PDA

View Full Version : Gordon Strachan comments/16 team premiership (merged)



The Harp Awakes
03-11-2014, 12:25 PM
Interesting interview with Gordon Strachan who says that the leagues should be engineered to promote Hibs, Rangers next season:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/530715/Gordon-Strachan-league-engineering-Rangers-Hibs-Hearts

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 12:28 PM
Then we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Even if Hibs don't get promoted this season, I don't want the leagues re-arranged to get us back into the top tier.

proud_and_green
03-11-2014, 12:29 PM
Interesting interview with Gordon Strachan who says that the leagues should be engineered to promote Hibs, Rangers next season:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/530715/Gordon-Strachan-league-engineering-Rangers-Hibs-Hearts

Cannot agree with this in any shape or form. Football needs more not less honesty. Manipulation of the leagues for expediency would be the end of any trust in a level playing field for many, i would hope all, fans.

Ozyhibby
03-11-2014, 12:31 PM
Not for me. We have to play our way back.

Diclonius
03-11-2014, 12:34 PM
What Strachan's saying is absolutely ridiculous and akin to the Argentinian league's stitch up a few years ago when River Plate finished bottom and the criteria for relegation was miraculously changed to keep them up.

You are in the top league on merit, not how "big" you are. Hearts, Hibs and Rangers are in the Championship through a combination of poor performance and cheating, and they fully deserve it.

SunshineOnLeith
03-11-2014, 12:34 PM
I'm a long term supporter of a bigger top division, but it shouldn't be done just to accommodate Hibs, Hearts and The Rangers.

Pretty Boy
03-11-2014, 12:36 PM
Every one of us is exactly where we deserve to be for differing reasons.

I'd rather we went up on merit than through a rushed reconsttuction. If we take Strachans logic we could just scrap relegation and promotion altogether and pick the teams we want in the top league and leave it at that

greengnome
03-11-2014, 12:36 PM
Cannot agree with this in any shape or form. Football needs more not less honesty. Manipulation of the leagues for expediency would be the end of any trust in a level playing field for many, i would hope all, fans.

Good post.... Certainly agree with your sentiments. We are where we are through issues on and off the park, it is our players, management, and fans who will take us back to the status of a Scottish premier league team... Not manipulation.

:thumbsup::flag:

Diclonius
03-11-2014, 12:36 PM
Two less Old Firm games. Blazers say no.

Dan Sarf
03-11-2014, 12:39 PM
Horrible idea. What next? Sharing out Cup Finals?







Oh wait... :greengrin

WeeRussell
03-11-2014, 12:40 PM
A bit annoying that Strachan has come out with this... been appreciating the wee radge recently with Scotland's good performances and him not coming out with anything too outrageous.

This is absolute pish though. I'd be embarrassed if we found ourselves back in the league via default/arrangement before sorting our own mess out. It would be slightly akin to spending a shed load of money we didn't have and mounting up endless debt to achieve something, and then just writing it all off, starting again and acting like we hadn't done anything wrong.

Cheers Gordon - but just shut yer puss and get the boys ready for Ireland :aok:

Billy Whizz
03-11-2014, 12:40 PM
Two less Old Firm games. Blazers say no.

Think there was going to be a top 8/10 split, ensuring top half played each other 4 times

Centre Hawf
03-11-2014, 12:40 PM
Two less Old Firm games. Blazers say no.

At this point in time they're getting none. They should probably take what they're offered now. I don't in all honesty see them going up this year and another season down here will kill them. Extend the league and they'll take their 2 fixtures.

Argylehibby
03-11-2014, 12:41 PM
Gordon strachan made a comment on Sky at the weekend that was along the lines of Scottish footbals is in a state and they should manipulate the leagues to get Hibs, Hearts and Rangers back in the top leage as it would increase crowds and money would flow through the game. Not saying I agree with the sentiment but increasing the size of the league is the only manipulation that would work.

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 12:41 PM
We seem to be 100% 'No Thanks Gordon' on this one.


:greengrin

Biggie
03-11-2014, 12:43 PM
sorry but wtf has he been smoking ?

Gatecrasher
03-11-2014, 12:48 PM
It wasn't so long ago that the idea of a 16 team SPL was flavour of the month with a high proportion of fans, myself included. As far as I can see there couldn't be a better time than now for the SPFL to give serious consideration to the idea. From what I saw in our game with Dundee Utd, not to mention our defeat of Ross County and the Zombies game with St Johnstone there isn't a great deal to separate the Premiership from the top 4 in our league anyway.

IMO we need to do this to reinvigorate our game .... it would for example give scope to expand the play offs, perhaps even with a one off final.

I know that this has been discussed at length before, but things have changed a bit over the last year .... What do folk think?

The clubs had a great oppertunity to make some changes and the fans were really calling for it but TV and self preservation takes presidence over the developement and the fans of Scottish Football.

SMAXXA
03-11-2014, 12:49 PM
We seem to be 100% 'No Thanks Gordon' on this one.


:greengrin

Interesting given we are the ones likely to still be I'm this division next season.

hibs0666
03-11-2014, 12:51 PM
Professional football in Scotland is indeed in a pitiful state. All options should be on the table including a merger with the English leagues.

WeeRussell
03-11-2014, 12:52 PM
We seem to be 100% 'No Thanks Gordon' on this one.


:greengrin

Nae danger...

someone will be along to agree with wee Gogsie shortly :greengrin

WeeRussell
03-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Nae danger...

someone will be along to agree with wee Gogsie shortly :greengrin


Ah.

The previous poster got in before me :rolleyes:

overdrive
03-11-2014, 01:03 PM
I'm in favour of a 16 team league but in terms of fairness you would have to set out promotion and relegation criteria at the start of a season. Not midway through. I wouldn't want Hibs coming up through some sort of engineered way.

Steve20
03-11-2014, 01:03 PM
I've been a supporter of a 16 team league for well over ten years now. Don't like a 10 team league and a 12 team league means that ridiculous split at the end of the season

Phil MaGlass
03-11-2014, 01:21 PM
Gordon strachan made a comment on Sky at the weekend that was along the lines of Scottish footbals is in a state and they should manipulate the leagues to get Hibs, Hearts and Rangers back in the top leage as it would increase crowds and money would flow through the game. Not saying I agree with the sentiment but increasing the size of the league is the only manipulation that would work.

Thing is money is and has been flowing better through the game since The Rangers were relegated the past two years, and now that we and the diet buns are relegated there is or has never been a better split of money than now.
Not long ago we were all screaming for a bigger Premier league, it never happened, the league should not be made bigger to accomodate Hbs,herts and newco, it should have came into effect this year or last year as a matter of course, I do not think Scottish fitba has been in a stronger state for quite a while, especially when you take a look at some of the well organised teams/clubs at the moment, we are more competitive than we have been for many a year,and that is without us, take a look at Hamilton, D.Utd, StJ etc..etc...

Smartie
03-11-2014, 01:28 PM
I've also been after a bigger top league for some time. I can't be doing with the nonsensical split idea and there is so little difference between 2nd in the prem and the middle of the 1st that there is little likelihood that there would be too many "wee teams" making up the numbers. I'd love it.

It shouldn't be done to help us, Rangers or Hearts though and there are enough question marks about the integrity of the Scottish footballing authorities without rushing nonsense like this through.

It's a "yes" from me but absolutely not this year. Although this is probably the only year that it will be desirable for the authorities.

NAE NOOKIE
03-11-2014, 01:55 PM
Kind of puts to bed the thread I started just before this one popped up. I will delete it :greengrin

For my point of view I understand the school of thought which looks at things purely from a sporting angle. But the state of things currently cannot be ignored, I doubt there was ever a time where anybody would have envisaged a scenario where 3 of Scotland's 5 biggest clubs would be out of the top division. I know the farce in Argentina was mentioned, but I cant help thinking politics as well as finance was at play there. Anyway its not exactly unusual for teams to benefit from league reconstruction ... Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ( I think ) have both done so.

