Fan Buy Out Launched/BuyHibs/Q&A Answers

[Cropley10]

You've just described STF ...


You may have missed the point. This is what I'm saying STF, is one of a kind.

He/we aren't going to find another STF to take over from the current one, instead we need to face the reality of change.

[ronaldo7]

Leanne made clear in the consultations that this wasn't being invited by the club and Sir Toms stance was unchanged.

The consultations and discussions were a reaction to a number of protests and the approaches.

The feedback at the night I was at was that it was way down our priorities. The club survey returned the same result.

It is not inevitable that we need to do something. Until Sir Tom says otherwise we carry on. It would be helpful if he clarified what happens when he dies but it's not really common practice is it?

Ownership and day to day management are different things for me and I don't think the ownership aspect comes close to being something I as a fan should be worried about just now.


Perhaps there is some confusion as to what we interpret as inviting the process. My understanding is that one of Leanne Dempsters big things is that she has consulted fans with the prospect of fan ownership. That is what I see as inviting this move by BuyHibs.

As for priority, I agree, the first priority is almost always what is going on the pitch. However, the ownership model is still an important issue. There is no dramatic rush, we are not in the state of Hearts were in. Nonetheless, a community ownership model is worth considering, and given that Mr Petrie has lost the trust of the support, only adds motivation for a change at the way things are run. It doesn't stop or hinder Alan Stubbs in what he is trying to achieve - and Nowhere does anyone suggest that his job or anyone else's is on the line or under pressure.

As for the inevitability of this, I agree nothing is inevitable. However given that we have people like Paul Kane, Pat Stanton engaged in a fashion not seen since the Mercer takeovers, suggests that there is an energy and desire to move things forward. I would like to give these guys who are putting their time and effort into a positive change for our club a proper and fair hearing. I know I want the same things as they do - A winning Hibs team.

Finally, most of us will be hard pressed to throw much money at this - and this is true now, and will likely be true in five years. I suspect that this process will take considerable time to reach fruition. That for me is a reason to take very seriously this proposal, as if the model is right, the sooner we get it moving the better.


Nothing was more clear when LD concluded the meeting at East Mains not long after she took the hot seat, asking the fans how they wanted the club to proceed re the ownership model. Fan ownership was at the top of her agenda then and still is now imo.

The curve ball as one poster said on here took everyone by surprise that evening.

This process has been asked for by LD and she wants to get started. The buyhibs guys are the ones who are starting to push on her "open door".

According to reports in the media, we'll find out what the boards plan is for ownership in the near future. Leeann has already said, she has a plan, we'll have to wait and see what that offers.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Versus 8 years of dross...

There is a major point here is that some seem to be missing - change isn't optional, its inevitable. The STF model is stale and unsustainable (the man is in his seventies and rumoured to be in ill-health) but more pertinently, this model is tried, tested and proven to result in on-the-field abject failure. Change is coming, in whatever guise we choose but ultimately, its time some fans woke up to this. I'm not advocating the BuyHibs campaign yet as like others more information and time to digest said info is required but if its not this proposal that is successful then it will be another of some foundation and make up. We need to start embracing this certainly in ownership change to hopefully open up our minds and starting learning what options are the available to club and its fans, because it is the fans that will ultimately make the decision.

Ignoring this IMO and simply stating that you are happy with the current regime not only demonstrates a gross lack of ambition given the misery we have suffered over the last few years, but also neglect on the future of our club.

Get your head round that the fact that change is both required and necessary, and then the finer points of how this should be constructed can be discussed moving forward. Too many people are looking at this as black and white, with only 2 options on the table. This isn't the way I see it at all.

So what are the other options?

[Andy74]

Thousands also protested at the ownership of the club, took part in open and/or formal letters to the club and other fans surveys connected to the club. To this day fans are still pushing for change. Do these views not count or are deemed in some way less important?

Fans are taking the lead with trying to prompt discussion on change which whether you want to believe it or not will happen, and in not too distant future I reckon. This will be driven either by fan momentum or STF's exit strategy, given his age. You cannot blame people for wanting to take the bull by the horns and understand what the lay of the land is. STF may hold all the power but that doesnt mean people who want change should do nothing until STF decides to make a move, especially given his history for total lack of communication with Hibs supporters.

The protests were a one issue thing against Petrie. I don't know of any movement in the thousands against the owner. Too many caused getting mixed up here.

[Ozyhibby]

I can't believe how many Hibs are happy to stick with Petrie? I'm beginning to think we deserve to be where we are and have the derby record we do.
:-(

[Andy74]

Nothing was more clear when LD concluded the meeting at East Mains not long after she took the hot seat, asking the fans how they wanted the club to proceed re the ownership model. Fan ownership was at the top of her agenda then and still is now imo.

The curve ball as one poster said on here took everyone by surprise that evening.

This process has been asked for by LD and she wants to get started. The buyhibs guys are the ones who are starting to push on her "open door".

According to reports in the media, we'll find out what the boards plan is for ownership in the near future. Leeann has already said, she has a plan, we'll have to wait and see what that offers.

Asking what the fans want is correct but I think you are confusing the motivation. It was as response to a number of approaches so she wants to find out what people really want.
That is different from the club or owner actively wanting or needing to change the ownership.

[SneakersO'Toole]

The protests were a one issue thing against Petrie. I don't know of any movement in the thousands against the owner. Too many caused getting mixed up here.

See Ronaldo7's post above. It would seem there is more desire for change from both club and fans that you believe.

[Andy74]

I can't believe how many Hibs are happy to stick with Petrie? I'm beginning to think we deserve to be where we are and have the derby record we do.
:-(

You might be on the wrong thread?

[SneakersO'Toole]

So what are the other options?

These would become clearer once inevitable change in some capacity is accepted by the support.

One certainly is that STF isn't going to be around forever, possibly not even the short-medium term. Surely even the staunchest supporter of the status quo can accept that?

[grunt]

You may have missed the point. This is what I'm saying STF, is one of a kind.

He/we aren't going to find another STF to take over from the current one, instead we need to face the reality of change.

Yes I realised this after I posted, but I left the post as I think it points out that what a lot of people are looking for is what we've already got.

And to highlight what those who want to jump into bed with the first batch of unknowns who come along, are proposing to give up.

[davhibby]

I can't believe how many Hibs are happy to stick with Petrie? I'm beginning to think we deserve to be where we are and have the derby record we do.
:-(
Just because everybody isn't going to blindly follow any initiative that exists without knowing all the details doesn't mean we don't want change. We're not in any great rush so we have time to think about this and look into it before making a decision

However to blame Rod Petrie for our poor Derby record which was just as bad before he was involved with the club is a bit silly.

[inglisavhibs]

You are not being serious surely? Most clubs our size have owners with decent wealth, it just brings security and yes it does help if they are Hibs minded.

There is no other way forward than to find someone with deep pockets, prepared to gift Hibs money when needed, who at the same time won't look to take anything out of the Club, or get any return on the investment, or capital, provided to STF to become the new owner in the first place? Not suggesting that at all but anybody owning a football club like Hibs is unlikely to make a return on investment.

So - basically someone who's a die-hard Hibs fan who happens to win the Euro Millions jackpot. Not at all

If you are for real - then you can then very easily see that STF might not actually want to keep forking out from his personal wealth. He doesn't but as i said we are secure under his ownership and i only hope that when change comes we are equally secure.

You must also be able to see that 'poor seasons' have to become a thing of the past, and we can only spend what we earn... Not sure what you are getting at here but spending and income have to be relatively close over
a number of years. The financial shortfalls occur when the football side goes wrong.

How would you like to see us move forward once Tom Farmer sells? A genuine question as i don't believe there are any easy answers.

[SneakersO'Toole]

It isn't fabrication, it's in the accounts. And it'll be in the next set of accounts, big time!

And it isn't continuous, it's done when it's needed.

Further reiterates how unsustainable the current model is then doesn't it. It also proves that Petrie's ramblings about being the best run club in Scotland as absolute waffle, but that is for another thread.

[Andy74]

These would become clearer once inevitable change in some capacity is accepted by the support.

One certainly is that STF isn't going to be around forever, possibly not even the short-medium term. Surely even the staunchest supporter of the status quo can accept that?

Indeed but I have some confidence that his plans to safeguard the club beyond his life don't amount to us having to stick our hands in our pockets to pay for it.

[Squealing pig]

Petrie does a good job. Always backed the managers with money to spend etc. need the tash on board.

[ronaldo7]

Asking what the fans want is correct but I think you are confusing the motivation. It was as response to a number of approaches so she wants to find out what people really want.
That is different from the club or owner actively wanting or needing to change the ownership.

Don't believe I am mate.

LD's been brought in to make the change, and threw open the doors to test the mettle of the fans, but make no mistake, we've started on the road to a change of ownership. What form that takes will depend on many things. We're only at the start of that journey.

[SneakersO'Toole]

Indeed but I have some confidence that his plans to safeguard the club beyond his life don't amount to us having to stick our hands in our pockets to pay for it.

Here is a novel idea if not a bit crazy, why doesn't he share these plans of his?!?! Or better yet, why don't a group of fans ask him!

[grunt]

Further reiterates how unsustainable the current model is then doesn't it. It also proves that Petrie's ramblings about being the best run club in Scotland as absolute waffle, but that is for another thread.

So please describe what elements of the buyhibs model will improve on the current model? What have they said which makes you think we will avoid poor performances?

[Cropley10]

Not sure what you are getting at here but spending and income have to be relatively close over
a number of years. The financial shortfalls occur when the football side goes wrong.

How would you like to see us move forward once Tom Farmer sells? A genuine question as i don't believe there are any easy answers.



Allow me to take your answers to my points in to consideration too:

You say, "Most clubs our size have owners with decent wealth". Like who? Aberdeen and Milne, anyone else? Rich owners of small football Clubs are setting fire to their cash.


You also said that "anybody owning a football club like Hibs is unlikely to make a return on investment". It would be impossible to make a return and that's the quandry...


And we are secure secure under his ownership ONLY BECAUSE he continues to fork out when necessary AND it's inconceivable that we will find a replica who will do the same to keep us 'equally secure'. It's not going to happen...and that's the quandry...


But to answer your point the football side going wrong is a result of us not having a football-side. A merry-go-round of poor players, loan signings and hire and fire managers that got us no-where and cost us plenty.

I believe the only way forward is fan/community ownership where the assets of the Club; its badge, stadium, training centre and so on cannot be sold, and that we reap the benefit of solid infrastructure by spending what we earn. Only by doing this will we increase our revenues, as the majority of our income comes from people paying to watch. Improve the product on the park by not wasting money off it - like paying TB every month, as we do now.

[Cropley10]

Indeed but I have some confidence that his plans to safeguard the club beyond his life don't amount to us having to stick our hands in our pockets to pay for it.

That's just your hunch though isn't it Andy? You don't know this.

You're hoping - and are at the same time confident - that STF doesn't want any of his money back, from us fans, but instead will only take it off benevolent, benign businessmen willing to give their cash to him, in return for zero assets, or zero assets that could be sold to put us in jeopardy.

[Cropley10]

Asking what the fans want is correct but I think you are confusing the motivation. It was as response to a number of approaches so she wants to find out what people really want.
That is different from the club or owner actively wanting or needing to change the ownership.

But it's not what people want, it's what the OWNER wants, and you have no idea whatsoever that the OWNER doesn't actually want, or even need, a change of ownership.

Furthermore it's interesting (and no doubt pertinent) that LD has had experience with taking a Club into fan-ownership... don't you think?

[andrew70]

But it's not what people want, it's what the OWNER wants, and you have no idea whatsoever that the OWNER doesn't actually want, or even need, a change of ownership.

Furthermore it's interesting (and no doubt pertinent) that LD has had experience with taking a Club into fan-ownership... don't you think?

Pertinent it may be but look at the way that has worked out? Not LD's fault by any means but their attendances have fallen, their contributions have slowed down to a very low level and are seeking immediate inputs of cash to see them through. This despite them finishing in the top half of the Premier League and European qualifications.

Hibs are a far bigger club than Motherwell will ever be. The risks with these Fan Ownership models are far too big for a club our size to take. Without investors willing to put vast amounts of money in and expect to lose on that investment then I am afraid this is doomed to failure before it even starts.

Also if, as they say, they have investors waiting in the wings then we need to know who, what kind of investment and how this will be used for a start. I worry that some people are trying to play real life football manager and it will be catastrophic for Hibs.

Too many variables for me which can only lead to further uncertainty.

[Ozyhibby]

Pertinent it may be but look at the way that has worked out? Not LD's fault by any means but their attendances have fallen, their contributions have slowed down to a very low level and are seeking immediate inputs of cash to see them through. This despite them finishing in the top half of the Premier League and European qualifications.

Hibs are a far bigger club than Motherwell will ever be. The risks with these Fan Ownership models are far too big for a club our size to take. Without investors willing to put vast amounts of money in and expect to lose on that investment then I am afraid this is doomed to failure before it even starts.

Also if, as they say, they have investors waiting in the wings then we need to know who, what kind of investment and how this will be used for a start. I worry that some people are trying to play real life football manager and it will be catastrophic for Hibs.

Too many variables for me which can only lead to further uncertainty.

Against the certainty of being crap that we have just now?
I could do with a bit uncertainty to be honest.

[andrew70]

Against the certainty of being crap that we have just now?
I could do with a bit uncertainty to be honest.

We are crap just now, are we? Playing the best football we have in almost 7 years. We are a work in progress...before you jump on that I know we've been a work in progress for nigh on 10 years now. I do believe change has to be made in some ways and to an extent it already is but this isn't the answer. This will kill our club, make no mistake about that especially if there is no big investors willing to lose.

I really hope I am wrong but if this happens then I really do worry for our future. I think most people are doing this because of Mr Petrie rather than holistically looking at the club and realising that it will never be able to compete in the top 4 on in the SPL with the fans being responsible for it's income and expenditure.

[Beefster]

I lifted the following from the BuyHibs The Future page

If fans do not support BuyHibs in sufficient numbers we believe Hibs face a difficult and uncertain future with the future of both Easter Road and the Hibernian Training Centre of particular concern.

Re the bit in bold. Hibileaks also suggested ownership of ER and EM was at risk.

Can anyone offer up an explanation as to what facts these views are based on?

IMHO it's based on the fact that scare tactics might pull some extra pledges in.

"If you don't help us get rid of STF, we might lose the stadium"

[grunt]

Against the certainty of being crap that we have just now?
I could do with a bit uncertainty to be honest.

Please explain how changing the owner will stop the team "being crap". All we have from BuyHibs is some flowery language and an initial plan to remove LD - which they've hastily backtracked on when they realised that it was an own goal.

In some people's haste for change we run a huge risk of losing the club altogether by going with an unknown group who currently don't appear to have any funds of their own.

[Kaiser1962]

I can't believe how many Hibs are happy to stick with Petrie?(

As far as I can see you are the only person mentioning Petrie.

[Kaiser1962]

IMHO it's based on the fact that scare tactics might pull some extra pledges in.

"If you don't help us get rid of STF, we might lose the stadium"


I noticed the question was asked last night via Twitter but it seems, so far at least, there has been no response.

[inglisavhibs]

Allow me to take your answers to my points in to consideration too:

You say, "Most clubs our size have owners with decent wealth". Like who? Aberdeen and Milne, anyone else? Rich owners of small football Clubs are setting fire to their cash.


You also said that "anybody owning a football club like Hibs is unlikely to make a return on investment". It would be impossible to make a return and that's the quandry...


And we are secure secure under his ownership ONLY BECAUSE he continues to fork out when necessary AND it's inconceivable that we will find a replica who will do the same to keep us 'equally secure'. It's not going to happen...and that's the quandry...


But to answer your point the football side going wrong is a result of us not having a football-side. A merry-go-round of poor players, loan signings and hire and fire managers that got us no-where and cost us plenty.

I believe the only way forward is fan/community ownership where the assets of the Club; its badge, stadium, training centre and so on cannot be sold, and that we reap the benefit of solid infrastructure by spending what we earn. Only by doing this will we increase our revenues, as the majority of our income comes from people paying to watch. Improve the product on the park by not wasting money off it - like paying TB every month, as we do now.
We agree on most points, especially the football side! The Thomson's at Dundee United, Geoff Brown at St Johnstone, Moffat at Killie are other examples of clubs kept secure. I realize that there are not many Tom Farmer's in this world but i'm less convinced than yourself that fan ownership is the way forward. Fan involvement in some way could help though.

