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View Full Version : Barry Hearn tells it like it is to the blazers of the SFA



The_Exile
03-12-2014, 05:56 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30317051

Would agree with most of that TBF.

sleeping giant
03-12-2014, 06:18 PM
What does Doncaster actually do ?

lapsedhibee
03-12-2014, 06:23 PM
What does Doncaster actually do ?

I'll start.

1. Tells porkies on behalf of Rangers.

givescotlandfreedom
03-12-2014, 06:42 PM
I'll start.

1. Tells porkies on behalf of Rangers.

Is in charge of selling a product that he said is dead.

Kato
03-12-2014, 06:49 PM
I'll start.

1. Tells porkies on behalf of Rangers.

2. Hides behind a series of dafty hair-cuts instead of doing his job.

sleeping giant
03-12-2014, 06:50 PM
Is in charge of selling a product that he said is dead.

That was the clincher for me.

That's his legacy .

bingo70
03-12-2014, 06:54 PM
What does Doncaster actually do ?

He works part time on the chase.

He's **** at promoting our game but he certainly knows his general knowledge.

Bronson
03-12-2014, 06:59 PM
Hearn is spot on, self-pity has engulfed our game since the demise of der hun. Our game is constantly slated but there are plenty good things about it people choose to ignore. We probably have one of the highest turnout:population ratios in terms of attendences in the world when you consider how small our population is. Okay, we can't compete with the millions and millions getting pumped into the English game but you'll go a long way to find more passionate supporters than those in Scotland.

Scorrie
03-12-2014, 07:04 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30317051

Would agree with most of that TBF.


Barry Hearn is spot on. Doncaster is a huddy who gets a big wedge for doing the square root of hee-haw. We should stop trying to copy the English game (Premiership, Championship etc ). I still think Scottish football is pretty good at times and I can't believe we dont have a sponsor in the top league. Even the Junior Leagues have some sort of sponsorship. Doncaster should have gone after The Rangers debacle and that other huddy Regan can go an aw.

green&left
03-12-2014, 07:12 PM
The Hearns could sell ice to the eskismo's so should definitely be listened to who, however the dour faces of Doncaster/Regan/Ogilvie (Who should all GTF from our game IMO after their failures) won't listen to a word. The suits are stuck in the dark ages. As are the police and whoever else doesn't allow grown men and women in the year 2014 to have an alcoholic beverage at a football match (one of the few countries in europe that don't!)

weonlywon6-2
03-12-2014, 07:24 PM
Good story,so true as well
Imo boxing is terrible but they don't half stir it up into a frenzy on tv to get the attention

bingo70
03-12-2014, 07:27 PM
Good story,so true as well
Imo boxing is terrible but they don't half stir it up into a frenzy on tv to get the attention

If you'd have said 10-15 years ago darts would be as popular as it us today you'd have been stuck in the mad house.

iwasthere1972
03-12-2014, 07:28 PM
Alcohol in football stadiums in Scotland. Please don't.

Pretty Boy
03-12-2014, 07:32 PM
Alcohol in football stadiums in Scotland. Please don't.

Why?

If it was regulated properly why would there be a huge rise in trouble? In theory I can go to the pub at 11 on saturday morning and tank 7 or 8 pints pre game then cause bother, anyone can but the majority don't. Would being able to have an overpriced mass produced lager in the concourse suddenly turn us all into raving loonies? Likewise those who want to get tanked up and cause bother find a way regardless.

I can't see how Hibs v Falkirk or whatever is anymore likely to see trouble because of drinking in a stadium than the recent Newcatle v Liverpool game I was at where I had a bottle of beer at half time and saw no trouble at all.

Allez Hibs
03-12-2014, 07:37 PM
Get this guy in as Chief Executive NOW!!! The guy is spot on! Rangers and Celtic have ruined it for everyone. Get Stewart Regan and Neil Doncaster as far away from Scottish football as humanly possible!!!!:aok:

3pm
03-12-2014, 07:37 PM
Hibs fans at Bolton seemed to manage to have a bevvy!

Cabbage East
03-12-2014, 07:55 PM
Alcohol in football stadiums in Scotland. Please don't.


Here we go. Why not? Enjoy your self-loathing.

sleeping giant
03-12-2014, 07:57 PM
Here we go. Why not? Enjoy your self-loathing.

Self loathing :faf:

Bit dramatic , no ?

sleeping giant
03-12-2014, 07:58 PM
Hibs fans at Bolton seemed to manage to have a bevvy!

I'm hoping you're jesting :greengrin

Quick edit as I missed an apostrophe :greengrin

Cabbage East
03-12-2014, 08:00 PM
Self loathing :faf:

Bit dramatic , no ?


No really. Scots can't be trusted to drink at the football but Germans, Italians and English can?

sleeping giant
03-12-2014, 08:04 PM
No really. Scots can't be trusted to drink at the football but Germans, Italians and English can?

Ken, but it's still not self loathing.

Bronson
03-12-2014, 09:42 PM
Alcohol in football stadiums in Scotland. Please don't.

It would make no difference, if people want to drink they go to the pub before the match, only difference it would make is increased revenue for clubs which can only be good.

Hibby Bairn
04-12-2014, 07:43 AM
It would make no difference, if people want to drink they go to the pub before the match, only difference it would make is increased revenue for clubs which can only be good.

