Current level of support for Buyhibs

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps if we change owner for change's sake then thing's will be brilliant, or perhaps we'll end up in the keech. :dunno:

I think we are already in the keech.

[Ozyhibby]

What is it about the OWNER that is keeping lots of fans away from Easter Road? There have been lots of posts commenting on the difference between owner, board, executive etc - do you follow the arguments?

Is the proposal really that changing the owner in itself will bring fans back to the stadium?

Have you never spoken to a Stay away Hibs fan who has said they will not be back until Petrie is away?
Only by changing owner can he be removed.

[Caversham Green]

Perhaps with new owners some of the stay away fans can be brought back to Easter road? Perhaps the club just needs a new energy about it?
If these fans can be brought back then the playing budget can be increased and the team improved.
Do you think Leeann, George and Alan would be able to do a better job with a bigger budget?

The number fans genuinely staying away because of the owner is debatable - personally I doubt if it's much more than a hundred. I also think their attitude is idiotic but that's just my opinion. The new management has already brought a degree of new energy to the club and it's building. On the other hand, maybe the system of pledges would take money out of the fans pockets so they spend less going to football matches - that's another aspect for BuyHibs to consider.

If you think a new owner would bring about those changes then maybe Richard Skellet would be a better answer - he doesn't appear to be suggesting a pledge system now so it's win/win.

[Ozyhibby]

The number fans genuinely staying away because of the owner is debatable - personally I doubt if it's much more than a hundred. I also think their attitude is idiotic but that's just my opinion. The new management has already brought a degree of new energy to the club and it's building. On the other hand, maybe the system of pledges would take money out of the fans pockets so they spend less going to football matches - that's another aspect for BuyHibs to consider.

If you think a new owner would bring about those changes then maybe Richard Skellet would be a better answer - he doesn't appear to be suggesting a pledge system now so it's win/win.

You may be right on Richard Skellet. I'll wait and see what his proposal is.
Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.

[Peevemor]

You may be right on Richard Skellet. I'll wait and see what his proposal is.
Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.


Wow!

[w pilton hibby]

Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.

Assuming the board and owner go and we are still gash then the only thing left to change are the fans!!

[Ozyhibby]

Assuming the board and owner go and we are still gash then the only thing left to change are the fans!!

We've already got rid of thousands of them.
:-(

[Caversham Green]

You may be right on Richard Skellet. I'll wait and see what his proposal is.
Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.

Another reason might be that people keep posting on fans forums about how bad we are - 16 points off the pace in the second tier etc - rather than pointing out that we are unbeaten since September, playing attractive football and catching two of the three clubs ahead of us in the league. Should we remove those people too?

[Stevie Reid]

You may be right on Richard Skellet. I'll wait and see what his proposal is.
Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.

I asked you last week if you were impressed with BuyHibs, or simply shared their desire to put the boot into Hibs. You said you weren't impressed with BuyHibs - though that seems to have changed this week, despite their plans being no clearer.

It strikes me that you seem to be keen to simply rally against Hibs, as opposed to for a particular plan of action.

[grunt]

Her position is not under threat by the fans having a stake in the club.That may be the case now, after the fans on here kicked up a fuss. But let's not forget that BuyHibs original view was that the positions of LD and AS were both under threat. If you're talking about people making mistakes, let's not forget that BuyHibs made a big mistake with their initial comments re LD and AS. IMO.

[grunt]

... cutting the player budget while keeping premier league prices for this season ... major decisions I think she got wrong. Do you think that all of the income that the club gets comes from season ticket holders. I expect we will have lost a huge amount of revenue from the SPFL from dropping down a league, plus losing out on substantial amounts of TV money. If you think it was a mistake to cut the player budget, what other costs would you (or BuyHibs) have cut instead?

[BuyHibs]

That may be the case now, after the fans on here kicked up a fuss. But let's not forget that BuyHibs original view was that the positions of LD and AS were both under threat. If you're talking about people making mistakes, let's not forget that BuyHibs made a big mistake with their initial comments re LD and AS. IMO.

Simply not true. Never was there anything other than support for Alan Stubbs. The comment about the board was badly worded I will admit and was changed when pointed out. We are trying to find a way forward and have stated that we feel the board who where in place during last season have failed us.

[Keith_M]

What is it about the OWNER that is keeping lots of fans away from Easter Road? There have been lots of posts commenting on the difference between owner, board, executive etc - do you follow the arguments?

Is the proposal really that changing the owner in itself will bring fans back to the stadium?


I don't think there is anything about STF that is keeping Fans away from ER.

However, STF and Petrie come as a package. Remember the 100 Rod Petrie's comment from Farmer? That could well be a motivation for many that the only way to get rid of Petrie is by a change of Owner.

-------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I think this is about the third time I have answered that question to you directly. Could you at least acknowledge the answer this time, and give your opinion on it? Cheers.

[scoopyboy]

Have you never spoken to a Stay away Hibs fan who has said they will not be back until Petrie is away?
Only by changing owner can he be removed.

Most I have spoken to it's the quality of football and results that is keeping them away, they couldn't give a toss who the owner is.

[grunt]

Simply not true. Never was there anything other than support for Alan Stubbs. The comment about the board was badly worded I will admit and was changed when pointed out. We are trying to find a way forward and have stated that we feel the board who where in place during last season have failed us.
I'm sorry and you are right - the second name in the Q&A was George Craig not Alan Stubbs. My mistake. However the consensus here seems to be that George is doing a good job in his role as Director of Football Operations. I agree with you that the comment about the Board was badly worded.

[southsider]

We've already got rid of thousands of them.
:-(
People, i am afraid, have gotten out of the habit of attending football matches. don't know if we will ever get them back. A big name signing in the xmas window might just do the trick. When my Euro million numbers come up its Griffiths and Anya for ER.

[BuyHibs]

I'm sorry and you are right - the second name in the Q&A was George Craig not Alan Stubbs. My mistake. However the consensus here seems to be that George is doing a good job in his role as Director of Football Operations. I agree with you that the comment about the Board was badly worded.

It was corrected and the board, who remain in place with a couple of new additions where the ones who we feel have let us down.

[oconnors_strip]

I asked you last week if you were impressed with BuyHibs, or simply shared their desire to put the boot into Hibs. You said you weren't impressed with BuyHibs - though that seems to have changed this week, despite their plans being no clearer.

It strikes me that you seem to be keen to simply rally against Hibs, as opposed to for a particular plan of action.

Not putting words in to this users mouth but after attending the Wednesday meeting maybe buyhibs plans have became a bit clearer to them personally?

I know it did for myself, it's always better and easier to understand a campaign when you hear it rather than read it

[Phil D. Rolls]

You may be right on Richard Skellet. I'll wait and see what his proposal is.
Despite all the good work of Leeann and Alan the fans are still not coming back. Every possible reason behind this needs to be removed. The board and owner are two of them.

I've not been back because the atmosphere in the support is fractious. Removing the current owner without a viable alternative would not make me more confident that this would change.

[Stevie Reid]

Not putting words in to this users mouth but after attending the Wednesday meeting maybe buyhibs plans have became a bit clearer to them personally?

I know it did for myself, it's always better and easier to understand a campaign when you hear it rather than read it

Of course I realise that is perfectly possible - though quite what can be elucidated about their plans verbally that can't be written down anywhere, I'm really not sure.

[Ozyhibby]

I asked you last week if you were impressed with BuyHibs, or simply shared their desire to put the boot into Hibs. You said you weren't impressed with BuyHibs - though that seems to have changed this week, despite their plans being no clearer.

It strikes me that you seem to be keen to simply rally against Hibs, as opposed to for a particular plan of action.

I don't accept the premise of your question. I have no desire to put the boot into Hibs and I doubt BuyHibs do either.
You asked what changed, I went to the meeting, asked questions and challenged them on why their engagement on here had been poor.
They explained what their motivations were, what they hoped to achieve and admitted that their start on here was not great and they would be working to change that.
For now, I'm willing to give them a second chance. They still have a lot of questions to answer but it's only 3 weeks since they launched so deserve a bit of time.

[southsider]

Perhaps we should just leave STF as a safety net and start up the D/D's for Leanne and AS to run the Football Club ? Thoughts ???

[shellyt]

The buyhibs proposal is that stf had some shares left. It's on the website

[Stevie Reid]

I don't accept the premise of your question. I have no desire to put the boot into Hibs and I doubt BuyHibs do either.
You asked what changed, I went to the meeting, asked questions and challenged them on why their engagement on here had been poor.
They explained what their motivations were, what they hoped to achieve and admitted that their start on here was not great and they would be working to change that.
For now, I'm willing to give them a second chance. They still have a lot of questions to answer but it's only 3 weeks since they launched so deserve a bit of time.

I'm glad that you feel that your engagement with them has been worthwhile, though as I mentioned in an earlier reply to another poster, I really don't understand what can be said verbally to enlighten people that cannot be written down in a press release or on a forum. Yes, the group is in its infancy, but a clear business plan should be the thing that they launch with, not something that is formulated in (what seems to me) a haphazard way as they go along.

I'll take your word for it re: you putting the boot into Hibs, but BuyHibs alluding to STF assest stripping Hibs last week suggests to me that they are happy to do so.

[BuyHibs]

I'm glad that you feel that your engagement with them has been worthwhile, though as I mentioned in an earlier reply to another poster, I really don't understand what can be said verbally to enlighten people that cannot be written down in a press release or on a forum. Yes, the group is in its infancy, but a clear business plan should be the thing that they launch with, not something that is formulated in (what seems to me) a haphazard way as they go along.

I'll take your word for it re: you putting the boot into Hibs, but BuyHibs alluding to STF assest stripping Hibs last week suggests to me that they are happy to do so.

We are not putting the boot into Hibs. We want to ensure that all the assets that the fans have paid for remain an asset of the football club going forward. We have made it clear we think it is vital that the football club, the stadium and east mains remain together for the long term future of the club. Given that it's really the fans that have paid for them I am sure many would agree.

[jacomo]

Should we not be debating the present and the future, instead of what happened in the past? Mistakes that were made have already been or are being addressed.

You can't define the debate on your terms - I thought you'd realise this by now. It's clear that you think all the problems of the past have been rectified and we are now in a glowing new era for Hibs... but obviously others don't agree.

Many of them are season ticket holders, most of them have been pouring their hard-earned money into the club for years and rightfully p***** off. The main man in charge throughout still holds the most senior post within the club.

[grunt]

Given that it's really the fans that have paid for them I am sure many would agree.That's one way of looking at it I suppose. It's incorrect of course, but I guess it's a view you could take.

[CropleyWasGod]

We are not putting the boot into Hibs. We want to ensure that all the assets that the fans have paid for remain an asset of the football club going forward. We have made it clear we think it is vital that the football club, the stadium and east mains remain together for the long term future of the club. Given that it's really the fans that have paid for them I am sure many would agree.

Can you define that?

