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Forza Fred
02-11-2014, 09:39 AM
Has been released by mutual consent from his contract by Brisbane Roar 3 games into the season after failing to turn up to play as an over age player in a youth match.

Rumours-and that is all they are, that he could not get on with Ian Ferguson who was the assistant there.

The statement basically said he had been released to pursue further football opportunities.

Broken Gnome
02-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Has been released by mutual consent from his contract by Brisbane Roar 3 games into the season after failing to turn up to play as an over age player in a youth match.

Rumours-and that is all they are, that he could not get on with Ian Ferguson who was the assistant there.

The statement basically said he had been released to pursue further football opportunities.

Signing for Hearts. Fact.

SaulGoodman
02-11-2014, 10:16 AM
Signing for Hearts. Fact.

Let's boo him.

heretoday
02-11-2014, 10:44 AM
Let's boo him.

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Holmesdale Hibs
02-11-2014, 11:14 AM
Has been released by mutual consent from his contract by Brisbane Roar 3 games into the season after failing to turn up to play as an over age player in a youth match.

Rumours-and that is all they are, that he could not get on with Ian Ferguson who was the assistant there.

The statement basically said he had been released to pursue further football opportunities.

If Ferguson is as much of a prick off the pitch as he was on it then I'm not surprised.

Johnny_Leith
02-11-2014, 12:03 PM
Good player who was capable of jaw dropping moments of quality

keep the faith
02-11-2014, 12:44 PM
Good player who I really enjoyed watching in a hibs shirt.

Nutmegged
02-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Best midfielder I've seen at Hibs in 25 years and considering I loved Brown, Thomson, Boozy and Pat McGinlay thats saying something, was a superb footballer

Iceman1875
02-11-2014, 01:27 PM
Shocked we actually signed a player of his calibre considering only a few years before he was playing champions league with Celtic and United.


At Easter Road we play...

StarMan10
02-11-2014, 01:27 PM
For the first 9 months of hibs career he was top notch. Faded from then (as did the team) and many were content with him leaving. Scott Allan reminds me of him abit, in that both are always looking for that killer ball which is great to see.

greenlex
02-11-2014, 01:29 PM
Shocked we actually signed a player of his calibre considering only a few years before he was playing champions league with Celtic and United.


At Easter Road we play...

Petries fault!!!

Michael
02-11-2014, 01:38 PM
For the first 9 months of hibs career he was top notch. Faded from then (as did the team) and many were content with him leaving. Scott Allan reminds me of him abit, in that both are always looking for that killer ball which is great to see.

Miller & McBride were a superb midfield partnership...and then all of a sudden their form fell of a cliff. Weird.

NadeAteMyLunch!
02-11-2014, 01:54 PM
For the first 9 months of hibs career he was top notch. Faded from then (as did the team) and many were content with him leaving. Scott Allan reminds me of him abit, in that both are always looking for that killer ball which is great to see.

Said the same recently. Similar signings in that both had recently played at a much higher level. Equally surprised when both were announced

Jpdhfc
02-11-2014, 02:09 PM
Best midfielder I've seen at Hibs in 25 years and considering I loved Brown, Thomson, Boozy and Pat McGinlay thats saying something, was a superb footballer

Really better than latapy

chinaman
02-11-2014, 02:29 PM
Couldn't lace boozys boots

Cabbage East
02-11-2014, 02:38 PM
Best midfielder I've seen at Hibs in 25 years and considering I loved Brown, Thomson, Boozy and Pat McGinlay thats saying something, was a superb footballer

Better than Sauzee and Latapy?

erin go bragh
02-11-2014, 02:38 PM
Best midfielder I've seen at Hibs in 25 years and considering I loved Brown, Thomson, Boozy and Pat McGinlay thats saying something, was a superb footballer

Latapy was the best by a mile .

Ggtth

Ozyhibby
02-11-2014, 02:41 PM
Liam Miller was the start of the slow pedestrian football we have been watching these last few years.

Diclonius
02-11-2014, 02:47 PM
Miller & McBride were a superb midfield partnership...and then all of a sudden their form fell of a cliff. Weird.

McBride got an injury he never recovered from and that was that.

Hank Schrader
02-11-2014, 04:56 PM
Couldn't lace boozys boots

Liam Miller is a far better footballer than Beuzelin.

Stevie Reid
02-11-2014, 05:06 PM
Liam Miller had a handful of games where he was peerless, but he was a disappointment overall. Should have been an 8/10 player every week, but he barely stood out for much of his time here.

Nowhere near the best midfielder we've ever had.

Pretty Boy
02-11-2014, 05:11 PM
Liam Miller had a handful of games where he was peerless, but he was a disappointment overall. Should have been an 8/10 player every week, but he barely stood out for much of his time here.

Nowhere near the best midfielder we've ever had.

That's my memory of Miller, struggling to remember the player a few on here seem to be.

He had a few games in which he showed what he was capable off and was undoubtedly a talented player but overall he had more games that could kindly be described as mediocre than he had outstanding ones.

His career has been something of a nomadic one for a reason.

NadeAteMyLunch!
02-11-2014, 05:12 PM
He was very good for us on his day but not even in the same league as Sauzee, Latapy, Brown, Thomson and Boozy. Not even close

California-Hibs
02-11-2014, 05:15 PM
Liam Miller was an outstanding footballer for us. I was shocked when we signed him. As mentioned, he was still young and had been playing Champions League football with Man United and Celtic, not too shabby at all ion your CV!

He scored a few beauties for us too. He was great to watch, rarely wasted a pass and always looked to get forward. Him, Allan, Robertson and Mcgeough in the midfield!? Would be scary how strong we'd be..

Golden Bear
02-11-2014, 05:19 PM
That's my memory of Miller, struggling to remember the player a few on here seem to be.

He had a few games in which he showed what he was capable off and was undoubtedly a talented player but overall he had more games that could kindly be described as mediocre than he had outstanding ones.

His career has been something of a nomadic one for a reason.

:agree:

Not doubting his football ability but he had far too many appearances for Hibs where I got the impression that he was simply going through the motions. I suspect that his apparent lack of desire was one of the reasons we managed to sign the guy in the first place.

Stevie Reid
02-11-2014, 05:19 PM
I would consider Miller's Hibs career as much of a success as Kevin Thomson's second stint. Exciting on paper, but a disappointment in reality, with neither player anywhere near as influential as they should have been.

Smartie
02-11-2014, 05:37 PM
Liam Miller had a handful of games where he was peerless, but he was a disappointment overall. Should have been an 8/10 player every week, but he barely stood out for much of his time here.

Nowhere near the best midfielder we've ever had.

Exactly my opinion of him too. When he wanted to play well he could - his performance at Parkhead when Danny Galbraith scored the winner was maybe the best midfield performance I've seen from a Hibs player - as you say, peerless.

It happened way too infrequently for someone of his undoubted ability, though there may have been mitigating factors. He was good when supported by his mate McBride, and when he got his head up to play in decent players up front and out wide he was superb. McBride's injury and the brutal asset-stripping of the first team and the replacement of decent and good players with hopelessly inferior alternatives took its toll on him. The better the players around him and the bigger the stage the better he was. Unfortunately a bad time for him to be at ER then.

Latapy was the best for me. Never gave the ball away and it wasn't always a case of him taking the easy option either. Magnificent player.

Stevie Reid
02-11-2014, 05:51 PM
Most obvious selection of midfielders to be way, way better than Miller: -

Sauzee
Latapy
Collins
Brown
Thomson
McGinlay
O'Neill

I'd also class the likes of Zemmama, Claros, Stewart and Boozy as far better players for Hibs. Also add in John O'Neil, there are many others.

GreenOnions
02-11-2014, 06:40 PM
Liam Miller is a far better footballer than Beuzelin.

:confused: Miller's reputation derives from some early career transfers that were based on potential more than anything else.

There are lots of people who've played a few games for Celtic or a couple for Manchester United (even in the CL) and then gone to smaller teams because ultimately - they didn't have the right attributes for the higher level.

Don't get me wrong -clearly that's no disgrace. Liam Miller was a good player but not as good as his early career transfers suggested.

Beuzelin was more of a late developer IMHO and, if he had shown when he was 18/19 the skills he did at Hibs - or if he hadn't suffered that serious injury when at Easter Road, he might have had a shot at the big time like Miller.

Beuzelin was a class act and helped people around him play - particularly in the way he could comfortably receive a pass in a tight situation and then move the ball on. He was crucial to the style of football the team played at that time because his technical skills made it easier for us to pass the ball out from the back through him.

Miller doesn't seem to have lived up to the potential consistently anywhere he's been - although there may be various reasons for that. Beuzelin was superb to watch and integral to the team's style of play. More importantly though - I think he delivered consistently over an extended period which elevates him above Miller.

hibees 7062
02-11-2014, 07:10 PM
Most obvious selection of midfielders to be way, way better than Miller: -

Sauzee
Latapy
Collins
Brown
Thomson
McGinlay
O'Neill

I'd also class the likes of Zemmama, Claros, Stewart and Boozy as far better players for Hibs. Also add in John O'Neil, there are many others.

McGeough and Allan are better :agree:

Ken
02-11-2014, 07:21 PM
Can't believe people are comparing Liam Miller to Latapy.

Latapy was 100 times better and on a consistent basis.

Don't get me wrong Liam Miller was decent enough, but nowhere near Hibs' top 5 midfielders in the last 20 years.

For me....

1. Latapy
2. Brown
3. Sauzee (as a midfielder)
4. Thomson
5. Boozy

For the avoidance of doubt, Sauzee as a defender was the best player I've ever seen in a Hibs shirt (25 years)

CRAZYHIBBY
02-11-2014, 07:59 PM
Miller couldn't lace latapys boots

weonlywon6-2
02-11-2014, 08:05 PM
Best midfielder I've seen at Hibs in 25 years and considering I loved Brown, Thomson, Boozy and Pat McGinlay thats saying something, was a superb footballer

I dont look back and remember much about him,which says to me he wasnt tbat great

Cool_Hand_Luke
02-11-2014, 08:12 PM
I dont look back and remember much about him,which says to me he wasnt tbat great

This sums it up for me too

All the other players mentioned i can remember at least one moment of genius of the top of my head (maybe Thomson being the exception - who i thought was a great player but more steady and reliable than producing moments of genius), i cant remember that from Miller and although i thought he was decent and was happy he signed, i was slightly disappointed he never lived up to my expectations and wasnt devasted when he left.

A previous post said he scored a few beauties for us...i cant remember one.

ekhibee
02-11-2014, 08:45 PM
This is going to sound harsh, but apart from literally a handful of games Miller was very ordinary indeed, and I'm sorry, I didn't rate McBride at all, for the most part he was awful in my opinion. Miller had been a very good player with Celtic, although he'd left quite suddenly, I think he did the same down south. There's obviously some kind of issue with the guy, and despite his ability he rarely, in my opinion showed it. But as other people have said I suppose, if he was consistently excellent he wouldn't have been playing for Hibs very long.

Swedish hibee
02-11-2014, 08:46 PM
Latapy was the best by a mile.


Ahhhh, memories :smug:

bingo70
02-11-2014, 08:51 PM
Can't believe people are comparing Liam Miller to Latapy.

Latapy was 100 times better and on a consistent basis.

Don't get me wrong Liam Miller was decent enough, but nowhere near Hibs' top 5 midfielders in the last 20 years.

For me....

1. Latapy
2. Brown
3. Sauzee (as a midfielder)
4. Thomson
5. Boozy

For the avoidance of doubt, Sauzee as a defender was the best player I've ever seen in a Hibs shirt (25 years)

You've said people but is it not just one person?

Nobody in their right mind could compare the two of them.

Ken
02-11-2014, 09:11 PM
You've said people but is it not just one person?

Nobody in their right mind could compare the two of them.

No

Kato
02-11-2014, 09:20 PM
This is going to sound harsh, but apart from literally a handful of games Miller was very ordinary indeed, and I'm sorry, I didn't rate McBride at all, for the post part he was awful in my opinion. Miller had been a very good player with Celtic, although he'd left quite suddenly, I think he did the same down south. There's obviously some kind of issue with the guy, and despite his ability he rarely, in my opinion showed it. But as other people have said I suppose, if he was consistently excellent he wouldn't have been playing for Hibs very long.

Not harsh at all. Miller was OK on the odd occasion - that is all. His application and level of consistency puts him way, way down on any list of Hibs midfeilders I'd compile.

