for emergencies.


Sure we will find out soon

If you were elected onto the Board - and were privy to the answer to your question - would you tell us all ?

CWG your Pia comment is spot on.

[RyeSloan]

I would suggest any monies raised via share sales are put into an 'oil fund' style investment scheme that protects the capital (as much as these things can be) but provides dividends to the club on an annual basis...the scheme could then be extended to have ongoing fund raising that increases the capital invested and thus the dividend paid. This would provide an ongoing cashflow to the club as well as providing an emergency fund for unforeseen circumstances (of which there should be none but maybe unexpected relegation might count!).

OK it would not provide an immediate huge boost to the club but over time could become a significant and important revenue stream that would assist and protect Hibernian for many generations.

[ahibby]

Don't see how a loan repayment could possibly be interpreted by anybody outside the anti-STF/RP camp (and even those within it, if they have any nous) as "lining their pockets".

I agree.

[Peevemor]

Don't see how a loan repayment could possibly be interpreted by anybody outside the anti-STF/RP camp (and even those within it, if they have any nous) as "lining their pockets".

:agree: Anyone with a bit of savvy could easily make more money out of £5m than by a friendly terms loan to a football club (or anyone else for that matter).

[Caversham Green]

That clears up my question but leads to another. Is the rebuild value not similar to the rebuild value of hour homes which is often less than what we can sell them for, or is football property different from houses?

That's about different markets. There's a ready market for houses so they can be sold for more than it costs to build them. There's no market at all for a 20,000-seat football stadium in Edinburgh, but the cost of building a stadium to the standard of ER is high.

As an aside, the PBS is valued at £5.45m on the same basis.

[Ozyhibby]

I would suggest any monies raised via share sales are put into an 'oil fund' style investment scheme that protects the capital (as much as these things can be) but provides dividends to the club on an annual basis...the scheme could then be extended to have ongoing fund raising that increases the capital invested and thus the dividend paid. This would provide an ongoing cashflow to the club as well as providing an emergency fund for unforeseen circumstances (of which there should be none but maybe unexpected relegation might count!).

OK it would not provide an immediate huge boost to the club but over time could become a significant and important revenue stream that would assist and protect Hibernian for many generations.

That would be my preference. The income from a £2.5m investment fund would pay the wages of at least one SPFL level player.

[CropleyWasGod]

That would be my preference. The income from a £2.5m investment fund would pay the wages of at least one SPFL level player.

At even 3% income, which is quite high these days, that's only £75k, so we might struggle to use the income on players.

However, the logic is sound. I'd rather that than advertising to all and sundry that we have £2.5m to spend. That just bumps up the price of every player in the country. (see Hearts/SMG :greengrin)

[Jack]

I wonder what happened to the Community Interest Company model?

Is there a possibility that it may come in the future with the way this is likely to go?

[greenlex]

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a fighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.
Whilst we still await details I cannot for the life of me see Sporting Ambition and lining Pockets being remotely compatible.

[Ozyhibby]

At even 3% income, which is quite high these days, that's only £75k, so we might struggle to use the income on players.

However, the logic is sound. I'd rather that than advertising to all and sundry that we have £2.5m to spend. That just bumps up the price of every player in the country. (see Hearts/SMG :greengrin)

We have players in the team just now on less than £75k.
Any future transfer income should also be added to this pot. Sell Allan for £2m? The Hibernian Wealth Fund goes up to £4.5m.

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder what happened to the Community Interest Company model?

Is there a possibility that it may come in the future with the way this is likely to go?

I wondered that myself.

I'm sure it's still out there, but whether it's brought on as a sub might depend on the outcome of the share issue. I said earlier that I thought we might be seeing the beginning of STF's exit strategy and, while he seems to prefer the idea of fan-ownership in that respect, the CIC could be Plan B.

[CropleyWasGod]

We have players in the team just now on less than £75k.
Any future transfer income should also be added to this pot. Sell Allan for £2m? The Hibernian Wealth Fund goes up to £4.5m.

...or pay off part of the loan. Depending on the terms we're getting, that may be a better plan.

It's such a bugger having money, eh no? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

...or pay off part of the loan. Depending on the terms we're getting, that may be a better plan.

It's such a bugger having money, eh no? :greengrin

It may be a better idea, depends on the terms, I suppose. The very fact of starting a fund may be more beneficial as it gets supporters used to the idea. Once it is set up, we can work out ways of topping it up. So long as all income from it goes to the manager, fans will get behind it.
Rich club problems, right enough. :-)

[seanshow]

Overall fantastic news well done to the board and Sir Tom.

to speculate what would be the terms and interest rate of the remaining loan to HFC holdings if it can be configured to Hibs advantage, £5m over 20 years?

[CropleyWasGod]

Overall fantastic news well done to the board and Sir Tom.

to speculate what would be the terms and interest rate of the remaining loan to HFC holdings if it can be configured to Hibs advantage, £5m over 20 years?

Hasn't been disclosed yet.

Anything other than open-ended, unsecured, interest-free and with the opportunity to take repayment-holidays at any time, and I will be disappointed.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hasn't been disclosed yet.

