Alice Gross murder

[lugz]

Her body was found in a river near her house, devastating news and i can't even imagine what her family are going through.

The main suspect is a convicted murderer from Latvia that has been allowed into Britain to potentially commit this disgusting crime.

RIP Alice

[steakbake]

Her body was found in a river near her house, devastating news and i can't even imagine what her family are going through.

The main suspect is a convicted murderer from Latvia that has been allowed into Britain to potentially commit this disgusting crime.

RIP Alice

Terrible scenario for the family and those who knew her.

The fact he's Latvian though... something for the tabloids to run with. Personally, I don't see how it's relevant. As if we don't have some from here.

[Sir David Gray]

Terrible scenario for the family and those who knew her.

The fact he's Latvian though... something for the tabloids to run with. Personally, I don't see how it's relevant. As if we don't have some from here.

The fact that a foreign national with a murder conviction was allowed to enter the country in the first place is a major issue in my book.

I don't know the ins and outs of how the legal system works but convicted murderers from abroad should not be allowed to come here as far as I'm concerned.

As you've alluded to yourself, we have more than enough people of our own to worry about without taking on serious criminals from other countries as well.

At the moment we don't know if this man is guilty of murdering Alice Gross of course. I hope whoever is responsible for this terrible crime is caught as soon as possible and that they are put away for a very long time.

[steakbake]

That's fine - if you're that involved in the case and deeply affected by it, then bash on seething about the suspect being a 'foreigner'.

Point is: the EU is generally borderless. Therefore, people
move around - that's the whole point. In the same way people move around from one part of the UK to another. So the issue here is fundamentally, he's a foreigner.

[overdrive]

The fact that a foreign national with a murder conviction was allowed to enter the country in the first place is a major issue in my book.

I don't know the ins and outs of how the legal system works but convicted murderers from abroad should not be allowed to come here as far as I'm concerned.

As you've alluded to yourself, we have more than enough people of our own to worry about without taking on serious criminals from other countries as well.

At the moment we don't know if this man is guilty of murdering Alice Gross of course. I hope whoever is responsible for this terrible crime is caught as soon as possible and that they are put away for a very long time.

The trouble is... how do we stop it under the current set up though? Latvians have a right to be here under EU freedom of movement principles.

[steakbake]

The trouble is... how do we stop it under the current set up though? Latvians have a right to be here under EU freedom of movement principles.

As UK nationals have a right to be anywhere else in the EU.

[overdrive]

As UK nationals have a right to be anywhere else in the EU.

Indeed. Think of all the UK criminals in places such as Spain.

[steakbake]

Indeed. Think of all the UK criminals in places such as Spain.

Even with borders and control, it doesn't stop us exporting out paedophiles to places like Thailand and the Phillipines where sex tourism has a massive impact.

Of course I'm not defending the guy if indeed he's guilty, but this subtext of the dreaded foreigner is just bull****. At its basic level, why do middle aged weirdos of any nationality kill teenage girls? It happens regularly enough for it to be more of a human concern rather than one based on your passport.

[hibsbollah]

With Jimmy Saville in mind, lets close all borders round the Leeds area to stop it happening again.

What a load of nonsense.

Lets keep this to a RIP thread and leave the xenophobic posturing for somewhere else.

[lord bunberry]

I think people are being a bit harsh on trig here, the fact that this suspect is foreign means the death was preventable. There should be laws in place were if you're convicted of certain crimes then you shouldn't be allowed a passport. To me that's not being xenophobic, just sensible. I agree that as the law stands now there's nothing could have been done, but that doesn't make it right.

[Big Frank]

I think people are being a bit harsh on trig here, the fact that this suspect is foreign means the death was preventable. There should be laws in place were if you're convicted of certain crimes then you shouldn't be allowed a passport. To me that's not being xenophobic, just sensible. I agree that as the law stands now there's nothing could have been done, but that doesn't make it right.


yep, I agree. Trig not being xenephobic at all.

[Sir David Gray]

The trouble is... how do we stop it under the current set up though? Latvians have a right to be here under EU freedom of movement principles.

I'm aware of that and it's something which will hopefully be looked at in the event of a referendum on the EU in 2017.

I don't have a major problem with movement between EU countries being more relaxed compared with countries from further afield. However the current arrangement of basically an open border policy is something which I'm strongly opposed to.


I think people are being a bit harsh on trig here, the fact that this suspect is foreign means the death was preventable. There should be laws in place were if you're convicted of certain crimes then you shouldn't be allowed a passport. To me that's not being xenophobic, just sensible. I agree that as the law stands now there's nothing could have been done, but that doesn't make it right.

It's quite alright. I'm used to getting that sort of response on here to what is a perfectly normal and reasonable point of view. There's views expressed on here about many different subjects that I hardly see on any other platform so this doesn't come as a shock to me and the insults don't bother me in the slightest either.

I'm glad there's at least some balance being brought to the discussion though as the point you've made here is exactly my thoughts on the matter.

[hibsbollah]

It's quite alright. I'm used to getting that sort of response on here to what is a perfectly normal and reasonable point of view. There's views expressed on here about many different subjects that I hardly see on any other platform

I'm glad there's at least some balance being brought to the discussion

Are you suggesting that the holy ground is populated with rabid lefties and you get a harder time on here than you deserve? Personally I see much more completely unreconstructed and bizarre loony right wing and just weird views on here than I would expect to see from a variety of posters, but maybe thats because of the different other platforms we visit and compare with. Perhaps you should look at it from that context.

Personally I think the key issue for the country this case brings up is what we do as a society about sexual violence against women and girls, not an immediate reference to the suspect being non British. And as to your other point, 'balance' depends very much on your point of view.

RIP Alice Gross. My daughters age.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm aware of that and it's something which will hopefully be looked at in the event of a referendum on the EU in 2017.

I don't have a major problem with movement between EU countries being more relaxed compared with countries from further afield. However the current arrangement of basically an open border policy is something which I'm strongly opposed to.



It's quite alright. I'm used to getting that sort of response on here to what is a perfectly normal and reasonable point of view. There's views expressed on here about many different subjects that I hardly see on any other platform so this doesn't come as a shock to me and the insults don't bother me in the slightest either.

I'm glad there's at least some balance being brought to the discussion though as the point you've made here is exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Freedom of movement around the EU is a good thing IMO and though its true the suspect here would have been denied entry if from a non EU state there is little point in denying millions something worthwhile to stop bad things done by a tiny few. It may however be advisable to track the movements of convicted criminals in a stricter way EU wide.

It is never a good thing to have the tail wagging the dog ... that's why, hard on the relatives though it is, that the government don't cave in to terrorists who kidnap UK citizens and why folk like me get pissed off when millions of responsible drinkers have to pay more for a bottle of wine because a relative few have an alcohol problem.

That I am well aware is cold comfort to victims families .... but what sort of society do you have when the actions of the few are allowed to hamper progress and enjoyment for the many.

[snooky]

Freedom of movement around the EU is a good thing IMO and though its true the suspect here would have been denied entry if from a non EU state there is little point in denying millions something worthwhile to stop bad things done by a tiny few. It may however be advisable to track the movements of convicted criminals in a stricter way EU wide.

It is never a good thing to have the tail wagging the dog ... that's why, hard on the relatives though it is, that the government don't cave in to terrorists who kidnap UK citizens and why folk like me get pissed off when millions of responsible drinkers have to pay more for a bottle of wine because a relative few have an alcohol problem.

That I am well aware is cold comfort to victims families .... but what sort of society do you have when the actions of the few are allowed to hamper progress and enjoyment for the many.

So true. As it is in all walks of life. Laws and rules that affect everyone are made to stop a few.
Usually the few either ignore the law or rule or find ways to circumvent it while leaving the hoi polloi with less freedom.
This one of my big gripes with today' society.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I think people are being a bit harsh on trig here, the fact that this suspect is foreign means the death was preventable. There should be laws in place were if you're convicted of certain crimes then you shouldn't be allowed a passport. To me that's not being xenophobic, just sensible. I agree that as the law stands now there's nothing could have been done, but that doesn't make it right.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Her body was found in a river near her house, devastating news and i can't even imagine what her family are going through.

The main suspect is a convicted murderer from Latvia that has been allowed into Britain to potentially commit this disgusting crime.

RIP Alice

Sad news, I can't bear to think how I'd feel about it if I was her parents.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think people are being a bit harsh on trig here, the fact that this suspect is foreign means the death was preventable. There should be laws in place were if you're convicted of certain crimes then you shouldn't be allowed a passport. To me that's not being xenophobic, just sensible. I agree that as the law stands now there's nothing could have been done, but that doesn't make it right.

Have to say, I agree. We should also be prepared to stop British murderers leave the country too.

[lord bunberry]

Have to say, I agree. We should also be prepared to stop British murderers leave the country too.

Of course we should, it should apply across the board.

[emerald green]

If someone is convicted of the crime of murder, once that person has served their sentence, they should automatically also lose their right to travel around unimpeded and unchecked, no matter what country they happen to come from. Whether that country is a member of the EU or not. The law needs to be changed.

As a father myself, it's any parent's worst nightmare what has happened to that poor girl. Not only has her life been taken, but many others lives have been destroyed too.

[Hibrandenburg]

Of course we should, it should apply across the board.


Pity we didn't think like this a few centuries back, we wouldn't have that fizzy pish water Fosters if we had.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Pity we didn't think like this a few centuries back, we wouldn't have that fizzy pish water Fosters if we had.

Joking apart, that illustrates how expecting countries to hang onto their crooks is impractical. Most places are more than happy for such types to leave their shores.

[Hibrandenburg]

Joking apart, that illustrates how expecting countries to hang onto their crooks is impractical. Most places are more than happy for such types to leave their shores.

:agree: Was the point I was subliminally hinting at.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree: Was the point I was subliminally hinting at.

Sorry, I thought it was a plug for Castlemaine XXXX. :greengrin

[Colr]

The trouble is... how do we stop it under the current set up though? Latvians have a right to be here under EU freedom of movement principles.

Given that the UK has retained border controls a properly computerised border control system should let us know who is and isn't in the country - although we cannot stop them coming and going. I suspect that the border controls are rather porous, though.

[Pretty Boy]

How practical would it be to monitor criminals coming into any country as a matter of course? There's no criminal record info on a biometric passport so if someone wasn't on an Interpol or Europol list or high profile how could it be relaistically controlled?

Expecting countries to share criminal record info without due legal process is a logistical nightmare as well as open to all kinds of legal challenges. At what point is the line drawn? Murder? Rape? Armed robbery? Fraud? You could potentially have someone who commited a minor crime at 18 year old questioned every time they tried to cross a border. It essentially relies on peoples honesty. The US has sone of the strictest border controls going on paper but only shares criminal record info with Canada. In theory someone in the UK with a conviction for shoplifting 20 years ago has to apply for a Visa and attend interviews in London or Belfast with a strong chance of being refused, in practice hundreds if not thousands of people a year tick the no criminal convictions box on the ESTA waiver form and walk into the US for 2 weeks in Florida with no issues.

What happened in this case is absolutely tragic but I'm not sure there's a massive amount that, practically speaking, could have been done to prevent it.

[lord bunberry]

How practical would it be to monitor criminals coming into any country as a matter of course? There's no criminal record info on a biometric passport so if someone wasn't on an Interpol or Europol list or high profile how could it be relaistically controlled?

Expecting countries to share criminal record info without due legal process is a logistical nightmare as well as open to all kinds of legal challenges. At what point is the line drawn? Murder? Rape? Armed robbery? Fraud? You could potentially have someone who commited a minor crime at 18 year old questioned every time they tried to cross a border. It essentially relies on peoples honesty. The US has sone of the strictest border controls going on paper but only shares criminal record info with Canada. In theory someone in the UK with a conviction for shoplifting 20 years ago has to apply for a Visa and attend interviews in London or Belfast with a strong chance of being refused, in practice hundreds if not thousands of people a year tick the no criminal convictions box on the ESTA waiver form and walk into the US for 2 weeks in Florida with no issues.

What happened in this case is absolutely tragic but I'm not sure there's a massive amount that, practically speaking, could have been done to prevent it.

Refusing passports to convicted murderers would have stopped it happening. I don't consider myself particularly right wing, in fact I openly embrace the right of people to move country in order to make a better life for themselves and their family. I challenge anyone to look into the eyes of their family and say that if they could make things better by moving to another country they wouldn't take that opportunity. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere, imo the rights of criminals is often seen as being more important than protecting the innocent. If this man is guilty then the system has failed this poor girl and her family.

[Killiehibbie]

Murderers, once released, are on licence for the rest of their life. If they move to another country do the same conditions apply?

[Bristolhibby]

Refusing passports to convicted murderers would have stopped it happening. I don't consider myself particularly right wing, in fact I openly embrace the right of people to move country in order to make a better life for themselves and their family. I challenge anyone to look into the eyes of their family and say that if they could make things better by moving to another country they wouldn't take that opportunity. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere, imo the rights of criminals is often seen as being more important than protecting the innocent. If this man is guilty then the system has failed this poor girl and her family.

It might have stopped him killing a British girl, but not a French, Dutch or German girl.

It's messed up, but as has been pointed out, we can't stop criminals who have served their time coming to the UK. Just as we can't kick out criminals from the UK who are UK CItizens. Somthing 'Call me Dave' seems to forget when talking about stripping citizenship from British fighters in Syria & Iraq.

RIP Alice. Such a tragedy.

J

[heretoday]

Glad to see BBC Question Time has been rapped for chatting about this case last night.

The media devours everything in its path and moves on.

Think how the family must feel.

[lord bunberry]

It might have stopped him killing a British girl, but not a French, Dutch or German girl.

It's messed up, but as has been pointed out, we can't stop criminals who have served their time coming to the UK. Just as we can't kick out criminals from the UK who are UK CItizens. Somthing 'Call me Dave' seems to forget when talking about stripping citizenship from British fighters in Syria & Iraq.

RIP Alice. Such a tragedy.

J
If his passport was taken off him after he was convicted then he wouldn't have been able to leave his country

[hibsbollah]

Glad to see BBC Question Time has been rapped for chatting about this case last night.

The media devours everything in its path and moves on.

Think how the family must feel.

It was 'Extremely insensitive to use my family's tragedy for political agendas and discussion'. Nina Gross, Alice's sister, after the eight minute debate on controlling immigration that stemmed from a question about the murder on Question Time last night. The BBC has apologised.

[hibsbollah]

If his passport was taken off him after he was convicted then he wouldn't have been able to leave his country

He wouldnt have been able to leave the country after his conviction regardless of his passport situation because he was in prison for seven years. If you mean after he was released from prison, you are suggesting we should withhold passports for everyone convicted of violent offences anywhere in the world, an extremely difficult thing to achieve. Does Duncan Ferguson lose the right to go to the Algarve or wherever every summer because of his violence conviction and time in prison? Or are we only talking murder and sex offences? And how do you get 200 different legal systems across the world to agree to this?

Its absolutely impossible to do. And it obfuscates the real issue.

[WeeRussell]

It might have stopped him killing a British girl, but not a French, Dutch or German girl.

It's messed up, but as has been pointed out, we can't stop criminals who have served their time coming to the UK. Just as we can't kick out criminals from the UK who are UK CItizens. Somthing 'Call me Dave' seems to forget when talking about stripping citizenship from British fighters in Syria & Iraq.

RIP Alice. Such a tragedy.

J

Exactly what I was thinking all the way through reading this :agree:

You don't stop murderers by preventing them from travelling.

RIP. Tragic.

[lord bunberry]

He wouldnt have been able to leave the country after his conviction regardless of his passport situation because he was in prison for seven years. If you mean after he was released from prison, you are suggesting we should withhold passports for everyone convicted of violent offences anywhere in the world, an extremely difficult thing to achieve. Does Duncan Ferguson lose the right to go to the Algarve or wherever every summer because of his violence conviction and time in prison? Or are we only talking murder and sex offences? And how do you get 200 different legal systems across the world to agree to this?

Its absolutely impossible to do. And it obfuscates the real issue.

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind but if you want to make it simpler to implement then why not make it just for murder, i wasn't suggesting a worldwide agreement only an EU agreement. Individual countries will already have legislation in place to stop criminals from non EU countries entering. I can't see why anyone would be happy with the current state of affairs and I doubt many would be as pragmatic if the recent course of events was a little closer to home

[lord bunberry]

Exactly what I was thinking all the way through reading this :agree:

You don't stop murderers by preventing them from travelling.

RIP. Tragic.
I'm sorry but you can stop murderers by stopping them travelling. If this man is guilty then a ban on him travelling would have stopped him committing this crime. He could have committed a similar crime in his own country, but you would hope the local police would have a better knowledge of his whereabouts than our police. In another country he's just another foreign national here to make a living

[hibsbollah]

I can't see why anyone would be happy with the current state of affairs and I doubt many would be as pragmatic if the recent course of events was a little closer to home

Well thats a nice thought. I hold the views I do because im not Alice's father, is that what you're implying? Cheers for that :rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

Well thats a nice thought. I hold the views I do because im not Alice's father, is that what you're implying? Cheers for that :rolleyes:

Come on you can do better than that, that's not what I was implying at all, I was suggesting that if that murder had happened in edinburgh then the pragmatism wouldn't have been so evident. You seem to be very keen to support a system that has failed a family because it's to difficult to implement something else and suggesting anyone who differs from that view is being xenophobic. I already asked you and you didn't answer, do you think the current system is satisfactory?

[RyeSloan]

Come on you can do better than that, that's not what I was implying at all, I was suggesting that if that murder had happened in edinburgh then the pragmatism wouldn't have been so evident. You seem to be very keen to support a system that has failed a family because it's to difficult to implement something else and suggesting anyone who differs from that view is being xenophobic. I already asked you and you didn't answer, do you think the current system is satisfactory?

Satisfactory in what regard?

[hibsbollah]

Come on you can do better than that, that's not what I was implying at all, I was suggesting that if that murder had happened in edinburgh then the pragmatism wouldn't have been so evident. You seem to be very keen to support a system that has failed a family because it's to difficult to implement something else and suggesting anyone who differs from that view is being xenophobic. I already asked you and you didn't answer, do you think the current system is satisfactory?

Sorry, im done with this.

[lord bunberry]

Satisfactory in what regard?

In regard to the fact that a convicted murderer can leave his own country and continue his evil ways elsewhere. When the free movement of people was conceived I doubt this is what they had in mind. Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that certain people should have that right denied. I suspect this is coming round to a human rights debate, but IMO human rights doesn't include the freedom to travel abroad.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

According to the BBC police searching for Arnis Zalkalns have found a body in dense woodland in West London. It doesn't actually say the body is his but, I think we can probably surmise that it is.

[Pete]

According to the BBC police searching for Arnis Zalkalns have found a body in dense woodland in West London. It doesn't actually say the body is his but, I think we can probably surmise that it is.

Body badly decomposed so it's probably been there for a while.

Putting two and two together - this looks like an even more tragic episode than first imagined. The family of Alice will be left with a sense of grief and injustice but the family of of Arnis Zalkalns will also be left with questions that will never be answered.

[Jonnyboy]

Body badly decomposed so it's probably been there for a while.

Putting two and two together - this looks like an even more tragic episode than first imagined. The family of Alice will be left with a sense of grief and injustice but the family of of Arnis Zalkalns will also be left with questions that will never be answered.

Police suggesting it is indeed him

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29495030

[Hibrandenburg]

The hyperbole has kicked off big style today. Sky News' headline story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802322/staggering-failure-deal-foreign-criminals-laid-bare-stroll-uk-unchecked-commit-new-crimes-pleading-human-rights-dodge-deportation.html

[hibsbollah]

The hyperbole has kicked off big style today. Sky News' headline story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802322/staggering-failure-deal-foreign-criminals-laid-bare-stroll-uk-unchecked-commit-new-crimes-pleading-human-rights-dodge-deportation.html

The Guardian also has the story as its lead, but predictably but rightly IMO puts the blame firmly at the door of the Govt and Theresa May, who has milked the Foreign Rapists are Running Amok headline for all its worth but has failed to 'solve the problem'. Her Labour predecessor was forced out of office for the same failures. The Mail wont tell you, because Paul Dacre doesnt want it to, but the human rights act has nothing to do with the issue. If it was a Labour administration everyone in the right wing media would be calling for heads to roll.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/03/scrapping-human-rights-law-european-court-ukip

[steakbake]

The Guardian also has the story as its lead, but predictably but rightly IMO puts the blame firmly at the door of the Govt and Theresa May, who has milked the Foreign Rapists are Running Amok headline for all its worth but has failed to 'solve the problem'. Her Labour predecessor was forced out of office for the same failures. The Mail wont tell you, because Paul Dacre doesnt want it to, but the human rights act has nothing to do with the issue. If it was a Labour administration everyone in the right wing media would be calling for heads to roll.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/03/scrapping-human-rights-law-european-court-ukip

Just reading the excellent Owen Jones' book "The Establishment - and how they get away with it" at the moment. There's a chapter on the media and certainly he makes a valid point that opinion gets dressed up as fact and journalists often lazily find an angle from the myriad of press releases they receive from all sorts of vested interests for a short cut to an angle and a story.

He also makes the case that the media - including the grand old BBC - often find an angle on a story that presents it disproportionately. So, on this, the fact a Latvian man who had previous for murder is used to cast a shadow on all EU migration. Similarly, examples of a questionable appeal under human rights grounds looks set to see us all lose out as the UK backs away from human rights legislation on the basis of a small number of publicised cases compared to the millions of people who benefit from the protection of such legislation but will (hopefully) never need to use it. If we do ultimately do so, it will be us and that bastion of democracy and human rights, Belarus, standing on the outside looking in.

If you think some kind of replacement British Constitution enshrining your rights will protect you, let me give an example.

In my area of work (immigration), I have just read a policy intention document from the Home Office that will remove all appeal rights for visa applicants within the UK. It also removes the right of appeal that companies and organisations have to challenge decisions.

This, despite the fact that our nearest Immigration Tribunal (Glasgow) finds just under 50% of cases in favour of the appellant and a large portion of those due to poor decision making and procedural errors at the Home Office. That's before I get into the fact that many people working as caseworkers and administrators for UKV&I are on close to the minimum wage and are supplied by external contractors.

There are no appeal rights, no right to question the due process of law through a due process of law... do you trust a British government to protect your rights and uphold a due process and impartiality of law? On this evidence, I don't.

Still... as long as the red tops and pseudo broadsheets that we consume are happy that "foreigners in Strasbourg" or even the wigs in the Court of Appeal, aren't dictating the terms of our human rights, we can all sleep easy.

It's complete madness and without one word of intended hyperbole, that kind of legislation and lack of protection in the law are what authoritarian regimes are based on: hence the unsavoury company we'll be keeping if the UK does uncouple itself from ECHR (which we helped to found in the first place to protect people from authoritarian government).

[hibsbollah]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/helps-every-day-what-human-4375438

Good post steakbake. The Mirror published this above a couple of weeks ago (a return to the kind of proper journalism they did when Paul Foot was there). The thing that critics of the ECHR forget is that it often protects British people here and abroad. This case below is a prime example of what happens when you don't have global standards of human rights. We need to set an example.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/22/burmese-men-thailand-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-withdraw-confessions

[Betty Boop]

Just reading the excellent Owen Jones' book "The Establishment - and how they get away with it" at the moment. There's a chapter on the media and certainly he makes a valid point that opinion gets dressed up as fact and journalists often lazily find an angle from the myriad of press releases they receive from all sorts of vested interests for a short cut to an angle and a story.

He also makes the case that the media - including the grand old BBC - often find an angle on a story that presents it disproportionately. So, on this, the fact a Latvian man who had previous for murder is used to cast a shadow on all EU migration. Similarly, examples of a questionable appeal under human rights grounds looks set to see us all lose out as the UK backs away from human rights legislation on the basis of a small number of publicised cases compared to the millions of people who benefit from the protection of such legislation but will (hopefully) never need to use it. If we do ultimately do so, it will be us and that bastion of democracy and human rights, Belarus, standing on the outside looking in.

If you think some kind of replacement British Constitution enshrining your rights will protect you, let me give an example.

In my area of work (immigration), I have just read a policy intention document from the Home Office that will remove all appeal rights for visa applicants within the UK. It also removes the right of appeal that companies and organisations have to challenge decisions.

This, despite the fact that our nearest Immigration Tribunal (Glasgow) finds just under 50% of cases in favour of the appellant and a large portion of those due to poor decision making and procedural errors at the Home Office. That's before I get into the fact that many people working as caseworkers and administrators for UKV&I are on close to the minimum wage and are supplied by external contractors.

There are no appeal rights, no right to question the due process of law through a due process of law... do you trust a British government to protect your rights and uphold a due process and impartiality of law? On this evidence, I don't.

Still... as long as the red tops and pseudo broadsheets that we consume are happy that "foreigners in Strasbourg" or even the wigs in the Court of Appeal, aren't dictating the terms of our human rights, we can all sleep easy.

It's complete madness and without one word of intended hyperbole, that kind of legislation and lack of protection in the law are what authoritarian regimes are based on: hence the unsavoury company we'll be keeping if the UK does uncouple itself from ECHR (which we helped to found in the first place to protect people from authoritarian government).


Do you know that Owen Jones is speaking about his book, tonight at The Radical Book Fair, at Out of The Blue Drill Hall in Dalmeny Street ?

[steakbake]

Do you know that Owen Jones is speaking about his book, tonight at The Radical Book Fair, at Out of The Blue Drill Hall in Dalmeny Street ?

Yeah, sadly can't make it tonight. Ironically because I'm heading to London for a meeting right at the heart of the beast haha

[Hibernia&Alba]

There are some interesting posts on this thread. Steakbake makes a particularly strong post. The Tory proposal to abolish the ECHR in the UK is a new low, even for them.


Alice's funeral today. RIP young lady. A young life brutally ended, and one can't even begin to imagine what it must be like for the parents.

[Phil D. Rolls]

No doubt people will be equally angry about this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29871031

[hibsbollah]

:agree:
Violent crime is virtually unknown in Hong Kong. As it is in South Korea, Japan, Singapore and great swathes of Asia. I wonder how they feel about us and our violent western bankers flooding into their countries.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Has he been found guilty already? ;-)

[EH6 Hibby]

No doubt people will be equally angry about this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29871031

Was this man a convicted murderer before moving to Hong Kong?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Was this man a convicted murderer before moving to Hong Kong?

I don't know.

[EH6 Hibby]

I don't know.

I'd imagine at 29, it's fairly safe to say he wasn't, unless he committed murder at a very young age. My point was, the reason people are angry about Alice Gross's murder is that the man who killed her, should not have been allowed into the country, not that he was foreign.

[Sylar]

I'd imagine at 29, it's fairly safe to say he wasn't, unless he committed murder at a very young age. My point was, the reason people are angry about Alice Gross's murder is that the man who killed her, should not have been allowed into the country, not that he was foreign.

He was a Cambridge graduate in a good job as a trader with Merrill Lynch, who appears to have had a psychotic breakdown (based on the brief detail we have from media reports).

[Phil D. Rolls]

He was a Cambridge graduate in a good job as a trader with Merrill Lynch, who appears to have had a psychotic breakdown (based on the brief detail we have from media reports).

Those well known experts on psychiatric illness. HTF can they tell what his mindset is.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'd imagine at 29, it's fairly safe to say he wasn't, unless he committed murder at a very young age. My point was, the reason people are angry about Alice Gross's murder is that the man who killed her, should not have been allowed into the country, not that he was foreign.

A fair and balanced point.

[Sylar]

Those well known experts on psychiatric illness. HTF can they tell what his mindset is.

Actually, it was apparently he himself who suggested it (based on his email signature he left on his account).

Seems a pretty convenient excuse mind you!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Actually, it was apparently he himself who suggested it (based on his email signature he left on his account).

Seems a pretty convenient excuse mind you!

It's amazing how quickly people realise they are mad once the police show up.