LionelMessi - Spanish League's all-time top scorer

[emerald green]

Just seen on BBC that Messi became the Spanish League's all-time top scorer with a hat trick against Sevilla in a 5-1 win.

Messi broke Telmo Zarra's (Athletic Bilbao) record of 251 goals which has stood since the 1950s. The report says Messi's goal tally (253) is even more remarkable given his goals have come in only 250 starts for Barcelona.

Earlier this month Messi drew level with Raul's all-time Champions League record of 71 goals after scoring twice in a 2-0 win over Ajax.

IMHO Messi has now joined the ranks of the all-time greats of world football.

[#FromTheCapital]

He's just the Argentine Malonga :greengrin

[The Green Goblin]

Just seen on BBC that Messi became the Spanish League's all-time top scorer with a hat trick against Sevilla in a 5-1 win.

Messi broke Telmo Zarra's (Athletic Bilbao) record of 251 goals which has stood since the 1950s. The report says Messi's goal tally (253) is even more remarkable given his goals have come in only 250 starts for Barcelona.

Earlier this month Messi drew level with Raul's all-time Champions League record of 71 goals after scoring twice in a 2-0 win over Ajax.

IMHO Messi has now joined the ranks of the all-time greats of world football.

I think Zarra did it in 12 (?) games less? Nevertheless, Messi's goalscoring (and assist) stats are incredible.

I agree Messi is amazing, but do you think that Messi can join the likes of Pele and Maradona if he doesn't have a World Cup winners medal?

[emerald green]

He's just the Argentine Malonga :greengrin

Just exactly what I was thinking as I was typing up my post. :agree:

[emerald green]

I think Zarra did it in 12 (?) games less? Nevertheless, Messi's goalscoring (and assist) stats are incredible.

I agree Messi is amazing, but do you think that Messi can join the likes of Pele and Maradona if he doesn't have a World Cup winners medal?

I do GG. Lots of the greats didn't get a World Cup winners medal, like lets say Nobby Stiles! :greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

There surely cannot be any argument about whether Messi as actually a great or not? Everything he has achieved in the game for his age has been unbelievable.

[Iggy Pope]

I do GG. Lots of the greats didn't get a World Cup winners medal, like lets say Nobby Stiles! :greengrin

Should that not read unlike Nobby Stiles?

[Iggy Pope]

There surely cannot be any argument about whether Messi as actually a great or not? Everything he has achieved in the game for his age has been unbelievable.

Absolutely. And he's brilliant beyond debate.

[emerald green]

Should that not read unlike Nobby Stiles?

I see what you're saying Iggy. It's just the way I've worded it in my post, i.e. badly.

What I'm trying to say is the likes of wee Nobby got a World Cup winners medal, but nobody (surely) can classify him as an all-time great. Can they?

[Iggy Pope]

I see what you're saying Iggy. It's just the way I've worded it in my post, i.e. badly.

What I'm trying to say is the likes of wee Nobby got a World Cup winners medal, but nobody (surely) can classify him as an all-time great. Can they?

Some might but I know what you were getting at.

Did Nobby Stiles get a European Cup medal too?

[lyonhibs]

Some might but I know what you were getting at.

Did Nobby Stiles get a European Cup medal too?

One of only 2 or 3 English players to do that double. An exceedingly successful career whatever way you look at it.

[DH1875]

Ronaldo is better :na na:

[Iggy Pope]

One of only 2 or 3 English players to do that double. An exceedingly successful career whatever way you look at it.

And a great, Especially if you're Manure or English. Cant be argued with. I heard him speak at a Historical Trust dinner a few years back (with Tommy Smith, another great) and he was basically, great! Cant have a team of Lionel Meesis....he's too wee!

[Haymaker]

Ronaldo is better :na na:

In 5 and a half seasons he had scored 197 league goals in 176 league games. Incredible as well.

[Onceinawhile]

I think Zarra did it in 12 (?) games less? Nevertheless, Messi's goalscoring (and assist) stats are incredible.

I agree Messi is amazing, but do you think that Messi can join the likes of Pele and Maradona if he doesn't have a World Cup winners medal?

Johann Cryuff and George Best both get spoken about as being in that league, as do Puskas and Di Stefano and none of them won the world cup.

On the flip side players like kleberson have won the world cup, so it's not an indicator of ability really is it?

[The Green Goblin]

Johann Cryuff and George Best both get spoken about as being in that league, as do Puskas and Di Stefano and none of them won the world cup.

On the flip side players like kleberson have won the world cup, so it's not an indicator of ability really is it?

Indeed. And I agree. I wasn't suggesting Messi shouldn't be considered an "all time great". I was genuinely asking Emerald what he thought.

