Voted Labour in the past? Support Independence?

[RIP]

I'm attending a national meeting tomorrow of the group Labour for Independence to review the campaign and plan next steps.

I would be interested to hear your views on the way ahead for traditional Labour voters who were among the 40% who voted Yes.

Do you want to see a separate movement, new political party, broad left alliance, Scotland Yes alliance, electoral pact?

Thoughts welcome

[HappyAsHellas]

I always voted Labour in the past and found it disturbingly easy to vote against them now. They used to stand up for principles, but these have been abandoned for little soundbites and political posturing to try and hang on to their jobs. Milliband - a leader of the people, I don't think so - and as for Lamont, well it's depressingly sad. The leaders of a once great institution would sell their grannies as galley slaves for a couple of quid.
Right now I wouldn't trust them as far as I could spit a rat, and that's sad.

[ronaldo7]

A Labour voter all my years, I will not vote for them again in their New Labour guise. The SLAB party are just a puppet of the London party which is such a waste.

13593

[Jack]

Labour are the living dead, the new Libdems.

Utterly clueless and following the referendum debate, the ease with which they delivered their lies - not to mention how well they slithered into bed with the Torys, they are unworthy of anyone's efforts to rescue them.

Long may they rot in Hell.

[allmodcons]

I posted this link on another thread earlier this week because I thought it was a decent article by a former Labour supporter

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/27/labour-in-scotland-dying-does-anyone-care


I've always been a left leaning SNP supporter but, for the life of me, can't get my head round the hatred some Labour members direct towards the SNP.

Putting the Independence issue to one side, I would say I have a lot in common (politically) with core Labour voters yet I have come to beleive that the Labour Party as an organisation hate the SNP even more than the Conservatives :confused:

[NAE NOOKIE]

If it was not for my desire for independence I would be a natural Labour voter. But in Scotland the current party seem to be in disarray, they seem all consumed by the SNP and accusing folk like me of being tartan Tories is never going to bring me into the fold. I wonder if that same accusation will be levelled at the thousands who have now moved to the SNP in traditional Labour areas.

At a national level Tony Blair recognised that to get elected getting big business on board was required, but in doing so we moved closer to a USA situation where any efforts at socialism come with a small S. So much so that UK Labour started to look like diet Tories.

The SNP do a lot I like, but I don't agree with everything and post independence I would have been drawn to a new Scottish Labour party.

But so long as the current lot are anti independence and worse, are prepared to get into bed with the Tories to prevent it I will never be one of them.

[JimBHibees]

I posted this link on another thread earlier this week because I thought it was a decent article by a former Labour supporter

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/27/labour-in-scotland-dying-does-anyone-care


I've always been a left leaning SNP supporter but, for the life of me, can't get my head round the hatred some Labour members direct towards the SNP.

Putting the Independence issue to one side, I would say I have a lot in common (politically) with core Labour voters yet I have come to beleive that the Labour Party as an organisation hate the SNP even more than the Conservatives :confused:

Fantastic article and so true. The reason they hate the SNP more is that they are much better at doing their jobs than Labour are and that they are the biggest threat to the Westminster trough.

This bit was brilliant.

"Many others were sickened at watching their party acting as swordbearers for the baleful forces of the Conservative party, big oil, big business and the landed and undeserving rich during the referendum campaign. The sight of Labour people singing and dancing with Conservatives at having preserved the established order of things will not be erased soon.

Ed Miliband will require all of his 41 Scottish Labour MPs to be returned if he is to have any hope of winning an overall majority at Westminster next year. Yet how many of them would survive a backlash from among the 1.6 million who voted yes and who have effectively renounced the Labour faith?

In recent days, I’ve been rebuked by some chums in the Labour party for deploying the term “careerist” to describe them. Leaving aside Murphy and his 100-day job application and Baron Reid and Baron Foulkes of, ahem, Cumnock and their exalted Labour lordships McConnell and Robertson, I’m willing to concede that “careerist” doesn’t apply to all Labour stalwarts".

[Jack]

I posted this link on another thread earlier this week because I thought it was a decent article by a former Labour supporter

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/27/labour-in-scotland-dying-does-anyone-care


I've always been a left leaning SNP supporter but, for the life of me, can't get my head round the hatred some Labour members direct towards the SNP.

Putting the Independence issue to one side, I would say I have a lot in common (politically) with core Labour voters yet I have come to beleive that the Labour Party as an organisation hate the SNP even more than the Conservatives :confused:

Labour hate the SNP because the way Holyrood was set up Labour would always be the major party and hold power, albeit sometimes in a coalition. OOPS!

[RIP]

So would you want to see the creation of a Scottish Independent Labour Party dedicated to the principles of Keir Hardie - Home rule, democracy, equal pay and pacifism?

[HappyAsHellas]

That would be a start, but where the hell are Labour going to find someone with honesty, determination and the will to engage with their core supporters who are abandoning the ship at a fair old rate of knots?

[The Harp Awakes]

I'm attending a national meeting tomorrow of the group Labour for Independence to review the campaign and plan next steps.

I would be interested to hear your views on the way ahead for traditional Labour voters who were among the 40% who voted Yes.

Do you want to see a separate movement, new political party, broad left alliance, Scotland Yes alliance, electoral pact?

Thoughts welcome

There was a time when I was a very passionate Labour voter and can remember being in tears when Thatcher was deposed after 18 years of misery. I began to turn during the Blair years and initially voted tactically; Labour at a General Election and SNP at a Holyrood election. I would now vote snp every time, as I detest the Labour Party with a passion, particulatly due to the way their politicians conducted themselves during the independence referendum. Siding with big business and the Tories in an attempt at beating the Scottish electorate into submission was distasteful.

My close family would all have a similar story to tell without exception.

I feel that the Scottish Labour Party and the Westminster Labour Party are now incompatible as Westminster Governments steadily move to the right and Scottish Governments remain broadly left.

Independence was an opportunity for the Labour Party in Scotland to re-invent itself and get its grass roots support back. That opportunity is now lost. I think the only way ahead now is for Labour in Scotland to split from the UK Labour Party and join a Yes alliance. For that to happen though, they would effectively be forming a new party similar to when the SDP were formed in the 80s.

[Peevemor]

There was a time when I was a very passionate Labour voter and can remember being in tears when Thatcher was deposed after 18 years of misery. I began to turn during the Blair years and initially voted tactically; Labour at a General Election and SNP at a Holyrood election. I would now vote snp every time, as I detest the Labour Party with a passion, particulatly due to the way their politicians conducted themselves during the independence referendum. Siding with big business and the Tories in an attempt at beating the Scottish electorate into submission was distasteful.

My close family would all have a similar story to tell without exception.

I feel that the Scottish Labour Party and the Westminster Labour Party are now incompatible as Westminster Governments steadily move to the right and Scottish Governments remain broadly left.

Independence was an opportunity for the Labour Party in Scotland to re-invent itself and get its grass roots support back. That opportunity is now lost. I think the only way ahead now is for Labour in Scotland to split from the UK Labour Party and join a Yes alliance. For that to happen though, they would effectively be forming a new party similar to when the SDP were formed in the 80s.


If it was not for my desire for independence I would be a natural Labour voter. But in Scotland the current party seem to be in disarray, they seem all consumed by the SNP and accusing folk like me of being tartan Tories is never going to bring me into the fold. I wonder if that same accusation will be levelled at the thousands who have now moved to the SNP in traditional Labour areas.

At a national level Tony Blair recognised that to get elected getting big business on board was required, but in doing so we moved closer to a USA situation where any efforts at socialism come with a small S. So much so that UK Labour started to look like diet Tories.

The SNP do a lot I like, but I don't agree with everything and post independence I would have been drawn to a new Scottish Labour party.

But so long as the current lot are anti independence and worse, are prepared to get into bed with the Tories to prevent it I will never be one of them.

Why did you write "small S" with a capital S? It's complicated this politics stuff!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why did you write "small S" with a capital S? It's complicated this politics stuff!

sORRY

[Hibrandenburg]

I posted this link on another thread earlier this week because I thought it was a decent article by a former Labour supporter

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/27/labour-in-scotland-dying-does-anyone-care


I've always been a left leaning SNP supporter but, for the life of me, can't get my head round the hatred some Labour members direct towards the SNP.

Putting the Independence issue to one side, I would say I have a lot in common (politically) with core Labour voters yet I have come to beleive that the Labour Party as an organisation hate the SNP even more than the Conservatives :confused:

The Labour Party have evolved to attract votes from middle England, they need to to have a chance of getting power. Unfortunately the policies for middle England are not in Scotland's interest.

[lord bunberry]

So would you want to see the creation of a Scottish Independent Labour Party dedicated to the principles of Keir Hardie - Home rule, democracy, equal pay and pacifism?

The UK Labour Party would never allow such a thing, and if it happened without their consent it could split the Labour vote. Personally speaking I think the Labour Party is finished in Scotland and the UK , it no longer represents the people who would normally vote for it, this country no longer has a left of centre option.

[Peevemor]

The UK Labour Party would never allow such a thing, and if it happened without their consent it could split the Labour vote. Personally speaking I think the Labour Party is finished in Scotland and the UK , it no longer represents the people who would normally vote for it, this country no longer has a left of centre option.

I disagree. I think a Scottish run labour equivalent, without extremists, would do very well (especially in an iScotland). Even at Westminster, if a new party was invited to form a coalition govt with their London run equivalent, the clout they'd have could be pretty significant for the people of Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

I disagree. I think a Scottish run labour equivalent, without extremists, would do very well (especially in an iScotland). Even at Westminster, if a new party was invited to form a coalition govt with their London run equivalent, the clout they'd have could be pretty significant for the people of Scotland.

I agree that in the long run it would do well but initially this close to 2 elections, then I think it would split the vote and therefor be a bad thing from a Labour point of view.

[Peevemor]

I agree that in the long run it would do well but initially this close to 2 elections, then I think it would split the vote and therefor be a bad thing from a Labour point of view.

For a decent Scottish labour movement, there's never been a better time. OK, it would split the vote at the next elections, but I think there are a great many traditional Labour voters who are totally fed up with the way their party has gone.

[RIP]

The UK Labour Party would never allow such a thing, and if it happened without their consent it could split the Labour vote. Personally speaking I think the Labour Party is finished in Scotland and the UK , it no longer represents the people who would normally vote for it, this country no longer has a left of centre option.

There's not a damn thing Westminster Labour can do to stop it.

You are right. This move would definitely split the Labour vote. They fear this more than losing votes to the nationalists

[Colr]

The UK Labour Party would never allow such a thing, and if it happened without their consent it could split the Labour vote. Personally speaking I think the Labour Party is finished in Scotland and the UK , it no longer represents the people who would normally vote for it, this country no longer has a left of centre option.

I'm not a yes voter and I don't live in Scotland anymore so maybe I shouldn't comment on this thread but I can't see how the Labour Party in finished if despite its current utter ****ness it's still projected to wi ma majority in the House of Commons.


It seems the deck is well stacked in the party's favour.

(I should say I'm a former Labour member but for various reasons won't be voting for them any time soon).

[Stranraer]

I would vote for Mr. Blobby before I voted Labour - I despise them.

Anyway, my Auntie is a Labour voter and wants to see a separate Labour YES movement of some sort.

But consider a ballot paper looking like this:


Scottish Labour Party
Socialist Labour Party
Scottish Labour for independence ?


:greengrin

[Mikey09]

The Labour Party have pissed on there chips in Scotland.... End of.... :bye:

[Colr]

The Labour left need to keep working class people in their place and grateful for titbits that they will be thrown should they form the new establishment. They hated Blair principally for courting aspirations in the their pet plebs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Labour are as relevant to modern Britain as Brylcreem, Capstan Full Strength, and holidays at Butlins.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The Labour left need to keep working class people in their place and grateful for titbits that they will be thrown should they form the new establishment. They hated Blair principally for courting aspirations in the their pet plebs.

I'm almost getting Thatcherite in my old age. What is this "working class" you refer to? What areas do they live in, where do they work, and how do their views differ from "middle class" people?

As far as I can see, things are a lot more complex these days. For example, I live in a scheme, but the diversity of income here is just as marked as in society as a whole.

We have young familes, both parents working, wearing fancy clothes, and driving shiny cars. We have a variety of people on Disabilty, some have worked all their days, others have gone into it as a career choice.

What exactly do these people have in common? To lump them all in the same basket is wrong, IMO.

[BroxburnHibee]

Labour voter all my life until the last Holyrood election were I voted SNP purely to get the referendum.

Absolutely disgusted by the Labour tactics along with the rest of the No campaign and will NEVER vote for them again.

A YES alliance sounds a good idea but not sure how it could encompass the different political ideals into one electable party.

[Beefster]

A YES alliance sounds a good idea but not sure how it could encompass the different political ideals into one electable party.

Agreed.

One of the (admittedly many) reasons that I voted no is that you had every section of society being promised something would happen in an independent Scotland. Cutting tax, massive investment in green policies, the implementation of a socialist state, eradicating poverty, getting rid of nukes, staying in NATO, the pound, the EU etc etc etc. A lot of the promises were completely incompatible with each other.

Personally, aside from the fact that the referendum has been and gone, a Yes coalition of parties from the hard-left to centre-right would be equally as hard to take seriously. Despite all the talk of 'the 45', IMHO, independence is done and dusted (for this political generation) for the vast majority of the Scottish electorate, including a majority of those who voted yes. If your raison d'être is independence, you'd vote for anyone 'promising' it. The rest of us will look at wider, more pressing policies.

[Future17]

I would vote for Mr. Blobby before I voted Labour - I despise them.

Anyway, my Auntie is a Labour voter and wants to see a separate Labour YES movement of some sort.

But consider a ballot paper looking like this:


Scottish Labour Party
Socialist Labour Party
Scottish Labour for independence ?


:greengrin

"The Traditional Labour Party".

[lord bunberry]

I'm not a yes voter and I don't live in Scotland anymore so maybe I shouldn't comment on this thread but I can't see how the Labour Party in finished if despite its current utter ****ness it's still projected to wi ma majority in the House of Commons.


It seems the deck is well stacked in the party's favour.

(I should say I'm a former Labour member but for various reasons won't be voting for them any time soon).

I will be stunned if the Labour Party win an overall majority at the next election, I can see a Tory majority as far more likely.

[johnbc70]

I agree that some kind of Yes coalition would struggle to work and would be blighted by in-fighting and internal struggles for a bit of power. The Greens would likely get rid of oil tomorrow if they could or place such high costs on companies looking to extract it then it would not be worthwhile, while the SNP are looking for a second oil boom. Where is the common ground for such opposites.

I wonder how many of the new members of political parties like the SNP or the Greens have actually taken the time and read their actual policies on things like education and the environment or defence etc.

[HiBremian]

I agree that some kind of Yes coalition would struggle to work and would be blighted by in-fighting and internal struggles for a bit of power. The Greens would likely get rid of oil tomorrow if they could or place such high costs on companies looking to extract it then it would not be worthwhile, while the SNP are looking for a second oil boom. Where is the common ground for such opposites.

I wonder how many of the new members of political parties like the SNP or the Greens have actually taken the time and read their actual policies on things like education and the environment or defence etc.

The common ground right now is independence. The Labour Party, and indeed the tories, like to see themselves as a broad church, so I see less of a problem when diverse parties join together under a key common aim. The point is, Scotland needs to have its own energy/economy debate around oil, rather than simply watching on as London makes all the key decisions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Stranraer]

"The Traditional Labour Party".

I think Beefster makes a good point on this actually. There's too much division in the left in Scotland - SSP, Solidarity, Socialist Labour party and then at European elections the "No2EU yes to democracy" < a left wing version of UKIP.

Also, George Galloway's RESPECT is recruiting in Scotland now.