As things stand Motherwell are struggling, St Mirren are up for sale and St Johntone are pleading poverty ... another season in the Championship would be a disaster for Hibs .... even then we would perhaps still have the Yams or a Mike Ashley backed Zombies to contend with next season, which gives the prospect of a third season ..... it could take us 10 years or more to recover.

If the idea was to expand the top league to 14 cubs I don't see how anybody could complain if the top 3 in the Championship were promoted at the end of the season ( you still have to accumulate enough points to get there ) and the bottom premiership club went into a play off with 4th in the Championship. None of the clubs gaining in that scenario would be doing so at the expense of anybody else. Currently 4th in the Championship has to win 2 ties over 2 legs just for a shot at 2nd bottom in the Premiership, so even they would be gaining, but as I say not at anyone's expense.

The fans are still out there as witness the two cup finals last season ..... but the game needs a shot in the arm and a 14 or 16 team Premiership with the 3 biggest derbies in Scottish football reinstated to the top flight could do it. That also affords the opportunity to expand the play offs with perhaps even a one off final. It would also enable us to bin the daft and unfair situation of for example us playing the Yams and Celtic twice away and once at home trying to make the top 6.

IMO Scottish football really needs this. Yes the Yams need a bigger lesson than one season down, yes watching the Zombies certainty that they would make the Premiership in three seasons confounded would be funny and yes Hibs deserve everything they get for sporting mismanagement.

But there is a bigger picture here which cant be ignored and I think it supersedes all of these things .... after all, as I said in the thread I started .... it wasn't all that long ago that a large majority of fans in this country were crying out for league expansion.



I really don't think sporting integrity would be compromised to any great degree in that scenario ......

hibsforeurope
03-11-2014, 01:56 PM
Many teams have benefited from league reconstruction one way or another in the past so why not Hibs? As has been said, many supporters have backed league expansion in previous seasons, which would have benefited other clubs being promoted.

To be honest I couldn't care less how we get there but the main thing has to be getting Hibs back in to the top flight ASAP.

I know this may not be popular but this is my view on things.

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 02:09 PM
I really don't think sporting integrity would be compromised to any great degree in that scenario ......


I can't agree with that.

There were no proposals before the season started to have an expanded top league so the only motivation behind it would be to get Hibs, Hearts and The Rangers promoted at a stroke. If all three of us were already in the top league, this idea would never have been mooted.

So, it is nothing but Gerrymandering.



FWIW, I'd much prefer a bigger league, in line with the majority of Fans who answered the SFA's(?) survey, with Clubs playing each other twice... but not in this way.

Gatecrasher
03-11-2014, 02:09 PM
Many teams have benefited from league reconstruction one way or another in the past so why not Hibs? As has been said, many supporters have backed league expansion in previous seasons, which would have benefited other clubs being promoted.

To be honest I couldn't care less how we get there but the main thing has to be getting Hibs back in to the top flight ASAP.

I know this may not be popular but this is my view on things.

I think the point being made is if the changes were being made to benefit us, Hearts and Rangers just to get us back in the top flight then they are being made for the wrong reason. If they are being made to benefit Scottish Football and we just so happened to benefit from that, whilst some may consider it Jammy I would be happy to accept that

hibsforeurope
03-11-2014, 02:19 PM
I think the point being made is if the changes were being made to benefit us, Hearts and Rangers just to get us back in the top flight then they are being made for the wrong reason. If they are being made to benefit Scottish Football and we just so happened to benefit from that, whilst some may consider it Jammy I would be happy to accept that

I don't think it would be possible to promote all 3 unless they finished in the top 3 in the championship. I guess that Strachan's comments have been made with him presuming Hibs, Hearts and Rangers would finish in the top 3 positions.

In the grand scheme of things having 3 of the larger supported teams back in the SPL may well benefit all the teams in the SPL and give the lower leagues more chance of staying up if they do get promoted.

Hibby Bairn
03-11-2014, 02:26 PM
I'm a long term supporter of a bigger top division, but it shouldn't be done just to accommodate Hibs, Hearts and The Rangers.

100% agree. Hearts and The Rangers should be left out of this proposal completely. Obviously however Hibs should be accommodated. :agree:

NAE NOOKIE
03-11-2014, 02:45 PM
I don't think it would be possible to promote all 3 unless they finished in the top 3 in the championship. I guess that Strachan's comments have been made with him presuming Hibs, Hearts and Rangers would finish in the top 3 positions.

In the grand scheme of things having 3 of the larger supported teams back in the SPL may well benefit all the teams in the SPL and give the lower leagues more chance of staying up if they do get promoted.

This for me too .... I think everybody would benefit not just the 'big three' ... I'm sure you wont get any complaints from Ross County, Motherwell, St Mirren, Killie, possibly Celtic and a few other Premiership clubs.

Dashing Bob S
03-11-2014, 02:48 PM
100% agree. Hearts and The Rangers should be left out of this proposal completely. Obviously however Hibs should be accommodated. :agree:

I think we've just found a sensible, workable compromise that should everybody.

Jones28
03-11-2014, 02:50 PM
Professional football in Scotland is indeed in a pitiful state. All options should be on the table including a merger with the English leagues.

I can't see English teams wanting to include Scottish teams in their leagues. Smaller piece of the pie for everyone. And imagine travelling to Portsmouth or Brighton for games. I think this idea was put to bed when rangers and Celtic were kb'd a few years ago.

soupy
03-11-2014, 03:04 PM
Won't happen, just a few years ago the SFA said there would be too many meaningless games..........but I suppose they could always change their mind....

Pete
03-11-2014, 03:05 PM
I wouldn't mind any sort of engineering to get us promoted.

Just this once if it's for the greater good. :greengrin

lord bunberry
03-11-2014, 03:05 PM
If this is a fast track to a bigger league and an end to playing every team 4 times then we should go for it.

Weststandwanab
03-11-2014, 03:29 PM
Interesting interview with Gordon Strachan who says that the leagues should be engineered to promote Hibs, Rangers next season:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/530715/Gordon-Strachan-league-engineering-Rangers-Hibs-Hearts

Mind bogging arrogance and disrespectful to other clubs in this league.


Won't happen, just a few years ago the SFA said there would be too many meaningless games..........but I suppose they could always change their mind....

Change the SFA !

Bristolhibby
03-11-2014, 03:42 PM
I'll take any kind of juggling, to get back into the top League.

It's madness (of our own making) that we are in the Championship.

I don't mind being disrespectful to other clubs, as they ain't Hibs.

Ross County, Hamilton attendance anyone?

J

yekimevol
03-11-2014, 03:47 PM
Ill take a 16 team league where their's three relegation places, we play each other twice, then then the split happens that means that we lose only one game. This was an issue that happened with the 16 team league that there was fewer games that cost the clubs money, Keeping the split would stop that.

NAE NOOKIE
03-11-2014, 03:56 PM
Professional football in Scotland is indeed in a pitiful state. All options should be on the table including a merger with the English leagues.

Never gonna happen mate.

I always thought if we could get two teams from Dublin ... one each from Cork and Limerick and one each from Belfast and Londonderry it would be a great way to expand our game ....... but how the hell could you make the Northern teams work in the face of the sectarian problem.

I understand there is going to be a move looking to replace the Challenge cup with a 'Celtic cup' involving teams from Wales and Ireland. That would be interesting to see.

Crazyhorse
03-11-2014, 04:03 PM
I think the point being made is if the changes were being made to benefit us, Hearts and Rangers just to get us back in the top flight then they are being made for the wrong reason. If they are being made to benefit Scottish Football and we just so happened to benefit from that, whilst some may consider it Jammy I would be happy to accept that

Doing the right thing for the 'wrong' reason seems to be what a lot of people are objecting to on here.

Can I just ask why? Is there an ethical reason to reject this decision? (Not that I think it will happen).

Waxy
03-11-2014, 04:04 PM
Nah. We played our way down, we must play our way up.

PeeJay
03-11-2014, 04:22 PM
Interesting interview with Gordon Strachan who says that the leagues should be engineered to promote Hibs, Rangers next season:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/530715/Gordon-Strachan-league-engineering-Rangers-Hibs-Hearts


Ridiculous suggestion on the part of national team's manager, shouldn't he be reprimanded for bringing the game into disrepute? Come to think of it, the Express' headline is surely just as stupid as the engineering angle - when were The Rangers ever in the top league - never, as far as I can recall .... can't go back to where they haven't ever been ...

Mathias Jack
03-11-2014, 04:29 PM
We got ourselves into this mess, so we should get ourselves out of it.

Big fat NO to this daft proposal from me...

Lucius Apuleius
03-11-2014, 04:35 PM
A proponent of a16 team league but not in these circumstances.

Speedy
03-11-2014, 05:02 PM
Doing the right thing for the 'wrong' reason seems to be what a lot of people are objecting to on here.

Can I just ask why? Is there an ethical reason to reject this decision? (Not that I think it will happen).

Yes, it's unfair.

Onion
03-11-2014, 05:07 PM
It's a NO from me. Giving Hibs a contrived get-out-of-jail card simply allows Petrie et al to keep doing the bare minimum to keep the club alive. If we have to earn our place, we've much more chance of recruiting better players, rebuilding the fanbase and changing the club's attitude for the better.

Cropley10
03-11-2014, 06:21 PM
Too many folk being very selfish in my view, the SPL, the top tier is really suffering now as a result of what's happened before to the Huns, Hearts and us.

No doubt that three of the bigger teams being out of this league now is hurting the wider game.

Putting that aside, a 16 team league is what I've always wanted, I hate the split and the monotony of 4 games a season whereas a 16 team league would mean the OF wouldn't have the safety blanket of 4 games against the top Clubs, so things can 'even themselves out'.

Looking longer term we could - quite easily - spend 3 seasons in this league, which would have a severe and long-term impact on the Club.

Smartie
03-11-2014, 07:46 PM
Too many folk being very selfish in my view, the SPL, the top tier is really suffering now as a result of what's happened before to the Huns, Hearts and us.

No doubt that three of the bigger teams being out of this league now is hurting the wider game.

Putting that aside, a 16 team league is what I've always wanted, I hate the split and the monotony of 4 games a season whereas a 16 team league would mean the OF wouldn't have the safety blanket of 4 games against the top Clubs, so things can 'even themselves out'.

Looking longer term we could - quite easily - spend 3 seasons in this league, which would have a severe and long-term impact on the Club.

Is the top tier struggling?

From a financial point of view it is. Clubs should have business plans flexible enough to cut costs under these circumstances and not be committed to expenditure they can't afford. Rangers have been gone for a while, Hearts have had it coming for a while and whilst some were probably surprised that we went down I'd be surprised if our absence from the SPFL had a seriously detrimental effect on any club up there. The current situation shouldn't be a surprise to anyone so I don't have any sympathy for any club who are unable to cut their cloth appropriately.

I haven't paid much attention to the top league this year but like to have a glance at it and see Accies up there, I like to see Celtic toiling again, seeing United getting another decent young team together even after selling their best players.

Sporting integrity IS important. Scotland's best teams are in the top league - the 3 big teams in the Championship deserve to be there. For the same reason Rangers had to be dealt with the way they were, the right thing has to be done here and that is that whatever is decided prior to the start of the season has to be stuck to. Otherwise football in this country has about as much credibility as WWF wrestling.

NAE NOOKIE
03-11-2014, 08:56 PM
Is the top tier struggling?

From a financial point of view it is. Clubs should have business plans flexible enough to cut costs under these circumstances and not be committed to expenditure they can't afford. Rangers have been gone for a while, Hearts have had it coming for a while and whilst some were probably surprised that we went down I'd be surprised if our absence from the SPFL had a seriously detrimental effect on any club up there. The current situation shouldn't be a surprise to anyone so I don't have any sympathy for any club who are unable to cut their cloth appropriately.

I haven't paid much attention to the top league this year but like to have a glance at it and see Accies up there, I like to see Celtic toiling again, seeing United getting another decent young team together even after selling their best players.

Sporting integrity IS important. Scotland's best teams are in the top league - the 3 big teams in the Championship deserve to be there. For the same reason Rangers had to be dealt with the way they were, the right thing has to be done here and that is that whatever is decided prior to the start of the season has to be stuck to. Otherwise football in this country has about as much credibility as WWF wrestling.

I think the top flight clubs have cut to the bone and there isn't any more cutting possible. This Saturday Dundee Utd got 6,808. Hamilton got 2,855 and Killie got 4,481. On the Friday St Johnstone got 2,531 ... Ross County are at home tonight .. less than 4,000 I would guess.

Apart from Utd these are League of Ireland crowds where the majority of top league clubs are part time.

If the case was being made to promote Hibs, Hearts and The Rangers irrespective of their league position at the end of the season then yes sporting integrity would be an issue, but that's not what is being proposed .... the winners of the league competition will still be champions.

Its not as if a proposal is being made to permanently protect the big boys from relegation. This is a proposal to protect full time football in Scotland IMO ........ If the top 6 clubs end up as the only full time teams then where is the fairness then? ... how do the others compete then?

Taking a hard and unpalatable, but pragmatic decision to address what might be a crisis for professional football in this country may not be ideal ... but neither is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I live in fear of us ending up in a League of Ireland situation, where their game is a side issue to the EPL coz most 'fans' support Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs.

weonlywon6-2
03-11-2014, 09:47 PM
Then we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Even if Hibs don't get promoted this season, I don't want the leagues re-arranged to get us back into the top tier.

I would take it in a heartbeat,imo i think we would be stupid not to

Sir David Gray
03-11-2014, 09:55 PM
It won't happen anyway so I don't see the point in talking about it too much.

However if this situation is what it takes to speed up league reform then I'm all for it.

portycabbage
03-11-2014, 10:32 PM
I think the top flight clubs have cut to the bone and there isn't any more cutting possible. This Saturday Dundee Utd got 6,808. Hamilton got 2,855 and Killie got 4,481. On the Friday St Johnstone got 2,531 ... Ross County are at home tonight .. less than 4,000 I would guess.

Apart from Utd these are League of Ireland crowds where the majority of top league clubs are part time.

If the case was being made to promote Hibs, Hearts and The Rangers irrespective of their league position at the end of the season then yes sporting integrity would be an issue, but that's not what is being proposed .... the winners of the league competition will still be champions.

Its not as if a proposal is being made to permanently protect the big boys from relegation. This is a proposal to protect full time football in Scotland IMO ........ If the top 6 clubs end up as the only full time teams then where is the fairness then? ... how do the others compete then?

Taking a hard and unpalatable, but pragmatic decision to address what might be a crisis for professional football in this country may not be ideal ... but neither is cutting off your nose to spite your face. I live in fear of us ending up in a League of Ireland situation, where their game is a side issue to the EPL coz most 'fans' support Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs.

The attendances you mention would technically be above average for all but one LOI club, according to this thing I found:wink:

http://sportsfansireland.com/2014/08/22/league-of-ireland-premier-division-attendance-table/

Attendances in Scotland were recently said to be the highest of any country in Europe (per head of population), and you pay more than you would for games in other countries where the standard of football is better (eg Germany and Spain, IIRC)

IMO the attendances in the Scottish premiership are not a reason for engineering a return for us and the other two, it should be decided on football results alone. We'd still have to finish top three, as you point out, but it would be changing the rules of the competition after it's started. The clubs in the league above us who have lower attendances have earned the right to play in that league, despite competing with clubs with greater resources, some of whom were bolstering their resources still further with taxpayers money and the like.

People would view it as being done just to save The Rangers the trouble of a play-off. I don't think it helps smaller clubs attendances if clubs with greater resources are given more help when they make an arse of things. I actually would quite like an 18 team top flight, but the idea of getting in by league reconstruction reminds me of a mate of mine who as a kid got a judo trophy as a birthday present from his gran, rather than winning it (she had it engraved and everything!:greengrin)

matty_f
03-11-2014, 10:46 PM
If this is a fast track to a bigger league and an end to playing every team 4 times then we should go for it.

Yep. I was in favour of a bigger top flight when we were in it, and IMHO the quicker it happens, the better. If it means we benefit, I can live with it.

greenlex
04-11-2014, 01:07 AM
Two leagues if 16 then a pyramid structure below that. I've been saying it for years. If they changed it for next season I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Keith_M
04-11-2014, 09:10 AM
Two leagues if 16 then a pyramid structure below that. I've been saying it for years. .....


In the long term, that's what I would favour.

Play other teams once home and once away. No more stupid split.

flash
04-11-2014, 09:22 AM
So basically its a good idea to expand the league but not if we benefit?
We have watched other clubs get away with murder for years and the first time we might actually enjoy some good fortune everyone climbs up to the moral high ground.

greenginger
04-11-2014, 09:27 AM
In the long term, that's what I would favour.

Play other teams once home and once away. No more stupid split.


I think the split adds a real interest to mid-table teams half way through the season.

16 team league playing twice is only 30 matches. Add playing each team in your half of the split once and you have a 37 match league.

Keith_M
04-11-2014, 09:52 AM
So basically its a good idea to expand the league but not if we benefit?
We have watched other clubs get away with murder for years and the first time we might actually enjoy some good fortune everyone climbs up to the moral high ground.


That's not what people have said.

The argument is that changes like this should be made on their own merit, not just to gerrymander the larger teams immediately into the top league.

lord bunberry
04-11-2014, 09:59 AM
I think the split adds a real interest to mid-table teams half way through the season.

16 team league playing twice is only 30 matches. Add playing each team in your half of the split once and you have a 37 match league.

The problem with doing that is it means having an unequal number of home and away games, also you would have to play some teams twice away and once at home. In our world of crazy conspiracy theories the lunatics would have a field day. I've heard talk of making the league cup sections and playing them on a Saturday, which could work.

greenginger
04-11-2014, 10:02 AM
That's not what people have said.

The argument is that changes like this should be made on their own merit, not just to gerrymander the larger teams immediately into the top league.


I would only consider it gerrymandering if the it was'nt the teams who were in the top league positions who get promoted.

If the league structure changes are voted for by the required majority I see nothing wrong with it.

I wonder if it is just Strachan's musings, or has he been asked to fly a kite.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:33 AM
I agree with Strachan. If Rod Petrie's continuing presence at the club is to maintain his SFA influence then he should be using that influence to do what is best for our football club and run with this. As for fairness, I just don't care. All those who were going to march behind their Sporting Integrity banners back in to our football grounds after Sevco's relegation obviously didn't because they didn't show up in any sort of numbers. It was largely an excuse to give Rangers a right good kicking. If your average fan really cared about sporting integrity then it wouldn't have been mainly us who were concerned with Hearts financial mismanagement. Fans of other clubs really weren't that outraged by them . For that reason I can't agree with any talk of us not wanting league reconstruction because we might be seen to have some sort of unfair advantage. We should grab every single chance to get back up there where we belong.

Smartie
04-11-2014, 10:56 AM
I agree with Strachan. If Rod Petrie's continuing presence at the club is to maintain his SFA influence then he should be using that influence to do what is best for our football club and run with this. As for fairness, I just don't care. All those who were going to march behind their Sporting Integrity banners back in to our football grounds after Sevco's relegation obviously didn't because they didn't show up in any sort of numbers. It was largely an excuse to give Rangers a right good kicking. If your average fan really cared about sporting integrity then it wouldn't have been mainly us who were concerned with Hearts financial mismanagement. Fans of other clubs really weren't that outraged by them . For that reason I can't agree with any talk of us not wanting league reconstruction because we might be seen to have some sort of unfair advantage. We should grab every single chance to get back up there where we belong.

If Rangers hadn't been "dealt with" in a suitable fashion then I'd have been done with Scottish football. So whilst I didn't exactly "march back" to it I didn't walk away. They're not a club that it is easy for me to respect but at least they've done (or are doing) their time. And there is still a bit of mileage in the The Rangers story yet.

If Hearts had drawn up a business plan to pull off what they did then you'd have to consider it to be a masterstroke. As it was they gambled the very existence of their club and for what? A few Scottish Cups? They are getting away with what appears to be a very light punishment for what they did but it seems to be down to luck rather than anything. But they did what they did and fair play to them. And there's still a lot to play for this season - another year or 2 in this league and see how their fans like that.

We need to have a rigid structure in place so that clubs who mismanage their finances so badly as to cause misery to creditors etc are seriously reprimanded and that it is a deterrent to others who are planning on doing likewise. We need to make sure that teams that are as pish as we were last year don't get to play in the premier league. The 3 teams are exactly where they should be and should have to play their way back up.

If they decide at the end of this season that after the 2015-2016 they want to expand the top league then fine. I do genuinely believe we need a bigger top league. But the goalposts should never be moved, ever, for anyone during a season. Having shunned goal-line technology and failed to adopt that spray-can free-kick thing we can't go just choosing who plays in what division. We'd be as well just picking the winners of the matches in advance.

greenginger
04-11-2014, 12:26 PM
The problem with doing that is it means having an unequal number of home and away games, also you would have to play some teams twice away and once at home. In our world of crazy conspiracy theories the lunatics would have a field day. I've heard talk of making the league cup sections and playing them on a Saturday, which could work.


Yeah, but if the fixtures are established before the season starts, ie.

Team at the top after 30 games plays the second, forth, sixth, and eighth at home and the other 3 teams away, second place plays third ,fifth, and seventh at home and the other four away , and so on.

Its not perfect, but neither is the present system that involves making up fixtures depending on who qualifies for top six.

hibsforeurope
04-11-2014, 12:28 PM
If Rangers hadn't been "dealt with" in a suitable fashion then I'd have been done with Scottish football. So whilst I didn't exactly "march back" to it I didn't walk away. They're not a club that it is easy for me to respect but at least they've done (or are doing) their time. And there is still a bit of mileage in the The Rangers story yet.

If Hearts had drawn up a business plan to pull off what they did then you'd have to consider it to be a masterstroke. As it was they gambled the very existence of their club and for what? A few Scottish Cups? They are getting away with what appears to be a very light punishment for what they did but it seems to be down to luck rather than anything. But they did what they did and fair play to them. And there's still a lot to play for this season - another year or 2 in this league and see how their fans like that.

We need to have a rigid structure in place so that clubs who mismanage their finances so badly as to cause misery to creditors etc are seriously reprimanded and that it is a deterrent to others who are planning on doing likewise. We need to make sure that teams that are as pish as we were last year don't get to play in the premier league. The 3 teams are exactly where they should be and should have to play their way back up.

If they decide at the end of this season that after the 2015-2016 they want to expand the top league then fine. I do genuinely believe we need a bigger top league. But the goalposts should never be moved, ever, for anyone during a season. Having shunned goal-line technology and failed to adopt that spray-can free-kick thing we can't go just choosing who plays in what division. We'd be as well just picking the winners of the matches in advance.

Moving the goalposts has happened in the past to benefit teams (Aberdeen springs to mind) so why can't it happen again. I don't see an issue, if we finish 3rd or 4th this season, to league expansion for next season.

The club is much more likely to attract potential bidders in the top league than it would as a championship team for more than 1 season.
You can't look a gift horse in the mouth, if an extra chance of promotion is there it needs to be snapped up to protect the long term future of Hibs as a professional club.

WeeRussell
04-11-2014, 12:34 PM
Moving the goalposts has happened in the past to benefit teams (Aberdeen springs to mind) so why can't it happen again. I don't see an issue, if we finish 3rd or 4th this season, to league expansion for next season.

The club is much more likely to attract potential bidders in the top league than it would as a championship team for more than 1 season.
You can't look a gift horse in the mouth, if an extra chance of promotion is there it needs to be snapped up to protect the long term future of Hibs as a professional club.

I doubt anybody is suggesting that Hibs should refuse promotion in this unlikely eventuality. I for one, however, would be somewhat embarrassed if this is how we got back to where we ought to be.

All for restructuring the leagues - but what teams are playing for should be clear at the start of the season, not changed half-way through because Gordon Strachan wants us back there.

NAE NOOKIE
04-11-2014, 12:37 PM
OMG ..... How far up ourselves can we get, and we accuse the Yams of arrogance. This isn't all about Hibs, or the Yams or The Rangers, this is about the whole of Scottish football.

The question isn't what do we think about this, the question is what do the other clubs and their fans and owners think? Would a move to a 16 team league benefit, or even save, the likes of Motherwell or St Mirren or Killie from going part time or worse, going under.

There was a lot of, justified, sanctimonious talk about folk giving up the game if the Zombies were given special treatment. I didn't agree that the clubs couldn't live without them, and that proved to be the case. But having said that there were a lot of folk who had a lot to say at the time from every club, who it seems to me haven't exactly stepped up to the plate when it came to backing their clubs by going to games.

I am a fan of Hibs ...... But I also love Scottish football. I love the fact that a pishy wee country like this one can run a full time professional football league against all the odds. I love it when a club with a 500 strong away support suddenly turns up with 2,000 on a Wednesday night. I love the lads at the likes of Motherwell and Hibs, who see less then half full stadiums and move heaven and earth to create an atmosphere.

The last 5 years in Scottish football have been a train wreck. But I would like to think that we can finally move on from those dark times, The Zombies have served their time, the Yams have a lot to live down, but they are no longer the Romanov Yams ... and a lot of other clubs who were living beyond their means have come to their senses ..... but is it too late?

As yet none of the clubs have directly said that a move to a 16 team league is urgently required, but if they do then that puts Scottish football at a crossroads ..... If taking the right road leads to a better and more sustainable future and that road is a 16 team league then for the long term good of the game we must take it. I don't agree that this would be anything like the affront to sporting integrity that others do and whether or not Hibs benefit is not uppermost in my thinking here ..... the good of Scottish football is.

At the end of WW2 when Japan realised it had no choice but to capitulate or see the country reduced to a burnt out wasteland with millions dead the emperor came on the radio and said to the people " we must endure the unendurable " ......... The time had come to balance the good of the whole against the unimaginable shame of surrender.

A bit of an extreme example ... but I think it conveys what I'm trying to say.

WeeRussell
04-11-2014, 12:46 PM
OMG ..... How far up ourselves can we get, and we accuse the Yams of arrogance. This isn't all about Hibs, or the Yams or The Rangers, this is about the whole of Scottish football.

The question isn't what do we think about this, the question is what do the other clubs and their fans and owners think? Would a move to a 16 team league benefit, or even save, the likes of Motherwell or St Mirren or Killie from going part time or worse, going under.

There was a lot of, justified, sanctimonious talk about folk giving up the game if the Zombies were given special treatment. I didn't agree that the clubs couldn't live without them, and that proved to be the case. But having said that there were a lot of folk who had a lot to say at the time from every club, who it seems to me haven't exactly stepped up to the plate when it came to backing their clubs by going to games.

I am a fan of Hibs ...... But I also love Scottish football. I love the fact that a pishy wee country like this one can run a full time professional football league against all the odds. I love it when a club with a 500 strong away support suddenly turns up with 2,000 on a Wednesday night. I love the lads at the likes of Motherwell and Hibs, who see less then half full stadiums and move heaven and earth to create an atmosphere.

The last 5 years in Scottish football have been a train wreck. But I would like to think that we can finally move on from those dark times, The Zombies have served their time, the Yams have a lot to live down, but they are no longer the Romanov Yams ... and a lot of other clubs who were living beyond their means have come to their senses ..... but is it too late?

As yet none of the clubs have directly said that a move to a 16 team league is urgently required, but if they do then that puts Scottish football at a crossroads ..... If taking the right road leads to a better and more sustainable future and that road is a 16 team league then for the long term good of the game we must take it. I don't agree that this would be anything like the affront to sporting integrity that others do and whether or not Hibs benefit is not uppermost in my thinking here ..... the good of Scottish football is.

At the end of WW2 when Japan realised it had no choice but to capitulate or see the country reduced to a burnt out wasteland with millions dead the emperor came on the radio and said to the people " we must endure the unendurable " ......... The time had come to balance the good of the whole against the unimaginable shame of surrender.

A bit of an extreme example ... but I think it conveys what I'm trying to say.

Are you sure?

The opening line of the thread (albeit two threads have been merged so maybe you had been following the general 16-team idea one!) was "Interesting interview with Gordon Strachan who says that the leagues should be engineered to promote Hibs, Rangers next season:"

This thread was posted on a Hibs fans' forum. The Hibs fans then gave their opinion on how they would feel if the leagues were "engineered to promote Hibs." The majority seem to be of the opinion that they wouldn't be comfortable if this was done to benefit us (and Hearts and Rangers) directly in the short term - but that they are in favour of some form of league restructuring.

Steaming in banding it arrogance is over the top.

The_Exile
04-11-2014, 12:56 PM
I've been saying for years that a 16 team league is the way to go with 30 game seasons, then a regionalised (within reason, we'd all need equal numbers in the mini leagues) league cup with mini-leagues, a second/third round, quarter final, semi's and final. this would enable smaller clubs to get relatively large pay days with a few of the Premiership clubs visiting once a season, all in all we'd end up with more games than we have now (14 games if you go all the way to the league cup final)

42 league teams
Junior Scottish Cup winner
3x Junior Superleague Winners
Another 2 invitations
Total of 48 teams, split into 8 seeded groups of 6
Everyone gets 10 league games at a minimum (home and away), top 2 go through
16 teams left, unseeded draw
Quarter finals, unseeded draw
Semis
Final

Keith_M
04-11-2014, 01:06 PM
OMG ..... How far up ourselves can we get, and we accuse the Yams of arrogance. This isn't all about Hibs, or the Yams or The Rangers, this is about the whole of Scottish football.

The question isn't what do we think about this, the question is what do the other clubs and their fans and owners think? Would a move to a 16 team league benefit, or even save, the likes of Motherwell or St Mirren or Killie from going part time or worse, going under.

There was a lot of, justified, sanctimonious talk about folk giving up the game if the Zombies were given special treatment. I didn't agree that the clubs couldn't live without them, and that proved to be the case. But having said that there were a lot of folk who had a lot to say at the time from every club, who it seems to me haven't exactly stepped up to the plate when it came to backing their clubs by going to games.

I am a fan of Hibs ...... But I also love Scottish football. I love the fact that a pishy wee country like this one can run a full time professional football league against all the odds. I love it when a club with a 500 strong away support suddenly turns up with 2,000 on a Wednesday night. I love the lads at the likes of Motherwell and Hibs, who see less then half full stadiums and move heaven and earth to create an atmosphere.

The last 5 years in Scottish football have been a train wreck. But I would like to think that we can finally move on from those dark times, The Zombies have served their time, the Yams have a lot to live down, but they are no longer the Romanov Yams ... and a lot of other clubs who were living beyond their means have come to their senses ..... but is it too late?

As yet none of the clubs have directly said that a move to a 16 team league is urgently required, but if they do then that puts Scottish football at a crossroads ..... If taking the right road leads to a better and more sustainable future and that road is a 16 team league then for the long term good of the game we must take it. I don't agree that this would be anything like the affront to sporting integrity that others do and whether or not Hibs benefit is not uppermost in my thinking here ..... the good of Scottish football is.

At the end of WW2 when Japan realised it had no choice but to capitulate or see the country reduced to a burnt out wasteland with millions dead the emperor came on the radio and said to the people " we must endure the unendurable " ......... The time had come to balance the good of the whole against the unimaginable shame of surrender.

A bit of an extreme example ... but I think it conveys what I'm trying to say.


Hi NN. I normally enjoy your posts but I have to admit that you've lost me on this one.

Any chance you could summarise what your point was, for the stupid among us? Maybe it's just me

:wink:


Oh and the Japan and WWII thing....wow! :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
04-11-2014, 05:56 PM
Hi NN. I normally enjoy your posts but I have to admit that you've lost me on this one.

Any chance you could summarise what your point was, for the stupid among us? Maybe it's just me

:wink:


Oh and the Japan and WWII thing....wow! :greengrin

This for Wee Russell too:

Simply that it seems to me that most of the thread appears to be folk not wanting a 16 team league set up for what they see as the wrong reasons .... E.G. that the likes of Hibs might avoid the full consequences of relegation. Even though they may have been all for the idea in different circumstances.

I don't think anybody, including Strachan, is suggesting that the 'big three' go up no matter where they finish this season. But if at any point a 16 team league is ( or had been ) formed you would have to promote at least the top 3 from the Championship anyway .... so why does it matter if its us this time. In any case its not written in stone we wont go up irrespective of league reconstruction.

As I said before ... there has been a pretty strong feeling amongst most fans for some time that the league should be bigger, it seems to me that to dismiss the idea now because its not being suggested as a result of fan pressure, but because it might be a way for the SPFL to dig a number of clubs out of a hole seems counter productive, or even IMO petty.

We should have had a bigger league 3 years ago ... I don't think its such a big deal if its done now without everybody getting 2 years notice if there is a genuine and urgent need for it.

Ye cannae beat a guid WW2 analogy ..... at least I never mentioned the Nazis .......... damn !!! :greengrin

DH1875
04-11-2014, 06:08 PM
I'm all for a 16 team league. When/if it happens, someone will benefit
Why not us for a change?

Hibtastic
04-11-2014, 06:38 PM
Did anyone see Strachan on Goals on Sunday at the weekend. Very entertaining and quite funny. He should be on the TV more. :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
04-11-2014, 06:56 PM
Did anyone see Strachan on Goals on Sunday at the weekend. Very entertaining and quite funny. He should be on the TV more. :greengrin

Pre Celtic .... funny guy made me laugh.

With Celtic .... a defensive sarcastic wee prat.

Post Celtic .... Back on form and likeable again.

I'm sure I'm not imagining it and its not just coz I cant stand Celtic ..... He must have bought into the 'Celtic minded' thing, which to the casual observer means acting like a self absorbed prick.

Eyrie
04-11-2014, 08:49 PM
I don't like the idea of a 16 team league, with three fewer home games. The suggestion that this can be compensated for by having a group stage in the League Cup is a poor idea for two reasons - most of the games will be one-sided and it seriously limits the possibility of a smaller club progressing which can happen in a one-off tie (as we know to our cost).

So why not 20 teams and 38 games, so there is an extra home league game for everyone?

The disadvantage to either suggestion is of course that there will be a large number of meaningless mid-table fixtures from February onwards, which will hit attendances. However the extra home game in a 20 team league will help offset this.

The Harp Awakes
04-11-2014, 09:40 PM
I think that there is a bigger financial problem here than many realise. The nightmare scenario for the SPFL is that 2 of Hibs, Rangers and Hearts are not promoted this season. Losing all 3 teams from the top league last season was a massive financial loss to many SPFL clubs and I know that from a friend who is the Chairman and owner of one of those Clubs.

Most fans want a 16 team top flight and this might be the only opportunity to get it.

StokePogesHibs
05-11-2014, 02:59 AM
Fully support a larger top league. I started watching Hibs in the early 70's. More teams, more competitive and more chances for young Scots to develop. The Premier League created a 'loss avoidance, negative football culture' We are still feeling the consequences of this 40 years later. The crowds deserted due to lack of entertainment and the national side deteriorated over the long haul.

Nobody wants to give up 4 old firm games but then remember the crowds Hibs had in the 1st Division last time round. We've got to get more teams and players playing to entertain and not avoid defeat. I'd also think about including 4 sides from across the Irish Sea to compete in a larger League of the Gaels.

NAE NOOKIE
05-11-2014, 11:30 AM
Fully support a larger top league. I started watching Hibs in the early 70's. More teams, more competitive and more chances for young Scots to develop. The Premier League created a 'loss avoidance, negative football culture' We are still feeling the consequences of this 40 years later. The crowds deserted due to lack of entertainment and the national side deteriorated over the long haul.

Nobody wants to give up 4 old firm games but then remember the crowds Hibs had in the 1st Division last time round. We've got to get more teams and players playing to entertain and not avoid defeat. I'd also think about including 4 sides from across the Irish Sea to compete in a larger League of the Gaels.

I have mooted this on here a few times, without a great deal of response either way.

As far as I can see Northern Ireland is out ... Derry City ended up playing in the republic for a reason. Also the OF would never agree to something which might affect their Northern Irish fan base.

As for the South looking at their 4 biggest centres of population:

DUBLIN ....... Pop 1,110, 000 ..... 5 clubs who between them have a total average attendance of just over 7,000 the biggest being Shamrock Rovers on 3,112 and the lowest University College Dublin ( UCD ) with 455 per game.

CORK ......... Pop 198,000 ....... Cork City who average 2,063

LIMERICK .... Pop 91,454 ..... Limerick FC who average 2,242

GALWAY ..... Pop 76,778 ..... Galway FC, average unknown .... but their ground holds 5,000

In their current state its hard to see how any of these clubs could add anything to a new league. You could amalgamate the 4 biggest Dublin clubs into 2 clubs ... a hard task I would guess. I'm also willing to bet the capacity and facilities at most cubs falls way below Scottish Premiership standards.

You would need to do a mountain of market research to find out if the Irish population would support their clubs in a new league to the extent where the league would be any more financially viable than the SPFL. Even if the answer was yes quite a bit of Stadium renovation, or even building, would be required.

The Irish clubs would also have to go full time .. How can players with other jobs travel from Dublin or Cork to Inverness for a midweek fixture? The same goes for Scottish players if one of the Irish clubs ended up in the Championship.

I do have a romantic notion of an expanded league with Irish teams in it, but sadly you would need Bill Gates to fund it. It would be great to have the 4 best supported clubs in Ireland in our league ... but I doubt Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal would be interested :bitchy:

Keith_M
05-11-2014, 01:03 PM
This for Wee Russell too:

Simply that it seems to me that most of the thread appears to be folk not wanting a 16 team league set up for what they see as the wrong reasons .... E.G. that the likes of Hibs might avoid the full consequences of relegation. Even though they may have been all for the idea in different circumstances.

I don't think anybody, including Strachan, is suggesting that the 'big three' go up no matter where they finish this season. But if at any point a 16 team league is ( or had been ) formed you would have to promote at least the top 3 from the Championship anyway .... so why does it matter if its us this time. In any case its not written in stone we wont go up irrespective of league reconstruction.

As I said before ... there has been a pretty strong feeling amongst most fans for some time that the league should be bigger, it seems to me that to dismiss the idea now because its not being suggested as a result of fan pressure, but because it might be a way for the SPFL to dig a number of clubs out of a hole seems counter productive, or even IMO petty.

We should have had a bigger league 3 years ago ... I don't think its such a big deal if its done now without everybody getting 2 years notice if there is a genuine and urgent need for it.

Ye cannae beat a guid WW2 analogy ..... at least I never mentioned the Nazis .......... damn !!! :greengrin

Cheers,

Shame about the Godwin slip at the end.

:wink:

NAE NOOKIE
05-11-2014, 01:49 PM
Cheers,

Shame about the Godwin slip at the end.

:wink:

I was being sarcastic :greengrin

Crazyhorse
05-11-2014, 03:40 PM
Yes, it's unfair.


Unfair to whom?

Smartie
05-11-2014, 06:59 PM
I'm actually pleased that Strachan brought the subject up.

I think it's healthy to have people chucking ideas out there, to have them debated on the various forums and between those that actually have the power to make the decision.

The "powers that be" can then make a decision. That decision should, imo, NEVER be made during a season to affect the following season though. Once you've started a season the goalposts shouldn't be moved.

If they choose to bring about a move to a bigger league for the following again season, I'd be all for it.

Never should it be done this way though.

greenginger
05-11-2014, 07:09 PM
I still wonder if it is just Strachan's personal thoughts, or have the Blazers at the SPFL and SFA got him to raise the matter, as he is about the only credible voice in Scottish Football at the moment.

If its the latter , there are chances something might come of it.

JimBHibees
06-11-2014, 02:38 PM
I still wonder if it is just Strachan's personal thoughts, or have the Blazers at the SPFL and SFA got him to raise the matter, as he is about the only credible voice in Scottish Football at the moment.

If its the latter , there are chances something might come of it.

My guess would be the latter to be honest.

AndyM_1875
07-11-2014, 08:56 AM
I think that there is a bigger financial problem here than many realise. The nightmare scenario for the SPFL is that 2 of Hibs, Rangers and Hearts are not promoted this season. Losing all 3 teams from the top league last season was a massive financial loss to many SPFL clubs and I know that from a friend who is the Chairman and owner of one of those Clubs.

Most fans want a 16 team top flight and this might be the only opportunity to get it.

I think what you suggest is highly likely.

I expect Rangers to win the Championship, they have the biggest squad. They are already eating into Hearts lead and I expect them to pull ahead by the end of January. Hibs and Hearts then fight it out to go to St Mirren or Killie lets say.
The Premier side does a backs to the wall job in Edinburgh (0-0) and then wins at their home ground. So they get Rangers in the top flight and the Championship is still left with 2 clubs way too big for it. The only person happy about that is Peter Lawell as he get's his cash cow game back to plug the financial gap of Celtic being nowhere near good enough for CL.

Keith_M
07-11-2014, 09:07 AM
I was being sarcastic :greengrin

I know

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/greengrin2.gif

AndyM_1875
07-11-2014, 09:11 AM
If Rangers hadn't been "dealt with" in a suitable fashion then I'd have been done with Scottish football. ......

All well and good but please explain why folk as Marinello59 rightly suggests were howling their outrage at Rangers and squealing about "Sporting Integrity" and joined in giving the Govan club a right good kicking yet got their hankies out to wipe away their tears of sympathy and bought into the myths being peddled from Tynecastle (aided by the same compliant MSM that had just finished booting Rangers) about 'poor wee Hearts, the brave young laddies'. A big bad Lithuanian did it and ran away. Aren't they wonderful, they're paying the Living Wage with no mention of a load of burned creditors and debts that dwarf those of Rangers.

Someone please explain that to me because I think Sporting Integrity got up and left a long time ago.

NAE NOOKIE
07-11-2014, 01:13 PM
All well and good but please explain why folk as Marinello59 rightly suggests were howling their outrage at Rangers and squealing about "Sporting Integrity" and joined in giving the Govan club a right good kicking yet got their hankies out to wipe away their tears of sympathy and bought into the myths being peddled from Tynecastle (aided by the same compliant MSM that had just finished booting Rangers) about 'poor wee Hearts, the brave young laddies'. A big bad Lithuanian did it and ran away. Aren't they wonderful, they're paying the Living Wage with no mention of a load of burned creditors and debts that dwarf those of Rangers.

Someone please explain that to me because I think Sporting Integrity got up and left a long time ago.

The Yams got off light, there is no doubt about it. There could be a number of factors involved. The Yams didn't skoosh the league year on year .... and perhaps the appetite wasn't there in the press to hand out another kicking, also from the viewpoint outside of Edinburgh it was easier to accept that Romanov was the baddie and Hearts the victim, even though we know there were folk at that club who knew what they were doing was cheating and would end in disaster and did nothing. It must also be acknowledged that like it or not the Yams were never liquidated and therefor the scope for punishment was less

Of all the cubs in Scotland nobody suffered at the hands of Yam cheating more than us, we said for years that something was going on and got ignored. We rightly boak at that club mere months down the line patting themselves on the back for setting an example, when if they had any shame they would shut up and get on with it.

But now for the good of Scottish football we must put the Rangers and Yams stuff behind us and work for a new future which gets the game back on its feet. As far as the league goes .... leagues around the world get reorganised all the time for a number of reasons, mostly financial ..... if that is being done at the behest of the vast majority of clubs and when the league kicks off the following season the 'expansion' clubs are the top three or four in the Championship by points gained, then I for one would hardly see it as an affront to sporting integrity.

Steve-O
08-11-2014, 12:31 AM
Gordon strachan made a comment on Sky at the weekend that was along the lines of Scottish footbals is in a state and they should manipulate the leagues to get Hibs, Hearts and Rangers back in the top leage as it would increase crowds and money would flow through the game. Not saying I agree with the sentiment but increasing the size of the league is the only manipulation that would work.

Where was all this money when all 3 were in the top league not so long ago?

greenginger
08-11-2014, 12:45 AM
Where was all this money when all 3 were in the top league not so long ago?

Clubs were not loaded ,but a visit from Hibs, Hearts or Rangers has to be more lucrative than Ross County or Hamilton turning up with two bus loads of supporters.

Bishop Hibee
08-11-2014, 01:31 AM
I say no to a 16 team league. Only 30 games for starters. I'd prefer an 18 league team if we must have a have minimum with a League Cup group to increase the number of home fixtures.

I'd actually prefer a 10 team league with 1 up 1 down and a play off which I believe suits a league the size we have.

franck sauzee
08-11-2014, 11:30 AM
What Strachan's saying is absolutely ridiculous and akin to the Argentinian league's stitch up a few years ago when River Plate finished bottom and the criteria for relegation was miraculously changed to keep them up.

You are in the top league on merit, not how "big" you are. Hearts, Hibs and Rangers are in the Championship through a combination of poor performance and cheating, and they fully deserve it.

What year was this because I recently remember River Plate being relegated after losing a playoff, around 3 years ago. The match was interrupted by rioting. Also remember betting on them in primera b division so they have definitely been relegated

NAE NOOKIE
08-11-2014, 12:17 PM
I say no to a 16 team league. Only 30 games for starters. I'd prefer an 18 league team if we must have a have minimum with a League Cup group to increase the number of home fixtures.

I'd actually prefer a 10 team league with 1 up 1 down and a play off which I believe suits a league the size we have.

The whole point of wanting a bigger league from a fans point of view was that everybody was fed up seeing the same teams all the time in a 10 team league.

16 seems the ideal number for me, it gives scope to have a real play off scenario at the end of the season, with a one off final instead of a 2 leg play off. There is nothing wrong with a split either. If it was up to me we would have an 8/8 split giving every team a total of 44 games, 22 home, 22 away. I would also make it that the bottom 8 start their post split campaign with their points wiped out from the pre split campaign. The bottom team starts on zero points and the best team on seven.

greenginger
08-11-2014, 12:37 PM
44 games is too many for our league. Fitting them all in with league cup and Scottish cup, and European games for clubs and blank weeks for national qualifiers.

16 team league, split after 30 fixtures with 7 games after the split would work for me.

NAE NOOKIE
08-11-2014, 12:57 PM
44 games is too many for our league. Fitting them all in with league cup and Scottish cup, and European games for clubs and blank weeks for national qualifiers.

16 team league, split after 30 fixtures with 7 games after the split would work for me.

Yeh 44 is a lot I guess

Eyrie
08-11-2014, 04:39 PM
44 games is too many for our league. Fitting them all in with league cup and Scottish cup, and European games for clubs and blank weeks for national qualifiers.