[Hibernia&Alba]

One of only 2 or 3 English players to do that double. An exceedingly successful career whatever way you look at it.

There can only be Nobby and Bobby Charlton who won both. Nobby was good at his job, though I'm never claim to have been a great player.


Messi undoubtedly is IMHO, Ronaldo too.

[Haymaker]

There can only be Nobby and Bobby Charlton who won both. Nobby was good at his job, though I'm never claim to have been a great player.


Messi undoubtedly is IMHO, Ronaldo too.

Ian Callaghan won the EC with Liverpool. Only won 4 caps but got world cup medal.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ian Callaghan won the EC with Liverpool. Only won 4 caps but got world cup medal.

Great knowledge, Haymaker. I didn't know Callaghan got a world cup medal. Do you know whether he played during the 1966 world cup?

[Scouse Hibee]

Ian Callaghan won the EC with Liverpool. Only won 4 caps but got world cup medal.

Only awarded it in 2009 after an appeal as originally only the 11 were awarded in 66

[Haymaker]

Only awarded it in 2009 after an appeal as originally only the 11 were awarded in 66

True, he only played the 1st game IIRC. Only used to give out medals if you played in the final.

[Future17]

Just seen on BBC that Messi became the Spanish League's all-time top scorer with a hat trick against Sevilla in a 5-1 win.

Messi broke Telmo Zarra's (Athletic Bilbao) record of 251 goals which has stood since the 1950s. The report says Messi's goal tally (253) is even more remarkable given his goals have come in only 250 starts for Barcelona.

Earlier this month Messi drew level with Raul's all-time Champions League record of 71 goals after scoring twice in a 2-0 win over Ajax.

IMHO Messi has now joined the ranks of the all-time greats of world football.

Has now? It must be a pretty small club in your mind if he's only just achieved this?


I think Zarra did it in 12 (?) games less? Nevertheless, Messi's goalscoring (and assist) stats are incredible.

I agree Messi is amazing, but do you think that Messi can join the likes of Pele and Maradona if he doesn't have a World Cup winners medal?

It winds me up when this gets trotted out (as it was repeatedly in the summer). It strikes me as a line to be used by people who want to do Messi down and can't think of anything else to use.

As others have said, some truly average players have won the World Cup but, for me, the more relevant point is that such a criteria is likely to immediately disqualify about 99% of the World's population from becoming a "football great".

If we're going to ask ridiculous questions (in that mould) which might provoke further debate, the question I'd ask is whether Argentina would have won the World Cup if you swapped Messi and Maradonas respective timelines. There's a myriad of ancillary considerations in that one, but I'd wager they would have won back-to-back tournaments in '86 and '90, as well as having a fair crack at '94.

[jacomo]

I think Zarra did it in 12 (?) games less? Nevertheless, Messi's goalscoring (and assist) stats are incredible.

I agree Messi is amazing, but do you think that Messi can join the likes of Pele and Maradona if he doesn't have a World Cup winners medal?

He belongs in that group. Arguably the best ever player. But he fell on the biggest stage in the summer.

Still gotta recognise his genius though - if he happened to have a Spanish passport he'd have won everything.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ronaldo is better :na na:

:greengrin

They are both great players, great goalscorers.

Ronaldo can't compete with Messi when it comes to the big stuff though. Whether El Classico or Champions' League finals, Messi has proven his worth to a far greater degree than Ronaldo.

Internationally both have had to deal with maybe being too good for their teams. Again though, Ronaldo seems to deal less well with the pressure from big games.

It's also fair to apply the Ashley Cole test - Ronaldo has always struggled against him, whichever strip they were wearing, meaning we've seen him start on the right and then be switched to the left, for club and country, because he's just not getting anywhere against Cole.

The point of that is that Cole has been up there as maybe the best LB in the world, during Ronaldo's career, certainly for the last ten years or so. Cole didn't own Messi in the same way though, admittedly playing him less frequently.

For me, Messi has shown far more at a greater and higher level than Ronaldo.

[Sir David Gray]

He's just the Argentine Malonga :greengrin

:agree: Messi had been waiting a whole month to break that record.

Malonga had scored five goals since Messi's last league goal prior to Saturday night. :greengrin

[The Green Goblin]

He belongs in that group. Arguably the best ever player. But he fell on the biggest stage in the summer.

Still gotta recognise his genius though - if he happened to have a Spanish passport he'd have won everything.

Agree 100%. As I said previously, I was merely asking for Emerald's personal opinion on it. Fwiw, I think Messi has been in the category of all time greats for a while now. I have seen him play at Camp Nou several times and he remains my favourite currently playing footballer, as he has been for a few years now.

[The Green Goblin]

Has now? It must be a pretty small club in your mind if he's only just achieved this?