Anything other than open-ended, unsecured, interest-free and with the opportunity to take repayment-holidays at any time, and I will be disappointed.

Ever the pessimist, next you'll be telling us it was all a dream.

[ancient hibee]

It may be a better idea, depends on the terms, I suppose. The very fact of starting a fund may be more beneficial as it gets supporters used to the idea. Once it is set up, we can work out ways of topping it up. So long as all income from it goes to the manager, fans will get behind it.
Rich club problems, right enough. :-)

Don't think a fund is a good idea.Say after year 1 it has reached a million quid that means by the end of year2 it may have produced around £30K income-a drop in the bucket-meanwhile there is a million quid available to make a lasting difference by driving the business forward.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't think a fund is a good idea.Say after year 1 it has reached a million quid that means by the end of year2 it may have produced around £30K income-a drop in the bucket-meanwhile there is a million quid available to make a lasting difference by driving the business forward.

The fund also doubles up as a rainy day fund. We are going to need that in future without STF.

[Caversham Green]

Don't think a fund is a good idea.Say after year 1 it has reached a million quid that means by the end of year2 it may have produced around £30K income-a drop in the bucket-meanwhile there is a million quid available to make a lasting difference by driving the business forward.


The fund also doubles up as a rainy day fund. We are going to need that in future without STF.

I'd go for somewhere between the two - say a 10-year plan where £100,000 for every million is released to the budget each year. Interest would stretch it a wee bit beyond the 10 years and the fund could be topped up from player sales or other fund-raising initiatives.

You'd always get the 'business before football' complaints though even though they don't really make much sense.

[Bostonhibby]

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a fighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.

Guess it all boils down to what each of us believe is true(?) - the club say this:-

Today the Board of Hibernian Football Club is announcing its intention that supporters will have the opportunity to own up to 51% of the shares in the Club. All money raised from supporters through this process will go direct into the Club, to help fund sporting ambition

Hoping sporting ambition means we will be using it on the playing side - there's a question listed for the board on this one and it will probably come up at the AGM.

The only loan left seems to also be touched on when owner says it will be a mortgage at favourable terms and on a smaller overall liability - we need to chase this one down too but it gives us a great chance to trade on a going concern basis, proudly paying our way as we always have done.

The way forward is clear for anyone who doesn't buy into this proposal - don't buy the shares.

Buying shares on an instalment basis is attractive because it increases the chances of a wider base of fans being able to buy and could give a better spread of income, I think the period would need to be capped as there's a chance of diminishing returns/drop in interest (how the yam model could go).

[The Green Goblin]

Correct, and I don't think it will get as far as a vote. I think he will step down soon.

Not according to LD in her interview with .net Ozy!

[Jack]

Not according to LD in her interview with .net Ozy!

Ah!

A vote of confidence in the chairman by the chairman.

The sacking AGM season coming up.

No chance he'll be there post AGM. He's toast.

[PatHead]

There would be an issue there of V.A.T. if it was "included" in a season ticket price.



If you were elected onto the Board - and were privy to the answer to your question - would you tell us all ?

CWG your Pia comment is spot on.

Only if I was allowed.

[Crazyhorse]

I personally wish the club had been run MUCH better over the years from TOP to bottom. I think its clear having an absent owner has not worked, i also think having a stubborn owner who backed Rod Petrie to the hilt has also been clearly wrong for way too long.

I believe we find ourself in the championship as a direct result of this poor leadership. We can all see that STF has thrown money at the club over the years, but it seems to me its always been to avert a problem rather than when i feel we needed the money at the start of a season before the problems occurred.

Yesterdays news is good news, and STF appears to have taken another hit. Lets not forget the past though we are in the championship under his ownership once again, the 2nd time under his ownership.

The time is right for him to leave, and he has made another grand gesture that will cost him more money. For us to go forward again in my opinion, we need to go in another direction without the baggage of the past.

Spot on. This is an excellent development from STF and one that he seems to have been planning for a while. I don't think anyone will complain about it even the various fan groups who some people are condemning on here. But we also shouldn't rewrite history, the club have been very poorly managed in recent times (in fact that's an understatement) and we will be very fortunate to get back where we belong this season. With this initiative STF has restored some of the esteem I had held him in for many years for his generosity toward our club. I look forward to purchasing shares (to pass on to my sons one day) and doing my bit to make this scheme a success. I will of course criticise those in charge of HFC when I think they are underperforming.

[jdships]

Question !
I was with a couple of ex Hibs players this morning and they were mentioning a story that is going the rounds at a certain bookies office in Edinburgh
Four Edinburgh businessmen , all died in the wool Hibees, are putting up £ 50000 to buy shares in from the new issue.
Will these gentlemen qualify as supporters in the 51% set up and be allowed to purchase as large a block of shares ?

If so it could create a serious" power block" in the future :rolleyes:
Anyone else heard this story and your comments ?

Happy New year to one and all :flag:

[CropleyWasGod]

Question !
I was with a couple of ex Hibs players this morning and they were mentioning a story that is going the rounds at a certain bookies office in Edinburgh
Four Edinburgh businessmen , all died in the wool Hibees, are putting up £ 50000 to buy shares in from the new issue.
Will these gentlemen qualify as supporters in the 51% set up and be allowed to purchase as large a block of shares ?

If so it could create a serious" power block" in the future :rolleyes:
Anyone else heard this story and your comments ?

Happy New year to one and all :flag:
I would doubt that anyone has gone that far. The details of the issue haven't been published, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a relatively low upper limit put on individual or collective holdings.

That said, the "power block" you mention is only 2% of the issue, and approximately 1% of the total intended share capital.

[Weststandwanab]

Question !
I was with a couple of ex Hibs players this morning and they were mentioning a story that is going the rounds at a certain bookies office in Edinburgh
Four Edinburgh businessmen , all died in the wool Hibees, are putting up £ 50000 to buy shares in from the new issue.
Will these gentlemen qualify as supporters in the 51% set up and be allowed to purchase as large a block of shares ?

If so it could create a serious" power block" in the future :rolleyes:
Anyone else heard this story and your comments ?

Happy New year to one and all :flag:

Sound at best wishful thinking or Better Together propaganda as the current shareholders need to approve the new issue at the forthcoming A.G.M..

[Keith_M]

Question !
I was with a couple of ex Hibs players this morning and they were mentioning a story that is going the rounds at a certain bookies office in Edinburgh
Four Edinburgh businessmen , all died in the wool Hibees, are putting up £ 50000 to buy shares in from the new issue.
Will these gentlemen qualify as supporters in the 51% set up and be allowed to purchase as large a block of shares ?

If so it could create a serious" power block" in the future :rolleyes:
Anyone else heard this story and your comments ?




if we accept that 2.5M is roughly half the value of the Club, then that would only give them 4% (£50000 x4) of the shares. I don't see that as a serious power block.

[CropleyWasGod]

if we accept that 2.5M is roughly half the value of the Club, then that would only give them 4% (£50000 x4) of the shares. I don't see that as a serious power block.
And you're assuming that it's 50000 each. I assumed that it's 50000 between them, which is not so much a block as a tickle :)

[Keith_M]

And you're assuming that it's 50000 each. I assumed that it's 50000 between them, which is not so much a block as a tickle :)


Even worse!


:greengrin

[southsider]

Even worse!


:greengrin
Nope. The more the merryer

[brog]

And you're assuming that it's 50000 each. I assumed that it's 50000 between them, which is not so much a block as a tickle :)

The story I heard was £50k each but I heard that months ago & was unconnected to the recent news.

[BSEJVT]

Whilst I applaud the initiative, some questions need answered.

1) Even if we somehow manage to raise the £2.5m - will that money go on working capital, be used to line Farmers and Petrie's pockets via a loan repayment or set aside as a fighting players fund?

2) Once used up, will the sole revenue stream be from the usual match day, season tickets?

I would prefer monthly direct debits over a period in time to secure ongoing working capital.

How is repaying a loan lining someone's pockets when all shareholders will benefit from the uplift in net asset value and STF & RP are giving away half the business for zero, having already reduced debt from their personal resources?

[Jonnyboy]

LD has said there will be protocols put in place to stop any massive bulk buying of shares

[Weststandwanab]

LD has said there will be protocols put in place to stop any massive bulk buying of shares

I think that is a thing called a prospectus !

[jonty]

LD has said there will be protocols put in place to stop any massive bulk buying of shares

i'll just have to register under different email addresses. that'll fox 'em :cb :greengrin

[jdships]

LD has said there will be protocols put in place to stop any massive bulk buying of shares

That sounds a likely scenario :agree::thumbsup:
Then again what happens after the 51% is taken up ? Will "fans" shares be put on sale on the open market ?
Personally I still have some reservations re " fans" owning 51%
Need to see more detail of the " rules and regulations "

[CropleyWasGod]

That sounds a likely scenario :agree::thumbsup:
Then again what happens after the 51% is taken up ? Will "fans" shares be put on sale on the open market ?
Personally I still have some reservations re " fans" owning 51%
Need to see more detail of the " rules and regulations "

There are no plans for our shares to be listed on any market. There will, though, be restrictions on their transferability.

[Jonnyboy]

i'll just have to register under different email addresses. that'll fox 'em :cb :greengrin

You're a man with a plan :greengrin

[Weststandwanab]

Only if I was allowed.

Sorry I missed this important statement by a Candidate to be Fans Rep.

Is that a tongue in cheek comment or are you serious ?

i'll just have to register under different email addresses. that'll fox 'em :cb :greengrin

That would be an offence.


You're a man with a plan :greengrin

To get charged with Fraud

[Just Alf]

Sorry I missed this important statement by a Candidate to be Fans Rep.

Is that a tongue in cheek comment or are you serious ?




Hope I got the quotes sorted (you
Still like that multi quoting eh! :-) )

Not wanting to put
Words in his mouth but the above quote was in response to a question about divulging info from possible future board meetings .... Keeping It confidential unless allowed otherwise seems fair enough to me?