If there was a general election tomorrow

[Pretty Boy]

How would you vote?

Just for interest.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The bottom option (quite apt given this mornings result), cannae add to the poll via phone.

[degenerated]

It wouldn't have been before but it would be SNP now

[marinello59]

I don't vote on party lines any more so can't answer this . My vote goes to the candidate who I think will best represent where I live.

[Judas Iscariot]

Scotland would mostly be a Tory vote now no?

[cabbageandribs1875]

easy decision, the only party in Scotland that fights for Scotland, and it certainly ain't the new Liebour/Tory alliance party :greengrin

[Jack]

I think I'd skip a Westminster election, maybe SNP. I didn't trust that lot down there before, even less now.

In a Holyrood election the SNP are on a hiding to nothing if they were to win; Labour might be effective if Labour win the next Westminster election but I can't see that happening.

Scotland may well pull itself together after the referendum but politically I think it's going to be a quagmire trying to move forward.

[DarrenSQH]

SNP like I always have

[stoneyburn hibs]

I would sit it out, and the next one.
Vote Conservative Scotland, you know it makes sense.

[marinello59]

I would sit it out, and the next one.
Vote Conservative Scotland, you know it makes sense.

That really doesn't make sense .:confused:

[stoneyburn hibs]

That really doesn't make sense .:confused:

One of us doesn't get it, makes sense to me. Scotland gave the Conservatives a mandate last night.

[Beefster]

From now on, I'll probably vote Labour. I live in East Lothian so my vote won't make the blindest bit of difference. Might help keep their vote up given the folk vowing never to vote for them again.

[Speedy]

Probably wouldn't bother, it's a waste of my time. If I did then probably SNP.

[Sylar]

Hard to say - being based in a Tory heartland, it feels a redundant question.

[Moulin Yarns]

I have opted for the party I am going to join, but doubt they will be an option (and wouldn't get in anyway) but if there isn't a candidate standing, then SNP for me.

[lord bunberry]

I decided a few weeks ago that I wouldn't vote in another Westminster election.

[The Harp Awakes]

The Labour Party are a disgrace. Can't believe I used to vote for that party religiously all those years ago. Scottish Labour politicians used to own the streets. Now they will have to hide. I cannot wait until the next Scottish elections when they will be wiped out.

SNP for me. There is no other option now if you want social justice in Scotland.

[Onceinawhile]

I'll be voting green.

labour, conservatives and lib dems are all one entity. Snp are an option, but let's face it their raison d'etre is independence, and that won't happen, so really what's the point.

[The Harp Awakes]

I'll be voting green.

labour, conservatives and lib dems are all one entity. Snp are an option, but let's face it their raison d'etre is independence, and that won't happen, so really what's the point.

I disagree for 3 reasons:

1. The UK will vote to come out of the EU in the next few years against Scottish opinion;
2. The Labour Party's support in Scotland will disintegrate and Westminster Governments will continue to shift to the right.
3. The SNPs majority will increase at the next Scottish elections and the Holyrood Government will continue to move to the left with increased powers.

As a result I believe there will be another independence referendum within 10 years. Not soon enough for many but when it comes, independence will be won next time. If that's what you want the only option is to vote SNP.

[RyeSloan]

I disagree for 3 reasons: 1. The UK will vote to come out of the EU in the next few years against Scottish opinion; 2. The Labour Party's support in Scotland will disintegrate and Westminster Governments will continue to shift to the right. 3. The SNPs majority will increase at the next Scottish elections and the Holyrood Government will continue to move to the left with increased powers. As a result I believe there will be another independence referendum within 10 years. Not soon enough for many but when it comes, independence will be won next time. If that's what you want the only option is to vote SNP.

Maybe just maybe this shows that that a lot of Scotland doesn't want a continuing shift to the left? And maybe it was the threat of this that encouraged people to vote No?

I think the linking of an independent Scotland to some sort of new socialist state is the wrong card to play.

[ronaldo7]

Voted labour, all my days, won't give them a second glance. Snp in the next two elections for me unless a grass roots left wing party emerges from the YES movement.

[MB62]

I disagree for 3 reasons:

1. The UK will vote to come out of the EU in the next few years against Scottish opinion;
2. The Labour Party's support in Scotland will disintegrate and Westminster Governments will continue to shift to the right.
3. The SNPs majority will increase at the next Scottish elections and the Holyrood Government will continue to move to the left with increased powers.

As a result I believe there will be another independence referendum within 10 years. Not soon enough for many but when it comes, independence will be won next time. If that's what you want the only option is to vote SNP.

Agree almost totally with you there, I just think it might take a wee tad longer for the next one and we will not have another referendum before 2030.




The Labour Party are a disgrace. Can't believe I used to vote for that party religiously all those years ago. Scottish Labour politicians used to own the streets. Now they will have to hide. I cannot wait until the next Scottish elections when they will be wiped out.

SNP for me. There is no other option now if you want social justice in Scotland.

:top marks

[The Harp Awakes]

Maybe just maybe this shows that that a lot of Scotland doesn't want a continuing shift to the left? And maybe it was the threat of this that encouraged people to vote No?

I think the linking of an independent Scotland to some sort of new socialist state is the wrong card to play.

Maybe. There are examples of countries who follow left of centre policies which are also economically sound, e.g., in Scandinavia. For me that should be the type of country Scotland should model itself on.

[overdrive]

Maybe just maybe this shows that that a lot of Scotland doesn't want a continuing shift to the left? And maybe it was the threat of this that encouraged people to vote No?

I think the linking of an independent Scotland to some sort of new socialist state is the wrong card to play.

The thing is, I'm not convinced an independent Scotland would be as much towards the left as what a lot of people think. There seems to be a body of thought that we'd automatically be some sort of utopia.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Maybe just maybe this shows that that a lot of Scotland doesn't want a continuing shift to the left? And maybe it was the threat of this that encouraged people to vote No?

I think the linking of an independent Scotland to some sort of new socialist state is the wrong card to play.


Yeah, I kind of agree with this, and I think the weight of no votes geographically represents this to some extent.

I think I would vote Tory at next election. SNP is a wasted vote at Westminster in my constituency, and I want to kick Labour (my MP is A Darling) so Tories are best bet for a tactical vote.

[marinello59]

One of us doesn't get it, makes sense to me. Scotland gave the Conservatives a mandate last night.

Don't worry, after you've stopped throwing your toys out of the pram you will get there.:greengrin

[heretoday]

The thing is, I'm not convinced an independent Scotland would be as much towards the left as what a lot of people think. There seems to be a body of thought that we'd automatically be some sort of utopia.

That's why a lot of old Labourites voted Yes. They saw it as a short cut to a socialist republic.

These are the same folk who used to call the SNP splitters and irrelevant not so long ago.

[lucky]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

[JeMeSouviens]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

For Westminster? Given the 3 options for Government are Tories, Tories or a Tory/Tory coalition, I'm struggling to see why it's worth the bother. Hope Scottish MPs get reduced to part time salaries now they're going to be (even more) part time.

[DaveF]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

Most will, but I, and I suspect a few others won't entertain the idea of voting Labour ever again.

Out of interest, are you a New Labour or pre makover Labour supporter?

[Pretty Boy]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

So because the views of .net don't represent a wider audienc discussing them is a waste of time?

My friends and families views don't represent the views of a wider Edinburgh or Scotland, that became clear last night, so should I not bother discussing anything with them again either as it would be a waste of time.

[JeMeSouviens]

So because the views of .net don't represent a wider audienc discussing them is a waste of time?

My friends and families views don't represent the views of a wider Edinburgh or Scotland, that became clear last night, so should I not bother discussing anything with them again either as it would be a waste of time.

It's not worth the risk, eat your cereal, if you don't know, vote Labour. :rolleyes:

[Bad Martini]

So because the views of .net don't represent a wider audienc discussing them is a waste of time?

My friends and families views don't represent the views of a wider Edinburgh or Scotland, that became clear last night, so should I not bother discussing anything with them again either as it would be a waste of time.

I can help you here. If your friends and family voted no, you should definitely not bother discussing anything with them again as it's a waste of time as you say. If, on the other hand, it was you who voted no, they're in the right and I fully agree that they shouldn't bother discussing anything with you again :greengrin:na na:

[Hibrandenburg]

How would you vote?

Just for interest.

Not interested, what's the ****ing point?

[LancashireHibby]

It would be Labour, but they could stick a red ribbon on a monkey round here and it would be voted in. Essentially it would be to make sure UKIP don't get any representation, though I do feel the size of their support is greatly exaggerated by the media. Not that a biased media could ever have any influence on a campaign, of course....!

[bawheid]

I was thinking about this this morning. Who on earth is there for Scottish Yes supporters to vote for at Westminster in 2015.

Miliband? Cameron? Clegg? Farage?

****ing hell!!!

[bawheid]

Also agree that Labour in Scotland is screwed.

[allmodcons]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

Honest answer. Did you vote in the poll?

[The Baldmans Comb]

SNP at either Scottish or British general elections for me.

This seems to be the only logical vote if you are looking for sort of "change" or social justice or for some sort of protection from the Tory/UKIP or Red Tory/UKIP tsunami that must arise over the next 15 years or so.

In a Scottish context a word for the Greens though and Partick Harvie who grew and grew in stature throughout the campaign.

[NOLA]

Greens😊

[BroxburnHibee]

This is a great thread lads, another total waste of time as views of . Net don't come close to representing the views of Edinburgh or the Lothians. But let's be serious surely you should wait and see what's on offer from each party before deciding who to vote for next year!

Errrrrrrr? Read the thread title again.

Labour has lost my vote for good unless something drastic changes.

SNP until then.

[marinello59]

SNP at either Scottish or British general elections for me.

This seems to be the only logical vote if you are looking for sort of "change" or social justice or for some sort of protection from the Tory/UKIP or Red Tory/UKIP tsunami that must arise over the next 15 years or so.

In a Scottish context a word for the Greens though and Partick Harvie who grew and grew in stature throughout the campaign.

They're the same as the rest. Happy to implement middle class crowd pleasers at Holyrood to ensure they get voted back in instead of targeting the money to where it could do the most good. (Did I mention I have no time for any of the major parties any more. :greengrin)

[Tyler Durden]

The Labour Party are a disgrace. Can't believe I used to vote for that party religiously all those years ago. Scottish Labour politicians used to own the streets. Now they will have to hide. I cannot wait until the next Scottish elections when they will be wiped out.

SNP for me. There is no other option now if you want social justice in Scotland.

Re your last sentence, do you mind explaining why you feel that way?

[MyJo]

In order of preference

SNP
Greens
Monster Raving Loony Party
Jimmy Krankie
My neighbours dog who keeps s**tting in my garden.
Rolf Harris
Labour
Conservative

[DaveF]

In order of preference

SNP
Greens
Monster Raving Loony Party
Jimmy Krankie
My neighbours dog who keeps s**tting in my garden.
Rolf Harris
Labour
Conservative

Labour before the Tories :shocked:

[Pretty Boy]

I voted wouldn't vote this morning in a wee fit of temper.

In a general election I honestly don't know how I'd vote at the moment. None of the parties speak to me really, none of the ones that have a hope of winning anyway.

The Scottish Parliament is different. I'd almost certainly vote Green or SSP. Having both those parties with a few seats (the SSP once had 6 and a 6.5% share of the vote) in parliaments past gave a great additional voice and the SSP certainly used their seats wisely by helping to abolish warrant sales.

[Sir David Gray]

From the list given, I would vote either UKIP or Conservative.

I could never vote Green, SSP, SNP, Labour or Lib Dem.

Hopefully if the Conservatives get in next year they will stick to their pledge to give us a referendum on EU membership in 2017.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Scotland would mostly be a Tory vote now no?

Lost me? Why would they go from 4 to 1?

[HibeeLR]

SNP or greens for me.

[One Day Soon]

Scotland would mostly be a Tory vote now no?

Bitter and silly

[Pretty Boy]

Lib Dems doing well I see.

[Canongatehibs]

Here's a question for No people....

are you happy to vote in SNP again to continue to collect your free prescriptions, free uni fees, council tax freeze etc?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Here's a question for No people....

are you happy to vote in SNP again to continue to collect your free prescriptions, free uni fees, council tax freeze etc?

I didn't vote snp? Do I need to start voting on them now?

And I had no problem with prescription fees and don't go to uni.

[over the line]

If Scotland wants to keep the Tories out of Westminster, isn't voting Labour the only realistic option?

[Pretty Boy]

If Scotland wants to keep the Tories out of Westminster, isn't voting Labour the only realistic option?

Tbh whilst the thought of 4 or 5 more years of Tory rule scares me, I can't say I take any comfort fron Labour being the alternative.

[One Day Soon]

Here's a question for No people....

are you happy to vote in SNP again to continue to collect your free prescriptions, free uni fees, council tax freeze etc?

I don't vote SNP and I'm opposed to all those policies. They benefit the wealthy disproportionately, they're not redistributive and they are incompatible with a commitment to social justice.

[over the line]

Tbh whilst the thought of 4 or 5 more years of Tory rule scares me, I can't say I take any comfort fron Labour being the alternative.

It's a bit of a Hobson's choice admittedly, but Labour are still a slightly better option IMHO.

[Eyrie]

Here's a question for No people....

are you happy to vote in SNP again to continue to collect your free prescriptions, free uni fees, council tax freeze etc?

I didn't vote for the SNP at the last election, but I still have to put up with an SNP MSP and an SNP government at Holyrood. Maybe next time I'll find I've voted for the party that gets in, but I doubt it. It's called democracy :dunno:

As regards the policies listed, I had no problem paying for an annual prescription (think it was £100), don't agree with free uni fees (why should someone who gets a job at 18 pay taxes to support someone training to be a high earning lawyer or accountant?) and regard the council tax freeze as a de facto tax on those who need council services.

[The_Exile]

I didn't vote for the SNP at the last election, but I still have to put up with an SNP MSP and an SNP government at Holyrood. Maybe next time I'll find I've voted for the party that gets in, but I doubt it. It's called democracy :dunno:

As regards the policies listed, I had no problem paying for an annual prescription (think it was £100), don't agree with free uni fees (why should someone who gets a job at 18 pay taxes to support someone training to be a high earning lawyer or accountant?) and regard the council tax freeze as a de facto tax on those who need council services.

Struggling to comprehend why any 18 year old would take on a job if they could get free tuition to enrich their future prospects. Hundreds of thousands can't afford to put food on the table so clearly could not afford an annual prescription.

[RyeSloan]

Struggling to comprehend why any 18 year old would take on a job if they could get free tuition to enrich their future prospects. Hundreds of thousands can't afford to put food on the table so clearly could not afford an annual prescription.

They would take a job for exactly the reasons you state in your last sentence?

[over the line]

Struggling to comprehend why any 18 year old would take on a job if they could get free tuition to enrich their future prospects. Hundreds of thousands can't afford to put food on the table so clearly could not afford an annual prescription.

Not everyone wants or needs further or higher education, free or not (I am one of those people). Why should those people subsidise other people to better themselves? I had to pay for my own HGV licence, no one gave that to me for free. I accept certain vital careers and certain groups of people should get help with regards to education though.

[The Harp Awakes]

Re your last sentence, do you mind explaining why you feel that way?

Because every other political party in the UK capable of power don't give a stuff about the poor and underprivileged. Th Labour Party used to but they have sold their soul to the devil.

The SNP have been an effective Government in Scotland and have delivered policies which benefit the less well off in the country, e.g., free prescriptions.

[The_Exile]

Not everyone wants or needs further or higher education, free or not (I am one of those people). Why should those people subsidise other people to better themselves? I had to pay for my own HGV licence, no one gave that to me for free. I accept certain vital careers and certain groups of people should get help within regards to education though.

That's a personal choice that the person makes, all tuition should be free regardless of subject. It encourages people to learn and be curious about certain things/subjects which is great! and would hopefully see them earning more in a job they enjoy and are very good at, therefore contributing more tax. I can't see a downside to free tuition and, with respect, the attitude of "why should I pay for it" is really disappointing. Why should anybody pay for anything in that case?

Looks like we will neec to agree to disagree on this one :greengrin

Edit: I also left school at 15 and went straight into work a couple of months later, so no bias on my part.

[The_Exile]

Because every other political party in the UK capable of power don't give a stuff about the poor and underprivileged. Th Labour Party used to but they have sold their soul to the devil.

The SNP have been an effective Government in Scotland and have delivered policies which benefit the less well off in the country, e.g., free prescriptions.

Agreed, Scotland is a left of centre country. Labour abandoned that over a decade ago, it's certainly no coincidence the SNP have been in power since 2007.

[over the line]

That's a personal choice that the person makes, all tuition should be free regardless of subject. It encourages people to learn and be curious about certain things/subjects which is great! and would hopefully see them earning more in a job they enjoy and are very good at, therefore contributing more tax. I can't see a downside to free tuition and, with respect, the attitude of "why should I pay for it" is really disappointing. Why should anybody pay for anything in that case?

Looks like we will neec to agree to disagree on this one :greengrin

Edit: I also left school at 15 and went straight into work a couple of months later, so no bias on my part.

Well nothing is free is it? But I know what you mean. One of my kids is paying for an HNC this year and almost certainly going to Uni next year. She will pay tuition fees and that is fair enough. If paying for something puts people off it, then maybe they aren't that committed to it really. I mean the payment terms for education/student loans are so favourable, its not that big a deal IMO.

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm intrigued by a number of posts across various threads, including this one, from unhappy Yes voters

They essentially say the same - "I'll never vote Labour again".

The rationale doesn't add up though.

This country's Labour movement's origins are in the co-operative and socialist movements that arose out of the Industrial Revolution. They pretty much repudiated ideologies like nationalism as they got in the way of recognising the plight of workers, regardless of a line on a map or the colour of the flag on your town hall.

Labour has evolved since those days. The Labour of Clement Attlee that created the NHS is a different beast from the Labour of the Tolpuddle Martyrs or even Keir Hardie.

The Labour of Harold Wilson that protected people who had been exploited by introducing the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Health and Safety at Work etc Act is a different beast from the government of Attlee and Bevan.

The Labour of Blair and Brown that introduced the national minimum wage and tax credits for the vulnerable is different still from Wilson.

The Labour of Miliband hasn't held office yet but it still stopped us going to war in Syria, still drove Leveson and the end of Murdoch's NOTW and still drove the agenda on our electricity and gas prices. That's different again from Blair.

The Tory press has made a big play about Miliband being a return to socialism, an accusation that never could have been levelled against Tony.

The Labour movement is evolutionary - that's the whole point. It's also not nationalist, that's incompatible with its DNA.

So, for all the accusers, answer this. Why would a movement that believes social justice is impeded by boundaries and borders and by difference - why would such a movement do anything else than resist a campaign to create more boundaries, borders and differences?

[marinello59]

Because every other political party in the UK capable of power don't give a stuff about the poor and underprivileged. Th Labour Party used to but they have sold their soul to the devil.

The SNP have been an effective Government in Scotland and have delivered policies which benefit the less well off in the country, e.g., free prescriptions.

Didn't the poorest sections of our society already get free prescriptions? Now millionaires do whilst the life expectancy in places like Shettleston is scandalously short. Imagine if that money had been targeted towards where it was most needed. The SNP and all the other devolved Governments since devolution began have shamefully down very little to tackle the problems of poverty in Scotland. Hypocrites the lot of them. The SNP really are no better than Labour , don't get me started on their Tory style council tax freeze.
Vote for none of the above. :greengrin

[500miles]

Even at the last general election, I voted Labour.

This time, I'll be voting SNP in the hope that they will kick and scream and make life a nightmare for the liars in Westminster.

[Mibbes Aye]

Didn't the poorest sections of our society already get free prescriptions? Now millionaires do whilst the life expectancy in places like Shettleston is scandalously short. Imagine if that money had been targeted towards where it was most needed. The SNP and all the other devolved Governments since devolution began have shamefully down very little to tackle the problems of poverty in Scotland. Hypocrites the lot of them. The SNP really are no better than Labour , don't get me started on their Tory style council tax freeze.
Vote for none of the above. :greengrin

I agree with your general sentiment but around this bit it feels fair to point out that the first two and a half terms of devolved government coincided with a Westminster government that brought in child tax credit, SureStart, pensioner credit, working tax credit and a national minimum wage.

There was genuine anti-poverty work going on from Westminster.

Anyone with experience of working with people in disadvantaged circumstances knows that it's not one thing, it's overlapping things that contribute to their situation.

On that basis, the first two devolved administrations did great work in generating far more progressive legislation, especially around mental health and incapacity.

[Colr]

How would you vote?

Just for interest.

Is this just for Scotland or can us outliers join in? I take it it should be our preference for government not taking account of local tactical voting issues.

[Colr]

I agree with your general sentiment but around this bit it feels fair to point out that the first two and a half terms of devolved government coincided with a Westminster government that brought in child tax credit, SureStart, pensioner credit, working tax credit and a national minimum wage.

There was genuine anti-poverty work going on from Westminster.

Anyone with experience of working with people in disadvantaged circumstances knows that it's not one thing, it's overlapping things that contribute to their situation.

On that basis, the first two devolved administrations did great work in generating far more progressive legislation, especially around mental health and incapacity.

What do you think needs to be done to alleviate poverty and is that absolute poverty or Brown's favoured relative poverty?

[spike220]

SNP - and all my family until independence is achieved. I will not take my eye off the ball till things are rectified.

[RyeSloan]

I agree with your general sentiment but around this bit it feels fair to point out that the first two and a half terms of devolved government coincided with a Westminster government that brought in child tax credit, SureStart, pensioner credit, working tax credit and a national minimum wage. There was genuine anti-poverty work going on from Westminster. Anyone with experience of working with people in disadvantaged circumstances knows that it's not one thing, it's overlapping things that contribute to their situation. On that basis, the first two devolved administrations did great work in generating far more progressive legislation, especially around mental health and incapacity.

I know you will always put Labour policies first but in general your post is a good reminder that this idea that the UK / Scotland does nothing to help the poor or alleviate hardship that has been stated time and again over many threads is a gross exaggeration.

There are many many methods of wealth transfer in the UK...the most obvious being free at the point of use healthcare and up to secondary school level education (even further in Scotland). Add in the varied and wide ranging benefits, tax credits, state pension etc etc etc and the suggestion that the UK is somehow doing nothing is totally false.

Can more be done? Most probably. Can it be done more effectively? Most probably but let's have the debate without the hyperbole please.

[RyeSloan]

That's a personal choice that the person makes, all tuition should be free regardless of subject. It encourages people to learn and be curious about certain things/subjects which is great! and would hopefully see them earning more in a job they enjoy and are very good at, therefore contributing more tax. I can't see a downside to free tuition and, with respect, the attitude of "why should I pay for it" is really disappointing. Why should anybody pay for anything in that case? Looks like we will neec to agree to disagree on this one :greengrin Edit: I also left school at 15 and went straight into work a couple of months later, so no bias on my part.

The most obvious downside is the cost. Sending huge swathes of your population to further and higher education 'for free' encourages a mis allocation of funds.

Like it or not there isn't a need for every 18 year old to have to study for a degree many of who go on not to use that extended education in a way that either benefits them or the nation that paid for it.

Of course there is a balance to be struck but let's not pretend that this policy hasn't moved many jobs into a degree level requirement that only 20 years ago were deemed good enough for secondary school leavers....where's the benefit of that to wider society?

[Colr]

For Westminster? Given the 3 options for Government are Tories, Tories or a Tory/Tory coalition, I'm struggling to see why it's worth the bother. Hope Scottish MPs get reduced to part time salaries now they're going to be (even more) part time.

With increase subsidiarity, your vote would influence local priorities. It would also work for England in not having Scottish and Welsh MPs forcing through legislation on an English NHS.

[over the line]

The most obvious downside is the cost. Sending huge swathes of your population to further and higher education 'for free' encourages a mis allocation of funds.

Like it or not there isn't a need for every 18 year old to have to study for a degree many of who go on not to use that extended education in a way that either benefits them or the nation that paid for it.

Of course there is a balance to be struck but let's not pretend that this policy hasn't moved many jobs into a degree level requirement that only 20 years ago were deemed good enough for secondary school leavers....where's the benefit of that to wider society?

Totally agree. Kind of the point I made before, only you made it better. :)

[Colr]

The most obvious downside is the cost. Sending huge swathes of your population to further and higher education 'for free' encourages a mis allocation of funds.

Like it or not there isn't a need for every 18 year old to have to study for a degree many of who go on not to use that extended education in a way that either benefits them or the nation that paid for it.

Of course there is a balance to be struck but let's not pretend that this policy hasn't moved many jobs into a degree level requirement that only 20 years ago were deemed good enough for secondary school leavers....where's the benefit of that to wider society?

For the levels that go to uni now, not the previous 5% in my day with full grants, free education is not affordable especially when so many courses are utter ***** (golf course management FFS).

It might have been hoped that having the burden of debt would make people more selective about the courses they chose but I think either some are uninformed/badly advised by school, are glad to be the first to go to uni so grab what they can or maybe don't think too long term.

I think it's true, though, that lots of skills that used to be offered by the workplace now require kids to go to uni and rack up silly debt to achieve. Hairdressing might be one. I'd like to see the burden pushed back onto employers who could be offered serious tax breaks for taking kids on, putting through uni and giving them paid placements ( instead of the exploitative internship system which excludes working class kids). Some accountancy firms do this already but more should.

One result may be that the courses that then are in demand and expand are those which are in demand by employers. If someone wants to study Egyptology, they can pay for it themselves!

[lucky]

Most will, but I, and I suspect a few others won't entertain the idea of voting Labour ever again.

Out of interest, are you a New Labour or pre makover Labour supporter?

Labour Party member have been since early nineties

[lucky]

Here's a question for No people....

are you happy to vote in SNP again to continue to collect your free prescriptions, free uni fees, council tax freeze etc?

No I'm not happy to vote SNP. Council tax freeze has been a disaster for local services and it's a unfair on the poorest in society.
Prescriptions should be free for terminally ill or sufferers of a long term illness but those earning over £50k a year should be paying for them in other instances.
Uni fees is a interesting one, I never attend Uni in my time it's was generally the rich and posh that went and they received a grant. Now Uni's are more inclusive and grants no longer apply but I'm unsure if send 1000s of kids to Uni is sustainable. I'm probably on the side off means testing with regards to fees. As a lot of money has been taken out of FE & HE by the SNP. That way those that can afford to contribute do and at the same time we still have Uni open for all.

[DaveF]

I'm intrigued by a number of posts across various threads, including this one, from unhappy Yes voters

They essentially say the same - "I'll never vote Labour again".

The rationale doesn't add up though.

This country's Labour movement's origins are in the co-operative and socialist movements that arose out of the Industrial Revolution. They pretty much repudiated ideologies like nationalism as they got in the way of recognising the plight of workers, regardless of a line on a map or the colour of the flag on your town hall.

Labour has evolved since those days. The Labour of Clement Attlee that created the NHS is a different beast from the Labour of the Tolpuddle Martyrs or even Keir Hardie.

The Labour of Harold Wilson that protected people who had been exploited by introducing the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Health and Safety at Work etc Act is a different beast from the government of Attlee and Bevan.

The Labour of Blair and Brown that introduced the national minimum wage and tax credits for the vulnerable is different still from Wilson.

The Labour of Miliband hasn't held office yet but it still stopped us going to war in Syria, still drove Leveson and the end of Murdoch's NOTW and still drove the agenda on our electricity and gas prices. That's different again from Blair.

The Tory press has made a big play about Miliband being a return to socialism, an accusation that never could have been levelled against Tony.

The Labour movement is evolutionary - that's the whole point. It's also not nationalist, that's incompatible with its DNA.

So, for all the accusers, answer this. Why would a movement that believes social justice is impeded by boundaries and borders and by difference - why would such a movement do anything else than resist a campaign to create more boundaries, borders and differences?

Nice summary Mibbes and no dispute from me about some of the good things Labour have done.

No mention of the 3 day week, discontent and illegal war costing billions of £££'s and numerous lives? in the interests of fairness and all that.....

[Leith Green]

With Alex Salmond stepping down, I decided to become a member of the SNP. There were certain things I give him respect for, but at the same time there was a lot about him I didnt like. He was quite divisive, now he has gone I would fully expect a lot more people to also join the SNP or at least vote for them in the elections.

I believe that Labour are a complete joke, we will probably see the Tories support grow a little amongst ablot of the Better Together supporters, and I think the SNP will grow massively

[James.]

I joined the SNP last night. I think about 3000 people did as well. They are the only mainstream Scottish party that speak for me now.

Labour are going to get decimated in Scotland if these powers don't go through.

[One Day Soon]

Because every other political party in the UK capable of power don't give a stuff about the poor and underprivileged. Th Labour Party used to but they have sold their soul to the devil.

The SNP have been an effective Government in Scotland and have delivered policies which benefit the less well off in the country, e.g., free prescriptions.


The SNP have not delivered a single redistributive policy in the seven years they have been in power. The reverse is true in fact. They have enriched the rich at the expense of the poor. Council Tax freeze is the most obvious example of that.

[One Day Soon]

Didn't the poorest sections of our society already get free prescriptions? Now millionaires do whilst the life expectancy in places like Shettleston is scandalously short. Imagine if that money had been targeted towards where it was most needed. The SNP and all the other devolved Governments since devolution began have shamefully down very little to tackle the problems of poverty in Scotland. Hypocrites the lot of them. The SNP really are no better than Labour , don't get me started on their Tory style council tax freeze.
Vote for none of the above. :greengrin

One of the best achievements of the Lab/Lib coalition in the first parliament 1999-2003 was the transfer of housing stock en masse from Glasgow City Council to the Glasgow Housing Association with massive financial support from both the Scottish Government and the UK Treasury. The improvement in quality of social housing which followed that has benefited a very large number of people at the lower end of the income scale.

[Canongatehibs]

Snla

[Eyrie]

That's a personal choice that the person makes, all tuition should be free regardless of subject. It encourages people to learn and be curious about certain things/subjects which is great! and would hopefully see them earning more in a job they enjoy and are very good at, therefore contributing more tax. I can't see a downside to free tuition and, with respect, the attitude of "why should I pay for it" is really disappointing. Why should anybody pay for anything in that case?

Looks like we will neec to agree to disagree on this one :greengrin

Edit: I also left school at 15 and went straight into work a couple of months later, so no bias on my part.

That tuition has to be paid for somehow, and if not by the direct beneficiary then it is paid for by everyone in society through taxation and/or reduced spending elsewhere.

I object to paying taxes so that someone can go to university for a law degree that will earn them megabucks without it costing them a penny whilst they then pay the same taxes on their salary that someone who didn't go to university but grafted their way to a decent income has to.

[The_Exile]

That tuition has to be paid for somehow, and if not by the direct beneficiary then it is paid for by everyone in society through taxation and/or reduced spending elsewhere.

I object to paying taxes so that someone can go to university for a law degree that will earn them megabucks without it costing them a penny whilst they then pay the same taxes on their salary that someone who didn't go to university but grafted their way to a decent income has to.

Fair point, but there has to be equal opportunities for all if they wanted to pursue it. What is the alternative? Means Testing?

[Mibbes Aye]

Nice summary Mibbes and no dispute from me about some of the good things Labour have done.

No mention of the 3 day week, discontent and illegal war costing billions of £££'s and numerous lives? in the interests of fairness and all that.....

Don't get me wrong, Labour administrations have made mistakes. My point wasn't about their record as such though, it was the posting that suggested they somehow should have been pro-independence.

The history and ethos of the movement doesn't sit naturally with the idea of separation, that was my point.

(I probably didn't need to quote the policies to make my point but hey-ho I had some time on my hands :greengrin)

[Eyrie]

Fair point, but there has to be equal opportunities for all if they wanted to pursue it. What is the alternative? Means Testing?
Probably, but means tested on the student once they are employed.

If they have a low earning job then they don't have to make any repayments but if it's well paid then they do. Socially essential jobs like healthcare could have an automatic credit to write off part of the loan, which would help nurses and teachers for example.

An alternative would be a graduate tax, but that would have to have two thresholds - one for the lawyers, journalists etc and a higher one for doctors, nurses, teachers etc.

The system of free tuition may have been affordable when 20% of the population went to university but is unaffordable now that 50% do. Yet we'd both agree that expanding access is essential to provide more opportunities for social mobility.

[DaveF]

Don't get me wrong, Labour administrations have made mistakes. My point wasn't about their record as such though, it was the posting that suggested they somehow should have been pro-independence.

The history and ethos of the movement doesn't sit naturally with the idea of separation, that was my point.

(I probably didn't need to quote the policies to make my point but hey-ho I had some time on my hands :greengrin)

Hence my pick up. You know I'm a pain the erchie when it comes to that sort of thing :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Hence my pick up. You know I'm a pain the erchie when it comes to that sort of thing :greengrin

:greengrin

[Beefster]

Snla

Does this mean that you'll be supporting the sending of bullets and threats to Alex Salmond again?

[RyeSloan]

Totally agree. Kind of the point I made before, only you made it better. :)

Well there is a first time for everything I suppose :-)

[heretoday]

Also agree that Labour in Scotland is screwed.

Not if they come to their senses, get some new leaders and come up with a manifesto that doesn't suck up to the bankers and the city.

[Stranraer]

SNP. The SSP don't stand in my area and I think anyone else would run Scotland into the ground. Oh wait...

[Stranraer]

By the way, I hope Labour take a kicking in May 2015, I'm so glad YES won Glasgow. For their own sake I hope a Labour canvasser doesn't come to my door.

[lucky]

By the way, I hope Labour take a kicking in May 2015, I'm so glad YES won Glasgow. For their own sake I hope a Labour canvasser doesn't come to my door.

Why? Violence in politics always ends well doesn't it. 61% of Edinburgh rejected independence. You need to accept the result.

[lord bunberry]

If Scotland wants to keep the Tories out of Westminster, isn't voting Labour the only realistic option?

If the snp win lots of seats in the next elections then they may hold the balance of power in any coalition deal.

[BroxburnHibee]

If the snp win lots of seats in the next elections then they may hold the balance of power in any coalition deal.

I suspect that this might be Salmond's next tactic.

45% of the electorate are now looking for something to focus on - not all of them by any stretch will want to vote SNP but may see them as a means to an end.

[lord bunberry]

I suspect that this might be Salmond's next tactic.

45% of the electorate are now looking for something to focus on - not all of them by any stretch will want to vote SNP but may see them as a means to an end.

I would imagine that one of the conditions of a coalition deal would be another referendum

[degenerated]

Why? Violence in politics always ends well doesn't it. 61% of Edinburgh rejected independence. You need to accept the result.
He doesn't mention violence, you introduced that notion. I would give them a piece of my mind if they came to my door too.
Sold their souls for power in 97, led us into illegal occupation of iraq, racked up billions in debt, stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories over the referendum and now it appears they lied over more devolution. Labour my @rse, Keir Hardie would be ashamed of what Labour have become, a party of self serving tossers like Jim Murphy.

Thatchers biggest achievement was turning Labour into a clone of the Tories.

I hope they get wiped off the political map in Scotland at the GE.

[Leith Green]

I would imagine that one of the conditions of a coalition deal would be another referendum

A coalition in westminster or Holyrood?

[degenerated]

A coalition in westminster or Holyrood?
Would need to be Westminster.

[lucky]

He doesn't mention violence, you introduced that notion. I would give them a piece of my mind if they came to my door too.
Sold their souls for power in 97, led us into illegal occupation of iraq, racked up billions in debt, stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories over the referendum and now it appears they lied over more devolution. Labour my @rse, Keir Hardie would be ashamed of what Labour have become, a party of self serving tossers like Jim Murphy.

Thatchers biggest achievement was turning Labour into a clone of the Tories.

I hope they get wiped off the political map in Scotland at the GE.

He clearly implies it. Supporters of independence need to accept the democratic will of the people of Scotland. The snp have said that there will not be another referendum for a generation

[Leith Green]

He clearly implies it. Supporters of independence need to accept the democratic will of the people of Scotland. The snp have said that there will not be another referendum for a generation

Alex Salmond said it ;)

[lord bunberry]

A coalition in westminster or Holyrood?
Westminster

[lord bunberry]

He clearly implies it. Supporters of independence need to accept the democratic will of the people of Scotland. The snp have said that there will not be another referendum for a generation
It's not up to the SNP whether there's another referendum. If more powers aren't delivered and enough people feel aggrieved enough then we could force another referendum.

[Elephant Stone]

I hope Labour get absolutely decimated in Scotland. And if I get to personally help boot Alastair Darling from my constituency..

13510

[RyeSloan]

It's not up to the SNP whether there's another referendum. If more powers aren't delivered and enough people feel aggrieved enough then we could force another referendum.

Ahh the Quebec style neverendum....

Seriously I know a lot of Yes voters are feeling aggrieved (to put it mildly) but on the flip side many others are relieved the long drawn out run up to the vote is over....I doubt there really is a national collective wanting a repeat anytime soon.

We asked the nation to decide...a huge portion took part and made their decision. Why on earth would there be any justifiable grounds to revisit the question again any time soon beyond the fact you didn't like the answer?

[One Day Soon]

Ahh the Quebec style neverendum....

Seriously I know a lot of Yes voters are feeling aggrieved (to put it mildly) but on the flip side many others are relieved the long drawn out run up to the vote is over....I doubt there really is a national collective wanting a repeat anytime soon.

We asked the nation to decide...a huge portion took part and made their decision. Why on earth would there be any justifiable grounds to revisit the question again any time soon beyond the fact you didn't like the answer?


Because they massively emotionally invested in something that Eck and a bunch of others persuaded them would just happen. A bit like his answer on the pound - we want it so it will just happen. Now that it hasn't they are hurting - badly. Which is understandable.

However this war is over. If you want to be Japanese soldiers on uncharted islands then fine. Better to focus on what is immediately achievable I'd suggest.

[degenerated]

Ahh the Quebec style neverendum....

Seriously I know a lot of Yes voters are feeling aggrieved (to put it mildly) but on the flip side many others are relieved the long drawn out run up to the vote is over....I doubt there really is a national collective wanting a repeat anytime soon.

We asked the nation to decide...a huge portion took part and made their decision. Why on earth would there be any justifiable grounds to revisit the question again any time soon beyond the fact you didn't like the answer?
In the event of a Euro exit in the UK then I think it only fair that it is revisited. If there's no Euro exit then unless there is a clear democratic mandate for it to be discussed then it's been put to bed for a generation.

[One Day Soon]

In the event of a Euro exit in the UK then I think it only fair that it is revisited. If there's no Euro exit then unless there is a clear democratic mandate for it to be discussed then it's been put to bed for a generation.


I do think that a Euro exit opens up all sorts of questions. But we should all be wanting that not to happen.

Here's a thought, a NO campiagn alliance across Labour, Lib-Dems and the SNP against the exit from Europe if there's a referendum on it. What's SSP and Green policy on Europe? Aren't the SSP against it? Would be hilarious if they ended upon the same side as (some) Tories in wanting out.

[Stranraer]

Why? Violence in politics always ends well doesn't it. 61% of Edinburgh rejected independence. You need to accept the result.

I didn't mean a literal kicking. I mean I hope Labour suffer for the way they ran this campaign the disgusting bunch of charlatans that they are.

I accept the result and have shook hands with 2 Lib Dem No campaigners and my Tory MSP wishing them well.

[Stranraer]

I hope Labour get absolutely decimated in Scotland. And if I get to personally help boot Alastair Darling from my constituency..

13510

:top markssame here mate, I have the only Tory MP representing me though!

[One Day Soon]

I didn't mean a literal kicking. I mean I hope Labour suffer for the way they ran this campaign the disgusting bunch of charlatans that they are.

I accept the result and have shook hands with 2 Lib Dem No campaigners and my Tory MSP wishing them well.


You think Labour ran this campaign?

[One Day Soon]

:top markssame here mate, I have the only Tory MP representing me though!


Given your politics you must feel like an endangered species where you live.

[snooky]

The thing is, I'm not convinced an independent Scotland would be as much towards the left as what a lot of people think. There seems to be a body of thought that we'd automatically be some sort of utopia.

I agree.
I think if Independence ever comes, Scotland would level out in the middle/left.
The SNP would/should? fragment.
I'd hope to see a New Scottish Labour Party (NSLP) and also a challenging mid/right Conservative party (which, IMO, would be welcome and essential).
Other parties such as the Greens, SSP, etc. would be there in the mix.
The Libs, of course, can go whore themselves to whoever is in power in rUK at the time.

[snooky]

I'm intrigued by a number of posts across various threads, including this one, from unhappy Yes voters

They essentially say the same - "I'll never vote Labour again".

The rationale doesn't add up though.

This country's Labour movement's origins are in the co-operative and socialist movements that arose out of the Industrial Revolution. They pretty much repudiated ideologies like nationalism as they got in the way of recognising the plight of workers, regardless of a line on a map or the colour of the flag on your town hall.

Labour has evolved since those days. The Labour of Clement Attlee that created the NHS is a different beast from the Labour of the Tolpuddle Martyrs or even Keir Hardie.

The Labour of Harold Wilson that protected people who had been exploited by introducing the Equal Pay Act, the Race Relations Act and the Health and Safety at Work etc Act is a different beast from the government of Attlee and Bevan.

The Labour of Blair and Brown that introduced the national minimum wage and tax credits for the vulnerable is different still from Wilson.

The Labour of Miliband hasn't held office yet but it still stopped us going to war in Syria, still drove Leveson and the end of Murdoch's NOTW and still drove the agenda on our electricity and gas prices. That's different again from Blair.

The Tory press has made a big play about Miliband being a return to socialism, an accusation that never could have been levelled against Tony.

The Labour movement is evolutionary - that's the whole point. It's also not nationalist, that's incompatible with its DNA.

So, for all the accusers, answer this. Why would a movement that believes social justice is impeded by boundaries and borders and by difference - why would such a movement do anything else than resist a campaign to create more boundaries, borders and differences?

Good post, MA, seriously.

Though there's something inside me saying you should be showing this to Labour Party leaders.

[NAE NOOKIE]

SNP for me ... always has been, always will be until it has no reason to exist. I'm lead to believe that Nicola Sturgeon leans more to the left than Alex Salmond and the SNP is likely to head that way ( which suits me fine ) making it even more of an alternative to Labour.

There are a few things that bug me which probably fly in the face of my left wing views. Its a fact that the older you get the more right wing you get I suppose.

I get totally the poster who said it was unfair that he has to pay for his HGV license himself when someone else enhances their job prospects with a free education costing thousands ..... is Mr HGV mans contribution to society not just as valuable as someone who goes to university for 3 years so they can tell you the hidden meaning behind some 300 year old painting? I am not decrying culture its value is undeniable, but so is making sure my local Wetherspoons doesn't run out of lager.

I also think that the punishment for hard drug dealing should be unbelievably harsh in a 3 strikes and your out rule ... once, normal sentence, twice, extra 3rd added, thrice the skies the limit.

The worst thing that this country suffers from was Thatcher's right to buy scheme. Once all the nice houses in the good areas had gone all that was left was the dross for those with no prospect of buying ... that's as good a way to create ghettos as I can think of. Even in a small place like Galashiels the affects can be seen ..... when surrounded by poverty some are motivated to get out, the majority begin to look on it as a way of life and just accept it.

[Disco Dave]

Read through the first few pages and skipped the rest so sorry if my comment seems out of turn. Been a labour voter all my days, NEVER again. SNP for me now.

[Stranraer]

He clearly implies it. Supporters of independence need to accept the democratic will of the people of Scotland. The snp have said that there will not be another referendum for a generation

A kicking... meaning I hope you lose seats - I don't "hit" any campaigner of a party so please quit insulting me okay?

And let me repeat this to you again and see if you take it in:

I ACCEPT THE DEMOCRATIC CHOICE OF THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND WHO VOTED NO.

​

[Stranraer]

He doesn't mention violence, you introduced that notion. I would give them a piece of my mind if they came to my door too.
Sold their souls for power in 97, led us into illegal occupation of iraq, racked up billions in debt, stood shoulder to shoulder with the Tories over the referendum and now it appears they lied over more devolution. Labour my @rse, Keir Hardie would be ashamed of what Labour have become, a party of self serving tossers like Jim Murphy.

Thatchers biggest achievement was turning Labour into a clone of the Tories.

I hope they get wiped off the political map in Scotland at the GE.

Thank you. By a kicking I meant I hope Labour perform badly in Scotland in May 2015. I know a lot more about violence in politics than him I can assure you, living in the north of Ireland will do that to you.

He is insulting me.

[The Harp Awakes]

I joined the SNP last night. I think about 3000 people did as well. They are the only mainstream Scottish party that speak for me now.

Labour are going to get decimated in Scotland if these powers don't go through.

Apparently the figure is now 5000 new SNP members since Friday..

I've been a member of the SNP for a long time and in recent years their membership has increased steadily. A lot of folk thought the referendum defeat would put the SNP back in their box for a while, but I expect the opposite to occur, especially under Sturgeon's leadership.

It could be an interesting few years ahead in Scottish politics particularly if the Tories renege on the pledge for more powers and/or there is a UK vote to leave the EU. Another independence referendum could be a lot sooner than many think.

[snooky]

Apparently the figure is now 5000 new SNP members since Friday..

I've been a member of the SNP for a long time and in recent years their membership has increased steadily. A lot of folk thought the referendum defeat would put the SNP back in their box for a while, but I expect the opposite to occur, especially under Sturgeon's leadership.

It could be an interesting few years ahead in Scottish politics particularly if the Tories renege on the pledge for more powers and/or there is a UK vote to leave the EU. Another independence referendum could be a lot sooner than many think.


I actually wouldn't be unhappy if they renege (BTW, the 'if' is superfluous).

"A week is a long time in politics" Harold Wilson 1964
"An hour is a long time in politics" Shameron-Milibad-Clugg 2014

[Sylar]

Apparently the figure is now 5000 new SNP members since Friday..

I've been a member of the SNP for a long time and in recent years their membership has increased steadily. A lot of folk thought the referendum defeat would put the SNP back in their box for a while, but I expect the opposite to occur, especially under Sturgeon's leadership.

It could be an interesting few years ahead in Scottish politics particularly if the Tories renege on the pledge for more powers and/or there is a UK vote to leave the EU. Another independence referendum could be a lot sooner than many think.

I agree wholeheartedly - if Westminster renege on their promise, a Tory government is re-elected or (perish the thought) a UKIP government elected and the UK votes to remove itself from Europe, the appetite for another referendum will become insatiable.

My worry would be (particularly given Jack Straw's comments) that the UK powers will gradually seek t nullify any future attempt to have a sanctioned referendum.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I agree wholeheartedly - if Westminster renege on their promise, a Tory government is re-elected or (perish the thought) a UKIP government elected and the UK votes to remove itself from Europe, the appetite for another referendum will become insatiable.

My worry would be (particularly given Jack Straw's comments) that the UK powers will gradually seek t nullify any future attempt to have a sanctioned referendum.

There was a link to this on Wings over Scotland this morning, though it only quoted the first two paragraphs. In view of that my opinion here is based on a presumption that he didn't dilute what he appears to be saying in those two paragraphs further on.

If I understand it correctly what he is saying is that Scotland would never be allowed to leave the union unless a vote in the house of commons supported it. That there will never again be access to a referendum and that the politics of Westminster will take precedence over the right of the people of Scotland to decide this matter for themselves. In the referendum just past 45% of Scottish people who voted were, for whatever reason, at odds with all three major UK political parties and voted for independence.

In view of the fact that the political make up of the Westminster parliament means that there would never be any chance of a vote to break up the union being carried, even if a majority of Scotland's people wanted independence, there is only one scenario I could envisage, and here it is:

Nicola Sturgeon leader of the political wing of the SNP today refused to condemn the bombing of the London underground which brought the city to a standstill yesterday, and denied she had any prior knowledge of the action carried out by the movements military wing.

In other news Jock McJockland leader of the breakaway 'Real SNP' was shot by security forces after a 10 hour siege of a house in Drumnadrochit.

In other words if Jack Straw gets his way ......... welcome to 1970s Northern Ireland.

[One Day Soon]

[/B]
I actually wouldn't be unhappy if they renege (BTW, the 'if' is superfluous).

"A week is a long time in politics" Harold Wilson 1964
"An hour is a long time in politics" Shameron-Milibad-Clugg 2014


That will be the wet dream for the SNP. Unfortunately for all of you hoping for that it isn't going to happen.

It is going to be messy and fractious but the extra powers will come.

[One Day Soon]

There was a link to this on Wings over Scotland this morning, though it only quoted the first two paragraphs. In view of that my opinion here is based on a presumption that he didn't dilute what he appears to be saying in those two paragraphs further on.

If I understand it correctly what he is saying is that Scotland would never be allowed to leave the union unless a vote in the house of commons supported it. That there will never again be access to a referendum and that the politics of Westminster will take precedence over the right of the people of Scotland to decide this matter for themselves. In the referendum just past 45% of Scottish people who voted were, for whatever reason, at odds with all three major UK political parties and voted for independence.

In view of the fact that the political make up of the Westminster parliament means that there would never be any chance of a vote to break up the union being carried, even if a majority of Scotland's people wanted independence, there is only one scenario I could envisage, and here it is:

Nicola Sturgeon leader of the political wing of the SNP today refused to condemn the bombing of the London underground which brought the city to a standstill yesterday, and denied she had any prior knowledge of the action carried out by the movements military wing.

In other news Jock McJockland leader of the breakaway 'Real SNP' was shot by security forces after a 10 hour siege of a house in Drumnadrochit.

In other words if Jack Straw gets his way ......... welcome to 1970s Northern Ireland.


Wings over Scotland - Am I right in thinking that is the site run by the guy who said he watched 9/11 happen live on television and laughed all day?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Wings over Scotland - Am I right in thinking that is the site run by the guy who said he watched 9/11 happen live on television and laughed all day?

Nae idea mate ......... I presume the Times article wasn't made up :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Nae idea mate ......... I presume the Times article wasn't made up :greengrin

Can anyone confirm or otherwise?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Can anyone confirm or otherwise?

Yes its in their on line version .. though you have to subscribe to get all of it.

[Sylar]

Can anyone confirm or otherwise?

It's behind a pay-wall but here's a link to the column:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4212654.ece

[One Day Soon]

It's behind a pay-wall but here's a link to the column:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4212654.ece


I meant can anyone confirm about Wings over Scotland and the guy's view on 9/11?

I avoid contributing to Murdoch any way I can, so no pay-wall cash from me I'm afraid.

[Mibbes Aye]

I meant can anyone confirm about Wings over Scotland and the guy's view on 9/11?

I avoid contributing to Murdoch any way I can, so no pay-wall cash from me I'm afraid.

I'd heard the 9/11 story but haven't actually seen it with my own eyes.

I did read a lengthy blog by him (and linked it on here a while back) where he blamed Liverpool fans for Hillsborough and then got into an argument on Twitter with the sister of one of the dead and called Liverpool fans the c-word to her.

If I was a Yes supporter I wouldn't post anything of his in support of my arguments on that basis. I don't think he deserves the oxygen of publicity and there are many other arguments Yes supporters can draw on.

[Sylar]

I meant can anyone confirm about Wings over Scotland and the guy's view on 9/11?

I avoid contributing to Murdoch any way I can, so no pay-wall cash from me I'm afraid.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting you pay to read it ODS - was merely pointing out that it was based on a genuine article (as that was what I thought you initially meant).

He discussed the 9/11 'controversy' in a blog post on the site:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/hello-daily-mail-readers/

[Sylar]

I'd just like to stress that although this was discussed on Wings Over Scotland, I read it in the actual newspaper on Friday and it was that I was referring to - not WoS.

[degenerated]

I meant can anyone confirm about Wings over Scotland and the guy's view on 9/11?

I avoid contributing to Murdoch any way I can, so no pay-wall cash from me I'm afraid.
It was from some gaming forum and was a response to comments from another user he obviously has previous with. I did a search and what was quoted in the papers was there but I think taken out of context, it seemed more an attempt a some sort of ott beavis and buthead type humour. Funny it most certainly wasn't but it was taken out of context by the telegraph. That said the boys a fud.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?196192-Retro-Gamer-magazine-s-terrible-Metal-Slug-feature-reviewed!/page23

[Betty Boop]

I'd heard the 9/11 story but haven't actually seen it with my own eyes.

I did read a lengthy blog by him (and linked it on here a while back) where he blamed Liverpool fans for Hillsborough and then got into an argument on Twitter with the sister of one of the dead and called Liverpool fans the c-word to her.

If I was a Yes supporter I wouldn't post anything of his in support of my arguments on that basis. I don't think he deserves the oxygen of publicity and there are many other arguments Yes supporters can draw on.


Is he the charming Rev ? Stuart Campbell who resides in Bath ?

[Beefster]

Is he the charming Rev ? Stuart Campbell who resides in Bath ?

Campbell was relatively well-known in the 16-bit computer age for being a games journalist and part of the team that made pretty good games. He's always been a mentalist and a dick. He's definitely not a reverend either!

He's lived in and around Bath for over two decades AFAIK, at least since he worked for Future Publishing.

[Leith Green]

SNP have had 10000 new members join the party since Friday, i would imagine there will be quite a few more in the coming days...

[Pretty Boy]

SNP have had 10000 new members join the party since Friday, i would imagine there will be quite a few more in the coming days...

Greens over 2000 and SSP just under 1000 as well now. That's 13000 new members to political parties in under 3 days. That's unprecedented. It would be interesting to see if any of the 'big 3' have gained any members on the back of their victory.

This isn't going to go away if it's managed right.

[degenerated]

Greens over 2000 and SSP just under 1000 as well now. That's 13000 new members to political parties in under 3 days. That's unprecedented. It would be interesting to see if any of the 'big 3' have gained any members on the back of their victory.

This isn't going to go away if it's managed right.
I reckon Labour are more likely to have lost members rather than gain any.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Got to say when I posted the bit about Jack Straw I was kind of hoping to get folks opinion on his IMO daft idea, rather than a discussion on the merits, or otherwise, of Stuart Campbell.

[Stranraer]

I reckon Labour are more likely to have lost members rather than gain any.

I hope so - they should be ashamed of themselves. A relative of mine was once a party member (think we're going back to when Michael Foot was in charge) and today he sent Scottish HQ an e-mail of disgust at the way they have been conducting themselves.

Nothing would please me more than to see Glasgow Labour MP's lose seats in May 2015. They certainly won't win here in the only Conservative constituency.

[The Harp Awakes]

I hope so - they should be ashamed of themselves. A relative of mine was once a party member (think we're going back to when Michael Foot was in charge) and today he sent Scottish HQ an e-mail of disgust at the way they have been conducting themselves.

Nothing would please me more than to see Glasgow Labour MP's lose seats in May 2015. They certainly won't win here in the only Conservative constituency.

The Labour Party will be depending on Scottish votes at next years General Election to have any chance, but I think they're in for a kicking. They deserve everything they get. Listening to Ian Murray MP defending Cameron's coercion of big business to get involved in the referendum campaign was sickening.

[bawheid]

The Labour Party will be depending on Scottish votes at next years General Election to have any chance, but I think they're in for a kicking. They deserve everything they get. Listening to Ian Murray MP defending Cameron's coercion of big business to get involved in the referendum campaign was sickening.

I've as much chance of being elected as Ian Murray next year. He's a goner.

[Pretty Boy]

I've as much chance of being elected as Ian Murray next year. He's a goner.

Yep.

A majority of less than 400 at the last election. Unless there is a massive SNP implosion in the next few months he's finished.

[green glory]

Yep. A majority of less than 400 at the last election. Unless there is a massive SNP implosion in the next few months he's finished.

11,000 (eleven thousand) people have joined the SNP so unlikely.

[green glory]

11,000 (eleven thousand) people have joined the SNP so unlikely.

Oops I meant to say, this weekend alone. :-)

[Stranraer]

Only 8 people would vote Conservative?

"We don't vote Conservative because we never have everyone lies everyone lies"

Listening to Glamorous Glue, couldn't resist.