Ireland troubles

[Alex Trager]

Hi guys. I imagine this has been done to death but I am only starting to come to knowledge of this.

What is everyone's take on it?
So far I have gathered that like everywhere else In the world, Britain went in around the 1600's said this is ours and Ireland were having none of it.
They got their independence in the early 20th century but NI remained british as that part housed majority of the original settlers' families? Is this right?

Ireland has since tried to reunite itself with all of its country and thus the **** kicked off.

It seems to me that whole interaction with football is stupid- obviously that is not a new feeling- however the huns adoption of william of Orange and that seems to be total reactionary to us giving birth to a catholic club, celtic?

And the. It's just became bigger and stronger in terms of the bile. And deludedness

[CropleyWasGod]

Hi guys. I imagine this has been done to death but I am only starting to come to knowledge of this.

What is everyone's take on it?
So far I have gathered that like everywhere else In the world, Britain went in around the 1600's said this is ours and Ireland were having none of it.
They got their independence in the early 20th century but NI remained british as that part housed majority of the original settlers' families? Is this right?

Ireland has since tried to reunite itself with all of its country and thus the **** kicked off.

It seems to me that whole interaction with football is stupid- obviously that is not a new feeling- however the huns adoption of william of Orange and that seems to be total reactionary to us giving birth to a catholic club, celtic?

And the. It's just became bigger and stronger in terms of the bile. And deludedness

There's at least 2 issues here.

Are you asking about people's take on the Troubles, or the football-related sectarianism?

Each is worth a thread on its own.

[Jack]

Try Wikipedia.

[Alex Trager]

There's at least 2 issues here.

Are you asking about people's take on the Troubles, or the football-related sectarianism?

Each is worth a thread on its own.

The first.

[marinello59]

The first.

Check out Amazon for some good books on the subject or as somebody else says, just Google it.

[Alex Trager]

Wiki confirms what I've said so far

[Pretty Boy]

The first British Protestant settlers in Ireland were placed there during the reign of James I and VI, the so called 'Plantation of Ulster'. He's widely regarded as fhe first monarch to truly push for a unitary British state. The Protestant Northern Irish see themselves even today, for the most part, as culturally British because of this heritage. James I and IV was a very firm believer in a united parliament and crown (at the time the Scottish and English crowns and Parliaments were individual states and kingdoms). He was ruthless with his treatment of Catholics and saw the movement of Protestant people to Ireland as a way to ensure the crowns remained in Protestant hands.

What followed was the English Civil War, abolition of the monarchy, deathbed conversions to Catholicism and ultimately the overthrowing of James II by his daughter and her husband William of Orange in the 'Glorious Revolution' and the end of the Jacobean/Stuart rule. The Battle of the Boyne was the last stand of James II and he was defeated. The Act of Settlement followed after William and Mary failed to produce a child, they were succeeded by Anne (born a Catholic, raised a Protestant) whilst there was 2 Jacobean Pretenders to the thrown, the latter being Charles Edward Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) who was ultimately defeated at Culloden and the Jacobite cause as a serious force was finished.

The situation is far more complicated than that brief summary but that's roughly how far back the history goes and how complex it is. That's before even getting into the politics of the 19th and 20th century.

It's a hugely interesting story though that so many dismiss because of the inevitable links it throws up in Scottish society.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its a tangled web the old Ireland debate mate, but in a nutshell England ( see Cromwell ) Scotland ( see Robert the Bruce ) and then Britain spent a few centuries kicking the country around without so much as a by your leave to the indigenous population. This was followed at the start of the 17th century by a deliberate policy of settling mostly lowland Scots into mainly the north of Ireland in a deliberate attempt to make it more protestant. A policy which by the way would be against international law these days ( see Israel and the west bank )

The 'troubles' in Northen Ireland in the 20th century are a direct result of Britain's policies towards Ireland and it has to be acknowledged, but rarely ever was in the press, that whether or not you agreed with the methods of the IRA ( which I did not ) it simply cannot be denied that Britain, far from being an innocent victim of the 'troubles' was historically directly responsible for them.