Jonnyboy
02-11-2014, 09:40 PM
I liked Miller and thought him capable of some great football but it didn't bother me when he left, which I guess says it all from my point of view

Speedy
02-11-2014, 09:56 PM
Liam Miller was an outstanding footballer for us. I was shocked when we signed him. As mentioned, he was still young and had been playing Champions League football with Man United and Celtic, not too shabby at all ion your CV!

He scored a few beauties for us too. He was great to watch, rarely wasted a pass and always looked to get forward. Him, Allan, Robertson and Mcgeough in the midfield!? Would be scary how strong we'd be..

He was in his late twenties and it had been a long time since he played Champions League. He was a Championship player for most of his career.

(Still a good signing on paper for us but I think the quality of his CV is being somewhat overstated)

MWHIBBIES
02-11-2014, 10:04 PM
Decent player, very average with Hibs outside of his first few months. When the going got tough he went missing. Not even close to Brown, Thomson, Boozy, Claros etc

WellingtonHibby
02-11-2014, 10:28 PM
Murray on for Miller :confused:

GreenOnions
02-11-2014, 10:34 PM
Murray on for Miller :confused:

Miller's performance affected by wind :rolleyes:

highland hibbee
03-11-2014, 08:08 AM
Can't believe people are comparing Liam Miller to Latapy.

Latapy was 100 times better and on a consistent basis.

Don't get me wrong Liam Miller was decent enough, but nowhere near Hibs' top 5 midfielders in the last 20 years.

For me....

1. Latapy
2. Brown
3. Sauzee (as a midfielder)
4. Thomson
5. Boozy

For the avoidance of doubt, Sauzee as a defender was the best player I've ever seen in a Hibs shirt (25 years)
Totally agree Re Suazee,. Collins was a cracking player and gave us an extra year when he could have left. I never rated McBride, tbh thought he was gash, Grant Brebner when he came on loan was a very talented midfielder and John O'Neil was massively under rated never gave less than a 7 performance and had a great game in the 6-2 against the cheats. I always thought Thomson made the team tick in the period of Brown, Deeks Etc. and most folk will probably disagree but Rankin was a far better player than he was given credit for, think his problem was he was too professional and didnt spend his afternoons in the bookies, Burger King etc! But your top 5 is pretty good!

Smartie
03-11-2014, 11:19 AM
This is going to sound harsh, but apart from literally a handful of games Miller was very ordinary indeed, and I'm sorry, I didn't rate McBride at all, for the post part he was awful in my opinion. Miller had been a very good player with Celtic, although he'd left quite suddenly, I think he did the same down south. There's obviously some kind of issue with the guy, and despite his ability he rarely, in my opinion showed it. But as other people have said I suppose, if he was consistently excellent he wouldn't have been playing for Hibs very long.

I don't think you're being harsh on Miller but I do think you're being harsh on McBride.

Whilst it's laughable that Miller is being compared to some of our best ever midfielders I'd never say that McBride was one of the worst and he wasn't at any point "awful" for us.

He was excellent at what he did - taking the ball off the centre halves and giving it to more creative players in better positions. No-frills really and it sounds easy but it was the lack of a player that could/would do this to any effect that has led to much of our "hoofball" over the years, rather than a direct instruction from various managers (with the exception of Butcher.)

Onion
03-11-2014, 11:27 AM
Miller couldn't lace latapys boots

:agree: Miller had a decent first 6 months at Hibs, then showed everyone why he was at a club like Hibs :cb Latapy and Sauzee are the only Hibs players who'd get into Eddie Turnbull's team. We really had no right to have these two stars at ER - still don't know how Red Lex pulled that off

Stokesy's on fire
03-11-2014, 08:01 PM
Liam Miller was a great player! Not as good as latapy but who is as good as Latapy? And will we see the likes again? He was different candy!

If Liam Miller came back to Hibs I would be a happy Hibee. Bring him home Stubbs!! He was in my opinion given a raw deal by our support.

ekhibee
03-11-2014, 08:22 PM
I don't think you're being harsh on Miller but I do think you're being harsh on McBride.

Whilst it's laughable that Miller is being compared to some of our best ever midfielders I'd never say that McBride was one of the worst and he wasn't at any point "awful" for us.

He was excellent at what he did - taking the ball off the centre halves and giving it to more creative players in better positions. No-frills really and it sounds easy but it was the lack of a player that could/would do this to any effect that has led to much of our "hoofball" over the years, rather than a direct instruction from various managers (with the exception of Butcher.)
Different perspectives I suppose Smartie, to me he was slow, his passing was usually poor and didn't find the players he was aiming for. I suppose there might be an argument for him being played out of position every so often, but, to me anyway, on reflection he was similar to Patrick Cregg who also contributed virtually nothing to Hibs but was a decent player for Falkirk, just like McBride.

TheFamous1875
03-11-2014, 08:27 PM
:agree: Miller had a decent first 6 months at Hibs, then showed everyone why he was at a club like Hibs :cb Latapy and Sauzee are the only Hibs players who'd get into Eddie Turnbull's team. We really had no right to have these two stars at ER - still don't know how Red Lex pulled that off

Who would they replace, like? :detective:

Kato
03-11-2014, 09:27 PM
Liam Miller was a great player! Not as good as latapy but who is as good as Latapy? And will we see the likes again? He was different candy!

If Liam Miller came back to Hibs I would be a happy Hibee. Bring him home Stubbs!! He was in my opinion given a raw deal by our support.

Correct, right into the dream team with Stuart Turnbull up front and Roddy McKenzie in goals.

I'm at a loss to remember exactly what Miller brought to the side. We achieved nothing when he was here.

Broken Gnome
03-11-2014, 09:29 PM
Correct, right into the dream team with Stuart Turnbull up front and Roddy McKenzie in goals.

I'm at a loss to remember exactly what Miller brought to the side. We achieved nothing when he was here.

I know the lofty heights we're currently scaling make fourth placed finishes to qualify for Europe seem nothing, but not entirely accurate...

Sir David Gray
03-11-2014, 09:36 PM
He nearly signed for Hearts so he can GTF.

Allegedly.

DC_Hibs
03-11-2014, 09:40 PM
Bring him home Stubbs!! He was in my opinion given a raw deal by our support.

By the time we are able to sign him he will be a bawhair away from his 34th birthday.

This thread's a classic. I had to google Liam Miller to make sure we were all talking about the same guy.
Decent enough with the occasional game where he looked good but didn't impress considering the Celtc and Man U history.

As for McBride, he did a reasonable job but was pretty average and found his level.....albeit a level above us currently.

Kato
03-11-2014, 09:41 PM
I know the lofty heights we're currently scaling make fourth placed finishes to qualify for Europe seem nothing, but not entirely accurate...

With all due respect but, 4th? Meh.

Jamesie
03-11-2014, 09:42 PM
I dont look back and remember much about him,which says to me he wasnt tbat great

I remember when we signed Miller and Stokes within (IIRC) weeks of each other. Probably the last time I was really excited by Hibs.

jdships
03-11-2014, 09:55 PM
For me Liam M was never more than a "7/10 player "
He "flattered to deceive" which is proved , I think, by the fact that so many posters can't remember much about him :greengrin

Viva_Palmeiras
04-11-2014, 06:46 AM
I remember when we signed Miller and Stokes within (IIRC) weeks of each other. Probably the last time I was really excited by Hibs.

When Griffiths hit the back of the next for the fourth against Falkirk? (Albeit a temporary boost?)

superfurryhibby
04-11-2014, 04:29 PM
Who would they replace, like? :detective:

Thread hijack apologies but that cannae be ignored! I'd drop Jim Black for Sauzee and have him and Stanton swapping positions in the centre mid- defence as the tempo of the game demanded. Lately would be accommodated after injuries and suspension?:wink:

jacomo
04-11-2014, 05:26 PM
Liam Miller was an outstanding footballer for us. I was shocked when we signed him. As mentioned, he was still young and had been playing Champions League football with Man United and Celtic, not too shabby at all ion your CV!

He scored a few beauties for us too. He was great to watch, rarely wasted a pass and always looked to get forward. Him, Allan, Robertson and Mcgeough in the midfield!? Would be scary how strong we'd be..

Are you related to him by any chance? He had a great pedigree but your recollection of his time in a Hibs shirt is massively over the top.

portyhibernian
04-11-2014, 05:38 PM
He was decent nothing more nothing less.

Big_Franck
04-11-2014, 05:42 PM
Liam Miller was average for us in my opinion. After a positive start he was a passenger in a lot of games and as someone else above said we soon seen why he had signed for a club at our level.

Wasn't bothered in the slightest when he left which says it all.

Graham Law
04-11-2014, 11:14 PM
Has been released by mutual consent from his contract by Brisbane Roar 3 games into the season after failing to turn up to play as an over age player in a youth match.

Rumours-and that is all they are, that he could not get on with Ian Ferguson who was the assistant there.

The statement basically said he had been released to pursue further football opportunities.


If Ferguson is as much of a prick off the pitch as he was on it then I'm not surprised.

Hey Fred , Ian Ferguson is the head coach at former A league club North QLD fury and not assistant at Brisbane . He is also actually a decent lad as well and not anything like wha you would rightly expect if you looked at him as a player.

He may not be to happy next year though when he realises two of his best players will not be there next year Ha Ha
GGTTH

allezsauzee
04-11-2014, 11:40 PM
I liked Liam Miller but to say that he was in the same class as Le God, Russell or Broonie for us is way off the mark

brisbanehibs
08-11-2014, 09:17 AM
I watched Liam play for Brisbane Roar a lot last season and early part of this one. Struck me as quite lazy, hid in games frequently and was unpopular with the support in my section who had him down as a non trier. And we won the comp last year! He was mince this year in poor team and threw toys out pram when dropped a couple of weeks ago. Glad he is gone. For me he is the last sort of player Hibs need. Has the heart of a mouse and I think we've had enough of that type of player these last few years....IMHO only.

Forza Fred
08-11-2014, 11:47 AM
Hey Fred , Ian Ferguson is the head coach at former A league club North QLD fury and not assistant at Brisbane . He is also actually a decent lad as well and not anything like wha you would rightly expect if you looked at him as a player.

He may not be to happy next year though when he realises two of his best players will not be there next year Ha Ha
GGTTH

I actually thought Feruson was still with Perth, but was only reporting what I read in the local press.

.Sean.
08-11-2014, 11:58 AM
Bang average. Had far better, had far worse.

Golden Bear
08-11-2014, 12:09 PM
I watched Liam play for Brisbane Roar a lot last season and early part of this one. Struck me as quite lazy, hid in games frequently and was unpopular with the support in my section who had him down as a non trier. And we won the comp last year! He was mince this year in poor team and threw toys out pram when dropped a couple of weeks ago. Glad he is gone. For me he is the last sort of player Hibs need. Has the heart of a mouse and I think we've had enough of that type of player these last few years....IMHO only.

Ah well - it seems some things have never changed.

:coffee:

KeithTheHibby
08-11-2014, 12:47 PM
He was good for half a seasn under Hughes just like the entire team before the humping by the old Huns 4-1 around xmas time.

Baader
08-11-2014, 08:40 PM
Opinions eh?! Was seriously underwhelmed watching him for us. Undoubted ability but sadly the heart and desire of a mouse.

SunshineOnLeith
09-11-2014, 02:07 AM
Definitely one of the most exciting signing announcements we've made - I genuinely assumed it was just someone I'd never heard of with the same name until reading the official site.

But his actual performances, meh.

Steve-O
09-11-2014, 02:26 AM
I actually thought Feruson was still with Perth, but was only reporting what I read in the local press.

Bizarre as Ferguson has never been at Brisbane Roar.

I think Ferguson signed Miller when at Perth too?

Centre Hawf
09-11-2014, 03:08 AM
I'm amazed as many regard him as highly as they do. I personally thought he was a total chicken of a footballer. Had a good amount of ability but no application and not an ounce of hunger so it was all for nothing. Was glad to see the back of him.

Danderhall Hibs
09-11-2014, 11:47 AM
He was good for half a seasn under Hughes just like the entire team before the humping by the old Huns 4-1 around xmas time.

It was the 3-0 at Ibrox in February (14th I think) that kicked off the decline. You've gone 2 months early.

Stevie Reid
09-11-2014, 03:32 PM
It was the 3-0 at Ibrox in February (14th I think) that kicked off the decline. You've gone 2 months early.

Correct. In late January we took 9 points in a week - 5-1 (H) v Hamilton, 2-1 (A) v Celtic and 2-1 (H) v St. Mirren. In the whole month we won 3, drew 1 and lost 1

eastmainsmsh
09-11-2014, 03:33 PM
No doubting his ability but never fulfilled his potential shouldve done more