That was Hearn's point. Also that the stadium didn't fill up until 2.55 as everyone is still in the pub.

greenpaper55
04-12-2014, 08:10 AM
The crowds at some games are at desperate levels yet nothing is done by the blazers in Glasgow, fans are fed up going to see visiting teams at least twice a season and often many more, Doncaster's plan was to have a ten team league much against the wishes of the fans and we got the dogs dinner we have now. Home fans can see their teams play the opposition five or six times a season due to cup games and play offs and it's no wonder fans are staying away in droves, Doncaster should get his jotters for this shambles.

IanM
04-12-2014, 08:28 AM
I've been going pished/sober to the football for years, the weekend is my time off and I'll have a bevy if I want to and although I understand why the non alcohol rule was brought in, how many years ago was that now? everything has moved on in football apart from the SFA or whatever they jazz themselves up to be now.

Too many years of pandering over the OF and not interested in the other clubs in Scotland has caused this demise and now they have a chance, a real chance to make some amends by getting rid of the deadwood and briging someone in (like Hearn) for the good of the game but what are the chances of that happeneing?

TV money would be availabvle, more than we're getting now and it's apparent Doncaster et al aren't up for the job

Earl of Currie
04-12-2014, 08:42 AM
I understand why the rule was brought in but times haven’t moved on that much. There is still an increase in alcohol related crimes, proportionally more so in Scotland than England.
If Scotland is wanting to allow drinking back into grounds , I do not see why this can’t be done on a transitional basis. For example selling low alcoholic/non alcoholic drinks before or during games as well as following the German concept of having a blanket ban on high risk games.
If there is trouble , clubs will be responsible for security and can be fined / banned for misconduct.
See how it goes and working with the police / community review it every 2-3 years after that before changing again.

johnbc70
04-12-2014, 08:49 AM
I emailed Regan at least 3 times to ask him why the SFA did not implement the white foam for free kicks that everyone else seems to have done. Ignored 3 times and to me that sums up the contemp they have for the fans, the fans seem to have to fit around their processes and what they think is right while it should be the processes and the product built with the fans at the heart of everything they do.

Bostonhibby
04-12-2014, 09:03 AM
I emailed Regan at least 3 times to ask him why the SFA did not implement the white foam for free kicks that everyone else seems to have done. Ignored 3 times and to me that sums up the contemp they have for the fans, the fans seem to have to fit around their processes and what they think is right while it should be the processes and the product built with the fans at the heart of everything they do.

They definitely have a Blatter like "we know best" approach, only without the money. Really aren't interested in anything that involves the inconvenience of a change to their wee goldfish bowl world of being self important, jumping when the uglies say jump and appearing on the telly now and again.

Sooner Rod runs the show the better :wink:

lord bunberry
04-12-2014, 10:24 AM
He works part time on the chase.

He's **** at promoting our game but he certainly knows his general knowledge.

:faf:

alexedwards
04-12-2014, 10:27 AM
The same Regan/Doncaster that "marketed" Scottish football as "armageddon"? - just what a budding sponsor wants to hear!
Or for that matter any potential sponsor/investor into a Scottish club would think - "This mob don't believe in their own product."
It is not that Reg/Donc just can't find commercial partners it is they themselves that are the very obstacle to finding those partners by their constant devaluing of the product - they truly ruined it.

AndyM_1875
04-12-2014, 10:39 AM
Barry Hearn also said quite rightly that we don't sell the product right. The Broadcasters are laughing at Scottish football. He said you need to understand too the broadcasters are not your friends.
"Dress like a king when you go to negotiate even if you've only got a handful of change in your pocket".

We all remember those awful pictures of Doncaster and Lawell jetting off to London to prostrate themselves at the feet of SkyTV and coming back with a handful of crumbs of a tv deal.

Meanwhile Barry Hearn can get 11000 people into the Hydro to watch darts and eat , drink lots and have a damn good night out whilst the whole thing is broadcast live on Sky Sports.

JimBHibees
04-12-2014, 12:14 PM
Barry Hearn also said quite rightly that we don't sell the product right. The Broadcasters are laughing at Scottish football. He said you need to understand too the broadcasters are not your friends.
"Dress like a king when you go to negotiate even if you've only got a handful of change in your pocket".

We all remember those awful pictures of Doncaster and Lawell jetting off to London to prostrate themselves at the feet of SkyTV and coming back with a handful of crumbs of a tv deal.

Meanwhile Barry Hearn can get 11000 people into the Hydro to watch darts and eat , drink lots and have a damn good night out whilst the whole thing is broadcast live on Sky Sports.

His points were very good especially the total embarrassment of not having a sponsor. Find someone or if not able to gift it to someone like Clic Sargent (sp?) or similar. A bit of goodwill rather than being a self pitying basket case. Oh we cant get a sponsor because the Gers arent in the top league.

Gatecrasher
04-12-2014, 12:21 PM
Barry Hearn also said quite rightly that we don't sell the product right. The Broadcasters are laughing at Scottish football. He said you need to understand too the broadcasters are not your friends.
"Dress like a king when you go to negotiate even if you've only got a handful of change in your pocket".