It winds me up when this gets trotted out (as it was repeatedly in the summer). It strikes me as a line to be used by people who want to do Messi down and can't think of anything else to use.

As others have said, some truly average players have won the World Cup but, for me, the more relevant point is that such a criteria is likely to immediately disqualify about 99% of the World's population from becoming a "football great".

If we're going to ask ridiculous questions (in that mould) which might provoke further debate, the question I'd ask is whether Argentina would have won the World Cup if you swapped Messi and Maradonas respective timelines. There's a myriad of ancillary considerations in that one, but I'd wager they would have won back-to-back tournaments in '86 and '90, as well as having a fair crack at '94.

You've totally missed the point of my post, so no need to get so wound up. See my post above.

[marinello59]

Johann Cryuff and George Best both get spoken about as being in that league, as do Puskas and Di Stefano and none of them won the world cup.

On the flip side players like kleberson have won the world cup, so it's not an indicator of ability really is it?

George Best didn't even play in the World Cup Finals yet Pele still named him as the greatest player ever.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

George Best didn't even play in the World Cup Finals yet Pele still named him as the greatest player ever.

Pele's called out incorrectly "the next Pele" a few times - De La Cruz being one ;)
What did he say about Garrincha? (I dunno btw but my father in law like many of his generation rate him better than Pele)

[WeeRussell]

The best there's ever been and the best there ever will be.



... in my opinion of course :greengrin


Enjoy him while you can.

[Stevie Reid]

Pele scored 91 hat tricks. I know he played in a vastly different era, I just love that stat.

[emerald green]

Pele scored 91 hat tricks. I know he played in a vastly different era, I just love that stat.

:agree: I would also imagine that most of these would have been scored whilst playing against top class defences, as opposed to wee diddy teams. Phenomenal scoring record.

[Sir David Gray]

Pele scored 91 hat tricks. I know he played in a vastly different era, I just love that stat.

I prefer to say that he scored 90 more hat tricks than Malonga. :aok:

:greengrin

[southsider]

Don't get me wrong, Messi is wonderful and just might be the best ever and I am a big fan of his but I think his form has perhaps dipped since the time Pep coached Barca.

[Future17]

You've totally missed the point of my post, so no need to get so wound up. See my post above.

I'd seen your previous post before I replied and appreciate that you don't hold the view that not winning a World Cup affects how great players should be compared, but it does get raised and discussed frequently. With no actual explanation of why it should be a factor which is useful for comparison, it's annoying when it's trotted out.


I would also imagine that most of these would have been scored whilst playing against top class defences, as opposed to wee diddy teams.

What makes you think that?

[HibbyAndy]

Pele scored 91 hat tricks. I know he played in a vastly different era, I just love that stat.

WOW That's an incredible stat!

[Stevie Reid]

Pele scored 91 hat tricks. I know he played in a vastly different era, I just love that stat.

Upon further checking: -

"Amazingly, 129 games saw Pele score three or more; 91 saw three goals, whilst on 31 occasions he scored four, six times he knocked in five, and on one occasion he hit eight."

Must have been quite a few games that he didn't score at all then. Lazy *******.

[JimBHibees]

Upon further checking: -

"Amazingly, 129 games saw Pele score three or more; 91 saw three goals, whilst on 31 occasions he scored four, six times he knocked in five, and on one occasion he hit eight."

Must have been quite a few games that he didn't score at all then. Lazy *******.

Brilliant stuff and to me Pele would have still being brilliant in this era while Messi would IMO have been kicked out the game when Pele was playing. The physical abuse players handed out at that time was unbelievable.

[Speedy]

Johann Cryuff and George Best both get spoken about as being in that league, as do Puskas and Di Stefano and none of them won the world cup.

On the flip side players like kleberson have won the world cup, so it's not an indicator of ability really is it?

I don't think they do. Not regularly anyway.

[Keith_M]

'In total Pelé scored 1281 goals in 1363 games'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9 (http://ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9)


So Messi's got a wee bit to go to catch him up

:wink:

[Stevie Reid]

Brilliant stuff and to me Pele would have still being brilliant in this era while Messi would IMO have been kicked out the game when Pele was playing. The physical abuse players handed out at that time was unbelievable.

:agree:

I got given a World Cup goals video for Xmas when I was younger and it showed quite a bit of the abuse that Pele took when he was literally kicked out of the 1966 tournament - was certainly ridiculous.

[Stewboy]

I think somebody has made a good point, I am sure Messi could have played for Spain under citizenship rules? Had he chose this route he would have won a World Cup and a Euro Champ

[Haymaker]

I think somebody has made a good point, I am sure Messi could have played for Spain under citizenship rules? Had he chose this route he would have won a World Cup and a Euro Champ

Yes he could have but choose not to.

