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Peevemor
02-11-2014, 10:59 PM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/4893

Excellent initiative.

Jonnyboy
02-11-2014, 11:13 PM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/4893

Excellent initiative.

Outstanding :agree:

Sergey
02-11-2014, 11:16 PM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/4893

Excellent initiative.

It would be...but I'm against the funds raised from the auction going to the HfH charity, as it's been proven that donated funds are often spent building shelters and recovery centres rather than the money going direct to the soldiers.

It's not a charity I agree with.

Hibernia&Alba
02-11-2014, 11:29 PM
A century on. This is good to see.

Lucius Apuleius
03-11-2014, 08:28 AM
Excellent initiative and well done both clubs. Bit of sympathy with Sergey's comments as well. Heard rumours of wrongdoings at HfH but they were never substantiated as far as I am aware. Erskine would have been better IMO.

southern hibby
03-11-2014, 09:21 AM
Want to say that witnessing the work the HfH does,British Legion, White Ensign and numerous other military charities that we should be proud as a nation that we manage to raise the funds to help.

My nephew was killed I'n Jan 13 I'n a road traffic accident, his girlfriend was in a coma and couldnt look after their 5 week old and his girlfriends 6 year old.

I was given £250 towards the flight home from the Gulf. To help watch the children while my sister buried her son.The money was not for me per say, but to help out with a serviceman's family I'n the time of need.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for every member of the general public who put into these charities and help out service men and woman and their families I'n our time of need.

So as a veteran who once used the military charity can I say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so very very much.

GGTTH

Hibby Gav
03-11-2014, 10:02 AM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/4893

Excellent initiative.

Proud of the club !

ggtth

NAE NOOKIE
03-11-2014, 10:18 AM
A dignified and proportionate gesture by Hibs & Queen of the South.

jacomo
03-11-2014, 11:14 AM
Want to say that witnessing the work the HfH does,British Legion, White Ensign and numerous other military charities that we should be proud as a nation that we manage to raise the funds to help.

My nephew was killed I'n Jan 13 I'n a road traffic accident, his girlfriend was in a coma and couldnt look after their 5 week old and his girlfriends 6 year old.

I was given £250 towards the flight home from the Gulf. To help watch the children while my sister buried her son.The money was not for me per say, but to help out with a serviceman's family I'n the time of need.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for every member of the general public who put into these charities and help out service men and woman and their families I'n our time of need.

So as a veteran who once used the military charity can I say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so very very much.

GGTTH

No one is disputing the cause, but it's perfectly legitimate to ask questions about how specific charities spend the money they receive. HfH receive huge amounts of money, and I'm not particularly convinced by them either.

jacomo
03-11-2014, 11:15 AM
A dignified and proportionate gesture by Hibs & Queen of the South.

Did we clear this with Hearts first? :wink:

FranckSuzy
03-11-2014, 11:40 AM
Want to say that witnessing the work the HfH does,British Legion, White Ensign and numerous other military charities that we should be proud as a nation that we manage to raise the funds to help.

My nephew was killed I'n Jan 13 I'n a road traffic accident, his girlfriend was in a coma and couldnt look after their 5 week old and his girlfriends 6 year old.

I was given £250 towards the flight home from the Gulf. To help watch the children while my sister buried her son.The money was not for me per say, but to help out with a serviceman's family I'n the time of need.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for every member of the general public who put into these charities and help out service men and woman and their families I'n our time of need.

So as a veteran who once used the military charity can I say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so very very much.

GGTTH

Sorry to hear what happened to your family and thanks for telling us about the help you received.

Canongatehibs
03-11-2014, 11:45 AM
http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/4893

Excellent initiative.

Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 11:46 AM
Major McCrae's propaganda piece should be nowhere near a Hibs shirt.

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 11:55 AM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:


Major McCrae's propaganda piece should be nowhere near a Hibs shirt.



Oh dear.

southern hibby
03-11-2014, 11:56 AM
No one is disputing the cause, but it's perfectly legitimate to ask questions about how specific charities spend the money they receive. HfH receive huge amounts of money, and I'm not particularly convinced by them either.

That's perfectly fine, your untitled to your opinion and I respect that. However I am led to believe that HfH pay out vast amounts towards rehabilitation to servicemen and woman. Infact I believe they helped build several rehabilitation centres round the country and put vast amounts into the main military hospital I'n Birmingham that help with numerous casualties.

GGTTH

HUTCHYHIBBY
03-11-2014, 11:57 AM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

Quite surprised the thread made it into double figures before this pish reared its ugly head.

PatHead
03-11-2014, 12:04 PM
Was a supporters led initiative from Working Together, offers of tickets have also been made to RAF Club, Navy Club and Hibs Supporters Associations. If you were in the forces or know of someone please contact Tickets for Troops or enquire at the Legion if you are a member.

The Management at the Club have been great and John Miller from WT has put in a power of work to make this happen. Well done John

WeeRussell
03-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Quite surprised the thread made it into double figures before this pish reared its ugly head.

:agree:

Still doesn't make it any less embarrassing though.

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 12:17 PM
:agree:

Still doesn't make it any less embarrassing though.


The really sad thing is that it was inevitable that the Thread would take a turn for the worse.

The concept of keeping quiet if you having nothing nice to say seems to bypass some people.

FranckSuzy
03-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

What a load of pash. My brother served in the Scots Guards for 11 years, established an unofficial Hounslow HSC and is now the President of the Australian HSC. There are also serving forces (and ex) personnel who currently post on here.

FranckSuzy
03-11-2014, 12:21 PM
Major McCrae's propaganda piece should be nowhere near a Hibs shirt.

A line from a poem? Jeezo :rolleyes:

Beefster
03-11-2014, 12:23 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

If that doesn't qualify as trolling, someone needs to explain trolling to me again.

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 12:29 PM
A line from a poem? Jeezo :rolleyes:

So any poem would be acceptable, because "it's just a line from a poem?"

Argylehibby
03-11-2014, 12:35 PM
I have, thankfully, never been in the forces and had to put my life on the line for my country. What I do know though is if I had been in that situation I really couldn't care if the guy beside me was a Rangers fan, a hearts player or anyone else for that matter.

The club are making a fantastic gesture here to say a small thank-you to the people who have, and continue to, put their lives on the line for us. They have acknowledged the part their family play in it by extending the invite to them as well. They have invited QOS to be involved on the day too reinforcing the all in it together aspect.

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 12:42 PM
A solemn remembrance would be appropriate, this is not remembrance, it's the very opposite. Look at the flag they are holding "Support" not "remember", what has giving out tickets out to present day forces got to do with remembering? Absolutely nothing, if the club wishes to be a cheerleader for the military, blindly backing "our boys & girls" then at least be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with remembrance. Some people will clearly be happy to go along with that, but accept that many of us won't.

WeeRussell
03-11-2014, 12:51 PM
A solemn remembrance would be appropriate, this is not remembrance, it's the very opposite. Look at the flag they are holding "Support" not "remember", what has giving out tickets out to present day forces got to do with remembering? Absolutely nothing, if the club wishes to be a cheerleader for the military, blindly backing "our boys & girls" then at least be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with remembrance. Some people will clearly be happy to go along with that, but accept that many of us won't.

Your first attempt at attacking this was to have a go at them for using the line from a War Poem, which was from the first world war. You've now abandoned that and accused this of not being about anyone from the World wars and just about supporting current soldiers. I am sure if Hibs could hand out tickets to soldiers and their immediate families from WW1 and 2, they would... unfortunately not many of these heroes are around nowadays.

Nobody is asking you to pay for their tickets. What is the problem with making such a gesture towards current soldiers and their families on the same day as we pay tribute to those who fell for us, all those years ago. Bear in mind - these soldiers are ordinary people like you and I, many of them likely friends of people on here. Really don't get your issue.

"oncrack" indeed.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 12:55 PM
A solemn remembrance would be appropriate, this is not remembrance, it's the very opposite. Look at the flag they are holding "Support" not "remember", what has giving out tickets out to present day forces got to do with remembering? Absolutely nothing, if the club wishes to be a cheerleader for the military, blindly backing "our boys & girls" then at least be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with remembrance. Some people will clearly be happy to go along with that, but accept that many of us won't.

I don't see why anyone should be negative about either "supporting" or "remembering". As for your "cheerleader for the military" comment, I find it both pathetic and ignorant in the extreme.

Gatecrasher
03-11-2014, 12:57 PM
well done to both Hibs and QOS for this, hopefully those that get tickets have a nice day with their friends and family.

hibee_nation
03-11-2014, 01:02 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

Sorry i just see your post as pathetic.

Argylehibby
03-11-2014, 01:02 PM
A solemn remembrance would be appropriate, this is not remembrance, it's the very opposite. Look at the flag they are holding "Support" not "remember", what has giving out tickets out to present day forces got to do with remembering? Absolutely nothing, if the club wishes to be a cheerleader for the military, blindly backing "our boys & girls" then at least be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with remembrance. Some people will clearly be happy to go along with that, but accept that many of us won't.

A solumn Remembrance of those who have fallen and a thank-you to those who survived and / or still serve seems appropriate and that is what the club are doing. The flag is from one of the organisations who has helped distribute the tickets. Seems that you are just looking for faults that are not there for some reason.

marinello59
03-11-2014, 01:04 PM
Well done Hibs. They have got this one right.

Sergey
03-11-2014, 01:16 PM
No one is disputing the cause, but it's perfectly legitimate to ask questions about how specific charities spend the money they receive. HfH receive huge amounts of money, and I'm not particularly convinced by them either.


That's perfectly fine, your untitled to your opinion and I respect that. However I am led to believe that HfH pay out vast amounts towards rehabilitation to servicemen and woman. Infact I believe they helped build several rehabilitation centres round the country and put vast amounts into the main military hospital I'n Birmingham that help with numerous casualties.

GGTTH

The bit in bold is exactly the point that jacomoseven and I are questioning - why should it be charitable funds donated by the public that are spent on crisis centres and hospitals. Surely that's in the MoD's remit. No?

It's even more questionable if you look at the conflicts that the soldiers have been injured in.

FranckSuzy
03-11-2014, 01:30 PM
So any poem would be acceptable, because "it's just a line from a poem?"

Tell you what, see the next time you have cause to seek assistance from the forces, police, fire brigade, ambulance service, etc, etc, mind and ask them which team they support. Then they can prioritise who they tend to first.

Gatecrasher
03-11-2014, 01:44 PM
The bit in bold is exactly the point that jacomoseven and I are questioning - why should it be charitable funds donated by the public that are spent on crisis centres and hospitals. Surely that's in the MoD's remit. No?

It's even more questionable if you look at the conflicts that the soldiers have been injured in.

Could you not say that about almost every charity in existance? Help the Homeless, children in need etc you could say shouldn't the government be dealing with that. Unfortunately there is only limited resources and money that the Government can provide.

Anyway this goes beyond anything Hibs related so probably best left for another thread.

Onceinawhile
03-11-2014, 01:49 PM
I see no problem in commemorating those who fought in the first two world wars, but I don't understand why current serving members of the forces get free tickets.

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 01:53 PM
Tell you what, see the next time you have cause to seek assistance from the forces, police, fire brigade, ambulance service, etc, etc, mind and ask them which team they support. Then they can prioritise who they tend to first.

Why?

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 01:54 PM
I don't see why anyone should be negative about either "supporting" or "remembering". As for your "cheerleader for the military" comment, I find it both pathetic and ignorant in the extreme.

Ah right, of course we should all fall in line & support, if we don't we need to be called names.

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 01:58 PM
Your first attempt at attacking this was to have a go at them for using the line from a War Poem, which was from the first world war. You've now abandoned that and accused this of not being about anyone from the World wars and just about supporting current soldiers. I am sure if Hibs could hand out tickets to soldiers and their immediate families from WW1 and 2, they would... unfortunately not many of these heroes are around nowadays.