[Steve20]

I can't believe how many Hibs are happy to stick with Petrie?
:-(

Agreed. As long as Petrie is there, we'll go nowhere.

[Peevemor]

Agreed. As long as Petrie is there, we'll go nowhere.

Why exactly?

[Kato]

I'm unsure whether the fan ownership model will work at Hibs but think that an initial block of shares, with further blocks as time goes on could be bought by the fans and progress could be made that way.

Buying Rod Petrie's 10% would be an ideal starting place.

[Kaiser1962]

I'm unsure whether the fan ownership model will work at Hibs but think that an initial block of shares, with further blocks as time goes on could be bought by the fans and progress could be made that way.

Buying Rod Petrie's 10% would be an ideal starting place.

Rod Petrie does not own 10% of Hibernian Football Club.

[Kato]

Rod Petrie does not own 10% of Hibernian Football Club.


Maybe a good idea then, would be to try and buy the 10% of the Holding Company, or the 10% (or whatever %age) of whatever it is he owns re-HFC.

That better?

[Ozyhibby]

As far as I can see you are the only person mentioning Petrie.

I mention him because he is the chairman of the club. The most senior person at Easter road. Everyone else who works there works for him. He is the Boss.
He has brought us to where we are. Until he is gone there are many Hibs fans who will not return to Easer road.
If you don't think he's worth mentioning then fair enough.

[Kaiser1962]

Maybe a good idea then, would be to try and buy the 10% of the Holding Company, or the 10% (or whatever %age) of whatever it is he owns re-HFC.

That better?

Why bother? 90% of the shares are held elsewhere in a single group. The 10% are, to all intents and purposes, impotent.

[Ozyhibby]

We are crap just now, are we? Playing the best football we have in almost 7 years.

We are 14 points adrift in the Scottish Championship?
Your easy pleased.

[Kaiser1962]

I mention him because he is the chairman of the club. The most senior person at Easter road. Everyone else who works there works for him. He is the Boss.
He has brought us to where we are. Until he is gone there are many Hibs fans who will not return to Easer road.
If you don't think he's worth mentioning then fair enough.

And he is employed by STF, who will ultimately decide if this is a goer or not.

[Kato]

Why bother? 90% of the shares are held elsewhere in a single group. The 10% are, to all intents and purposes, impotent.

Why not? It's a start.

Explain to me why it would be a bad thing for the fans to own 10% of Hibs/Hibs Holding Company/whatever 10% of whatever part of Hibs RP owns?

If the ten per cent is impotent it's had a very potent affect on our fortunes the last few seasons.

[Ozyhibby]

Why exactly?

Maybe he is basing that on his record so far? Two relegations, horrible derby record, consistent bottom 6 finishes, 14 points adrift in the championship?

[Peevemor]

Maybe he is basing that on his record so far? Two relegations, horrible derby record, consistent bottom 6 finishes, 14 points adrift in the championship?

Whilst choosing to ignore the wholesale changes that have been made since the arrival of Leeann Dempster?

[Ozyhibby]

We are crap just now, are we? Playing the best football we have in almost 7 years. We are a work in progress...before you jump on that I know we've been a work in progress for nigh on 10 years now. I do believe change has to be made in some ways and to an extent it already is but this isn't the answer. This will kill our club, make no mistake about that especially if there is no big investors willing to lose.

I really hope I am wrong but if this happens then I really do worry for our future. I think most people are doing this because of Mr Petrie rather than holistically looking at the club and realising that it will never be able to compete in the top 4 on in the SPL with the fans being responsible for it's income and expenditure.

The club generates more than enough income itself to compete in the top 4. The fact that it hasn't is down to Rod Petrie.

Do you really think they are the right people to take the club forward?
How many board members resigned in the wake of relegation?
Do you really believe they are in it for he good of the club?

[Kaiser1962]

Why not? It's a start.

Explain to me why it would be a bad thing for the fans to own 10% of Hibs/Hibs Holding Company/whatever 10% of whatever part of Hibs RP owns?

If the ten per cent is impotent it's had a very potent affect on our fortunes the last few seasons.

Exactly how?

[Bostonhibby]

Maybe a good idea then, would be to try and buy the 10% of the Holding Company, or the 10% (or whatever %age) of whatever it is he owns re-HFC.

That better?

:agree:Its the holding company we want to own / influence, the more of that STF transfers or issues new shares to fans in, the more influence fans and maybe anyone else who buys in gains - they own Hibs - if we could get more than 10% we'd outvote RP! but unlikely it would shift him whilst he has STF support.

All of that is of course as the current structure stands.

[Andy74]

But it's not what people want, it's what the OWNER wants, and you have no idea whatsoever that the OWNER doesn't actually want, or even need, a change of ownership.

Furthermore it's interesting (and no doubt pertinent) that LD has had experience with taking a Club into fan-ownership... don't you think?

We're told nothing has changed and its up to anyone who wants to buy the club to make a case. That doesn't mean it's needed or wanted. I don't think we need to force that change just now so Im not supportive. Motherwell has been a disaster by the way.

[Kato]

Exactly how?

You're asking me how Rod Petrie, who is involved with Hibs via his 10% stake in the Holding Company, has, via that 10%, had an adverse influence on our football club over the last few seasons?

Have you been living on Pluto?

[Peevemor]

The club generates more than enough income itself to compete in the top 4. The fact that it hasn't is down to Rod Petrie.

And will getting rid of him now change that?


Do you really think they are the right people to take the club forward?

I think LD & GC have made a good start.


How many board members resigned in the wake of relegation?
Do you really believe they are in it for he good of the club?


Why else would they be "in it"?

[Bostonhibby]

Exactly how?

It gives Petrie a financial share in the entity that owns all of the club and gives him his option to take whatever position he likes on the board of Hibernian Football Club or matters affecting it. As chairman or board member he is the "conduit" - the only "conduit" back to said holding company board.

Oh, and depending upon how any cash raised is used after the hypothetical bids he could make 10% of any purchase price if the holding company had to be bought out.

[Ozyhibby]

Whilst choosing to ignore the wholesale changes that have been made since the arrival of Leeann Dempster?

I'm not ignoring them, in fact I'm very supportive of them and there is no reason they should not be allowed to progress.
But they have yet to bear fruit and you can't ignore the fact that we are struggling in the championship 14 points adrift. That's where Petrie has taken us.
A lot is being made of our upturn in fortunes and I agree that we are starting to play better. But draws against Hearts and Dundee Utd and a short unbeaten run in the championship should not be the limit of our ambition. It's certainly nothing to shout about.

[Andy74]

IMHO it's based on the fact that scare tactics might pull some extra pledges in.

"If you don't help us get rid of STF, we might lose the stadium"

I think it's based on Leanne asking for thoughts on its separation. It was in the context of safeguarding it and models of other clubs doing it were discussed. It was just one of many things covered though and she kept coming back to the fact it was not the club suggesting these things they were just helping to figure out what the fans wanted from their approaches.

[Ozyhibby]

And will getting rid of him now change that?



I think LD & GC have made a good start.



Why else would they be "in it"?

You think Petrie should stay?

[Kaiser1962]

:agree:Its the holding company we want to own / influence, the more of that STF transfers or issues new shares to fans in, the more influence fans and maybe anyone else who buys in gains - they own Hibs - if we could get more than 10% we'd outvote RP! but unlikely it would shift him whilst he has STF support.

All of that is of course as the current structure stands.

As i understand the proposal is obtain shares in the football club, not the Holding Company.

[Peevemor]

I'm not ignoring them, in fact I'm very supportive of them and there is no reason they should not be allowed to progress.
But they have yet to bear fruit and you can't ignore the fact that we are struggling in the championship 14 points adrift. That's where Petrie has taken us.
A lot is being made of our upturn in fortunes and I agree that we are starting to play better. But draws against Hearts and Dundee Utd and a short unbeaten run in the championship should not be the limit of our ambition. It's certainly nothing to shout about.

So can you tell me how removing RP from the board will change any of that? Can you tell me why you've posted "Petrie Out" stuff on this thread at every opportunity, when in fact the subject is STF's shareholding?

[Peevemor]

You think Petrie should stay?

No, but I'm not convinced that his going will significantly change the way that the club is currently run.

[Kaiser1962]

It gives Petrie a financial share in the entity that owns all of the club and gives him his option to take whatever position he likes on the board of Hibernian Football Club or matters affecting it. As chairman or board member he is the "conduit" - the only "conduit" back to said holding company board.

To be fair I dont think his shareholding has anything to do with that. He is there because STF wants him there. Whether he held 10% or not. Why use money to buy shares in the Holding Company when you could use it to buy shares in the Football Club?


Oh, and depending upon how any cash raised is used after the hypothetical bids he could make 10% of any purchase price if the holding company had to be bought out.

Do you seriously think that there will be any money left over once all the money paid out has been settled? I suspect there will be a substantial loss.

[Kato]

No, but I'm not convinced that his going will significantly change the way that the club is currently run.

Whether you like it or not, or whether RP is still extending an influence or not there is a stigma surrounding him that is still, and will continue to, hamper the progress of the club. His departure would see some freshness and that stigma and potential influence removed.

[Ozyhibby]

So can you tell me how removing RP from the board will change any of that? Can you tell me why you've posted "Petrie Out" stuff on this thread at every opportunity, when in fact the subject is STF's shareholding?

Because Rod Petrie runs the club for STF.
If this club was properly run, this thread and BuyHibs would not exist.
You can't tell me you think Rid Petrie's stewardship of the club is unconnected to efforts by some fans to take control?

[Ozyhibby]

No, but I'm not convinced that his going will significantly change the way that the club is currently run.

You think we can do no better?

[Peevemor]

Because Rod Petrie runs the club for STF.

No. Leeann Dempster as CEO runs the club. Rod Petrie is the liaison between her and STF (as is STF's will).


If this club was properly run, this thread and BuyHibs would not exist.

From what I can see, the club is properly run.


You can't tell me you think Rid Petrie's stewardship of the club is unconnected to efforts by some fans to take control?

I think that it's precisely why some fans want to take control. I'm currently not convinced that it's a good idea.

[Peevemor]

Whether you like it or not, or whether RP is still extending an influence or not there is a stigma surrounding him that is still, and will continue to, hamper the progress of the club. His departure would see some freshness and that stigma and potential influence removed.

Maybe some people should take off their blinkers and acknowledge the changes that have been made since LD's arrival. Are these RP initiatives? Is he leaving LD to do her job?

[Peevemor]

You think we can do no better?

How would you propose that we "do better"?

[Bostonhibby]

Response to post 552.

They were astutely made inseparable by stf to protect the club post mercer. Club shares pointless in this scenario whilst the holding company exists l know, l have some!

[Kato]

Maybe some people should take off their blinkers and acknowledge the changes that have been made since LD's arrival. Are these RP initiatives? Is he leaving LD to do her job?

It's not case of blinkers it's a case of track record which, in a football sense, is woeful, accountability and his continued presence which is percieved as harmful. Only a very few people trust him and support for him to stay in his position is frankly beyond my comprehension given his lack of leadership.

I support LD in whatever she does and I personally don't believe RP interferes in that. However the stigma surrounding his presence remains and no amount of calls to remove blinkers or pedantic disingenuousness is going to change that, ever.

[Kato]

How would you propose that we "do better"?

Get someone/some people in at the very top of the club who understand football, have leadership skills and quality communication skills and who have a plan to realise our potential. Recent seasons have shown we didn't have such a person.

[Ozyhibby]

How would you propose that we "do better"?

In our history I don't think we have ever been in a worse position than we were a few short weeks ago, sitting 20th I'm Scottish football.
Even where we are now, sitting 16th in Scottish football must be close to as bad as it gets.
You don't think we can do better?

[jacomo]

Petrie does a good job. Always backed the managers with money to spend etc. need the tash on board.

Except that the managers rarely seemed able to secure their 1st, 2nd or even 3rd targets.

And then he sacks them (normally week before AGM) if he feels the fans are getting a bit uppity.

[Peevemor]

It's not case of blinkers it's a case of track record which, in a football sense, is woeful, accountability and his continued presence which is percieved as harmful. Only a very few people trust him and support for him to stay in his position is frankly beyond my comprehension given his lack of leadership.

I support LD in whatever she does and I personally don't believe RP interferes in that. However the stigma surrounding his presence remains and no amount of calls to remove blinkers or pedantic disingenuousness is going to change that, ever.

Track record in a job that he's no longer doing?

If people take time to try to understand his current role at the club, to acccept the possibility that his continued presence may in fact be positive for LD, to get on with supporting Hibs as opposed to not supporting RP, then maybe we'll be better off.

:dunno:

[Peevemor]

Except that the managers rarely seemed able to secure their 1st, 2nd or even 3rd targets.

And then he sacks them (normally week before AGM) if he feels the fans are getting a bit uppity.

But all that stuff is no longer his job.

[Peevemor]

In our history I don't think we have ever been in a worse position than we were a few short weeks ago, sitting 20th I'm Scottish football.
Even where we are now, sitting 16th in Scottish football must be close to as bad as it gets.
You don't think we can do better?

OK. As of now you're going to be chairman instead of RP.

What are you going to do to improve us?

[Peevemor]

Get someone/some people in at the very top of the club who understand football, have leadership skills and quality communication skills and who have a plan to realise our potential. Recent seasons have shown we didn't have such a person.

Recent seasons?

What about this season?

[JimBHibees]

Whether you like it or not, or whether RP is still extending an influence or not there is a stigma surrounding him that is still, and will continue to, hamper the progress of the club. His departure would see some freshness and that stigma and potential influence removed.

Agree with that however I dont think everything would suddenly be all roses and skipping through the tulips when he goes. :greengrin

I think the decision on whether the latest proposal is a goer shouldnt be based on the whether RP would go or not it should be on whether it will benefit the club for the longer term.

[Kato]

Track record in a job that he's no longer doing?

If people take time to try to understand his current role at the club, to acccept the possibility that his continued presence may in fact be positive for LD, to get on with supporting Hibs as opposed to not supporting RP, then maybe we'll be better off.

:dunno:

Yet again you seem to fail to read what I am saying.

Whether he's doing his job in not interfering or he has his hand up LD's jaxxy and is playing her like a sock puppet isn't the problem, it's his presence and the stigma surrounding his presence that is harmful. Along with his complete lack of accuontability in the downward spiral at Hibs makes his connection to HFC untenable, brass neck is unbelievable.

People have taken time re-Hibs and now many aren't given them any time at all and more importantly they're not giving them their money any more.

Getting you to hand out lessons in what his current role entials isn't really going to wash.

[Kato]

Agree with that however I dont think everything would suddenly be all roses and skipping through the tulips when he goes. :greengrin

It never has been and nowhere did I claim that.


I think the decision on whether the latest proposal is a goer shouldnt be based on the whether RP would go or not it should be on whether it will benefit the club for the longer term.

A start has to be made somewhere. If the club is to go forward then support for whatever plan to do that would increase if he was gone. Small steps in re-galvinising the support are required and in the scheme of things that would be seen a large step.

[Peevemor]

Yet again you seem to fail to read what I am saying.

Whether he's doing his job in not interfering or he has his hand up LD's jaxxy and is playing her like a sock puppet isn't the problem, it's his presence and the stigma surrounding his presence that is harmful. Along with his complete lack of accuontability in the downward spiral at Hibs makes his connection to HFC untenable, brass neck is unbelievable.

People have taken time re-Hibs and now many aren't given them any time at all and more importantly they're not giving them their money any more.

Getting you to hand out lessons in what his current role entials isn't really going to wash.

I'm not handing out any lessons. People keep coming out with the "we'll never go anywhere as long as Petrie is still there" line.

I'd to know why?

And if you think the 'missing' thousands are staying away because RP is still chairman, you're kidding yourself on.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not handing out any lessons. People keep coming out with the "we'll never go anywhere as long as Petrie is still there" line.

I'd to know why?

And if you think the 'missing' thousands are staying away because RP is still chairman, you're kidding yourself on.

Why are they staying away?

[Peevemor]

Why are they staying away?

Prices? Championship?

[JimBHibees]

It never has been and nowhere did I claim that.



A start has to be made somewhere. If the club is to go forward then support for whatever plan to do that would increase if he was gone. Small steps in re-galvinising the support are required and in the scheme of things that would be seen a large step.

I never said you did say that the only point I was making that the proposal needs to be the right one for the club in the longer term and not just used as a hobby horse with the main intention to get rid of Petrie.

[Ozyhibby]

Prices? Championship?

Who Set the prices? Who was in charge when we went down to the championship?

[Peevemor]

Who Set the prices? Who was in charge when we went down to the championship?

The prices were confirmed by the board after LD's arrival.

RP was in charge when we were relegated. Getting rid of him now won't change that.

[Kato]

Prices? Championship?

Blinkers? Moi?

[Peevemor]

Blinkers? Moi?

So you think that there are 3-4k people who don't attend because RP is still on the board?

[Kato]

I'm not handing out any lessons. People keep coming out with the "we'll never go anywhere as long as Petrie is still there" line.

I'd to know why?

And if you think the 'missing' thousands are staying away because RP is still chairman, you're kidding yourself on.

No, It's you who are kidding yourself on. Asking questions when questions are put to you or ignoring answers then asking further questions shows you don't want to consider life without RP. Why? Who knows or cares but it's a pretty tiresome exercise when you ignore points and shuffle the same "what if's" and "why's" around rather discussing the points put to you.

Boring.

A lot of fans have said they won't be back until some accountability is shown by RP. Only a section of those will ever return at all but some will, once he's left.

If you choose to ignore the stigma attached to him, go ahead.

If you imagine his presence isn't harmful or mistrusted then that's up to you.

The reality is a different thing altogether. People living with that reality will move the club on, not those clinging to a past which includes someone who should have left the club years ago.

[Kato]

So you think that there are 3-4k people who don't attend because RP is still on the board?

Do I?

[Keith_M]

Peevemore:

You have some valid points to make but are not actually making a good case for yourself currently. I realise you are just putting your views out there but you're coming over as a Cheerleader for STF/Petrie.

For instance, I'm also not convinced that if Petrie resigned tomorrow, the gates would suddenly increase by a few thousand. However, you must admit his continued presence is at Hibs is a thorn in the side of many in the Hibs support. The last time Hibs were relegated, Lex Gold felt the only honourable thing to do was to resign. Many feel that Petrie should have done the same.

There is also the suspicion among many that he is a micro-manager who will meddle in the affairs of the Club (given past experience). We don't know for sure but there is a worry that he can't help himself. That suspicion is putting many people off from fully getting behind what Dempster is doing, leading to undue pressure on her and others.

[Kato]

The prices were confirmed by the board after LD's arrival.

RP was in charge when we were relegated. Getting rid of him now won't change that.

No. But it would illustrate that there is a price to pay at this club when you let it down so badly.

[Kato]

Peevemore:

You have some valid points

Does he?

Not on this thread.

[marinello59]

Does he?

Not on this thread.

That's a bit unfair. There's some decent stuff coming from all angles here and it's great to see the pros and cons of this getting debated in a healthy and robust manner. Hopefully it helps to make up the minds of undecided people either way.

[greenpaper55]

Peevemore:

You have some valid points to make but are not actually making a good case for yourself currently. I realise you are just putting your views out there but you're coming over as a Cheerleader for STF/Petrie.

For instance, I'm also not convinced that if Petrie resigned tomorrow, the gates would suddenly increase by a few thousand. However, you must admit his continued presence is at Hibs is a thorn in the side of many in the Hibs support. The last time Hibs were relegated, Lex Gold felt the only honourable thing to do was to resign. Many feel that Petrie should have done the same.

There is also the suspicion among many that he is a micro-manager who will meddle in the affairs of the Club (given past experience). We don't know for sure but there is a worry that he can't help himself. That suspicion is putting many people off from fully getting behind what Dempster is doing, leading to undue pressure on her and others.

:top marksRP is a failure as a chairman of our club, if he was in charge of one of TF's tyre outlets he would have had his P 45 a long time ago.

[Kato]

That's a bit unfair. There's some decent stuff coming from all angles here and it's great to see the pros and cons of this getting debated in a healthy and robust manner. Hopefully it helps to make up the minds of undecided people either way.

I can't see any pros to keeping RP on being expressed. "What harm is doing now" doesn't wash in any way when measured against the cons.

[Kaiser1962]

You're asking me how Rod Petrie, who is involved with Hibs via his 10% stake in the Holding Company, has, via that 10%, had an adverse influence on our football club over the last few seasons?

Have you been living on Pluto?

You've lost me a bit. I was talking about the 10% shareholding in HFC holdings that is held by Rod Petrie and you seem to be talking about Rod Petrie. They are not one and the same.

He is employed by Hibs because the man who controls 100% of the trust that owns 100% of the company which controls 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 90% of the Holding Company which owns 98.1% if Hibernian Football Club (have I missed any out?) wants him to do so. The 10% shareholding in HFC Holdings is utterly irrelevant with regard to the employment of Rod Petrie.

[Ozyhibby]

You've lost me a bit. I was talking about the 10% shareholding in HFC holdings that is held by Rod Petrie and you seem to be talking about Rod Petrie. They are not one and the same.

He is employed by Hibs because the man who controls 100% of the trust that owns 100% of the company which controls 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 90% of the Holding Company which owns 98.1% if Hibernian Football Club (have I missed any out?) wants him to do so. The 10% shareholding in HFC Holdings is utterly irrelevant with regard to the employment of Rod Petrie.

And that is why both must go.

[Kato]

You've lost me a bit. I was talking about the 10% shareholding in HFC holdings that is held by Rod Petrie and you seem to be talking about Rod Petrie. They are not one and the same.

He is employed by Hibs because the man who controls 100% of the trust that owns 100% of the company which controls 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 100% of the company which owns 90% of the Holding Company which owns 98.1% if Hibernian Football Club (have I missed any out?) wants him to do so. The 10% shareholding in HFC Holdings is utterly irrelevant with regard to the employment of Rod Petrie.

You said "The 10% are, to all intents and purposes, impotent", whereas someone who owns 10% has done a lot of damage to the club, which shows owning 10% can affect the club.

All the ins and outs and, again disingenuousness, surrounding RP's position in relation to his position with STF is just noise.

Remember I already said working our way to the fans owning part of the club in chunks might be a better way to approach this project and starting with RP's 10% would be the best way forward. Ignoring that part is where you got lost.

[Kaiser1962]

And that is why both must go.

Well you now have an avenue to do it. Pledge enough money and it appears to be a possible outcome.

[Kaiser1962]

You said "The 10% are, to all intents and purposes, impotent", whereas someone who owns 10% has done a lot of damage to the club, which shows owning 10% can affect the club.

All the ins and outs and, again disingenuousness, surrounding RP's position in relation to his position with STF is just noise.

Remember I already said working our way to the fans owning part of the club in chunks might be a better way to approach this project and starting with RP's 10% would be the best way forward. Ignoring that part is where you got lost.

The 10% that Rod holds is not "part of the club". Whatever Rod has done to the club, good or bad, has nothing to with his shareholding in HFC Holdings.

Explain where I am "disingenuous".

[Peevemor]

No, It's you who are kidding yourself on. Asking questions when questions are put to you or ignoring answers then asking further questions shows you don't want to consider life without RP. Why? Who knows or cares but it's a pretty tiresome exercise when you ignore points and shuffle the same "what if's" and "why's" around rather discussing the points put to you.

Boring.

A lot of fans have said they won't be back until some accountability is shown by RP. Only a section of those will ever return at all but some will, once he's left.

If you choose to ignore the stigma attached to him, go ahead.

If you imagine his presence isn't harmful or mistrusted then that's up to you.

The reality is a different thing altogether. People living with that reality will move the club on, not those clinging to a past which includes someone who should have left the club years ago.


Peevemore:

You have some valid points to make but are not actually making a good case for yourself currently. I realise you are just putting your views out there but you're coming over as a Cheerleader for STF/Petrie.

For instance, I'm also not convinced that if Petrie resigned tomorrow, the gates would suddenly increase by a few thousand. However, you must admit his continued presence is at Hibs is a thorn in the side of many in the Hibs support. The last time Hibs were relegated, Lex Gold felt the only honourable thing to do was to resign. Many feel that Petrie should have done the same.

There is also the suspicion among many that he is a micro-manager who will meddle in the affairs of the Club (given past experience). We don't know for sure but there is a worry that he can't help himself. That suspicion is putting many people off from fully getting behind what Dempster is doing, leading to undue pressure on her and others.

If you're interested, I'll try to explain my point of view.

I think Rod Petrie should go for the reasons listed above. STF obviously thinks otherwise. However it's possible that RP's presence is useful to LD, given that RP has STF's ear and his trust. The club have budgeted to run at a loss this season and it's possible that LD and the board are getting this leeway only because STF has his confidant in the boardroom.

The word "mistrust" keeps cropping up in relation to RP, though I'm not sure why. He may not have been very good at running a football club, but when did he ever lie to us?

I don't understand why any Hibs fan would boycott ER solely because of RP's presence. It's obvious that LD is running the show and staying away can only have an adverse effect on the team. I suspect that some are using this excuse when their real reasons for not attending lie elsewhere.

When the ownership of Hibs changes (because it will at some point), it's vital that the right solution is found. At this moment in time there's nobody in the Buy Hibs set-up that I'd trust with the club. This is purely because I don't know enough about them and there's a huge lack of detail as the proposal stands. One interesting point for me is that Kano headed the "Petrie Out" thing and this seems now to have progressed to, in effect, "Farmer Out" (or nearly because he's got dosh so we'll keep him onside). As someone suggested earler, is it maybe a Trojan horse, mounted because of a personal vendetta against one man? In any case, up until now they've done nothing to convince me that they're a better option than STF - although I accept that it's early days.

This thread should be about Hibs future, not the mistakes made in the past. For me, Hibs are currently about Leeann Dempster and her people, including Alan Stubbs and his team. I've been accused of being boring. I don't think I'm any more boring than the Petrie Out stuff that keeps cropping up, mostly out of context.

I like to think that I have an open mind. I don't think that's the case for everyone when it comes to certain issues.



Does he?

Not on this thread.

Wow!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

[QUOTE=Peevemor;4224818]If you're interested, I'll try to explain my point of view.

I think Rod Petrie should go for the reasons listed above. STF obviously thinks otherwise. However it's possible that RP's presence is useful to LD, given that RP has STF's ear and his trust. The club have budgeted to run at a loss this season and it's possible that LD and the board are getting this leeway only because STF has his confidant in the boardroom.

The word "mistrust" keeps cropping up in relation to RP, though I'm not sure why. He may not have been very good at running a football club, but when did he ever lie to us?

I don't understand why any Hibs fan would boycott ER solely because of RP's presence. It's obvious that LD is running the show and staying away can only have an adverse effect on the team. I suspect that some are using this excuse when their real reasons for not attending lie elsewhere.

When the ownership of Hibs changes (because it will at some point), it's vital that the right solution is found. At this moment in time there's nobody in the Buy Hibs set-up that I'd trust with the club. This is purely because I don't know enough about them and there's a huge lack of detail as the proposal stands. One interesting point for me is that Kano headed the "Petrie Out" thing and this seems now to have progressed to, in effect, "Farmer Out" (or nearly because he's got dosh so we'll keep him onside). As someone suggested earler, is it maybe a Trojan horse, mounted beacuse of a personal vendetta against one man? In any case, up until now they've done nothing to convince me that they're a better option than STF - although I accept that it's early days.

This thread should be about Hibs future, not the mistakes made in the past. For me, Hibs are currently about Leeann Dempster and her people, including Alan Stubbs and his team. I've been accused of being boring. I don't think I'm any more boring than the Petrie Out stuff that keeps cropping up, mostly out of context.

I like to think that I have an open mind. I don't think that's the case for everyone when it comes to certain issues.


Some good points there.

I particularly agree that the merits of BuyHibs, Neil Wheelan or anyone else should not be framed as a direct comparison to Petrie, as Petrie's role is clearly diminishing (although I agree with the majority it should be non existent).

Just because Petrie's strategy and business plan for the club failed latterly (and it did only fail latterly) does not mean that we should jump at the first bunch of people that come along an alternative. And so far, i've seen no alternative from BuyHibs other than a vague notion that the club shall live within its means (what we are trying to do at the moment) but that fans would provide indeterminate income, for an indeterminate purpose and for an indeterminate timescale. Yeah, and that they are going to sell 150 corporate seats.

Does any of that seem a compelling enough reason to oust our current owner?

[Kato]

The 10% that Rod holds is not "part of the club". Whatever Rod has done to the club, good or bad, has nothing to with his shareholding in HFC Holdings.

Explain where I am "disingenuous".

But that 10% is part of the club, no matter the legal/business-ese.

You don't think your being disingenuous by arguing about holding company versus club, or by ignoring the idea that RP's ownership of that 10% could adversely affect the club when making decisions?

[Brightside]

Does he?

Not on this thread.

I disagree. Its very easy to sit and say everyting is rubbish due to Petrie... but LD is now in charge. Attendance will continue to increase if we continue to win games. The stay away fans would soon be asking for tickets if we get to another cup final.

[Brightside]

:top marksRP is a failure as a chairman of our club, if he was in charge of one of TF's tyre outlets he would have had his P 45 a long time ago.

Actually he wouldnt. He may be poor at running a football team but he;s more than capable of running a business. He's accepted he doesnt have the skills to run a football team and thats why LD is now in place.

[Bostonhibby]

To be fair I dont think his shareholding has anything to do with that. He is there because STF wants him there. Whether he held 10% or not. Why use money to buy shares in the Holding Company when you could use it to buy shares in the Football Club?


Do you seriously think that there will be any money left over once all the money paid out has been settled? I suspect there will be a substantial loss.


On the first point, are you saying you can get control of the latter without the former?


On the second point, hypothetical means that I don't know enough about the plans of this group to say what the situation will be, there would however certainly be the income and assets of the football business available to manage going forward whatever happens.

[Ozyhibby]

Actually he wouldnt. He may be poor at running a football team but he;s more than capable of running a business. He's accepted he doesnt have the skills to run a football team and thats why LD is now in place.

I would suggest that if he lost about 20% of the customers at one of the tyre outlets as he has done with Hibs, he would not last long at all.
The only business he runs is failing. That's all you need to know about his business ability.

[Leithenhibby]

If you're interested, I'll try to explain my point of view.

I think Rod Petrie should go for the reasons listed above. STF obviously thinks otherwise. However it's possible that RP's presence is useful to LD, given that RP has STF's ear and his trust. The club have budgeted to run at a loss this season and it's possible that LD and the board are getting this leeway only because STF has his confidant in the boardroom.

The word "mistrust" keeps cropping up in relation to RP, though I'm not sure why. He may not have been very good at running a football club, but when did he ever lie to us?

I don't understand why any Hibs fan would boycott ER solely because of RP's presence. It's obvious that LD is running the show and staying away can only have an adverse effect on the team. I suspect that some are using this excuse when their real reasons for not attending lie elsewhere.

When the ownership of Hibs changes (because it will at some point), it's vital that the right solution is found. At this moment in time there's nobody in the Buy Hibs set-up that I'd trust with the club. This is purely because I don't know enough about them and there's a huge lack of detail as the proposal stands. One interesting point for me is that Kano headed the "Petrie Out" thing and this seems now to have progressed to, in effect, "Farmer Out" (or nearly because he's got dosh so we'll keep him onside). As someone suggested earler, is it maybe a Trojan horse, mounted because of a personal vendetta against one man? In any case, up until now they've done nothing to convince me that they're a better option than STF - although I accept that it's early days.

This thread should be about Hibs future, not the mistakes made in the past. For me, Hibs are currently about Leeann Dempster and her people, including Alan Stubbs and his team. I've been accused of being boring. I don't think I'm any more boring than the Petrie Out stuff that keeps cropping up, mostly out of context.