16 team league, split after 30 fixtures with 7 games after the split would work for me.

So you'd still have an imbalance of home and away games, which is wrong.

I liked the two divisions of twelve splitting into three of eight, but since that has been rejected I'd prefer to see a twenty team league with nineteen home games and nineteen away.

greenginger
08-11-2014, 05:08 PM
So you'd still have an imbalance of home and away games, which is wrong.

I liked the two divisions of twelve splitting into three of eight, but since that has been rejected I'd prefer to see a twenty team league with nineteen home games and nineteen away.

We could have that anyway with the present system. After 33 games 6 teams have played 17 home games and 6 teams have played 17 away games.

If the 6 teams who have played the 17 home games end up in the same half there is going to be an imbalance anyway.

Specify the post split fixtures before the season starts and everyone will know where they stand.

lord bunberry
08-11-2014, 05:24 PM
Yeh 44 is a lot I guess

Do they not play 44 games in the championship down south? They also have 2 cup competition's, European matches aren't an issue for all bar Celtic most years.

NAE NOOKIE
08-11-2014, 05:37 PM
Do they not play 44 games in the championship down south? They also have 2 cup competition's, European matches aren't an issue for all bar Celtic most years.

They do indeed .... the only problem for us is the small squads most clubs carry.

lord bunberry
08-11-2014, 07:07 PM
They do indeed .... the only problem for us is the small squads most clubs carry.

I seem to remember before we had the split that we played 44 games, I remember the old firm complaining that it was harming their chances in Europe, but they've not really improved since the games were cut.

Eyrie
08-11-2014, 10:40 PM
We could have that anyway with the present system. After 33 games 6 teams have played 17 home games and 6 teams have played 17 away games.

If the 6 teams who have played the 17 home games end up in the same half there is going to be an imbalance anyway.

Specify the post split fixtures before the season starts and everyone will know where they stand.

Just because that happens under the current set up doesn't mean it has to continue under any new league structure. Any change should be seen as an opportunity to improve matters in all areas, including ensuring an even split of home and away games.

The only way to specify which teams get the extra home game before the season starts would be to use eventual league placings, which could mean that one team has an extra home game for three or four years running. Even the current approach is an improvement on that.

Steve-O
09-11-2014, 02:34 AM
In the 80s / 90s there were 44 games.

Lower leagues in England play 45 games too I think?

It's quite a lot but don't know why it can't be done.

WestCoastHibby
09-11-2014, 03:10 AM
We are where we are because we were ***** last year. We can get back to the top tier by continuing to improve as we have been doing recently and winning games.
Is as simple as that for me. I don't want the goal posts moved any time soon.

familyman
09-11-2014, 09:35 AM
Then we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Even if Hibs don't get promoted this season, I don't want the leagues re-arranged to get us back into the top tier.


I agree with that. negative comments on the site I believe are /should be all designed to push the team to greater heights, as we must get back up fairly and not play games with the league rules re structure however frustrating that is etc...We have little credibility after last seasons nonsense and unprofessional attitude and inept apologies(yet again). While we still have several issues and areas of concern we are behind the team as always...but we need to push harder but do it in a sporting way only.Let's get behind Alan S as much as we can..he has a big job there and no doubt a few large hurdles still to jump.I would rather wait another year if we have too(horrible thought though) than in effect cheat our way back.

greenginger
09-11-2014, 10:10 AM
If the majority of clubs vote for a change in the league structure ( something every fan survey has been in favour of ) and we benefit by finishing in the top 4 and getting promoted , how can that be considered cheating.

It won't be Hibs proposing any changes, we don't even have a rep. on the SPFL management committee.

Never look gift horses .... etc. :greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
09-11-2014, 12:10 PM
I agree with that. negative comments on the site I believe are /should be all designed to push the team to greater heights, as we must get back up fairly and not play games with the league rules re structure however frustrating that is etc...We have little credibility after last seasons nonsense and unprofessional attitude and inept apologies(yet again). While we still have several issues and areas of concern we are behind the team as always...but we need to push harder but do it in a sporting way only.Let's get behind Alan S as much as we can..he has a big job there and no doubt a few large hurdles still to jump.I would rather wait another year if we have too(horrible thought though) than in effect cheat our way back.

If a long hoped for league reconstruction benefits Hibs and it does so because we finished high enough up in the league to be one of the 'expansion' clubs then that will be fortuitous for us.

To call it "cheating" is quite frankly a load of bollox.

Smartie
09-11-2014, 04:37 PM
All well and good but please explain why folk as Marinello59 rightly suggests were howling their outrage at Rangers and squealing about "Sporting Integrity" and joined in giving the Govan club a right good kicking yet got their hankies out to wipe away their tears of sympathy and bought into the myths being peddled from Tynecastle (aided by the same compliant MSM that had just finished booting Rangers) about 'poor wee Hearts, the brave young laddies'. A big bad Lithuanian did it and ran away. Aren't they wonderful, they're paying the Living Wage with no mention of a load of burned creditors and debts that dwarf those of Rangers.

Someone please explain that to me because I think Sporting Integrity got up and left a long time ago.

The Rangers and Hearts situations were very different.

Rangers ceased to exist and it would have been wrong to parachute a new club straight back into the top flight. I also think that it would hve been a bit harsh for a club with so many fans to have been given no opportunity to re-establish themselves altogether. What resulted was a fair compromise imo. They do a few season in the lower leagues, spread a bit of wealth around before getting back up eventually knowing that they shouldn't be so reckless with their finances, because if they do...... Also their fans have to be taunted for eternity as to whether or not they are the same club. A decent outcome imo.

As for the Hearts, well by the letter of the law all they ever did was go into administration, they got docked their 15 points and that helped relegate them. They were dealt with ridiculously lightly for all the times they failed to pay their players in the lead up to that but there you go. They might have paid the price of this with the very existence of their club and it was only jamminess on their part that Lithuanian court proceedings went their way or Edinburgh may well have lost its paedophile tolerance zone.

Financial doping is a fairly new offence and, as pointed out elsewhere, we have been the biggest victims of those who have committed this new offence (also maybe St.Johnstone - they always seems to hover near the top of the old 1st division whilst teams like Dundee, Gretna, Livi etc hopped unfairly over them). The authorities have (hopefully) now come up with punishments and precedents on how to deal with these new offences. Hopefully now there are rigid rules in place to deal with those who transgress.

Anyone could do what Hearts did, but they'd have to be prepared to face the consequences if things didn't go their way when their day of reckoning came, and there is no guarantee that anyone else would get off as lightly as them.

"Sporting integrity" may have taken a bit of a doing from certain clubs and via the weaknesses of authorities in the past. It doesn't mean that we should give up on it altogether.

Nutmegged
10-11-2014, 08:26 AM
I've always been a fan of a 16 team top league but I possibly didn't think about the downsides of it, about 2 years ago when League Reconstruction felt like the only topic, Ihad this discussion on Twitter with AgentScotland - very informative and thought provoking, not your usual he said she said - anyway, he said a 16 team League would only work if we incorporated splits into it because 15 hoke games a Season simply wouldn't generate enough income for clubs who are already doing just enough to stay above water.

I think his belief was we'd all play each other twice, going to 30 games then plit the league into 4 lots of 4 in acending order taking us to 36 games with 18 home & away ties, top 4 playing for the title/Europe - second 4 playing for 5th spot which would be a Europa League Play-Off with the team finishing bottom of the top section.

I can't quite recall how the bottom two sections were introduced but I'm positive they were both done with relegation spots/Play-Offs in mind - every section would have a meaning or consequence, it was for Scottish Football anyway an out there plan but one I thought personally had so much potential

Nutmegged
10-11-2014, 08:42 AM
Here is the article, don't think its the original but he's included a Q&A in this to probably explain the format

http://insidescottishfootball2012.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/total-re-structuring-of-scottish-football-questions-answers/