We all remember those awful pictures of Doncaster and Lawell jetting off to London to prostrate themselves at the feet of SkyTV and coming back with a handful of crumbs of a tv deal.

Meanwhile Barry Hearn can get 11000 people into the Hydro to watch darts and eat , drink lots and have a damn good night out whilst the whole thing is broadcast live on Sky Sports.

Whilst I agree with Barry Hearn, yourself and other posters have contributed here the sad thing about it all is that it will all probably fall on deaf ears.

Colr
04-12-2014, 01:00 PM
He right about the customer experience at football. It's utterly crap. But its not just Scotland. I don't get to many Scottish games but I go to Spurs a lot and the set up is utter garbage considering the money they take in. It compares very poorly with premiership rugby in the organization and quality of what's on offer outside the events on the field.

The posh bit of the Emirates was really good, though.

Keith_M
04-12-2014, 01:26 PM
........... we should stop trying to copy the English game (Premiership, Championship etc ).


That actually sums up the incompetence of those in charge quite well. They decided to rename the league structure and, after much deliberation, just decided to copy England's league names.

It's bad enough that the English Football League decided to rename their highest division 'The Championship', (although they could argue they at least have some justification for using that name) but to use the same name in Scotland after changing to having only ONE League ruling body is stupid in the extreme.

AndyM_1875
04-12-2014, 01:28 PM
Whilst I agree with Barry Hearn, yourself and other posters have contributed here the sad thing about it all is that it will all probably fall on deaf ears.

You're probably right. But it needs someone like him. He called himself a benevolent despot but he's someone with a vision.

And I honestly wouldn't care if that vision tramples all over the "Sporting Integrity" brigade. But for goodness sake get the money flowing. Get a league sponsor, a decent broadcasting contract, market the product, hype the big games and improve the customer experience. That means fans being able to have a beer at the game, incentives for families to go, not sitting in sub zero stadia in January.

southsider
04-12-2014, 01:47 PM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

Pretty Boy
04-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

Yep we really need to cut that risk.

So Scotrail will have to ban all drinking on trains, supermarkets within a 5 mile radius of the departing station shouldn't be allowed to sell alcohol and all shops and pubs around the ground should have a similat ban.

If the rest of us have to suffer to stop a minority then so be it.

Phil MaGlass
04-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

was this inside the ground, if not then I dont get why serving alcohol IN the stadium is such a bad thing.

Phil MaGlass
04-12-2014, 01:52 PM
Yep we really need to cut that risk.

So Scotrail will have to ban all drinking on trains, supermarkets within a 5 mile radius of the departing station shouldn't be allowed to sell alcohol and all shops and pubs around the ground should have a similat ban.

If the rest of us have to suffer to stop a minority then so be it.

Thats just the problem why should I suffer and why should decent folk be expected to suffer for the minority, pretty sad when it has come to that NO?

Pretty Boy
04-12-2014, 01:54 PM
Thats just the problem why should I suffer and why should decent folk be expected to suffer for the minority, pretty sad when it has come to that NO?

My tongue was firmly in cheek.

southsider
04-12-2014, 02:10 PM
Yep we really need to cut that risk.

So Scotrail will have to ban all drinking on trains, supermarkets within a 5 mile radius of the departing station shouldn't be allowed to sell alcohol and all shops and pubs around the ground should have a similat ban.

If the rest of us have to suffer to stop a minority then so be it.

The rail ban already happens. If i thought for a moment that people would behave then I would be for it but very many (OF especially) cant. When we are trying hard to attract more children and this will cause lots of problems.

Keith_M
04-12-2014, 02:14 PM
No really. Scots can't be trusted to drink at the football but Germans, Italians and English can?


I have no idea about the English but there are serious problems in Germany and Italy at football matches. I'd say that Italian Fans are worse but the Germans are cetainly no angels either.

I'm honestly not decided either way on the Alcohol issue, though after the Hearts v Celtc match at the weekend, it'll be a hard sell to convince the authorities to allow the sale of alcohol at games v the Ugly Sisters.

One thing I would point out is that it isn't as simple as convincing the Clubs. The relevant law in Scotland would have to be repealed/amended first (Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, 1980)

AndyM_1875
04-12-2014, 02:19 PM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

I'm all for restricting booze at Category A matches but as many on here have said it's downright insulting to think that when Hibs are playing Falkirk or Killie that the fans can't have a pint in the concourse are before the game. And if it's anything like Spurs then it's a pretty weak lager in a plastic cup/bottle.

jacomo
05-12-2014, 12:24 AM
Doncaster is useless. Always has been.

Regan should be emptied too. Embarrassing lack of talent at the top of Scottish football.

By the way, didn't Petrie sit on the committee that appointed Doncaster?

Smartie
05-12-2014, 08:13 AM
]I'm all for restricting booze at Category A matches[/B] but as many on here have said it's downright insulting to think that when Hibs are playing Falkirk or Killie that the fans can't have a pint in the concourse are before the game. And if it's anything like Spurs then it's a pretty weak lager in a plastic cup/bottle.

Absolutely.

Pouring more booze into our powderkeg fixtures would be a recipe for disaster.

99% of fixtures would be absolutely fine with it though and these are the fixtures that could arguably most do with attendances being boosted anyway.

bingo70
05-12-2014, 08:20 AM
Absolutely.

Pouring more booze into our powderkeg fixtures would be a recipe for disaster.

99% of fixtures would be absolutely fine with it though and these are the fixtures that could arguably most do with attendances being boosted anyway.

I'm no convinced the service would be fast enough to allow folk to get pished during a game of football. If you're then only allowed to drink in the concourse I really can't see there being any problem.

No like they'd be selling jaegerbombs, sambuca or buckfast.

heretoday
05-12-2014, 08:33 AM
Serving drink at matches will turn out to be a rip off like everything else. You'll have pints of Carlsberg selling for over a fiver.

Ozyhibby
05-12-2014, 08:34 AM
Doncaster is useless. Always has been.

Regan should be emptied too. Embarrassing lack of talent at the top of Scottish football.

By the way, didn't Petrie sit on the committee that appointed Doncaster?

Not only that, he raves about him being a great appointment.

lord bunberry
06-12-2014, 09:17 AM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

We already sell alcohol in the stadium at ER. The behind the goals bar is open before the game and after the game. The only difference would be that you could get a drink during the half time break. We don't have to sell alcohol to away fans during cat A games.

Prof. Shaggy
06-12-2014, 10:38 AM
If the rest of us have to suffer to stop a minority then so be it.

Someone "suffering" for want of a drink really should be seeking professional advice.:na na:

lord bunberry
06-12-2014, 10:44 AM
Someone "suffering" for want of a drink really should be seeking professional advice.:na na:

I like to seek the advice of a bar maid.

degenerated
06-12-2014, 11:01 AM
I'll start.

1. Tells porkies on behalf of Rangers.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/06/3fdacd67de1bb3338c1856167a2af030.jpg

Bristolhibby
06-12-2014, 11:06 AM
He right about the customer experience at football. It's utterly crap. But its not just Scotland. I don't get to many Scottish games but I go to Spurs a lot and the set up is utter garbage considering the money they take in. It compares very poorly with premiership rugby in the organization and quality of what's on offer outside the events on the field.

The posh bit of the Emirates was really good, though.

Speaking of Premier Rugby and the match day experience, I follow Bath rugby and we got a new owner and CEO in Nick Blofeld. He had a background in event management.

From being a ramshackle ground, with pretty poor facilities.

The ground is much better, tonnes of bars and massive toilets. The club want to get people in the ground and spend their money in the ground.

There is now a massive marquee come pub called the Swift Half with really slick booze distribution. There are multiple good quality food outlets from Hog Roast to a Jamie Oliver's snack shack. Merchandising is available here as well, for example I forgot my hat one game and was freezing (I'm bald) I nipped behind the stand and bought a Bath beanie.

After the game the bars remain open and often there is a band playing in the Swift Half.

Compare that with what we are given as a product in Scottish football.

There are so many quick wins. For example, why isn't Behind the Goals open to anyone who fancies it? Get the people in and spending money with the club. Take back the ownership of food and give people good quality scran. I want a gourmet lamb and mint pie, not some lukewarm sludge in some damp pastry.

So much can be done relatively easily.

J

Joe Baker II
06-12-2014, 11:27 AM
Easy to blame SFA, but is problem not really closer to home given as Farmer consider's Petrie an acceptable person to represent Hibs on the SFA, and by buying season tickets Hibs fans are giving support o the incompetence Hearn rightly described.

Sad to read that some Hibs fans seem to think that acceptable response to an arguably openly racist situation regarding the alcohol ban (and it is - SNP happy with one rule for English football fans and one for the anglophile sport of rugby union in Scotland) by comments that anyone who raises it has a problem because they cannot drink for 2 hours - it is a customer service, certainly class and arguably a race issue, and these comments are just propaganda for the SNP.

matty_f
06-12-2014, 12:09 PM
Easy to blame SFA, but is problem not really closer to home given as Farmer consider's Petrie an acceptable person to represent Hibs on the SFA, and by buying season tickets Hibs fans are giving support o the incompetence Hearn rightly described.

Sad to read that some Hibs fans seem to think that acceptable response to an arguably openly racist situation regarding the alcohol ban (and it is - SNP happy with one rule for English football fans and one for the anglophile sport of rugby union in Scotland) by comments that anyone who raises it has a problem because they cannot drink for 2 hours - it is a customer service, certainly class and arguably a race issue, and these comments are just propaganda for the SNP.

I don't think you can make a case for it being racist, though I would agree with the class issue.

I think you're wrong criticing season ticket holders for supporting the state of Scottish football, for me (as a season ticket holder), buying the ticket is about supporting the team - it's not an endorsement of Petrie, or the SFA/SPFL in any way. There are more ways to challenge the way the game is being run than by depriving the club of essential season ticket revenue.

Prof. Shaggy
06-12-2014, 12:27 PM
I like to seek the advice of a bar maid.

I sought that once.

Her advice was short and to the point.

Sylar
06-12-2014, 01:09 PM
Alcohol in football stadiums in Scotland. Please don't.

Thing is, you can drink at football games in Scotland - it's just a class barrier for the most part, as you have to pay for the hospitality package to be able to do it.

Evidently, the 'affluent' football fans can be trusted - it's just the thugs, hooligans, biggots and wee fanny's in the stands that are the supposed problem.

Find it hard to disagree with Hearns' words. Combined with the input from the German FA official the other day and our game is under a bit of a wider microscope at the minute with valid points aplenty.

Ricky Bobby
06-12-2014, 01:28 PM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?


It's the 21st century, the vast majority of fans are more than capable of controlling themselves with or without a drink. I dont see the difference between old firm fans drinking carry outs on street corners before games and drinking inside the stadium other than they are easier to keep an eye on and we would benefit financially from it. As with any establishment that serves alchohol you you dont admit or serve anyone that is drunk.
Also for years the club has bemoaned the fact that fans come rolling in at ten past three, if you treat people properly and offer a decent food and drink at decent prices they are far more likely to come along earlier, which in my opinion would also improve the atmosphere in the ground.

Phil D. Rolls
06-12-2014, 02:01 PM
Gotta love the words of a cockney chancer when they are the ones we want to hear.

Stick a pony in me pocket
I'll get the suitcase from the van.....


Luvvly Jubbly!!

ScottB
06-12-2014, 02:27 PM
Wouldn't have a problem with booze being allowed, would probably keep it banned from Old Firm, Derby matches etc though.

VivaHiberña
06-12-2014, 05:38 PM
Easy to blame SFA, but is problem not really closer to home given as Farmer consider's Petrie an acceptable person to represent Hibs on the SFA, and by buying season tickets Hibs fans are giving support o the incompetence Hearn rightly described.

Sad to read that some Hibs fans seem to think that acceptable response to an arguably openly racist situation regarding the alcohol ban (and it is - SNP happy with one rule for English football fans and one for the anglophile sport of rugby union in Scotland) by comments that anyone who raises it has a problem because they cannot drink for 2 hours - it is a customer service, certainly class and arguably a race issue, and these comments are just propaganda for the SNP.

What type of racism is it? Anti-Scottish racism from the Nats who trust the English and "Anglophiles" to have a bevvy but not the Scots or Scotophiles? Doesn't really fit with the SNP's usual logic. Not having a go at you (though to be honest I disagree), I'm curious about your thinking.


FWIW I agree re the class issue. Middle-class rugby types can be trusted but football fans can't apparently, you get the same attitude from the police, stewards and train conductors. This sort of stuff should have died out in the 80s.

I don't really care about being allowed to tan a pint in 15 minutes in a packed concourse. If I'm allowed to enjoy a drink while watching the game then I'll be interested. Most of Europe, as well the aforementioned rugger sorts, seem to be able to cope with that outlandish concept.

green&left
08-12-2014, 09:41 AM
Wrong. Alcohol and dumbwits = trouble. There is no way any OF fan should be served alcohol inside our ground. If that means the rest of us have to suffer then so be it. A young man was stabbed to death by the neo-facist Real Madrid Ultra's last weekend. Do we really want to chance something similar at ER ?

And Red Star Belgrade fan got stabbed by a Turk last week and a Swedish fan got battered to death at a pre-arranged fight yesterday between two clubs.

Sad stories but what the **** this has to do with Scotland I don't know.

Take out the arrests for singing Roll of Honour and the Billy Boys Scotland probably has the lowest arrest rates in European football. And people going on about the big bad old firm... there was stats published a while back from the daily ranger which showed that Hibs, Aberdeen & Dundee Utd had a higher number of banners orders per 1000 fans than Rangers and Celtic, and that Hibs and Aberdeen had similar number of arrests to Celtic and Rangers, despite having alot less match going fans over the course of a season...

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 10:55 AM
What type of racism is it? Anti-Scottish racism from the Nats who trust the English and "Anglophiles" to have a bevvy but not the Scots or Scotophiles? Doesn't really fit with the SNP's usual logic. Not having a go at you (though to be honest I disagree), I'm curious about your thinking.


FWIW I agree re the class issue. Middle-class rugby types can be trusted but football fans can't apparently, you get the same attitude from the police, stewards and train conductors. This sort of stuff should have died out in the 80s.

I don't really care about being allowed to tan a pint in 15 minutes in a packed concourse. If I'm allowed to enjoy a drink while watching the game then I'll be interested. Most of Europe, as well the aforementioned rugger sorts, seem to be able to cope with that outlandish concept.

Is this inverted snobbery, or is it just a misreading of the situation? There has never been a history of crowd trouble at rugby games, there has been at football.

Maybe when football can move on from childish spats like the one at Tynecastle last week, then people might judge the game differently. They don't allow alcohol in psychiatric hospitals, and I suspect it's the same cautious approach from the authorities here.

I have no desire to stand beside rugby types and their "banter", but it isn't a patch on some of the vile stuff I've heard at football games,or have read on here. That said, English football fans can cope with it, so I don't see why it can't be tried up here - it's not as if people get killed because of football is it?

Kato
08-12-2014, 11:55 AM
Is this inverted snobbery, or is it just a misreading of the situation? There has never been a history of crowd trouble at rugby games, there has been at football.



There's no inverted snobbery there at all.

There is a huge history of trouble at rugby games, fights, locals being harrassed, women being verbally and sexually assualted. Been witness to quite a bit of it myself. What there isn't a history of is the police doing anything to stop it when it's rugby fans, therefore the impression is given they are well behaved when, in the main, they are just like any football support, a mixture of good and bad.

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 12:15 PM
There's no inverted snobbery there at all.

There is a huge history of trouble at rugby games, fights, locals being harrassed, women being verbally and sexually assualted. Been witness to quite a bit of it myself. What there isn't a history of is the police doing anything to stop it when it's rugby fans, therefore the impression is given they are well behaved when, in the main, they are just like any football support, a mixture of good and bad.

Well, I'd say opinion is divided on this. You and the rest of the planet. :greengrin

Tell me this, if they're just the same as everybody else, why was someone saying they get special treatment because they are middle class?

If they are just the same, then the other poster was surely guilty of inverted snobbery by saying it was a class issue.

Sarcasm apart, can you point me towards rugby matches that have been controlled by mounted police, like happened at the 1980 cup final (the game that caused the no booze policy); what is rugby's equivalent of the Heysel; which rugby club has the best casual firm; how many times have rugby fans had the dogs turned on them because they were throwing missiles at the opposition.

They do not behave like football fans did traditionally. They don't have gangs of young men that follow their team looking for trouble. They don't have a sectarian problem. They don't mass in gangs waving their season tickets at the back of the stand.

On the whole, they are pretty dull people, who like to get together sink a few pints, and play Top Gear style japes on each other.

Personally, having seen the way some people behave with drink at games, I'd prefer it was kept away. There's enough empty heads go to matches, without adding booze to the equation.

Kato
08-12-2014, 12:32 PM
Well, I'd say opinion is divided on this. You and the rest of the planet. :greengrin

Tell me this, if they're just the same as everybody else, why was someone saying they get special treatment because they are middle class?

If they are just the same, then the other poster was surely guilty of inverted snobbery by saying it was a class issue.

Sarcasm apart, can you point me towards rugby matches that have been controlled by mounted police, like happened at the 1980 cup final (the game that caused the no booze policy); what is rugby's equivalent of the Heysel; which rugby club has the best casual firm; how many times have rugby fans had the dogs turned on them because they were throwing missiles at the opposition.

They do not behave like football fans did traditionally. They don't have gangs of young men that follow their team looking for trouble. They don't have a sectarian problem. They don't mass in gangs waving their season tickets at the back of the stand.

On the whole, they are pretty dull people, who like to get together sink a few pints, and play Top Gear style japes on each other.

Personally, having seen the way some people behave with drink at games, I'd prefer it was kept away. There's enough empty heads go to matches, without adding booze to the equation.

You're partly comparing apples with oranges and partly building straw-men.

No, there is no rubgy version of the Hysel, yes they do get preferential treatment from the police. The latter isn't inverted snobbery - it's just fact. Rugby fans will do and get away with doing things that football fans do not. The fact that it is not all over the papers is down to the police turning a blind eye.

The vast majority of football fans and rugby fans are perfectly well behaved and perfectly capable of having a pint without causing trouble, There are also perfectly sober football fans who turn up at games ready, willing and able to sing sectarian songs. Drink isn't the issue with the latter problem, that one runs deeper into Scottish society and the social make-up of the country.

alexedwards
08-12-2014, 12:34 PM
Sectarianism is the issue - denial is the obstacle.

Kato
08-12-2014, 12:38 PM
Sectarianism is the issue - denial is the obstacle.

Agreed, denial is an obstacle, so is sumdging and smearing the issue with "whataboutery" and allowing leeway one way and another and inconsistency. I'm sure there plenty Hearts fans who "indulge" but don't think they are part of the problem.

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 12:44 PM
You're partly comparing apples with oranges and partly building straw-men.

No, there is no rubgy version of the Hysel, yes they do get preferential treatment from the police. The latter isn't inverted snobbery - it's just fact. Rugby fans will do and get away with doing things that football fans do not. The fact that it is not all over the papers is down to the police turning a blind eye.

The vast majority of football fans and rugby fans are perfectly well behaved and perfectly capable of having a pint without causing trouble, There are also perfectly sober football fans who turn up at games ready, willing and able to sing sectarian songs. Drink isn't the issue with the latter problem, that one runs deeper into Scottish society and the social make-up of the country.

Maybe, I don't agree, but I think your points aren't crazy.

I think ink saying they get preferential treatment because they are middle class is stretching it too far. I just don't think there is the same history of crowd trouble as football has.

Kato
08-12-2014, 01:14 PM
Maybe, I don't agree, but I think your points aren't crazy.

I think ink saying they get preferential treatment because they are middle class is stretching it too far. I just don't think there is the same history of crowd trouble as football has.

I never mentioned "middle class" I said "rugby fans" although the perception that they are all middle class exists. In Edinburgh it is a middle-to-upper class sport and that isn't untrue. It has a different history from football as much of the trouble they cause goes unpunished and therefore stays out the press. The kind of trouble also differs anyway.

TheEastTerrace
08-12-2014, 01:59 PM
I was at the convention last week and Hearn certainly didn't pull any punches about the current failures in marketing and promotion of Scottish football.

The headline message was about 'image and perception'; in a nutshell, we don't promote a positive image very effectively and focus on the negatives / self-pity, therefore we are perceived less favourably compared with others. So we need to change this.

I do agree wholeheartedly with his confusion as to why Scottish football requires so many separate associations/league bodies rather than one governance structure with departments for various areas of the game. Jeez, they all share the same office corridors in Hampden anyways.

Regarding his suggestions, some have merit, some have their issues. The booze ban could be lifted and I, for one, would like to have a pint watching the game but I can understand that the authorities may have their doubts over Cat A matches. However, people booze and get around the obstacles whatever the KO time so I doubt whether we'd suddenly see pitched battles at matches.

The quality of the product vs. price is and will be an issue for me for the foreseeable future.

VivaHiberña
08-12-2014, 03:01 PM
Well, I'd say opinion is divided on this. You and the rest of the planet. :greengrin

Tell me this, if they're just the same as everybody else, why was someone saying they get special treatment because they are middle class?

If they are just the same, then the other poster was surely guilty of inverted snobbery by saying it was a class issue.

Sarcasm apart, can you point me towards rugby matches that have been controlled by mounted police, like happened at the 1980 cup final (the game that caused the no booze policy); what is rugby's equivalent of the Heysel; which rugby club has the best casual firm; how many times have rugby fans had the dogs turned on them because they were throwing missiles at the opposition.

They do not behave like football fans did traditionally. They don't have gangs of young men that follow their team looking for trouble. They don't have a sectarian problem. They don't mass in gangs waving their season tickets at the back of the stand.

[...]

That's half my point, football policing is based on how crowds used to act. While there are a few idiots that's no more an issue in Scottish football than in England, and like Kato said, a lot of s**** that rugby supporters get up to is ignored by the police and press.

I feel there is a degree of class prejudice when it comes to the difference in how football and rugby supporters are treated, which is utterly nonsensical given the demographics of modern crowds. I think you are right in part though in saying it is down to how football fans used to act.

I think the vast majority of football supporters can be trusted with a drink, although I'm not sure it's a great idea at Cat A games where people are on edge and the idiots come out in force.
____________________________________

Joe Baker II, you haven't answered my question about the SNP's scotophobic racism yet. Please do, I'm fascinated. :wink:

Colr
08-12-2014, 04:59 PM
You're partly comparing apples with oranges and partly building straw-men.

No, there is no rubgy version of the Hysel, yes they do get preferential treatment from the police. The latter isn't inverted snobbery - it's just fact. Rugby fans will do and get away with doing things that football fans do not. The fact that it is not all over the papers is down to the police turning a blind eye.

The vast majority of football fans and rugby fans are perfectly well behaved and perfectly capable of having a pint without causing trouble, There are also perfectly sober football fans who turn up at games ready, willing and able to sing sectarian songs. Drink isn't the issue with the latter problem, that one runs deeper into Scottish society and the social make-up of the country.

There are practically no police at the rugby games I've been to. It's stewarded by middle aged women on the whole. That's because there is no trouble.

Dr What If?
08-12-2014, 05:51 PM
How does the outside world view Scottish domestic football? Generally, it's all about Celtic/Rangers. The rest of us are just a minority who have a soft spot for our local clubs. Our problem is that is how Doncaster views our game as well - how can he be expected to do his job, find a sponsor etc when the little romantics do something crazy like 'relegate' one of only two real clubs in our league? His job should be getting the environment right for these two to get into Europe and compete with the big boys.
The problem is we (and pretty much every other non OF club) don't share this view. We want a good match day experience, if that includes a beer...well, if the club can provide that in a safe environment why not? We don't want to play each other four times a year or have a league structure that is nothing more than a really poor attempt at copying a far superior English effort. We should be building our own product and make it as distinctly different as possible.
Fans want competition, fun, excitement, a day out - Doncaster cares only about advancing the OF - pricing, a beer, and all the rest aren't even on his radar.

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 06:26 PM
I never mentioned "middle class" I said "rugby fans" although the perception that they are all middle class exists. In Edinburgh it is a middle-to-upper class sport and that isn't untrue. It has a different history from football as much of the trouble they cause goes unpunished and therefore stays out the press. The kind of trouble also differs anyway.

You didn't, but this guy did before you butted in. :greengrin


That's half my point, football policing is based on how crowds used to act. While there are a few idiots that's no more an issue in Scottish football than in England, and like Kato said, a lot of s**** that rugby supporters get up to is ignored by the police and press.

I feel there is a degree of class prejudice when it comes to the difference in how football and rugby supporters are treated, which is utterly nonsensical given the demographics of modern crowds. I think you are right in part though in saying it is down to how football fans used to act.

I think the vast majority of football supporters can be trusted with a drink, although I'm not sure it's a great idea at Cat A games where people are on edge and the idiots come out in force.
____________________________________

Joe Baker II, you haven't answered my question about the SNP's scotophobic racism yet. Please do, I'm fascinated. :wink:

Possibly, but you could also argue that rugby is a game more associated with clubs whose members go to see the games. The social aspect of rugby is massive. As a result, people who go to games have a lot to lose if they misbehave. If nothing else, they'll be chucked out of their club.

Football on the other hand, has a more tribal nature to it, and its rivalries are based on things beyond the sport itself. The area of the city the club belongs to, inter city rivalry, and other more serious things like what side they were on in the Spanish Civil War.

Traditionally football crowds have been wilder, whether that is a reflection of social class or not is open to debate. It's worth bearing in mind that the same class divisions don't exist in other countries, yet crowds still display the same intense rivalry, even hatred. It could be as much to sdo with the game as class.

That said, I think if rugby supporters were subjected to some of the heavy handed policing we see when we go to Glasgow, for example, they might object very strongly indeed. For some reason the police trust rugby fans to mix, whereas they don't trust football fans to mix.

linlithgowhibbie
08-12-2014, 06:35 PM
How about a mini trial at some grouunds. At ER we could try 1 area, say the FF upper, anyone wanting a beer sits there and can buy from the food outlet thats already there. Any bother and its cancelled, if successful we try 1/2 of the East and so on.
Worth an application from Hibs?:gwa:

At Tynie it could be at he Gorgie Rd area, 1 stand in each ground for starters?

silverhibee
08-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Just been watching SSN and it says that alcohol is banned from all stadiums in Scotland.

How are football clubs allowed to sell alcohol inside grounds now, are clubs flouting this ban. :confused:

Michael
08-12-2014, 07:10 PM
I don't see what the issue is. How on earth can overpriced beer lead to disorder? Anyone that has one who then causes trouble was drunk before they came in anyway.

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 07:17 PM
I don't see what the issue is. How on earth can overpriced beer lead to disorder? Anyone that has one who then causes trouble was drunk before they came in anyway.

Yes, but not as drunk surely?

Kato
08-12-2014, 07:22 PM
There are practically no police at the rugby games I've been to. It's stewarded by middle aged women on the whole. That's because there is no trouble.

I've only ever been to one rugby match in my life and saw zero problems.

However, had plenty experience as to how rugby fans behave when in Edinburgh for the Internationals. If some of that stuff were done by football fans there would be plenty arrests.

Michael
08-12-2014, 07:24 PM
Yes, but not as drunk surely?

We should just close half of the cash register positions so that the amount you sober up while waiting >= the amount of drunkenness from 1 beer.

Phil D. Rolls
08-12-2014, 07:34 PM
I've only ever been to one rugby match in my life and saw zero problems.

However, had plenty experience as to how rugby fans behave when in Edinburgh for the Internationals. If some of that stuff were done by football fans there would be plenty arrests.

Care to give some examples? Personally, I've only seen fuddishness, except for when the Welsh come up - not very good losers at all. In fact they are the only ones I have seen behave like football fans.


We should just close half of the cash register positions so that the amount you sober up while waiting >= the amount of drunkenness from 1 beer.

I think they've been running a pilot scheme without the beer for the last couple of seasons.

Kato
08-12-2014, 08:19 PM
Care to give some examples? Personally, I've only seen fuddishness, except for when the Welsh come up - not very good losers at all. In fact they are the only ones I have seen behave like football fans.



I think they've been running a pilot scheme without the beer for the last couple of seasons.

Welsh are the worst i.m.e., but seen stuff from English and Scottish as well.

The worst examples I've seen are several cases of sexual harassment (actual and verbal) which were pretty ugly, some but not much all out paggering, "boisterousness" of the type that if it where football fans a meat wagon would be called.

Always remember one time in the Waverley Hibs were away on the Sunday. Some rugby fans (Scottish) were throwing a (funny-shaped) ball around in front of the ticked hall. I stood back and watched as the ball hit a couple of people and generally caused a bit of a nuisance, two Railway police stood back and watched with big grins on their faces. An auld boy complained and was waved away. Eventually the ball went under a Taxi causing the guy to swerve and the police went over to calm things down. After a few minutes the ball was out again in full view of the police. If that were football fans (and not ruddy cheeked borders types with Prince Charles hair-cuts) they would have been lifted.

heretoday
08-12-2014, 08:55 PM
The only bad behaviour I've seen at Murrayfield is the habit Scots fans have of booing the opposition kickers when they approach a conversion.

I've not seen that elsewhere and it's mostly schoolkids that do it.

Tickets for internationals tend to be expensive. Maybe that leads to better behaviour.

jacomo
09-12-2014, 11:52 PM
How does the outside world view Scottish domestic football? Generally, it's all about Celtic/Rangers. The rest of us are just a minority who have a soft spot for our local clubs. Our problem is that is how Doncaster views our game as well - how can he be expected to do his job, find a sponsor etc when the little romantics do something crazy like 'relegate' one of only two real clubs in our league? His job should be getting the environment right for these two to get into Europe and compete with the big boys.
The problem is we (and pretty much every other non OF club) don't share this view. We want a good match day experience, if that includes a beer...well, if the club can provide that in a safe environment why not? We don't want to play each other four times a year or have a league structure that is nothing more than a really poor attempt at copying a far superior English effort. We should be building our own product and make it as distinctly different as possible.
Fans want competition, fun, excitement, a day out - Doncaster cares only about advancing the OF - pricing, a beer, and all the rest aren't even on his radar.

All true. Please make Doncaster go away.

He beat Longmuir to the job, too... he must have been really bad to lose out to flat top.

Hibby Bairn
10-12-2014, 09:33 AM
At a game in Prague a few years ago I got served a beer at my seat by a server walking about the stand with 6 frothy tops in a drinks carrier.

It's not rocket science. Jeez we did this (not with beer) 40 years ago with trackside tray carriers.