[Peevemor]

You can't define the debate on your terms - I thought you'd realise this by now. It's clear that you think all the problems of the past have been rectified and we are now in a glowing new era for Hibs... but obviously others don't agree.

Many of them are season ticket holders, most of them have been pouring their hard-earned money into the club for years and rightfully p***** off. The main man in charge throughout still holds the most senior post within the club.

Sorry, I disagree. For me, issues that were addressed 5+ months ago are no longer a valid argument. If people want to suggest improvements on the current set up then I'm all for it. It's just that nobody has... yet.

[grunt]

Can you define that?I hope you're not going to get all technical on us! :wink:

[BuyHibs]

Can you define that?

By the football club, the entity that is registered to play under the football authorities and hold the player registrations. Ideally if we could have the existing entity converted into a CIC and the stadium and em held within it then that would be a fine move. Would you agree?

[jacomo]

Sorry, I disagree. For me, issues that were addressed 5+ months ago are no longer a valid argument. If people want to suggest improvements on the current set up then I'm all for it. It's just that nobody has... yet.

You're repeating yourself.

I know you think that the 'issues' have been addressed... but many do not. Refusing to acknowledge this won't get us anywhere.

My own view is that Hibs are currently a work in progress - LD has made an encouraging but far from flawless start, and I am increasingly impressed by AS and what he is doing. I don't think any of us can take a sensible view on the wider changes made to the 'football department' (how I hate that phrase) yet, because it's simply too early to tell.

Assuming that all will be rosy from now on, and the club now has a clear vision, is naive. There have been far too many basic mistakes for me to have faith in that.

[CropleyWasGod]

By the football club, the entity that is registered to play under the football authorities and hold the player registrations. Ideally if we could have the existing entity converted into a CIC and the stadium and em held within it then that would be a fine move. Would you agree?

That isn't what you say on your website.

"to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company".

Has this changed?

[BuyHibs]

That isn't what you say on your website.

"to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company".

Has this changed?

We are open to the best solution and conversion may well be the best. Parts will evolve and change and we would
Rather retain flexibility to get to the best place.

[CropleyWasGod]

We are open to the best solution and conversion may well be the best. Parts will evolve and change and we would
Rather retain flexibility to get to the best place.

Ok thanks.

Are you aware that, by converting, you will inherit all of the debt of the current company? I realise that you would like STF to deal with the bank and inter-company debt, but that is not the entire debt.

You would also take on that part of EM that you have previously said you would prefer not to have.

[Peevemor]

You're repeating yourself.

I know you think that the 'issues' have been addressed... but many do not. Refusing to acknowledge this won't get us anywhere.

My own view is that Hibs are currently a work in progress - LD has made an encouraging but far from flawless start, and I am increasingly impressed by AS and what he is doing. I don't think any of us can take a sensible view on the wider changes made to the 'football department' (how I hate that phrase) yet, because it's simply too early to tell.

Assuming that all will be rosy from now on, and the club now has a clear vision, is naive. There have been far too many basic mistakes for me to have faith in that.

I agree, but at present no firm alternative proposal for the future has been revealed.

[Stevie Reid]

We are not putting the boot into Hibs. We want to ensure that all the assets that the fans have paid for remain an asset of the football club going forward. We have made it clear we think it is vital that the football club, the stadium and east mains remain together for the long term future of the club. Given that it's really the fans that have paid for them I am sure many would agree.

Well, the "Think about what Hibernian FC would look like if we were stripped of our assets…" post was scaremongering at the very least IMO.

[BuyHibs]

Ok thanks.

Are you aware that, by converting, you will inherit all of the debt of the current company? I realise that you would like STF to deal with the bank and inter-company debt, but that is not the entire debt.

You would also take on that part of EM that you have previously said you would prefer not to have.

If we could get all into a CIC at acceptable price including the debt, the CIC would then work with the bank. The additional land at me would be a bonus and could potentially be used to increase revenue.

All depends on the price and agreement re structure

[BuyHibs]

Well, the "Think about what Hibernian FC would look like if we were stripped of our assets…" post was scaremongering at the very least IMO.

We have seen the negative effect it has had on other football clubs if they no longer retain control over their stadium, Coventry is a recent example and our aim would be that that can never happen.

[CropleyWasGod]

If we could get all into a CIC at acceptable price including the debt, the CIC would then work with the bank. The additional land at me would be a bonus and could potentially be used to increase revenue.

All depends on the price and agreement re structure

Thanks for this.

You will understand, though, that your answers today don't completely correspond to previous comments, on here and on your website.

[Andy74]

We have seen the negative effect it has had on other football clubs if they no longer retain control over their stadium, Coventry is a recent example and our aim would be that that can never happen.

Can you explain how that differs from the current owner's view?

[blackpoolhibs]

Thanks for this.

You will understand, though, that your answers today don't completely correspond to previous comments, on here and on your website.

How many mistakes are they going to apologise for and expect folk to take them serious, and they have only been going a short while?

[Andy74]

Thanks for this.

You will understand, though, that your answers today don't completely correspond to previous comments, on here and on your website.

Some might say they are the complete opposite of previous answers.

[Andy74]

If we could get all into a CIC at acceptable price including the debt, the CIC would then work with the bank. The additional land at me would be a bonus and could potentially be used to increase revenue.

All depends on the price and agreement re structure

Any examples, outwith football even, of banks forgiving debt when it is being fully serviced and is more than covered by assets?

[Ozyhibby]

Any examples, outwith football even, of banks forgiving debt when it is being fully serviced and is more than covered by assets?

Is it fully covered by assets? Ibrox and Murray park could only fetch £5m. Tynecastle £2.5m.
What makes Easter road and East main different that they would cover the cost of our debt. How much is our debt? £10m?

[CropleyWasGod]

Is it fully covered by assets? Ibrox and Murray park could only fetch £5m. Tynecastle £2.5m.
What makes Easter road and East main different that they would cover the cost of our debt. How much is our debt? £10m?

If it weren't, we would be insolvent, and would have stopped trading, pending administration.

And, of course you know that the examples you give don't correspond to our situation :)

[Ozyhibby]

Can you explain how that differs from the current owner's view?

Leeann Dempster floated the idea of separating the club from the stadium and training centre at the recent supporters meetings.
That is something that would concern a lot of Hibs fans.

[Peevemor]

Leeann Dempster floated the idea of separating the club from the stadium and training centre at the recent supporters meetings.
That is something that would concern a lot of Hibs fans.

Unless the property was put into a trust of some sort.

[Andy74]

Leeann Dempster floated the idea of separating the club from the stadium and training centre at the recent supporters meetings.
That is something that would concern a lot of Hibs fans.

Not if you knew the context in which it was raised it wouldn't.

[Andy74]

Is it fully covered by assets? Ibrox and Murray park could only fetch £5m. Tynecastle £2.5m.
What makes Easter road and East main different that they would cover the cost of our debt. How much is our debt? £10m?

According to the accounts yes it is.

[Ozyhibby]

According to the accounts yes it is.

According to the new rangers accounts Ibrox is worth about £60m
Did Hearts accounts under Romanov not show Tynecastle worth a ridiculous amount as well?

[Mikey]

Not if you knew the context in which it was raised it wouldn't.

I think I'm right in saying that it didn't warrant a mention at the time and only became an issue when Hands On Hibs brought it up.

As you say, context is everything.

[Andy74]

According to the new rangers accounts Ibrox is worth about £60m
Did Hearts accounts under Romanov not show Tynecastle worth a ridiculous amount as well?

I don't know or care what they had or have in their accounts or what the assets went for in liquidation and administrations scenarios.

My question, which was to Buy Hibs, was are there are any examples of banks forgiving debt when it is being serviced normally and when the amount is in any case covered by assets.

[Andy74]

I think I'm right in saying that it didn't warrant a mention at the time and only became an issue when Hands On Hibs brought it up.

As you say, context is everything.

It was in the context of talking about other models. 3 were discussed. I think it was maybe Dunfermline were the stadium was put into a separate entity which was 51% owned by a fans trust. It was designed to safeguard the property regardless of what happened to the other company.

Leeann asked if that sort of set up was palatable or not but really just in the context of taking about all the possible models.

It's also important to say that at the time anyway she was very clear that all she was doing was reacting to approaches to her about buying the club and was pushing it back to us to decide what we really wanted and what we were willing to pay for it.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't know or care what they had or have in their accounts or what the assets went for in liquidation and administrations scenarios.

My question, which was to Buy Hibs, was are there are any examples of banks forgiving debt when it is being serviced normally and when the amount is in any case covered by assets.

And I disputed the last part of your question, where you claim our assets are worth more than our debt. You got back to me quoting our accounts and I pointed out that valuations in companies accounts can't always be relied upon and gave a couple of examples.

[Andy74]

And I disputed the last part of your question, where you claim our assets are worth more than our debt. You got back to me quoting our accounts and I pointed out that valuations in companies accounts can't always be relied upon and gave a couple of examples.

Okay, so you are disputing the accounts now?

The bank will rely on those by the way so my question, which wasn't to you anyway, stands.

[CropleyWasGod]

And I disputed the last part of your question, where you claim our assets are worth more than our debt. You got back to me quoting our accounts and I pointed out that valuations in companies accounts can't always be relied upon and gave a couple of examples.

... neither of which example, as I said, corresponds to our situation.

Again, if our debts exceed the value of our assets, we shouldn't be trading.

[Peevemor]

And I disputed the last part of your question, where you claim our assets are worth more than our debt. You got back to me quoting our accounts and I pointed out that valuations in companies accounts can't always be relied upon and gave a couple of examples.

As a piece of land, you could argue that ER is overvalued in the accounts. As one of the best sport stadia in Scotland it isn't.

What are BuyHibs looking to do with it, play football or build flats?

[Ozyhibby]

Okay, so you are disputing the accounts now?

The bank will rely on those by the way so my question, which wasn't to you anyway, stands.

I'm not disputing the accounts. I never tried to answer your question.

[Ozyhibby]

As a piece of land, you could argue that ER is overvalued in the accounts. As one of the best sport stadia in Scotland it isn't.

What are BuyHibs looking to do with it, play football or build flats?

Within a CIC football is all that could be done at Easter road. I'm sure they have mentioned this.

[BuyHibs]

Thanks for this.

You will understand, though, that your answers today don't completely correspond to previous comments, on here and on your website.

We are always looking to find different or better ways forward and this is an option that may offer a better way to progress.

We will look to update the website. Apologies but we are looking at options on an ongoing basis and after the meetings during the week

[Andy74]

I'm not disputing the accounts. I never tried to answer your question.

To be fair Buy Hibs haven't either.

[BuyHibs]

Can you explain how that differs from the current owner's view?

The owner and board have said their proposals will be announced shortly and we can compare then

[BuyHibs]

How many mistakes are they going to apologise for and expect folk to take them serious, and they have only been going a short while?

Options and different approaches can result in other ways forward , we don't call this a mistake more an update after and plans evolving. Surely that's a good thing

[BuyHibs]

Any examples, outwith football even, of banks forgiving debt when it is being fully serviced and is more than covered by assets?