[emerald green]

What makes you think that?

I don't really think that. I know that. Here's some stats about Pele:

He played for Santos, one of Brazil's great clubs, from 1956-1974. Represented Brazil 1957-1971. Won 3 World Cup winners medals.

In his native Brazil he is hailed as a national hero for his accomplishments in football and for his vocal support of policies to improve the social conditions of the poor. During his career he became known as the Black Pearl, the King of Football, or simply The King.

Pele began playing for Santos at 15 and Brazil at 16. He is the all-time leading goalscorer for Brazil and the record goalscorer for Santos. Pele made his debut against Corinthians (no diddy team) in a 7-1 victory, Pele scoring the first of his 1291 goals during that match.

After the 1962 World Cup, Real Madrid, Juventus and Manchester United all tried to sign him, but the Brazilian government declared him an "official national treasure" to prevent him from being transferred out of the country.

Pele won his first Brazilian national title with Santos in 1958, finishing the league's top scorer with 58 goals - a record which still stands today. Remember this is the championship of Brazil - one of the most successful footballing nations on earth.

I could go on and on. His record speaks for itself. Look it up. It's frankly amazing. That's what "makes me think that".

Hope this answers your question.

[Sergio sledge]

I don't really think that. I know that. Here's some stats about Pele:

He played for Santos, one of Brazil's great clubs, from 1956-1974. Represented Brazil 1957-1971. Won 3 World Cup winners medals.

In his native Brazil he is hailed as a national hero for his accomplishments in football and for his vocal support of policies to improve the social conditions of the poor. During his career he became known as the Black Pearl, the King of Football, or simply The King.

Pele began playing for Santos at 15 and Brazil at 16. He is the all-time leading goalscorer for Brazil and the record goalscorer for Santos. Pele made his debut against Corinthians (no diddy team) in a 7-1 victory, Pele scoring the first of his 1291 goals during that match.

After the 1962 World Cup, Real Madrid, Juventus and Manchester United all tried to sign him, but the Brazilian government declared him an "official national treasure" to prevent him from being transferred out of the country.

Pele won his first Brazilian national title with Santos in 1958, finishing the league's top scorer with 58 goals - a record which still stands today. Remember this is the championship of Brazil - one of the most successful footballing nations on earth.

I could go on and on. His record speaks for itself. Look it up. It's frankly amazing. That's what "makes me think that".

Hope this answers your question.

There's certainly an argument to be made that a fair number of Pele's goals were scored against less than top class defences, particularly since he played a lot of games in the Brazilian state competitions.

On your post, the Corinthians you refer to isn't "the" Corinthians, but Corinthians FC Santo Andre who are not quite in the same bracket.

Also, the title that Santos won in 1958 was the state title and not the national title of Brazil as you state. Still some achievement to score that many goals though!

That's not to downplay Pele's achievements however, as someone else said he played in an era where the main defensive tactic was to kick people. That being said, messi plays in an era where defenders are fitter, stronger, faster and better organized than ever.

It is virtually impossible to compare players from different eras though. Messi has to be up there alongside Pele as one of the all time greats, but we'll have to see where he is when he finishes his career before we can even try to compare Messi with Pele.

[emerald green]

There's certainly an argument to be made that a fair number of Pele's goals were scored against less than top class defences, particularly since he played a lot of games in the Brazilian state competitions.

On your post, the Corinthians you refer to isn't "the" Corinthians, but Corinthians FC Santo Andre who are not quite in the same bracket.

Also, the title that Santos won in 1958 was the state title and not the national title of Brazil as you state. Still some achievement to score that many goals though!

That's not to downplay Pele's achievements however, as someone else said he played in an era where the main defensive tactic was to kick people. That being said, messi plays in an era where defenders are fitter, stronger, faster and better organized than ever.

It is virtually impossible to compare players from different eras though. Messi has to be up there alongside Pele as one of the all time greats, but we'll have to see where he is when he finishes his career before we can even try to compare Messi with Pele.

I stand corrected where you have pointed out my mistakes. :aok:

The point I was trying to make was that Pele's goals were not scored against "diddy teams" defences. Certainly not the majority of them anyway, but I note your point above about Brazilian state competitions. I honestly don't know what the standard would be there. Better than the lower leagues in this country?

I agree it's virtually impossible to compare players from different eras. I wasn't trying to do that. Things change.

I do believe though that both players can still, without question, be considered amongst football's all-time great players.

[Future17]

I agree it's virtually impossible to compare players from different eras. I wasn't trying to do that. Things change.

I do believe though that both players can still, without question, be considered amongst football's all-time great players.

Totally agree. :agree:

[emerald green]

Totally agree. :agree:

:aok: