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View Full Version : 1975, 'The experimental offside line'.



Hibernia&Alba
04-11-2014, 08:39 PM
Celtic V Hibs, 1975. What was the experimental offside line that's referred to? I've never heard of it before. The edge of the box is painted across to the side of the pitch. I just came across it whilst watching some old highlights.


Two classic football kits here.


http://youtu.be/eTcS_VldPT0

Kojock
04-11-2014, 08:43 PM
It was tried in the Drybough Cup. Basically the only part of the pitch you could be offside was within 18 yards from goal instead of the half way line.

Onceinawhile
04-11-2014, 08:44 PM
Celtic V Hibs, 1975. What was the experimental offside line that's referred to? I've never heard of it before. The edge of the box is painted across to the side of the pitch. I just came across it whilst watching some old highlights.


Two classic football kits here.


http://youtu.be/eTcS_VldPT0

You either couldn't be offside if you were past that line, or that's where offside started. One of the two.

Hibernia&Alba
04-11-2014, 08:53 PM
It was tried in the Drybough Cup. Basically the only part of the pitch you could be offside was within 18 yards from goal instead of the half way line.

Cheers for that. Do you know whether it made much of a difference?

linlithgowhibbie
04-11-2014, 09:09 PM
A few more longer balls, and a few less offside decisions!!!

:gwa:

nonshinyfinish
04-11-2014, 09:11 PM
A few more longer balls, and a few less offside decisions!!!

:gwa:

And Tam McCourt got an extra pound a week to do the lines. It was a lot of money back then.

Ray_
04-11-2014, 09:48 PM
Cheers for that. Do you know whether it made much of a difference?


We beat the then Cup Winners Cup holders Rangers 3-0 at ER in the semi & the final [1972] saw Hibs and Celtic sharing 8 goals in 120 minutes, with Hibs getting 5 of them. But then Hibs Celtic cup finals rained goals in around that time and it was the only one of four occasions when we hit the jackpot in a cup final goals bonanza.

ShadesLongThrow
04-11-2014, 09:52 PM
My memory of that rule change was watching Joe Harper spend the whole match standing on that line waiting for a long ball and to be fair, I seem to remember he scored quite a few because of it.

Jonnyboy
04-11-2014, 09:53 PM
That Hibs strip is a thing of absolute beauty

Ringothedog
04-11-2014, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;4216920]Celtic V Hibs, 1975. What was the experimental offside line that's referred to? I've never heard of it before. The edge of the box is painted across to the side of the pitch. I just came across it whilst watching some old highlights.


Two classic football kits here.


http://youtu.be/eTcS_VldPT0[/QUOTE

It certainly was not 1975, the video shown has to be 1972 when we beat them 5-3 as the following year we beat them 1-0

Hibernia&Alba
04-11-2014, 10:29 PM
[QUOTE=Hibernia&Alba;4216920]Celtic V Hibs, 1975. What was the experimental offside line that's referred to? I've never heard of it before. The edge of the box is painted across to the side of the pitch. I just came across it whilst watching some old highlights.


Two classic football kits here.


http://youtu.be/eTcS_VldPT0[/QUOTE

It certainly was not 1975, the video shown has to be 1972 when we beat them 5-3 as the following year we beat them 1-0

Cheers for that, eddie, it's before my time. First time I'd seen this footage.

brog
04-11-2014, 10:37 PM
I remember Jimmy Johnstone scoring 2 against us in the 1972 final which would have been offside in normal circumstances. I'm pretty sure rule was still in operation in 1973 when we won again but I can't remember 1974 at all for some reason!

Ray_
05-11-2014, 12:25 AM
I remember Jimmy Johnstone scoring 2 against us in the 1972 final which would have been offside in normal circumstances. I'm pretty sure rule was still in operation in 1973 when we won again but I can't remember 1974 at all for some reason!

1974 would have been the League Cup, 6-3 game.

Kaiser1962
05-11-2014, 02:27 AM
I remember Jimmy Johnstone scoring 2 against us in the 1972 final which would have been offside in normal circumstances. I'm pretty sure rule was still in operation in 1973 when we won again but I can't remember 1974 at all for some reason!

Johnstone scored 2 in 5 minutes in the second half of the 1972 Drybrough Cup Final after Hibs had been 3-0 up. Game went to extra time and we won 5-3. As Ray says they were two very good teams with some high scoring finals, Celtic had beaten us in the SC Final 6-1 just 13 weeks, or two competitive games, earlier.

brog
05-11-2014, 10:12 AM
1974 would have been the League Cup, 6-3 game.

I've tried to blot that one out Ray but I really meant the 1974 Drybrough Cup. We lost 3-2 to oldco at ER but I can't remember a thing about the game or whether experimental offside rule still applied. I may have been on hols as games were played in July.

HH81
05-11-2014, 10:19 AM
I think we should try this again in one of the cups to see how it works?

StevieT
05-11-2014, 11:08 AM
From what I can remember;


The penalty area was extended across to each sideline
You could not be offside between the two extended lines
Teams played one attacker who 'patrolled' the edge of the penalty area thus forcing the defending team to play deep defenders
The game was therefore played mainly between the two penalty area so midfiled players must have been as fit as.....
We won the cup twice - 5-3 aet and 1-0 both against Celtc
To the best of my knowledge it was only played one other time, Aberdeen being the winners against Celtc (I could be wrong here)

jdships
05-11-2014, 11:29 AM
Remember speaking to Arthur Duncan at the time and he was really up for it.
With his pace he was perfectly suited to the " rule"
From memory I think I am right in saying there were very mixed opinions re the set up and there was little " protest" when it was abandoned

:flag:

brog
05-11-2014, 11:58 AM
1974 would have been the League Cup, 6-3 game.

I hadn't looked at the video Ray. You're quite correct, that's the 1974 LC final. I had completely forgotten that was also played under the experimental rules!

Stevie Reid
05-11-2014, 02:18 PM
The offside line in Subbuteo was better positioned.

Keith_M
05-11-2014, 02:36 PM
The offside line in Subbuteo was better positioned.


Could we fit all 22 players and the Ref on a Subbuteo pitch though?


:wink:

Stevie Reid
05-11-2014, 02:53 PM
Could we fit all 22 players and the Ref on a Subbuteo pitch though?


:wink:

13742

Franck Stanton
05-11-2014, 03:43 PM
From what I can remember;


The penalty area was extended across to each sideline
You could not be offside between the two extended lines
Teams played one attacker who 'patrolled' the edge of the penalty area thus forcing the defending team to play deep defenders
The game was therefore played mainly between the two penalty area so midfiled players must have been as fit as.....
We won the cup twice - 5-3 aet and 1-0 both against Celtc
To the best of my knowledge it was only played one other time, Aberdeen being the winners against Celtc (I could be wrong here)




Played for one more year and Rangers won it so Dryburgh let them keep the Cup.

Kato
05-11-2014, 04:59 PM
From what I can remember;
The penalty area was extended across to each sideline


The penalty area was as is, hence those lines being as normal. The 18 yard line was extended to the touchline and you could only be offside between there and the byeline.


I hadn't looked at the video Ray. You're quite correct, that's the 1974 LC final. I had completely forgotten that was also played under the experimental rules!

You're right, brog. MacArthur and Bremner didn't play in the 5-3 Drybrough Cup game but are playing in the above match. There's a little bit on wiki regarding this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offside_(association_football)#History


During the 1973–74 and 1974–75 seasons, an experimental version of the offside rule was operated in the Scottish League Cup and Drybrough Cup competitions.[10] The concept was that offside should only apply in the last 18 yards of play (i.e. inside or beside the penalty area).[10] To signify this, the horizontal line of the penalty area was extended to the touchlines.[10] FIFA President Sir Stanley Rous attended the 1973 Scottish League Cup Final, which was played using these rules.[10] The manager of one of the teams involved, Celtic manager Jock Stein, complained that it was unfair to expect teams to play under one set of rules in one game and then a different set a few days before or later.[10] The experiment was quietly dropped after the 1974–75 season, as no proposal for a further experiment or rule change was submitted for the Scottish Football Association board to consider.[10]



My memory of that rule change was watching Joe Harper spend the whole match standing on that line waiting for a long ball and to be fair, I seem to remember he scored quite a few because of it.

I think we should try this again in one of the cups to see how it works?

I seem to remember that the expremiment drew initial praise then was criticized as time went on. It's true that there plenty of goals and attackers could roam around outside the offside area but then managers started planking centre halfs to man mark those attackers in the same. Complaints were in cut out certain aspects of midfield play and games became too predictable.

Pretty Boy
05-11-2014, 05:19 PM
That Hibs strip is a thing of absolute beauty

Spot on.

Perfect shade of green, perfect style.

PeeJay
05-11-2014, 05:22 PM
I remember the rule, didn't like it then, wouldn't like it now -anyone know if it was used anywhere else?

ancient hibee
05-11-2014, 05:41 PM
My memory of that rule change was watching Joe Harper spend the whole match standing on that line waiting for a long ball and to be fair, I seem to remember he scored quite a few because of it.

I feel your memory may be playing tricks:greengrin

snooky
05-11-2014, 06:45 PM
Aye, I remember it. The midfield players were totally knacked.
The forwards and defenders never moved off the 18 yard line and the midders ran their guts out up and down the park for 90 mins.
Nice idea but didny work.

eastterrace
05-11-2014, 07:52 PM
Aye, I remember it. The midfield players were totally knacked.
The forwards and defenders never moved off the 18 yard line and the midders ran their guts out up and down the park for 90 mins.
Nice idea but didny work.

well it worked for us as we won two cup finals and reached the league cup final using it

Ray_
05-11-2014, 09:08 PM
Aye, I remember it. The midfield players were totally knacked.
The forwards and defenders never moved off the 18 yard line and the midders ran their guts out up and down the park for 90 mins.
Nice idea but didny work.

Scoring eight goals in four days against Rantic, for me it worked very well. :greengrin

Great memories, Colin Stein slidding in against Onion, he draws the ball back and Stein goes hurtling in to the dirt track & the 5-3 against Celtic was purely magical, especially so soon after the 6-1 game.

For those not around back then and there'll be many :greengrin The competition was for the top scoring teams in the two leagues that existed at the time, four teams from the first and four second division. In the first round the top division teams played those from the second & Hibs in the true spirit of the competition scored 4 in the first game against Montrose I think it was, followed that up by three against Rangers.

We were 3-0 up in the final when we lost our first goal in the competition and Celtic brought it back to 3-3. This was after crowd trouble in the Celtic end of the pitch, stopped play, with Hibs 3-0 up and after Celtic getting back on terms the match went in to extra time, Jimmy O'Rourke scored a screamer and Arthur Duncan scored another great goal in the final minute of extra time and that was that.

The next morning one of the "Sunday's" headline stated "magnificient Hibs" and the reporter followed by saying that he didn't think there was a team anywhere in the world, who could score five against the Scottish champions".

Great reading for a then sixteen year old, although the hack must have forgotten that under a year earlier, the Jags had scored four against the same Celtic by half time, in the 71 League Cup Final :greengrin Joking apart, that Celtic team were by far the best I've ever seen in Scotland & it says bundles about the TT's that they could match them on occasions.

ancient hibee
05-11-2014, 10:44 PM
Jimmy O'Rourke came on as sub as ET was having his strange flirtation with Hazel or someone of that ilk.

Green Man
05-11-2014, 11:04 PM
The offside line in Subbuteo was better positioned.

That wasn't the offside line though, in Subbuteo you couldn't score from behind the line. However a shot from behind the line which deflected off a defender was valid so it was open to abuse by some players :greengrin

Ray_
06-11-2014, 12:11 AM
Jimmy O'Rourke came on as sub as ET was having his strange flirtation with Hazel or someone of that ilk.

Johnny Hamilton.

eezyrider
06-11-2014, 05:04 PM
There's more about it on the STV Sport web site:

How the Scottish FA tried to revolutionise the offside law

Discussion rages eternally over how football could be changed for the better. Should we introduce goal line technology? Should we award a goal when a player has handled on the line? Should we allow a player to celebrate freely without fear of picking up a yellow card?

Simplifying the offside rule is another favourite, especially when it comes to inactive players and second phases. Yet little is said or known about the experimental cup final in Scotland which could have led to a revolution in the game through changes to the offside law.

The Scottish Football Association were leading the field in trying to completely overhaul how the rule worked. Their first trial saw a league match between Hearts and Kilmarnock go the first 45 minutes with no offside law in effect. The Edinburgh club won 8-2.

Another SFA-proposed experiment then followed in the League Cup and Drybrough Cup matches of 1973, which saw the penalty area line extended to join up with the touchlines, creating a solid line across the pitch 18 yards from each goal.

The offside law then only applied when a player was beyond the new penalty area line. The League Cup final of that year, between Dundee and Celtic, was the eventual platform for a final decision on whether the idea was viable.

The premise was simple. "I think it was to encourage more attacking play inside the opposition’s half," explained Tommy Gemmell, who played in defence for Dundee in the final. "But of course you could still be caught offside inside the box if you like and I think that was the idea, to try and keep the game flowing.”

The effect was a reduction in midfield congestion, with attacking players able to receive the ball higher up the pitch and defensive lines forced to drop deeper. Rangers boss Willie Waddell, who was Kilmarnock manager when they were hammered by Hearts, had deduced as much before one of his teams again fell victim to the changed rules, this time in a League Cup semi-final defeat to Celtic, of which goal scorer Harry Hood admitted: “the third goal I scored against Rangers would have been offside in a normal game.”

Journalist Glenn Gibbons, recounting his memories of the trial to STV’s The Football Years program, was aware of Waddell's reservations. “[He] said that it would ruin the game because it would take midfield play out of the game. People would just hit long balls forward to players who couldn't be offside. And in fact during that experiment we saw signs of that.”

The Scottish League Cup final presented the opportunity to show the world the viability of removing offside decisions from the equation in midfield play. And there was certainly interest. A delegation were in Glasgow led by FIFA president Sir Stanley Rous, who “I don’t think saw many Scottish matches,” remarked another journalist, Rodger Baillie.

But the game which may have convinced Rous et al to throw their weight behind a change in the rules was played against a chaotic backdrop. Kick-off was brought forward to 1.30pm because of power cuts caused by a fuel crisis, with generators on standby at Hampden. A three day working week was effectively in action, as the nation struggled to meet power demands, with miners and railway workers on strike over an overtime ban.

Treacherous conditions caused by snow and rain led to many not making the trip at all from Dundee, in part down to inaccurate reports the game had been cancelled, with only a smattering of travelling fans carrying on regardless.

"It wasn't a game,” laments Ally Hunter, who was in goal for Celtic in the final. “The ball was sticking in the water and there was no flow to the game at all. Under normal circumstances, the game wouldn’t have gone ahead." Dundee defeated Celtic 1-0 from a Gordon Wallace goal in extra time, their last success in a major cup competition to date.

“I think because there was so many of the important legislators in football, obviously with Rous being the number one at the time, they clearly wanted to try and put it on,” surmised Baillie.

Celtic manager Jock Stein was also far from impressed that his team were involved in the experiment. “Stein objected to it bitterly,” continued Baillie. “He claimed it was unfair to expect players to play on a Wednesday in the League Cup, Saturday in the league then maybe the following week in Europe.

“The last two games would be under normal rules and then they would have to [go] back to this business of the lines drawn across the 18 yard box.” Stein's captain at the time, Billy McNeill, concludes these days that “it was easier for defenders, it would have killed the game.”

In any case, the Scottish FA were the ones who would report back to the next meeting of the International Football Association Board, with five representatives travelling to the Hotel Bachmair in Rottach-Egern, West Germany, on July 9, 1974.

Far from discouraged by their experiences and the complaints of those in the game, it was noted in the minutes of the meeting that “a request by the SFA for their league to be permitted to carry out a further experiment with a line drawn across the field from touch-line to touch-line at a distance of 25 yards from each goal line was refused.”

The IFAB did approve a repeat of the experiment in Scotland for the 1974/75 season, again in the League Cup and Drybrough Cup competitions. The subject returned to the agenda at a summit at the Gleneagles Hotel in 1975. But, after a five-course dinner, wine, liqueurs and cigars, no proposal was submitted by the SFA for the board to vote on. The idea, like the gentlemen’s after-dinner smoke, evaporated into the air for good.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/240624-how-the-scottish-fa-tried-to-revolutionise-the-offside-law/

EZ

eezyrider
06-11-2014, 05:08 PM
On the subject of the Dryburgh Cup it was held 4 times between 1971 and 1974 then again in 1979 and 1980.
The results were:

1971 Aberdeen 2–1 Celtic
1972 Hibernian 5–3 (aet) Celtic
1973 Hibernian 1–0 (aet) Celtic
1974 Celtic 2–2 (4–2p) Rangers
1979 Rangers 3–1 Celtic
1980 Aberdeen 2–1 St. Mirren

EZ

Kaiser1962
06-11-2014, 08:12 PM
We were 3-0 up in the final when we lost our first goal in the competition and Celtic brought it back to 3-3. This was after crowd trouble in the Celtic end of the pitch, stopped play, with Hibs 3-0 up and after Celtic getting back on terms the match went in to extra time, Jimmy O'Rourke scored a screamer and Arthur Duncan scored another great goal in the final minute of extra time and that was that.

I recall it was about a 30 yarder over Evan Williams who was about the penalty spot. Memory might not be so good as I am a bit younger than you :greengrin


Great reading for a then sixteen year old, although the hack must have forgotten that under a year earlier, the Jags had scored four against the same Celtic by half time, in the 71 League Cup Final :greengrin Joking apart, that Celtic team were by far the best I've ever seen in Scotland & it says bundles about the TT's that they could match them on occasions.

:agree:

And I recall that, for a period in the second half, Jimmy Johnstone gave as good a performance as I have ever witnessed. Even more so when you consider the calibre of defenders we had.

snooky
06-11-2014, 11:23 PM
I recall it was about a 30 yarder over Evan Williams who was about the penalty spot. Memory might not be so good as I am a bit younger than you :greengrin
.

Don't exaggerate, it was at least 45 yards! :wink:

Ray_
07-11-2014, 12:35 AM
I recall it was about a 30 yarder over Evan Williams who was about the penalty spot. Memory might not be so good as I am a bit younger than you :greengrin



:agree:

And I recall that, for a period in the second half, Jimmy Johnstone gave as good a performance as I have ever witnessed. Even more so when you consider the calibre of defenders we had.


That's the problem with you youngsters, you don't exaggerate enough, it was at least 47 yards [just to out yard snooky] :greengrin

ShadesLongThrow
07-11-2014, 07:37 AM
I feel your memory may be playing tricks:greengrin

Ha ha, you're probably right. It's the romantic recollections of a 12 year old. :hibees:greengrin

Keith_M
07-11-2014, 09:16 AM
Great reading for a then sixteen year old,.


I was only six, and couldn't actually read yet, so I'll take your word for it.


:wink:

Ray_
07-11-2014, 09:56 AM
I was only six, and couldn't actually read yet, so I'll take your word for it.


:wink:

It would have made a great bedtime story :wink: