Scotland says 'No'/Salmond stands down (Merged)

[timewilltell]

Looks like a 'NO' then...,.😟

[Baader]

Huge opportunity missed. Very sad.

But The People have spoken! Ukip, Dave, Boris here we come!

[hibsbollah]

Official now. 55-45 currently. Which is pretty much what I thought would happen.

[Judas Iscariot]

http://rs1278.pbsrc.com/albums/y507/stevenfenton10/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps436eab2f.jpg~320x480

[Jones28]

Scotland, the country that held its sovereignty in its hands...and said no thanks.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Subservience at its best/worst?

[Pretty Boy]

For whatever reason people made this decision.

It's hard to take but with a democracy you don't always (ever?) get what you want. I don't pretend to understand why a majority voted No but they did and we have to get on with it.

[micka_weer]

Gutted!

[degenerated]

For whatever reason people made this decision.

It's hard to take but with a democracy you don't always (ever?) get what you want. I don't pretend to understand why a majority voted No but they did and we have to get on with it.
The shameless scaremongering clearly worked on those who see us incapable of running a country in a more fitting manner than the self serving, self interested Westminster mps and unelected lords.
I hope those that democratically chose this route are not as disappointed as I currently am when we discover what the impacts of TTIP are on our health service, what impacts the increased austerity has on education and childcare provision, that we see fit to invest billions on unneeded nuclear weapons whilst we witness an increased reliance on food banks and hit those with the least to give the hardest.

Saor Alba

[snooky]

The shameless scaremongering clearly worked on those who see us incapable of running a country in a more fitting manner than the self serving, self interested Westminster mps and unelected lords.
I hope those that democratically chose this route are not as disappointed as I currently am when we discover what the impacts of TTIP are on our health service, what impacts the increased austerity has on education and childcare provision, that we see fit to invest billions on unneeded nuclear weapons whilst we witness an increased reliance on food banks and hit those with the least to give the hardest.

Saor Alba

:agree: I'll go along with that.

BTW, Scotland didn't say 'No'. Only 55% of it did.

Time to move on, though.

[theonlywayisup]

http://rs1278.pbsrc.com/albums/y507/stevenfenton10/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps436eab2f.jpg~320x480

Or was not prepared to take a "gut-feel" gamble with your future. Time will tell whether that was the right decision or not.

Proud to be Scottish. Proud to be British.

[Judas Iscariot]

Or was not prepared to take a "gut-feel" gamble with your future. Time will tell whether that was the right decision or not.

Proud to be Scottish. Proud to be British.

The last however many years has been time enough for me to know that staying within this corrupt and deplorable union was too much of a gamble

[IndieHibby]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media.

Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision.

It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.

[johnbc70]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media.

Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision.

It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.
The way some are blaming the media you think we lived in North Korea.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The result is like the workhouse scene in Oliver Twist.

Scotland (Oliver) approaching (Mr Bumble) Westminster bowl in hand "Please sir I want some more".

Unfortunately qualified with the statement "Dinnae give me it all though, I dinnae want more on my plate than I can handle"!

Anyway, I'm away to Newcastle to drown my sorrows.

[Gus]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media.

Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision.

It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.

This

[#FromTheCapital]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media.

Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision.

It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.

:agree: Precisely. Some folk really giving a bad account of themselves.

[Speedy]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media.

Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision.

It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.


Agreed.

The no campaign was very poor and I'd have liked them to focus on the positives of the union.

However, they've made promises and if they don't keep them then well be back for another referendum soon enough.

[RyeSloan]

I disagree with the consensus that people voted No due to being afraid or being influenced by the media. Plenty of people voted No because they thought that was the best decision. It's churlish to criticise the outcome of a vote, just because it didn't your way. Particularly seeing the turnout was so high.

Top post!

Sadly the reaction of some people to the majority vote of Scotland beggars belief...the very same people who were supporting Yes because it would bring greater democracy to Scotland.

[spike220]

Scotland the country that voted democratically against democracy - Unbelievable!!!

[Gus]

Top post!

Sadly the reaction of some people to the majority vote of Scotland beggars belief...the very same people who were supporting Yes because it would bring greater democracy to Scotland.

:agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree: I'll go along with that.

BTW, Scotland didn't say 'No'. Only 55% of it did.

Time to move on, though.

only 46.7% voted no, the rest voted yes, spoiled their papers or didn't vote.

[hibs0666]

only 46.7% voted no, the rest voted yes, spoiled their papers or didn't vote.

No point in rewriting the rules now. It's done and its time to move on.

[Moulin Yarns]

No point in rewriting the rules now. It's done and its time to move on.

I'm not rewriting the rules. Look at every election, and you find that the majority of the electorate "don't get what they vote for" as someone has said repeatedly on another thread.

I hope that the referendum has the effect of changing politics in the UK (or just Scotland) for the better and the engagement level remains high as that will help to push change. If engagement drops back down to the levels of, say 4 years ago, then we are back to the same old.

[lord bunberry]

If I'm being honest I feel, bitter, angry, let down and have a lot of resentment for people who voted no. I know I will calm down in the next few days but right now I can't even put the TV on as I can't watch another smug bt campaigner being interviewed. I feel we've missed an opportunity and as a life long SNP voter I feel I will never see independence in my lifetime.

[IndieHibby]

If I'm being honest I feel, bitter, angry, let down and have a lot of resentment for people who voted no. I know I will calm down in the next few days but right now I can't even put the TV on as I can't watch another smug bt campaigner being interviewed. I feel we've missed an opportunity and as a life long SNP voter I feel I will never see independence in my lifetime.

Why not just endeavour to convince the majority of us that were wrong?

[MB62]

IN MEMORIUM - SCOTLAND, DIED 18th SEPTEMBER 2014

Today I woke up to being Scottish no more after 55% of the people up here decided they wanted to be British and NOT Scottish. One of the first things I did was to take down my framed Declaration of Arbroath and throw it in the bucket, it means NOTHING now thanks to the 55%. From this day onwards, the country formerly known as Scotland, becomes Northern Britain. I will now never again vote in what is a UK general election because my vote is meaningless and we will again have to accept what south England decides.
Maybe time will help heal things but right now, I am angry and ashamed to have previously called myself Scottish.

[lord bunberry]

Why not just endeavour to convince the majority of us that were wrong?

What difference will that make?

[Swedish hibee]

Very sad for Scotland.

Tories & UKIP at next election.. a reality? :worried:

[hibsbollah]

If I'm being honest I feel, bitter, angry, let down and have a lot of resentment for people who voted no. I know I will calm down in the next few days but right now I can't even put the TV on as I can't watch another smug bt campaigner being interviewed. I feel we've missed an opportunity and as a life long SNP voter I feel I will never see independence in my lifetime.

Its not healthy to 'resent' over 50% of your fellow Scots. (Or if so perhaps its not a country worth being patriotic about anyway?) People see things differently.

[hibsbollah]

The shameless scaremongering clearly worked

I don't think so. The polls were consistently anti independence before during and at the end of the campaign. We lost because most Scots seem to prefer the union. Strange but true.

[lord bunberry]

Its not healthy to 'resent' over 50% of your fellow Scots. (Or if so perhaps its not a country worth being patriotic about anyway?) People see things differently.

I know that and I will calm down and look at things more rationally over the next few days, but that's how I feel right now.

[Peevemor]

My main reason for backing Yes was that I wanted people's votes to really count for something . For this reason I have no real problem with the No voters - that's democracy. However I hope the 600k+ who didn't vote are having a good look at themselves today, though I doubt that'll be the case for many of them.

[The Harp Awakes]

The way some are blaming the media you think we lived in North Korea.

Probably a reflection that the BBC had a fairly good reputation prior to this campaign for being neutral and reporting World issues with a straight bat. At least in most people's eyes.

If you think that the BBC were neutral in their coverage of the campaign, you either don't want to believe it or you have had your head in the sand for the last 2 years.

[Lost_Mackem]

IN MEMORIUM - SCOTLAND, DIED 18th SEPTEMBER 2014

Today I woke up to being Scottish no more after 55% of the people up here decided they wanted to be British and NOT Scottish. One of the first things I did was to take down my framed Declaration of Arbroath and throw it in the bucket, it means NOTHING now thanks to the 55%. From this day onwards, the country formerly known as Scotland, becomes Northern Britain. I will now never again vote in what is a UK general election because my vote is meaningless and we will again have to accept what south England decides.
Maybe time will help heal things but right now, I am angry and ashamed to have previously called myself Scottish.

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

[overdrive]

I can only hope this division amongst Scots won't continue long. I feared this would happen in the event of a close 'No' vote (it ended up not even being as close as I thought in the last couple of weeks). There's numpties (from both sides) on my Facebook 'de-friending' folk based on what they voted.

I honestly don't understand why a lot of 'Yes' folks believe an independent Scotland would be run as some sort of Gandhi-like utopia. We will be run by politicians who are slightly to the left or slightly to the right of centre, occasionally in coalition with somebody a little bit more to the left or right (Greens, UKIP) no matter if we are independent or part of the UK.

I'm genuinely excited at the prospect of the UK being politically reformed. I think (hope) this could be the jolt we need towards federalism, a significantly scaled back Westminster government, an elected (or scrapped) upper chamber, and hopefully in time proportional representation, a written constitution giving specific powers to Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English legislatures (whether that be England as a whole or its regions) and dare I say it - an elected Head of State.

We can have the best of both worlds - power to decide our own policies whilst benefiting from the scale of the union.

I realise, however, I'm in a minority on this one on here.

[overdrive]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

I agree with the first part of your post, and to certain extent your second paragraph (I don't think that is anywhere near the main reason why folk would be 'Yes' voters. However, I detest that word in bold when used in a context like that and it is things like that which probably get a lot of Scots' backs up.

I also highly doubt it will be a UKIP landslide unless the English population go with the line "we hate the Scottish (and Europe), let's punish them".

[Gatecrasher]

I can only hope this division amongst Scots won't continue long. I feared this would happen in the event of a close 'No' vote (it ended up not even being as close as I thought in the last couple of weeks). There's numpties (from both sides) on my Facebook 'de-friending' folk based on what they voted.

I honestly don't understand why a lot of 'Yes' folks believe an independent Scotland would be run as some sort of Gandhi-like utopia. We will be run by politicians who are slightly to the left or slightly to the right of centre, occasionally in coalition with somebody a little bit more to the left or right (Greens, UKIP) no matter if we are independent or part of the UK.

I'm genuinely excited at the prospect of the UK being politically reformed. I think (hope) this could be the jolt we need towards federalism, a significantly scaled back Westminster government, an elected (or scrapped) upper chamber, and hopefully in time proportional representation, a written constitution giving specific powers to Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English legislatures (whether that be England as a whole or its regions) and dare I say it - an elected Head of State.

We can have the best of both worlds - power to decide our own policies whilst benefiting from the scale of the union.

I realise, however, I'm in a minority on this one on here.

I agree with you, in particular the part in bold. Even with the No vote it looks like the political landscape of the United Kingdom is going to change quite a lot. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I feel fine with it - which surprises myself as someone who has wanted Scotland to be a proper country for my whole life.

I am happy because it has been settled, without a shadow of a doubt, without conspiracy or recrimination, fairly and democratically. And bizarrely, i'm also pleased it was big enough winning margin not to be agonisingly close (I remember thinking the same thing after Hearts cup final - getting pumped was better than losing 2-1 to a scrappy, flukey goal in injury time or something). Most people prefer Scotland not being a country, but being a semi autonomous region of a much bigger country. I don't agree but I respect it.

And actually, I think given there is a clear and very strong majority for devo-max/federalism etc, then ending up with a fairly radically reformed UK with effectively devo-max for Scotland is probably the best place as a compromise to suit most Scots, so I can make my peace with it.

Is there a strong case that we should have a GB football and rugby teams? I kinda feel that there is.

So what do people feel the reasons were?

I increasingly think that Yes targeting previous non-voters in west-central Scotland, in very deprived areas was an admission that they had lost the economic arguments and so were putting all of their eggs in that basket. I do believe the negative campaign from No worked well (that's not a criticism by the way, I don't see what's wrong with negative campaigning if it works), the business interventions were a big blow also.

Yes were always a bit sanctimonious I think, making out that positivity was the be all and end all. winning was the aim, and it was always my view that Yes never ever really pointed out the flaws with Union well enough, or early enough. They never made the case as to why lots of people (most of whom aren't unemployed in Easterhouse) should risk good standards of living, jobs, savings etc and take a risk on an, at best, economically un proven proposition. I think they recognised this late on, and tried to start going negative with the NHS stuff (which was pure nonsense, but was effective), but it was too late and they had left too many gaping holes in their economic plan.

All IMO, and all spoken as a Yes voter.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I can only hope this division amongst Scots won't continue long. I feared this would happen in the event of a close 'No' vote (it ended up not even being as close as I thought in the last couple of weeks). There's numpties (from both sides) on my Facebook 'de-friending' folk based on what they voted.

I honestly don't understand why a lot of 'Yes' folks believe an independent Scotland would be run as some sort of Gandhi-like utopia. We will be run by politicians who are slightly to the left or slightly to the right of centre, occasionally in coalition with somebody a little bit more to the left or right (Greens, UKIP) no matter if we are independent or part of the UK.

I'm genuinely excited at the prospect of the UK being politically reformed. I think (hope) this could be the jolt we need towards federalism, a significantly scaled back Westminster government, an elected (or scrapped) upper chamber, and hopefully in time proportional representation, a written constitution giving specific powers to Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English legislatures (whether that be England as a whole or its regions) and dare I say it - an elected Head of State.

We can have the best of both worlds - power to decide our own policies whilst benefiting from the scale of the union.

I realise, however, I'm in a minority on this one on here.


As I said in my other post, if this is delivered as promised, then I think it is the best compromise option. And as someone who sees devolution as a process, im happy its aother step towards independence, and one the vast majority are happy to take.

[hibs0666]

IN MEMORIUM - SCOTLAND, DIED 18th SEPTEMBER 2014

Today I woke up to being Scottish no more after 55% of the people up here decided they wanted to be British and NOT Scottish. One of the first things I did was to take down my framed Declaration of Arbroath and throw it in the bucket, it means NOTHING now thanks to the 55%. From this day onwards, the country formerly known as Scotland, becomes Northern Britain. I will now never again vote in what is a UK general election because my vote is meaningless and we will again have to accept what south England decides.
Maybe time will help heal things but right now, I am angry and ashamed to have previously called myself Scottish.

There is no point in you wallowing in self-pity just because 55% of people disagreed with you and decided that they are Scottish AND British. Perspective is required - we live in exactly the same country with exactly the same family, friends and neighbours as we did yesterday.

[Judas Iscariot]

I agree with you, in particular the part in bold. Even with the No vote it looks like the political landscape of the United Kingdom is going to change quite a lot. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Haha.. Like any change will happen

[overdrive]

As I said in my other post, if this is delivered as promised, then I think it is the best compromise option. And as someone who sees devolution as a process, im happy its aother step towards independence, and one the vast majority are happy to take.

This is where I think it might fall down and result in a backlash from Scotland. I actually trust the likes of Cameron, Milliband, et al on this (they would look like fools otherwise). It is the backbenchers I have less trust in.

[DaveF]

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

Don't you Geordies hate it when people use daft words :greengrin

The english clamour for devolvement will be interesting and with the West Lothian question already out there and up for discussion things could be quite different, quite soon.

I'm very disappointed at the result and a few posters on this thread have dissected things very well.

The staggering thing for me is the 600,000 odd who didn't vote. That's an incredible number.

Time to move on.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

That's unfair, and shows stunning ignorance of the issues involved.

[7 Hills]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

Sorry, but that is utter bollox. This was a chance to build a fairer and more socially just society. I'm old enough to remember how Scotland was treated under Margaret Thatcher's Tory party. Just you wait and see the absolute monstering this country is going to receive from Westminster.

The only cants mentioning bigotry against the English and all the Braveheart ***** were all on the No side of the campaign.

[lord bunberry]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

Your views are typical of someone who hasn't got a clue what the campaign was about, complete ignorance on your part if you think it was anything anti English, the English seem to think the world revolves around them when in reality they weren't even a consideration for most people.

[Hibrandenburg]

Scotland the country that voted democratically against democracy - Unbelievable!!!

The rest of the world is looking on with an open mouth and shaking their heads in confusion. At some point they'll let out a laugh.

[TheReg!]

http://rs1278.pbsrc.com/albums/y507/stevenfenton10/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps436eab2f.jpg~320x480

What a load of pish fella, would you say that to peoples face? Bad, bad loser!!

[Big Frank]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.



cannae say you've got a good grasp of things.... but very glad a youngster like yourself has an interest.

[the_ginger_hibee]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

Heard some nonsense from the Yes side but did not hear this once and this feeling was not evident whatsoever. There was anti-government, anti-war, anti-establishment, anti-tory/labour/____ feelings and comments and not all correct but never any anti-English sentiments. There seems to be a tendency for English people to reach for that perception despite being away from the action...was not the case.

[Hibrandenburg]

I feel fine with it - which surprises myself as someone who has wanted Scotland to be a proper country for my whole life.

I am happy because it has been settled, without a shadow of a doubt, without conspiracy or recrimination, fairly and democratically. And bizarrely, i'm also pleased it was big enough winning margin not to be agonisingly close (I remember thinking the same thing after Hearts cup final - getting pumped was better than losing 2-1 to a scrappy, flukey goal in injury time or something). Most people prefer Scotland not being a country, but being a semi autonomous region of a much bigger country. I don't agree but I respect it.

And actually, I think given there is a clear and very strong majority for devo-max/federalism etc, then ending up with a fairly radically reformed UK with effectively devo-max for Scotland is probably the best place as a compromise to suit most Scots, so I can make my peace with it.

Is there a strong case that we should have a GB football and rugby teams? I kinda feel that there is.

So what do people feel the reasons were?

I increasingly think that Yes targeting previous non-voters in west-central Scotland, in very deprived areas was an admission that they had lost the economic arguments and so were putting all of their eggs in that basket. I do believe the negative campaign from No worked well (that's not a criticism by the way, I don't see what's wrong with negative campaigning if it works), the business interventions were a big blow also.

Yes were always a bit sanctimonious I think, making out that positivity was the be all and end all. winning was the aim, and it was always my view that Yes never ever really pointed out the flaws with Union well enough, or early enough. They never made the case as to why lots of people (most of whom aren't unemployed in Easterhouse) should risk good standards of living, jobs, savings etc and take a risk on an, at best, economically un proven proposition. I think they recognised this late on, and tried to start going negative with the NHS stuff (which was pure nonsense, but was effective), but it was too late and they had left too many gaping holes in their economic plan.

All IMO, and all spoken as a Yes voter.

One thought that went through my head this morning is that at the moment I feel like I could never ever again stand on the terrace at Hampden and wholeheartedly get behind a Scottish team. How can you support something that's confined to the history books?

[ACLeith]

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

I don't see any smillies, but I do hope you're on the windup? If so, I won't take the bait. If not, then your level of ignorance is truly breathtaking and doesn't merit a reasoned response.

[Hibrandenburg]

You would still be British even if Scotland voted to be come independent, as you live on the British isles. That is like saying you're not European even though you live in Europe.

Can't escape the feeling that a lot of the YES voters did it out of pure bigotry to be honest. "We hate the mean old English, look at what their ancestors did that the the folk of today had no say in!".

For what it's worth I wish you voted yes aswell, a disgrace how England doesn't have its own parliament and Scotch MP's get to vote on English matters that are of no concern to them . Hopefully it's a landslide UKIP victory at the next election.

What a load of single fish. You south of the wall have got a **** storm brewing, the rise of rightwing sympathies amongst the general electorate is such that racial slurs and extreme views on immigration have almost become acceptable amongst the population. Our division was about self determination, yours is about race, religion and EU membership. I'd hoped that yesterday we could have distanced ourselves from what's coming but it would appear that we'll be dragged down that road with you.

[Gus]

Haha.. Like any change will happen

Do you know it won't?:confused:

[Scouse Hibee]

He's not that ignorant or perhaps someone can explain the "WTF did you vote for England for" response to several europeans in my work this morning when they discussed their vote. Like or not it's out there with more than you think. Ridiculous I know but there you have it, no doubt some English folk used their vote in the same way!

[Gus]

One thought that went through my head this morning is that at the moment I feel like I could never ever again stand on the terrace at Hampden and wholeheartedly get behind a Scottish team. How can you support something that's confined to the history books?

I'm sure comments like this is because it is still raw, but I have no doubt (even not knowing you) you will be there :aok:

[Tommy75]

Seems like a lot of people are upset with their fellow Scots because 55% of them who voted opted to stay in the Union. Democrary is a fickle mistress, we all knew it only needed one vote to win. I think we grew up as a nation through out the campagn, and gained a lot of respect both at home and abroad. Part of that growing up, I think, is learning to deal with election/referendum results that perhaps you disagree with.

Massive turn out. Majority voted no. Can't see the problem mysef.

[Phil D. Rolls]

He's not that ignorant or perhaps someone can explain the "WTF did you vote for England for" response to several europeans in my work this morning when they discussed their vote. Like or not it's out there with more than you think. Ridiculous I know but there you have it, no doubt some English folk used their vote in the same way!

The Edinburgh result looks like they did.

[Scouse Hibee]

The Edinburgh result looks like they did.
Yes I agree.

[Gatecrasher]

Haha.. Like any change will happen

I think it will.

[Judas Iscariot]

What a load of pish fella, would you say that to peoples face? Bad, bad loser!!

Yes I would :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

One thought that went through my head this morning is that at the moment I feel like I could never ever again stand on the terrace at Hampden and wholeheartedly get behind a Scottish team. How can you support something that's confined to the history books?

Why should we have a separate team anyway? I'm not sure we ever had much of a justification for being a special case. We sure as hell don't have one now!

[Bad Martini]

I would like to (genuinely) thank the people of Glasgow, Dundee, West Dumbartonshire and North Lanarkshire for ensuring we didn't look like complete ********s in front of the entire world. We do look stupid - don't get me wrong but a smidgeon less so, given we had 4 councils return a yes vote. The world will surely ask why the **** we bothered to vote in the SNP (by a huge landslide), a party who's agenda is independence......then when given the chance, turn our back's on......yep.....independence! :confused::rolleyes:

We had a chance to run this country and we said "no thanks". <<< Re-read slowly. Possibly the only country in the world who bang on and on and on and on about our wonderful Scottishness but when it comes to actually getting on with the big team stuff of running our own affairs, the resounding answer was "err, naw...you dae it".

So, they will. And we wont.

Furthermore, the evidence and even the "suggestion" was there for all to see that it just might work and there might be something in it for us, that the UK didn't want to lose. That not being the case, does anyone seriously believe Cameron, Clegg and Miliband pulled out of a Westminster session to nip up here for the greater good of Scotland? Offering us powers they could have given before "just because", when they thought the job was done, polls were sorted and the little rebellion north of the border was under control?

In addition, even before the ink was dry on the fantastic pledge/agreement/fag packet offer of "something, at sometime, when we figure out what", they had their own MP's openly defying the leaders, confirming they would vote against such powers for Scotland.

Even after all that, people STILL go and vote no, on the premise things will be better when we get these "powers". :confused:


However, we do need to move on but beore we do so, I genuinely wonder what people think we'll be handed for free that we can really usefully use in terms of more devolution? How much more can actually be "devolved" that is worth having, short of full control of our affairs? If they give us an option to alter specific taxes say, will they actually give us the powers to save money where we really can make a difference (such as not renewing trident which MOST (not all) MOST Scots, disagree with? We know the answer and that was a loaded question.

I was gonna say words fail me but frankly, they ****ing dont.

The saddest thing of all is, I am not surprised it went as it did.

[Judas Iscariot]

I would like to (genuinely) thank the people of Glasgow, Dundee, West Dumbartonshire and North Lanarkshire for ensuring we didn't look like complete ********s in front of the entire world. We do look stupid - don't get me wrong but a smidgeon less so, given we had 4 councils return a yes vote. The world will surely ask why the **** we bothered to vote in the SNP (by a huge landslide), a party who's agenda is independence......then when given the chance, turn our back's on......yep.....independence! :confused::rolleyes:

We had a chance to run this country and we said "no thanks". <<< Re-read slowly. Possibly the only country in the world who bang on and on and on and on about our wonderful Scottishness but when it comes to actually getting on with the big team stuff of running our own affairs, the resounding answer was "err, naw...you dae it".

So, they will. And we wont.

Furthermore, the evidence and even the "suggestion" was there for all to see that it just might work and there might be something in it for us, that the UK didn't want to lose. That not being the case, does anyone seriously believe Cameron, Clegg and Miliband pulled out of a Westminster session to nip up here for the greater good of Scotland? Offering us powers they could have given before "just because", when they thought the job was done, polls were sorted and the little rebellion north of the border was under control?

In addition, even before the ink was dry on the fantastic pledge/agreement/fag packet offer of "something, at sometime, when we figure out what", they had their own MP's openly defying the leaders, confirming they would vote against such powers for Scotland.

Even after all that, people STILL go and vote no, on the premise things will be better when we get these "powers". :confused:


However, we do need to move on but beore we do so, I genuinely wonder what people think we'll be handed for free that we can really usefully use in terms of more devolution? How much more can actually be "devolved" that is worth having, short of full control of our affairs? If they give us an option to alter specific taxes say, will they actually give us the powers to save money where we really can make a difference (such as not renewing trident which MOST (not all) MOST Scots, disagree with? We know the answer and that was a loaded question.

I was gonna say words fail me but frankly, they ****ing dont.

The saddest thing of all is, I am not surprised it went as it did.

:agree:

Fully expect a Tory government in at Holyrood come May 2016

[Hibrandenburg]

Scotland the country that voted democratically against democracy - Unbelievable!!!

The rest of the world is looking on with an open mouth and shaking their heads in confusion. At some point they'll let out a laugh.

[Blaster]

I voted no and am absolutely delighted. The biggest potential for yes was in Glasgow which ended up with the lowest turnout???

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and vote accordingly. The yes people need to accept that their case wasn't compelling enough.

Time now to move on and work together to ensure the promises of more devolved powers are delivered quickly

[Glorious St Pat]

I voted no and am absolutely delighted. The biggest potential for yes was in Glasgow which ended up with the lowest turnout???

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and vote accordingly. The yes people need to accept that their case wasn't compelling enough.

Time now to move on and work together to ensure the promises of more devolved powers are delivered quickly

You'll be waiting a long time. The anti Scottishness is swelling amongst English MPs and this pledge will be half baked.

Democracy fails when the markets win and the self preservation society that is the middle class largely won this vote. The Establishment have us by the balls and nothing will change. I feel sorry for the poor and working class if this country who came in large numbers only to be shafted once more.

[JeMeSouviens]

You'll be waiting a long time. The anti Scottishness is swelling amongst English MPs and this pledge will be half baked.