I like to think that I have an open mind. I don't think that's the case for everyone when it comes to certain issues.


:top marks You make a lot of good fair points that pretty much sums it up for me. :wink:

[Bostonhibby]

[QUOTE=Peevemor;4224818]If you're interested, I'll try to explain my point of view.

I think Rod Petrie should go for the reasons listed above. STF obviously thinks otherwise. However it's possible that RP's presence is useful to LD, given that RP has STF's ear and his trust. The club have budgeted to run at a loss this season and it's possible that LD and the board are getting this leeway only because STF has his confidant in the boardroom.

The word "mistrust" keeps cropping up in relation to RP, though I'm not sure why. He may not have been very good at running a football club, but when did he ever lie to us?

I don't understand why any Hibs fan would boycott ER solely because of RP's presence. It's obvious that LD is running the show and staying away can only have an adverse effect on the team. I suspect that some are using this excuse when their real reasons for not attending lie elsewhere.

When the ownership of Hibs changes (because it will at some point), it's vital that the right solution is found. At this moment in time there's nobody in the Buy Hibs set-up that I'd trust with the club. This is purely because I don't know enough about them and there's a huge lack of detail as the proposal stands. One interesting point for me is that Kano headed the "Petrie Out" thing and this seems now to have progressed to, in effect, "Farmer Out" (or nearly because he's got dosh so we'll keep him onside). As someone suggested earler, is it maybe a Trojan horse, mounted because of a personal vendetta against one man? In any case, up until now they've done nothing to convince me that they're a better option than STF - although I accept that it's early days.

This thread should be about Hibs future, not the mistakes made in the past. For me, Hibs are currently about Leeann Dempster and her people, including Alan Stubbs and his team. I've been accused of being boring. I don't think I'm any more boring than the Petrie Out stuff that keeps cropping up, mostly out of context.

I like to think that I have an open mind. I don't think that's the case for everyone when it comes to certain issues.



Point well made, only bit I differ with is its time for Rod to go irrespective of his allegedly reduced role - he is damaging some of the infrastructure work he did after the mercer debacle by hanging around like a bad smell - I believe he is more involved than he is letting on - why? because he has 10% ish of the holding club where the real power lies and is the conduit to protect/manage/whatever STFs' or his own interests are. His recent football legacy is comical but no one can actually remove him bar STF.

[Kato]

Wow!

Up until this point all I saw was circular questioning and cryptic inferrences re-RP's position.

Granted I've teased some good points from you now, below. Wasn't hard was it. :wink:


If you're interested, I'll try to explain my point of view.

I think Rod Petrie should go for the reasons listed above. STF obviously thinks otherwise. However it's possible that RP's presence is useful to LD, given that RP has STF's ear and his trust. The club have budgeted to run at a loss this season and it's possible that LD and the board are getting this leeway only because STF has his confidant in the boardroom.

It's possible but hasn't been expressed. The value of any advice he's passing on re-running a football club has to be questioned given his track record. Anyway you're guessing, whereas his effect on the club is shown by our position right now. STF could replace the conduit if wanted. Why does it have to be RP?



The word "mistrust" keeps cropping up in relation to RP, though I'm not sure why. He may not have been very good at running a football club, but when did he ever lie to us?

"Mistrust" doesn't mean he's telling or told lies. I don't trust his judgement, I don't trust his communication skills, I don't trust he can give good advice and I don't trust him to make decisions which are to the benefit of the club if he thought his investment was at risk. I don't trust that he has the good of the football team as a priority. I don't trust him with Hibs - no lies involved, just a question of competance.


I don't understand why any Hibs fan would boycott ER solely because of RP's presence. It's obvious that LD is running the show and staying away can only have an adverse effect on the team. I suspect that some are using this excuse when their real reasons for not attending lie elsewhere.

That's your suspicions, not fact. No doubt you are right in that some are using it as an excuse, an excuse which he has provided big style. I know personally some Hibs fans who won't be back through the door until he's gone. I know some who won't be back until both he and STF are gone. There are two guys in our group who have been to away games this season, kids and all, who think it's disgraceful (it is) that he has shown zero accountability and won't be back at ER until he's gone - so whatever you're suspicions are you're only partly right in them.



When the ownership of Hibs changes (because it will at some point), it's vital that the right solution is found. At this moment in time there's nobody in the Buy Hibs set-up that I'd trust with the club. This is purely because I don't know enough about them and there's a huge lack of detail as the proposal stands. One interesting point for me is that Kano headed the "Petrie Out" thing and this seems now to have progressed to, in effect, "Farmer Out" (or nearly because he's got dosh so we'll keep him onside). As someone suggested earler, is it maybe a Trojan horse, mounted because of a personal vendetta against one man? In any case, up until now they've done nothing to convince me that they're a better option than STF - although I accept that it's early days.

That's your choice.


This thread should be about Hibs future, not the mistakes made in the past. For me, Hibs are currently about Leeann Dempster and her people, including Alan Stubbs and his team. I've been accused of being boring. I don't think I'm any more boring than the Petrie Out stuff that keeps cropping up, mostly out of context.

Then you are refusing to see the support as a whole or as a broad base of opinions and claiming you are correct in your outlook which, whether you like or not, not everyone holds to. Nothing is guaranteed in football, when change comes it will be a gamble, just like STF gambled and won. What is obvious is the current dispassionate ownership, where football is an inconvenience to corporate deck-chair tampering, does not work.


I like to think that I have an open mind.

You weren't coming over like that earlier on, as keekaboo said " I realise you are just putting your views out there but you're coming over as a Cheerleader for STF/Petrie."



I don't think that's the case for everyone when it comes to certain issues.

I've had an open mind about RP's tenure since he arrived and can see what he has brought to club's infrastructure. I can also see how he has harmed the club on the park. I've never had blinkers on and don't exporess my views on him in a hateful way. He should have left when the East Stand was completed, which I said on here, and should have been pushed after the Calderwood fiasco which most peopel agreed with.

One issue I've had with his leadership was shown whenever he was asked about the strategy for the team on the park which was "to operate at the top end of the (then) SPL". That isn't a strategy that's a target, a strategy is how that is brought about. It illsutrated to me he didn't have clue, or just didn't care so fobbed the fans with corporate flim-flam/jizz-speak.

RP isn't the future of Hibs and at the present on balance he's not doing us any good.

[Ozyhibby]

Just got an email from BuyHibs confirming that the DD I had set up has been cancelled and won't be reactivated until a deal to purchase the club has been done. They also confirmed they would notify me in advance of this happening.
Very professional.

If your thinking about pledging, get it done now. Let these guys know that you are there to be won over.

[stantonhibby]

Just got an email from BuyHibs confirming that the DD I had set up has been cancelled and won't be reactivated until a deal to purchase the club has been done. They also confirmed they would notify me in advance of this happening.
Very professional.

If your thinking about pledging, get it done now. Let these guys know that you are there to be won over.

Why don't you just stop telling people what to do.

[Ozyhibby]

Why don't you just stop telling people what to do.

?

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?294268-Questions-for-BuyHibs&p=4224879#post4224879

[Cropley10]

Pertinent it may be but look at the way that has worked out? Not LD's fault by any means but their attendances have fallen, their contributions have slowed down to a very low level and are seeking immediate inputs of cash to see them through. This despite them finishing in the top half of the Premier League and European qualifications.

Hibs are a far bigger club than Motherwell will ever be. The risks with these Fan Ownership models are far too big for a club our size to take. Without investors willing to put vast amounts of money in and expect to lose on that investment then I am afraid this is doomed to failure before it even starts.

Also if, as they say, they have investors waiting in the wings then we need to know who, what kind of investment and how this will be used for a start. I worry that some people are trying to play real life football manager and it will be catastrophic for Hibs.

Too many variables for me which can only lead to further uncertainty.

Think you might be conflating two things here. LD has experienced of fan ownership - something STF knows and the size and recent success of Motherwell.

What you - like lots of others - are doing is believing there are investors willing to set fire to their cash by investing in Hibs.

The only way forward is to NOT spend more than we earn and the more fans a club has the easier fan ownership becomes.


Sent from a phone

[Cropley10]

We're told nothing has changed and its up to anyone who wants to buy the club to make a case. That doesn't mean it's needed or wanted. I don't think we need to force that change just now so Im not supportive. Motherwell has been a disaster by the way.

You don't seem to be able hold the thought in your head that STF might want this to happen and/or that's why LD is here.




Sent from a phone

[Cropley10]

Actually he wouldnt. He may be poor at running a football team but he;s more than capable of running a business. He's accepted he doesnt have the skills to run a football team and thats why LD is now in place.

Myth. We've lost millions. Petrie spent transfer windfall income on bricks & mortar, which is s piece. Anyone could have done that, within reason.

Being in business is about hiring the right people. Petrie has failed abjectly at that, consistently so we find ourselves in Div 2 with lower gates and more debt.

Furthermore running a business must also be about developing and leading people, another thing he's failed badly at too.

Mr Petrie is not good at running a business where the business is Hibernian FC.


Sent from a phone

[Andy74]

You don't seem to be able hold the thought in your head that STF might want this to happen and/or that's why LD is here.




Sent from a phone

I can hold that in my head thanks.

What I am saying is that Leeann told the consultation nights that this has not been instigated by the club. Sir Tom has not changed his stance in terms of not actively looking to change the ownership. As has been the case he will look at any proposals and so the consultation was as a result of a lot of approaches being made to the club and a way to find out we actually want to propose.

When asked about price she was clear on pushing it back to what is it that you want to buy and how.

Leannn has talked from day one about community involvement and fan representation. I'm not sure she has ever said that part of her role was to move the club to new ownership or that she was brough here to promote that.

She was very clear that the Motherwell situation did not work - the number and size of donations dried up very quickly. I'd be very surprised if she intended to come here and replicate that.

I've said it a few time recently - it would be helpful for Sir Tom to clarify what the long term arrangements are for the club so we could judge whether we had a need to find new owners or not, however, that's not really normal practice, he is still here and his estate is his business right now. We should trust then, that the usual response of not actively looking to sell but happy to talk about a proposal still stands.

[CropleyWasGod]

Myth. We've lost millions. Petrie spent transfer windfall income on bricks & mortar, which is s piece. Anyone could have done that, within reason.

Being in business is about hiring the right people. Petrie has failed abjectly at that, consistently so we find ourselves in Div 2 with lower gates and more debt.

Furthermore running a business must also be about developing and leading people, another thing he's failed badly at too.

Mr Petrie is not good at running a business where the business is Hibernian FC.


Sent from a phone

It's not a myth. We've made profits in 7 of the last 10 years, probably 11 as I expect 2014 to show a loss.

[blackpoolhibs]

It's not a myth. We've made profits in 7 of the last 10 years, probably 11 as I expect 2014 to show a loss.


I'd say we have thrown away Millions on bad management appointments, who in turn have spent fortunes on useless duds that have had their contracts paid up or rotted away in the stiffs picking up those wages. Indeed a lot of them rotted away in the first team contributing to the position we find ourselves in today.

Having an owner who actually bothered to run the club would be great, but we dont have that. Instead we have an owner who put someone in charge to do that job for him.

I'd say that man Rod Petrie has thrown away millions, profit or not.

[silverhibee]

And he is employed by STF, who will ultimately decide if this is a goer or not.

Okay Kaiser, lets say you are STF, would you have kept Petrie on at the club after being relegated last season and him wasting over £1m on the signing of Butcher & co then putting them on gardening leave 7-8 months later after getting us relegated, and that is just in the last year, are you just going to keep letting your man Petrie make mistake after mistake at your club with your money regards managers, we keep getting reminded that you have to pump money in to the club every season to balance the books, is this because your man Petrie is running the club poorly, your man has taken this great club in to the Championship league and you are happy with that, what about your 1000s of customers who are not happy that Mr Petrie is still at the club causing divide amongst your customers.

You could at least have the courtesy to make a statement to your customers on the future of HFC and why you have decided to keep Rod Petrie on at the club after relegation when so many other employees at the time lost there jobs due to relegation, are the Board untouchable.?

For the good of this club going forward then Mr Petrie cannot be any part of the club going forward, simple as that, he must be removed from Hibernian FC and let him leave and he can go look after one of your other businesses you have, see how that works out for the two of you.

[Kaiser1962]

On the first point, are you saying you can get control of the latter without the former?

Yes. If the 90% shareholder agrees to sell there is little the 10% shareholder can do about it.



On the second point, hypothetical means that I don't know enough about the plans of this group to say what the situation will be, there would however certainly be the income and assets of the football business available to manage going forward whatever happens.

I have read my response again and it came across as a bit snippy. What I was trying to say was that HFC Holdings is considerably down on it's dealings with the Football Club and I presume any sale price received by Holdings would have to be offset against this before any of the shareholders received any payment.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd say we have thrown away Millions on bad management appointments, who in turn have spent fortunes on useless duds that have had their contracts paid up or rotted away in the stiffs picking up those wages. Indeed a lot of them rotted away in the first team contributing to the position we find ourselves in today.

Having an owner who actually bothered to run the club would be great, but we dont have that. Instead we have an owner who put someone in charge to do that job for him.

I'd say that man Rod Petrie has thrown away millions, profit or not.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.

[Kato]

I'd say we have thrown away Millions on bad management appointments, who in turn have spent fortunes on useless duds that have had their contracts paid up or rotted away in the stiffs picking up those wages. Indeed a lot of them rotted away in the first team contributing to the position we find ourselves in today.

Having an owner who actually bothered to run the club would be great, but we dont have that. Instead we have an owner who put someone in charge to do that job for him.

I'd say that man Rod Petrie has thrown away millions, profit or not.

Exactly - whether the sums look good on a spreadsheet or not we've wasted millions and spent millions more on infrastructure and whilst the latter might to the benefit of the club long term in the light of the former it seems silly.

I don't cheer on spreadsheets and I'm not excited enough about infrastructure to sing songs about it.

[Andy74]

I'd say we have thrown away Millions on bad management appointments, who in turn have spent fortunes on useless duds that have had their contracts paid up or rotted away in the stiffs picking up those wages. Indeed a lot of them rotted away in the first team contributing to the position we find ourselves in today.

Having an owner who actually bothered to run the club would be great, but we dont have that. Instead we have an owner who put someone in charge to do that job for him.

I'd say that man Rod Petrie has thrown away millions, profit or not.

Agree that RP should go as Chair but al least he has been removed from day to day running of the club.

I don't get that the owner should be responsible for actually running the company though.

[Bostonhibby]

Yes




I have read my response again and it came across as a bit snippy. What I was trying to say was that HFC Holdings is considerably down on it's dealings with the Football Club and I presume any sale price received by Holdings would have to be offset against this before any of the shareholders received.

:thumbsup: Nae worries, good debate.

On first point it really cant be done on current structure. My miniscule number of Hibernian Football Clubs shares cannot make the HFC Holdings majority shareholders - RP & STF do anything - if they want to back the eagerly awaited club plans for example then no one can force anything.

STF deliberately set up HFC holdings to defend Hibernian Football club from the problems he bailed it out from post mercer - its never been an investment returning dividends andyou might say he has also used it to help the club manage credit and for beneficial loans as far as I can see. I think it is those dealings over the years, certainly early on, that have shown him not to be in it as investment of the head. As for Petrie, who knows what his share was for or what he wants from it.

Time will tell I guess but I hope that whatever he does next will prove to be something that is about preserving the club and strengthening it rather than cashing in at the first opportunity.

[Kaiser1962]

Okay Kaiser, lets say you are STF, would you have kept Petrie on at the club after being relegated last season and him wasting over £1m on the signing of Butcher & co then putting them on gardening leave 7-8 months later after getting us relegated, and that is just in the last year, are you just going to keep letting your man Petrie make mistake after mistake at your club with your money regards managers, we keep getting reminded that you have to pump money in to the club every season to balance the books, is this because your man Petrie is running the club poorly, your man has taken this great club in to the Championship league and you are happy with that, what about your 1000s of customers who are not happy that Mr Petrie is still at the club causing divide amongst your customers.

You could at least have the courtesy to make a statement to your customers on the future of HFC and why you have decided to keep Rod Petrie on at the club after relegation when so many other employees at the time lost there jobs due to relegation, are the Board untouchable.?

For the good of this club going forward then Mr Petrie cannot be any part of the club going forward, simple as that, he must be removed from Hibernian FC and let him leave and he can go look after one of your other businesses you have, see how that works out for the two of you.

I have supported Rod Petrie in the past Silver but recognise that, post Butcher/Malpas, it is in our (and his) best interests that he step back/move on. He is too divisive a figure and anyhow he has plenty he could be doing elsewhere in Farmer's other companies. We needed change and LD was appointed CEO, Stubbs arrived with wholesale changes taking place at both ER and EM, things appear to improving so lets see where we go.

My understanding is that RP wanted to step down after the Calderwood saga and was persuaded to stay on by STF who mounted the robust defence of him at the AGM. With hindsight that was probably the time to go with our thanks as all that is now happening is that animosity and conflict are being created.

At the end of the day though it is STF's decision both on Petrie and any takeover.

[Cropley10]

It's not a myth. We've made profits in 7 of the last 10 years, probably 11 as I expect 2014 to show a loss.

So profit at the expense of everything else including deserting customers and increased debt?

Anyone can run a successful business if they have a lender of last resort providing soft loans to mask the performance of the business at every other level.




Sent from a phone

[Kaiser1962]

:thumbsup: Nae worries, good debate.

On first point it really cant be done on current structure. My miniscule number of Hibernian Football Clubs shares cannot make the HFC Holdings majority shareholders - RP & STF do anything - if they want to back the eagerly awaited club plans for example then no one can force anything.



Sorry we're at opposite ends here. What I meant to say was that Holdings can sell their 98.13% stake in the Football Club and as that is essentially STF (controlling 90% of Holdings) there is little Rod Petrie (10% of Holdings) can do about it. The Football club would be sold. I cannot really envisage a scenario where they would be in disagreement, at least not publicly.

[silverhibee]

Whilst choosing to ignore the wholesale changes that have been made since the arrival of Leeann Dempster?

Backroom changes, well overdue, the set up at East Mains was piss poor.

New management team, still need time but are showing a bit of promise, but still a fair bit of from Miss Dempsters prediction that we are aiming to go up at the first time of asking.

Loan deals, did Miss Dempster say she wasn't a big fan of bringing players in on loan, how many loan players do we have.?

Since i go along and watch Hibs let me tell you this, the fans aren't buying in to the wholesale changes that have taken place so far, maybe it has something to do with Petrie still at the club but the fans aren't banging down the doors to get back to ER right now with the wholesale changes that are taking place, 700 tickets put up for sale on Monday for Dumbarton game, a few years back they would have been snapped up with in hours, now been 4 days since put on sale to ST holders and they still haven't all been sold, yes we will sell the 700 but it is taking fans a wee bit longer to snap them up for some reason.

If these wholesale changes Miss Dempster is making had included the removal of Mr Petrie then i think ER would be a better place to go to and we would probably have seen more fans buying in to her way ahead with Hibs, as long as the bad smell that is Rod Petrie is at the club lurking in the background then a lot of fans are going to be a bit wary of things she says while Petrie is at the club, simply put, he is dividing the support and he will continue to do so while he remains at HFC.

He needs to go so that Hibernian FC can move forward.

Then we can fully trust Ms Dempster.

[CropleyWasGod]

So profit at the expense of everything else including deserting customers and increased debt?



Sent from a phone

That's not what I said. I was taking issue with your comment that we'd "lost millions".

[silverhibee]

:agree:Its the holding company we want to own / influence, the more of that STF transfers or issues new shares to fans in, the more influence fans and maybe anyone else who buys in gains - they own Hibs - if we could get more than 10% we'd outvote RP! but unlikely it would shift him whilst he has STF support.

All of that is of course as the current structure stands.

Can you buy shares in the holding company.

As it seems shares in Hibs are worth nothing.

[silverhibee]

No, but I'm not convinced that his going will significantly change the way that the club is currently run.

I think Ms Dempster would disagree with you on that one.

[Kaiser1962]

Can you buy shares in the holding company.

As it seems shares in Hibs are worth nothing.

I dont think so. HFC Holdings is at the end of a chain ultimately owned by a trust called the Sir Tom Farmer 1998 Settlement. There may be a clue in the name as to how long STF has been trying to get something of the ground. Also, there may not. :greengrin

[silverhibee]

Whether you like it or not, or whether RP is still extending an influence or not there is a stigma surrounding him that is still, and will continue to, hamper the progress of the club. His departure would see some freshness and that stigma and potential influence removed.

And STF should see this as well.

[blackpoolhibs]

Backroom changes, well overdue, the set up at East Mains was piss poor.

New management team, still need time but are showing a bit of promise, but still a fair bit of from Miss Dempsters prediction that we are aiming to go up at the first time of asking.

Loan deals, did Miss Dempster say she wasn't a big fan of bringing players in on loan, how many loan players do we have.?

Since i go along and watch Hibs let me tell you this, the fans aren't buying in to the wholesale changes that have taken place so far, maybe it has something to do with Petrie still at the club but the fans aren't banging down the doors to get back to ER right now with the wholesale changes that are taking place, 700 tickets put up for sale on Monday for Dumbarton game, a few years back they would have been snapped up with in hours, now been 4 days since put on sale to ST holders and they still haven't all been sold, yes we will sell the 700 but it is taking fans a wee bit longer to snap them up for some reason.

If these wholesale changes Miss Dempster is making had included the removal of Mr Petrie then i think ER would be a better place to go to and we would probably have seen more fans buying in to her way ahead with Hibs, as long as the bad smell that is Rod Petrie is at the club lurking in the background then a lot of fans are going to be a bit wary of things she says while Petrie is at the club, simply put, he is dividing the support and he will continue to do so while he remains at HFC.

He needs to go so that Hibernian FC can move forward.

Then we can fully trust Ms Dempster.

And for some and i include myself in this, i have seen these background and backroom changes so many times before. And of course things are improving, ffs we are in the championship. If we were as bad as we were last season this place would have exploded by now.

We all want Stubbs and his team to do well, thats a given. Yet as i said before, i have heard the same noises and seen similar improvements albeit in the top division before.

As you say SH while Petrie is still in the building, there is a smell that's lingering, reminding folk of the past, his past and why we are where we are.

[Bostonhibby]

Can you buy shares in the holding company.

As it seems shares in Hibs are worth nothing.

never seen them listed - HFC holdings was set up just to hold the football club in such a way that mercer type tossers couldn't get near it, it doesn't appear to be a profit making dividend paying business but there are probably others on here who could correct me on that one.

The only ones that ever come up are those in the Football club where the club administer a list of interested buyers and when a seller comes up a deal is struck - you are never going to get a dividend from the Hibs ones that's for sure:greengrin but I doubt that's why many have them.

[Bostonhibby]

Sorry we're at opposite ends here. What I meant to say was that Holdings can sell their 98.13% stake in the Football Club and as that is essentially STF (controlling 90% of Holdings) there is little Rod Petrie (10% of Holdings) can do about it. The Football club would be sold. I cannot really envisage a scenario where they would be in disagreement, at least not publicly.

Ah - I see now, and agree on that point - doing too many things at same time - my focus was on the fact that only what STF wants to happen can happen and nothing can be forced by anyone - RP included. I wasn't focussed on what they might do to each other (!) but trying to put across that no one can do anything without HFC Holdings (Sir Tom's) support and his shares.

[silverhibee]

No. Leeann Dempster as CEO runs the club. Rod Petrie is the liaison between her and STF (as is STF's will).



From what I can see, the club is properly run.



I think that it's precisely why some fans want to take control. I'm currently not convinced that it's a good idea.

You should pop along to ER and see for yourself how well the club is being run.

Several protests over the last few years, a stadium that is more than half empty at games, sitting in the Championship league in 4th position, yep, it's being run properly, FFS we couldn't even give tickets away for nothing for Pat Stantons Birthday game, now i don't no the last time you were at Easter Road to watch Hibs, but i have been there for most of them over the last 7 seasons and thousands of fans must disagree with you about how well the club is being run as they haven't bothered to come back and watch Hibs, we have went from 15000 to 7000 since Mowbray left, did they just get bored and say "not for me any more, I would rather go shopping with the wife" or are they pissed of with the way the club has been run under Petries stewardship in charge and decided to not go back unless it's a day out for the day trippers.

[CropleyWasGod]

never seen them listed - HFC holdings was set up just to hold the football club in such a way that mercer type tossers couldn't get near it, it doesn't appear to be a profit making dividend paying business but there are probably others on here who could correct me on that one.

The only ones that ever come up are those in the Football club where the club administer a list of interested buyers and when a seller comes up a deal is struck - you are never going to get a dividend from the Hibs ones that's for sure:greengrin but I doubt that's why many have them.

It made losses of about £160k in 2012 and 2013. No dividends, and nothing paid to the 2 directors. Its only income is the rent and interest from the football club.

[Ozyhibby]

You should pop along to ER and see for yourself how well the club is being run.

Several protests over the last few years, a stadium that is more than half empty at games, sitting in the Championship league in 4th position, yep, it's being run properly, FFS we couldn't even give tickets away for nothing for Pat Stantons Birthday game, now i don't no the last time you were at Easter Road to watch Hibs, but i have been there for most of them over the last 7 seasons and thousands of fans must disagree with you about how well the club is being run as they haven't bothered to come back and watch Hibs, we have went from 15000 to 7000 since Mowbray left, did they just get bored and say "not for me any more, I would rather go shopping with the wife" or are they pissed of with the way the club has been run under Petries stewardship in charge and decided to not go back unless it's a day out for the day trippers.

Could not agree more.

[Bostonhibby]

It made losses of about £160k in 2012 and 2013. No dividends, and nothing paid to the 2 directors. Its only income is the rent and interest from the football club.

Cheers CWG, so it has probably cost STF quite a bit over and above its turnover to run / own the club, something Buyhibs need to bear in mind if they are starting with no new money or at least in the absence of any of the directors or mystery backers etc putting money up over and above whatever it might cost to prise the club from STF if he wanted to sell. Too many ifs at this stage - my brain hurts, am off to the rangers thread to hurl abuse at them its so much easier.

[Kato]

You should pop along to ER and see for yourself how well the club is being run.

Several protests over the last few years, a stadium that is more than half empty at games, sitting in the Championship league in 4th position, yep, it's being run properly, FFS we couldn't even give tickets away for nothing for Pat Stantons Birthday game, now i don't no the last time you were at Easter Road to watch Hibs, but i have been there for most of them over the last 7 seasons and thousands of fans must disagree with you about how well the club is being run as they haven't bothered to come back and watch Hibs, we have went from 15000 to 7000 since Mowbray left, did they just get bored and say "not for me any more, I would rather go shopping with the wife" or are they pissed of with the way the club has been run under Petries stewardship in charge and decided to not go back unless it's a day out for the day trippers.

Well said.

How anyone can say Hibs have been properly over the last few seasons is something I just cannot fathom.

[silverhibee]

It's not case of blinkers it's a case of track record which, in a football sense, is woeful, accountability and his continued presence which is percieved as harmful. Only a very few people trust him and support for him to stay in his position is frankly beyond my comprehension given his lack of leadership.

I support LD in whatever she does and I personally don't believe RP interferes in that. However the stigma surrounding his presence remains and no amount of calls to remove blinkers or pedantic disingenuousness is going to change that, ever.

Football. A results business, managers no this so well, a few bad results and few more and they no what is coming if they don't turn things round quickly, the sack, now i can understand 3 or even 4 managers under Petries reign getting the bullet, but FFS i have lost count on the amount of managers that have come through the revolving doors at ER but is it double figures yet since Petrie has been in charge, when does it dawn on STF that the guy he has left in charge of Hibs is making a pigs ear of things and obviously isn't the right man to move the club forward, as he seems to be picking the wrong choice of manager most of the time, Mr Teflon seems untouchable for all his mistakes from STF, just think of this, if the club hadn't brought in LD then I'm pretty sure Terry Butcher would still be sitting in the dug out at the start of this season in the Championship. Petrie would have dug the heels in and told us "terry will get us back up at the first time of asking, he has experience of doing this while at Inverness", but forgetting to mention that Butcher got them relegated(he was the manager when relegated after taking charge of them in a bad way) but that was on TB CV, got Inverness relegated, they would have then retreated to the Hibs bunker for the summer and Petrie would sit there at the first game with everything crossed hoping he had made the right choice when everyone else would be screaming he has got it wrong once again.

[silverhibee]

But all that stuff is no longer his job.

Who sacked Butcher.?

[jacomo]

Well said.

How anyone can say Hibs have been properly over the last few seasons is something I just cannot fathom.

This club has missed a once in a generation opportunity to challenge in a top division with no Rangers, no Hearts, and a Celtic team adjusting to a new manager. That's probably a once-in-a-century opportunity, in fact.

Petrie even issued a statement that apologised for the shambles of last season.

LD admitted that her first months in the role were 'crisis management'.

I believe that we are now on the right track - finally - but to say this club is properly run defies belief.

[silverhibee]

Agree with that however I dont think everything would suddenly be all roses and skipping through the tulips when he goes. :greengrin

I think the decision on whether the latest proposal is a goer shouldnt be based on the whether RP would go or not it should be on whether it will benefit the club for the longer term.

RP leaving the club now would benefit the club in the longer term, he is causing a divide at the club with the supporters, Petrie is the man who has got us where we are now, not in a good place are we, hopefully Dempster is the woman who can take us forward, but she can only do that if Petrie has nothing to do with Hibernian FC.

He has to go.

[silverhibee]

Prices? Championship?

Nothing to do with all the managers he keeps getting wrong, and the " coup de grace" the three amigo's who took us in to the championship, and yep prices, charging SPL prices for Championship football, and back to the three amigos, how much did it cost the club securing them as in a fee and now paying them while they tend to there gardens, all Petries doing, what a guy he is, cost us millions on managers but is untouchable.

But don't you worry, the fans that turn up to watch Hibs will keep paying for his mistakes. Happy days Eh.

[greenginger]

Cheers CWG, so it has probably cost STF quite a bit over and above its turnover to run / own the club, something Buyhibs need to bear in mind if they are starting with no new money or at least in the absence of any of the directors or mystery backers etc putting money up over and above whatever it might cost to prise the club from STF if he wanted to sell. Too many ifs at this stage - my brain hurts, am off to the rangers thread to hurl abuse at them its so much easier.

Looking at what the Yams did to get the Budge enterprise up and running might give an indication of what BuyHibs requires to even get to a starting position.

FoH donated £ 1 million as working capital in May to get the show on the road and will donate a further £ 1 million next April.
By the miracle of administration the only debt Hearts had was around £ 500,000 for football creditors , whilst we have around £ 10,000 million in mortgages and parent company debt.

Hearts also had Budge to put up initial £ 2.5 million purchase price.

All-in-all it looks like BuyHibs have a few mountains to climb. Not saying people are wasting their time, but , I think I will wait for the Clubs proposals for the future ownership of the Club.

[silverhibee]

I disagree. Its very easy to sit and say everyting is rubbish due to Petrie... but LD is now in charge. Attendance will continue to increase if we continue to win games. The stay away fans would soon be asking for tickets if we get to another cup final.

Why were they not asking for them for the Pat Stanton Birthday game, folk couldn't give away free tickets for that game, 6000 Hibs fans in attendance to watch Dundee Utd in the cup a few weeks a go, in fact i think imo if we did get to another cup final we would maybe not sell out our allocation, it's getting that bad.

[H18Y GW]

You should pop along to ER and see for yourself how well the club is being run.

Several protests over the last few years, a stadium that is more than half empty at games, sitting in the Championship league in 4th position, yep, it's being run properly, FFS we couldn't even give tickets away for nothing for Pat Stantons Birthday game, now i don't no the last time you were at Easter Road to watch Hibs, but i have been there for most of them over the last 7 seasons and thousands of fans must disagree with you about how well the club is being run as they haven't bothered to come back and watch Hibs, we have went from 15000 to 7000 since Mowbray left, did they just get bored and say "not for me any more, I would rather go shopping with the wife" or are they pissed of with the way the club has been run under Petries stewardship in charge and decided to not go back unless it's a day out for the day trippers.

Im really not sure how that has anything to do with Dempster apart from the overachieving club she left to take over a shambles , both clubs appear to be moving in opposite directions to what they were , I'm no Rod Petrie guy and I'm a personal friend of Kano but this just doesn't do it for me ..

Change for good NOT
Change in desperation

[Bostonhibby]

Looking at what the Yams did to get the Budge enterprise up and running might give an indication of what BuyHibs requires to even get to a starting position.

FoH donated £ 1 million as working capital in May to get the show on the road and will donate a further £ 1 million next April.
By the miracle of administration the only debt Hearts had was around £ 500,000 for football creditors , whilst we have around £ 10,000 million in mortgages and parent company debt.

Hearts also had Budge to put up initial £ 2.5 million purchase price.

All-in-all it looks like BuyHibs have a few mountains to climb. Not saying people are wasting their time, but , I think I will wait for the Clubs proposals for the future ownership of the Club.

:agree: apart from the ten thousand million - unless of course that's what it cost us to get rid of Butcher:greengrin

For me the race can only begin from the starting point of the club proposal because like it or not what happens or doesn't is all down to STF. If the club proposal has his support it gets interesting then, I feel this is why Buyhibs got in their first as the anti establishment candidates, something I don't blame them for but often the race is won by the best researched and prepared case in my experience.

[silverhibee]

Actually he wouldnt. He may be poor at running a football team but he;s more than capable of running a business. He's accepted he doesnt have the skills to run a football team and thats why LD is now in place.

When did he accept this, i could have told him that after the Malmo game, to not sack the manager after that game just shows you he no's f*** all about football, anyone with any clue about football would have seen that night that Fenlon had to go right after the final whistle.

[Kato]

I disagree. Its very easy to sit and say everyting is rubbish due to Petrie...

Il'l point out that I'm not doing that, but maybe it's easy to do so because there's a kernel of truth in it.




Attendance will continue to increase if we continue to win games.

The stay away fans would soon be asking for tickets if we get to another cup final.

Petrie took people for granted for years, not so easy nowadays.

[Andy74]

When did he accept this, i could have told him that after the Malmo game, to not sack the manager after that game just shows you he no's f*** all about football, anyone with any clue about football would have seen that night that Fenlon had to go right after the final whistle.

That's why fans shouldn't run football clubs!

[silverhibee]

I have supported Rod Petrie in the past Silver but recognise that, post Butcher/Malpas, it is in our (and his) best interests that he step back/move on. He is too divisive a figure and anyhow he has plenty he could be doing elsewhere in Farmer's other companies. We needed change and LD was appointed CEO, Stubbs arrived with wholesale changes taking place at both ER and EM, things appear to improving so lets see where we go.

My understanding is that RP wanted to step down after the Calderwood saga and was persuaded to stay on by STF who mounted the robust defence of him at the AGM. With hindsight that was probably the time to go with our thanks as all that is now happening is that animosity and conflict are being created.

At the end of the day though it is STF's decision both on Petrie and any takeover.


:aok:

Calderwood strangely enough had the backing of the squad at the time, it was more how he was going about his business away from Hibs that was the problem for the Hibs fans i think, meeting with McClaren, bag of sweeties nonsense and his touting himself to get away from the club, for Petrie to back him and then give a statement about misinformed stats for Calderwood was taking the fans for mugs at the time. STF should have done the right thing and excepted Petries resignation if that's what he put forward to STF, I'm pretty sure STF would have found another replacement no bother who could have possibly done a better job with a better personality to bring to the club.

Maybe now is the time for STF to relieve Petrie of his duties at Hibs and let him (ruin) :greengrin i mean take over one of his other businesses.

[Peevemor]

Backroom changes, well overdue, the set up at East Mains was piss poor.

So you're accepting that LD has been allowed to make wholesale changes, overdue or not?


New management team, still need time but are showing a bit of promise, but still a fair bit of from Miss Dempsters prediction that we are aiming to go up at the first time of asking.

IIRC it wasn't a prediction, it was a target


Loan deals, did Miss Dempster say she wasn't a big fan of bringing players in on loan, how many loan players do we have.?

Again, IIRC, she said that loan deals weren't always good value for money. I've no idea what we're paying for these guys, but on the whole they've done OK on the park.


Since i go along and watch Hibs let me tell you this, the fans aren 't buying in to the wholesale changes that have taken place so far, maybe it has something to do with Petrie still at the club but the fans aren't banging down the doors to get back to ER right now with the wholesale changes that are taking place, 700 tickets put up for sale on Monday for Dumbarton game, a few years back they would have been snapped up with in hours, now been 4 days since put on sale to ST holders and they still haven't all been sold, yes we will sell the 700 but it is taking fans a wee bit longer to snap them up for some reason.

If these wholesale changes Miss Dempster is making had included the removal of Mr Petrie then i think ER would be a better place to go to and we would probably have seen more fans buying in to her way ahead withHibs, as long as the bad smell that is Rod Petrie is at the club lurking in the background then a lot of fans are going to be a bit wary of things she says while Petrie is at the club, simply put, he is dividing the support and he will continue to do so while he remains at HFC.

I'm sure you're aware that the removal of RP isn't within LD's power.


He needs to go so that Hibernian FC can move forward.

I agree.


Then we can fully trust Ms Dempster.

So you don't trust LD because of RP? I honestly don't understand that line of thinking.


I think Ms Dempster would disagree with you on that one.

You possibly have inside info. that I don't. All I can go on is the number of her initiatives that have been put in place. It looks to me like she's getting a reasonably free rein.


You should pop along to ER and see for yourself how well the club is being run.

Several protests over the last few years, a stadium that is more than half empty at games, sitting in the Championship league in 4th position, yep, it's being run properly, FFS we couldn't even give tickets away for nothing for Pat Stantons Birthday game, now i don't no the last time you were at Easter Road to watch Hibs, but i have been there for most of them over the last 7 seasons and thousands of fans must disagree with you about how well the club is being run as they haven't bothered to come back and watch Hibs, we have went from 15000 to 7000 since Mowbray left, did they just get bored and say "not for me any more, I would rather go shopping with the wife" or are they pissed of with the way the club has been run under Petries stewardship in charge and decided to not go back unless it's a day out for the day trippers.

You're harping on about the past. I answered a question, saying that I think the club is currently being run properly.


Who sacked Butcher.?

My understanding is that it was LD's decision.

One last thing. I find your wee digs about me not going to matches extremely petty. I don't have to justify myself to you nor to anyone else, but I still watch as many matches as possible, I still contribute regularly to the club as well as many of the good causes often highlighted on here and, above all, I do my best to keep in touch with what's going on at Hibs, and from the look of things I have a better grasp than certain posters on here.

If you don't think I merit an opinion - tough!

[Peevemor]

Well said.

How anyone can say Hibs have been properly over the last few seasons is something I just cannot fathom.

Who said that?

[silverhibee]

That's why fans shouldn't run football clubs!

He should have shut up shop at 2-0 down instead of asking players to drive forward for a goal, the game was over, lets not concede any more but it turned in to one of the most embarrassing nights ever at ER.

He should have been sacked after that game.

And on the night we were mourning the death of Lawrie Reilly, Mr Fenlon and his team embarrassed us, shameful.

[silverhibee]

So you're accepting that LD has been allowed to make wholesale changes, overdue or not?



IIRC it wasn't a prediction, it was a target



Again, IIRC, she said that loan deals weren't always good value for money. I've no idea what we're paying for these guys, but on the whole they've done OK on the park.



I'm sure you're aware that the removal of RP isn't within LD's power.


I agree.



So you don't trust LD because of RP? I honestly don't understand that line of thinking.



You possibly have inside info. that I don't. All I can go on is the number of her initiatives that have been put in place. It looks to me like she's getting a reasonably free rein.



You're harping on about the past. I answered a question, saying that I think the club is currently being run properly.



My understanding is that it was LD's decision.

One last thing. I find your wee digs about me not going to matches extremely petty. I don't have to justify myself to you nor to anyone else, but I still watch as many matches as possible, I still contribute regularly to the club as well as many of the good causes often highlighted on here and, above all, I do my best to keep in touch with what's going on at Hibs, and from the look of things I have a better grasp than certain posters on here.

If you don't think I merit an opinion - tough!

Off course you merit an opinion.

But to sit where you are and say everything is rosy, then crack on, i have sat there for years home and away and i don't see it like that, you have to be there to understand what I'm saying, it has been bloody horrible to watch for a number of years, and that is not a dig, walking away from ER after games has been utterly depressing, away games just as bad mind you, Ross County at night at the end of last season springs to mind how bad it has been.

Have we turned a corner under LD GC and our manager Alan Stubbs( he very rarely gets mentioned so i think i will do so, he is the one making the changes after all, it's results that matter to us most and he is starting to get them) I wasn't the person who posted a statement on here about all the own goals they had made since arriving here, I wasn't the person who said they would communicate more with fans through message boards and other outlets but they don't hang about to answer any questions, so much for communicating with the fans, anyway have the team turned a corner, hard to say really, we still look very shaky at the back as was seen on Saturday (if you could see) the young keeper looked very nervous, hopefully Oxley is back fit for Saturday, sad to say that QOTS will be a big test for us on Saturday.

I really hope Leeann makes her target this year.

[Cropley10]

That's not what I said. I was taking issue with your comment that we'd "lost millions".

Thanks for clarifying that part.

Genuine question - did soft loans allow us to make a profit, where ordinarily we shouldn't?

I stand by comment though that I don't think Petre is a good businessman, not by any measure or yardstick.

[Kaiser1962]

never seen them listed - HFC holdings was set up just to hold the football club in such a way that mercer type tossers couldn't get near it, it doesn't appear to be a profit making dividend paying business but there are probably others on here who could correct me on that one.

The only ones that ever come up are those in the Football club where the club administer a list of interested buyers and when a seller comes up a deal is struck - you are never going to get a dividend from the Hibs ones that's for sure:greengrin but I doubt that's why many have them.

I agree with that. My original discussion with Kato was around the significance of Rod's 10% shareholding in the Holding Company.



You don't think your being disingenuous by arguing about holding company versus club, or by ignoring the idea that RP's ownership of that 10% could adversely affect the club when making decisions?

I dont, no. I think Rod's 10% shareholding is immaterial when held against STF's control over the 90%. I think you are confusing Rod's role, and decisions, at the Football Club with his role as director and shareholder of the holding company.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for clarifying that part.

Genuine question - did soft loans allow us to make a profit, where ordinarily we shouldn't?

I stand by comment though that I don't think Petre is a good businessman, not by any measure or yardstick.
Loans have virtually no effect on profit, except for the interest charged on them. Nothing is charged on the soft loans. On the secured loan, we are charged at, I think, base plus 1.5%.

In the 2013 accounts, the soft loan advanced was £250k. The total soft loan £1.5m. So we didn't pay about 30k that we would have in a commercial situation.

[7Hero]

I stand by comment though that I don't think Petre is a good businessman, not by any measure or yardstick.

he's an accountant.. Not even close to being a business man.... total train wreck of a human being...

[Peevemor]

he's an accountant.. Not even close to being a business man.... total train wreck of a human being...

"Train wreck of a human being"? On what are you basing this statement?

[CropleyWasGod]

he's an accountant.. Not even close to being a business man.... total train wreck of a human being...

No need.

[greenginger]

he's an accountant.. Not even close to being a business man.... total train wreck of a human being...


The other 28 STF companies he is a director of seem to perform OK. There again, he does not run any of those companies, just as he is no longer running our football club.

That's the new CEO's job.

[superfurryhibby]

Loans have virtually no effect on profit, except for the interest charged on them. Nothing is charged on the soft loans. On the secured loan, we are charged at, I think, base plus 1.5%.

In the 2013 accounts, the soft loan advanced was £250k. The total soft loan £1.5m. So we didn't pay about 30k that we would have in a commercial situation.

It's helpful to hear info which is factual in relation to club finances, thanks for this. Do you know what the football team rent to the holding company for. I seem to remember some most likely misinformed stuff about the money being for the ticket office.?

[CropleyWasGod]

It's helpful to hear info which is factual in relation to club finances, thanks for this. Do you know what the football team rent to the holding company for. I seem to remember some most likely misinformed stuff about the money being for the ticket office.?

It is the ticket office. £24k pa.

The "misinformed" stuff was that we were paying rent for EM.

[Cropley10]

The other 28 STF companies he is a director of seem to perform OK. There again, he does not run any of those companies, just as he is no longer running our football club.

That's the new CEO's job.

That's right he's a director of 28 other companies and only Chairman of one.

So what does David Forsyth do at the Club?

Petrie is still there. Enough said.


Sent from a phone

[Peevemor]

Off course you merit an opinion.

But to sit where you are and say everything is rosy, then crack on, i have sat there for years home and away and i don't see it like that, you have to be there to understand what I'm saying, it has been bloody horrible to watch for a number of years, and that is not a dig, walking away from ER after games has been utterly depressing, away games just as bad mind you, Ross County at night at the end of last season springs to mind how bad it has been.

Have we turned a corner under LD GC and our manager Alan Stubbs( he very rarely gets mentioned so i think i will do so, he is the one making the changes after all, it's results that matter to us most and he is starting to get them) I wasn't the person who posted a statement on here about all the own goals they had made since arriving here, I wasn't the person who said they would communicate more with fans through message boards and other outlets but they don't hang about to answer any questions, so much for communicating with the fans, anyway have the team turned a corner, hard to say really, we still look very shaky at the back as was seen on Saturday (if you could see) the young keeper looked very nervous, hopefully Oxley is back fit for Saturday, sad to say that QOTS will be a big test for us on Saturday.

I really hope Leeann makes her target this year.

Me too.

For what it's worth, I started following Hibs regularly, home & away, in the old 1st division under Bertie Auld and only missed a handful of games for each of the following 25 or so seasons. So I know all about watching crap Hibs teams, although the past couple of years have been particularly painful.

[blackpoolhibs]

Me too.

For what it's worth, I started following Hibs regularly, home & away, in the old 1st division under Bertie Auld and only missed a handful of games for each of the following 25 or so seasons. So I know all about watching crap Hibs teams, although the past couple of years have been particularly painful.

And at Premiership prices it's no wonder folk are not happy.

[superfurryhibby]

It is the ticket office. £24k pa.

The "misinformed" stuff was that we were paying rent for EM.

Cheers for that.

I have this urge for more info. My memory tells me that the football club received around 5 million from the Lochend Butterfly, the rest going to the holding company? I also wondered if the accounts provide info on any tenders we buy into for servicing the needs of the stadium, including corporate catering etc.

For years. Going back to the Farmer takeover period I'veheard this and that (most in the public domain) about STF and how Hibs are run. This has usually come from guys I knew through playing football, people I trusted. Nothing illegal implied.

Deep down I want to believe none of it and would love the idea that STF could still make a gesture to the club and it's supporters that would ensure he remained a name associated with Hibs forever. We could even name a stand after him. Given his heritage and his faith, he could still come out with something to surprise us all. He's not just a hard nosed and successful business man!

[CropleyWasGod]

Cheers for that.

I have this urge for more info. My memory tells me that the football club received around 5 million from the Lochend Butterfly, the rest going to the holding company? I also wondered if the accounts provide info on any tenders we buy into for servicing the needs of the stadium, including corporate catering etc.

For years. Going back to the Farmer takeover period I'veheard this and that (most in the public domain) about STF and how Hibs are run. This has usually come from guys I knew through playing football, people I trusted. Nothing illegal implied.

Deep down I want to believe none of it and would love the idea that STF could still make a gesture to the club and it's supporters that would ensure he remained a name associated with Hibs forever. We could even name a stand after him. Given his heritage and his faith, he could still come out with something to surprise us all. He's not just a hard nosed and successful business man!

Cav's your man for the Butterfly story, or maybe that was the car park. Pretty sure it's in the vault.

The accounts don't go into detail on contracts. They would only do so if there was a connection between the contractor and one of the Board.

[Mikey]

Cav's your man for the Butterfly story, or maybe that was the car park. Pretty sure it's in the vault.

The accounts don't go into detail on contracts. They would only do so if there was a connection between the contractor and one of the Board.