Nobody is asking you to pay for their tickets. What is the problem with making such a gesture towards current soldiers and their families on the same day as we pay tribute to those who fell for us, all those years ago. Bear in mind - these soldiers are ordinary people like you and I, many of them likely friends of people on here. Really don't get your issue.

"oncrack" indeed.

Nothing abandoned, it is a matter of fact that this poem has been used as recruitment propaganda.

What is wrong is that remembrance & support for present day military adventures have become inseparable, which is in my view wrong.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 02:03 PM
Ah right, of course we should all fall in line & support, if we don't we need to be called names.

Was your cheerleader comment not name calling?

Onceinawhile
03-11-2014, 02:03 PM
Nothing abandoned, it is a matter of fact that this poem has been used as recruitment propaganda.

What is wrong is that remembrance & support for present day military adventures have become inseparable, which is in my view wrong.

Completely agree with your second point.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 02:11 PM
Completely agree with your second point.

So you're either unable or unwilling to distinguish between military intervention and individual servicemen/women? :confused:

SaulGoodman
03-11-2014, 02:22 PM
I hate this site sometimes.

Keith_M
03-11-2014, 02:24 PM
I hate this site sometimes.


:agree:

lyonhibs
03-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Well this is all very tiresomely predictable

southern hibby
03-11-2014, 02:45 PM
The bit in bold is exactly the point that jacomoseven and I are questioning - why should it be charitable funds donated by the public that are spent on crisis centres and hospitals. Surely that's in the MoD's remit. No?

It's even more questionable if you look at the conflicts that the soldiers have been injured in.

S, no one is asking you to give anything to any charity. That's the point of the charity it's up to the individual to give to whichever charity they choose too. If these charities are well supported and they want to give the money collected to help with rehabilitation surely if you object or find it rather unsavoury then you will give your hard earned pennies to a charity you do agree with.

GGTTH

khib70
03-11-2014, 02:51 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:
Here we go - the Charge of the Celtic-Lite Brigade. Give it a rest. It's got sweet FA to do with Rangers.

proud_and_green
03-11-2014, 02:52 PM
Nothing abandoned, it is a matter of fact that this poem has been used as recruitment propaganda.

What is wrong is that remembrance & support for present day military adventures have become inseparable, which is in my view wrong.

Disagree entirely with both your points.

That something has been used for one purpose does not preclude it beig used for another.

I have to say that i have not seen any blurring of appreciation for soldiers doing a difficult job, remembrance and political support for the mission. These are quite different and you can support the first two without agreeing with the third! Soldiers do not decide where they go to work, that is the job of the government as voted in by the citizens of the country.

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 02:54 PM
Was your cheerleader comment not name calling?

Cheerleading; leading the cheers, supporting, not an insult but a description of behaviour.

You or anyone else is perfectly entitled to hold the military in the highest of esteem if you wish, nobody has questioned that, but I resent my football club- it belongs as much to me as it does to you- being used as a vehicle for this. When such displays are disguised as 'remembrance' its even worse, quite offensive to the memory of the fallen IMO, ordinary people as has been said, maybe some of them would resent the way their memory has been exploited.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 02:56 PM
Cheerleading; leading the cheers, supporting, not an insult but a description of behaviour.

You or anyone else is perfectly entitled to hold the military in the highest of esteem if you wish, nobody has questioned that, but I resent my football club- it belongs as much to me as it does to you- being used as a vehicle for this. When such displays are disguised as 'remembrance' its even worse, quite offensive to the memory of the fallen IMO, ordinary people as has been said, maybe some of them would resent the way their memory has been exploited.


You're barking mate!

Pete
03-11-2014, 02:58 PM
Fantastic gesture from a truly inclusive football club :thumbsup:

Nakedmanoncrack
03-11-2014, 02:59 PM
You're barking mate!

Quality riposte.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 03:04 PM
Quality riposte.

At least we agree on something.

harpo
03-11-2014, 03:12 PM
The chain reaction of evil--wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

~Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry Hibs but I cant support your support for illegal wars.

I will commemorate those who have died in the WW1 and other wars but I cant support an army that takes part in illegal wars which sees poor people fighting poor people only to make the rich richer.

marinello59
03-11-2014, 03:16 PM
The chain reaction of evil--wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

~Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry Hibs but I cant support your support for illegal wars.

They haven't supported illegal wars. :confused:

McIntosh
03-11-2014, 03:19 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

Pete
03-11-2014, 03:22 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

I think that's all that needs to be said.

harpo
03-11-2014, 03:22 PM
They haven't supported illegal wars. :confused:

The flag clearly states supporting with pride.

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 03:22 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.
:top marks

Peevemor
03-11-2014, 03:23 PM
The flag clearly states supporting with pride.

Supporting illegal wars with pride?

marinello59
03-11-2014, 03:26 PM
The flag clearly states supporting with pride.

It doesn't say anything about illegal wars does it? :confused:

Sergey
03-11-2014, 03:30 PM
Here's a link to an interesting and informative article that was published in 2012, and I'd also draw your attention to the comments at the bottom.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2186162/Are-cosy-links-Help-Heroes-MoD-squeezing-charities-help-injured-servicemen.html

McIntosh
03-11-2014, 03:36 PM
Here's a link to an interesting and informative article that was published in 2012, and I'd also draw your attention to the comments at the bottom.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2186162/Are-cosy-links-Help-Heroes-MoD-squeezing-charities-help-injured-servicemen.html After rereading your previous posts it is fair to say that you in principle not against this type of initiative but this charity?

Pretty Boy
03-11-2014, 03:42 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

Says it all really.

Remembering and support the individual is completwly different from supporting the conflict or the system.

CraigHibee
03-11-2014, 03:43 PM
nice touch by the club :aok:

greengnome
03-11-2014, 03:50 PM
Well done to both clubs.... Being an ex squaddie, I appreciate gestures like this.

:thumbsup::flag:

McIntosh
03-11-2014, 03:52 PM
I will not name the person I am going to talk about out of respect and not to distress any member of his family.

In 1983 when I left school the country was in the grip of a terrible recession made worse by the policies of the then Government. I was fortunate that I got a job a number my school friends had very limited opportunities. The ones that were available included joining the Army. I always remember that being a squaddie was seen as a short term move until things got better. Those that joined up were in dread of a tour in Northern Ireland they were teenagers but they took the view that they needed to get their head down and get through it.

Unfortunately, he was killed on his first tour and was buried in his hibs top and scarf at the cemetery at Easter Road. There really is an irony there. He was a victim, he was one of our people on so many different levels. As I said earlier, we have a real duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

Lucius Apuleius
03-11-2014, 04:23 PM
Nobody ever remembers the merchant seamen who died. Would be nice to see them included somewhere. Those of us who served in war zones are entitled to wear medals and are given veteran badges by the MOD but alas, then forgotten about. This is not a dig at a fantastic initiative.

CropleyWasGod
03-11-2014, 04:30 PM
Nobody ever remembers the merchant seamen who died. Would be nice to see them included somewhere. Those of us who served in east zones are entitled to wear medals and are given veteran badges by the MOD but alas, then forgotten about. This is not a dig at a fantastic initiative.

I remember them. :agree:

My Granda was in the Merchant Navy during WW2, and thankfully came through it. I still can't hear the Sailors' Hymn without tearing up.

Respect.

Lucius Apuleius
03-11-2014, 04:34 PM
I remember them. :agree:

My Granda was in the Merchant Navy during WW2, and thankfully came through it. I still can't hear the Sailors' Hymn without tearing up.

Respect.

Thanks Crops, always the forgotten mob. We never had guns to fight back. 😃

Me too mate.

Blessed are those who go down to the SEA in ships

Gerard
03-11-2014, 05:54 PM
:top marks

:top marks:top marks:top marks

JimBHibees
03-11-2014, 05:55 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

Nail on head, ordinary but hugely brave people doing extraordinary things. The least we as a country should do is look after them if they get severely injured in conflict. A wonderful initiative.

Sir David Gray
03-11-2014, 07:17 PM
Well I, for one, wholeheartedly support the efforts of Hibs and QOS on this.

It's a good initiative and it will hopefully raise a decent amount of money for a worthy cause.

Jonnyboy
03-11-2014, 07:19 PM
The chain reaction of evil--wars producing more wars -- must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

~Martin Luther King, Jr

Sorry Hibs but I cant support your support for illegal wars.

I will commemorate those who have died in the WW1 and other wars but I cant support an army that takes part in illegal wars which sees poor people fighting poor people only to make the rich richer.

The war may have been illegal but in what way could those that served in it refuse to do so? It seems to me that some in this thread are failing to see what the charity is set up to do.

21.05.2016
03-11-2014, 07:21 PM
Brilliant initiative. Good to see us doing our bit to show our respect and our gratitute to these brave men and women.


Lest we forget x

Hibernia&Alba
03-11-2014, 07:26 PM
The war may have been illegal but in what way could those that served in it refuse to do so? It seems to me that some in this thread are failing to see what the charity is set up to do.

Agreed. I didn't support the war in Iraq either, but the blame for it lies in Washington and London, amongst people who didn't have to put their own lives on the line. I think nakedman makes a perfectly correct point in relation to opposition to the war being misrepresented by Tory Bliar and his government as treason in order to silence criticism, but again that isn't the issue here.

McD
03-11-2014, 07:28 PM
Some on here need to show an ounce of compassion and really have to stop their grand rhetoric. They need to forget their political position for one moment and remember that we are dealing with someone's son, sister or brother. Your average solider is not political just like your average punter. Soldiers are doing a job, a very dangerous job at that. If you are going to blame anyone blame politicians but soldiers are as much victims as anyone. We have a duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.


Eloquently put.

it is possible and not hypocritical to show appreciation, recognition, and remembrance for the men and women who stand a post and lay their lives on the line for each of us, whilst at the same time not supporting the wars they may have been ordered to participate in.

Hibernia&Alba
03-11-2014, 07:30 PM
Eloquently put.

it is possible and not hypocritical to show appreciation, recognition, and remembrance for the men and women who stand a post and lay their lives on the line for each of us, whilst at the same time not supporting the wars they may have been ordered to participate in.

Exactly.

Glorious St Pat
03-11-2014, 07:34 PM
Your first attempt at attacking this was to have a go at them for using the line from a War Poem, which was from the first world war. You've now abandoned that and accused this of not being about anyone from the World wars and just about supporting current soldiers. I am sure if Hibs could hand out tickets to soldiers and their immediate families from WW1 and 2, they would... unfortunately not many of these heroes are around nowadays.

Nobody is asking you to pay for their tickets. What is the problem with making such a gesture towards current soldiers and their families on the same day as we pay tribute to those who fell for us, all those years ago. Bear in mind - these soldiers are ordinary people like you and I, many of them likely friends of people on here. Really don't get your issue.

"oncrack" indeed.

Perhaps it is because there are a number of us who feel uneasy at our boys being sacrificed in illegal and unjust wars. It's almost like poppy fascism. Can I wear a white poppy instead?

Gerard
03-11-2014, 07:38 PM
At this time we are paying respect to the falllen of the 'Great War', 1914-18. There are no living combatitants who served in this war. I wish that when I was at school that more attention had been placed on teaching the things that took place in that war. In 2045 we will pay our respects the the fallen of the second war, as that will also be 100 years after its conclusion. The 'Great War' was a war that touched the lives of every family in this country. Football fans from every club served in the armed forces and many would make the ultimate scarifice and may others would return with life changing injuries. Our Armed forces are still being asked to make the ultimate sacrifice and many return with life changing injuries. I think our club is acting in a just way to show our gratitude of what our armed forces do for us the civilian population in war and also in peace when they can be called to serve the civivilan population when the need arises.

Sergey
03-11-2014, 07:51 PM
After rereading your previous posts it is fair to say that you in principle not against this type of initiative but this charity?

It's HfH that I'm against.

FWIW - I travel to Ypres a couple of times a year (previously on business, now simply as a tourist) - I've spent many a night at the Menin Gate with my family to witness the last post. As a keen road cyclist, I’ve also cycled around the many Commonwealth graves in Flanders - indeed,I even helped to locate the grandfathers grave of another poster on this very forum (which we found in Calais).I've spent holidays in Amiens touring the battlefields of the Somme and I still travel to France and Belgium on a regular basis.

Purely coincidentally, I also viewed the poppies around the Tower of London last week and I also shook the hand of an elderly Chelsea Pensioner. Their scarlet coat isn’t just comfortable, warm, weatherproof and elegant – it’s a wearable gift voucher. Nobody seen in it has ever paid for their own drink. It effortlessly provides free taxis and will carry its inhabitant to the head of any queue. And, regardless of your previous position in life, it will garner unlimited love and respect.

What grates is the fact that other charities are clearly losing out to HfH.I've absolutely no qualms popping a couple of quid in a tin to buy a poppy, or standing a round of drinks for a few Chelsea Pensioners or visiting Canadians in Northern Belgium – but other charities are being compromised.

And in case some you missed my link…here it is again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2186162/Are-cosy-links-Help-Heroes-MoD-squeezing-charities-help-injured-servicemen.html

marinello59
03-11-2014, 07:57 PM
Perhaps it is because there are a number of us who feel uneasy at our boys being sacrificed in illegal and unjust wars. It's almost like poppy fascism. Can I wear a white poppy instead?

If you think our boys are being sacrificed then you'll be glad that the club is doing something to raise funds to help them. Surely you can differentiate between the politicians and the guys who we ask to do what the Governments we elect tell them to do?
Nobody is stopping you wearing a white poppy are they? I'll be wearing the normal red one because I know and like where the funds are going to but I understand why others would wear the white version. That's the joys of a free country. :aok:

marinello59
03-11-2014, 08:03 PM
It's HfH that I'm against.

FWIW - I travel to Ypres a couple of times a year (previously on business, now simply as a tourist) - I've spent many a night at the Menin Gate with my family to witness the last post. As a keen road cyclist, I’ve also cycled around the many Commonwealth graves in Flanders - indeed,I even helped to locate the grandfathers grave of another poster on this very forum (which we found in Calais).I've spent holidays in Amiens touring the battlefields of the Somme and I still travel to France and Belgium on a regular basis.

Purely coincidentally, I also viewed the poppies around the Tower of London last week and I also shook the hand of an elderly Chelsea Pensioner. Their scarlet coat isn’t just comfortable, warm, weatherproof and elegant – it’s a wearable gift voucher. Nobody seen in it has ever paid for their own drink. It effortlessly provides free taxis and will carry its inhabitant to the head of any queue. And, regardless of your previous position in life, it will garner unlimited love and respect.

What grates is the fact that other charities are clearly losing out to HfH.I've absolutely no qualms popping a couple of quid in a tin to buy a poppy, or standing a round of drinks for a few Chelsea Pensioners or visiting Canadians in Northern Belgium – but other charities are being compromised.

And in case some you missed my link…here it is again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2186162/Are-cosy-links-Help-Heroes-MoD-squeezing-charities-help-injured-servicemen.html

I get the point you are making here and I do have some sympathy for other charities who are being squeezed out. It's a difficult one. The problem is that the traditional military covenant has been ignored and broken by the last few Governments. Now instead of the Government looking after men and women who have been damaged by their service it's down to ''society as a whole'' and charities.
My view is that it's not HfH that is depriving the other charities, it's the Government who should be funding a lot of thing these charities do. I don't like that but I'll still support the charities.

ekhibee
03-11-2014, 08:11 PM
As an ex-serviceman myself I think it's important to remember that this initiative is supporting troops, the vast majority of them ordinary men and women like you and me. It is most certainly not about supporting the government, whichever one's in power. If anything, it's pointing out the governments shortcomings in not providing the necessary funds for rehab centres, etc. I honestly didn't think there would be such a debate about this topic, how truely naive I am, even now.

Capt Mainwaring
03-11-2014, 08:16 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

Deary me - how sad you are!

Back on topic - this is a great initiative from Hibs. Top marks

Bostonhibby
03-11-2014, 08:21 PM
I will not name the person I am going to talk about out of respect and not to distress any member of his family.

In 1983 when I left school the country was in the grip of a terrible recession made worse by the policies of the then Government. I was fortunate that I got a job a number my school friends had very limited opportunities. The ones that were available included joining the Army. I always remember that being a squaddie was seen as a short term move until things got better. Those that joined up were in dread of a tour in Northern Ireland they were teenagers but they took the view that they needed to get their head down and get through it.

Unfortunately, he was killed on his first tour and was buried in his hibs top and scarf at the cemetery at Easter Road. There really is an irony there. He was a victim, he was one of our people on so many different levels. As I said earlier, we have a real duty to look after our people, particularly when they have been sent on misadventures.

:top marks This, and your other posts on this thread - I do not always support some of our military interventions, some I do, that is often influenced by peoples individual prejudices, beliefs or goals however on every occasion I 100% support those who are out their carrying out the will of the government we elect and can protest about.

If anything we should recognise their courage and professionalism in doing as they are ordered when perhaps they personally might not agree with everything they are being asked to do either. Having a go about it is a luxury they don't have, and the rest of us do as a result of being the kind of democracy that our military defend.

Sir David Gray
03-11-2014, 08:41 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

I see that a few people have completely dismissed your post here, however I think it's important that when someone makes a point which is so far off the mark as you are with the point you've made here that these points are challenged.

Can you please explain yourself in terms of what you mean by this ridiculous statement?

The fact that fans of Rangers shamefully exploit the Armed Forces for their own bigoted reasons is not the fault of the many thousands of ordinary men and women who represent this country with the utmost bravery and dignity. They put themselves on the line and when they go to war, they leave their friends and families behind and have absolutely no idea if that's the last time they'll ever see them.

I cannot begin to imagine what that must feel like.

This country would be a lot worse off if we didn't have our Armed Forces and I don't think it's much to ask that we think about them for a couple of weeks every year, around the anniversary of Armistice Day.

To dismiss these people as being just a buch of Rangers fans is so wrong, it actually beggars belief.

FranckSuzy
03-11-2014, 09:51 PM
Perhaps it is because there are a number of us who feel uneasy at our boys being sacrificed in illegal and unjust wars. It's almost like poppy fascism. Can I wear a white poppy instead?

Protest at the governments that decide the course of action then and don't aim your unease at the guys who are just serving their country by doing their job.

Funnily enough, I'm sure the guys who serve couldn't give a toss who you are or what your beliefs are if they are called upon to assist.

Vini1875
04-11-2014, 06:39 AM
Don't think the club should be involved with this at all.

Brizo
04-11-2014, 07:36 AM
Reading the link the primary purpose is remembering the 100th anniversary of the outbreak of WW1 while a secondary spin off is that the shirts worn by the players will be auctioned off with proceeds going to H4H.

With regard to the primary purpose i think its right for the club to take part in this initiative. Anyone with a problem with it should really read their copy of Lugton 2 to see the ultimate sacrifice so many Hibs players and fans paid in WW1. Quite simply its the decent and respectful thing to do.

Regarding H4H i don't know enough about their operation to know how much goes into admin and how much goes to the deserving people. The clue is of course that its a charity auction and if people have concerns they don't need to bid. Maybe they can make a donation to another ex serviceman charity if they feel it will allocate more of the monies received direct to those who need it.

Joe's ice cream
04-11-2014, 08:55 AM
http://www.qosfc.com/new_newsview.aspx?newsid=2551

Heard about this as I stay down in Dumfries , nice touch from Hibs.
Also never realised that QOTS came about as an amalgamation of three clubs as the article points out.

Keith_M
04-11-2014, 08:55 AM
Don't think the club should be involved with this at all.


Why?

CB_NO3
04-11-2014, 11:51 AM
If this money contributed to the innocent civilians of Iraq, Afghanistan and the tens of thousands of others that lost limbs etc to the hands of the British Army over the last 100 years I would consider a donation.

If I lost a body part at work, and was medically retired I doubt I would get thousands of pounds in donations. Learning and training to kill does not make you a hero IMO.

I do have respect for the people of WW1 and WW2. They had no choice and they did sacrifice their lives for the cause without taking a wage.

Ill continue to donate to save the children. They kids in Syria and Africa 'really' need it.

Hibernia&Alba
04-11-2014, 12:25 PM
If this money contributed to the innocent civilians of Iraq, Afghanistan and the tens of thousands of others that lost limbs etc to the hands of the British Army over the last 100 years I would consider a donation.

If I lost a body part at work, and was medically retired I doubt I would get thousands of pounds in donations. Learning and training to kill does not make you a hero IMO.

I do have respect for the people of WW1 and WW2. They had no choice and they did sacrifice their lives for the cause without taking a wage.

Ill continue to donate to save the children. They kids in Syria and Africa 'really' need it.

I understand your pint of view, CB, really I do. It's always the innocent who suffer most in any war: the civilians caught in the middle, the children. Iraq is a classic example. Nobody seems to know exactly how many hundreds of thousands have died since the invasion of 2003. But we must also remember that the armed forces who were sent there were lied to just as much as we were. They were given the same spurious justification for the action, but, for them it was even worse, as they were asked to give their lives for those lies. They didn't go there to kill civilians, nor to create the conditions for the sectarian bloodbath that has since transpired. The whole escapade has been a disaster, but in countless cases the troops sent there were victims as much as anybody, just like in other such crazy ventures of the past e.g. Vietnam.

FranckSuzy
04-11-2014, 12:55 PM
Have to say that whilst it's a free country, some of the opinions expressed on here are, IMHO, disrespectful to those who either have or are currently serving their country. Therefore, maybe the thread would be better closed..?

khib70
04-11-2014, 01:10 PM
Have to say that whilst it's a free country, some of the opinions expressed on here are, IMHO, disrespectful to those who either have or are currently serving their country. Therefore, maybe the thread would be better closed..?
As an ex-serviceman I totally agree with you up until the last sentence. Many of those who fell died to protect our right to live in a society where diverse opinions exist. There are several posters here who object to the remembrance event and make an articulate (if IMO misguided) case for their position. There are others who just spout sloganising, disrespectful pish about "Rangers fans", and we need the thread to be able to challenge their simplistic weekend-rebel polemic.

I recommend everyone read McIntosh's posts on this thread for an articulate and compassionate view on how we can support remembrance without glorifying warfare.

FranckSuzy
04-11-2014, 01:11 PM
As an ex-serviceman I totally agree with you up until the last sentence. Many of those who fell died to protect our right to live in a society where diverse opinions exist. There are several posters here who object to the remembrance event and make an articulate (if IMO misguided) case for their position. There are others who just spout sloganising, disrespectful pish about "Rangers fans", and we need the thread to be able to challenge their simplistic weekend-rebel polemic.

I recommend everyone read McIntosh's posts on this thread for an articulate and compassionate view on how we can support remembrance without glorifying warfare.

:aok:

Turkish Green
04-11-2014, 01:21 PM
What grates is the fact that other charities are clearly losing out to HfH.I've absolutely no qualms popping a couple of quid in a tin to buy a poppy, or standing a round of drinks for a few Chelsea Pensioners or visiting Canadians in Northern Belgium – but other charities are being compromised.

And in case some you missed my link…here it is again.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2186162/Are-cosy-links-Help-Heroes-MoD-squeezing-charities-help-injured-servicemen.html

Remembrance Day is just that a day to remember; to remember all those that were killed in service of our country. The political whys and the wherefores are not something for argument here.

What Hibs and QoS are doing is a good thing.

I give to a handful of charities by direct debit every month, however, I checked beforehand that the money I give goes (in the most part) to the needy and not the management. I agree with Sergey that many charities are run as a profit centre to the benefit of those that manage it rather than for those they are meant to help.

Wighty76
04-11-2014, 01:41 PM
What a load of pash. My brother served in the Scots Guards for 11 years, established an unofficial Hounslow HSC and is now the President of the Australian HSC. There are also serving forces (and ex) personnel who currently post on here.

Suzy I spent a year attached to the Scots Guards when they were based in Munster. Good lads.

No no many hibbies though.

Hibrandenburg
04-11-2014, 03:28 PM
People need to stop blaming soldiers for the mistakes of politicians.

Andy74
04-11-2014, 03:50 PM
People need to stop blaming soldiers for the mistakes of politicians.

We should also stop giving them special status in my opinion. These days it's a job they choose to do and for the most part is no more dangerous than many other professions.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 03:58 PM
We should also stop giving them special status in my opinion. These days it's a job they choose to do and for the most part is no more dangerous than many other professions.

If this thread was about giving Nurses or Firemen a bit of deserved recognition for doing a tough job then there would be nothing but praise handed out.
Soldiers? An excuse for some to air their own prejudices, political agendas and even belittle what they do. Sometimes this place can be pretty mean spirited.

Andy74
04-11-2014, 04:16 PM
If this thread was about giving Nurses or Firemen a bit of deserved recognition for doing a tough job then there would be nothing but praise handed out.
Soldiers? An excuse for some to air their own prejudices, political agendas and even belittle what they do. Sometimes this place can be pretty mean spirited.

I feel much about the same as nurses and firemen! All jobs that people choose to do same as most people.

Will no one think of us poor bank workers?

Bishop Hibee
04-11-2014, 04:36 PM
I would have preferred it if the club had quietly had a bucket collection outside the ground without any fuss and a minutes SILENCE, not applause. Joining the race to be seen to be supporting the UK armed forces in the most up-front fashion is a bit sad. It's the modern way to show off about ones charitable giving I suppose. The generation I knew who served in WW1 and WW2 would have been embarrassed about the fuss.

Hibrandenburg
04-11-2014, 04:48 PM
I feel much about the same as nurses and firemen! All jobs that people choose to do same as most people.

Will no one think of us poor bank workers?

Ok I'll amend my statement. People need to stop blaming soldiers for the mistakes of politicians and bankers.

--------
04-11-2014, 04:50 PM
Major McCrae's propaganda piece should be nowhere near a Hibs shirt.

A poem written by a Canadian officer in memory of a friend and comrade killed in action in 1915?

I would say that you comment is more politically charged than McCrae's poem.

H18Y GW
04-11-2014, 05:08 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:


Do you see Sellick fans as IRA terrorists ?? id guess that this would be a higher percentage than Huns as heroes :aok:

H18Y GW
04-11-2014, 05:09 PM
A poem written by a Canadian officer in memory of a friend and comrade killed in action in 1915?

I would say that you comment is more politically charged than McCrae's poem.

The ignorance knows no bounds,your bang on

Lucius Apuleius
04-11-2014, 05:13 PM
I must admit to being extremely saddened by this thread.

Argylehibby
04-11-2014, 05:19 PM
I would have preferred it if the club had quietly had a bucket collection outside the ground without any fuss and a minutes SILENCE, not applause. Joining the race to be seen to be supporting the UK armed forces in the most up-front fashion is a bit sad. It's the modern way to show off about ones charitable giving I suppose. The generation I knew who served in WW1 and WW2 would have been embarrassed about the fuss.

So if there is a bucket collection and there is a minutes silence then your only objection is publicising the fact that the clubs are going to auction off the shirts for charity? It would be difficult to auction them without publicising it would it not? The shirts I would assume cannot be used again on the basis of the embroidered message (and probable poppy emblem) so is it not better to maximise their use by holding the auction? The choice of charity is another matter. Or is it the just the fact they are handing out free tickets as a small gesture to show their appreciation of the servicemen and woman that you disagree with? I don't believe that this is anything other than a genuine offer by both clubs to say thanks to the people who defend us, the offer is open to veterans too and I'm sure a number of them will be attending the game as guests of both clubs.

HUTCHYHIBBY
04-11-2014, 05:27 PM
I must admit to being extremely saddened by this thread.

The inevitability of it is worse in my mind. My heart sank when I first saw the thread, well done to both clubs from me though.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 05:31 PM
If this thread was about giving Nurses or Firemen a bit of deserved recognition for doing a tough job then there would be nothing but praise handed out.
Soldiers? An excuse for some to air their own prejudices, political agendas and even belittle what they do. Sometimes this place can be pretty mean spirited.


I think the point that this thread is NOT about nurses and fireman is precisely the point.

As a general rule, when it comes to charitable giving I tend to favour the victims of events over which they have no control - health related for example. Modern soldiers choose to be soldiers.

I do also worry about the US style jingoism that is increasingly being trumpeted around our armed forces, and I don't want the Uk to go down that militaristic road.

However I appreciate that for many (too many?) remembrance and jingoism about the armed forces have become inseparable. The Daily Mail is the fastest growing newspaper in Scotland apparently.

Add in the sense of one-upmanship that Hearts have created in this space, where it seems we are all competing to see who remembers most and best, and I dislike it and don't think we should be doing it. A minute's silence for the fallen used to suffice. Dignified and personal. Now we all have to PR it up to prove we 'support our boys'.

I also have a general belief that Hibs, as a broad church whose fans represent all political beliefs, religions etc, should really just focus on doing what we all Hibs fans do pay their hard-earned towards, and that's being a football team, pure and simple. Leave the charity, community work etc to individual fans to make their own choices that best reflect their own personal beliefs.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 05:35 PM
I think the point that this thread is NOT about nurses and fireman is precisely the point.

As a general rule, when it comes to charitable giving I tend to favour the victims of events over which they have no control - health related for example. Modern soldiers choose to be soldiers.

I do also worry about the US style jingoism that is increasingly being trumpeted around our armed forces, and I don't want the Uk to go down that militaristic road.

However I appreciate that for many (too many?) remembrance and jingoism about the armed forces have become inseparable. The Daily Mail is the fastest growing newspaper in Scotland apparently.

Add in the sense of one-upmanship that Hearts have created in this space, where it seems we are all competing to see who remembers most and best, and I dislike it and don't think we should be doing it. A minute's silence for the fallen used to suffice. Dignified and personal. Now we all have to PR it up to prove we 'support our boys'.

I also have a general belief that Hibs, as a broad church whose fans represent all political beliefs, religions etc, should really just focus on doing what we all Hibs fans do pay their hard-earned towards, and that's being a football team, pure and simple. Leave the charity, community work etc to individual fans to make their own choices that best reflect their own personal beliefs.

No, its not.
And the rest of your post just proves my point.

H18Y GW
04-11-2014, 05:41 PM
I think the point that this thread is NOT about nurses and fireman is precisely the point.

As a general rule, when it comes to charitable giving I tend to favour the victims of events over which they have no control - health related for example. Modern soldiers choose to be soldiers.

I do also worry about the US style jingoism that is increasingly being trumpeted around our armed forces, and I don't want the Uk to go down that militaristic road.

However I appreciate that for many (too many?) remembrance and jingoism about the armed forces have become inseparable. The Daily Mail is the fastest growing newspaper in Scotland apparently.

Add in the sense of one-upmanship that Hearts have created in this space, where it seems we are all competing to see who remembers most and best, and I dislike it and don't think we should be doing it. A minute's silence for the fallen used to suffice. Dignified and personal. Now we all have to PR it up to prove we 'support our boys'.

I also have a general belief that Hibs, as a broad church whose fans represent all political beliefs, religions etc, should really just focus on doing what we all Hibs fans do pay their hard-earned towards, and that's being a football team, pure and simple. Leave the charity, community work etc to individual fans to make their own choices that best reflect their own personal beliefs.


Because its been thought out,this is the worst post on this thread,this is a thread to thank whats going on v QotS ,why not start a thread called " off Hibs" and you can all spit bile and happy clap until its over...

Totally disgusted.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 05:47 PM
Because its been thought out,this is the worst post on this thread,this is a thread to thank whats going on v QotS ,why not start a thread called " off Hibs" and you can all spit bile and happy clap until its over...

Totally disgusted.

Well your post has clearly not been thought out, and yet I would still say that it is the worst contribution to the debate.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 05:52 PM
No, its not.
And the rest of your post just proves my point.

When there is a thread discussing a similar initiative for nurses and fireman, I suppose we will find out.

But the fact there isn't, which I think is the point the previous poster was trying to make.

CB_NO3
04-11-2014, 05:57 PM
I must admit to being extremely saddened by this thread.
Why?

jakeshibs
04-11-2014, 06:11 PM
If this thread was about giving Nurses or Firemen a bit of deserved recognition for doing a tough job then there would be nothing but praise handed out.
Soldiers? An excuse for some to air their own prejudices, political agendas and even belittle what they do. Sometimes this place can be pretty mean spirited.

I am sorry but you are wrong ! I have served in the Army and during my time I have also served as a fireman when they sacked It, they were on more money than me and only worked a 4 day week and could get another job, I have also stood in as a ambulance driver for them, a prison guard, and a fuel driver for the strikes, this was all to keep you in the life that you have become accustomed.

Soldiers do what you ask them to do, what their country asks them, we don't choose to leave our families for years, to do the jobs that we are asked we just get on with it.

The poppy and the act of remembrance Is not about todays Army but paying respect for the thousands that gave their lives for you! for your freedom, for your right to debate and speak freely. This is not about today but for the past. if is the charities you are concerned about, then am ashamed for you.

God bless the Hibs!

jakeshibs
04-11-2014, 06:19 PM
Well done to both clubs.... Being an ex squaddie, I appreciate gestures like this.

:thumbsup::flag:

me too well said that MAN, and I am proud if Hibs for doing this!!

Hibernia&Alba
04-11-2014, 06:20 PM
I am sorry but you are wrong ! I have served in the Army and during my time I have also served as a fireman when they sacked It, they were on more money than me and only worked a 4 day week and could get another job, I have also stood in as a ambulance driver for them, a prison guard, and a fuel driver for the strikes, this was all to keep you in the life that you have become accustomed.

Soldiers do what you ask them to do, what their country asks them, we don't choose to leave our families for years, to do the jobs that we are asked we just get on with it.

The poppy and the act of remembrance Is not about todays Army but paying respect for the thousands that gave their lives for you! for your freedom, for your right to debate and speak freely. This is not about today but for the past. if is the charities you are concerned about, then am ashamed for you.

God bless the Hibs!

I think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick about Marinello's post, Jake.

jakeshibs
04-11-2014, 06:23 PM
I think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick about Marinello's post, Jake.

if I have I will apologise. I am proud of hibs for doing this really am....

Beefster
04-11-2014, 06:23 PM
I am sorry but you are wrong ! I have served in the Army and during my time I have also served as a fireman when they sacked It, they were on more money than me and only worked a 4 day week and could get another job, I have also stood in as a ambulance driver for them, a prison guard, and a fuel driver for the strikes, this was all to keep you in the life that you have become accustomed.

Soldiers do what you ask them to do, what their country asks them, we don't choose to leave our families for years, to do the jobs that we are asked we just get on with it.

The poppy and the act of remembrance Is not about todays Army but paying respect for the thousands that gave their lives for you! for your freedom, for your right to debate and speak freely. This is not about today but for the past. if is the charities you are concerned about, then am ashamed for you.

God bless the Hibs!

I think you've either misquoted or misunderstood M59's post.

TowerHibs
04-11-2014, 06:25 PM
Just find it amazing that no matter what the thread or no what what the subject....if there is a difference of opinion then all of a sudden the replies of "disgusting", "embarrassing" come out

Leith Mo
04-11-2014, 06:25 PM
Personally I choose not to wear a poppy for my own reasons. Others choose to wear one for their own reasons - fair enough to them, it's not my place to criticise those individuals on here.