Democracy fails when the markets win and the self preservation society that is the middle class largely won this vote. The Establishment have us by the balls and nothing will change. I feel sorry for the poor and working class if this country who came in large numbers only to be shafted once more.

The outline of Cameron's plan is becoming clear:

- English votes for English laws, thus making it nearly impossible for Labour to govern Westminster if they're relying on Scottish MPs
- devolve income tax to Scotland and only apply Barnett multipliers to a much reduced block grant based on other taxes, a fast and loose interpretation of "the Vow" but what did we expect? :rolleyes:

As explained by Robert Peston of the Beeb:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29278544


All of which means that it may sound exciting and empowering in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland to make their own choices about taxing and spending.

But it may also be a bit nerve-wracking (or worse) if it provides cover for Westminster to reduce the income transferred to them from English taxpayers.


We are about to be shafted by the "best of both worlds". Who'd have thought it? :rolleyes:

[TheReg!]

Yes I would :aok:


Really? So, so bitter, accept the decision and move on, the majority of Scottish people have voted to stay within the UK and I'm one of them and i certainly never "Shat myself" nor did any of the people who i know who also voted NO, your yes vote screams I hate the English more than it does anything else, other people on this thread have accepted the decision with a heavy heart BUT fundamentally have argued a good case for Indy.:aok:

[Bad Martini]

Possible to like/love something without hating everything else???

I'm sure we all love our wives and girlfriends and don't hate every other woman on the planet?

So why can't the same apply to our country?

The two are not mutually exclusive......

[Lost_Mackem]

Sorry, but that is utter bollox. This was a chance to build a fairer and more socially just society. I'm old enough to remember how Scotland was treated under Margaret Thatcher's Tory party. Just you wait and see the absolute monstering this country is going to receive from Westminster.

The only cants mentioning bigotry against the English and all the Braveheart ***** were all on the No side of the campaign.

Don't preach to me about what Margaret Thatcher did to Scotland, you're talking to someone from the North East of England, we suffered as much if not more than you at the hands of that cow, at least Scotland has recovered from the consequences of Thatcher's policies, we are still suffering today.

At least with your referendum yesterday you had a chance to stick two fingers up to Cameron and Westminster, unfortunately we in the North East are stuck with them, and we will continue to be shafted by them.

The people in north east England have more in common with the Scots than we do with the rest of England. FACT.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Don't preach to me about what Margaret Thatcher did to Scotland, you're talking to someone from the North East of England, we suffered as much if not more than you at the hands of that cow, at least Scotland has recovered from the consequences of Thatcher's policies, we are still suffering today.

At least with your referendum yesterday you had a chance to stick two fingers up to Cameron and Westminster, unfortunately we in the North East are stuck with them, and we will continue to be shafted by them.

The people in north east England have more in common with the Scots than we do with the rest of England. FACT.

Poor you, do you think we got this far by saying "there's nothing we can do about it". People in England need to get off their knees.

[Lost_Mackem]

Poor you, do you think we got this far by saying "there's nothing we can do about it". People in England need to get off their knees.

There is nothing we can do about it, as we are a part of England unfortunately.

[Bad Martini]

There is nothing we can do about it, as we are a part of England unfortunately.
Don't worry. Thanks to last night, we're also still governed by Westminster mate... And we're not part of England.

NB you lot in the North can always migrate over the border up here... millibands not got the wall up or guards yet :cool:... Closer to easter road anaw

[Pretty Boy]

There is nothing we can do about it, as we are a part of England unfortunately.

You had a vote for a devolved assembly in the North East did you not?

It's about time some English, probably a tiny minority but if I'm quoting anecdotal evidence why not generalise, stopped nipping away how it's 'not fair Scotland gets this' and 'how come Wales gets this?' Stand up for yourselves man and demand your own assembly or parliament.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Quite sad to see this Anti-English thing being wheeled out by the referendum victors (and people who don't even live here) when I personally have never heard it used as a reason once by a YES voter. (Which if I'm being honest, I was very surprised at).

[allmodcons]

You had a vote for a devolved assembly in the North East did you not?

It's about time some English, probably a tiny minority but if I'm quoting anecdotal evidence why not generalise, stopped nipping away how it's 'not fair Scotland gets this' and 'how come Wales gets this?' Stand up for yourselves man and demand your own assembly or parliament.

They did, under plans drawn up by John Prescott.
There was very little appetite for it though.
Only around 20% backed a regional assembly in the NE of England.

[Phil D. Rolls]

There is nothing we can do about it, as we are a part of England unfortunately.

Use your imagination. 150 years ago, we were still calling ourselves North Britain.


You had a vote for a devolved assembly in the North East did you not?

It's about time some English, probably a tiny minority but if I'm quoting anecdotal evidence why not generalise, stopped nipping away how it's 'not fair Scotland gets this' and 'how come Wales gets this?' Stand up for yourselves man and demand your own assembly or parliament.

:agree:

[(((Fergus)))]

Or was not prepared to take a "gut-feel" gamble with your future. Time will tell whether that was the right decision or not.

Proud to be Scottish. Proud to be British.

I think it's interesting how we married England for money and, since the development of North Sea oil, we've been trying to divorce England for money. The only problem was Yes couldn't convince enough people that this new Darien adventure would work. It does show where our priorities lie, however. Has financial/material advancement ever been valid motive for a successful independence movement? Actually it seems that many of these movements were perfectly prepared to endure material suffering in order to gain freedom from genuine tyranny.

[LaMotta]

:eek:

[Betty Boop]

Alex Salmond resigned ?

[Bad Martini]

Salmond resigned just now

[CB_NO3]

:eek:

Lots of respect for Salmond. Don't agree with all his policies but he is a top politician. :agree:

[MyJo]

Shame as he has Done well as first minister, must be absolutely gutted after yesterday.

Those that voted based on thier dislike of him must be doubly happy today

[the_ginger_hibee]

Shame as he has Done well as first minister, must be absolutely gutted after yesterday.

Those that voted based on thier dislike of him must be doubly happy today

:agree:

He has let himself be judged on the indyref when IMO he has contributed a lot to the Scotland we live in today.

He could and should have went on to the next elections however he has done what he will believe is best for SNP and or Independence.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

At least it might stop me being asked if I'm related to him!

[Moulin Yarns]

Salmond resigned just now

His statement is"not standing for leader in November conference"

Not resigned just putting in place his successor.

[Bad Martini]

He'll continue as an MP. But not first minister of leader of the SNP.

Which means the awful sturgeon is likely to take over. Adds further misery to my grief today.

Salmond also stated Cameron won't commit to dates just agreed?? So, not even 24 hours affore we were screwed. If true, it won't be a generation before we next get a chance to **** up a referendum.

[ekhibee]

His statement is"not standing for leader in November conference"

Not resigned just putting in place his successor.
Not really, his exact words were he would not be standing for re-election at the SNP conference, that IS resignation as far as I'm concerned.

[NAE NOOKIE]

One of the saddest days of my life.

If You are one of the 55% you can rationalise it all you like .... you can make a speech which would be the envy of histories greatest orators .... But for me you gave up the chance to make the country you will swear you love as much as me a proper nation in the eyes of the world. That was your democratic choice and you exercised it .... as was your right.

So all I will say is good luck to you ..... but next time you go to Hampden don't forget to take your union flag. That is your allegiance, that is your country and you should be proud of it. I'm just sad there isn't a British football team for you to support, perhaps one day soon that will happen .... the African countries have always been up in arms that one country can enter 4 regional teams into the world cup.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Salmond resigned just now

Its hard to carry on with a broken heart. Legend in my eyes.

[johnbc70]

I may be a No voter but Salmond stepping down will be a loss, probably the best politician in the country just now. He has no choice though as he ultimately failed, despite having many years to do so, to convince the Scottish people of the case for independence.

[Mikey_1875]

Have a feeling Salmonds resignation may be felt as a loss for both sides of the vote. Always acted 100% in what he thought were Scotlands best interests, just hope the next leader is the same.

[DaveF]

I think it will.

Just a wee delay though as Dave's not committing to the 2nd reading date, while Ed's not committing to anything.

And if you heard Boris Johnson on the radio earlier then Scotland is getting nothing without England getting something first. Yes, Johnson is a boorish oaf, but he's an influential boorish oaf.

[(((Fergus)))]

I may be a No voter but Salmond stepping down will be a loss, probably the best politician in the country just now. He has no choice though as he ultimately failed, despite having many years to do so, to convince the Scottish people of the case for independence.

He was a great showman, very emotive, but his inability to give a Plan B told me - and I suspect many others - that there wasn't much substance.

[Gatecrasher]

Just a wee delay though as Dave's not committing to the 2nd reading date, while Ed's not committing to anything.

And if you heard Boris Johnson on the radio earlier then Scotland is getting nothing without England getting something first. Yes, Johnson is a boorish oaf, but he's an influential boorish oaf.

Imo if they don't then it's pretty much political suicide up here and we'll be in this situation again very quickly.

[CropleyWasGod]

He was a great showman, very emotive, but his inability to give a Plan B told me - and I suspect many others - that there wasn't much substance.

:confused:

There was a Plan B, C, D and E.

[lord bunberry]

One of the saddest days of my life.

If You are one of the 55% you can rationalise it all you like .... you can make a speech which would be the envy of histories greatest orators .... But for me you gave up the chance to make the country you will swear you love as much as me a proper nation in the eyes of the world. That was your democratic choice and you exercised it .... as was your right.

So all I will say is good luck to you ..... but next time you go to Hampden don't forget to take your union flag. That is your allegiance, that is your country and you should be proud of it. I'm just sad there isn't a British football team for you to support, perhaps one day soon that will happen .... the African countries have always been up in arms that one country can enter 4 regional teams into the world cup.
:top marks

[Scottie]

Alec Salmond took Scotland to the brink of history last night and it was his fellow Scotsmen who let him down at the moment of battle when it really mattered.

He done a fantastic job getting the country to within touching distance of Independence and finally cutting off the chains that Westminster bestowed upon us.

He is a fine politician that can hold his head up amongst all of the previous leaders that Scotland has ever had. :saltireflag

[johnbc70]

:confused:

There was a Plan B, C, D and E.

Which clearly many people thought were not credible.

[CropleyWasGod]

Which clearly many people thought were not credible.

Indeed, but the accusation was that he didn't give one.

[Jamesconnolly]

One of the saddest days of my life.

If You are one of the 55% you can rationalise it all you like .... you can make a speech which would be the envy of histories greatest orators .... But for me you gave up the chance to make the country you will swear you love as much as me a proper nation in the eyes of the world. That was your democratic choice and you exercised it .... as was your right.

So all I will say is good luck to you ..... but next time you go to Hampden don't forget to take your union flag. That is your allegiance, that is your country and you should be proud of it. I'm just sad there isn't a British football team for you to support, perhaps one day soon that will happen .... the African countries have always been up in arms that one country can enter 4 regional teams into the world cup.

Spot on mate.saddest day of my life too.I am actually taking a little sick pleasure at ed
Milliband already backing out .hook line and sinker NO voters caught like wee baggies in a net .:confused:

[theonlywayisup]

IN MEMORIUM - SCOTLAND, DIED 18th SEPTEMBER 2014

Today I woke up to being Scottish no more after 55% of the people up here decided they wanted to be British and NOT Scottish. One of the first things I did was to take down my framed Declaration of Arbroath and throw it in the bucket, it means NOTHING now thanks to the 55%. From this day onwards, the country formerly known as Scotland, becomes Northern Britain. I will now never again vote in what is a UK general election because my vote is meaningless and we will again have to accept what south England decides.
Maybe time will help heal things but right now, I am angry and ashamed to have previously called myself Scottish.

What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.

[MyJo]

Imo if they don't then it's pretty much political suicide up here and we'll be in this situation again very quickly.

How does it impact the tories if they go back on this? They dont have anyone voting for them in scotland anyway so they aren't going to lose any support because of it. Labour can huff and puff and stamp thier feet but at the end of the day its the Tories that are in power so if they vote against it then Labour can do jacks**t about it.

Thier antics during the referendum campaign will have turned a lot of scottish voters against them anyway, not getting the extra powers promised to us is only going to hurt Labour more (something im sure David Cameron can live with)

As for being back in this situation do you really think that any prime minister, of any political persuasion, will be stupid enough to allow another referendum to be held.

For the next 20 or 30 years we will be told that we had our chance in 2014 and you said no, live with it.

We are going to get completely shafted

[Phil D. Rolls]

One of the saddest days of my life.

If You are one of the 55% you can rationalise it all you like .... you can make a speech which would be the envy of histories greatest orators .... But for me you gave up the chance to make the country you will swear you love as much as me a proper nation in the eyes of the world. That was your democratic choice and you exercised it .... as was your right.

So all I will say is good luck to you ..... but next time you go to Hampden don't forget to take your union flag. That is your allegiance, that is your country and you should be proud of it. I'm just sad there isn't a British football team for you to support, perhaps one day soon that will happen .... the African countries have always been up in arms that one country can enter 4 regional teams into the world cup.

:top marks


What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.

Who's this "we"?

[CB_NO3]

What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.
I could never be proud to be British. I dont want to stereotype but Brits are hated all over the world. I hate how the British education system teaches kids about how great the British people were during the war when they were ruling empires all over the world, murdering anyone that stood in their way. Its all false and people get sucked into their propaganda. Am not anti English one bit. I have good English friends and I think London is a fantastic city but the British government and monarchy make me sick.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.

Yup, 100% Scottish! the same way someone from Cornwall is 100% Cornish and someone from Yorkshire is 100% Yorkshire.

We are NOT a country. The no vote has confirmed that argument definitively. We are absolutely just a region of Britain, that's what we voted for.

Real countries take big, scary grown-up decisions that are hard. We decided to let London do that for us.

And the further devolution is starting to unravel already...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

How does it impact the tories if they go back on this? They dont have anyone voting for them in scotland anyway so they aren't going to lose any support because of it. Labour can huff and puff and stamp thier feet but at the end of the day its the Tories that are in power so if they vote against it then Labour can do jacks**t about it.

Thier antics during the referendum campaign will have turned a lot of scottish voters against them anyway, not getting the extra powers promised to us is only going to hurt Labour more (something im sure David Cameron can live with)

As for being back in this situation do you really think that any prime minister, of any political persuasion, will be stupid enough to allow another referendum to be held.

For the next 20 or 30 years we will be told that we had our chance in 2014 and you said no, live with it.

We are going to get completely shafted


It's labour you will need to worry about IMO...

[FinlayHibs]

As a hibs boy for the last 30 year I'm a nationalist and as mr salmand might be wee fat Jambo the mans a national treasure .... The man had a belief and for what he has done for our special nation and a stand against an uneven sociaty I thank you eck !!!!! From me a scot hibs boy and a nat I will still baleive !!!! GGTTH

[NAE NOOKIE]

What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.

Phil D Rolls has already said it, but ................. who's this "we" you are on about.

[marinello59]

Phil D Rolls has already said it, but ................. who's this "we" you are on about.

I can't answer for him but the natural assumption to make is he means the large amount of people who are comfortable with being both British and Scots. Alex Salmond said the two are not incompatible, you don't have to be one or the other. Some of us may not understand that state of mind but I can't see why we can't respect the right to define their own identity. Just as someone who defines themselves as 100% Scottish can vote No there were plenty of us who are not Nationalists at all who could vote Yes.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Spot on mate.saddest day of my life too.I am actually taking a little sick pleasure at ed
Milliband already backing out .hook line and sinker NO voters caught like wee baggies in a net .:confused:

Yeh ....... Just wait for the Tory rank and file to get the knives oot fur Cameron ... everybody hates a groveller .... then we'll be off and running.

Liking the username mate ..... are you from the Borders where the sheep population rose by 55,000 just this very day.

[Jamesconnolly]

Yeh ....... Just wait for the Tory rank and file to get the knives oot fur Cameron ... everybody hates a groveller .... then we'll be off and running.

Liking the username mate ..... are you from the Borders where the sheep population rose by 55,000 just this very day.

AYE from Selkirk mate absolutely gutted with the borders vote but not surprised there is a big English population here and you know where most of their vote is going.i am struggling to believe the size of the no vote can't say I saw that much of them to be honest.at the end of the day the London boys wanted a no vote and they were going to get it by hook or by crook.one thing though it's not going to be the rosy country the no(guts)voters were hoping for.had the old carpet pulled right out from under them .
On a side note some numpty no burnt a saltire in George square tonight.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sir David Gray]

I got the result I wanted last night but I also want the country to unite now. Unfortunately there is the potential for a massive divide to develop and scenes like those in George Square this evening are extremely regrettable.

Those on the No side have got what they wanted. I don't see the need to go out in public and try to wind people up and cause friction with your fellow citizens, people that you have to continue to work and live beside.

As for Alex Salmond, I certainly won't miss him.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Anyway, I'm away to Newcastle to drown my sorrows.

Traitor - you should be spending your money in your own country.

[MyJo]

Traitor - you should be spending your money in your own country.

He is.....unfortunately :rolleyes:

[Danderhall Hibs]

He is.....unfortunately :rolleyes:

Wonder if he got over the border with no hassle.

[McIntosh]

I feel fine with it - which surprises myself as someone who has wanted Scotland to be a proper country for my whole life.

I am happy because it has been settled, without a shadow of a doubt, without conspiracy or recrimination, fairly and democratically. And bizarrely, i'm also pleased it was big enough winning margin not to be agonisingly close (I remember thinking the same thing after Hearts cup final - getting pumped was better than losing 2-1 to a scrappy, flukey goal in injury time or something). Most people prefer Scotland not being a country, but being a semi autonomous region of a much bigger country. I don't agree but I respect it.

And actually, I think given there is a clear and very strong majority for devo-max/federalism etc, then ending up with a fairly radically reformed UK with effectively devo-max for Scotland is probably the best place as a compromise to suit most Scots, so I can make my peace with it.

Is there a strong case that we should have a GB football and rugby teams? I kinda feel that there is.

So what do people feel the reasons were?

I increasingly think that Yes targeting previous non-voters in west-central Scotland, in very deprived areas was an admission that they had lost the economic arguments and so were putting all of their eggs in that basket. I do believe the negative campaign from No worked well (that's not a criticism by the way, I don't see what's wrong with negative campaigning if it works), the business interventions were a big blow also.

Yes were always a bit sanctimonious I think, making out that positivity was the be all and end all. winning was the aim, and it was always my view that Yes never ever really pointed out the flaws with Union well enough, or early enough. They never made the case as to why lots of people (most of whom aren't unemployed in Easterhouse) should risk good standards of living, jobs, savings etc and take a risk on an, at best, economically un proven proposition. I think they recognised this late on, and tried to start going negative with the NHS stuff (which was pure nonsense, but was effective), but it was too late and they had left too many gaping holes in their economic plan.

All IMO, and all spoken as a Yes voter. great post

[OsloHibs]

I would like to (genuinely) thank the people of Glasgow, Dundee, West Dumbartonshire and North Lanarkshire for ensuring we didn't look like complete ********s in front of the entire world. We do look stupid - don't get me wrong but a smidgeon less so, given we had 4 councils return a yes vote. The world will surely ask why the **** we bothered to vote in the SNP (by a huge landslide), a party who's agenda is independence......then when given the chance, turn our back's on......yep.....independence! :confused::rolleyes:

We had a chance to run this country and we said "no thanks". <<< Re-read slowly. Possibly the only country in the world who bang on and on and on and on about our wonderful Scottishness but when it comes to actually getting on with the big team stuff of running our own affairs, the resounding answer was "err, naw...you dae it".

So, they will. And we wont.

Furthermore, the evidence and even the "suggestion" was there for all to see that it just might work and there might be something in it for us, that the UK didn't want to lose. That not being the case, does anyone seriously believe Cameron, Clegg and Miliband pulled out of a Westminster session to nip up here for the greater good of Scotland? Offering us powers they could have given before "just because", when they thought the job was done, polls were sorted and the little rebellion north of the border was under control?

In addition, even before the ink was dry on the fantastic pledge/agreement/fag packet offer of "something, at sometime, when we figure out what", they had their own MP's openly defying the leaders, confirming they would vote against such powers for Scotland.

Even after all that, people STILL go and vote no, on the premise things will be better when we get these "powers". :confused:


However, we do need to move on but beore we do so, I genuinely wonder what people think we'll be handed for free that we can really usefully use in terms of more devolution? How much more can actually be "devolved" that is worth having, short of full control of our affairs? If they give us an option to alter specific taxes say, will they actually give us the powers to save money where we really can make a difference (such as not renewing trident which MOST (not all) MOST Scots, disagree with? We know the answer and that was a loaded question.

I was gonna say words fail me but frankly, they ****ing dont.

The saddest thing of all is, I am not surprised it went as it did.

:not worth

[degenerated]

The rest of the world is looking on with an open mouth and shaking their heads in confusion. At some point they'll let out a laugh.
I think this about fits the bill :greengrin

http://youtu.be/G1tJJO_pVvQ

[MyJo]

Wonder if he got over the border with no hassle.

no hassle, just a heavy dose of shame and resentment.

[Danderhall Hibs]

no hassle, just a heavy dose of shame and resentment.

So there is still a border?

From reading here I thought it was away.

[One Day Soon]

Indeed, but the accusation was that he didn't give one.

That's because he didn't.

[MyJo]

So there is still a border?

From reading here I thought it was away.

There is a border in the same way that there is a border between Devon and Cornwall......administrative and pretty much meaningless.

[Leith Green]

The funny thing is, in 5,10,15 years time and forever more some of the people who had a chance to do something but voted not to, will continue to whinge about this that and the next thing..

We had the chance to control are our own country and equip ourselves with the powers to ensure Scotland decided what Scotland got. Now we continue with same old state of affairs where another country decides what happens in our country.

Thanks a lot to all the No voters, remember we told you so when you realise that our voice counts for nothing. I feel embarrassed to have to explain this to my kids when they grow up.

[Swedish hibee]

I read this posted by a 17 year old female :applause:

Well done Alex you have roused 1.6 million that are disillusioned by the greed & lies of Westminster. You've taken on three massive parties and the London media machine. No riots, no bombs and no loss of life. We Thank you for the opportunity of hope.. and the great lesson of hope is what I shall take with me.

[Pretty Boy]

I read this posted by a 17 year old female :applause:

Well done Alex you have roused 1.6 million that are disillusioned by the greed & lies of Westminster. You've taken on three massive parties and the London media machine. No riots, no bombs and no loss of life. We Thank you for the opportunity of hope.. and the great lesson of hope is what I shall take with me.

Great words.

I'm proud to be part of the 45% and I really believe we will be back here, in some shape or form, in the not too distant future. If the additional devolved powers aren't delivered there will be one hell of a backlash.

[One Day Soon]

Yeh ....... Just wait for the Tory rank and file to get the knives oot fur Cameron ... everybody hates a groveller .... then we'll be off and running.

Liking the username mate ..... are you from the Borders where the sheep population rose by 55,000 just this very day.


Your offensiveness knows little bounds. Has it ever crossed your mind that one of the many reasons why many of us supported No is that there is a clear case to argue that the alternative would have increased poverty and not reduced it?

It seriously pisses me off that so many of the cheerleaders for Yes were people in well protected positions with big safe incomes and pensions (I'm not accusing you of this) who would have been nicely insulated from the post-Indy cuts, cuts that would have fallen on the very poorest.

We could all divide and label the other side as sheep or class traitors. Doesn't really help us move forward.

[DaveF]

Your offensiveness knows little bounds. Has it ever crossed your mind that one of the many reasons why many of us supported No is that there is a clear case to argue that the alternative would have increased poverty and not reduced it?

It seriously pisses me off that so many of the cheerleaders for Yes were people in well protected positions with big safe incomes and pensions (I'm not accusing you of this) who would have been nicely insulated from the post-Indy cuts, cuts that would have fallen on the very poorest.

We could all divide and label the other side as sheep or class traitors. Doesn't really help us move forward.

You are right, but you did just that in your previous sentence.

[Leith Green]

Your offensiveness knows little bounds. Has it ever crossed your mind that one of the many reasons why many of us supported No is that there is a clear case to argue that the alternative would have increased poverty and not reduced it?

It seriously pisses me off that so many of the cheerleaders for Yes were people in well protected positions with big safe incomes and pensions (I'm not accusing you of this) who would have been nicely insulated from the post-Indy cuts, cuts that would have fallen on the very poorest.

We could all divide and label the other side as sheep or class traitors. Doesn't really help us move forward.


Id counter that by arguing that the complete opposite is the case. A lot of the No voters were protecting their own wealth, many of them English, and many claiming they would leave if it were a Yes vote. And these people care about Scotland and its people? Aye right

[Swedish hibee]

Id counter that by arguing that the complete opposite is the case. A lot of the No voters were protecting their own wealth, many of them English, and many claiming they would leave if it were a Yes vote. And these people care about Scotland and its people? Aye right

:aok: Well said.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Just burnt my kilt.

[Northernhibee]

I'd wager that every single person who voted yesterday voted the way that they did because they thought it was best for Scotland. We all have different upbringings, are exposed to different points of view and live different day to day lives so the motivation that leads us to thinking what is best may differ but I don't believe for a second that people weren't voting for what they thought was right.

[One Day Soon]

You are right, but you did just that in your previous sentence.

Bit unclear on which sentence you are referring to Dave.

[Killiehibbie]

I'd wager that every single person who voted yesterday voted the way that they did because they thought it was best for Scotland. We all have different upbringings, are exposed to different points of view and live different day to day lives so the motivation that leads us to thinking what is best may differ but I don't believe for a second that people weren't voting for what they thought was right.
I'd wager that an awful lot of those who voted did what they thought was best for them because they don't care about anybody else.

[MyJo]

I'd wager that every single person who voted yesterday voted the way that they did because they thought it was best for Scotland. We all have different upbringings, are exposed to different points of view and live different day to day lives so the motivation that leads us to thinking what is best may differ but I don't believe for a second that people weren't voting for what they thought was right.

A lot of people will have voted for what was best for themselves, not scotland.

[DaveF]

Your offensiveness knows little bounds. Has it ever crossed your mind that one of the many reasons why many of us supported No is that there is a clear case to argue that the alternative would have increased poverty and not reduced it?

It seriously pisses me off that so many of the cheerleaders for Yes were people in well protected positions with big safe incomes and pensions (I'm not accusing you of this) who would have been nicely insulated from the post-Indy cuts, cuts that would have fallen on the very poorest.

We could all divide and label the other side as sheep or class traitors. Doesn't really help us move forward.


Bit unclear on which sentence you are referring to Dave.

Those 2 don't sit with your overall sentiment IMO.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think this about fits the bill :greengrin

http://youtu.be/G1tJJO_pVvQ

Never has that seen rang truer than today!

[One Day Soon]

Id counter that by arguing that the complete opposite is the case. A lot of the No voters were protecting their own wealth, many of them English, and many claiming they would leave if it were a Yes vote. And these people care about Scotland and its people? Aye right


Listen to yourself. This is the worst kind of paranoid nationalism. Yes had English campaigners for Indy. Here AND in England.

Supporting independence doesn't make you a bigger patriot than someone who doesn't, it makes you a bigger nationalist.

You do not have a monopoly on caring about Scotland and our people.

[One Day Soon]

Those 2 don't sit with your overall sentiment IMO.

Yes but my point is that while I'm not happy with those people I'm not then going on to label them as sheep or class traitors. It is after all possible that people on both sides voted the way they did because they believed that either Yes or No was in the best interests of Scottish people.

[Pretty Boy]

A lot of people will have voted for what was best for themselves, not scotland.

Yep.

Not that I criticise anyone for that. Friend of mine has just bought a house and had his 1st baby. Said the short term uncertaintity about interest rates and currency worried him so he voted no, said had circumstances been different he would have been a yes.

[scoopyboy]

Irrespective of how anybody voted, if you were Scottish on Wednesday then you're still Scottish today.

Nothing will change that.

[DaveF]

Yes but my point is that while I'm not happy with those people I'm not then going on to label them as sheep or class traitors. It is after all possible that people on both sides voted the way they did because they believed that either Yes or No was in the best interests of Scottish people.

Right, so it's OK to slag them off but not to label them?

Must be a political thing :greengrin

[Leith Green]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;4174867]Listen to yourself. This is the worst kind of paranoid nationalism. Yes had English campaigners for Indy. Here AND in England.

Supporting independence doesn't make you a bigger patriot than someone who doesn't, it makes you a bigger nationalist.

You do not have a monopoly on caring about Scotland and our people.[/QUOTE

You are missing the point here spectacularly, the people i was referring to ( through personal experience through my line of work) couldn't give a toss about Scotland or its people, forget monopoly on caring for Scotland, that sort don't care about anything except themselves

Are you really trying to tell me the people I mention really gave a **** about how any of this affects the working class Scot?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Irrespective of how anybody voted, if you were Scottish on Wednesday then you're still Scottish today.

Nothing will change that.

:agree: I'm reading lots of drama but hopefully folk will reflect and calm down.

[One Day Soon]

Right, so it's OK to slag them off but not to label them?

Must be a political thing :greengrin


I'm not 'slagging them off' I'm pointing out their insulation from the consequences of what they were advocating.

Must be a sensitivity thing :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;4174867]Listen to yourself. This is the worst kind of paranoid nationalism. Yes had English campaigners for Indy. Here AND in England.

Supporting independence doesn't make you a bigger patriot than someone who doesn't, it makes you a bigger nationalist.

You do not have a monopoly on caring about Scotland and our people.[/QUOTE

You are missing the point here spectacularly, the people i was referring to ( through personal experience through my line of work) couldn't give a toss about Scotland or its people, forget monopoly on caring for Scotland, that sort don't care about anything except themselves

Are you really trying to tell me the people I mention really gave a **** about how any of this affects the working class Scot?


So what you are saying is what, that there are good English people and bad English people? Your point seems like directionless rage that in a democratic vote you didn't get the result you wanted.

I think that most people on both sides voted for what they thought was best for the Scottish people.

[DaveF]

I'm not 'slagging them off' I'm pointing out their insulation from the consequences of what they were advocating.

Must be a sensitivity thing :greengrin

Not here ODS :greengrin

And you were slagging them off, no matter how many big words you may want to use in your defence.

[MyJo]

Yep.

Not that I criticise anyone for that. Friend of mine has just bought a house and had his 1st baby. Said the short term uncertaintity about interest rates and currency worried him so he voted no, said had circumstances been different he would have been a yes.

I'm currently sitting in work listening to a few No voters talking amongst themselves about thier decision and bemoaning the fact that Yes voters are going to blame them for anything that goes wrong in future and the justification was from all of them "i dont want to risk my house/job/pension" nothing about scotland being better off, just what they wanted to protect by voting No.

[One Day Soon]

Not here ODS :greengrin

And you were slagging them off, no matter how many big words you may want to use in your defence.


Ok then, this is the new Scotland we just missed out on where you tell me what I really think.

[theonlywayisup]

A lot of people will have voted for what was best for themselves, not scotland.

So, please tell me why a Yes vote was the right thing for Scotland.

[Swedish hibee]

Irrespective of how anybody voted, if you were Scottish on Wednesday then you're still Scottish today.

Nothing will change that.

And nothing will change the class divide between the middle/upper class & poor unless Scotland as a country stands up to it and votes for equality.
Will everyone still want to be Scottish when the Tories/UKIP win the next election?

[Danderhall Hibs]

And nothing will change the class divide between the middle/upper class & poor unless Scotland as a country stands up to it and votes for equality.
Will everyone still want to be Scottish when the Tories/UKIP win the next election?

Yes. Why wouldn't I want to be scottish?

[Swedish hibee]

Yes. Why wouldn't I want to be scottish?

And be ruled by Boris & Nigel? Wow.

[johnbc70]

And nothing will change the class divide between the middle/upper class & poor unless Scotland as a country stands up to it and votes for equality.
Will everyone still want to be Scottish when the Tories/UKIP win the next election?

I will always be Scottish, what a strange thing to say. Why do you think whatever government is in power defines whether someone is Scottish or not.

[Danderhall Hibs]

And be ruled by Boris & Nigel? Wow.

Eh? If I say I'm not scottish will they not "rule" me?

[johnbc70]

And be ruled by Boris & Nigel? Wow.

Even if Boris or Nigel becomes PM how does that make anyone not want to be Scottish. You have totally lost me on this.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Even if Boris or Nigel becomes PM how does that make anyone not want to be Scottish. You have totally lost me on this.

Just random dramatic pish that's being posted.

[over the line]

A lot of people will have voted for what was best for themselves, not scotland.

So if a lot (majority) of people in Scotland voted for what is best for them, then surely that is exactly what is best for Scotland isn't it?

[The Harp Awakes]

Great words.

I'm proud to be part of the 45% and I really believe we will be back here, in some shape or form, in the not too distant future. If the additional devolved powers aren't delivered there will be one hell of a backlash.

Spoke to a friend in the pub tonight who voted no and he said that the SNP were now finished as a political party.

The SNP not too long ago were a protest party with a few thousand members. They won a minority government in 2007 against the odds. They won a majority government in 2011 against the odds and secured a referendum on independence which most said would never happen. They came close to realising the dream. In the last 24 hours their membership has grown by 1000. In the last 5 years the SNP's membership has increased at a greater rate than any other political party in the UK.

As Salmond says the dream will never end. Saor Alba.

[Monopolyguy]

What a load of rubbish. In all my years, I don't think I have ever ready such a rubbish as that. We are 100% Scottish. We are also proud to be British.


What does that even mean though? It's like people from California saying they're proud to be Californians and Americans, Or people from Bavarians saing they are proud to be Bavarians and Germans. At the end of the day though they are really just Americans and Germans and anything else is just meaningless local pride.

This, to me is the ultimate in being in denial, something that people have been subconsioulsy programmed to say. What Scotland are you even talking about? It doesn't and hasn't existed in over 300 years, personally i think the whole idea of Scotland being a nation within a nation is just an illusion to keep us happy and compliant (It hasn't worked with a lot of us though), we are just the lower populated northern half of the UK when you cut past all the BS. I won't deny that we have had a lot of influence in the union, but personally, i think when all is said and done everything the UK has done has started and ended with those in power at Westmisnter and that is always going to be the case.

If you think you are 100% Scottish then fine, but to the rest of the wider world that means very little, we are still just regarded as the UK to the rest of the world or even as just England to those in the States, Scotland as a solid and influential entity doesn't have any substance in the wider world.

I voted Yes, not because of any hatred for English people or some stirred-up hysterical nationalism but because i find the surge in the far right in England quite alarming and I can not see past some extreme, xenophobic, working class hating government beinng elected within the next 5-10 years. I honestly hope i am wrong and that i can look back at these posts and laugh , but i think that we as a people had a chance to distance oursleves from this crap and rise above it, but to me it looks like we have scored a massive own goal that is going to come back and bite us on the arse big time.

[The Baldmans Comb]

What does that even mean though? It's like people from California saying they're proud to be Californians and Americans, Or people from Bavarians saing they are proud to be Bavarians and Germans. At the end of the day though they are really just Americans and Germans and anything else is just meaningless local pride.

This, to me is the ultimate in being in denial, something that people have been subconsioulsy programmed to say. What Scotland are you even talking about? It doesn't and hasn't existed in over 300 years, personally i think the whole idea of Scotland being a nation within a nation is just an illusion to keep us happy and compliant (It hasn't worked with a lot of us though), we are just the lower populated northern half of the UK when you cut past all the BS. I won't deny that we have had a lot of influence in the union, but personally, i think when all is said and done everything the UK has done has started and ended with those in power at Westmisnter and that is always going to be the case.

If you think you are 100% Scottish then fine, but to the rest of the wider world that means very little, we are still just regarded as the UK to the rest of the world or even as just England to those in the States, Scotland as a solid and influential entity doesn't have any substance in the wider world.

I voted Yes, not because of any hatred for English people or some stirred-up hysterical nationalism but because i find the surge in the far right in England quite alarming and I can not see past some extreme, xenophobic, working class hating government beinng elected within the next 5-10 years. I honestly hope i am wrong and that i can look back at these posts and laugh , but i think that we as a people had a chance to distance oursleves from this crap and rise above it, but to me it looks like we have scored a massive own goal that is going to come back and bite us on the arse big time.


That was very perceptive. Many thanks.

[Hannah_hfc]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes supporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

[Beefster]

Irrespective of how anybody voted, if you were Scottish on Wednesday then you're still Scottish today.

Nothing will change that.

Spot on, scoops. Hopefully, once all the hysteria and tantrums die down, everyone will accept that.

[Colr]

Even if Boris or Nigel becomes PM how does that make anyone not want to be Scottish. You have totally lost me on this.

Nigel is terrifying. Can't you just imagine him in an SS officers uniform? Maybe its just me!

Not sure about Boris getting PM. Teresa May is much more popular amongst Tory MPs than Boris is.

Boris has been much better as mayor than most expected him to be but PM is a very different type of job. He would have to change and develop a lot but he's pretty clever. Personally, I don't see it. Tory lader elections tend to go off in unpredictable directions. They never really intended to elect Heath, Tatcher, Major, but it happened.

[theonlywayisup]

What does that even mean though? It's like people from California saying they're proud to be Californians and Americans, Or people from Bavarians saing they are proud to be Bavarians and Germans. At the end of the day though they are really just Americans and Germans and anything else is just meaningless local pride.

This, to me is the ultimate in being in denial, something that people have been subconsioulsy programmed to say. What Scotland are you even talking about? It doesn't and hasn't existed in over 300 years, personally i think the whole idea of Scotland being a nation within a nation is just an illusion to keep us happy and compliant (It hasn't worked with a lot of us though), we are just the lower populated northern half of the UK when you cut past all the BS. I won't deny that we have had a lot of influence in the union, but personally, i think when all is said and done everything the UK has done has started and ended with those in power at Westmisnter and that is always going to be the case.

If you think you are 100% Scottish then fine, but to the rest of the wider world that means very little, we are still just regarded as the UK to the rest of the world or even as just England to those in the States, Scotland as a solid and influential entity doesn't have any substance in the wider world.

I voted Yes, not because of any hatred for English people or some stirred-up hysterical nationalism but because i find the surge in the far right in England quite alarming and I can not see past some extreme, xenophobic, working class hating government beinng elected within the next 5-10 years. I honestly hope i am wrong and that i can look back at these posts and laugh , but i think that we as a people had a chance to distance oursleves from this crap and rise above it, but to me it looks like we have scored a massive own goal that is going to come back and bite us on the arse big time.

I thought a good reply until I read the bit in bold. You are voting for the break up of the United Kingdom on a gut feel of what might happen in England. Strange! Very strange!

Obviously lots of passionate people on .net wanting Scotland to be independent. If the result was a Yes, I would have been disappointed, but I would then hope that we would all work together to build that brighter future for Scotland. However, the Yes campaign did not provide enough information to me (and many others) on why Scotland would be better outside the UK. It came down to a gamble, a gutfeel. In my work, we talk about evidence based decision making. If I proposed a project in a manner that the Yes campaign promoted the break out of the UK, I would be today looking for another job. Until the SNP can can provide further information on the divorce settlement, then I will always be a No. Sorry if people see that as me letting down my fellow Scotsmen, but that is how I see it.

[theonlywayisup]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes supporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

:top marks

My thoughts entirely.

[RyeSloan]

I thought a good reply until I read the bit in bold. You are voting for the break up of the United Kingdom on a gut feel of what might happen in England. Strange! Very strange! Obviously lots of passionate people on .net wanting Scotland to be independent. If the result was a Yes, I would have been disappointed, but I would then hope that we would all work together to build that brighter future for Scotland. However, the Yes campaign did not provide enough information to me (and many others) on why Scotland would be better outside the UK. It came down to a gamble, a gutfeel. In my work, we talk about evidence based decision making. If I proposed a project in a manner that the Yes campaign promoted the break out of the UK, I would be today looking for another job. Until the SNP can can provide further information on the divorce settlement, then I will always be a No. Sorry if people see that as me letting down my fellow Scotsmen, but that is how I see it.

I can only agree....I know a lot of Yes voters were happy to take the leap of faith but I said from the start the proposal lacked detail. I get that there were many reasons for this but in terms of evidenced based decision making there was no option for many No voters and I believe that's why Yes failed.

Many couldn't vote for something the was undefined and to be decided by an unidentified group of negotiators. Many stated they voted Yes to remove Trident but at the same time that could easily have been used a bargaining chip in the negotiation and we would have had trident for decades to come...that type of unknown resulted in the outcome in my opinion. IF there had been an option for the nation to ratify the independence settlement I'm convinced there would have been a substantial majority who would have authorised negotiations (and provided a very strong mandate for 'Scotland' to do so) safe in the knowledge that they would have a say in agreeing to what had been negotiated.

The idea of agreeing to something before you knew what that something actually was didn't sit well with many people I spoke to and may ultimately have been the reason for No....nothing to do with being proud to be British or loving Call me Dave.

[Phil D. Rolls]

And nothing will change the class divide between the middle/upper class & poor unless Scotland as a country stands up to it and votes for equality.
Will everyone still want to be Scottish when the Tories/UKIP win the next election?

55% of the population deserve everything that's coming their way. They now have a responsibility to ensure that Westminster doesn't renege :faf: on the promises it made.

Sorry, I'm trying to keep a straight face.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes supporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

Dry your eyes, you'll soon see why people are so angry. Angry that you fell for such simple lies, and angry that No voters will now disengage from the political process, by not holding your leaders to account.

The *******s changed their story within 12 hours of the result!

[over the line]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes supporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

Totally agree, some right nonsense being posted on here at mo. I notice the lack of triumphant and jubilant posts from No voters, which is a credit to them. I wonder if the same would be true if the vote had been Yes.

[Peevemor]

Dry your eyes, you'll soon see why people are so angry. Angry that you fell for such simple lies, and angry that No voters will now disengage from the political process, by not holding your leaders to account.

The *******s changed their story within 12 hours of the result!

And I hope there's hell to pay for it.

[Hannah_hfc]

Dry your eyes, you'll soon see why people are so angry. Angry that you fell for such simple lies, and angry that No voters will now disengage from the political process, by not holding your leaders to account.

The *******s changed their story within 12 hours of the result!
As I said my vote came down to one simple question: was I convinced an independent Scotland was the best option?

For me it wasn't, and I voted as such as I have every right to. No eyes needed drying here.

My vote isn't to suggest that everything is fine with Westminster. The papers are painting a story that the whole thing has been instantly dismissed by Westminster. I say with a general election coming up soon, they need to watch what moves they make and I'm waiting to see what happens over the coming months rather than have a knee jerk tantrum that alot of people are having.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Dry your eyes, you'll soon see why people are so angry. Angry that you fell for such simple lies, and angry that No voters will now disengage from the political process, by not holding your leaders to account.

The *******s changed their story within 12 hours of the result!

Agree, and when these promises of new powers don't emerge the worst thing to happen will be that the majority will just roll over and take it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;4174867]Listen to yourself. This is the worst kind of paranoid nationalism. Yes had English campaigners for Indy. Here AND in England.

Supporting independence doesn't make you a bigger patriot
than someone who doesn't, it makes you a bigger nationalist.

You do not have a monopoly on caring about Scotland and our people.[/
QUOTE]

Its just my view, and im not saying that there werent good reasons to vote no. But to claim you can be a patriot when you chose not to be a country is a contradiction.

A patriot to britain (nothing wrong with that btw if thats your view), but it is literally a contradiction to claim to love your country, and the choose to not be a country.

All imo.

[Colr]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;4174867]Listen to yourself. This is the worst kind of paranoid nationalism. Yes had English campaigners for Indy. Here AND in England.

Supporting independence doesn't make you a bigger patriot
than someone who doesn't, it makes you a bigger nationalist.

You do not have a monopoly on caring about Scotland and our people.[/
QUOTE]

Its just my view, and im not saying that there werent good reasons to vote no. But to claim you can be a patriot when you chose not to be a country is a contradiction.

A patriot to britain (nothing wrong with that btw if thats your view), but it is literally a contradiction to claim to love your country, and the choose to not be a country.

All imo.

That's not patriotism, that's nationalism.

[Scottie]

And I hope there's hell to pay for it.
No chance the subservient NO voters will be nowhere to be seen when the truth is finally out.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes sIupporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

I agree with you about the campaign, but in my view, this vote was about definitively deciding in or out, scotland or uk? We decided uk. Now of course we will all cling on to some folksy idea of scottishness, we will look at our southern cousins and poke fin, we will proclaim how different we are becsuse we have hogmanay and lochs, and they have nee year and lakes.

But it is all just folksy nostalgia now. I used to say I didnt like being british and although it said it on my passport, nobody ever asked me, it was an accident if history and of birth.

But now we have neen asked, and we collectively chose. I totally accept that result, and to me accepting it means getting on with being a ciyizen of the uk, of being british.

Real countries are getting on with joining the eu, setting up trade agreements, reshaping their futures. Countries like Croatia, czrch republic, even blooming kosovo!

Its its interesting and telling, that two of the first big consequences of our decision are a violent mob of british nationalists violently and triumphantly 'celebrating' their victory by attacking those who were defeated.

And politically, all of our eyes and our media are now gazing at westminster, to see whst power the westminster system will give us. Thats what we voted for, to look to london and see whst they will allow.

Scotland is not a country. Denying it, arguing it, claiming its toys out of tge pram makes not a jot of difference. Its simply one of the consequences of our collective decision.

[johnbc70]

Can't believe some of the over dramatic rubbish I'm reading. No longer Scotland, we're north of Britain? Toy out the pram much.

What the vote came down to is the Yes campaign not convincing over 2 million voters that they could make Scotland work independently. If 2 million people like myself were left with doubts that it wouldn't work, then the campaign failed. I understand Yes supporters are disappointed but the online reaction towards the majority of voters is disgusting.

Good summary. Disappointing to see the Yes voters being so negative to Scotland now and talking it down at every opportunity, hopefully something they will get over with time.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

[QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;4175227]

That's not patriotism, that's nationalism.

No its not.

Nationalism is thinking you are superior because of your country. I never have thought thst about Scotland. I just never saw a good reason why we had to be inferior.

[johnbc70]

Scotland is not a country. Denying it, arguing it, claiming its toys out of tge pram makes not a jot of difference. Its simply one of the consequences of our collective decision.

Sorry but a load of nonsense. Scotland was a country at the start of the week and remains a country at the end of the week. People voted for the country of Scotland to remain in the UK and not become independent.

If you believe that then are you saying we have failed to be a country since the Union was signed 300 years ago?

[DaveF]

Ok then, this is the new Scotland we just missed out on where you tell me what I really think.

Deary me, is this really the level you have fallen to?

A few posts back you slagged well off yes campaigners and immediately followed it up with a line about how labelling people as class traitors wasn't helping us move forward.

Come on ODS, it's OK to lose a discussion now and again - Us YES folks did on Thursday :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Dry your eyes, you'll soon see why people are so angry. Angry that you fell for such simple lies, and angry that No voters will now disengage from the political process, by not holding your leaders to account.

The *******s changed their story within 12 hours of the result!


Your a humpty wee thing when you get going.

We had a vote, everyone got to participate (well, apart from serving forces and Scots abroad that is - won't make that mistake again if there is a next time) and by a majority we chose to reject independence.

Any trade unionist knows that collective responsibility applies which means that not 55% but 100% get what's coming next. And that same trade unionist knows that unity is strength, which means scabbing weakens everyone.

Next business.

[One Day Soon]

Deary me, is this really the level you have fallen to?

A few posts back you slagged well off yes campaigners and immediately followed it up with a line about how labelling people as class traitors wasn't helping us move forward.

Come on ODS, it's OK to lose a discussion now and again - Us YES folks did on Thursday :wink:


You are missing my point completely.

I cannot make this any simpler. There are people who were supporting Yes and who were completely financially insulated from what would have been the harsh economic consequences of Independence. I think they were being pretty self indulgent and I think that the poorest in our country would have picked up the tab for that. However I am not calling them class traitors or anything else. Someone of a more bitter bent might choose to do so, just as someone on the Yes side might choose to call No voters sheep or traitors or some other pi5h.

My point is that while the more daft elements in this debate might want to apply labels of that sort to the other side it doesn't help or illuminate what happens next in any way.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry but a load of nonsense. Scotland was a country at the start of the week and remains a country at the end of the week. People voted for the country of Scotland to remain in the UK and not become independent.

If you believe that then are you saying we have failed to be a country since the Union was signed 300 years ago?

Pretty much, everything we've achieved has been a result of being part of the UK. Sorry, did I totally misunderstand the message that Better Together was putting out? :confused:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Your a humpty wee thing when you get going.

We had a vote, everyone got to participate (well, apart from serving forces and Scots abroad that is - won't make that mistake again if there is a next time) and by a majority we chose to reject independence.

Any trade unionist knows that collective responsibility applies which means that not 55% but 100% get what's coming next. And that same trade unionist knows that unity is strength, which means scabbing weakens everyone.

Next business.

Yeah, my cereals getting soggy. Thanks for the heads up.

[DaveF]

You are missing my point completely.

I cannot make this any simpler. There are people who were supporting Yes and who were completely financially insulated from what would have been the harsh economic consequences of Independence. I think they were being pretty self indulgent and I think that the poorest in our country would have picked up the tab for that. However I am not calling them class traitors or anything else. Someone of a more bitter bent might choose to do so, just as someone on the Yes side might choose to call No voters sheep or traitors or some other pi5h.

My point is that while the more daft elements in this debate might want to apply labels of that sort to the other side it doesn't help or illuminate what happens next in any way.

No, I get your point - I just don't agree with your take on it.

FWIW, I'm sure there are plenty of Labour and Tory supporters who are completely financially insulated from whatever decisions their political masters of choice make for the masses.

[One Day Soon]

No, I get your point - I just don't agree with your take on it.

FWIW, I'm sure there are plenty of Labour and Tory supporters who are completely financially insulated from whatever decisions their political masters of choice make for the masses.

I think that means we are in agreement in that case?

[DaveF]

I think that means we are in agreement in that case?

If it shuts you up, then aye :greengrin

There's a Hibs game coming up soon - That's far more important!

[One Day Soon]

If it shuts you up, then aye :greengrin

There's a Hibs game coming up soon - That's far more important!


Actually its probably far more depressing.

[Peevemor]

Agree, and when these promises of new powers don't emerge the worst thing to happen will be that the majority will just roll over and take it.

Only this time the 'minority' won't allow this to happen. I appreciate that emotions are currently running high, but I honestly believe that the pro-independence movement will now become bigger, more organised and more vocal than ever before.

[Leith Green]

Only this time the 'minority' won't allow this to happen. I appreciate that emotions are currently running high, but I honestly believe that the pro-independence movement will now become bigger, more organised and more vocal than ever before.


I would urge anyone who believes in Independence to join one of the political parties who backed a Yes vote. I have joined the SNP, and will continue to support them until we gain independence. I would then see what is on the table from the parties at that point before deciding what i think would suit us best as a country. That may be a proper Labour, the SNP, or something different.

[degenerated]

I would urge anyone who believes in Independence to join one of the political parties who backed a Yes vote. I have joined the SNP, and will continue to support them until we gain independence. I would then see what is on the table from the parties at that point before deciding what i think would suit us best as a country. That may be a proper Labour, the SNP, or something different.
Never thought I'd see the day, but that's exactly what I'm going to do. I'll be joining the SNP and helping to make sure this movement we've created only gets bigger and more vocal.

Saor Alba

[Leith Green]

According to SNPs twitter, they have had 4000 new members join in the last 36 hours. When the emotions of the referendum defeat calm down, people who feel strongly enough will regroup and go again.

I honestly think this is just the beginning of a journey to an independent Scotland.

[Leith Green]

I also think with the lessons learned from this campaign, and the realisation that a slightly better thought out proposal for independence would have prevailed, we will see people who were unsure decide to go for it..

I have to say Salmond will be kicking himself, having surely been surprised himself at the level of support Yes has gained. When the time comes again, the Yes campaign needs to be thought out with fine detail, and contingencies in place for everything. This may take a few years, but with way the U.K is heading, it may be a blessing in disguise.

[Gatecrasher]

According to SNPs twitter, they have had 4000 new members join in the last 36 hours. When the emotions of the referendum defeat calm down, people who feel strongly enough will regroup and go again.

I honestly think this is just the beginning of a journey to an independent Scotland.
When they come up with a solid viable plan backed up with numbers im sure plenty of people can be convinced. I tried to keep an open mind but asking questions about currency, taxes, interest rates etc and being told to wait and see after independence is voted for isnt enough for me and it seems many others as well. These thing affect the day to day lives of people and probably affected the way they voted.

Westminster has a chance to deliver a big promise to Scotland with these additional powers and could build a lot of bridges as a result. The next 6 to 12 months are huge because if there are broken promises then we will be having another independence referendum sooner rather than later.

[cabbageandribs1875]

According to SNPs twitter, they have had 4000 new members join in the last 36 hours. When the emotions of the referendum defeat calm down, people who feel strongly enough will regroup and go again.

I honestly think this is just the beginning of a journey to an independent Scotland.


and i'l be 4001 sometime this weekend, 4000 x minimum £3/month will bring in £144k, enough to start printing those yes posters for the next vote :cb


https://my.snp.org/join

[Leith Green]

When they come up with a solid viable plan backed up with numbers im sure plenty of people can be convinced. I tried to keep an open mind but asking questions about currency, taxes, interest rates etc and being told to wait and see after independence is voted for isnt enough for me and it seems many others as well. These thing affect the day to day lives of people and probably affected the way they voted.

Westminster has a chance to deliver a big promise to Scotland with these additional powers and could build a lot of bridges as a result. The next 6 to 12 months are huge because if there are broken promises then we will be having another independence referendum sooner rather than later.


I think its a bit of a catch 22 for the government here. I think if they deliver on more devolution, then the next natural step is to become fully independent. If they don't deliver on devolution then they will turn the undecideds and soft Nos towards Independence. I think the first outcome would just mean it happening more slowly , the second would be faster.

The government will be raging that they have had to make hasty offers it doesn't want to give out, i think deep down in doing so they will realise they are just delaying the inevitable.

Make no mistake here, the reason more devolution wasn't on the table was because they knew most would go for it, and where it would lead.

[johnbc70]

I also think with the lessons learned from this campaign, and the realisation that a slightly better thought out proposal for independence would have prevailed, we will see people who were unsure decide to go for it..

I have to say Salmond will be kicking himself, having surely been surprised himself at the level of support Yes has gained. When the time comes again, the Yes campaign needs to be thought out with fine detail, and contingencies in place for everything. This may take a few years, but with way the U.K is heading, it may be a blessing in disguise.

I think you could be right. I was not convinced by the Yes campaign but I don't have anything against the idea of independence itself. If there is another vote in 10/20/30 years then I am sure there are a lot of No voters who will listen to what that plans are and make their decision based on what the facts at that tine. And if the Yes can put together something that people are convinced by then we could see an iScotland.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sorry but a load of nonsense. Scotland was a country at the start of the week and remains a country at the end of the week. People voted for the country of Scotland to remain in the UK and not become independent.

If you believe that then are you saying we have failed to be a country since the Union was signed 300 years ago?

Yeah. We gave over our nationhood in the act of Union. But I always felt that we since awoken and become a nation in waiting - ready to be a country like all the others. Alas, we didn't.

How can you be a country, while at the same time be part of a larger country. US states have more power than Scotland, and they are not countries.

It is unarguable.

[lucky]

When they come up with a solid viable plan backed up with numbers im sure plenty of people can be convinced. I tried to keep an open mind but asking questions about currency, taxes, interest rates etc and being told to wait and see after independence is voted for isnt enough for me and it seems many others as well. These thing affect the day to day lives of people and probably affected the way they voted.

Westminster has a chance to deliver a big promise to Scotland with these additional powers and could build a lot of bridges as a result. The next 6 to 12 months are huge because if there are broken promises then we will be having another independence referendum sooner rather than later.

I agree 100% on both points. If the economic questions are answered including having a Scottish central bank and own currency. On the second point if Westminster fails to deliver on the promises then they will pay the price at the ballot box. If Labour fails on its part of the "vow" then I will resign my membership.

[lord bunberry]

I think you could be right. I was not convinced by the Yes campaign but I don't have anything against the idea of independence itself. If there is another vote in 10/20/30 years then I am sure there are a lot of No voters who will listen to what that plans are and make their decision based on what the facts at that tine. And if the Yes can put together something that people are convinced by then we could see an iScotland.

I'm not prepeared to wait another 10 years. Something big happened in this country in the last few months and I believe the momentum is now with the nationalists.

[Peevemor]

I'm not prepeared to wait another 10 years. Something big happened in this country in the last few months and I believe the momentum is now with the nationalists.

:agree:

[degenerated]

I'm not prepeared to wait another 10 years. Something big happened in this country in the last few months and I believe the momentum is now with the nationalists.
You won't, England will have the UK out of europe soon enough and we'll get anotherc crack at it then.

[johnbc70]

I'm not prepeared to wait another 10 years. Something big happened in this country in the last few months and I believe the momentum is now with the nationalists.

I would say it will be 10 years minimum, probably longer. Cannot see any party putting it into their manifesto for the next Scottish elections seeing as we have just had one. Maybe the next parliament after that which could be 2021 elections and a few years after that maybe. That's probably best case scenario.

[Sylar]

You won't, England will have the UK out of europe soon enough and we'll get anotherc crack at it then.

I admire your optimism but I don't believe any Tory government will allow Scotland another opportunity so soon and it'll end up becoming similar to the Catalan debate.

[Leith Green]

I admire your optimism but I don't believe any Tory government will allow Scotland another opportunity so soon and it'll end up becoming similar to the Catalan debate.

I dont think they would have a say, i saw something on Stv News the other day. The guy said Scotland will be entitled to another independence referendum under the Edinburgh agreement , if Britain votes to leave Europe..

Anyone else heard similar?

[lord bunberry]

I would say it will be 10 years minimum, probably longer. Cannot see any party putting it into their manifesto for the next Scottish elections seeing as we have just had one. Maybe the next parliament after that which could be 2021 elections and a few years after that maybe. That's probably best case scenario.
What if the SNP did really well in the upcoming general election and held the balance of power in any coalition deal. It's not out of the question that the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party could do badly next year, leaving the SNP as the only real choice.

[One Day Soon]

I'm not prepeared to wait another 10 years. Something big happened in this country in the last few months and I believe the momentum is now with the nationalists.


Well you'll have to.

John Swinney also said there would not be another Referendum for a generation yesterday morning and various other SNP spokepersons have repeated it. In addition to which we have just had a two year debate and a democratic vote. Yes lost and No won, that was the big thing that happened.The Act of Union of 1707 was just ratified by a democratic vote for the first time.

On top of that, despite all the hysterical post-match claims, the three major parties have not walked away from the commitment to legislate for more powers. There will be legislation and it will be brought forward in May 2015 after the next election. If theyr are cute they will make it stronger and broader than expected so that the scottish Parliament has to raise a much more significant proportion of what it spends. Then you get proper politics instead of the charade we have had since 1999 of parties outbidding each other on how to spend the cheque with no consequences

There's another problem here too. The SNP were at their high water mark up to this Referendum. They won't be after the next Scottish Parliament elections. The electoral system virtually guarantees that the best they will manage next time is biggest single party and possibly minority government. There is no danger there will be another referendum in the next parliament.

This was the perfect storm. Iraq, global recession, MPs expenses, Labour gutted (diretionless and poorly led), Salmond ascendant as a proper big beast politician, SNP in power and able to put off any difficult decisions and then a Tory government to point at. They will never have this perfect storm of circumstances again.

The Yes alliance will gradually if not quickly fall apart under the weight of its own contradictions as the various parties pursue their own goals. The Tories did well in the Referendum and their leader was pretty effective. They are going to start to eat back votes of theirs that have been on loan to the SNP in particular for some time.

[Leith Green]

Well you'll have to.

John Swinney also said there would not be another Referendum for a generation yesterday morning and various other SNP spokepersons have repeated it. In addition to which we have just had a two year debate and a democratic vote. Yes lost and No won, that was the big thing that happened.The Act of Union of 1707 was just ratified by a democratic vote for the first time.

On top of that, despite all the hysterical post-match claims, the three major parties have not walked away from the commitment to legislate for more powers. There will be legislation and it will be brought forward in May 2015 after the next election. If theyr are cute they will make it stronger and broader than expected so that the scottish Parliament has to raise a much more significant proportion of what it spends. Then you get proper politics instead of the charade we have had since 1999 of parties outbidding each other on how to spend the cheque with no consequences

There's another problem here too. The SNP were at their high water mark up to this Referendum. They won't be after the next Scottish Parliament elections. The electoral system virtually guarantees that the best they will manage next time is biggest single party and possibly minority government. There is no danger there will be another referendum in the next parliament.

This was the perfect storm. Iraq, global recession, MPs expenses, Labour gutted (diretionless and poorly led), Salmond ascendant as a proper big beast politician, SNP in power and able to put off any difficult decisions and then a Tory government to point at. They will never have this perfect storm of circumstances again.

The Yes alliance will gradually if not quickly fall apart under the weight of its own contradictions as the various parties pursue their own goals. The Tories did well in the Referendum and their leader was pretty effective. They are going to start to eat back votes of theirs that have been on loan to the SNP in particular for some time.

I agree that the tories will gain support on the back of this, id be amazed if the SNP didnt gain a hell of a lot of labour voters. Then add in a hell of a lot of new voters. Id be amazed if the SNP dont win a majority in the next holyrood elections

[Pretty Boy]

I agree that the tories will gain support on the back of this, id be amazed if the SNP didnt gain a hell of a lot of labour voters. Then add in a hell of a lot of new voters. Id be amazed if the SNP dont win a majority in the next holyrood elections

Too early to say imo.

The referendum, whilst obviously of utmost importance, has been a bit of a distraction from everyday politics.

The SNP now have a couple of years to prove they can run the country, or run the devolved powers at any rate.

[One Day Soon]

I agree that the tories will gain support on the back of this, id be amazed if the SNP didnt gain a hell of a lot of labour voters. Then add in a hell of a lot of new voters. Id be amazed if the SNP dont win a majority in the next holyrood elections

By the time of those elections you will be looking at new powers for the parliament enacted. You will probably also be looking at a UK Labour or Labour-led government. And the period between now and the next Scot Parl elections are going to be very difficult for the SNP.

They postponed and hid also sorts of difficult decisions and challenging issues until after the Referendum. Those chickens will be home to roost shortly and they will be doing so on the shoulders of whoever replaces Salmond - and it doesn't matter who that is, none of them are in his teflon class. The SNP are about to find out what its like to be regarded as a tarnished party of government after 7 years in office without a referendum to distract the electorate any longer.

Issue one, that half a £billion hole in the Scottish NHS budget. Issue two, the three health boards apparently close to bankruptcy (rumoured to be Lothian, Aberdeen and Argyll and Bute) discussed at the same meeting but not leaked. Issue three, the fact that the SNP have been spending less on the NHS in Scotland than the Tories. It is going to get ugly quickly.

If the Greens and SSP manage any kind of revival they will also win list seats that would otherwise be SNP. The new leader is going to begin by being associated with with a series of screw-ups and is following someone who it would be hard to match.

I don't know if the bookies are offering odds on the next SP elections yet but they could make for good pickings.

[Peevemor]

I agree that the tories will gain support on the back of this, id be amazed if the SNP didnt gain a hell of a lot of labour voters. Then add in a hell of a lot of new voters. Id be amazed if the SNP dont win a majority in the next holyrood elections

A statement from 'Labour for Independence'

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=869578786386366&id=410177615659821

These are angry people.

A beakaway Scottish Labour hook-up with the SSP anyone?

[hibsbollah]

Well you'll have to.

John Swinney also said there would not be another Referendum for a generation yesterday morning and various other SNP spokepersons have repeated it. In addition to which we have just had a two year debate and a democratic vote. Yes lost and No won, that was the big thing that happened.The Act of Union of 1707 was just ratified by a democratic vote for the first time.

On top of that, despite all the hysterical post-match claims, the three major parties have not walked away from the commitment to legislate for more powers. There will be legislation and it will be brought forward in May 2015 after the next election. If theyr are cute they will make it stronger and broader than expected so that the scottish Parliament has to raise a much more significant proportion of what it spends. Then you get proper politics instead of the charade we have had since 1999 of parties outbidding each other on how to spend the cheque with no consequences

There's another problem here too. The SNP were at their high water mark up to this Referendum. They won't be after the next Scottish Parliament elections. The electoral system virtually guarantees that the best they will manage next time is biggest single party and possibly minority government. There is no danger there will be another referendum in the next parliament.

This was the perfect storm. Iraq, global recession, MPs expenses, Labour gutted (diretionless and poorly led), Salmond ascendant as a proper big beast politician, SNP in power and able to put off any difficult decisions and then a Tory government to point at. They will never have this perfect storm of circumstances again.

The Yes alliance will gradually if not quickly fall apart under the weight of its own contradictions as the various parties pursue their own goals. The Tories did well in the Referendum and their leader was pretty effective. They are going to start to eat back votes of theirs that have been on loan to the SNP in particular for some time.

Your first four paragraphs are an acceptable analysis. But New Labour will haemorrhage votes to the SNP over the next few months at a far greater rate than the SNP will lose votes to the Tories. The post industrial working class consensus is over. Nobody knows what New Labour represents anymore because it has no idea itself.

[Pretty Boy]

A statement from 'Labour for Independence'

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=869578786386366&id=410177615659821

These are angry people.

A beakaway Scottish Labour hook-up with the SSP anyone?

They certainly don't pull any punches.

Good to see the rank and file Labour members making their voices heard. Hopefully others follow suit even if they don't share the same views on independence.

[Leith Green]

A statement from 'Labour for Independence'

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=869578786386366&id=410177615659821

These are angry people.

A beakaway Scottish Labour hook-up with the SSP anyone?


Reading the comments underneath, lots saying they are done with labour and going SNP

[OsloHibs]

I admire your optimism but I don't believe any Tory government will allow Scotland another opportunity so soon and it'll end up becoming similar to the Catalan debate.

Agree :agree:

[lord bunberry]

Well you'll have to.

John Swinney also said there would not be another Referendum for a generation yesterday morning and various other SNP spokepersons have repeated it. In addition to which we have just had a two year debate and a democratic vote. Yes lost and No won, that was the big thing that happened.The Act of Union of 1707 was just ratified by a democratic vote for the first time.

On top of that, despite all the hysterical post-match claims, the three major parties have not walked away from the commitment to legislate for more powers. There will be legislation and it will be brought forward in May 2015 after the next election. If theyr are cute they will make it stronger and broader than expected so that the scottish Parliament has to raise a much more significant proportion of what it spends. Then you get proper politics instead of the charade we have had since 1999 of parties outbidding each other on how to spend the cheque with no consequences

There's another problem here too. The SNP were at their high water mark up to this Referendum. They won't be after the next Scottish Parliament elections. The electoral system virtually guarantees that the best they will manage next time is biggest single party and possibly minority government. There is no danger there will be another referendum in the next parliament.

This was the perfect storm. Iraq, global recession, MPs expenses, Labour gutted (diretionless and poorly led), Salmond ascendant as a proper big beast politician, SNP in power and able to put off any difficult decisions and then a Tory government to point at. They will never have this perfect storm of circumstances again.

The Yes alliance will gradually if not quickly fall apart under the weight of its own contradictions as the various parties pursue their own goals. The Tories did well in the Referendum and their leader was pretty effective. They are going to start to eat back votes of theirs that have been on loan to the SNP in particular for some time.
And what if the three main party's don't deliver the promised powers, what if the SNP do win another landslide victory at the next Scottish elections(it's not completely out of the question), what if the yes alliance doesn't fall apart. You've loads of assumptions based on your opinion of what you may think will happen, I see things differently.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I dont think they would have a say, i saw something on Stv News the other day. The guy said Scotland will be entitled to another independence referendum under the Edinburgh agreement , if Britain votes to leave Europe..

Anyone else heard similar?

Aye, I saw that too. It was Lord Hennessy on Monday evening.

[MyJo]

And what if the three main party's don't deliver the promised powers, what if the SNP do win another landslide victory at the next Scottish elections(it's not completely out of the question), what if the yes alliance doesn't fall apart. You've loads of assumptions based on your opinion of what you may think will happen, I see things differently.

:agree:

SNP have gained 5000+ new members in the last 48 hours while the greens have also picked up a fair chunk of support, Its also reasonable to suggest that the 1.6m people who wanted independence included a sizeable number of first time voters who are now politically engaged and who will now be on the electoral roll and persuaded to back the pro-independence parties in future elections.

I dont expect further devolved powers to be in place for at least a couple of years if at all due to the general election and the fact westminster is full of c**ts.

[lord bunberry]

:agree:

SNP have gained 5000+ new members in the last 48 hours while the greens have also picked up a fair chunk of support, Its also reasonable to suggest that the 1.6m people who wanted independence included a sizeable number of first time voters who are now politically engaged and who will now be on the electoral roll and persuaded to back the pro-independence parties in future elections.

I dont expect further devolved powers to be in place for at least a couple of years if at all due to the general election and the fact westminster is full of c**ts.
Make that 5001, I just joined as well.

[Peevemor]

:agree:

SNP have gained 5000+ new members in the last 48 hours while the greens have also picked up a fair chunk of support, Its also reasonable to suggest that the 1.6m people who wanted independence included a sizeable number of first time voters who are now politically engaged and who will now be on the electoral roll and persuaded to back the pro-independence parties in future elections.

I dont expect further devolved powers to be in place for at least a couple of years if at all due to the general election and the fact westminster is full of c**ts.

I think that an enormous number of people of all ages have got a taste for the campaign for independence and the whole thing's going to snowball. There'll be more and more gatherings, more and more marches and greater scrutiny of what goes on at Westminster together with how it's portrayed in the media.

It's not going to go away.

[Leith Green]

Unfortunately 2014 will go down in history as the year Hibs were relegated, and Scotland voted against becoming an Independent country . This will be tough to look back on in 25 years time. Sad times!

[One Day Soon]

Your first four paragraphs are an acceptable analysis. But New Labour will haemorrhage votes to the SNP over the next few months at a far greater rate than the SNP will lose votes to the Tories. The post industrial working class consensus is over. Nobody knows what New Labour represents anymore because it has no idea itself.


That is exactly the challenge for Labour. It long since ceased to be New Labour by the way, that's pretty out of date. As to how well the SNP does in collecting Labour votes, let's just see what effect the SNP govt skeletons have before we conclude on that one. They are pretty ugly - I don't know how they justify spending less than the Tories on the NHS for example.

There hasn't been a post-industrial working class consensus for a very long time. I would argue that there is no political consensus of any sort for any of the parties including the SNP. The Scottish and British electorates are people in search of a political class and political movements they can identify with. Independence over the last two years has been a transient parking place for the disaffection of the electorate. The first to develop a compelling narrative about where we should be going and how we hould be getting there will clean up - if any of them become capable of it.

[One Day Soon]

They certainly don't pull any punches.

Good to see the rank and file Labour members making their voices heard. Hopefully others follow suit even if they don't share the same views on independence.


Don't kid yourself, these are not and never were genuine Labour Party members. Labour for Independence is a put up job designed to look like Labour members peeling away to independence. If you checked in Labour Party circles no-one had ever heard of these people inside the party.

[One Day Soon]

A statement from 'Labour for Independence'

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=869578786386366&id=410177615659821

These are angry people.

A beakaway Scottish Labour hook-up with the SSP anyone?


Well yes, if the breakaway is going to be about five men/women and a ferret. They are Labour members as much as my cat is.

[Peevemor]

Don't kid yourself, these are not and never were genuine Labour Party members. Labour for Independence is a put up job designed to look like Labour members peeling away to independence. If you checked in Labour Party circles no-one had ever heard of these people inside the party.

Genuine or not, that one statement has impressed me more than anything Labour have done since they became "new".

[One Day Soon]

And what if the three main party's don't deliver the promised powers, what if the SNP do win another landslide victory at the next Scottish elections(it's not completely out of the question), what if the yes alliance doesn't fall apart. You've loads of assumptions based on your opinion of what you may think will happen, I see things differently.


Well of course. What ifs everywhere.

However here are my odds on those things happening:

Powers delivered: 100%
Remember 1997, Labour didn't screw about on the Scottish Parliament and they won't on this. If they deliver it they hoover back vast amounts of votes and territory. Scottish Tories need to be seen to deliver to capitalise on their recent resurgence. Lib Dems probably don't really matter unless its a coalition but their Scottish MPs need to bring some bacon home.

SNP losing majority control in Scot Parl: 80%
The nature of the electoral system virtually guaranteed this would happen anyway. Tiny swings create easily enough seat changes to get rid of the SNP majority. A resurgence from any one of Labour, Tories, Lib-Dems, Greens, SSP or UKIP will cost the Nats seats. More than one gets very messy for them.

Yes falling apart: 90%
We have parties here which fundamentally disagree on policy. The SSP alone are legendary for splitting and falling out with each other, never mind everyone else. People's Front of Judea stuff. The only thing they agreed upon was Indy and that was only because the Nats were in a position to hold a Referendum. eg The Greens core policy is creating a low carbon economy. Meanwhile the SNP want a second oil boom including developing west coast fields. Hydrocarbons don't attract these two together they repel. But more fundamentally, they are competing for the same groups of voters and I can assure you that Patrick Harvie won't be wanting to see his own job or Green representation in the parliament put at risk in order to serve the SNP core policy of independence. The same goes for the SSP.

It will at least be interesting though because now we will see the advent of real politics and the examination of real policy rather than the two years spent discussing constitutional change. Time to find out who is really serious about growing our economy, creating jobs, protecting the NHS and creating real opportunity for all - do those things and you aim a dagger at the heart of poverty while delivering social justice.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labours newest party member

http://hotterthanapileofcurry.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/blinkered-sheep.jpg?w=500

[One Day Soon]

Genuine or not, that one statement has impressed me more than anything Labour have done since they became "new".


Seriously, there's nothing at all that happened under New Labour that impressed you more than a statement from a group of people pretending to represent Labour Party member views?

[One Day Soon]

Labours newest party member

http://hotterthanapileofcurry.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/blinkered-sheep.jpg?w=500

That's not telling us much, according to people like you that could be any one of 55% of Scottish voters....

[ronaldo7]

Well yes, if the breakaway is going to be about five men/women and a ferret. They are Labour members as much as my cat is.

This is the normal Labour patronising pish we're used to. Things are changing and not for the better with Scottish Labour.

[One Day Soon]

This is the normal Labour patronising pish we're used to. Things are changing and not for the better with Scottish Labour.

Oh take your Nat specs off for a minute. The failure of your side to engage with reality is a major part of why you failed to win this week. You may want to believe that these people are mainstream Labour Party members but they simply are not. But knock yourself out heading up that dead end. I'm not saying that there aren't Labour voters who will switch to the SNP, I'm simply saying that this front organisation is just that - don't get your hopes upon it.

[MyJo]

Im getting the sense that someone on this thread might be a fully paid up Labour party member.....red tinted specs and all :greengrin

[Peevemor]

Seriously, there's nothing at all that happened under New Labour that impressed you more than a statement from a group of people pretending to represent Labour Party member views?

No.

[ronaldo7]

Oh take your Nat specs off for a minute. The failure of your side to engage with reality is a major part of why you failed to win this week. You may want to believe that these people are mainstream Labour Party members but they simply are not. But knock yourself out heading up that dead end. I'm not saying that there aren't Labour voters who will switch to the SNP, I'm simply saying that this front organisation is just that - don't get your hopes upon it.

You've been told numerous times that I'm not a Nat, I am not a member of any political party, however you continue to post and state that I am. Seems you may not have liked to have people called Quisling but are happy to continue to post something which you've been told is not true.

Double standards alive and well in your house ODS or should that be IDS:rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

No.

Scottish Parliament? Windfall tax on banks to pay for modern apprenticeships? Massive increase in overseas aid? Foxhunting ban?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Im getting the sense that someone on this thread might be a fully paid up Labour party member.....red tinted specs and all :greengrin




with a bit of hypocrisy as well

[MyJo]

No.

:greengrin

[johnbc70]

While many feel aggrieved just now and may do so for some time I am afraid this will soon take a back seat to whatever is the next big 'thing' of the day is. While some will remain committed and passionate most will drift away to other things in their life.

I bet there is not even a thread about independence on here in a couple of months as people will move on to other things and get on with their lives.

[One Day Soon]

You've been told numerous times that I'm not a Nat, I am not a member of any political party, however you continue to post and state that I am. Seems you may not liked to have people called Quisling but are happy to continue to post something which you've been told is not true.

Double standards alive and well in your house ODS or should that be IDS:rolleyes:


It may come as a surprise to you but I had not registered that you are not a Nat. Remembering who is and is not a member of which party isn't I'm afraid something I keep a close eye on. And I'm happy to apologise if that offended you.

My reference was based on the comments you made and what I inferred from that. I assumed that you voted yes for independence, which I take to be pretty much the defining issue as to whether someone is a nationalist or Nat regardless of whether they are actually an SNP member. If that isn't the defining issue I don't know what is.

I assume your ODS/IDS reference is an implication that I'm a Tory because I voted No?

[One Day Soon]

Im getting the sense that someone on this thread might be a fully paid up Labour party member.....red tinted specs and all :greengrin


Yes I'm a Labour Party member - a pretty disenchanted one. Never sought to pretend otherwise. I wonder if everyone else is as open about their affiliations?

[Future17]

I'm interested to see the course that "Scottish" Labour charts over the next while until the 2016 SP elections and what results that course produces.

To be told by senior figures in Scottish Labour on Thursday that they "hoped" the working class vote did not come out and then celebrate when that appeared to be the case in Glasgow was as shocking as was it was surprising.

I've never felt an affinity to Labour, but I thought I understood Scottish history enough to understand why others do. If the former core of the Labour vote in Scotland does not see how its party acted over the last few months as a betrayal, then it's not the Labour Party I thought it was.

[ronaldo7]

It may come as a surprise to you but I had not registered that you are not a Nat. Remembering who is and is not a member of which party isn't I'm afraid something I keep a close eye on. And I'm happy to apologise if that offended you.

My reference was based on the comments you made and what I inferred from that. I assumed that you voted yes for independence, which I take to be pretty much the defining issue as to whether someone is a nationalist or Nat regardless of whether they are actually an SNP member. If that isn't the defining issue I don't know what is.

I assume your ODS/IDS reference is an implication that I'm a Tory because I voted No?

So by someone saying something bad about the Scottish Labour party they instantly become a Nat in your world. Good stuff.

I believe you voted No. Does that make you a British Nationalist? Or are you just a good old Red/Blue/Purple voter?

[MyJo]

Yes I'm a Labour Party member - a pretty disenchanted one. Never sought to pretend otherwise. I wonder if everyone else is as open about their affiliations?

If they aren't they can just be branded a Nat :wink:

[One Day Soon]

So by someone saying something bad about the Scottish Labour party they instantly become a Nat in your world. Good stuff.

I believe you voted No. Does that make you a British Nationalist? Or are you just a good old Red/Blue/Purple voter?


No, someone voting for independence makes them a nationalist in my book - and apparently in the book of all these Yes people saying that 45% of those who voted want independence.

I guess my voting No makes me - in your eyes - whatever you believe No voters to be. I don't get the Red/Blue/Purple voter reference I'm afraid.

[One Day Soon]

If they aren't they can just be branded a Nat :wink:

Well they could be I suppose, but if they've voted Yes they have pretty much outed themselves. :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

I have to be honest, there's a lot of bitterness masquerading as comment on here.

Obvious 'No's like ODS have been posting and generally it's thought-out and evidence-based. I would hope that most of the time I'm the same. Occasionally I can post a bit more from an emotional basis, i'm sure that's true of other 'No' voters too.

From the 'Yes' side there's posters who have done the same and it's been cordial but still rigorous. That's all good, with something as important as this we should be testing and challenging each other's viewpoints.

Obviously some folk are very unhappy though and a few of them are showing that by just posting insults.

That's not on in my book. For those who are doing the petty and the personal, aand it's been happening across several threads on this site, it's maybe a case of either stepping away from the keyboard or just manning up and trying to change their posts into playing the ball instead of playing the man.

[The_Exile]

No, someone voting for independence makes them a nationalist in my book


Wait, what? So not a single person who voted for independence just simply wanted a fairer country? They are all rampant nationalists who foam at the mouth waving a saltire? That's basically what you're implying.