Human nature

[hibsbollah]

Following on from some of the discussion in the Ched Evans thread, (and the contention that 'human nature'=selfish self-interest) are we actually 'nicer' than we give ourselves credit for?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2014/nov/22/behind-the-scenes-of-a-shocking-new-study-on-human-altruism?CMP=share_btn_fb

[Hibbyradge]

It's an interesting and optimistic study, but we're all far too complex to say whether we're nice or nasty.

You've heard of the Milgram experiments in 1961? Here's a video from that decade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5cjyokVUs

In case people think we've evolved positively since that post war era, the (connected) links further down the page are from 2009.

A very interesting watch.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzTuz0mNlwU

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFCoo-cU3Y

[BroxburnHibee]

It's an interesting and optimistic study, but we're all far too complex to say whether we're nice or nasty.

You've heard of the Milgram experiments in 1961? Here's a video from that decade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5cjyokVUs

In case people think we've evolved positively since that post war era, the (connected) links further down the page are from 2009.

A very interesting watch.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzTuz0mNlwU

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFCoo-cU3Y

Thats mental and fascinating as well D.

[Hibbyradge]

Thats mental and fascinating as well D.

The modern ones are even more fascinating.

More frightening, in truth.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's an interesting and optimistic study, but we're all far too complex to say whether we're nice or nasty.

You've heard of the Milgram experiments in 1961? Here's a video from that decade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5cjyokVUs

In case people think we've evolved positively since that post war era, the (connected) links further down the page are from 2009.

A very interesting watch.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzTuz0mNlwU

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFCoo-cU3Y

That's the one I was going to quote. Definitive proof, IMO, that my fellow humans are fundamentally ****s. Would I do the same? I have to be honest and say there are bits of my job that I justify on the grounds that its society's will - just like the Florida cops that arrested the preachers who were feeding the homeless.

The amazing thing about that experiment was that they thought the only people who'd press the lethal button would be psychopaths.

[hibsbollah]

No takers for the 'we're all fundamentally OK' thesis then?

[Hibernia&Alba]

No takers for the 'we're all fundamentally OK' thesis then?

I dunno. I'd like to think I'm not cynical and that the natural human disposition is benevolent and altruistic, but you look at society and it's dog eat dog: everybody driven by fear of failure and doing whatever it takes to get ahead. Nasty parties like the Tories and UKIP getting millions of votes by appealing to our more base inclinations, such as being hard on those on welfare and immigrants. I don't see compassion and sharing, just an ever further shift towards me, me, me. I honestly think that if I collapsed on the street, most people would step over me and not get involved. It's a depressing view, but the evidence points me there.

[--------]

Following on from some of the discussion in the Ched Evans thread, (and the contention that 'human nature'=selfish self-interest) are we actually 'nicer' than we give ourselves credit for?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2014/nov/22/behind-the-scenes-of-a-shocking-new-study-on-human-altruism?CMP=share_btn_fb


Nope. Human beings are capable of doing truly dreadful things.

Given the history of the 20th century - and the way we've started the 21st - I can't understand anyone who believes in the "essential decency" of human nature.

"I am myself indifferent honest, but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me."

[Phil D. Rolls]

No takers for the 'we're all fundamentally OK' thesis then?

I think people are fundamentally selfish, and will act in their own best interests first and foremost. It's not in most people's interests for others to suffer, and they also need to consider their reputation within the pack. This means that people do seemingly altruistic things, but actually have a selfish motive driving them.

[hibsbollah]

I think people are fundamentally selfish, This means that people do seemingly altruistic things, but actually have a selfish motive driving them.

I understand the point of view and the apparent strong evidence. How do you factor in unconditional love, or acts of random kindness without possibility of reward, into this equation? Spontaneous human acts that happen millions of times a day?

[Alex Trager]

It's an interesting and optimistic study, but we're all far too complex to say whether we're nice or nasty.

You've heard of the Milgram experiments in 1961? Here's a video from that decade.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5cjyokVUs

In case people think we've evolved positively since that post war era, the (connected) links further down the page are from 2009.

A very interesting watch.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzTuz0mNlwU

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFCoo-cU3Y

The milgrim experiments show more that we obey authority more than we are 'nice'

Stanley Milgrim was a Jew who, at the time, was obviously aware of the recent destruction caused in Europe.

He was interested in the effect authority has, in the cases of SS soldiers doing as they were told.
He wanted to see how far we would follow an authoritative voice.

Obviously he found that we will, mostly, follow instructions even ones that cause harm to a decent length.

That is what his experiments were all about.

Phillip Zimbardo found similar effects when he carries out the prison study

[Phil D. Rolls]

I understand the point of view and the apparent strong evidence. How do you factor in unconditional love, or acts of random kindness without possibility of reward, into this equation? Spontaneous human acts that happen millions of times a day?

People need to be needed? Ultimately, they could be doing what seems like a selfless act, but it is actually part of their own personal reward system.

That's not to say that what they do isn't admirable, only that I think people rarely do things when there is nothing in it for them, and if they do it is under duress.

[Alex Trager]

I understand the point of view and the apparent strong evidence. How do you factor in unconditional love, or acts of random kindness without possibility of reward, into this equation? Spontaneous human acts that happen millions of times a day?

I'd argue we are still very close to basic instinct in many things, however we have progressed well beyond that in others- which is a discussion for another day.

All you have to is apply the survival of the fittest theory to things like elections and you see it all over.

People want benefits spent on them, we can no longer savagely get there so we democratically do it.

That would be my take on it.

In terms of random acts of kindness, if it doesn't endanger us/our reputation, in fact in many cases it makes better our reputation, then we do the RAOK, that would be my explanation.

[hibsbollah]

People need to be needed? Ultimately, they could be doing what seems like a selfless act, but it is actually part of their own personal reward system.

That's not to say that what they do isn't admirable, only that I think people rarely do things when there is nothing in it for them, and if they do it is under duress.

So doing selfless acts triggers a 'personal reward system'? That sounds like it could be a description of altruism don't you think?

Another thing to ponder is most of us would think of ourselves as fundamentally 'good'. Same goes for our immediate family and friends (not always I admit!). But when we look at strangers or broader society we are a lot more pessimistic about human nature. It might be that we are being conditioned to have negative beliefs, or we have an irrational fear of 'the other' which isn't borne out by reality.

[Hibbyradge]

The milgrim experiments show more that we obey authority more than we are 'nice'

Stanley Milgrim was a Jew who, at the time, was obviously aware of the recent destruction caused in Europe.

He was interested in the effect authority has, in the cases of SS soldiers doing as they were told.
He wanted to see how far we would follow an authoritative voice.

Obviously he found that we will, mostly, follow instructions even ones that cause harm to a decent length.

That is what his experiments were all about.

Phillip Zimbardo found similar effects when he carries out the prison study

Indeed. That's why I referred to them!

[Alex Trager]

Indeed. That's why I referred to them!

I thought yo meant they were to prove humans were baddies

[Hibbyradge]

I thought yo meant they were to prove humans were baddies

Nah. I said that we're too complex to define in that way and we are.

We can all do horrible things and we can all be altruistic.

Well, most people, anyway.

[Alex Trager]

Nah. I said that we're too complex to define in that way and we are.

We can all do horrible things and we can all be altruistic.

Well, most people, anyway.

[emoji106]

[--------]

I understand the point of view and the apparent strong evidence. How do you factor in unconditional love, or acts of random kindness without possibility of reward, into this equation? Spontaneous human acts that happen millions of times a day?

We're a mixture. Capable of truly appalling acts of depravity, and also capable of kindness, generosity and self-sacrifice.

It's a fallen world.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry, if this is too dark, it's just something I was pondering the other night (as a result of this thread, I might add, not something I'm thinking of doing myself).

Is a mercy killing an altruistic act?

[hibsbollah]

Sorry, if this is too dark, it's just something I was pondering the other night (as a result of this thread, I might add, not something I'm thinking of doing myself).

Is a mercy killing an altruistic act?

I would say Yes. But its also a standard ethics question. Is killing one person to save ten lives ever justifiable? Is another. As ever, it depends upon the context and how the question is posed. There are no absolutes for most people

[Phil D. Rolls]

I would say Yes. But its also a standard ethics question. Is killing one person to save ten lives ever justifiable? Is another. As ever, it depends upon the context and how the question is posed. There are no absolutes for most people

The context I considering was somebody begging to die.Do you do it to make them happy, or is it because you can't bear to see them suffer. One action is altruistic, the other selfish. And that's why I think every thing we do for somebody else involves something in it for ourselves.

I can't think of any action that doesn't involve some gain to the person that does it. Does the guy that gives his life to save a child do it for the love of the child and humanity, or because he couldn't live with himself if he didn't try?

I actually think that somebody who does something without any consideration for their own needs is acing perversly. The only people I can think of who do things without any care for the consequences are psychopaths, and the deeply depressed.

[Hibbyradge]

Everything that anyone ever does, has a positive intention behind it.

[Jones28]

Fascinating stuff.

The thing about RAOK, I got out of my seat in a waiting room today to let an older lady sit down. It didn't make me feel particularly good, as I'm a touch hungover and at the time was facing a 4 hour, 2 change train journey. It just felt like the right thing to do. Like holding a door open or carrying bags for someone.

I think a RAOK might depend on something as simple as what side of the bed you got up on. Wake up in a good mood and you'll carry it with you, wake up in not so good a mood and you'll be obsessed with how **** you feel. You'll look inwardly to try and cheer yourself up and not think about other people. If that makes any sense...or even if it's relevant.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.randomactsofkindness.org/