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View Full Version : Pat Fenlon one year on



21.05.2016
31-10-2014, 02:50 PM
One year ago today we were knocked out the league cup by the **** and that proved ultimately the straw that broke the camels back for Pat Fenlon. That was where it all started to spiral incredibly out of control. From then on the club went into absolute free fall under Butcher, one of the worst periods in the club history that saw us embarrassingly relegated.

Amazing really what can happen in a year. We have gone from having a team with no fight, no heart and no interest to a team playing good, attacking football and showing some passion.


:flag:

RicheyWhite
31-10-2014, 02:53 PM
One year ago today we were knocked out the league cup by the **** and that proved ultimately the straw that broke the camels back for Pat Fenlon. That was where it all started to spiral incredibly out of control. From then on the club went into absolute free fall under Butcher, one of the worst periods in the club history that saw us embarrassingly relegated.

Amazing really what can happen in a year. We have gone from having a team with no fight, no heart and no interest to a team playing good, attacking football and showing some passion.


:flag:

Christ that feels longer than a year ago. We've all aged by ten times that.

LeithBoozy
31-10-2014, 03:02 PM
Christ that feels longer than a year ago. We've all aged by ten times that.

Hear Hear. :rolleyes:

21.05.2016
31-10-2014, 03:05 PM
Christ that feels longer than a year ago. We've all aged by ten times that.

Tell me about it! :rolleyes:

Hibernia&Alba
31-10-2014, 03:10 PM
Well, it's been an 'interesting' twelve months; if interesting can be a euphemism for disastrous! Hopefully we've experienced our rock bottom and are now on the upward climb. There's a massive journey ahead but recently a few chinks of light seem to have appeared.


P.S. Butcher you ****

greenpaper55
31-10-2014, 03:26 PM
The only trouble is we are still paying dumb and dumber for another two years ! I keep praying that they will get a job soon but it looks like they are the Rab C Nesbit of football !.

Pretty Boy
31-10-2014, 03:33 PM
Tbh it was time for Fenlon to go, no one could have imagined the caranage that Butcher and his ****witted side kick wpuld cause.

Fenlons a funny one because whilst he oversaw cup finals and European humpings he ultimately got us there in the 1st place. The football was mind numbing though, in it's own way it was as bad as Butcher yet it saw us scrape out ugly wins which is what we really needed at the end of last season.

I wish Pat well because he gave it his all and wanted what waa best for the club which is far more than can be said for his predecessor and successor.

Time to look forward though because we have the makings of a very good manager in the here and now.

HibbyAndy
31-10-2014, 03:38 PM
Battered them that night...How many Derbys will it take to give them an absolute humping and beat them ?!

They truly are spawny barstewards.

Robinho08
31-10-2014, 04:05 PM
The only trouble is we are still paying dumb and dumber for another two years ! I keep praying that they will get a job soon but it looks like they are the Rab C Nesbit of football !.

That's pissing me off too!

Robinho08
31-10-2014, 04:06 PM
Battered them that night...How many Derbys will it take to give them an absolute humping and beat them ?!

They truly are spawny barstewards.

We battered them for 20 odd minutes. There was only going to be one winner when they scored.

Leithenhibby
31-10-2014, 04:21 PM
Tbh it was time for Fenlon to go, no one could have imagined the caranage that Butcher and his ****witted side kick wpuld cause.

Fenlons a funny one because whilst he oversaw cup finals and European humpings he ultimately got us there in the 1st place. The football was mind numbing though, in it's own way it was as bad as Butcher yet it saw us scrape out ugly wins which is what we really needed at the end of last season.

I wish Pat well because he gave it his all and wanted what waa best for the club which is far more than can be said for his predecessor and successor.

Time to look forward though because we have the makings of a very good manager in the here and now.

He did and it could have, and should have been better. I can't remember HFC ever having so many players on loan that didn't give a £uck about our club................

HH81
31-10-2014, 04:22 PM
I liked Pat but I think it was time to leave.

Would wish him all the best for the future.

Lets not forget he got us to two cup finals.

21.05.2016
31-10-2014, 04:26 PM
Battered them that night...How many Derbys will it take to give them an absolute humping and beat them ?!

They truly are spawny barstewards.

:agree:

greenginger
31-10-2014, 04:38 PM
One year ago today we were knocked out the league cup by the **** and that proved ultimately the straw that broke the camels back for Pat Fenlon. That was where it all started to spiral incredibly out of control. From then on the club went into absolute free fall under Butcher, one of the worst periods in the club history that saw us embarrassingly relegated.

Amazing really what can happen in a year. We have gone from having a team with no fight, no heart and no interest to a team playing good, attacking football and showing some passion.


:flag:

Not quite accurate. Butcher's first 8 league games were 3 wins, 4 draws, and 1 defeat.

Then the imbecile tells the squad they are not good enough and will all be out the door at the end of the season.

Absolute @rse of a man.

21.05.2016
31-10-2014, 04:42 PM
He did and it could have, and should have been better. I can't remember HFC ever having so many players on loan that didn't give a £uck about our club................

Exactly, bunch of gutless no marks that led us into our most humiliating defeats and ultimately relegation then collected their pay packets and slinked off out the back door without a care in the world. No heart, no passion, no fight - just wage thieves. I even remember that ****er Matt Docherty telling a hibs fan on twitter after the 2012 cup final that he "couldn't give a ****" - says it all really! Then you had pictures of some of them up town after the cup finals, no respect and they clearly couldn't have gave a **** about the result or felt any sort of hurt.

I actually WANT players to hurt after a defeat, it shows they care and have some pride for not only the club but themselves. I want them to hurt so that they strive so hard to never feel that way again. Like I say, too many of the players we have had over recent years have shown an "awck well" shrug the shoulders attitude to defeat. Each and every player should know what it means to be a part of this great club and how they should be playing with passion and pride. I feel Stubbs has started to intall a bit of that into the current team. A team with desire and playing for the jersey is obvious to see just as easily as it is to spot a disinterested player/team.

ancient hibee
31-10-2014, 04:45 PM
Exactly, bunch of gutless no marks that led us into our most humiliating defeats and ultimately relegation then collected their pay packets and slinked off out the back door without a care in the world. No heart, no passion, no fight - just wage thieves. I even remember that ****er Matt Docherty telling a hibs fan on twitter after the 2012 cup final that he "couldn't give a ****" - says it all really! Then you had pictures of some of them up town after the cup finals, no respect and they clearly couldn't have gave a **** about the result or felt any sort of hurt.

I actually WANT players to hurt after a defeat, it shows they care and have some pride for not only the club but themselves. I want them to hurt so that they strive so hard to never feel that way again. Like I say, too many of the players we have had over recent years have shown an "awck well" shrug the shoulders attitude to defeat. Each and every player should know what it means to be a part of this great club and how they should be playing with passion and pride. I feel Stubbs has started to intall a bit of that into the current team. A team with desire and playing for the jersey is obvious to see just as easily as it is to spot a disinterested player/team.

Thanks Terry-glad you're still around:greengrin

21.05.2016
31-10-2014, 04:46 PM
Not quite accurate. Butcher's first 8 league games were 3 wins, 4 draws, and 1 defeat.

Then the imbecile tells the squad they are not good enough and will all be out the door at the end of the season.

Absolute @rse of a man.

That is true tbf, all started to go tits up after the new year derby, absolute free fall from their on. That was Butchers biggest mistake, telling more than half the squad that they weren't good enough and would be out the door at the next opportunity. Totally broke the morale and it was clear that the players were no longer giving 100% for him.

07hibee
31-10-2014, 04:46 PM
We battered them for 20 odd minutes. There was only going to be one winner when they scored.

It was a draw though?

HibbyAndy
31-10-2014, 04:47 PM
It was a draw though?



He's oan aboot last Halloween's game.

07hibee
31-10-2014, 04:57 PM
He's oan aboot last Halloween's game.

Oh sorry,my mistake

hibee62
31-10-2014, 05:26 PM
For me, Fenlon had built a solid but unspectacular team who were never going to finish top 3 but never going to go downand, ultimately dull as dishwater! I was concerned when butcher came in and said the team needed rebuilt as I thought the basis was there, but then he started well. Then, as has been mentioned he sapped all morale and took us down.

I'd have preferred Fenlon to see out the season, take another mediocre 6/7th finish, and give his successor a full summer to add the attacking skill that was missing from that team. Unfortunately that was unlikely to happen.

We also shouldn't tar all the loans with the same brush though, given both Claros and griffiths were on such deals!

Sir David Gray
31-10-2014, 05:30 PM
Battered them that night...How many Derbys will it take to give them an absolute humping and beat them ?!

They truly are spawny barstewards.

Not quite how I remember things to be honest.

We hammered them for the first 20 minutes or so but after Stevenson scored we basically stopped playing and the second half was pretty much a non-event.

hibbydog
31-10-2014, 05:34 PM
Tbh it was time for Fenlon to go, no one could have imagined the caranage that Butcher and his ****witted side kick wpuld cause.

Fenlons a funny one because whilst he oversaw cup finals and European humpings he ultimately got us there in the 1st place. The football was mind numbing though, in it's own way it was as bad as Butcher yet it saw us scrape out ugly wins which is what we really needed at the end of last season.

I wish Pat well because he gave it his all and wanted what waa best for the club which is far more than can be said for his predecessor and successor.

Time to look forward though because we have the makings of a very good manager in the here and now.

Agree.

I really liked wee pat, he was an honest man trying his best in difficult circumstances. But as you say it was clear that he wasn't good enough for where we wanted to go and ended up calling it himself.

Everyone was pleasantly surprised that we managed to get terry butcher in. Equally we were all astounded by how much of a tom hunt he made if it. I hope he chokes.

Green shoots of recovery with Stubbs though....

Pete
31-10-2014, 05:37 PM
Looking back, he should have been binned after the 2012 cup final. It wasn't his fault the way that game panned out but whoever was in charge for that game would have been a dead man walking no matter what. Too many ghosts and never going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

One man was indeed largely responsible for a lot of good things we did the following season. Leigh Griffiths.

I know, PhD hindsight!

NadeAteMyLunch!
31-10-2014, 05:43 PM
That is true tbf, all started to go tits up after the new year derby, absolute free fall from their on. That was Butchers biggest mistake, telling more than half the squad that they weren't good enough and would be out the door at the next opportunity. Totally broke the morale and it was clear that the players were no longer giving 100% for him.

The game that really ****ed us was the game away to Dundee Utd immediately after the derby. 0-2 up after 82 minutes then drew 2-2, including a 90th minute equaliser. There is no doubt in my mind that we would still be in the top league if we had held on that day. It would have been 4 wins on the bounce for the first time in years. Would have been such a boost for the players. Never forget how gutted they looked traipsing off the pitch, looked like they had just lost a cup final. That game absolutely killed us.

NadeAteMyLunch!
31-10-2014, 05:45 PM
Battered them that night...How many Derbys will it take to give them an absolute humping and beat them ?!

They truly are spawny barstewards.

Agreed. Yes, we lost our way a bit after their goal but we should have been about 5-0 up by then. You're literally talking margins of an inch or two. We cracked the post and bar in the first ten mins. If that had been rolls reversed we would have been at least 3-0 down. Even when we had 81% possession we only won 1-0. Luckiest ***** alive

HibbyAndy
31-10-2014, 05:57 PM
Agreed. Yes, we lost our way a bit after their goal but we should have been about 5-0 up by then. You're literally talking margins of an inch or two. We cracked the post and bar in the first ten mins. If that had been rolls reversed we would have been at least 3-0 down. Even when we had 81% possession we only won 1-0. Luckiest ***** alive

And a couple of outrageous saves by Mcdonald:rolleyes:

NadeAteMyLunch!
31-10-2014, 05:58 PM
And a couple of outrageous saves by Mcdonald:rolleyes:

Indeed 😡
Saves he'd struggle to pull off at the best of times

HibbyAndy
31-10-2014, 05:58 PM
Not quite how I remember things to be honest.

We hammered them for the first 20 minutes or so but after Stevenson scored we basically stopped playing and the second half was pretty much a non-event.

Awrite, But you get the gist, They truly are spawny barstewards!!

Sir David Gray
31-10-2014, 06:15 PM
Awrite, But you get the gist, They truly are spawny barstewards!!

No arguments there.

You just need to watch a re-run of last Sunday's match to know that.

leggeto
31-10-2014, 06:39 PM
One year ago today we were knocked out the league cup by the **** and that proved ultimately the straw that broke the camels back for Pat Fenlon. That was where it all started to spiral incredibly out of control. From then on the club went into absolute free fall under Butcher, one of the worst periods in the club history that saw us embarrassingly relegated.

Amazing really what can happen in a year. We have gone from having a team with no fight, no heart and no interest to a team playing good, attacking football and showing some passion.


:flag:

Wow,Dundee utd would have hammered butchers team on Wednesday, big change indeed

NadeAteMyLunch!
31-10-2014, 06:44 PM
Wow,Dundee utd would have hammered butchers team on Wednesday, big change indeed

Butchers performance against them towards the end of last season was one of the most pathetic I've ever seen. Finished 1-3 but really should have been about 7. The two missed pens alone would have made it 1-5. The entire performance was so just inept and lacklustre. Even our goal was a ridiculous keeper error from a corner, we literally created nothing all night. Grim

Pretty Boy
31-10-2014, 07:01 PM
Butchers performance against them towards the end of last season was one of the most pathetic I've ever seen. Finished 1-3 but really should have been about 7. The two missed pens alone would have made it 1-5. The entire performance was so just inept and lacklustre. Even our goal was a ridiculous keeper error from a corner, we literally created nothing all night. Grim

Remember that game well because it was one of only 2 I've ever left early, the other being an obvious one.

We were so utterly woeful it was like I was in a trance and was half way down the stairs before I realised.

It really is great to be enjoying going to games again, long may it continue.

FranckSuzy
31-10-2014, 07:05 PM
Looking back, he should have been binned after the 2012 cup final. It wasn't his fault the way that game panned out but whoever was in charge for that game would have been a dead man walking no matter what. Too many ghosts and never going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

One man was indeed largely responsible for a lot of good things we did the following season. Leigh Griffiths.

I know, PhD hindsight!

:agree: But even LG acknowledges that PF played a massive part in his form.

Hibrandenburg
31-10-2014, 08:17 PM
One year ago today we were knocked out the league cup by the **** and that proved ultimately the straw that broke the camels back for Pat Fenlon. That was where it all started to spiral incredibly out of control. From then on the club went into absolute free fall under Butcher, one of the worst periods in the club history that saw us embarrassingly relegated.

Amazing really what can happen in a year. We have gone from having a team with no fight, no heart and no interest to a team playing good, attacking football and showing some passion.


:flag:

Like comparing apples and pears. Don't forget we've dropped a league! I think Fenlon's team would walk this league, it would be a snore fest but he'd do ok in the Scottish Championship.

MWHIBBIES
31-10-2014, 08:22 PM
Looking back, he should have been binned after the 2012 cup final. It wasn't his fault the way that game panned out but whoever was in charge for that game would have been a dead man walking no matter what. Too many ghosts and never going to be given the benefit of the doubt.

One man was indeed largely responsible for a lot of good things we did the following season. Leigh Griffiths.

I know, PhD hindsight!Rubbish. Griffiths himself credits Fenlon with turning his Hibs career into a success. Pat done a really solid job the next season under the circumstances and I don't think he should have been binned for something that really wasn't his fault. We were never going to win that cup final, we shouldn't have been near it with the mess Calderwood left.

Ben Williams, Claros, Doyle and Taiwo also played a big part in the good things we done the next season, all Fenlon signings.

We wouldn't be in the first division right now if Pat had seen out his contract.

matty_f
31-10-2014, 09:05 PM
I thought Fenlon came back from the first cup final well, and gave us a lot of pride back the following season.

IMHO, it was the thumping from Malmo that really hurt Fenlon and his side. After that, you could see either Fenlon or the team (probably both) were worried about a hammering whenever they stepped on the pitch after that. Fenlon's side didn't commit to attack after the Malmo game, we were overly cautious, too slow and careful and ultimately too predictable.

Teams didn't need to hammer us, they'd wait for us to make a mistake, score, and then let us have the ball. The team worked hard for Fenlon, you could see he hadn't lost the players, but the players had lost the belief. Fenlon looked like he wanted to protect the side, he set us up cautiously after that hammering - presumably with the thought process that if we can be hard to beat eventually that confidence would come back, but it never did.

Butcher took it out on the players and slaughtered them publicly and in private, and doing that to an already fragile squad was suicide.

We never recovered from Malmo, that result had a hugely detrimental impact on the team. The 1-5 galvanized us as a football club and a support - we did emerge stronger and with more purpose from that game, and managed to right a few wrongs the following season. Malmo, though, set us back massively and was an embarrassing result too far for the football club and ultimately for Fenlon.

It was a shame that it was a derby in which we'd produced the best 20-25 minutes of football I can remember watching for a long time in derby, that saw Fenlon go. He deserved better, IMHO.

I think the time was right, however, for Fenlon to go. The damage from the Malmo game proved to be irreparable and Fenlon's best hope was to finish in a safe position and hope he hadn't lost too much of the support through disaffection from the style of football. When that's the best case scenario for a manager, it's time to go.

Andy74
31-10-2014, 09:19 PM
Take away the first season he took over and look at the average league position after each of his matches. I think a few would be surprised as most think we were largely a lower table team with him.

When he took over we'd just lost to Dunfermline at home and teams had games in hand so despite it looking now that our league position was not dangerous the reality was we could have gone down.

I think if you even added the likes of Kemnedy, Gray and McGeough to the team Fenlon had we'd have been a top team.

matty_f
31-10-2014, 09:24 PM
Take away the first season he took over and look at the average league position after each of his matches. I think a few would be surprised as most think we were largely a lower table team with him.

When he took over we'd just lost to Dunfermline at home and teams had games in hand so despite it looking now that our league position was not dangerous the reality was we could have gone down.

I think if you even added the likes of Kemnedy, Gray and McGeough to the team Fenlon had we'd have been a top team.

I don't think those players would have lifted us, to be honest - it wasn't the quality of the squad that put us where we were, it was how they and Fenlon dealt with the major results that went against us in his final season. Once that confidence goes, it's very hard to get back (as evidenced by a few of our current squad who only now seem to be getting anywhere close to their potential again).

RicheyWhite
31-10-2014, 09:25 PM
Take away the first season he took over and look at the average league position after each of his matches. I think a few would be surprised as most think we were largely a lower table team with him.

When he took over we'd just lost to Dunfermline at home and teams had games in hand so despite it looking now that our league position was not dangerous the reality was we could have gone down.

I think if you even added the likes of Kemnedy, Gray and McGeough to the team Fenlon had we'd have been a top team.

But if Alan Stubbs added Gary Deegan to his midfield? We were piss easy to play against because he loaded the team with complete mediocrity.

Cameron1875
31-10-2014, 10:38 PM
He should have been emptied after Malmo to give the new manager a month of transfer window time left.

Another Rod classic just like with Calderwood.

marinello59
31-10-2014, 10:39 PM
He should have been emptied after Malmo to give the new manager a month of transfer window time left.

Another Rod classic just like with Calderwood.

He should have been emptied after his first cup final.

Cameron1875
31-10-2014, 10:42 PM
He should have been emptied after his first cup final.

Possibly aye. His decision to play a 4-4-2 diamond against Hearts when their best threat that day were wide men!! Suso and Driver ripped us a new one.
Its not as if a narrow midfield even got close to Black and Skacel.

Horrific tactician he was.

Still he did have a bit of balls about him to galvanise us in 12/13 season until he **** the bed against Motherwell when we lost 2-3 at Home around xmas then it was all downhill from there in the SPL.

Weird how intense that Season felt!

Northernhibee
31-10-2014, 10:44 PM
I'm quite happy to openly admit that I liked Pat. Unlucky that the Malmo game came far too early for us and we were drawn against a team halfway through their season, not alone with injuries. Very respectful towards our club, got us and signed some decent players.

If we'd let him see out his contract and he'd decided to stay we'd be playing top flight football this season.

Butcher is simply an awful manager and human being.

Swedish hibee
31-10-2014, 10:55 PM
Butcher is simply an awful manager and human being.

:top marks

Onceinawhile
31-10-2014, 11:02 PM
:top marks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OuLiqJp0Ho

Sparky's goal in this game, was quite frankly wonderful.

Eoin Doyle's goal was also wonderful. Paul "nutmeg everyone I get set up against" Cairney, was worth the admission fee alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_G5hw5WEkc

PISH

HOOF

Onceinawhile
31-10-2014, 11:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox877MEAPb0

Minging

Onceinawhile
31-10-2014, 11:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6KaA8dTE2k

horrible football from Fenlon.

Disgusting.

GTF Fenlon

Eyrie
31-10-2014, 11:44 PM
I liked Fenlon and wish him well, but ultimately he wasn't good enough to be our manager.

He was still better than his predecessor and successor though.

Kato
31-10-2014, 11:50 PM
The game that really ****ed us was the game away to Dundee Utd immediately after the derby. 0-2 up after 82 minutes then drew 2-2, including a 90th minute equaliser. There is no doubt in my mind that we would still be in the top league if we had held on that day. It would have been 4 wins on the bounce for the first time in years. Would have been such a boost for the players. Never forget how gutted they looked traipsing off the pitch, looked like they had just lost a cup final. That game absolutely killed us.

Penalty given when the foul was outside the box. Some very poor decisions against us when Fenlon was here. Surprised the club never complained, not.

Diclonius
31-10-2014, 11:50 PM
Possibly aye. His decision to play a 4-4-2 diamond against Hearts when their best threat that day were wide men!! Suso and Driver ripped us a new one.
Its not as if a narrow midfield even got close to Black and Skacel.

Horrific tactician he was.

Still he did have a bit of balls about him to galvanise us in 12/13 season until he **** the bed against Motherwell when we lost 2-3 at Home around xmas then it was all downhill from there in the SPL.

Weird how intense that Season felt!

We beat Celtic two weeks after that game.

silverhibee
01-11-2014, 12:49 AM
I liked Pat but I think it was time to leave.

Would wish him all the best for the future.

Lets not forget he got us to two cup finals.


Forgot all about them. :rolleyes:

Cameron1875
01-11-2014, 12:59 AM
We beat Celtic two weeks after that game.

How many more league games did we win then?

MWHIBBIES
01-11-2014, 04:03 AM
How many more league games did we win then?Would have had 5 more points if officials done their jobs correctly (joke of a pen away at DU and Griffiths FK vs Hearts) which would have had us top 6. Top 6 and a cup final after 11th the season before would have been a big success, sadly it wasn't to be.

CallumLaidlaw
01-11-2014, 08:53 AM
Courtesy of my timehop - 1 year ago today -
http://youtu.be/oOJJjctHH6I

poolman
01-11-2014, 09:08 AM
Christ that feels longer than a year ago. We've all aged by ten times that.



He was 24 a year ago


http://i58.tinypic.com/2q2emw3.png

Tyler Durden
01-11-2014, 09:13 AM
Take away the first season he took over and look at the average league position after each of his matches. I think a few would be surprised as most think we were largely a lower table team with him.

When he took over we'd just lost to Dunfermline at home and teams had games in hand so despite it looking now that our league position was not dangerous the reality was we could have gone down.

I think if you even added the likes of Kemnedy, Gray and McGeough to the team Fenlon had we'd have been a top team.

We were largely a lower table team with Fenlon.

Shame the positive feeling on the board is getting dragged down looking back on this clowns tenure.

I'd liken the difference in Hibs from Fenlon to Stubbs as similar to Scotland from Levein to Strachan. The tools/resources were there from the outset but the inherent negative attitudes and lack of quality/nous in the previous incumbents lead to poor results. Fenlon has no football philosophy or know how to create an entertaining team

Andy74
01-11-2014, 09:24 AM
We were largely a lower table team with Fenlon.

Shame the positive feeling on the board is getting dragged down looking back on this clowns tenure.

I'd liken the difference in Hibs from Fenlon to Stubbs as similar to Scotland from Levein to Strachan. The tools/resources were there from the outset but the inherent negative attitudes and lack of quality/nous in the previous incumbents lead to poor results. Fenlon has no football philosophy or know how to create an entertaining team

We weren't actually.

HH81
01-11-2014, 09:56 AM
Forgot all about them. :rolleyes:

You have to get to them to win them. How many years will it take for another manager to do it two years on the trot. Just think Pat Fenlon was 90 mins from been a legend. Twice.

DH1875
01-11-2014, 10:02 AM
While he has to take some of the blame, thinks started to go tits up well before he arrived.

Hibrandenburg
01-11-2014, 10:06 AM
While he has to take some of the blame, thinks started to go tits up well before he arrived.
:agree: He didn't stand a Cat in hells chance, Butcher either.

GreenOnions
01-11-2014, 10:08 AM
I liked Pat Fenlon and he did some good things for Hibs. However, I do believe he was out of his depth in the premier league. In particular I think his lack of knowledge of the the scottish leagues and scottish players hampered him as it did Colin Calderwood before him. This was reflected in the extent to which both managers made poor quality signings. Eventually - our squad became bloated with mediocrity.

These days - when players are moving on very frequently - a successful club must have a management team with contacts and one which is capable of consistently identifying suitable quality players.

Look at the impact Derek McInnes made at Aberdeen with a small number of astute signings - or indeed Robbie Neilson at Hearts this summer. Even Tony Mowbray is a good example - it's often said he was a little lucky with all the young players he inherited - but his signings were extremely good too with Beuzelin, Murphy, Sproule, Sheils, Benjelloun, Zemmama, Killen, Jones, Stewart.

No manager gets it 100% right or wrong but Pat and Colin Calderwood both got it much more wrong than right in that regard more than any other and we've all paid the price.

silverhibee
01-11-2014, 11:47 AM
He should have been emptied after his first cup final.

He should never have been our manager in the first place, only Petrie can explain that one, he wasn't our first choice.

Real Emerald
01-11-2014, 11:56 AM
He should never have been our manager in the first place, only Petrie can explain that one, he wasn't our first choice.

Agree. Butcher pushed us over the cliff but it was Pat Fenlon who led us there. He should never have survived that cup final defeat in 2012, an utter disgrace and a result we as supporters, our children and childrens children will get rammed down our throats for years to come. That I'm afraid, coupled with the worst Scottish European result in the history of Scottish clubs is something I will never forgive him for. That is his legacy and don't ever forget it, he has caused great damage to Hibs.

Anyway, I also agree that at this time when things are really starting to look up, why drag out all this Fenlon stuff again. He's gone but unfortunately can never be forgotten.

blackpoolhibs
01-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Like it or not, we as Hibs supporters do want a team that entertains us. Due diligence has hardly been done when appointing managers over the last few years.

A Hibs team should always play the game properly, and not subject the support to eye bleeding stuff the likes of Calderwood, WIlliamson, Fenlon, Butcher and the likes have given us.

99% of the support will accept a decent team who are at least in the SPL and are trying to play the right way and challenging for the places that bring European football.

What we wont accept is dull as dishwater pish, that has us scraping around the bottom 6 fighting relegation or chasing the odd top 6 place but ultimately failing.

I feel sorry for Stubbs, because i'm as guilty as anyone who can't be arsed going to watch his team. He's feeling the wrath of the supporters like me who had enough of watching dross and listening to the bull**** the club and management had fed us over the last few years.

Once people have stopped going i know from personal experience how easy it becomes to not bother going. Which gets me back to the original point of this thread, and Fenlon.

He should have gone for me after the Malmo debacle, but once again Petrie failed to appoint the right man and again failed to sack him when he should have done.

Petrie has a history of appointing managers who dont have the right philosophy, we'd probably accept it if we were actually winning, but a combination of poor results and eye bleeding football will never be acceptable for most Hibs fans.

Real Emerald
01-11-2014, 12:26 PM
Like it or not, we as Hibs supporters do want a team that entertains us. Due diligence has hardly been done when appointing managers over the last few years.

A Hibs team should always play the game properly, and not subject the support to eye bleeding stuff the likes of Calderwood, WIlliamson, Fenlon, Butcher and the likes have given us.

99% of the support will accept a decent team who are at least in the SPL and are trying to play the right way and challenging for the places that bring European football.

What we wont accept is dull as dishwater pish, that has us scraping around the bottom 6 fighting relegation or chasing the odd top 6 place but ultimately failing.

I feel sorry for Stubbs, because i'm as guilty as anyone who can't be arsed going to watch his team. He's feeling the wrath of the supporters like me who had enough of watching dross and listening to the bull**** the club and management had fed us over the last few years.

Once people have stopped going i know from personal experience how easy it becomes to not bother going. Which gets me back to the original point of this thread, and Fenlon.

He should have gone for me after the Malmo debacle, but once again Petrie failed to appoint the right man and again failed to sack him when he should have done.

Petrie has a history of appointing managers who dont have the right philosophy, we'd probably accept it if we were actually winning, but a combination of poor results and eye bleeding football will never be acceptable for most Hibs fans.

You know something is going in the right direction when the team get a standing ovation after a defeat like they did on Wednesday night. That along with the Hearts game was a joy to watch which really endorses what you're saying. Performances like this will bring results eventually and the fans like me can't wait until the next game to see Hibs playing like this. You'll be back and you'll enjoy it again when you do. :aok:

Bishop Hibee
01-11-2014, 12:30 PM
Fenlon is a nice guy but tactically inept. He would have kept us in the Premiership though as Butcher managed to surpass Duff Jimmy and Calderclown as the worst manager in my lifetime. Fenlon should have gone earlier but the blame lies with Petrie for giving him the job in the first place. It was too big for him.

CallumLaidlaw
01-11-2014, 12:40 PM
Agree. Butcher pushed us over the cliff but it was Pat Fenlon who led us there. He should never have survived that cup final defeat in 2012, an utter disgrace and a result we as supporters, our children and childrens children will get rammed down our throats for years to come. That I'm afraid, coupled with the worst Scottish European result in the history of Scottish clubs is something I will never forgive him for. That is his legacy and don't ever forget it, he has caused great damage to Hibs.

Anyway, I also agree that at this time when things are really starting to look up, why drag out all this Fenlon stuff again. He's gone but unfortunately can never be forgotten.

Personally think thats far too harsh. He kept us up, got us to 2 cup finals and into europe. Made some good signings and tried to change the culture at the club. He had us mid table when he stepped down, and would never have gone down if he'd stayed in charge.
He had to clean up Calderwoods mess - a man that was rushed into the Hibs job due to Steve Clarke backing out at the last minute.

His time was definitely up, but I did feel for him. He left gracefully and still has a soft spot for us. Things have been rotten at our club LONG before Pat took charge. The idiot that came after him made him look like Sir Alex!

Real Emerald
01-11-2014, 12:53 PM
Personally think thats far too harsh. He kept us up, got us to 2 cup finals and into europe. Made some good signings and tried to change the culture at the club. He had us mid table when he stepped down, and would never have gone down if he'd stayed in charge.
He had to clean up Calderwoods mess - a man that was rushed into the Hibs job due to Steve Clarke backing out at the last minute.

His time was definitely up, but I did feel for him. He left gracefully and still has a soft spot for us. Things have been rotten at our club LONG before Pat took charge. The idiot that came after him made him look like Sir Alex!

No one will remember him trying to change the culture or making one or two signings as it didn't work. The five one will never be forgotten and we are saddled with it forever. Those are the facts and if you think I'm being harsh then that's your opinion but I think his tenure has left a legacy that will last a long long time unfortunately.

Stevie Reid
01-11-2014, 02:28 PM
Made dozens of posts on my assessment of Pat's tenure, not going to write at length again.

I just wish he's stayed until the end of last season, and then gone then.

I'd shake him by the hand if I saw him in the street.

basehibby
01-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Tbh it was time for Fenlon to go, no one could have imagined the caranage that Butcher and his ****witted side kick wpuld cause.

Fenlons a funny one because whilst he oversaw cup finals and European humpings he ultimately got us there in the 1st place. The football was mind numbing though, in it's own way it was as bad as Butcher yet it saw us scrape out ugly wins which is what we really needed at the end of last season.

I wish Pat well because he gave it his all and wanted what waa best for the club which is far more than can be said for his predecessor and successor.

Time to look forward though because we have the makings of a very good manager in the here and now.

TBH it was NOT - Fenlon's contract was up at the end of the season and should have been allowed to run down and we would have finished mid table and parted ways.

Unfortunately, there is a vocal minority of our fanbase who think they know it all and for whom any player/manager at Hibs who is not all things to all men at all times will be branded "sheight" and hounded relentlessly from the stands and from messageboards like this.

These fans have not gone away and have attempted to make scapegoats of players such as Robertson and Malonga already this season. They need to wake up and listen to their fellow supporters / players / managers who consistently tell them that they are part of the problem. Of course I'm not trying to say that any employee at Hibs is beyond criticism, but I would urge some supporters to desist from their default position of looking for fault and bawling abuse/criticism at their latest pet hate figure. We are collectively called SUPPORTERS for a reason - we have the potential to be a powerful positive influence on the team we pay to watch. Standing bawling criticism on the other hand can often be a self-fulfilling prophecy - player hears abuse raining down/player tries too hard or maybe goes into his shell/player makes mistakes and/or fails to play to potential.

Stranraer
01-11-2014, 03:47 PM
I liked Fenlon and was originally unhappy with Stubbs appointment at the beginning but I think we have "turned the corner" as another poster put it - two excellent performances on the trot - I was wrong to write off Stubbs so early.

Eyrie
01-11-2014, 08:02 PM
A question for those who say that Fenlon should have been fired after the Malmo defeat. Given the single-mindedness with which Petrie pursued Butcher as Fenlon's replacement, do you think we would have stayed up if Butcher had been in charge for the entire season?

I don't.

heretoday
01-11-2014, 08:23 PM
Good post. It is quite amazing the roller coaster that we have been on.

Fenlon was not the worst. I think he was given a bit of a crock to start with.

It's all about money and signings and that.

And luck.

Tyler Durden
01-11-2014, 09:10 PM
We weren't actually.

We were largely a lower end of the table team under Fenlon. It's quite close but his team spent more time bottom 6. That includes his first 6 months, I'm not sure why it should be excluded. Nor does he deserve any credit for "keeping us up". He didn't change the culture either - another failure.

It's a bit of a silly debate anyway, teams/managers are quite rightly judged at the seasons end. Fenlons team were bottom 6 both times and then he jumped ship having wasted a generous budget the next summer.

Utter failure

MWHIBBIES
01-11-2014, 09:21 PM
We were largely a lower end of the table team under Fenlon. It's quite close but his team spent more time bottom 6. That includes his first 6 months, I'm not sure why it should be excluded. Nor does he deserve any credit for "keeping us up". He didn't change the culture either - another failure.

It's a bit of a silly debate anyway, teams/managers are quite rightly judged at the seasons end. Fenlons team were bottom 6 both times and then he jumped ship having wasted a generous budget the next summer.

Utter failureNope. Butcher and Calderwood were utter failures, Fenlon wasn't even close to as bad as them, simple as.

Hibernia&Alba
01-11-2014, 09:31 PM
Nope. Butcher and Calderwood were utter failures, Fenlon wasn't even close to as bad as them, simple as.

I agree with that. Over the entire piece Fenlon wasn't as bad as those two clowns, but the 1-5 and 0-7 killed him. He'll always be remembered for those.

B.H.F.C
01-11-2014, 09:45 PM
I agree with that. Over the entire piece Fenlon wasn't as bad as those two clowns, but the 1-5 and 0-7 killed him. He'll always be remembered for those.

Agree. Calderwood really started the decline off for me. Butcher completed it. Fenlon cared but those two results are in the history books. Won't ever be forgotten.

If he was still here we would probably still be in the premiership but we'd still be playing to the same terrible crowds.

MWHIBBIES
02-11-2014, 01:37 AM
I agree with that. Over the entire piece Fenlon wasn't as bad as those two clowns, but the 1-5 and 0-7 killed him. He'll always be remembered for those.Not by me.

weonlywon6-2
02-11-2014, 06:25 AM
I agree with that. Over the entire piece Fenlon wasn't as bad as those two clowns, but the 1-5 and 0-7 killed him. He'll always be remembered for those.

To be honest i never really think about them,in footie you just have to move on and not dwell on the past.Fenlon appeared to be a nice guy and did his best at hibs,He gave us a scottish cup win over them at a crucial time,kilmarnock away and the falkirk semi,id rather remember him for those games

Good luck to him

blackpoolhibs
02-11-2014, 09:48 AM
A question for those who say that Fenlon should have been fired after the Malmo defeat. Given the single-mindedness with which Petrie pursued Butcher as Fenlon's replacement, do you think we would have stayed up if Butcher had been in charge for the entire season?

I don't.

Its obvious with what we know now that everyone would have preferred if Fenlon had stayed and Butcher had never come anywhere near the club.

Thats not to say Fenlon should not have gone, and for me after the Malmo game was the right time.

Petrie appointed Butcher, his job was to get the best man in to take over from Fenlon. That was another mistake on the long list of mistakes that Petrie did.

When you are replacing a manager, its clear that the mandate should be that the new manager should be a man who wants to play football the right way and be better than the man he's replacing.

Well done Petrie, we are where we are now because of the amount of decisions that man has got wrong over the last 7 years.

And still he hangs around like a bad smell.

RicheyWhite
02-11-2014, 10:02 AM
Petrie appointed Butcher, his job was to get the best man in to take over from Fenlon. That was another mistake on the long list of mistakes that Petrie did.

When you are replacing a manager, its clear that the mandate should be that the new manager should be a man who wants to play football the right way and be better than the man he's replacing.

That's where it gets really stupid though. This game -http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24783002 - was about the best presentation he could have done if it were a job interview. If he realised he couldn't do that with Fenlon's team then that could have been the intention with whoever he replaced them with. Which could have been really good to be honest, and one of the arguments for keeping him on in the summer for the rebuild.

Unfortunately, that he didn't have a scoob what to do in the meantime meant no one has ever deserved the sack more.

yekimevol
02-11-2014, 10:06 AM
For me, Fenlon had built a solid but unspectacular team who were never going to finish top 3 but never going to go downand, ultimately dull as dishwater! I was concerned when butcher came in and said the team needed rebuilt as I thought the basis was there, but then he started well. Then, as has been mentioned he sapped all morale and took us down.

I'd have preferred Fenlon to see out the season, take another mediocre 6/7th finish, and give his successor a full summer to add the attacking skill that was missing from that team. Unfortunately that was unlikely to happen.

We also shouldn't tar all the loans with the same brush though, given both Claros and griffiths were on such deals!

My thoughts exactly !

blackpoolhibs
02-11-2014, 10:09 AM
That's where it gets really stupid though. This game -http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24783002 - was about the best presentation he could have done if it were a job interview. If he realised he couldn't do that with Fenlon's team then that could have been the intention with whoever he replaced them with. Which could have been really good to be honest, and one of the arguments for keeping him on in the summer for the rebuild.

Unfortunately, that he didn't have a scoob what to do in the meantime meant no one has ever deserved the sack more.

A fit and proper manager should have been able to manage that team Fenlon left him to safety. His stubborn antics and refusal to waver from the type of football that was clearly not working was criminal.

And to be fair, the game you put up where his Inverness side beat us was a good performance, but remember who the opposition was.

RicheyWhite
02-11-2014, 10:35 AM
A fit and proper manager should have been able to manage that team Fenlon left him to safety. His stubborn antics and refusal to waver from the type of football that was clearly not working was criminal.

And to be fair, the game you put up where his Inverness side beat us was a good performance, but remember who the opposition was.

Don't disagree with anything of that. Would just love to know what the original plan was, what the long term plan was, and what the hell he was thinking in between.

Jdawg
02-11-2014, 10:41 AM
To be honest i never really think about them,in footie you just have to move on and not dwell on the past.Fenlon appeared to be a nice guy and did his best at hibs,He gave us a scottish cup win over them at a crucial time,kilmarnock away and the falkirk semi,id rather remember him for those games

Good luck to him

Crucial time? That would have been not getting pumped in a cup final against them, by bring tactically inept. Then there is the Malmö debacle. Managers are judged on results, two of the worst in out history.

Managed to build a squad of defensive midfielders and no right backs.

Full backs lije David Gray should be the standard, not the exception.

Malthibby
02-11-2014, 10:47 AM
Not by me.

You are in a minority of one if you don't think that Pat & 1-5 & 0-7 are linked forever in Hibs' fans minds.
Whatever else he did is utterly irrelevant.
Seemed a nice bloke but was out of his depth.
We need to move on, Stubbs looks as if he can motivate & coach so hopefully GG time is just around the corner.

PeeJay
03-11-2014, 07:34 AM
A club with any self esteem and ambition would have ditched Mr. Fenlon after 0-7 (and at the very latest 1-5) IMO. However, as long as Petrie's is in charge it doesn't matter how low we sink as a club, we just stumble on ... don't think we should keep returning to Fenlon and concentrating on his tenure, it's just one in a long line of calamities at the club ... time we started putting pressure on the sole constant during all this period ...

Alex Trager
03-11-2014, 08:19 AM
You are in a minority of one if you don't think that Pat & 1-5 & 0-7 are linked forever in Hibs' fans minds.
Whatever else he did is utterly irrelevant.
Seemed a nice bloke but was out of his depth.
We need to move on, Stubbs looks as if he can motivate & coach so hopefully GG time is just around the corner.

I don't automatically make that linkage.

I'd argue that I never ever think of malmo either.

Eventually Id realise it was Fenlon that took us to this results but I don't usually link the two together

Andy74
03-11-2014, 09:25 AM
A club with any self esteem and ambition would have ditched Mr. Fenlon after 0-7 (and at the very latest 1-5) IMO. However, as long as Petrie's is in charge it doesn't matter how low we sink as a club, we just stumble on ... don't think we should keep returning to Fenlon and concentrating on his tenure, it's just one in a long line of calamities at the club ... time we started putting pressure on the sole constant during all this period ...

Not really. I'd think most clubs would realise the differing positions of the teams in terms of getting squads and fitness together and the fact we had to play most of the game with I think 3 19 year olds in defence and 4 in the team.

The manager had also up to that stage steeered the club to safety in his first year, followed it up with spending most of the next season in the top half, dipping a bit towards the split where we were cheated of getting into the top half and then went unbeaten in the bottom six fixtures, winning I think 4 of them.

He'd also reached the last two Scottissh cup finals and qualified for Europe. Add to that we'd gone the year unbeaten against Hearts.

The well used line of 'he should have been sacked after Malmo' doesn't really make much sense.

PeeJay
03-11-2014, 09:44 AM
Not really. I'd think most clubs would realise the differing positions of the teams in terms of getting squads and fitness together and the fact we had to play most of the game with I think 3 19 year olds in defence and 4 in the team.

The manager had also up to that stage steeered the club to safety in his first year, followed it up with spending most of the next season in the top half, dipping a bit towards the split where we were cheated of getting into the top half and then went unbeaten in the bottom six fixtures, winning I think 4 of them.

He'd also reached the last two Scottissh cup finals and qualified for Europe. Add to that we'd gone the year unbeaten against Hearts.

The well used line of 'he should have been sacked after Malmo' doesn't really make much sense.

We're never going to agree on this - I don't see it as you do, and I appreciate that you see it differently - doesn't really matter, Fenlon's gone, he's no longer the "problem" - the problem - as I see it - is still here and that needs to be addressed or things will never change. Constantly harking back to Fenlon is not a constructive way to go ...

greenlex
03-11-2014, 09:54 AM
Good post. It is quite amazing the roller coaster that we have been on.

Fenlon was not the worst. I think he was given a bit of a crock to start with.

It's all about money and signings and that.

And luck.Mostly luck. A penalty to Dundee utd that was a yard outside the box. That's not given and we are top six after the split. Sparkys free kick that was two feet over the line against Hearts. A double hand ball against StMirren at ER denies us a penalty that could have kept us up. Im sure there are others. Luck in appointing the right manager in the first place. Very few clubs get appointments right.

bigwheel
03-11-2014, 09:57 AM
Agree. Butcher pushed us over the cliff but it was Pat Fenlon who led us there. He should never have survived that cup final defeat in 2012, an utter disgrace and a result we as supporters, our children and childrens children will get rammed down our throats for years to come. That I'm afraid, coupled with the worst Scottish European result in the history of Scottish clubs is something I will never forgive him for. That is his legacy and don't ever forget it, he has caused great damage to Hibs.

Anyway, I also agree that at this time when things are really starting to look up, why drag out all this Fenlon stuff again. He's gone but unfortunately can never be forgotten.


...we had some major disaster results with him in charge, he wasn't the most attacking of managers and I feel the time was right for him to move off...but stats do not bear out any suggestion we were on a downward spiral with Fenlon...even at the most simple level, Pat's team were picking up twice as many points per game as Butchers did. There is only one manager team that took us down last year...and we are still paying their wages..

Andy74
03-11-2014, 11:52 AM
...we had some major disaster results with him in charge, he wasn't the most attacking of managers and I feel the time was right for him to move off...but stats do not bear out any suggestion we were on a downward spiral with Fenlon...even at the most simple level, Pat's team were picking up twice as many points per game as Butchers did. There is only one manager team that took us down last year...and we are still paying their wages..

Here's a run down, in the full season he had and then the start of the next in terms of where we sat in the league after each game :

12th place - 2 weeks against 3 weeks in 1st place
11th place - 0 weeks against 8 weeks in 2nd place
10th place - 1 week against 0 weeks in 3rd place
9th place - 6 weeks against 11 weeks in 4th place
8th place - 3 weeks against 7 weeks in 5th place
7th place - 2 weeks against 6 weeks in 6th place

14 spent in bottom 6 against 35 in top 6.

The year we did end up in bottom 6 we finished with more points thatn the 5th and 6th placed teams (granted we were playing bottom six teams).

Doesn't really suggest a team that was in danger of plummeting.

Thecat23
03-11-2014, 12:07 PM
Pat's football was horrible and attendances showed that. Suffering humiliating defeats to Hearts and Malmo put many off coming back. He was right to leave and IMO should have gone long before he did.

He was a nice guy who just couldn't handle how big Hibs were. Sadly though TB was worse and took us down! If we had Stubbs in charge and watching his style of play it would be night and day. For me it's all ancient history and it's about looking forward not back. He was a poor manager along with many but TB was the worst.

I'm delighted we have Stubbs as you can see what he's trying to do at the club and it's positive. The Dundee Utd game was there best game I've been at in many years. Played good football against a top prem side. Neither Fenlon or Butcher would have had us play as attacking as Stubbs did that night. So I for one am glad he's long gone and we have a hungry young manager who's building something good!


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