:agree:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?135671-So-what-happened-to-the-money-from-the-car-park

[Beefster]

Just got an email from BuyHibs confirming that the DD I had set up has been cancelled and won't be reactivated until a deal to purchase the club has been done. They also confirmed they would notify me in advance of this happening.
Very professional.

If your thinking about pledging, get it done now. Let these guys know that you are there to be won over.

This is getting silly/desperate now after only two days. Setting up and immediately cancelling Direct Debits is being called 'very professional' and we're being asked to pledge before we're won over.

Lots of folk pledging when they remain to be convinced only to not actually follow through on the pledge will do more damage to BuyHibs and their credibility that folk not pledging in the first place.

[DaveF]

This is getting silly/desperate now after only two days. Setting up and immediately cancelling Direct Debits is being called 'very professional' and we're being asked to pledge before we're won over.

Lots of folk pledging when they remain to be convinced only to not actually follow through on the pledge will do more damage to BuyHibs and their credibility that folk not pledging in the first place.

Correct. There are a fair few who have rushed into this without any knowledge other than they want Petrie out.

I want change but let me know who the investors are, who the lender of last resort is for starters and then I might consider it.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree:

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?135671-So-what-happened-to-the-money-from-the-car-park

Cheers.

We didn't actually own the Butterfly, did we?

[Jonnyboy]

This is getting silly/desperate now after only two days. Setting up and immediately cancelling Direct Debits is being called 'very professional' and we're being asked to pledge before we're won over.

Lots of folk pledging when they remain to be convinced only to not actually follow through on the pledge will do more damage to BuyHibs and their credibility that folk not pledging in the first place.


Correct. There are a fair few who have rushed into this without any knowledge other than they want Petrie out.

I want change but let me know who the investors are, who the lender of last resort is for starters and then I might consider it.

:agree:

What surprises me is that two of the BuyHibs Directors are normally quite prolific posters on here and yet neither has been seen to post since the launch. Now I accept that they might be busy working on their own site but as there are many questions being posed on here, it might have helped had they thought to log on and address them. I think their absence is doing them no favours to be honest.

[Peevemor]

Cheers for that.

I have this urge for more info. My memory tells me that the football club received around 5 million from the Lochend Butterfly, the rest going to the holding company? I also wondered if the accounts provide info on any tenders we buy into for servicing the needs of the stadium, including corporate catering etc.

For years. Going back to the Farmer takeover period I'veheard this and that (most in the public domain) about STF and how Hibs are run. This has usually come from guys I knew through playing football, people I trusted. Nothing illegal implied.

Deep down I want to believe none of it and would love the idea that STF could still make a gesture to the club and it's supporters that would ensure he remained a name associated with Hibs forever. We could even name a stand after him. Given his heritage and his faith, he could still come out with something to surprise us all. He's not just a hard nosed and successful business man!

I think you're getting mixed up between the old car park and the Lochend butterfly.

Hibs never owned the butterfly and were shafted royally by the Council when it was put up for sale.

[greenginger]

I think you're getting mixed up between the old car park and the Lochend butterfly.

Hibs never owned the butterfly and were shafted royally by the Council when it was put up for sale.


Correct STF took his complaint as far getting a judicial revue, but still got nowhere. Establishment closed ranks.

Another bit of dirty dealing by our Council that should not be forgotten was the Council refusal to sell us the strip of land from the old school playground that was required to accomodate the new west stand. Hibs were forced to negotiate a deal with the purchaser of the school who the Council insisted on selling the whole site to.

Bit different to the dealings with the Yams who were allowed options on Council property in Mcleod Street for years while the Mega Stand was being designed and then dropped.

[jdships]

Correct. There are a fair few who have rushed into this without any knowledge other than they want Petrie out.

I want change but let me know who the investors are, who the lender of last resort is for starters and then I might consider it.



That for me is the whole thing in a nutshell :top marks

We have had enough " spin" to last a lifetime let's now have some FACTS , :rolleyes:

[blackpoolhibs]

Do all football clubs have a lender of last resort? I only ask as it seems a few folk don't think we can survive without one, and actually having STF has not stopped us making a right hash of the actual reason we have a FOOTBALL club, you know the football team?

[Cropley10]

Do all football clubs have a lender of last resort? I only ask as it seems a few folk don't think we can survive without one, and actually having STF has not stopped us making a right hash of the actual reason we have a FOOTBALL club, you know the football team?

In a word, no. It's also unrealistic to expect to keep one.


Sent from a phone

[BuyHibs]

Good Evening,

Thank you to those who have pledged and for your continued support.

We do understand that people have questions, We want to help all the fans gain real clarity around the proposal although at this early stage there may be some unanswered questions.

We would like to thank .net for setting up a Q&A thread for anyone wanting to ask us a question or a suggestion this is your club too. That's what community is all about.

Please accept our apologies for being quiet on the forum. It's been a manic few days but our aim is to speak to engage further with as many supporters as we possibly can.

BuyHibs

[Mibbes Aye]

Good Evening,

Thank you to those who have pledged and for your continued support.

We do understand that people have questions, We want to help all the fans gain real clarity around the proposal although at this early stage there may be some unanswered questions.

We would like to thank .net for setting up a Q&A thread for anyone wanting to ask us a question or a suggestion this is your club too. That's what community is all about.

Please accept our apologies for being quiet on the forum. It's been a manic few days but our aim is to speak to engage further with as many supporters as we possibly can.

BuyHibs

Just about every question that has been raised was completely foreseeable.

How and why did you not anticipate that and have some answers prepared?

[Kato]

Who said that?



Pardon?

[silverhibee]

Me too.

For what it's worth, I started following Hibs regularly, home & away, in the old 1st division under Bertie Auld and only missed a handful of games for each of the following 25 or so seasons. So I know all about watching crap Hibs teams, although the past couple of years have been particularly painful.

:aok:

I'm going to discount Mixu & Yogi, both got us top 6 finishes and Collins who brought us a cup win, but Calderwood Fenlon and Butcher have drove the fans away in huge numbers and add in that Petrie signed them has been utterly depressing stuff under these three and Petrie, it really has been grim stuff, but i hope we have Stubbs who has just got on with things quietly in the background and is starting to form a team that looks good on the eye most times, but we aren't fully there yet, we still don't look fully comfortable for the full 90 minutes yet though.

Peace dude

[jacomo]

Just about every question that has been raised was completely foreseeable.

How and why did you not anticipate that and have some answers prepared?

I think this is unfair because:

1. BuyHibs is not a corporate entity but a group of fans putting this together in their spare time.

2. They have clearly made the decision to go public as early as possible and then develop their proposals, rather than work everything out behind closed doors first. Pros and cons to each approach of course, but there is certainly merit to engaging fans as the plan is being developed.

You will form your own opinion on the merits of this approach, but let's all try to be constructive.

[Andy74]

I think this is unfair because:

1. BuyHibs is not a corporate entity but a group of fans putting this together in their spare time.

2. They have clearly made the decision to go public as early as possible and then develop their proposals, rather than work everything out behind closed doors first. Pros and cons to each approach of course, but there is certainly merit to engaging fans as the plan is being developed.

You will form your own opinion on the merits of this approach, but let's all try to be constructive.

It is fair. They may be a group of fans doing it in their spare time but that's rather the issue isn't it? There is criticism of the current owner and his team and this group are attempting to buy them out and so far as we can see just now, run the club. They had better be more equipped that than the current guys.

In terms of developing proposals, when I asked why now given the recent consultations and surveys had suggested it wasn't a priority the answer was that this had been worked on for months and that they felt they should push on with those plans.

Suggesting that they should be prepared with a thought out plan and answers to obvious questions is being constructive.

If it isn't ready then why no wait for the club's propsals, which we have been told for a while are being worked on?

[Weststandwanab]

I think this is unfair because:

1. BuyHibs is not a corporate entity but a group of fans putting this together in their spare time.

2. They have clearly made the decision to go public as early as possible and then develop their proposals, rather than work everything out behind closed doors first. Pros and cons to each approach of course, but there is certainly merit to engaging fans as the plan is being developed.

You will form your own opinion on the merits of this approach, but let's all try to be constructive.

1. Yes they are http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//companysearch?link=51

2. Spot on.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Good Evening,

Thank you to those who have pledged and for your continued support.

We do understand that people have questions, We want to help all the fans gain real clarity around the proposal although at this early stage there may be some unanswered questions.

We would like to thank .net for setting up a Q&A thread for anyone wanting to ask us a question or a suggestion this is your club too. That's what community is all about.

Please accept our apologies for being quiet on the forum. It's been a manic few days but our aim is to speak to engage further with as many supporters as we possibly can.

BuyHibs

This post should read as a warning to all Hibs fans.

No timelines, no answers, no know investors, no names as to the "experts" they have engaged with, no funding guarentees, who is paying the pre-sales cost's of buying the club (at least £250k I would estimate) - in fact nothing.

[DarlingtonHibee]

:agree:

What surprises me is that two of the BuyHibs Directors are normally quite prolific posters on here and yet neither has been seen to post since the launch. Now I accept that they might be busy working on their own site but as there are many questions being posed on here, it might have helped had they thought to log on and address them. I think their absence is doing them no favours to be honest.

Jonnyboy

Who are the directors of BuyHibs ?

[Weststandwanab]

Jonnyboy

Who are the directors of BuyHibs ?

So far ......

[DarlingtonHibee]

So far ......

Thanks for that.

Outside Sir Pat, can anyone tell what expirence the other four have in running a business with a multi million pound turnover, and knowledge of running a proffessional football club ?

[blackpoolhibs]

Thanks for that.

Outside Sir Pat, can anyone tell what expirence the other four have in running a business with a multi million pound turnover, and knowledge of running a proffessional football club ?

Can you tell me how anyone gets experience in owning a football club?

[Andy74]

Thanks for that.

Outside Sir Pat, can anyone tell what expirence the other four have in running a business with a multi million pound turnover, and knowledge of running a proffessional football club ?

There are differences in the list of Directors and those they have on their website as the 'team'.

The directors as listed at cos house:

Brian Penman - works in procurement for a bank
Andrew Sibley - regional sales for a carpet and sports surface company
Pat Stanton - Pat Stanton
Ashley Thorne - training and development manager
Neil Wheelan - works for a financial consultant - no idea of role, not listed on their Edinburgh website

[DarlingtonHibee]

There are differences in the list of Directors and those they have on their website as the 'team'.

The directors as listed at cos house:

Brian Penman - works in procurement for a bank
Andrew Sibley - regional sales for a carpet and sports surface company
Pat Stanton - Pat Stanton
Ashley Thorne - training and development manager
Neil Wheelan - works for a financial consultant - no idea of role, not listed on their Edinburgh website

Thanks Andy74 - says it all....

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for that.

Outside Sir Pat, can anyone tell what expirence the other four have in running a business with a multi million pound turnover, and knowledge of running a proffessional football club ?

David Low had experience of running a football club. How did you receive his bid?

[DarlingtonHibee]

David Low had experience of running a football club. How did you receive his bid?

About as far as I could throw him.

[Weststandwanab]

Thanks Andy74 - says it all....

Could you elaborate on that comment please ?

Do you know these people ?

[blackpoolhibs]

About as far as I could throw him.

STF had no experience in running a football club, thats why he put Rod Petrie in charge.

Hows that gone?

[Ozyhibby]

About as far as I could throw him.

Exactly.

[silverhibee]

STF had no experience in running a football club, thats why he put Rod Petrie in charge.

Hows that gone?

Who also had no experience of running a football club.

Not very well.

[blackpoolhibs]

Who also had no experience of running a football club.

Not very well.

:agree:

[DarlingtonHibee]

Could you elaborate on that comment please ?

Do you know these people ?

Don't know them - sure they are good Hibs fans, but don't appear to have the qualifications on any front to take ownership of Hibs.

[DarlingtonHibee]

STF had no experience in running a football club, thats why he put Rod Petrie in charge.

Hows that gone?

BH - STF saved the club. RP has done a great deal for the club in terms of infrastructure - I think he has worked for zero in the last few years, however LD has been brought in -we should all be supporting her and AS - AND FOCUS ON THE TEAM.

[blackpoolhibs]

Don't know them - sure they are good Hibs fans, but don't appear to have the qualifications on any front to take ownership of Hibs.

Rod Petrie owns 10% of the club, ok 10% of the holding company. What qualifications does he possess that entitles him to do this?

[blackpoolhibs]

BH - STF saved the club. RP has done a great deal for the club in terms of infrastructure - I think he has worked for zero in the last few years, however LD has been brought in -we should all be supporting her and AS - AND FOCUS ON THE TEAM.

Who has paid for this infrastructure DH?

[FranckSuzy]

Jonnyboy

Who are the directors of BuyHibs ?

I was just wondering why Dawn Robertson and Dougie Roxburgh are named as Directors on the BuyHibs website (http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/) but not at Companies House?

[DarlingtonHibee]

Rod Petrie owns 10% of the club, ok 10% of the holding company. What qualifications does he possess that entitles him to do this?

Ask STF- he owns the club, and trust's him to ensure we live within our means - which STF stated on day one.

[Ozyhibby]

BH - STF saved the club. RP has done a great deal for the club in terms of infrastructure - I think he has worked for zero in the last few years, however LD has been brought in -we should all be supporting her and AS - AND FOCUS ON THE TEAM.

Been hearing that for years. How's it working for us?

[Baldy Foghorn]

I was just wondering why Dawn Robertson and Dougie Roxburgh are named as Directors on the BuyHibs website (http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/) but not at Companies House?

Confusing eh? The two are in the meet the team section on buyhibs website.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Who has paid for this infrastructure DH?

1.Transfer of players.

2.Match Day / Corporate/ sponsorship income etc.

3.Loans, guaranteed by STF.

[blackpoolhibs]

Ask STF- he owns the club, and trust's him to ensure we live within our means - which STF stated on day one.

You asked just what qualifications anyone involved with this buyhibs bid had, yet i now have to ask STF instead of you what qualifications Petrie has?

[blackpoolhibs]

1.Transfer of players.

2.Match Day / Corporate/ sponsorship income etc.

3.Loans, guaranteed by STF.

You could have saved yourself typing all that and just said the fans.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Confusing eh? The two are in the meet the team section on buyhibs website.

BF - you got the website link - thanks.

[Beefster]

You asked just what qualifications anyone involved with this buyhibs bid had, yet i now have to ask STF instead of you what qualifications Petrie has?

I'm not his greatest fan but Rodders, aside from being an accountant, had track record pre-Hibs far beyond anything that I've read of BuyHibs to date.

[DarlingtonHibee]

You could have saved yourself typing all that and just said the fans.

BH - think you'll find that the transfers played a significant role in turnover /profit which allowed for infrastructure development, as well as the fans- check the accounts.

[FranckSuzy]

BF - you got the website link - thanks.

See post #704 :aok:

[Golden Bear]

I was just wondering why Dawn Robertson and Dougie Roxburgh are named as Directors on the BuyHibs website (http://www.buyhibs.org/about-buy-hibs/meet-the-team/) but not at Companies House?

I think you can have a different classifiction of "Directors" within the same Company.

I'm not 100% sure though.

[FranckSuzy]

Confusing eh? The two are in the meet the team section on buyhibs website.

:agree: and named as "directors" :confused:

[FranckSuzy]

I think you can have a different classifiction of "Directors" within the same Company.

I'm not 100% sure though.

:aok:

[DarlingtonHibee]

See post #704 :aok:

Cheers, just seen that.

I think fans need to look at the CV's on the link, then go to the Hibs website and do the same at current director level - decide from there.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm not his greatest fan but Rodders, aside from being an accountant, had track record pre-Hibs far beyond anything that I've read of BuyHibs to date.

Me neither, but what i'm saying is there's no guarantee what kind of person you will get, even if they have multi millions in the bank?

And this new myth thats appearing about needing a lender of last resort is becoming laughable, especially when the owner and the guy running the place for him have been running it so badly.

I have no idea if these new folk will even get anywhere near purchasing Hibs, but some folk seem so scared of change its frightening.

[Baldy Foghorn]

BF - you got the website link - thanks.

www.buyhibs.org

[Bad Martini]

Given time this one will eclipse the calendar thread, the implosion of the huns and yams and the return of Riordan threads :greengrin

A few points.

1) BH directors and "team" arent necessarily the same thing?
2) The above doesn't mean anything underhand/dodgy/sus etc

HOWEVER,

1) BH lack of credible funding IS a concern
2) And no detailed Q&A, predicated with questions we all have is a concern

For me, it's honourable but way to scary to contemplate without some cast iron funding.

And, someone who is absolutely MINTED and to whom a few hundred/thousand/tens of thousands to bail us out if/when the **** hitteth the fan, is an option. We have that right now.

You want examples in the real world...just head over and gloat/laugh like ****/split yer sides and the perilous position of the huns :aok::greengrin

If we need to go it alone and "buy out" our owner, we need enough funds to do that AND (surely) some funds for a rainy day.

PS I reckon we all accept nobody goes to school/college/uni to learn how to run a fitba team. However, the ability to coherently run some form of high profile organisation, in the public eye and with a number of inherent risks to long term survival on a regular basis, is a definite requirement on my shopping list for our new investors. Failing that, Abramovich will do :greengrin

[DarlingtonHibee]

Me neither, but what i'm saying is there's no guarantee what kind of person you will get, even if they have multi millions in the bank?

And this new myth thats appearing about needing a lender of last resort is becoming laughable, especially when the owner and the guy running the place for him have been running it so badly.

I have no idea if these new folk will even get anywhere near purchasing Hibs, but some folk seem so scared of change its frightening.

This is from the website _ Our ownership model also includes space for additional investors. We don’t have investors in place but we will be launching discussions with various parties immediately.

[blackpoolhibs]

BH - think you'll find that the transfers played a significant role in turnover /profit which allowed for infrastructure development, as well as the fans- check the accounts.

Of course they did, but any loans we have are repaid by the fans or indeed any other sales and the likes, just like any other football club.

To suggest Petrie has done anything out the ordinary here is daft.

[Baldy Foghorn]

A couple of buyhibs people holding a Q&A in Hibs Club this Wednesday 18.45

[Andy74]

Of course they did, but any loans we have are repaid by the fans or indeed any other sales and the likes, just like any other football club.

To suggest Petrie has done anything out the ordinary here is daft.

Come on now. We had to make some very hard decisions on finance. Largely long before others did.

We have had some bad years on the park but let's not pretend that there hasn't been significant achievements in safeguarding the club and setting it up for the future.

[superfurryhibby]

BH - STF saved the club. RP has done a great deal for the club in terms of infrastructure - I think he has worked for zero in the last few years, however LD has been brought in -we should all be supporting her and AS - AND FOCUS ON THE TEAM.

Can we try and leave the STF saved Hibs stuff to one side? That was 25 years ago and it is not everyone's view that he was the only option at the time. We have moved on from that episode and most fans accept that his intervention back then was worthy, and that we now need to start planning for the future, post STF. Is there any reason why HIbs fans can't ask questions about the future direction of the club and still focus on the team?

[Kato]

BH - STF saved the club. RP has done a great deal for the club in terms of infrastructure - I think he has worked for zero in the last few years, however LD has been brought in -we should all be supporting her and AS - AND FOCUS ON THE TEAM.

I don't trust your qualifications on who should or shouldn't own Hibs.

[blackpoolhibs]

Come on now. We had to make some very hard decisions on finance. Largely long before others did.

We have had some bad years on the park but let's not pretend that there hasn't been significant achievements in safeguarding the club and setting it up for the future.

How do other clubs manage to exist without new stadiums and training grounds Andy?

[DarlingtonHibee]

I don't trust your qualifications on who should or shouldn't own Hibs.

That's no problem, just giving me opinion.

[Andy74]

How do other clubs manage to exist without new stadiums and training grounds Andy?

We've probably yet to fully find out. We really haven't been using ours to the max by the looks of things but we have them, that's not something we need to do again.

Anyhow, its this group that are making a move now and asking for my money so I think its fair enough to figure out who they are and what they intend to bring.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Can we try and leave the STF saved Hibs stuff to one side? That was 25 years ago and it is not everyone's view that he was the only option at the time. We have moved on from that episode and most fans accept that his intervention back then was worthy, and that we now need to start planning for the future, post STF. Is there any reason why HIbs fans can't ask questions about the future direction of the club and still focus on the team?

1.Who were the other options - please don't say Brian Kennedy.

2.Hibs have reviewed various bids based on the long term security of the club, and IIRC it was independent consultants that reviewed Lowes bid - outcome - no value to Hibs.

3.We are all keen to know the future of the club - but it has to be a solid business decision . not emotion - been there Duff and Gray, Rowlands etc...

[Kato]

Anyhow, its this group that are making a move now and asking for my money so I think its fair enough to figure out who they are and what they intend to bring.

I think it's very early days for BuyHibs, remember those twats on the other side of town were running FoH long before they made any kind of move and those who initiated the "movement" weren't really involved in the latter stages. Given that BuyHibs are still open to investors coming forward the end game could well involve people who as yet are not known to the fans. Baby steps still.

[blackpoolhibs]

We've probably yet to fully find out. We really haven't been using ours to the max by the looks of things but we have them, that's not something we need to do again.

Anyhow, its this group that are making a move now and asking for my money so I think its fair enough to figure out who they are and what they intend to bring.

I'm actually in agreement with a lot of what you say Andy, where we disagree is how well STF and Petrie have done. Its all been done to the detriment of the team.

And thats the main reason we go to the games, and also the main reason the ground is less than half full. I have no idea about any of these people involved in this buyout, maybe we just need a little patience?

[superfurryhibby]

Come on now. We had to make some very hard decisions on finance. Largely long before others did.

We have had some bad years on the park but let's not pretend that there hasn't been significant achievements in safeguarding the club and setting it up for the future.

What are these achievements and safeguards that set the club up for the future Andy? It would be nice if our owner could shed some light on their own thoughts on the matter. Given that the community is the heart and soul of any football club, wouldn't make sense for STF to provide some clarity?

Anyway, I always thought the club was for sale to anyone with the requisite finances, allowing for a due dilligence etc. Doesn't that mean the future is actually completely uncertain?

I still think STF has a few tricks up his sleeve and that he may come out with something that surprises us all. I have no idea as to his personal wealth, but I guess it must be very substantial. I've said before that he could cement his place in our club's history forever by a benevolent gesture, perhaps putting the ground ownership into a community owned trust or something similar. We already know that he is man of strong belief and that he is very committed to supporting his faith community, wouldn't it be a marvellous thing if he were to extend that magnanimity to Hibernian and ensure that his name is forever associated the club. His ancestors, past and future, would be very proud of him.

[DaveF]

Do all football clubs have a lender of last resort? I only ask as it seems a few folk don't think we can survive without one, and actually having STF has not stopped us making a right hash of the actual reason we have a FOOTBALL club, you know the football team?

I wouldn't think so, but it's in the BuyHibs Q&A document so is a pertinent question don't you think?

[ahibby]

We've probably yet to fully find out. We really haven't been using ours to the max by the looks of things but we have them, that's not something we need to do again.

Anyhow, its this group that are making a move now and asking for my money so I think its fair enough to figure out who they are and what they intend to bring.

I find it strange that this has come about when we are playing decent football and are on a bit of a run. I would have more likely bought in to it during the Yogi, Calderwood, Fenlon days. I am satisfied to see how this pans out with the changes the club has made and the appointment of AS. It's strange perhaps that two or three years ago I might have got involved but now I'm happy to sit back and listen but know deep down that I'm unlikely at this point to support any kind of takeover. There might be an argument that you don't wait for a crisis before you do something/make a change but for me the crisis has come and gone and we are bouncing back. It's said that necessity is the mother of invention and I don't see the necessity at this point. Our neighbours current plan was borne out of necessity and seems to be a reasonable model but costs their supporters more than having an owner like STF.

[blackpoolhibs]

I wouldn't think so, but it's in the BuyHibs Q&A document so is a pertinent question don't you think?


Its a new one on me, i'd just prefer it if we had an owner who ran the club right and had it competing roughly compared to other clubs of a similar size.

Throwing money in because the club is struggling is shutting the door way after the horse has bolted.

[superfurryhibby]

1.Who were the other options - please don't say Brian Kennedy.

2.Hibs have reviewed various bids based on the long term security of the club, and IIRC it was independent consultants that reviewed Lowes bid - outcome - no value to Hibs.

3.We are all keen to know the future of the club - but it has to be a solid business decision . not emotion - been there Duff and Gray, Rowlands etc...

It is ancient history now DH but STF was the bank's preferred bidder. Given the extent of the debt and the range of assets attached to the football team and it's associated companies, I think there would have been many other folk interested. My understanding was that STF was only required to invest a couple hundred thousand upfront and guarantee the rest of the debt. I do recall Kenny Waugh was very keen to get involved again. Brian Kennedy wasn't a name mentioned at the time.

I have no idea as to the value of David Low's offer. Ultimately it never met the criteria for ownership placed on the club by STF and Petrie.

I agree, the financial element is crucial. Taking the current situation into account, how do we factor in our lowly league status, failing crowds and lack of standing in the game? Does this mean the asset is worth, given that we are a declining business? In most settings such failure would significantly reduced the value of any company?

[ahibby]

What are these achievements and safeguards that set the club up for the future Andy? It would be nice if our owner could shed some light on their own thoughts on the matter. Given that the community is the heart and soul of any football club, wouldn't make sense for STF to provide some clarity?

Anyway, I always thought the club was for sale to anyone with the requisite finances, allowing for a due dilligence etc. Doesn't that mean the future is actually completely uncertain?

I still think STF has a few tricks up his sleeve and that he may come out with something that surprises us all. I have no idea as to his personal wealth, but I guess it must be very substantial. I've said before that he could cement his place in our club's history forever by a benevolent gesture, perhaps putting the ground ownership into a community owned trust or something similar. We already know that he is man of strong belief and that he is very committed to supporting his faith community, wouldn't it be a marvellous thing if he were to extend that magnanimity to Hibernian and ensure that his name is forever associated the Farmer name. His ancestors, past and future, would be very proud of him.

I have no doubt that under STF things will probably pan out in the way you see as being a panacea. He does care very much about the community and Hibernian's place in the community. He also believes that the football side of things should be driven by fans as much as possible but with sensible leadership (I'm not saying that fans are not sensible but we can all be a bit, well wrong a lot). My feelings on the matter of the board listening is that's as far as this should go, I would be very concerned if the board handed things over to a movement that doesn't have the backing of the vast majority of fans and if the polls on this board are anything to go by that isn't the case.

[Stewboy]

I find it strange that this has come about when we are playing decent football and are on a bit of a run. I would have more likely bought in to it during the Yogi, Calderwood, Fenlon days. I am satisfied to see how this pans out with the changes the club has made and the appointment of AS. It's strange perhaps that two or three years ago I might have got involved but now I'm happy to sit back and listen but know deep down that I'm unlikely at this point to support any kind of takeover. There might be an argument that you don't wait for a crisis before you do something/make a change but for me the crisis has come and gone and we are bouncing back. It's said that necessity is the mother of invention and I don't see the necessity at this point. Our neighbours current plan was borne out of necessity and seems to be a reasonable model but costs their supporters more than having an owner like STF.

A decent run in the 2nd tier.

[superfurryhibby]

I have no doubt that under STF things will probably pan out in the way you see as being a panacea. He does care very much about the community and Hibernian's place in the community. He also believes that the football side of things should be driven by fans as much as possible but with sensible leadership (I'm not saying that fans are not sensible but we can all be a bit, well wrong a lot). My feelings on the matter of the board listening is that's as far as this should go, I would be very concerned if the board handed things over to a movement that doesn't have the backing of the vast majority of fans and if the polls on this board are anything to go by that isn't the case.

I'm not sure what I see as a panacea? I remain unconvinced by any alternative to STF, at the present time, yet I feel change is needed. Buy Hibs have thrown their hat in the ring, they have involvement from the greatest living Hibee and it's good for us all that there are folk who care about our club enough to want to change the decline we have been in for the last five or six years. Whether they have the means and capacity to effect change remains to be seen.

I don't know STF whatsoever, yet I am aware of some aspects of his life that say he is more than a dynamic and succesful business man. THis leads me into thinking that he is capable of springing a surprise on us all.

[The Falcon]

Who has paid for this infrastructure DH?

I recall reading somewhere that STF paid for the North and South stands. The East, West and EM from a mixture of loans and good fortune through player sales and the car park. Since season tickets (we are told) are entirely for the playing squad I would guess the repayments are met through walk-up's, retail profits from merchandise sales and contracts,visiting fans and sponsorship deals.

Did Ms Dempster have any experience of running a football club prior to Motherwell?

[WHUHibs]

Thanks Andy74 - says it all....

Darlington Hibby/Andy74 I'm not going to debate my credentials on here but I would like to put the story straight on my professional history and look at LinkedIn which is different from what you are portraying behind a keyboard.

I am happy to talk face to face or on the phone with any fan to discuss the proposal.

Regards

Andrew Sibley

[schinkenotto]

Can we try and leave the STF saved Hibs stuff to one side? That was 25 years ago and it is not everyone's view that he was the only option at the time. We have moved on from that episode and most fans accept that his intervention back then was worthy, and that we now need to start planning for the future, post STF. Is there any reason why HIbs fans can't ask questions about the future direction of the club and still focus on the team?
Having been professionally involved in the Mercer shambles,I can assure you that STF was definitely the only option with any integrity and credibility.If he had not been persuaded(and he did have to be persuaded) to step forward,I very much doubt if Hbs would still exist in any meaningful form.

[Andy74]

Darlington Hibby/Andy74 I'm not going to debate my credentials on here but I would like to put the story straight on my professional history and look at LinkedIn which is different from what you are portraying behind a keyboard.

I am happy to talk face to face or on the phone with any fan to discuss the proposal.

Regards

Andrew Sibley

Andrew, thanks for posting a reply.

Sir Tom, Rod, Leeann, Alan Stubbs, 19 year old goalkeepers - they all have to accept their credentials being debated I'm afraid.

If I was part of a group trying to arrange a buy out of a football club with a passionate support, or if I was putting myself up for one of the board places, I'd fully accept and expect the same.

If you'd like to set any record straight please do - I think I had suggested that your experience was in sales in carpet and sports surfaces. From LinkedIn that's still the impression I get albeit you have responsibilites for developing into new markets. The recommendations on your page largely refer to you as being a driven and engaged results drive sales manager.

For what its worth I would think that's good commerical experience that is pretty relevant - I didn't make any judgement when listing what appeared to be the backgrounds of each of the Directors.

I'm not sure having private debates with people on the proposals is a sound way to go though. There are so many questions and uncertanties about this and the group should be prepared to have the debate.

[DarlingtonHibee]

Darlington Hibby/Andy74 I'm not going to debate my credentials on here but I would like to put the story straight on my professional history and look at LinkedIn which is different from what you are portraying behind a keyboard.

I am happy to talk face to face or on the phone with any fan to discuss the proposal.

Regards

Andrew Sibley

Andrew

The whole Hibs family needs to know the proposal.

When is that likley ?

[IWasThere2016]

blackpoolhibs = BH = Buy Hibs :hmmm: :wink: :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Am I the first to use the term "underwhelmed" on this thread?

[ahibby]

A decent run in the 2nd tier.

One that has seen us draw against 2nd top team in the Premiership and beating another SPL team on their home ground. I'm satisfied that if we weren't in the 2nd tier, and changing to new owners won't change that (we would still be in the 2nd tier), then we would be a decent top tier team going by our recent performances.

[ahibby]

I'm not sure what I see as a panacea? I remain unconvinced by any alternative to STF, at the present time, yet I feel change is needed. Buy Hibs have thrown their hat in the ring, they have involvement from the greatest living Hibee and it's good for us all that there are folk who care about our club enough to want to change the decline we have been in for the last five or six years. Whether they have the means and capacity to effect change remains to be seen.

I don't know STF whatsoever, yet I am aware of some aspects of his life that say he is more than a dynamic and succesful business man. THis leads me into thinking that he is capable of springing a surprise on us all.

With reference to a panacea, I took your comments about a legacy from STF being a bit of magic to boost the club, in whatever form that legacy comes, that's all.