We are not aware what value the bank place on the assets or if god forbid the values had to be realised what they would be. The accounts will show some book value we expect

[Andy74]

The owner and board have said their proposals will be announced shortly and we can compare then

They have said that they will be presenting on the strategy for the future of the club. I'm not sure whether or not this includes the future ownership.

In any case I think you know what I was asking. You were taking about how football clubs lose control of the stadium and how that can have a detremetnal effect on the club. Like at Coventry.

Do you think your view on that is different from the current owner? Remember that what people are having to judge here is whether we will be better off or more secure under new ownership. Do you think Sir Tom would allow the stadium to be split from the club in any way other than a solution that was in the best interests of the club and its fans?

That has been suggested a couple of times now. To keep putting this forward you must be saying you believe that it could be separated in a way that is not in our interests?

[Andy74]

We are not aware what value the bank place on the assets or if god forbid the values had to be realised what they would be. The accounts will show some book value we expect

I can tell you that the bank will operate on the basis that it relies on the accounts of the company.

It will also assess any risk on the probability of the assets having to be realised in a distressed state and it will take into account whether payments are being made currently and can continue to be made for the term of the agreement. Having a personal guarantee from an owner with significant assets also helps.

This is quite central to your plans. What examples is it based on for you to be planning for forgiveness from the bank?

[Ozyhibby]

Under both models it appears the stadium is secure.
What about the team on the pitch?

[CropleyWasGod]

We are always looking to find different or better ways forward and this is an option that may offer a better way to progress.

We will look to update the website. Apologies but we are looking at options on an ongoing basis and after the meetings during the week
Can you also look at ways of improving your communications, particularly on here, please? ;)

[Andy74]

Can you also look at ways of improving your communications, particularly on here, please? ;)

Much of this goes to fundamental basis of strategy though, not just the communication of it.

[Ozyhibby]

Much of this goes to fundamental basis of strategy though, not just the communication of it.

What's the fundamental basis of strategy the club is working to just now?

[Andy74]

What's the fundamental basis of strategy the club is working to just now?

No idea. When and if they are asking for some of my money I will scrutinise that too.

If it's all the same with you I will just address and answer stuff from the people involved when I want to know something.

You may think you are helping them but you're not really.

[Peevemor]

What's the fundamental basis of strategy the club is working to just now?

We'll have to wait and see. LD has been in the job about 6 months and as well as the changes already made/underway, I'm fairly certain that her remit will include the preparation of a long-term strategy for the future of the club.

[BuyHibs]

Can you also look at ways of improving your communications, particularly on here, please? ;)

Yes, we are looking to make improvements and take onboard feedback.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes, we are looking to make improvements and take onboard feedback.

It was a gentle prod....hence the smiley.

I'm sure you know what I meant :)

[BuyHibs]

They have said that they will be presenting on the strategy for the future of the club. I'm not sure whether or not this includes the future ownership.

In any case I think you know what I was asking. You were taking about how football clubs lose control of the stadium and how that can have a detremetnal effect on the club. Like at Coventry.

Do you think your view on that is different from the current owner? Remember that what people are having to judge here is whether we will be better off or more secure under new ownership. Do you think Sir Tom would allow the stadium to be split from the club in any way other than a solution that was in the best interests of the club and its fans?

That has been suggested a couple of times now. To keep putting this forward you must be saying you believe that it could be separated in a way that is not in our interests?

We don't believe it is wise for the stadium to be separated from the club and owned elsewhere. We are very keen to see what plans are in place for the stadium and east mains.

[Jonnyboy]

Leeann Dempster floated the idea of separating the club from the stadium and training centre at the recent supporters meetings.
That is something that would concern a lot of Hibs fans.

She did indeed and at the same time she explained that if that happened it would be to ensure complete safety of all the components. To take that as an indication of asset stripping is just nonsense

[BuyHibs]

It was a gentle prod....hence the smiley.

Your feedback is always welcome and constructive. we are aware of the task ahead and trying to spend more time answering questions is one way forward.

It's nearly match day and that is priority to
Back the team and keep up the momentum on the road

[Ozyhibby]

She did indeed and at the same time she explained that if that happened it would be to ensure complete safety of all the components. To take that as an indication of asset stripping is just nonsense

I didn't. I'm not at all worried about anybody asset stripping us.

[Jonnyboy]

I didn't. I'm not at all worried about anybody asset stripping us.

You may not be ........... :wink:

[Andy74]

We don't believe it is wise for the stadium to be separated from the club and owned elsewhere. We are very keen to see what plans are in place for the stadium and east mains.

Okay but you are trying to buy the club for a reason I presume? What if the plan is to carry on with current arrangements in relation to stadium and East mains. The current arrangements were made at some loss to the company that built the early stands I think.

Should I pay money to try and fund buying it anyway. For what gain?

[Andy74]

I can tell you that the bank will operate on the basis that it relies on the accounts of the company.

It will also assess any risk on the probability of the assets having to be realised in a distressed state and it will take into account whether payments are being made currently and can continue to be made for the term of the agreement. Having a personal guarantee from an owner with significant assets also helps.

This is quite central to your plans. What examples is it based on for you to be planning for forgiveness from the bank?

Bump.

[BuyHibs]

Okay but you are trying to buy the club for a reason I presume? What if the plan is to carry on with current arrangements in relation to stadium and East mains. The current arrangements were made at some loss to the company that built the early stands I think.

Should I pay money to try and fund buying it anyway. For what gain?

We want a change if direction at the club for the simple reason it's needed to bring in investment to get the football team back into the top league and challenging for honours.

We don't know what the plans from the club are but we want to make sure they are the right ones and best ones for the team. I am glad you plan to scrutinise there plans in the same way. Debate is healthy

[SunshineOnLeith]

Since they seem to be answering questions...

From the BuyHibs website:


BuyHibs plan to ask the current owners – Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie – to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company.

Why is it ok for us to move all of our assets into a NewCo, (potentially) ditch historic debts, and carry on as before? When Rangers wanted to do that most people, myself included, made very clear we'd walk away from Scottish football altogether if it were allowed.

Or are BuyHibs suggesting we re-form and apply for entry at the bottom of the pyramid system that now exists?

[BuyHibs]

Bump.

Is there proof of a personal guarantee?

[BuyHibs]

Since they seem to be answering questions...

From the BuyHibs website:



Why is it ok for us to move all of our assets into a NewCo, (potentially) ditch historic debts, and carry on as before? When Rangers wanted to do that most people, myself included, made very clear we'd walk away from Scottish football altogether if it were allowed.

Or are BuyHibs suggesting we re-form and apply for entry at the bottom of the pyramid system that now exists?

As per earlier we are looking at range of options and it could be that the best plan is to convert the existing company to the CIC.

The plans evolve and we will
Look to update web.

[Ozyhibby]

No idea. When and if they are asking for some of my money I will scrutinise that too.

If it's all the same with you I will just address and answer stuff from the people involved when I want to know something.

You may think you are helping them but you're not really.

:-)

[Tyler Durden]

Bump.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30054170

For reference, I'm not supportive of Buy Hibs. However there are numerous examples which answer your questions. Bank rationale is partly related to capital adequacy rules which you can read about online.

[SunshineOnLeith]

As per earlier we are looking at range of options and it could be that the best plan is to convert the existing company to the CIC.

The plans evolve and we will
Look to update web.

Fundamentally, though, you must have thought the NewCo route acceptable, even if not ultimately desirable. Presumably, you wouldn't have put it on your website otherwise.

I'm curious why you think it's acceptable for us but not for Rangers?

[Ozyhibby]

Fundamentally, though, you must have thought the NewCo route acceptable, even if not ultimately desirable. Presumably, you wouldn't have put it on your website otherwise.

I'm curious why you think it's acceptable for us but not for Rangers?

Can an existing company be converted into a CIC?

[SunshineOnLeith]

Can an existing company be converted into a CIC?

Yes.

But that's not what the proposal on BuyHibs website is at present.

[Tyler Durden]

... neither of which example, as I said, corresponds to our situation.

Again, if our debts exceed the value of our assets, we shouldn't be trading.

Im sure you're well aware of the difference between balance sheet and cash flow insolvency. Lots of businesses operate with debt exceeding their assets.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes.

But that's not what the proposal on BuyHibs website is at present.

Ah I see. That should be easily fixed then.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm sure these buyhibs guys mean well but, how can they possibly expect folk to come forward with pledges when there is a complete lack of transparency re most of the fundamental questions on this thread.

Seems to be a case of "tell us we can have your dough then we'll tell you what we will do with it". Not a particularly appealing proposition.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Ah I see. That should be easily fixed then.

They've said in their own replies that the NewCo route is being considered, and have acknowledged that changing it to converting the existing company would be a change of direction. It's not a typo, it would be a fundamental alteration to their proposal.

Even if the NewCo route isn't ultimately deemed the preferred option, I'm curious why it was considered acceptable/workable enough to be their original proposal (it's headed as such) to potential investors, but was unacceptable when Rangers wanted to do it.

[Ozyhibby]

There was no mention of a newco at the meeting.

[Kaiser1962]

Is there proof of a personal guarantee?

Are you talking about a financial guarantee from STF?

[grunt]

There was no mention of a newco at the meeting.Our ProposalBuyHibs plan to ask the current owners – Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie – to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company.

[Ozyhibby]

Our ProposalBuyHibs plan to ask the current owners – Sir Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie – to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company.

Then they need to change that.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Then they need to change that.

All very confusing/misleading.......

[Caversham Green]

I won't quote all the posts here, but my understanding of the debt and security arrangements areas follows.

The debt relevant to this debate at 31 July 2013 was £6.67m and will have reduced to £6.3m at 31 July 2014. The accounts state only that this debt is secured - if it was secured on the stadium they would say that, so it follows that the security is a personal guarantee, and I believe this has been confirmed by the club or Sir Tom several times in the past. In these circumstances the value of the stadium is irrelevant, but the stated value in the accounts is not (and doesn't purport to be) the amount it could be sold for. Sir Tom and his companies hold security over the club's assets.

The personal guarantee is good for the current regime because it means low interest rates - Our rates are the lowest of all the clubs I've looked at - greater borrowing capacity and virtual immunity from insolvency. On the downside, banks are less likely to be receptive to a discount on immediate payment because repayment in full is almost certain. For BuyHibs it's not so good unless they can persuade Sir Tom to maintain his guarantee because the debt becomes more vulnerable in the bank's view so they are likely to try to renegotiate and would be unlikely to offer new finance if it was needed.

The bank might seek to call in the debt completely if the new ownership model converted to a CIC because the assets which the debts would be secured on would be locked in to the company and would only be of any value if the club was to be wound up. Conversion under the current regime would be less problematic because the PG would still be in place. However conversion is not really so important under community ownership because that would carry its own checks - it is still desirable though.

I think my first step would be to lobby the club to convert to a CIC now.

Some of the above is fact, but most is IMHO.

[marinello59]

I'm sure these buyhibs guys mean well but, how can they possibly expect folk to come forward with pledges when there is a complete lack of transparency re most of the fundamental questions on this thread.

Seems to be a case of "tell us we can have your dough then we'll tell you what we will do with it". Not a particularly appealing proposition.

To be fair if you lived in Australia then you would have been told more.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Then they need to change that.

And this:


The assets we would want to see transferred are:

The Hibernian Football Club Ltd
Easter Road Stadium
Hibernian Training Centre (known as “East Mains”)



and this:


Moving the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company would offer three key benefits for Hibs:

and this:


Therefore we publicly launched BuyHibs at the same time as approaching the current owners with four key questions:

Are the current owners willing to transfer the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company?

definitely this:


The funds raised will be used to buy shares in the new Community Interest Company.

and this:


Fans who are currently shareholders of Hibernian will retain their existing shares with the remaining 98% (currently owned by Hibernian Holdings) being transferred to the Community Interest Company.

and this:


WHAT ARE OUR AIMS?
We want to see the assets of Hibs transferred to a com
munity
interest company with Hib
s Fans
owning a majority interest

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair if you lived in Australia then you would have been told more.

Why is that?

[Baldy Foghorn]

Why is that?

Because the Aussie Hibs Fans were told who the Backer's are, whilst the fans here have had no such luxury.....

[marinello59]

Why is that?

I have no idea why that is. You'd need to ask the BuyHibs directors that.

[Kaiser1962]

We were told in July 2003 at one of the Straiton (Mk2) forums in the FF, by a guy called Colin McNeil who represented a firm called Crystal Blue (if my memory is still good) that the mortgage for the West Stand was only granted on a personal guarantee by STF. £4m was the figure mentioned (for the West) at that time.




I won't quote all the posts here, but my understanding of the debt and security arrangements areas follows.

The debt relevant to this debate at 31 July 2013 was £6.67m and will have reduced to £6.3m at 31 July 2014. The accounts state only that this debt is secured - if it was secured on the stadium they would say that, so it follows that the security is a personal guarantee, and I believe this has been confirmed by the club or Sir Tom several times in the past. In these circumstances the value of the stadium is irrelevant, but the stated value in the accounts is not (and doesn't purport to be) the amount it could be sold for. Sir Tom and his companies hold security over the club's assets.

The personal guarantee is good for the current regime because it means low interest rates - Our rates are the lowest of all the clubs I've looked at - greater borrowing capacity and virtual immunity from insolvency. On the downside, banks are less likely to be receptive to a discount on immediate payment because repayment in full is almost certain. For BuyHibs it's not so good unless they can persuade Sir Tom to maintain his guarantee because the debt becomes more vulnerable in the bank's view so they are likely to try to renegotiate and would be unlikely to offer new finance if it was needed.

The bank might seek to call in the debt completely if the new ownership model converted to a CIC because the assets which the debts would be secured on would be locked in to the company and would only be of any value if the club was to be wound up. Conversion under the current regime would be less problematic because the PG would still be in place. However conversion is not really so important under community ownership because that would carry its own checks - it is still desirable though.

I think my first step would be to lobby the club to convert to a CIC now.

Some of the above is fact, but most is IMHO.

[Andy74]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30054170

For reference, I'm not supportive of Buy Hibs. However there are numerous examples which answer your questions. Bank rationale is partly related to capital adequacy rules which you can read about online.

I can't access the link. Seems to play havoc with the Ipad.

I'm familiar with capital adequacy though, in fact I'm on my way back from a board meeting of a major UK bank.

I'd need to see the article but Id be surprised if serviceable debt to a very small scale business had anything to do with it.

[grunt]

I can't access the link. Seems to play havoc with the Ipad.
Try this - interesting article for the accounting chaps on here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30054170

[Tyler Durden]

I can't access the link. Seems to play havoc with the Ipad.

I'm familiar with capital adequacy though, in fact I'm on my way back from a board meeting of a major UK bank.

I'd need to see the article but Id be surprised if serviceable debt to a very small scale business had anything to do with it.

Not sure how to embed a link properly. It's an a feature on the SPL page on BBC football site. It's a bit simplistic but content refers to Killie, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen all having debt written off. If you can be bothered there is more detail reported elsewhere. So there are very clear precedents.

It would appear that the debt being serviced wouldn't preclude a write off.

[marinello59]

Not sure how to embed a link properly. It's an a feature on the SPL page on BBC football site. It's a bit simplistic but content refers to Killie, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen all having debt written off. If you can be bothered there is more detail reported elsewhere. So there are very clear precedents.

It would appear that the debt being serviced wouldn't preclude a write off.

I'm not so sure any of those examples will help make your case.

[Kaiser1962]

Not sure how to embed a link properly. It's an a feature on the SPL page on BBC football site. It's a bit simplistic but content refers to Killie, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen all having debt written off. If you can be bothered there is more detail reported elsewhere. So there are very clear precedents.

It would appear that the debt being serviced wouldn't preclude a write off.

I am not sure in Aberdeen's case, as it's the most recent, that "written off" is the proper description. Someone has paid it for them, and hats off to them for it.

[Tyler Durden]

I'm not so sure any of those examples will help make your case.

I don't have any case to make and not looking for a debate - the information has been widely reported.

BuyHibs are correctly being scrutinised. Like most on here I think they are a bit of a shambles. However this point was raised and there's lots of info in the public domain which answers the question.

[marinello59]

I don't have any case to make and not looking for a debate - the information has been widely reported.

BuyHibs are correctly being scrutinised. Like most on here I think they are a bit of a shambles. However this point was raised and there's lots of info in the public domain which answers the question.

Apologies, I wasn't having a dig.
I should simply have said, maybe not the best examples.

[Andy74]

I don't have any case to make and not looking for a debate - the information has been widely reported.

BuyHibs are correctly being scrutinised. Like most on here I think they are a bit of a shambles. However this point was raised and there's lots of info in the public domain which answers the question.
None of the examples are the same though. I don't see any way any bank would be prepared to write off what Is a pretty solid debt.
Relying on this shows either poor research or poor understanding.

[Caversham Green]

Not sure how to embed a link properly. It's an a feature on the SPL page on BBC football site. It's a bit simplistic but content refers to Killie, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen all having debt written off. If you can be bothered there is more detail reported elsewhere. So there are very clear precedents.

It would appear that the debt being serviced wouldn't preclude a write off.

The debts had been written down as doubtful on the bank's accounts years ago because of the financial situation of the clubs. That's unlikely to be the case with Hibs because of the personal guarantee. I'm not entirely convinced it's as basic as the articles suggest - I think I'm going to dig a bit deeper when the respective clubs' accounts are available.

[CropleyWasGod]

Im sure you're well aware of the difference between balance sheet and cash flow insolvency. Lots of businesses operate with debt exceeding their assets.

If a company is trading with an excess of liabilities, it will normally be doing so because of external help, eg a personal guarantee from a director, a large director's loan account or, as in the Yams case, because another company is supporting :rolleyes: it.

If that doesn't exist, and there's no reasonable prospect of it returning to solvency, it should cease trading.

This discussion came about as the result of someone saying that our debts exceeded our assets, which AFAIK is not true.

Note the AFAIK.... I still have waking nightmares about the accounts being late because the club are desperately trying to convince the auditors that they are a going concern. :eek:

[CropleyWasGod]

The debts had been written down as doubtful on the bank's accounts years ago because of the financial situation of the clubs. That's unlikely to be the case with Hibs because of the personal guarantee. I'm not entirely convinced it's as basic as the articles suggest - I think I'm going to dig a bit deeper when the respective clubs' accounts are available.

Just catching up here.

Doesn't a personal guarantee have to be expressly disclosed in the accounts? Or is that just when it is given by a director?

(Disclaimer.... none of my clients are lucky enough to have similar "lenders of last resort", so I don't know :cb)

[Tyler Durden]

None of the examples are the same though. I don't see any way any bank would be prepared to write off what Is a pretty solid debt.
Relying on this shows either poor research or poor understanding.

My problem here is that you're making lots of assumptions and criticising BuyHibs for apparently doing the same.

Shame they've not sought to answer you of course!

[shellyt]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point

[CropleyWasGod]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point

You call that green?

[shellyt]

You call that green?

Touché my friend

[Hibernia&Alba]

CWG examining every sentence with a jeweler's eyepiece. God help them. Dragon's Den would be easier :-D

[whiskyhibby]

Personally I need I lot more clarity before supporting this, in particular, if it all goes belly up how will the bought shares be destributed

[Mikey]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point

Could you explain the point you made last Friday night about the club being asset stripped? You logged off before getting a chance to answer it properly.

Ta.

[CropleyWasGod]

CWG examining every sentence with a jeweler's eyepiece. God help them. Dragon's Den would be easier :-D

Crap use of smileys.

I'm out.

:na na:

[shellyt]

Could you explain the point you made last Friday night about the club being asset stripped? You logged off before getting a chance to answer it properly.

Ta.

Was asked directly "can you please explain what has fuelled your conversation about the separation of the club and ER and EM.?"

Response was "think about what Hibernian FC would look like if we were stripped of our assets. "

Everything in context? No?

Cic locks assets: that surely is a good thing

[CropleyWasGod]

Was asked directly "can you please explain what has fuelled your conversation about the separation of the club and ER and EM.?"

Response was "think about what Hibernian FC would look like if we were stripped of our assets. "

Everything in context? No?

Cic locks assets: that surely is a good thing

To be fair, it was the use of the words "stripped" and "assets" that worked people up. Sinister when used together.........

There are those who think that the separation of the club and the fixed assets may be a good thing. For example, the FA being held in trust. As your colleague suggested earlier, there is more than one "right way" to do this.

[shellyt]

To be fair, it was the use of the words "stripped" and "assets" that worked people up. Sinister when used together.........

There are those who think that the separation of the club and the fixed assets may be a good thing. For example, the FA being held in trust. As your colleague suggested earlier, there is more than one "right way" to do this.

Sinister when those words were nothing to do with the response.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sinister when those words were nothing to do with the response.

Sorry, I don't get you.

You used the words in the same sentence, which is my point. People, understandably, read that as a suggestion of something sinister. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come across as such, but you can understand the reaction, no?

[superfurryhibby]

Despite the scrutiny on here and the commitment of some to relentlessly re-state the same points, 67% of folk are still open to some form of perversion.

Before you ask....NO!

If you don't know the answer then I'm not sure of question :na na:

[shellyt]

Guess so.

Think that no matter what is said that people will take/read what they want into it.

It's fair enough. People are entitled to their opinions or will indeed be influenced by others.


Was merely responding to a direct question and used the same language.

[marinello59]

Despite the scrutiny on here and the commitment of some to relentlessly re-state the same points, 67% of folk are still open to some form of perversion.

Before you ask....NO!

If you don't know the answer then I'm not sure of question :na na:

:greengrin
Did you mean persuasion?

[CropleyWasGod]

:greengrin
Did you mean persuasion?

Ahhhhhh.... thank you for that.

I was struggling with how he defined "perversion", and was thinking that 67% was a tad low.....:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Despite the scrutiny on here and the commitment of some to relentlessly re-state the same points, 67% of folk are still open to some form of perversion.

Before you ask....NO!

If you don't know the answer then I'm not sure of question :na na:

That's at Hearts

[grunt]

Was merely responding to a direct question and used the same language.The same language? I don't think so. Here's the exchange:


Can you please explain what has fuelled your concern about the separation of club and ER and EM?


Think about what Hibernian FC would look like if we were stripped of our assets…

[shellyt]

Fair enough

[shellyt]

The same language? I don't think so. Here's the exchange:

Again. You didn't share the full message
but hey. That's ok.

[grunt]

Again. You didn't share the full message
but hey. That's ok.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Both posts were quoted in full.

[blackpoolhibs]

i'm embarrassed at the level of incompetence and indeed arrogance some of the folk representing buyhibs have and are displaying on here.

I'd guess that a large majority of fans do want change, but don't want this lot.

If i was an investor, i'd not want any of these people speaking for me. And any investor who was looking for pledges in the future, might want to ask just why they were not reaching their targets as they surely wont.

Reading this message board for 5 minutes will give them all the answers they need.

[Ozyhibby]

i'm embarrassed at the level of incompetence and indeed arrogance some of the folk representing buyhibs have and are displaying on here.

I'd guess that a large majority of fans do want change, but don't want this lot.

If i was an investor, i'd not want any of these people speaking for me. And any investor who was looking for pledges in the future, might want to ask just why they were not reaching their targets as they surely wont.

Reading this message board for 5 minutes will give them all the answers they need.

There is only one BuyHibs account is there not?

[CropleyWasGod]

There is only one BuyHibs account is there not?

There is, but a number of different people use it.

[Peevemor]

There is, but a number of different people use it.

Oh right! I thought there was some
sort of multiple personality disorder thing going on! :greengrin:

[Ozyhibby]

There is, but a number of different people use it.

Ah, I see. I thought there was maybe someone else posting on their behalf that I had missed.

[scoopyboy]

There is, but a number of different people use it.

That in itself is doing them no favours.

[scoopyboy]

i'm embarrassed at the level of incompetence and indeed arrogance some of the folk representing buyhibs have and are displaying on here.

I'd guess that a large majority of fans do want change, but don't want this lot.

If i was an investor, i'd not want any of these people speaking for me. And any investor who was looking for pledges in the future, might want to ask just why they were not reaching their targets as they surely wont.

Reading this message board for 5 minutes will give them all the answers they need.

That's where I am Blackpool.

[jacomo]

The debts had been written down as doubtful on the bank's accounts years ago because of the financial situation of the clubs. That's unlikely to be the case with Hibs because of the personal guarantee. I'm not entirely convinced it's as basic as the articles suggest - I think I'm going to dig a bit deeper when the respective clubs' accounts are available.

You make a good point.

However it's happened though, it's now the case that Killie, Dundee Utd and soon Aberdeen will all be debt free. Other clubs in the top flight are breaking even or propped up by an owner. Celtic are Celtic. Quite a few clubs we would like to compete with are in a better financial position than Hibs.

That, if I may, is a FACT. :wink:

Hibs' assets are unsellable, regardless of their nominal value. For a company whose assets are extremely illiquid, we are carrying a pretty hefty debt, and their doesn't seem to have been much of a turnaround in trading yet.


Here's the bbc report again for those that want it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30054170

[lucky]

I just don't understand why they can't be more open and honest. They have been asked direct questions but seem to take offence at this. These people need to get real. They are asking Hibs fans to pledge them money but seem to think that they are doing us a favour.

[bigwheel]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point


After reading the exchanges last night - I have to say I am stunned.......In what way do you feel some of your posts (like this) will help your cause ?? Perhaps ask yourself why you are not getting the support you hoped for as opposed to being flippant to the people on here..

[Caversham Green]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point


You make a good point.

However it's happened though, it's now the case that Killie, Dundee Utd and soon Aberdeen will all be debt free. Other clubs in the top flight are breaking even or propped up by an owner. Celtic are Celtic. Quite a few clubs we would like to compete with are in a better financial position than Hibs.

That, if I may, is a FACT. :wink:

Hibs' assets are unsellable, regardless of their nominal value. For a company whose assets are extremely illiquid, we are carrying a pretty hefty debt, and their doesn't seem to have been much of a turnaround in trading yet.


Here's the bbc report again for those that want it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30054170

The point I and others have been trying to make is that the circumstances surrounding the debt 'write off' enjoyed by Kilmarnock, Dundee United etc are materially different from those prevailing at Hibs and BuyHibs would be extremely foolish to work on the assumption that our club will get the same treatment. My view is that in the absence of assurances to the contrary they should be working on the assumption that they will be taking on the full debt as well as the assets. That will in theory make the purchase price much lower and then any debt forgiveness will be a windfall.

If the club thought they could obtain any debt forgiveness I'm sure they would have tried it already. Likewise, if Rod and Sir Tom could have predicted the extent and consequences of the global banking crisis a decade before it happened I'm sure they would have done things differently - they couldn't and didn't so we have to play the hand we've got rather than the one we wish we had.

[Caversham Green]

Just catching up here.

Doesn't a personal guarantee have to be expressly disclosed in the accounts? Or is that just when it is given by a director?

(Disclaimer.... none of my clients are lucky enough to have similar "lenders of last resort", so I don't know :cb)

The only time I dealt with similar circumstances the wording was something like "The loans are secured by a shareholder's guarantee". The person in question didn't want to be identified and there was much navel-gazing before we decided that was acceptable. In Hibs' case the wording is simply "The loans are secured" but then it wouldn't take a genius to work out who the shareholder was so presumably KPMG think it's OK.

[Andy74]

My problem here is that you're making lots of assumptions and criticising BuyHibs for apparently doing the same.

Shame they've not sought to answer you of course!

What assumptions? Their material talks about the banks forgiving debt. I know how banks work so was looking for the examples they based their reliance or hope for this on.

[Tyler Durden]

There is, but a number of different people use it.

With all their talk of learning lessons as the project develops, the first lesson should be stop posting on Hibs.net! Their credibility diminishes with every post.

[CropleyWasGod]

With all their talk of learning lessons as the project develops, the first lesson should be stop posting on Hibs.net! Their credibility diminishes with every post.
I actually thought that yesterday's session was their best to date. It sounded like they had taken on board some of the advice and feedback that had been given.

Not sure who was responsible for that, but maybe that's a lesson in itself :)

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've not been following this closely, but a couple of things spring to mind.

Firstly, BuyHibs supporters really need to realise they are in a hole and stop digging. I think they demonstrate a lack of cohesive thinking from within their group, and a total lack of respect for those they are trying to convince.

We are being asked to trust a group of people who have very poor communication skills, and who appear to be taking turn about at choosing a strategy for the future of Hibs. It doesn't augur well for the future of the club if they were to be put in charge. I get the impression that it would be absolutely chaotic as Duty Chairman for the day outlined his vision for the future and how it is going to happen.

On top of bringing their shambolic organisational skills to running the club they want our money. Do they do anything to reassure us that they will be diligent in looking after it? It doesn't seem so because any criticism directed at them is either side stepped or met with a flippant answer.

As well as all this they are talking about going to the bank and trying to welsh out of the club's debts. Sorry, I've already seen that comedy this year, and do not want anything to do with that "big club" way of going about business. Being debt free to these monkeys just means another opportunity to ramp up debts.

[matty_f]

Can we be clear on something here, Hibs.net as a site has no opinion on BuyHibs. Hibs.net is a platform for others to air their views. It is a website and therefore has no emotional response to anything.
The admin team will have their own opinion on BuyHibs, in the same way we have our own opinions on who's best at left-back, or whether a diamond formation is better than a 4-5-1. The admin team do not take a stance on an issue and collectively agree to back it. If we agree with each other it's because there is common ground. (The exception being the statement we released around the time we were relegated, ironically enough because we unanimously agreed that Rod Petrie should leave (because we all love the board, you understand :rolleyes: ) )

On a personal level, I am utterly sick of folk implying that there's some anti-BuyHibs agenda being driven by the admin team. It's immature, irrational pish, which frankly, folk should be old enough to know better about. What I see is a small number of posters on either side of the debate arguing their case. Folk are asking pertinent questions about the proposal before they agree to commit money to it. That's their perogative and, IMHO, a perfectly sensible approach to take.

People should be big enough and adult enough to accept that there is going to be a different opinion, and just because there is and someone voices it, it doesn't mean that they're anti-anything.

This idea that a website can somehow have an agenda is bizarre. Look at the threads, as an admin team we're not editing or deleting anything that sticks within the site rules, the exact same as we do with every other topic being discussed. If someone takes that as the admin team having an agenda, or even more moronically,think that hibs.net as a site has an agenda, then I'm sorry but you really shouldn't be on here without adult supervision or something.

The fact that we've got one of the directors of BuyHibs coming on an implying it just leaves me astonished. Coming on and slating the users of a forum that has a membership into the thousands, from which BuyHibs presumably want to get people pledging to them, seems an absolutely insane thing to do. I feel for Lee (presuming Lee was using the BuyHibs account yesterday), some good responses were totally undone by some random mud-slinging last night. Mental.

If folk could show each other a bit of respect and understand that you can have a polarised opinion on something without it being agenda driven, then this debate could progress and evolve in a sensible, constructive, and rational manner. We'd also be in a much better place if people could figure out that if a number of people share the same opinion, and all of them voice that opinion, and those people outnumber the people that share and voice the opposite opinion, then the debate is going to look one-sided. That's nothing to do with folk being sheep or having agendas, that's just folk thinking along the same lines. It's not rocket-science, FFS.

My last tuppence-worth on this topic, and I must stress this is not the opinion of the admin team, just my own - if you don't like hibs.net, or its users, then either bring something to the table tom improve it, or don't use the site. Nobody's forcing you to come on here.

[Tyler Durden]

What assumptions? Their material talks about the banks forgiving debt. I know how banks work so was looking for the examples they based their reliance or hope for this on.

1. How the debt is secured.
2. How the bank view the value of the assets.
3. That Hibs are different due to the above.

You are giving an opinion on the above. Previously I linked to that bbc report but I did suggest it was a simplistic summary. There have been other media reports providing more detail on these other clubs negotiations.

[Andy74]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point

Are you with BuyHibs then?

Poor attitude to the scrutiny. We have in this thread lawyers, accountants and corporate governance experts as well as being interested fans.

Comments like this about debate don't help your case.

[Andy74]

1. How the debt is secured.
2. How the bank view the value of the assets.
3. That Hibs are different due to the above.

You are giving an opinion on the above. Previously I linked to that bbc report but I did suggest it was a simplistic summary. There have been other media reports providing more detail on these other clubs negotiations.

My thoughts are based on the accounts and my knowledge of banking. The practice in relation to debt is pretty standard and it is fairly safe to conclude that the debt would not be forgiven.

The massive leap would be to talk about it being forgiven and basing a plan on it. I know I'm basing my opinion on normal practice. What are they basing theirs on? And don't say the ones in the article because they aren't similar and if that's what they are basing it on them it's flawed.

[Andy74]

I actually thought that yesterday's session was their best to date. It sounded like they had taken on board some of the advice and feedback that had been given.

Not sure who was responsible for that, but maybe that's a lesson in itself :)

Other than making it up as they went along on the CIC thing, not giving an answer on the debt forgiveness and giving no back up for telling us the assets could be broken up or the stadium sold to our detriment. Then having a go at us for questioning them.

[Tyler Durden]

My thoughts are based on the accounts and my knowledge of banking. The practice in relation to debt is pretty standard and it is fairly safe to cocky de that the debt would not be forgiven.

The massive leap would be to talk about it being forgiven and basing a plan on it. I know I'm basing my opinion on normal practice. What are they basing theirs on? And don't say the ones in the article because they aren't similar and if that's what they are basing it on them it's flawed.

I disagree with your assessment so let's leave it at that.

No idea about BuyHibs plans but we'll see if they can clarify.

[grunt]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point


In what way do you feel some of your posts (like this) will help your cause ??


Comments like this about debate don't help your case.In Shelly's defence I thought this was just an amusing comment reflecting that this is a place where every post is subject to challenge. I don't think it was a serious criticism - I took it to be a joke, and I thought it was a funny post.

[Andy74]

In Shelly's defence I thought this was just an amusing comment reflecting that this is a place where every post is subject to challenge. I don't think it was a serious criticism - I took it to be a joke, and I thought it was a funny post.

Not really. It was an indication of what they think of the challenge they are getting on here.

[grunt]

Not really. It was an indication of what they think of the challenge they are getting on here.I guess that's another way of looking at it.

[bigwheel]

In Shelly's defence I thought this was just an amusing comment reflecting that this is a place where every post is subject to challenge. I don't think it was a serious criticism - I took it to be a joke, and I thought it was a funny post.


it came over as a grumpy response to being challenged...

[blackpoolhibs]

That's where I am Blackpool.

I'm not surprised Scoops, most of us are desperate for a new owner with a vision and drive to take the club forward.

This lot are not it.

[Pretty Boy]

Can we be clear on something here, Hibs.net as a site has no opinion on BuyHibs. Hibs.net is a platform for others to air their views. It is a website and therefore has no emotional response to anything.
The admin team will have their own opinion on BuyHibs, in the same way we have our own opinions on who's best at left-back, or whether a diamond formation is better than a 4-5-1. The admin team do not take a stance on an issue and collectively agree to back it. If we agree with each other it's because there is common ground. (The exception being the statement we released around the time we were relegated, ironically enough because we unanimously agreed that Rod Petrie should leave (because we all love the board, you understand :rolleyes: ) )

On a personal level, I am utterly sick of folk implying that there's some anti-BuyHibs agenda being driven by the admin team. It's immature, irrational pish, which frankly, folk should be old enough to know better about. What I see is a small number of posters on either side of the debate arguing their case. Folk are asking pertinent questions about the proposal before they agree to commit money to it. That's their perogative and, IMHO, a perfectly sensible approach to take.

People should be big enough and adult enough to accept that there is going to be a different opinion, and just because there is and someone voices it, it doesn't mean that they're anti-anything.

This idea that a website can somehow have an agenda is bizarre. Look at the threads, as an admin team we're not editing or deleting anything that sticks within the site rules, the exact same as we do with every other topic being discussed. If someone takes that as the admin team having an agenda, or even more moronically,think that hibs.net as a site has an agenda, then I'm sorry but you really shouldn't be on here without adult supervision or something.

The fact that we've got one of the directors of BuyHibs coming on an implying it just leaves me astonished. Coming on and slating the users of a forum that has a membership into the thousands, from which BuyHibs presumably want to get people pledging to them, seems an absolutely insane thing to do. I feel for Lee (presuming Lee was using the BuyHibs account yesterday), some good responses were totally undone by some random mud-slinging last night. Mental.

If folk could show each other a bit of respect and understand that you can have a polarised opinion on something without it being agenda driven, then this debate could progress and evolve in a sensible, constructive, and rational manner. We'd also be in a much better place if people could figure out that if a number of people share the same opinion, and all of them voice that opinion, and those people outnumber the people that share and voice the opposite opinion, then the debate is going to look one-sided. That's nothing to do with folk being sheep or having agendas, that's just folk thinking along the same lines. It's not rocket-science, FFS.

My last tuppence-worth on this topic, and I must stress this is not the opinion of the admin team, just my own - if you don't like hibs.net, or its users, then either bring something to the table tom improve it, or don't use the site. Nobody's forcing you to come on here.

Thanks for this Matty.

Not for the 1st time you have posted something along the lines of what I wanted to say far more eloquently than I can manage.

I read somewhere the other night that 'we' should be excluded from any future talks or initiatives about change. I don't know if the 'we' was in reference to the admins or the site as a whole but it was a comment almost unmatched in it's stupidity. If you excluded .net from anything in future then any info posted on forums would be seen by one man and his dog.

[marinello59]

In Shelly's defence I thought this was just an amusing comment reflecting that this is a place where every post is subject to challenge. I don't think it was a serious criticism - I took it to be a joke, and I thought it was a funny post.

I did wonder myself if it was a joke gone wrong. Only the poster really knows the answer to that one. My own attempts at comedy over the years haven't gone well. :greengrin
An ill thought out opener? As a Director of BuyHibs it wasn't the best and that's me being kind. Taking it as the words of an individual poster we've all had our moments on here. Hopefully she comes back and continues posting, adding a personal touch from each director to the BuyHibs account has a lot of merit. I may have major doubts personally but I'm all for them getting as fair a hearing as possible.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Tyler durden, if you say hibs play in green you may find yourself being challenged on your point

Keep going like this and your cause will be a Norwegian Blue before long. :greengrin

[Jack]

When I first read the BuyHibs debt write off plan I was under the impression, as guarantor of the clubs debt, they expected STF to pay it off or reduce it.

Or maybe I just assumed that as it would be more in line with what has happened at the other clubs mentioned.


I did think it was a bit tight at the time, STF paying off the debt and passing over a share of the club to a group, however well intentioned, with no investors and only the prospect of direct debits as a source of income.

[Eyrie]

Having read through this thread the best advice I can give BuyHibs is to take a couple of months off during which they need to think through the questions that they have been asked, develop a coherent strategy that stands up to rigorous examination and only then come back to the fans to seek backing.

Right now the holes in their proposals and overly defensive replies to perceived criticism are doing both them and the cause of fan ownership no favours.

[chippy]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

[Phil D. Rolls]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

If you build it they will come, they didn't build it.

Keep digging mate. It's people like you who are undermining BuyHibs. Every time I see a post like this, I become surer that the only people who would support this caper are people who do everything on blind faith.

The motivations of most seem to be to find the best future for Hibs.

[McD]

The owner and board have said their proposals will be announced shortly and we can compare then


Apologies to all if this has already been addressed, but I feel the need to comment.

in reference to your comment quoted, why do you then feel the need to speculate wildly about asset stripping, which is nothing more than scaremongering, when your comment implies you have no idea of what the board and owner's proposals are?

[grunt]

Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? I can't speak for the others but I was in London. Even if I was here I wouldn't have gone along - I've seen and heard enough.


Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?Thanks for the compliments - but I know you're not referring to me! I won't join them because I don't think we are in desperate need of a new owner and I don't think fan ownership will work for us.

[matty_f]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

I'm not speaking for anyone here, but I can reference a post made by Andy74 (who, I'm presuming,is one of the people you're referring to.) where he explained his reasons for not attending on Wednesday night, which were (to paraphrase a bit as I've not gone back to re-read the post) BuyHibs in their interactions thus far had not caught his interest enough for him to consider attending the meeting a useful spend of his time.
I don't recall if it was Andy or someone else that also said that they don't see the need to pay extra for something that gives little in the way of additional benefit to them.

Why do you think people would try to undermine the proposal? If you look at their questions and consider the reasons that those questions are being asked, then I suspect you'll see that they are entirely valid.

As to why people aren't jumping on board with offers to help, there is absolutely no reason why they should do that. If I don't think my windows needed cleaned, and someone was offering to clean them with a brick, I'd just tell them not to bother,thanks and maybe tell them they'd be better trying a cloth. I wouldn't feel obliged to start running their window cleaning business for them.

[Ozyhibby]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

It was made clear at the meeting that they would welcome aboard any expertise that was available among the Hibs support. It's a fan movement after all and it can really be anything we want it to be.
If you do like a particular part of the plan, go to the next meeting and suggest an alternative. Nothing is cast in stone.
If you work in PR, why not go along and suggest ways they can communicate better? Same goes for any accountants or lawyers out there? People in the Banking industry?
These guys have got the ball rolling, which way it goes is up to us.

[blackpoolhibs]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

Interrogation. :faf:

I'm someone who's practically stopped going to games, i have seen Hibs play in the flesh once this season. And thats a direct result in the way the club has been run from top to bottom over the last few years.

buyhibs should be the vehicle myself and others like me should be so thankful for, a new buyer that will lift the gloom and get the club back to the top league punching its weight and of course folk like me back to see that.

All i have witnessed from them is mistake after mistake, no transparency and no information just flannel and bull****. I want a new owner, this lot have shown me nothing to convince me they are anywhere near becoming it.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was made clear at the meeting that they would welcome aboard any expertise that was available among the Hibs support. It's a fan movement after all and it can really be anything we want it to be.
If you do like a particular part of the plan, go to the next meeting and suggest an alternative. Nothing is cast in stone.
If you work in PR, why not go along and suggest ways they can communicate better? Same goes for any accountants or lawyers out there? People in the Banking industry?
These guys have got the ball rolling, which way it goes is up to us.
.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not speaking for anyone here, but I can reference a post made by Andy74 (who, I'm presuming,is one of the people you're referring to.) where he explained his reasons for not attending on Wednesday night, which were (to paraphrase a bit as I've not gone back to re-read the post) BuyHibs in their interactions thus far had not caught his interest enough for him to consider attending the meeting a useful spend of his time.


That's quite surprising as he seems to have loads of time to devote to this subject. :-)

[McD]

It was made clear at the meeting that they would welcome aboard any expertise that was available among the Hibs support. It's a fan movement after all and it can really be anything we want it to be.
If you do like a particular part of the plan, go to the next meeting and suggest an alternative. Nothing is cast in stone.
If you work in PR, why not go along and suggest ways they can communicate better? Same goes for any accountants or lawyers out there? People in the Banking industry?
These guys have got the ball rolling, which way it goes is up to us.


Youve been admirably staunch in your backing for buyhibs. Shouldn't they have sought out this kind of expertise before going public and asking for figurative and literal buy-in?

That way, any additional support offered from individuals is a bonus, as opposed to what seems to be happening, where they have made a number of clear mistakes, and are now trying to spin things as if they are open to suggestions and adapting their plans. All IMHO.

Not it a dig at you Ozyhibby, debate is a sensible and productive way to seek out the best ways to move the club forward, I'm just not sure buyhibs are interested in anything other than pats on the head and well done's, they certainly haven't responded well to any questions that I've seen, indeed have avoided straight answers for the most part.

For any buyhibs people reading this, can you please answer the question about why it was universally deemed ridiculous that Rangers would shift assets to a newco type setup, and ditch existing debts, but it was deemed acceptable for hibs to do the same? There has been a fairly comprehensive discussion about the difference between shifting assets and current company conversion, but no response to the question I've just repeated above.

[matty_f]

That's quite surprising as he seems to have loads of time to devote to this subject. :-)

I think it's one thing to bang out a few posts from the comfort of your own home, and quite another to travel from wherever you live to get to a meeting if there's no real motivation to do it.

I know that Andy has given up time in the past for Hibs when there's been a reason to do so, so he can't be accused of just sitting sniping, IMHO.

Personally, other than blogging on the subject, I haven't really had much to say one way or the other on BuyHibs here,I have time to post about it but I don't have time to get through to Edinburgh to attend a meeting about it.

[Ozyhibby]

Youve been admirably staunch in your backing for buyhibs. Shouldn't they have sought out this kind of expertise before going public and asking for figurative and literal buy-in?

That way, any additional support offered from individuals is a bonus, as opposed to what seems to be happening, where they have made a number of clear mistakes, and are now trying to spin things as if they are open to suggestions and adapting their plans. All IMHO.

Not it a dig at you Ozyhibby, debate is a sensible and productive way to seek out the best ways to move the club forward, I'm just not sure buyhibs are interested in anything other than pats on the head and well done's, they certainly haven't responded well to any questions that I've seen, indeed have avoided straight answers for the most part.

For any buyhibs people reading this, can you please answer the question about why it was universally deemed ridiculous that Rangers would shift assets to a newco type setup, and ditch existing debts, but it was deemed acceptable for hibs to do the same? There has been a fairly comprehensive discussion about the difference between shifting assets and current company conversion, but no response to the question I've just repeated above.

I'd like an answer to that too. I don't see why we can't just convert the existing company to a CIC. I would think that would be the easiest option anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd like an answer to that too. I don't see why we can't just convert the existing company to a CIC. I would think that would be the easiest option anyway.
It would be relatively simple. However, the issue is that the new regime would then inherit the company, lock stock and debt. Unless STF paid off the debt prior to the transfer, I don't see BH wanting to do this.

To be fair to them, they did say yesterday that they were considering conversion to a CIC.

There is another possible scenario that I can put out there. That is that STF holds on to that part of East Mains that BH don't want, as part consideration for his paying off the loans.

[marinello59]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

BuyHibs have free rein here to get their message out to a very large grouping of Hibs fans. If they can't motivate people to go along to their meetings at a time when the majority of us want some sort of change then that's entirely their own failing. The only people actively undermining BuyHibs are themselves.

[grunt]

There is another possible scenario that I can put out there. That is that STF holds on to that part of East Mains that BH don't want, as part consideration for his paying off the loans.You mean the bit that we've all agreed is worthless?

[matty_f]

BuyHibs have free reign here to get their message out to a very large grouping of Hibs fans. If they can't motivate people to go along to their meetings at a time when the majority of us want some sort of change then that's entirely their own failing. The only people actively undermining BuyHibs are themselves.

I think that's a good point that I missed from my earlier post.

We have been as accomodating as we can to BuyHibs, like you say they have had free rein to post, promote, answer, and engage on here.

I'd say if you needed any evidence that there's no agenda at play here, then that's it.

[Ozyhibby]

It would be relatively simple. However, the issue is that the new regime would then inherit the company, lock stock and debt. Unless STF paid off the debt prior to the transfer, I don't see BH wanting to do this.

To be fair to them, they did say yesterday that they were considering conversion to a CIC.

There is another possible scenario that I can put out there. That is that STF holds on to that part of East Mains that BH don't want, as part consideration for his paying off the loans.

It's fair to say this would take a fair bit of negotiation.
I suppose if STF was to take the spare land as part payment of the loan and the rest stays with the club would be my preferred option. I'm not keen on getting a right off from the bank. If we do that, we'll never get a loan again. I personally think we should pay off every last cent.
Perhaps if STF was to take a small token consideration for the club while the DD's are used to pay down the debt?
That way STF does not take a hit on the debt, the fans take over the running of the club and pay down the debt, the team has a bigger budget without debt interest to worry about and there is still room to attract further investment into the club.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's fair to say this would take a fair bit of negotiation.
I suppose if STF was to take the spare land as part payment of the loan and the rest stays with the club would be my preferred option. I'm not keen on getting a right off from the bank. If we do that, we'll never get a loan again. I personally think we should pay off every last cent.
Perhaps if STF was to take a small token consideration for the club while the DD's are used to pay down the debt?
That way STF does not take a hit on the debt, the fans take over the running of the club and pay down the debt, the team has a bigger budget without debt interest to worry about and there is still room to attract further investment into the club.

I'm not sure the prospect of giving up my security in return for an unsecured loan would appeal to me. Given the amount of disrespect shown to Farmer on here, it's clear that loyalty is not something he can rely on in years to come.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure the prospect of giving up my security in return for an unsecured loan would appeal to me. Given the amount of disrespect shown to Farmer on here, it's clear that loyalty is not something he can rely on in years to come.

I'm not sure I understand you?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm not sure I understand you?

Maybe it's me who picked you up wrong. I thought you were saying that Farmer should hand control over to somebody else, and then get the money he is owed paid back in instalments through a DD scheme.

That seems like "selling" somebody your house, but rather than receiving a lump sum, they make the mortgage payments direct to you. In addition you already know that their income involves going round pubs begging on a Friday night. Furthermore these people have no loyalty to you, and have been calling you a crook and bad mouthing you for years.

You would be a bit silly to agree to that deal would you not?

As I say, I could well have picked you up wrong, and I apologise in advance if that's not a fair interpretation of the scheme.

[Peevemor]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

I was in France where I live. I'm willing to and capable of donating (at a modest level) to any scheme that will help Hibs. I take it I have the right to pose questions when I get the chance?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I was in France where I live. I'm willing to and capable of donating (at a modest level) to any scheme that will help Hibs. I take it I have the right to pose questions when I get the chance?

I suppose you do until Farage gets his way and cuts all ties with you cheese eating surrender monkeys!

[Jack]

It's fair to say this would take a fair bit of negotiation.
I suppose if STF was to take the spare land as part payment of the loan and the rest stays with the club would be my preferred option. I'm not keen on getting a right off from the bank. ***** If we do that, we'll never get a loan again ****. I personally think we should pay off every last cent.
Perhaps if STF was to take a small token consideration for the club while the DD's are used to pay down the debt?
That way STF does not take a hit on the debt, the fans take over the running of the club and pay down the debt, the team has a bigger budget without debt interest to worry about and there is still room to attract further investment into the club.

To be honest, and without any banking expertise other than seeing what's happened at other clubs, without someone like STF in the background my feeling is banks will be as tight as a gnats chuff as far as lending to football clubs, any club not just Hibs, for the foreseeable future.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe it's me who picked you up wrong. I thought you were saying that Farmer should hand control over to somebody else, and then get the money he is owed paid back in instalments through a DD scheme.

That seems like "selling" somebody your house, but rather than receiving a lump sum, they make the mortgage payments direct to you. In addition you already know that their income involves going round pubs begging on a Friday night. Furthermore these people have no loyalty to you, and have been calling you a crook and bad mouthing you for years.

You would be a bit silly to agree to that deal would you not?

As I say, I could well have picked you up wrong, and I apologise in advance if that's not a fair interpretation of the scheme.

Ah, yes, you have misunderstood me.
With my idea, STF would be out all together. Time to enjoy his retirement, always welcome to visit and with one of our stands named after him, that type of thing. It's time to cut the apron strings.
BuyHibs would need their own funding facility. That's where their investors would need to come in. Banks won't lend to football clubs anymore without someone backing up the debt. It may be that any new investor doesn't need to actually put in hard cash. He just needs to stand behind us fans while we pay back the debt.

P.s. I've never said a bad word about STF, I just think it's time we went our seperate ways.
It's not you , it's us, Sir Tom. :-)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Ah, yes, you have misunderstood me.
With my idea, STF would be out all together. Time to enjoy his retirement, always welcome to visit and with one of our stands named after him, that type of thing. It's time to cut the apron strings.
BuyHibs would need their own funding facility. That's where their investors would need to come in. Banks won't lend to football clubs anymore without someone backing up the debt. It may be that any new investor doesn't need to actually put in hard cash. He just needs to stand behind us fans while we pay back the debt.

P.s. I've never said a bad word about STF, I just think it's time we went our seperate ways.
It's not you , it's us, Sir Tom. :-)

I know you've not, some other people have been less respectful though.

I know I'm probably a bit late on all this. Where would BuyHibs get the money to pay off Farmer - would it be a bank?

[Ozyhibby]

I was in France where I live. I'm willing to and capable of donating (at a modest level) to any scheme that will help Hibs. I take it I have the right to pose questions when I get the chance?

Of course you do.
Maybe you could suggest things you would do differently as well? You clearly have a bit of knowledge and they are trying to make it clear they want to take ideas on board.
They want to make our club better, they just need some help from their fellow fans.

[Ozyhibby]

I know you've not, some other people have been less respectful though.

I know I'm probably a bit late on all this. Where would BuyHibs get the money to pay off Farmer - would it be a bank?

I don't know, it may be. The quality of their investors will be key here. Banks are not well disposed to football clubs anymore. Whoever the new investors are will need to stand behind the loans while they are cleared.

[Peevemor]

Of course you do.
Maybe you could suggest things you would do differently as well? You clearly have a bit of knowledge and they are trying to make it clear they want to take ideas on board.
They want to make our club better, they just need some help from their fellow fans.

I've already suggested that they keep a low profile until they have something more to tell us.

[ancient hibee]

I don't know, it may be. The quality of their investors will be key here. Banks are not well disposed to football clubs anymore. Whoever the new investors are will need to stand behind the loans while they are cleared.

I'm totally confused now.;So "the investors"are not going to invest but are going to provide security for loans.Which loans are these?Who is going to pay them back?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm totally confused now.;So "the investors"are not going to invest but are going to provide security for loans.Which loans are these?Who is going to pay them back?

Who said that?

[Chibs]

Who said that?

you

I don't know, it may be. The quality of their investors will be key here. Banks are not well disposed to football clubs anymore. Whoever the new investors are will need to stand behind the loans while they are cleared.

[147lothian]

Pledged!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Pledged!

What will your pledge be used for?

[Pretty Boy]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

Yep I think we should just roll out the red carpet to anyone looking to take control at Hibs. Shut up, do as we are told and ask no questions. That's worked out well for a couple of notable clubs in Scotland.

Anyone who wants to buy Hibs will need a thick skin and need to be able to cope with pretty testing questions. Anyone who was hoping for a sycophantic rush of congratulations and unquestioning support massively underestimated how, rightly, protective of the club many of us are.

[Chibs]

Polishing over the cracks?
It's papering.:greengrin

[marinello59]

It's papering.:greengrin

Damn, you noticed that before I deleted it.:greengrin

[oldbutdim]

Damn, you noticed that before I deleted it.:greengrin

I thought it was a clever pun on the pledging.............


Bugger.
:confused:

[jdships]

Yep I think we should just roll out the red carpet to anyone looking to take control at Hibs. Shut up, do as we are told and ask no questions. That's worked out well for a couple of notable clubs in Scotland.

Anyone who wants to buy Hibs will need a thick skin and need to be able to cope with pretty testing questions. Anyone who was hoping for a sycophantic rush of congratulations and unquestioning support massively underestimated how, rightly, protective of the club many of us are.

:thumbsup:
Great post !
Says it all for me.
Fed up with " Spin,Spin,Spin" : these people are simply mimicking politicians ala Blair/Campbell
We have moved on a long way since and after the " Referendum" people realise it is only " the truth" that's is important in the end.

:flag:

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought it was a clever pun on the pledging.............


Bugger.
:confused:
I thought the pledging pun was well polished

[matty_f]

I thought the pledging pun was well polished

Oh no, this thread's not going to descend into people dusting off old pubs is it?

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh no, this thread's not going to descend into people dusting off old pubs is it?
There could be 1001 of them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought the pledging pun was well polished


Oh no, this thread's not going to descend into people dusting off old pubs is it?

Old pubs?

[Bostonhibby]

A pun, mis quoted or otherwise, what an excellent way to mark the closing of the poll.

How about "you can't polish a turd"?:wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI#t=15

[matty_f]

Old pubs?

D'oh! I'm just glad they're called 'puns' and not 'punes' otherwise it could have been really embarrassing.

[Caversham Green]

The detailed interrogation of Buyhibs and anyone like Ozhibby who is relatively open minded to their framework proposals is interesting. Where were all you interrogators on Weds night? With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan. The rubbishing of Buyhibs on here still makes me wonder at the motivations of some. Undermining seems the order of the day. That at least is the impression I'm left with sadly. Why not use all that business acumen, high intellect, leadership skill, sophisticated communication skills by joining in with BuyHibs and supplement what you perceive they lack?

You say 'With the time energy and will detailed questions can be asked of any plan'. If that's true then surely those questions must be asked otherwise the plan is likely to fail - do you really think we shouldn't bother to ask important questions just because we hadn't thought of them at a presentation?

For myself, while I wouldn't claim to have all the attributes you (rather sarcastically) list, the reason I won't be offering my assistance to BuyHibs is that I don't have the time, energy or commitment to get involved - I applaud those who do. That doesn't mean that I don't care about Hibernian FC and I want what is best for them so I'm asking the sort of questions I would be asking if I was thinking of joining up with them.

Some, like Andy74, have already decided that the BuyHibs scheme is not right for them or for the club so they are putting up arguments to put people off the idea. That's because they care about the club too and don't want it going down what they see as a potentially disastrous route. I have to say that Andy is putting up a much better case than BuyHibs and I find myself edging more and more towards his camp. BuyHibs have a long way to go in my view.

[Eyrie]

With time, energy and will detailed answers can be available in advance to satisfy any questions.

The issue here isn't when questions are asked, but that they can't be satisfactorily answered when raised. That is what is putting most people off giving BuyHibs their support.

[Chibs]

Yep I think we should just roll out the red carpet to anyone looking to take control at Hibs. Shut up, do as we are told and ask no questions. That's worked out well for a couple of notable clubs in Scotland.

Anyone who wants to buy Hibs will need a thick skin and need to be able to cope with pretty testing questions. Anyone who was hoping for a sycophantic rush of congratulations and unquestioning support massively underestimated how, rightly, protective of the club many of us are.

I agree with this 100 per cent.

[familyman]

I've been critical of their decision to refuse a meeting with the Board, but it's the mutterings about asset stripping that really make me dubious about them.

Either be up front about these allegations or be quiet.

I have doubts about the DD model they propose, too, but was willing to be convinced on that. I am less and less sure now.

Not a definite 'no' from me, but it's not been a good start from them at all.
i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..

[Ozyhibby]

you

I don't know, it may be. The quality of their investors will be key here. Banks are not well disposed to football clubs anymore. Whoever the new investors are will need to stand behind the loans while they are cleared.

Ah, I see. I was just chatting about possibilities with another poster at the time.
I don't represent BuyHibs.

[Caversham Green]

i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..

The tone of this post is doing your cause absolutely no favours.

[Phil D. Rolls]

i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..

We'll democratically put it to him exactly what we want him to do?

This is all very well, but Farmer doesn't have to do anything, even if a baying mob is demanding that he does.

Thank goodness for that.

[bigwheel]

i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..

I'm not sure if you are involved in Buy Hibs , but you seem to setting a tone of mandating how the owners approach the discussions..he has set up a model which he deeply respects . The football club is run by the board , CEO is Dempster and the Chairman is his trusted advisor , Petrie ...engage with these roles, and you will create the opportunity for dialogue ...it's not up to Buy Hibs to set out how the owner approaches this ...he gets to decide ...

[grunt]

i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..This is excellent. You tell 'em!

[Bostonhibby]

The tone of this post is doing your cause absolutely no favours.
Incredibly naive and more likely that STF will have a problem even taking anyone with that approach seriously when he is considering who might have the acumen to safeguard the future of the club. Not much has been taken on board if there remains a belief that the current group can set preconditions.

[JimBHibees]

Interrogation. :faf:

I'm someone who's practically stopped going to games, i have seen Hibs play in the flesh once this season. And thats a direct result in the way the club has been run from top to bottom over the last few years.

buyhibs should be the vehicle myself and others like me should be so thankful for, a new buyer that will lift the gloom and get the club back to the top league punching its weight and of course folk like me back to see that.

All i have witnessed from them is mistake after mistake, no transparency and no information just flannel and bull****. I want a new owner, this lot have shown me nothing to convince me they are anywhere near becoming it.

Couldn't agree more. Half assed proposal which people have every right to question. Answers are then vague and now a hostile reaction with accusations of agendas. Sounds like amateur hour.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Its certainly not a good formula when attempting to ask people to part with their dough.

[McD]

i think we need to start somewhere and meeting two reps from Board and Ceo is a start if no more than that, but then we would require a clear sincere commitment from board not rhetoric and timescale ,Tom F would need to be there as well as PART of the discussion , then we can talk to him 1:1 after that..after all we all want a Successful Hibs and for now we need to talk to Board however frustrating that may be..


The tone of this post is doing your cause absolutely no favours.


We'll democratically put it to him exactly what we want him to do?

This is all very well, but Farmer doesn't have to do anything, even if a baying mob is demanding that he does.

Thank goodness for that.


I'm not sure if you are involved in Buy Hibs , but you seem to setting a tone of mandating how the owners approach the discussions..he has set up a model which he deeply respects . The football club is run by the board , CEO is Dempster and the Chairman is his trusted advisor , Petrie ...engage with these roles, and you will create the opportunity for dialogue ...it's not up to Buy Hibs to set out how the owner approaches this ...he gets to decide ...



for a group of people who, from the little they've shared, want STF to: hand over the club for a huge discount, wave any existing debts to himself and his companies, and do this on their timescales, buyhibs are incredibly arrogant in the way the way that they choose to lay down conditions about meetings, and taking a high handed approach to all this. And at the same time, being pretty disparaging about him, and giving out some scaremongering implications with apparently zero proof.

As has been stated above, STF will decide, how, when, where, and on what terms he chooses to meet with buyhibs, which is the prerogative of a) the current owner, and b) the person not overtly looking to sell. And if he doesn't like your terms, it's also his prerogative to say 'no thanks'.

[jdships]

We'll democratically put it to him exactly what we want him to do?

This is all very well, but Farmer doesn't have to do anything, even if a baying mob is demanding that he does.

Thank goodness for that.

:top marks

As it stands with the various factions what exactly are they offering other than perhaps/maybe or at best hope ?
I have neither heard nor read anything that remotely resembles a firm policy or long term strategy/proposal .
My connection with HFC goes back to my uncle playing for the club in the '20's
My worry is that some " johnny come lately's" take over instead of a Swan/Hart/STF :rolleyes:
No football club can be run without " business acumen" at the very top and I see no signs of that within the various groups we are hearing from
:flag:

[Gerard]

:top marks

As it stands with the various factions what exactly are they offering other than perhaps/maybe or at best hope ?
I have neither heard nor read anything that remotely resembles a firm policy or long term strategy/proposal .
My connection with HFC goes back to my uncle playing for the club in the '20's
My worry is that some " johnny come lately's" take over instead of a Swan/Hart/STF :rolleyes:
No football club can be run without " business acumen" at the very top and I see no signs of that within the various groups we are hearing from
:flag:

:thumbsup::top marks

[Leithenhibby]

:top marks

As it stands with the various factions what exactly are they offering other than perhaps/maybe or at best hope ?
I have neither heard nor read anything that remotely resembles a firm policy or long term strategy/proposal .
My connection with HFC goes back to my uncle playing for the club in the '20's
My worry is that some " johnny come lately's" take over instead of a Swan/Hart/STF :rolleyes:
No football club can be run without " business acumen" at the very top and I see no signs of that within the various groups we are hearing from
:flag:

You mean there's more than one? :no way:

[Mikey]

Anyone heard anything from Pat Stanton and Paul Kane? When the chips are down you would expect to hear from the guys who have the closest bond with the people that they're trying to talk round, but they're nowhere to be seen.

[MB62]

That isn't what you say on your website.

"to move the assets of Hibernian Football Club into a Community Interest Company".

Has this changed?

CWG, Would you, or anybody, like to post a link to this website. I have tried to google it and just keep getting referred back to this site.
A direct link would be good so I could get myself a bit more informed/updated on what the proposals are.

Thanks.

[Caversham Green]

CWG, Would you, or anybody, like to post a link to this website. I have tried to google it and just keep getting referred back to this site.
A direct link would be good so I could get myself a bit more informed/updated on what the proposals are.

Thanks.

http://www.buyhibs.org/

[MB62]

http://www.buyhibs.org/

Thanks for that, study time now :greengrin

[Leithenhibby]

Anyone heard anything from Pat Stanton and Paul Kane? When the chips are down you would expect to hear from the guys who have the closest bond with the people that they're trying to talk round, but they're nowhere to be seen.

It does seem rather strange that after the bashing, BuyHibs has had on here that all is quiet. You'd think that they would be doing everything in their power to convince, and reassure people that everything is going to plan.

Perhaps there is a splinter group!... :cb