I do wonder though if all, or any, of our players have been given a choice as to whether they do personally wish to wear a poppy in this match and what the reaction would be to any who chose not to wear a poppy in this match or any other, perhaps for reasons which they as individuals would rather did not have to be aired in public? After all, remembrance began by being, and I believe should remain, a very personal thing and individuals can all remember different things in different ways. Rightly or wrongly depending upon your own individual viewpoint this can include the past and present actions (including "sacrifice") of British (& Empire & Commonwealth) service personnnel?

ancient hibee
04-11-2014, 06:25 PM
I think the point that this thread is NOT about nurses and fireman is precisely the point.

As a general rule, when it comes to charitable giving I tend to favour the victims of events over which they have no control - health related for example. Modern soldiers choose to be soldiers.

I do also worry about the US style jingoism that is increasingly being trumpeted around our armed forces, and I don't want the Uk to go down that militaristic road.

However I appreciate that for many (too many?) remembrance and jingoism about the armed forces have become inseparable. The Daily Mail is the fastest growing newspaper in Scotland apparently.

Add in the sense of one-upmanship that Hearts have created in this space, where it seems we are all competing to see who remembers most and best, and I dislike it and don't think we should be doing it. A minute's silence for the fallen used to suffice. Dignified and personal. Now we all have to PR it up to prove we 'support our boys'.

I also have a general belief that Hibs, as a broad church whose fans represent all political beliefs, religions etc, should really just focus on doing what we all Hibs fans do pay their hard-earned towards, and that's being a football team, pure and simple. Leave the charity, community work etc to individual fans to make their own choices that best reflect their own personal beliefs.

Could you give some examples of the UKs jingoistic approach to the armed services?

Elephant Stone
04-11-2014, 06:29 PM
Could you give some examples of the UKs jingoistic approach to the armed services?

Do you mean the UK government or UK society? Either way I find it hard to believe you can't see any.

TheReg!
04-11-2014, 06:30 PM
We should also stop giving them special status in my opinion. These days it's a job they choose to do and for the most part is no more dangerous than many other professions.

Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do!

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 06:42 PM
Could you give some examples of the UKs jingoistic approach to the armed services?

Not really, its more the sense I get of a general discourse and feeling, that is well demonstrated by some of the replies to the dissenters on this thread.

Jonnyboy
04-11-2014, 06:45 PM
Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do, however, I have probably more honour, pride, integrity and self sacrifice in my little finger than you have in your whole body!!

This.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 06:47 PM
Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do, however, I have probably more honour, pride, integrity and self sacrifice in my little finger than you have in your whole body!!

Jeezo, that's quite statement to make.

On your first point, I imagine fishermen, miners, oil workers (helicopter crashes in the North Sea), many industrial workers (asbestos etc), and when it comes to your deafness, DJs?

southern hibby
04-11-2014, 06:57 PM
We should also stop giving them special status in my opinion. These days it's a job they choose to do and for the most part is no more dangerous than many other professions.

I did as I have already stated 22 years Royal Navy. I'n that time I've done Bosnia and three tours of Iraq. As for it being a job I chose to do you are correct, but if I and the other 170,000 serving and numerous Veterans had not joined then think along these lines we would have National Service and then we would all have served.

I'n this time my last tour of Iraq was 7 months on an oil platform. I never joined up to serve on foreign soil, like soldiers and Marines do I joined to keep Britains trade routes on the high seas free from foreign adversaries. As for it being no more dangerous than other jobs I must disagree.

Also I have seen guys and girls coming back from a 7 or 9 month tour of duty to be told they're sailing again immediately for another tour of duty. As you said we volunteer for said jobs however we are human too and more so is our families and loved ones.

GGTTH

marinello59
04-11-2014, 07:16 PM
I am sorry but you are wrong ! I have served in the Army and during my time I have also served as a fireman when they sacked It, they were on more money than me and only worked a 4 day week and could get another job, I have also stood in as a ambulance driver for them, a prison guard, and a fuel driver for the strikes, this was all to keep you in the life that you have become accustomed.

Soldiers do what you ask them to do, what their country asks them, we don't choose to leave our families for years, to do the jobs that we are asked we just get on with it.

The poppy and the act of remembrance Is not about todays Army but paying respect for the thousands that gave their lives for you! for your freedom, for your right to debate and speak freely. This is not about today but for the past. if is the charities you are concerned about, then am ashamed for you.

God bless the Hibs!

I generally am.:greengrin
But you seem to have totally misread what I posted.

Brizo
04-11-2014, 07:29 PM
Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do, however, I have probably more honour, pride, integrity and self sacrifice in my little finger than you have in your whole body!!

Jeezo, that's quite statement to make.

On your first point, I imagine fishermen, miners, oil workers (helicopter crashes in the North Sea), many industrial workers (asbestos etc), and when it comes to your deafness, DJs?

Im a Southside boy myself with a liking for the harp but dearie me , are you for real. To liken hearing loss sustained in a war zone to hearing loss sustained by DJs ! FFS have a word. And do you really think the professions you have named above sustain the same levels of fatalities and injuries as the Armed Forces.

I despair at some of the p@sh on this thread and yours is up there with the worst.

Andy74
04-11-2014, 07:34 PM
Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do, however, I have probably more honour, pride, integrity and self sacrifice in my little finger than you have in your whole body!!

Your last paragraph is a disgrace by the way.

FranckSuzy
04-11-2014, 07:44 PM
I did as I have already stated 22 years Royal Navy. I'n that time I've done Bosnia and three tours of Iraq. As for it being a job I chose to do you are correct, but if I and the other 170,000 serving and numerous Veterans had not joined then think along these lines we would have National Service and then we would all have served.

I'n this time my last tour of Iraq was 7 months on an oil platform. I never joined up to serve on foreign soil, like soldiers and Marines do I joined to keep Britains trade routes on the high seas free from foreign adversaries. As for it being no more dangerous than other jobs I must disagree.

Also I have seen guys and girls coming back from a 7 or 9 month tour of duty to be told they're sailing again immediately for another tour of duty. As you said we volunteer for said jobs however we are human too and more so is our families and loved ones.

GGTTH

A very good point, SH.

I despair of some people, I really do. Last year there was a thread complaining that Hibs did not observe a minutes silence at the nearest game to 11/11 then we have this thread...

FWIW, to me, economic conscription is also at play for some of those who signed up and that really is the fault of the government, that the forces seem like a good bet compared to the opportunities (or lack of) available elsewhere.

Soldiersteve
04-11-2014, 07:46 PM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

WTF!

Unlike you, most soldiers I know have class

Ricky Bobby
04-11-2014, 07:46 PM
I annually buy a poppy. I wear it to show respect for all those who killed in conflict, soldiers and civilians. I believe there are white poppies which are more of a symbol of peace and the questioning of the need for war. Whatever we wear or don't wear, we should remember that that a few people in positions of power commit to war and the burden falls on people who would prefer to find a peaceful solution.

Chuck Rhoades
04-11-2014, 08:23 PM
Really??? Having spent he best part of 20 years in the Parachute Regiment, i have personally seen 3 friends killed in the space of a 6 month tour in Afghanistan not to mention half a dozen amputee's, and that is just from one tour never mind the other 9 that i have done. I have also suffered to hearing loss, which has made me disabled for life as i have to wear two hearing aids at the age of 36. Name one other profession that has this scale of injuries and death in a 6 month period???

Soldiers don't pick and choose to go to War/Illegal Wars/Conflicts or what ever you want to call it, we go because its what the elected government of the time deem necessary.

As it happens, most soldiers don't want special status within society, i find it embarrassing tbh, we don't want freedom of city's, marching bands, and Millie awards (WTF), i don't want and expect anything from anybody, i can get that from my friends who have shared good and bad times with in the Army. BUT if people want to get together once a year to REMEMBER the sacrifice of fallen soldiers, be that The Great War, WW2, Korea, Falklands, NI, and the other half dozen conflicts in between then thats a good thing because that is all it is nothing more nothing less.

Andy, it is a job we choose to do, however, I have probably more honour, pride, integrity and self sacrifice in my little finger than you have in your whole body!!

Start of the last sentence answers your own point - you chose to sign up to the Army, no one else signed you up.

I have little to no pride in some of the most recent wars given legality of them.

CropleyWasGod
04-11-2014, 08:26 PM
Start of the last sentence answers your own point - you chose to sign up to the Army, no one else signed you up.

I have little to no pride in some of the most recent wars given legality of them.

Think you're confusing pride in the wars with respect for those who are forced, through decisions made by people who will never be on the front line, to fight in them.

Scouse Hibee
04-11-2014, 08:28 PM
With regard to recent conflicts, for me it's quite simple I am remembering those who were lost in those conflicts not the reasons or legality of the actual conflicts.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 08:28 PM
Protest at the governments that decide the course of action then and don't aim your unease at the guys who are just serving their country by doing their job.

Funnily enough, I'm sure the guys who serve couldn't give a toss who you are or what your beliefs are if they are called upon to assist.

Really?

Well Michael Moore managed to write a whole book about it filled with communications from US servicemen who blindly fought in Iraq. Letter after letter blindly highlighted the futility of it all.

We live in an era of war corporatism and we have to question our representatives decisions on conflict. I just feel sorry that our boys have to blindly follow and take part in senseless conflicts. And we have to blindly appreciate their efforts. It shouldn't get to that stage... The poppies should be hurled at Westminster in disgust.

Gerard
04-11-2014, 08:34 PM
We are fortunate to live in a society that allows freedom of expression and movement. We are also fortunate that we do not have to serve in the armed forces as there is no conscription. In my opinion we are a very lucky generation not to have been sent to fight for our country.We have a choice to join the armed forces. They do not have a choice where they serve. 100 years ago the young men were sent to fight in a war that we can not imagine the horrors of. There was many Hibs fans and other football fans who would not return to watch their clubs play football. No person on this message board glories in the stupidity of war. We pay our respect the fallen in that war and the many conflicts since then.

Chuck Rhoades
04-11-2014, 08:37 PM
We are fortunate to live in a society that allows freedom of expression and movement. We are also fortunate that we do not have to serve in the armed forces as there is no conscription. In my opinion we are a very lucky generation not to have been sent to fight for our country.We have a choice to join the armed forces. They do not have a choice where they serve. 100 years ago the young men were sent to fight in a war that we can not imagine the horrors of. There was many Hibs fans and other football fans who would not return to watch their clubs play football. No person on this message board glories in the stupidity of war. We pay our respect the fallen in that war and the many conflicts since then.

Great post, and where I was trying to go with my earlier post.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 08:41 PM
Really?

Well Michael Moore managed to write a whole book about it filled with communications from US servicemen who blindly fought in Iraq. Letter after letter blindly highlighted the futility of it all.

We live in an era of war corporatism and we have to question our representatives decisions on conflict. I just feel sorry that our boys have to blindly follow and take part in senseless conflicts. And we have to blindly appreciate their efforts. It shouldn't get to that stage... The poppies should be hurled at Westminster in disgust.

Blindly appreciate their efforts? I'm not so sure that anybody on this thread is doing that. You seem to be suggesting that anybody who disagrees with your particular view point is incapable of coherent thought yet there has been thought provoking stuff from posters from all sides of the debate. Surely you can do better than that.

LancsHibs
04-11-2014, 08:45 PM
A great touch from Hibs, well done. :aok:
There are some people with very odd ideas who post on here I must say:confused:

TheReg!
04-11-2014, 08:47 PM
Your last paragraph is a disgrace by the way.

I agree, i apologise mate, I've have deleted it. Just a wee bit hot headed when i get going.

Lucius Apuleius
04-11-2014, 08:51 PM
Why?

Ifyou have to ask it would be a waste of time answering.

As an aside, for those asking, do nurses and firemen not choose to do their jobs as well?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 09:27 PM
[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;4216824][B]

Im a Southside boy myself with a liking for the harp but dearie me , are you for real. To liken hearing loss sustained in a war zone to hearing loss sustained by DJs ! FFS have a word. And do you really think the professions you have named above sustain the same levels of fatalities and injuries as the Armed Forces.