There's loads of easy to find info out there, you just need to look :aok:

[Alex Trager]

Its a tangled web the old Ireland debate mate, but in a nutshell England ( see Cromwell ) Scotland ( see Robert the Bruce ) and then Britain spent a few centuries kicking the country around without so much as a by your leave to the indigenous population. This was followed at the start of the 17th century by a deliberate policy of settling mostly lowland Scots into mainly the north of Ireland in a deliberate attempt to make it more protestant. A policy which by the way would be against international law these days ( see Israel and the west bank )

The 'troubles' in Northen Ireland in the 20th century are a direct result of Britain's policies towards Ireland and it has to be acknowledged, but rarely ever was in the press, that whether or not you agreed with the methods of the IRA ( which I did not ) it simply cannot be denied that Britain, far from being an innocent victim of the 'troubles' was historically directly responsible for them.

There's loads of easy to find info out there, you just need to look :aok:

That's what Impression I was under.

Never would I say I was pro IRA.
I would definitely say that I was more sympathetic to their cause after our recent political situation.
That's not to say I am pro their methods. Rather the cause.
Methods wrong. Cause right. Imo.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Britain has been 'involved' in ruling/governing Ireland for a millennium. The plantation of Scottish Protestants into Ulster in the 17th century was perhaps when things became real messy.

Ireland incorporated into Great Britain in 1801, creating the UK and Irish MPs created at Westminster. Of course it wasn't a democratic decision but decided from London.

Home Rule movement was the constitutional focal point of Irish nationalism throughout the 19th century and the cause was taken up by British progressives. The issue almost brought down several British governments. At the same time, those prepared to use force to end British rule completely emerged e.g. Fenian Brotherhood.

Early twentieth century, Home Rule Bill appeared to have a chance of success in Westminster - Ulster Covenant of 1912 signed by around a million Irish Protestants/unionists declaring they would never accept Home Rule - "Home rule is Rome rule" - led by Edward Carson.

Word War One began 1914

1916 Easter uprising. Attempt by a small group of Irish Republicans to declare an Irish Republic free of British involvement. Failed, ringleaders executed and became martyrs to the Republican cause.

1918 All Ireland election returned a Sinn Fein landslide. Result rejected by British government. 1918-21 Anglo-Irish war between IRA and British government forces ended in stalemate and talks.

Result was partition 1921. 26 counties of Ireland gained dominion status (Free State) and withdrew from British parliament. 6 of the nine Ulster counties remained within the UK and Northern Ireland created. Devolved government from Stormont.

Irish civil 1922-23 fought between the pro and anti-treaty factions in the Free State was won by pro treaty forces of incipient Irish government.

1937 new constitution creates Eire, still a member of British Empire but weakens official ties.

World War Two 1939-45 Eire officially remains neutral.

1949 - Creation of Republic of Ireland. 26 counties withdraws from British Empire and becomes sovereign state. Irish President replaces British monarch as head of state.

1950s - IRA border campaign continues us of force to end partition. Sporadic, never going to work.

Mid 1960s - growth civil rights movement to demand an end to discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland, particularly in relation to jobs and housing. Since partition the Northern parliament at Stormont had declared itself "a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people". Hardline unionists regarded the Civil Rights Association as a cover for Irish nationalism or even the IRA in some cases.

Late 1960s tensions became violent. 1969 split in the IRA created the Provisionals (dominated from the north) and the Officials in Dublin. Official IRA remained committed to Marxist ideology whilst Provos adopted what they termed a return to traditional Republicanism. Official IRA ended its armed campaign in 1972.

1969-1997 'The Troubles' - A massive subject which I don't have time to cover. I would mention introduction of direct rule 1972, Sunningdale Agreement 1974 and fall of power sharing , hunger strikes 1981, Anglo Irish Agreement 1985, Downing Street Declaration 1993.

1994 - IRA ceasefire which breaks down.

1997 - Good Friday Agreement accepted by referendum in NI. Power sharing, principle of internal consent, disarmament of paramilitaries.




The briefest of outlines which may help you break down massive subject and provide ideas of where to begin your reading.

[Pretty Boy]

'The Long War - The IRA and Sinn Fein' by Brendan O'Brien is a decent overview and starting point for anyone interested in the paramilitary and political aspect of the troubles from the Nationalist side.

'God, Guns and Ulster' by Ian S Wood is a decent Loyalist equivalent.

[ronaldo7]

Wonderful saying...By Hook or by Crook, see link to Cromwell doing his "Duty" in Ireland. We visited Hook lighthouse this year, and visited Loftus hall.

Nice wee jaunt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/By_hook_or_by_crook

[Newry Hibs]

Autobiographies of Michael Collins also give a guide to pre 1916 events as well - The Irish Republican Brotherhood, a pre cursor to the (Official) IRA and the like. Up to the Irish Civil War when Collins was killed.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Ireland troubled my wallet at the weekend. On average €6 for a pint.

[easty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30193425

Taking the thread away on a tangent a bit.

It's not exactly an apology - if anyone is offended then aye I apologise, but I've got pals who did this and that so I don't believe in what I was singing, anyway it's just one of those songs that gets sung when you're with certain groups of people and you join in not expecting any sly *******s to be filming it on their phone.

[Future17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30193425

Taking the thread away on a tangent a bit.

It's not exactly an apology - if anyone is offended then aye I apologise, but I've got pals who did this and that so I don't believe in what I was singing, anyway it's just one of those songs that gets sung when you're with certain groups of people and you join in not expecting any sly *******s to be filming it on their phone.

I read that story at lunchtime and found the most surprising bit to be the detail provided by the BBC. Normally we get a vague line of "...apologised for singing a controversial song...". This time we're getting biographical details and a few lines of the Wolfe Tones creation. :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30193425

Taking the thread away on a tangent a bit.

It's not exactly an apology - if anyone is offended then aye I apologise, but I've got pals who did this and that so I don't believe in what I was singing, anyway it's just one of those songs that gets sung when you're with certain groups of people and you join in not expecting any sly *******s to be filming it on their phone.

He's sorry he got caught, not sorry that he sung it.

He should just be honest about it.

[Greentinted]

I read this 20 years ago when I was trying to make sense of the situation in Ireland.
Tim Pat Coogan has written loads - all of which are worth a look.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Troubles-Irelands-Ordeal-1969-96-Search/dp/009946571X/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417045198&sr=1-11&keywords=tim+pat+coogan

[Jonny1875]

Hi guys. I imagine this has been done to death but I am only starting to come to knowledge of this.

What is everyone's take on it?
So far I have gathered that like everywhere else In the world, Britain went in around the 1600's said this is ours and Ireland were having none of it.
They got their independence in the early 20th century but NI remained british as that part housed majority of the original settlers' families? Is this right?

Ireland has since tried to reunite itself with all of its country and thus the **** kicked off.

It seems to me that whole interaction with football is stupid- obviously that is not a new feeling- however the huns adoption of william of Orange and that seems to be total reactionary to us giving birth to a catholic club, celtic?

And the. It's just became bigger and stronger in terms of the bile. And deludedness

Should come and visit pal, always best to hear local knowledge.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Should come and visit pal, always best to hear local knowledge.

If this was a thriller based on the troubles that would be a threat ......... don't go Alex, don't go :confused:

[Stranraer]

Britain tried plantation in Connacht but it did not work, further south Cork was known as Rebel county where the Black n Tans were ran out of the city. The sole reason for British involvement in Ireland was to further their own empirical interests. I was only born in the late 80's but I can remember the tension growing up around danger on both sides.

IRA volunteers, UVF volunteers and perhaps worse the RUC / B-Specials who ALL took the side of the Loyalist community. I can now walk down the street relatively safely but the DUP are treating the peace process and GFA with contempt. At least McGuinness has reached out to the Unionist community by meeting The Queen.

[wpj]

Driving from Dublin to Donegal last year was an eye opener passing old deserted checkpoints along the border, horrible big concrete buildings half way across a residential street, must have been hellish when used. Still got the flags and bunting up depending on what side the neighbourhood supports. Took the bus on the same journey the year before, apparently it was relatively new for the bus to go into the north as it used to go around the border before entering Donegal

[Stranraer]

The Stormont executive need to take down the British Army watchtowers which are now defunct, they are a symbol of the troubles of the past.

[marinello59]

Britain tried plantation in Connacht but it did not work, further south Cork was known as Rebel county where the Black n Tans were ran out of the city. The sole reason for British involvement in Ireland was to further their own empirical interests. I was only born in the late 80's but I can remember the tension growing up around danger on both sides.

IRA volunteers, UVF volunteers and perhaps worse the RUC / B-Specials who ALL took the side of the Loyalist community. I can now walk down the street relatively safely but the DUP are treating the peace process and GFA with contempt. At least McGuinness has reached out to the Unionist community by meeting The Queen.

I didn't realise you were born and bred in NI.