I despair at some of the p@sh on this thread and yours is up there with the worst.


I was being deliberately flippant with the DJ remark, so I apologise for that.

I honestly don't know about the other professions. I suspect not at the moment.

I was responding to the post where the ex soldier stated he didn't want or expect special treatment (which i agree with) then proceeded to go on a rant illustrating why we should all give him special treatment, then disparaged a guy that I presume he doesn't know, throwing about words like honour, self sacrifice, and integrity as if those qualities are uniquely held by squaddies. Which i think we can all agree is pish.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but equally I'm not going to bow to this faux hero-worship of guys who volunteer to do a job. I appreciate I have a minority view, that's fine. Some soldiers are I'm sure heroes, some are I'm sure total wa**s. Like in any walk of life.

PS - i'm talking about the modern, professional armed forces, not the huge conscript armies of the world wars, which are a completely different thing in my view.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 09:28 PM
Ifyou have to ask it would be a waste of time answering.

As an aside, for those asking, do nurses and firemen not choose to do their jobs as well?

Yes they do, and the don't get special treatment either (well, i cant speak for firemen but I do know about nurses)

McIntosh
04-11-2014, 09:35 PM
The self righteousness of some is really hard to understand. Some espouse a public viewpoint which read in the cold is completely devoid of humanity I am sure they do not act upon this in person. I am sure they love the mothers, the fathers , their sisters, their brothers and their children, if they are so blessed but this bitterness borne possibly from frustration is sadly misguided.

I cannot but feel compassion for all the victim of war - soldiers and all. War is ultimately futile. Victory on so many different levels is a defeat. The average man or woman at arms has and had no real choice. The soldiers, sailors and airman and women are our people, our duty is to look after our people particularly when they have been asked to sacrifice their lives for a folly.

Islington Hibs
04-11-2014, 09:41 PM
I am sorry but you are wrong ! I have served in the Army and during my time I have also served as a fireman when they sacked It, they were on more money than me and only worked a 4 day week and could get another job, I have also stood in as a ambulance driver for them, a prison guard, and a fuel driver for the strikes, this was all to keep you in the life that you have become accustomed.

Soldiers do what you ask them to do, what their country asks them, we don't choose to leave our families for years, to do the jobs that we are asked we just get on with it.

The poppy and the act of remembrance Is not about todays Army but paying respect for the thousands that gave their lives for you! for your freedom, for your right to debate and speak freely. This is not about today but for the past. if is the charities you are concerned about, then am ashamed for you.

God bless the Hibs!

Great post. I am saddened by some of the responses. Soldiers do what is asked of them by their political masters. They are not well paid and often are literally in the line of fire. While I respect that some people may have problems with political decisions to debate whether Hibernian were right to give a few free tickets to serving forces, as a token of respect for those who sacrificed everything they had, is beyond he pail. I salute our brave boys. Well done Hibenian.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 09:43 PM
The self righteousness of some is really hard to understand. Some espouse a public viewpoint which read in the cold is completely devoid of humanity I am sure they do not act upon this in person. I am sure they love the mothers, the fathers , their sisters, their brothers and their children, if they are so blessed but this bitterness borne possibly from frustration is sadly misguided.

I cannot but feel compassion for all the victim of war - soldiers and all. War is ultimately futile. Victory on so many different levels is a defeat. The average man or woman at arms has and had no real choice. The soldiers, sailors and airman and women are our people, our duty is to look after our people particularly when they have been asked to sacrifice their lives for a folly.


I would suggest that your opening sentence is somewhat contradicted by your second paragraph.

jakeshibs
04-11-2014, 09:52 PM
I generally am.:greengrin
But you seem to have totally misread what I posted.

sorry!

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 09:55 PM
With regard to recent conflicts, for me it's quite simple I am remembering those who were lost in those conflicts not the reasons or legality of the actual conflicts.

And those loses could have been avoided if only governments would listen to public opinion on our entry but war mongers like Blair didn't help matters did it?

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:02 PM
We are fortunate to live in a society that allows freedom of expression and movement. We are also fortunate that we do not have to serve in the armed forces as there is no conscription. In my opinion we are a very lucky generation not to have been sent to fight for our country.We have a choice to join the armed forces. They do not have a choice where they serve. 100 years ago the young men were sent to fight in a war that we can not imagine the horrors of. There was many Hibs fans and other football fans who would not return to watch their clubs play football. No person on this message board glories in the stupidity of war. We pay our respect the fallen in that war and the many conflicts since then.

Yes we can pay our respects but to blindly follow a governments decision to enter dubious conflicts is a real question. Many that do sign up don't I feel out of patriotic duty but rather as as a victim of circumstance that there is very little of offer employment wise. WW1 and it's causes is another argument with imperialism at the front of it. Millions sacrificed to maintain an elitist system with the working class the main victims. Was it worth it? Is is right to blindly honour them and not ask serious questions of the motives behind the conflict.

Feel really uneasy about the clubs endorsement of this.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:02 PM
And those loses could have been avoided if only governments would listen to public opinion on our entry but war mongers like Blair didn't help matters did it?

I don't think anybody here is suggesting otherwise? :confused:

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:07 PM
And those loses could have been avoided if only governments would listen to public opinion on our entry but war mongers like Blair didn't help matters did it?

What governments decide has nothing to do with the minute's silence a week on Saturday. I will be thinking about my 2 great granddad's who never returned from Arras, about my grandmother who I saw crumple when she eventually saw her father's grave 64 years after he died on her first visit to France, for my wife's friend whose husband never returned from Afganistan and her 14 year old son who will never get to know her father.

Keep the politics out of this thread please.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:07 PM
Blindly appreciate their efforts? I'm not so sure that anybody on this thread is doing that. You seem to be suggesting that anybody who disagrees with your particular view point is incapable of coherent thought yet there has been thought provoking stuff from posters from all sides of the debate. Surely you can do better than that.

So where could I do better in my post?

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:08 PM
So where could I do better in my post?

By not posting it in the first place?

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:09 PM
What governments decide has nothing to do with the minute's silence a week on Saturday. I will be thinking about my 2 great granddad's who never returned from Arras, about my grandmother who I saw crumple when she eventually saw her father's grave 64 years after he died on her first visit to France, for my wife's friend whose husband never returned from Afganistan and her 14 year old son who will never get to know her father.

Keep the politics out of this thread please.

I'm sorry for your families loss but IMO all conflicts are unnecessary and therefore loss avoidable. I'm sorry but some can't keep politics out of such threads because such loss is a direct result of political intervention.

Leith Mo
04-11-2014, 10:11 PM
A lot on this thread about "choice" in the face ofddirections from above ("political masters" etc). As I asked earlier I am asking again:
Do our players have the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy endorsed strip? Surely if it's to remember a "sacrifice for freedom and democracy" they should have that choice but by the silence on this question am I correct in assuming that the answer is no? Now that would be hypocrisy!

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:13 PM
I'm sorry for your families loss but IMO all conflicts are unnecessary and therefore loss avoidable. I'm sorry but some can't keep politics out of such threads because such loss is a direct result of political intervention.

This thread is about remembering people who died giving their lives for freedom, not a thread for politics and opinions.

There is a time and place for everything and I don't think this is a place for you to inflict your political opinions on everyone.

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:16 PM
A lot on this thread about "choice" in the face ofddirections from above ("political masters" etc). As I asked earlier I am asking again:
Do our players have the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy endorsed strip? Surely if it's to remember a "sacrifice for freedom and democracy" they should have that choice but by the silence on this question am I correct in assuming that the answer is no? Now that would be hypocrisy!

I have been involved in the organising of the day and will ask that players are not forced into wearing a special top for the day. It was not something I had thought of at all.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:17 PM
So where could I do better in my post?

You could start by actually reading the points made in the replies you get and actually answering them rather than ignoring them.

Leith Mo
04-11-2014, 10:19 PM
I have been involved in the organising of the day and will ask that players are not forced into wearing a special top for the day. It was not something I had thought of at all.

Thanks PatHead as I can think that just like many fans at least one of the players may prefer not to wear it.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:20 PM
By not posting it in the first place?

That's constructive... Thought these guys were fighting for our democratic freedoms such as freedom of speech. I post as a pacifist and someone who takes issues with many conflicts. To blindly follow an elected dictatorship through a FPTP voting system and their decisions for conflict is not helping matters. To blindly honour those fallen and not ask serious questions about such involvement and future involvement is unhealthy in a so called democracy.

Bostonhibby
04-11-2014, 10:23 PM
And those loses could have been avoided if only governments would listen to public opinion on our entry but war mongers like Blair didn't help matters did it?

Would you be thinking along similar lines about the soldiers who followed the orders they were given if the soldiers concerned were involved in an invasion from the South of Ireland into the North of Ireland with the single aim of making the island into one country even though some of the population never agreed with that aim?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
04-11-2014, 10:25 PM
This thread is about remembering people who died giving their lives for freedom, not a thread for politics and opinions.

There is a time and place for everything and I don't think this is a place for you to inflict your political opinions on everyone.


No its not, IMO.

Its about our club, choosing to endorse something that, clearly, not all of its fans agree with. This isn't about remembrance per se, its about our club doing organised remembrance and giving money to a particular charity.

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:25 PM
That's constructive... Thought these guys were fighting for our democratic freedoms such as freedom of speech. I post as a pacifist and someone who takes issues with many conflicts. To blindly follow an elected dictatorship through a FPTP voting system and their decisions for conflict is not helping matters. To blindly honour those fallen and not ask serious questions about such involvement and future involvement is unhealthy in a so called democracy.

As I said there is a time and place for everything. This isn't the time or the place, this is about honouring those who died. Feel free to debate the merits of wars on another thread or another forum.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:27 PM
This thread is about remembering people who died giving their lives for freedom, not a thread for politics and opinions.

There is a time and place for everything and I don't think this is a place for you to inflict your political opinions on everyone.

Disagree. As Marx said of the " lumpen proletariat" there are those that blindly follow. For a club like ours to sign up to this is to open it to political discussion. I await a Prime Minister announcing on Remembrance Day ' never again' but alas lobbying and war corporatism will win the day.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:29 PM
That's constructive... Thought these guys were fighting for our democratic freedoms such as freedom of speech. I post as a pacifist and someone who takes issues with many conflicts. To blindly follow an elected dictatorship through a FPTP voting system and their decisions for conflict is not helping matters. To blindly honour those fallen and not ask serious questions about such involvement and future involvement is unhealthy in a so called democracy.

Ah. You are not actually interested in debate, you only want to lecture us lesser mortals. You seem totally oblivious to the fact that nobody here appears to be 'blindly ' supporting any of the recent conflicts. You are arguing against a position that nobody here has actually taken. :confused:

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:31 PM
You could start by actually reading the points made in the replies you get and actually answering them rather than ignoring them.

Marinello, I do and attempt to tailor my response to the points such raised. Feel free to point out where I have failed or could do better.

The Green Goblin
04-11-2014, 10:31 PM
I remember my great grandfather who fought and physically (if not entirely emotionally) survived battles at Ypres, the Somme and Paschaendale. I also remember the fact that HIS mother posted the medals awarded to his brother (to this day buried in an unknown grave somewhere in France) back to the war office in 1923, together with a letter saying that they could keep their medals, as they were not a fair exchange for the life of her son.

My point is, this is an emotive and sometimes complex issue for many people for many different reasons, usually deeply personal ones. What they all have in common is that none of them seek to glorify war and it is there that all parties should seek common ground. Whether you choose to wear a poppy or not, perhaps the simple act of allowing others to do as they will according to their own feelings and refraining from passing judgement on their choices allows each to respond in their own way without being judged or criticised for doing so, regardless of what that stance may be. Isn't that more in keeping with our implicit common search for an end to destructive disagreements between people and ideologies, the one thing to which we can all agree upon and aspire to, in our own small way?

In short: live and let live.

PatHead
04-11-2014, 10:32 PM
Disagree. As Marx said of the " lumpen proletariat" there are those that blindly follow. For a club like ours to sign up to this is to open it to political discussion. I await a Prime Minister announcing on Remembrance Day ' never again' but alas lobbying and war corporatism will win the day.

Please get you facts right. The idea came from supporters not management. The management had not instigated anything yet.

The management are acting on requests not blindly following other clubs. Rather than moaning on here contact the club if it upsets you

CropleyWasGod
04-11-2014, 10:33 PM
Disagree. As Marx said of the " lumpen proletariat" there are those that blindly follow. For a club like ours to sign up to this is to open it to political discussion. I await a Prime Minister announcing on Remembrance Day ' never again' but alas lobbying and war corporatism will win the day.

You have used the word "blindly" about a dozen times on this thread. That's pretty dismissive.

If I choose to respect the likes of my great-granda who died in WW1, and whose politics I may well have disagreed with, I will do it with my eyes (and mind) open.

Sir David Gray
04-11-2014, 10:36 PM
This thread reminds me of why my time spent on the Holy Ground is few and far between.

Frightening.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:36 PM
Would you be thinking along similar lines about the soldiers who followed the orders they were given if the soldiers concerned were involved in an invasion from the South of Ireland into the North of Ireland with the single aim of making the island into one country even though some of the population never agreed with that aim?

Silly and twisted post. Something that is never going to happen given the Peace Conflict deal that the Republic should renounce its claim over the North. and besides what chance public opinion in the north given its Gerry mandered state.

ronaldo7
04-11-2014, 10:36 PM
A lot on this thread about "choice" in the face ofddirections from above ("political masters" etc). As I asked earlier I am asking again:
Do our players have the freedom to choose not to wear the poppy endorsed strip? Surely if it's to remember a "sacrifice for freedom and democracy" they should have that choice but by the silence on this question am I correct in assuming that the answer is no? Now that would be hypocrisy!

Someone who never wore a poppy on his strip who was then highlighted by our wonderful media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2231071/James-McClean-refuses-wear-poppy.html

Even Fifa had a go some time back, although I believe they backed down eventually, and allowed the poppy on their armbands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/8876762/Fifa-will-not-allow-England-players-to-wear-poppies-against-Spain-despite-Government-plea.html

Imo players should be free to make their own decision on the wearing of the poppy.

Bostonhibby
04-11-2014, 10:40 PM
Disagree. As Marx said of the " lumpen proletariat" there are those that blindly follow. For a club like ours to sign up to this is to open it to political discussion. I await a Prime Minister announcing on Remembrance Day ' never again' but alas lobbying and war corporatism will win the day.

You are certainly lumpenly following your own particular view on this one, the club you speak about has many fans who have more diverse and considered views than yourself, they carry equal weight to your own about the subject matter.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 10:42 PM
Ah. You are not actually interested in debate, you only want to lecture us lesser mortals. You seem totally oblivious to the fact that nobody here appears to be 'blindly ' supporting any of the recent conflicts. You are arguing against a position that nobody here has actually taken. :confused:

I think the position that a large number of posters have taken is that they welcome the move by the club. I feel that such moves by the club are a result of poppy media generated poppy fascism that to have other views is to be targeted as being disrespectful. I had to take union advice today about not attending a whole school remembrance service... That's how straight jacketed some are in society about such conflicting views.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:42 PM
Someone who never wore a poppy on his strip who was then highlighted by our wonderful media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2231071/James-McClean-refuses-wear-poppy.html

Even Fifa had a go some time back, although I believe they backed down eventually, and allowed the poppy on their armbands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/8876762/Fifa-will-not-allow-England-players-to-wear-poppies-against-Spain-despite-Government-plea.html

Imo players should be free to make their own decision on the wearing of the poppy.

I totally agree with that, if any player doesn't want to wear the poppy they shouldn't have to and their decision should be respected.

Bostonhibby
04-11-2014, 10:43 PM
Silly and twisted post. Something that is never going to happen given the Peace Conflict deal that the Republic should renounce its claim over the North. and besides what chance public opinion in the north given its Gerry mandered state.

The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.

CB_NO3
04-11-2014, 10:49 PM
The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.
Modern day soldiers dont have to do anything. They dont have to be soldiers. They do it for their wages.

ronaldo7
04-11-2014, 10:51 PM
I totally agree with that, if any player doesn't want to wear the poppy they shouldn't have to and their decision should be respected.:agree:

The trouble is that player would be highlighted in the media for not wearing one. I'd put my house on it.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 10:53 PM
:agree:

The trouble is that player would be highlighted in the media for not wearing one. I'd put my house on it.

Sadly you wouldn't be risking your house at all.

FranckSuzy
04-11-2014, 10:55 PM
Really?

Well Michael Moore managed to write a whole book about it filled with communications from US servicemen who blindly fought in Iraq. Letter after letter blindly highlighted the futility of it all.

We live in an era of war corporatism and we have to question our representatives decisions on conflict. I just feel sorry that our boys have to blindly follow and take part in senseless conflicts. And we have to blindly appreciate their efforts. It shouldn't get to that stage... The poppies should be hurled at Westminster in disgust.

I despair.

You know what, just about every single one of your posts is disingenuous. So, with that in mind, and using the oft-quoted "free speech", you're going on 'ignore' and I'll make sure I pass on your 'equal, diverse and inclusive' views to the branch that you previously attempted to call yourself after (until asked not to). They, BTW, support those of any religious background or none at all and are not political by any stretch of the imagination so I'm not sure if it's a good match, really.

Bostonhibby
04-11-2014, 10:55 PM
Modern day soldiers dont have to do anything. They dont have to be soldiers. They do it for their wages.

:agree: Once they are in, its different. They then have to be soldiers. The conflict then is probably irrelevant, hence my point to the other poster.

Leith Mo
04-11-2014, 10:59 PM
Let's be clear: the choice of any individual not to wear a poppy is NOT always dictated by any connection to the former conflict in Ireland and views on the conduct of British Forces there but also for many other reasons. I see no need to assume otherwise although for some reason it is always the case (IMO evidenced also on this thread) that those who endorse the wearing of the poppy trot out the "IRA sympathiser" line believing it insults those who don't wear the poppy. It might be one reason not to wear it but it's not the sole one. (It's also the same accusation thrown at those of us who choose to wear a different plant on 17th March for a different act of remembrance although I suspect that the sentiments of those directing the criticism in many cases have a similar root)

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:00 PM
I remember my great grandfather who fought and physically (if not entirely emotionally) survived battles at Ypres, the Somme and Paschaendale. I also remember the fact that HIS mother posted the medals awarded to his brother (to this day buried in an unknown grave somewhere in France) back to the war office in 1923, together with a letter saying that they could keep their medals, as they were not a fair exchange for the life of her son.

My point is, this is an emotive and sometimes complex issue for many people for many different reasons, usually deeply personal ones. What they all have in common is that none of them seek to glorify war and it is there that all parties should seek common ground. Whether you choose to wear a poppy or not, perhaps the simple act of allowing others to do as they will according to their own feelings and refraining from passing judgement on their choices allows each to respond in their own way without being judged or criticised for doing so, regardless of what that stance may be. Isn't that more in keeping with our implicit common search for an end to destructive disagreements between people and ideologies, the one thing to which we can all agree upon and aspire to, in our own small way?

That's a good constructive post

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:05 PM
Someone who never wore a poppy on his strip who was then highlighted by our wonderful media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2231071/James-McClean-refuses-wear-poppy.html

Even Fifa had a go some time back, although I believe they backed down eventually, and allowed the poppy on their armbands.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/8876762/Fifa-will-not-allow-England-players-to-wear-poppies-against-Spain-despite-Government-plea.html

Imo players should be free to make their own decision on the wearing of the poppy.

I agree but this 'wonderful media' as you call it will jump on the conscientious objectors (who were tarred with white feathers in WW2). Poppy fascism again.

marinello59
04-11-2014, 11:12 PM
I agree but this 'wonderful media' as you call it will jump on the conscientious objectors (who were tarred with white feathers in WW2). Poppy fascism again.

WW1 and WW2 conscientious objectors have had a largely sympathetic press In recent years with several articles calling for pardons etc. I think you are living in the past with that one. As for present day objectors it's a bit easier for them, they don't have to join up in the first place.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:14 PM
I despair.

You know what, just about every single one of your posts is disingenuous. So, with that in mind, and using the oft-quoted "free speech", you're going on 'ignore' and I'll make sure I pass on your 'equal, diverse and inclusive' views to the branch that you previously attempted to call yourself after (until asked not to). They, BTW, support those of any religious background or none at all and are not political by any stretch of the imagination so I'm not sure if it's a good match, really.

Wow!

Suzy are you used the word disingenuous correctly? Where are my posts underhand, untruthful or deceitful? I am delighted to be a member of St Pats and welcome their inclusive stance - which means open to all persuasions and views. I accept my original choice of name was inappropriate and hence the change from various private communications with the branch. To say I am effectively not a good fit for the branch, well speak to Gordon and Robert who know me well. Proud member and happy to continue the link between our club and our spiritual home. Feel free to chat to me at the next meeting.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:17 PM
WW1 and WW2 conscientious objectors have had a largely sympathetic press In recent years with several articles calling for pardons etc. I think you are living in the past with that one. As for present day objectors it's a bit easier for them, they don't have to join up in the first place.

Fair point but would probably still raise a few eyebrows amongst certain media circles if you refrained, yes?

Bostonhibby
04-11-2014, 11:35 PM
Silly and twisted post. Something that is never going to happen given the Peace Conflict deal that the Republic should renounce its claim over the North. and besides what chance public opinion in the north given its Gerry mandered state.

The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.



Any thoughts GSP? Public opinion probably doesn't matter once the soldiers have been ordered in.

The correct term "gerrymandering" is about attempting to gain an electoral advantage rather than a military one - gerrymandering is a distraction, but not what I asked about.

Bishop Hibee
04-11-2014, 11:45 PM
So if there is a bucket collection and there is a minutes silence then your only objection is publicising the fact that the clubs are going to auction off the shirts for charity? It would be difficult to auction them without publicising it would it not? The shirts I would assume cannot be used again on the basis of the embroidered message (and probable poppy emblem) so is it not better to maximise their use by holding the auction? The choice of charity is another matter. Or is it the just the fact they are handing out free tickets as a small gesture to show their appreciation of the servicemen and woman that you disagree with? I don't believe that this is anything other than a genuine offer by both clubs to say thanks to the people who defend us, the offer is open to veterans too and I'm sure a number of them will be attending the game as guests of both clubs.

Eh, no. I don't agree with the publicity complete with photoshoot including current members of the armed forces. Remembrance in my book is remembrance of those who have given their lives in wars since WW1 serving in the UK services. The problem with free tickets in my eyes is that through giving service personnel a higher status than any other UK citizen it gives tacit acceptance to every conflict they've fought in. I accept others do not hold that view and that's fine. I'd personally prefer the club to wear a white poppy with the red one which would suggest the club supports a peaceful future and an end to war but that's never going to happen.

If the majority of Hibs fans want to give current service personnel free tickets to show their appreciation then why not do it on the game nearest the new armed forces day that has been created recently? That would separate Remembrance from any current convicts and the inevitable political fallout they have.

Leith Mo
04-11-2014, 11:51 PM
The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.



Any thoughts GSP? Public opinion probably doesn't matter once the soldiers have been ordered in.

The correct term "gerrymandering" is about attempting to gain an electoral advantage rather than a military one - gerrymandering is a distraction, but not what I asked about.

"Gerrymandering" specifically related to an attempt to deny equal rights of democracy and representation to the Nationalist and Republican communities of Northern Ireland so I can see GSP's reference to it in view of your provocative question re any "invasion" of that geographical area as relevant. As I said in an earlier post it seems some people including yourself can't help but link the Irish question to the poppy debate and I therefore do question your real motivation? It does seem a bit like you do have an anti Irish bearing on this which is sad really. People of all nationalities living in these "British Isles" don't agree with the poppy - that doesn't mean that they all support a united Ireland or the IRA. And of course many Irishmen have also worked for Crown forces in various uniforms.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:54 PM
The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.



Any thoughts GSP? Public opinion probably doesn't matter once the soldiers have been ordered in.

The correct term "gerrymandering" is about attempting to gain an electoral advantage rather than a military one - gerrymandering is a distraction, but not what I asked about.

To answer your first paragraph - about what soldiers have to do and why. This is my central objection. Do soldiers sign up for patriotic and support of our our political representatives decisions? Some may well do. Studies in the US certainly show that disenfranchised persons are actively woo'd in the recruitment process out of their own economic despair. A traditional left wing view that the working classes are sacrificed to preserve the economic status quo.

Would you be happy to see your son die in a war that was senseless and politically driven? Other posters took umbrage at my 'throwing the poppies at Westminster in disgust'. I know I would feel like this and many other families have questioned the same unnecessary loss.

Not going to be drawn into hypothetical situations as you ask again as I feel I already answered it with Ireland's part they had to play through Mowlems peace deal.

Glorious St Pat
04-11-2014, 11:56 PM
The thread is about the merits of recognising what soldiers have to do and why, feel free to answer the hypothetical question.



Any thoughts GSP? Public opinion probably doesn't matter once the soldiers have been ordered in.

The correct term "gerrymandering" is about attempting to gain an electoral advantage rather than a military one - gerrymandering is a distraction, but not what I asked about.

Just noticed again your second paragraph. Public opinion cN matter and shape conflict - see the Vietnam war and protests of the late 1960s.

Glorious St Pat
05-11-2014, 12:02 AM
Eh, no. I don't agree with the publicity complete with photoshoot including current members of the armed forces. Remembrance in my book is remembrance of those who have given their lives in wars since WW1 serving in the UK services. The problem with free tickets in my eyes is that through giving service personnel a higher status than any other UK citizen it gives tacit acceptance to every conflict they've fought in. I accept others do not hold that view and that's fine. I'd personally prefer the club to wear a white poppy with the red one which would suggest the club supports a peaceful future and an end to war but that's never going to happen.

If the majority of Hibs fans want to give current service personnel free tickets to show their appreciation then why not do it on the game nearest the new armed forces day that has been created recently? That would separate Remembrance from any current convicts and the inevitable political fallout they have.

Great post and I like your point about tacit acceptance - my argument throughout if anyone would care to take on board.

1875godsgift
05-11-2014, 12:06 AM
I'm sorry for your families loss but IMO all conflicts are unnecessary and therefore loss avoidable. I'm sorry but some can't keep politics out of such threads because such loss is a direct result of political intervention.

So as the tanks rolled over Europe in 1940 you would have stood up and said " IMO all conflicts are unnecessary " and they would have turned round and gone home?

Bostonhibby
05-11-2014, 12:09 AM
"Gerrymandering" specifically related to an attempt to deny equal rights of democracy and representation to the Nationalist and Republican communities of Northern Ireland so I can see GSP's reference to it in view of your provocative question re any "invasion" of that geographical area as relevant. As I said in an earlier post it seems some people including yourself can't help but link the Irish question to the poppy debate and I therefore do question your real motivation? It does seem a bit like you do have an anti Irish bearing on this which is sad really. People of all nationalities living in these "British Isles" don't agree with the poppy - that doesn't mean that they all support a united Ireland or the IRA. And of course many Irishmen have also worked for Crown forces in various uniforms.

Mo - my posting history on related subjects are more or less in line with your own - see the past debates about the yams spin on war memorials for example - on this particular thread I am trying to stay as close as I can to why I believe soldiers of all ilk, when ordered into battle deserve respect - on GSP's points I felt that the best way to perhaps highlight this was to link it to something he tends to respond to, matters Irish.

If you can show me anywhere where I have mentioned the poppy, I defer, and fine, no worries. If you knew my background you'd know that my "bearing" is certainly not pro British. Gerrymandering wasn't raised by me on this one and its relevance to the thread is questionable but to just ignore it in view of the way it was cited seemed wrong.

I was hoping there would be an appreciation that soldiers could turn up in circumstances they might not want to be in but did it anyway and if it happened to be for a cause that you agree with, you might not be so hard on them as some have been here?

Glorious St Pat
05-11-2014, 12:13 AM
So as the tanks rolled over Europe in 1940 you would have stood up and said " IMO all conflicts are unnecessary " and they would have turned round and gone home?

Easy target and response to make. Look how history judged Chamberlains attempt at appeasement and contrast with Churchills response. Are we such a war mongering nation? Am I naive to expect something else? Or are we part of a neo liberal war corporatism consensus?

marinello59
05-11-2014, 06:54 AM
Great post and I like your point about tacit acceptance - my argument throughout if anyone would care to take on board.

No it's not. The Bishop has answered the points put to him and given clear reasons why he feels the way he does. I may disagree with some of what he says but at least his posts are coherent. In the main you ignore others views and just post up another lecture answering points that nobody here has raised. For example your comment about people taking umbrage at your 'throwing poppies at Westminster in disgust' comment. You've chosen to highlight one comment you made and ignore the context of any replies you have had.

McIntosh
05-11-2014, 07:55 AM
I would suggest that your opening sentence is somewhat contradicted by your second paragraph.
Sadly, I wish it was my friend

Hibrandenburg
05-11-2014, 08:05 AM
Great post. I am saddened by some of the responses. Soldiers do what is asked of them by their political masters. They are not well paid and often are literally in the line of fire. While I respect that some people may have problems with political decisions to debate whether Hibernian were right to give a few free tickets to serving forces, as a token of respect for those who sacrificed everything they had, is beyond he pail. I salute our brave boys. Well done Hibenian.

Our political masters, we vote them in so the buck stops with us.

Argylehibby
05-11-2014, 08:14 AM
Eh, no. I don't agree with the publicity complete with photoshoot including current members of the armed forces. Remembrance in my book is remembrance of those who have given their lives in wars since WW1 serving in the UK services. The problem with free tickets in my eyes is that through giving service personnel a higher status than any other UK citizen it gives tacit acceptance to every conflict they've fought in. I accept others do not hold that view and that's fine. I'd personally prefer the club to wear a white poppy with the red one which would suggest the club supports a peaceful future and an end to war but that's never going to happen.

If the majority of Hibs fans want to give current service personnel free tickets to show their appreciation then why not do it on the game nearest the new armed forces day that has been created recently? That would separate Remembrance from any current convicts and the inevitable political fallout they have.

But it's not just current servicemen and woman though, it is open to veterans as well and they wil be there on the day too.

McIntosh
05-11-2014, 08:16 AM
No its not, IMO.

Its about our club, choosing to endorse something that, clearly, not all of its fans agree with. This isn't about remembrance per se, its about our club doing organised remembrance and giving money to a particular charity.
If this thread is anything to go by - a very small but vocal minority. Can I ask you, do you feel any compassion for soliders, sailors or air men and women and I assume you do, how with the anniversary of the great calamity looming would you commenerate that?

McIntosh
05-11-2014, 08:20 AM
Modern day soldiers dont have to do anything. They dont have to be soldiers. They do it for their wages.
An 'interesting' point - most people in life have to do jobs that they do not want to and otherwise would not do because they have to support.....their families.

McIntosh
05-11-2014, 08:35 AM
Wow!

Suzy are you used the word disingenuous correctly? Where are my posts underhand, untruthful or deceitful? I am delighted to be a member of St Pats and welcome their inclusive stance - which means open to all persuasions and views. I accept my original choice of name was inappropriate and hence the change from various private communications with the branch. To say I am effectively not a good fit for the branch, well speak to Gordon and Robert who know me well. Proud member and happy to continue the link between our club and our spiritual home. Feel free to chat to me at the next meeting.

What is our 'spiritual home'? I always considered it to be Easter Road or Leith?

Lucius Apuleius
05-11-2014, 08:36 AM
[/B]

Yes they do, and the don't get special treatment either (well, i cant speak for firemen but I do know about nurses)

I don't know about nurses, but then again I have never heard of any who have lost their lives in the line of duty. I am sure if there are some you will let me know. I do know a bit about firemen and any fireman who is severely injured in the line of duty will be well looked after by the union. Probability is dependant upon the circumstances there would be a public plea as well. The bottom line is the armed forces do a job to protect us. Nobody should go to work expecting not to come home again. I have worked in some of the most hostile environments in the world as a civilian, thank **** the soldiers had guns us all I'll say.

CentreLine
05-11-2014, 11:23 AM
Sorry, i just see they Army faces as Rangers fans.:agree:

That's a shame. Now I know we are concentrating on WWI right now but let's put this is perspective here. War-time does not have or respect football bias but if we must go down that route let's see how many specifically Hibs related tragedies we can come up with . I'll start the ball rolling with three:

WWI - Many hundreds of serving soldier Hibs fans were involved and killed in the troop-train disaster at Gretna.

WWII - Prolific Hibs striker Patrick Donoghue (My wife's grandfather) gave up his football to enlist as a rear gunner in the RAF. Statistically one of the shortest life expectancy positions in any posting. Yes, he too died in action.

WWII - My father, to be fair not a football supporter at all but who took my brother and myself along to ER as children, was seriously wounded suffering life changing injuries in Sicily 1943.

I think we need to get real about the attitudes we adopt sometimes and engage the brain a little more before attacking the keyboard. There are very good reasons to remember the bravery and sacrifice of all people caught up in wars. That is what remembrance is about, not narrow minded or with a fixed focus. So make it whatever you want it to be, just don't be so dismissive of the feelings and convictions of others.

The Baldmans Comb
05-11-2014, 11:36 AM
I have never seen 'our boys' as anything other than the 3 M's which is ''missionaries,mercenaries and murderers'' as the armed forces attract a diverse collection of very brave decent people to career soldiers to some utter filth.

Rather indifferent to the Hibs iniative to be honest:agree:.

khib70
05-11-2014, 11:50 AM
I have never seen 'our boys' as anything other than the 3 M's which is ''missionaries,mercenaries and murderers'' as the armed forces attract a diverse collection of very brave decent people to career soldiers to some utter filth.

Rather indifferent to the Hibs iniative to be honest:agree:.
Utterly disgraceful post. There's been some serious ***** been posted on this thread, but that's just plain offenisve and I am reporting it as such.

Have a word with yourself FFS

Argylehibby
05-11-2014, 12:03 PM
That's a shame. Now I know we are concentrating on WWI right now but let's put this is perspective here. War-time does not have or respect football bias but if we must go down that route let's see how many specifically Hibs related tragedies we can come up with . I'll start the ball rolling with three:

WWI - Many hundreds of serving soldier Hibs fans were involved and killed in the troop-train disaster at Gretna.

WWII - Prolific Hibs striker Patrick Donoghue (My wife's grandfather) gave up his football to enlist as a rear gunner in the RAF. Statistically one of the shortest life expectancy positions in any posting. Yes, he too died in action.

WWII - My father, to be fair not a football supporter at all but who took my brother and myself along to ER as children, was seriously wounded suffering life changing injuries in Sicily 1943.

I think we need to get real about the attitudes we adopt sometimes and engage the brain a little more before attacking the keyboard. There are very good reasons to remember the bravery and sacrifice of all people caught up in wars. That is what remembrance is about, not narrow minded or with a fixed focus. So make it whatever you want it to be, just don't be so dismissive of the feelings and convictions of others.

I may be completely wrong on this but I was told previously that there were 3 Hibs players on the gretna train as well as the hundreds of hibs fans. No doubt someone will confirm one way or the other shortly. On the comment about Rangers fans though it clearly never crossed the mind of the person posting it that they may be Hibs fans who read this forum.

Mikey
05-11-2014, 12:06 PM
Right folks, this one has run its course.