So, summing up then (referendum)

[(((Fergus)))]

Short notice, I know, but any chance of some pithy bullet points on the undisputed pros and cons of Yes/No?

Best presentation gets my vote. Thank you.

[johnbc70]

http://youtu.be/jCLs0jv_Efk


Do as Zammo says.

[MyJo]

the pro's and cons have been debated at length on the other threads, why not have a decision and then top 3 reasons for your choice to help undecideds with thier decision rather than more debate over another thread??

---------------------------------------------------------------

Voting: Yes

Reasons:

1 - The people of Scotland need a scottish based government and parliment that has full power over our affairs in order to run the country in the way that suits and benefits the people of scotland best.

2 - I believe we have the resources and ability to not only survive as an independent country but to thrive and create a society that will be better for my children to live in rather than continuing to watch the rich get richer while ordinary people struggle.

3- I don't trust Westminster to deliver further powers in the event of a no vote and the removal of Devo Max and the negative tactics used by Better Together have put me off wanting to have anything to do with them.

[Peevemor]

The main arguments for a no vote have all been shown to be false

Shared currency - this will happen as rUK won't be able to afford not to.

Pensions - will remain, at worse, unchanged

Price rises - many retail bosses have stated that these claims are false.

More devolved powers - English MPs are already up in arms about this.

Oil running out - yes this will happen eventually but industry experts are making far higher predictions than BT (and Westminster have been lying to us about this since the 70s)

EU membership - whether or not Scotland manage an easy entrance, there's a huge anti-EU trend in England which would probably win the day in a future referendum.

Scotland has the financial, natural and, above all, human resources to go it alone. We have a different outlook to England when it comes to the NHS, education, social welfare, international affairs/conflict, etc. It's time we stand up and do things ourselves, make our own decisions and do what is best for Scotland's people.

We have the chance to construct a vibrant new country, with a Government that truly represents the Scottish electorate.

Personally I can't think of anything more uplifting.

If you're happy with how Scotland is currently governed vote no. If not, and if you have any sense of optimism, of positivity, it has to be YES.

[hibbyfrankie]

1. I beleive peoples descisions and opinions are shaped by there local experiences and hence the best people to make descisions for scotland are the people who live there.

2. I think the uk wastes too much money acting like a superpower.

3. I think the westminster government will never address the north south divide while london is on the correct side of it.

Vote yes.

[Stranraer]

A fully accountable Scottish government - a government we get based on who the people of Scotland vote for.

A wealth of opportunity at our hands, according to the FT we would be richer than the UK and in the top 20 countries globally.

Once in a lifetime opportunity to take full control of our country.

Vote Yes?

[Stranraer]

I The main arguments for a no vote have all been shown to be false

Shared currency - this will happen as rUK won't be able to afford not to.

Pensions - will remain, at worse, unchanged

Price rises - many retail bosses have stated that these claims are false.

More devolved powers - English MPs are already up in arms about this.

Oil running out - yes this will happen eventually but industry experts are making far higher predictions than BT (and Westminster have been lying to us about this since the 70s)

EU membership - whether or not Scotland manage an easy entrance, there's a huge anti-EU trend in England which would probably win the day in a future referendum.

Scotland has the financial, natural and, above all, human resources to go it alone. We have a different outlook to England when it comes to the NHS, education, social welfare, international affairs/conflict, etc. It's time we stand up and do things ourselves, make our own decisions and do what is best for Scotland's people.

We have the chance to construct a vibrant new country, with a Government that truly represents the Scottish electorate.

Personally I can't think of anything more uplifting.

If you're happy with how Scotland is currently governed vote no. If not, and if you have any sense of optimism, of positivity, it has to be YES.

Wow, excellent and inspiring post :top marksreally well said.

[johnbc70]

Bill Clinton had some good words on why you should vote No (to balance this out)

1) The proposal to keep the pound as its currency without the support that UK membership provides carries substantial risks, as we saw in the EU after the financial crisis.

2) Separation will require a long complex negotiating process with considerable uncertainty and potential to weaken the Scottish economy.

3) The increased autonomy promised Scotland by the UK provides most of the benefits of independence and avoids the downside risks.

4) Unity with maximum self-determination sends a powerful message to a world torn by identity conflicts that it is possible to respect our differences while living and working together. This is the great challenge of our time. The Scots can show us how to meet it."

[snooky]

"All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come." - Victor Hugo

[snooky]

Bill Clinton had some good words on why you should vote No (to balance this out)


1) The proposal to keep the pound as its currency without the support that UK membership provides carries substantial risks, as we saw in the EU after the financial crisis.

2) Separation will require a long complex negotiating process with considerable uncertainty and potential to weaken the Scottish economy.

3) The increased autonomy promised Scotland by the UK provides most of the benefits of independence and avoids the downside risks.

4) Unity with maximum self-determination sends a powerful message to a world torn by identity conflicts that it is possible to respect our differences while living and working together. This is the great challenge of our time. The Scots can show us how to meet it."

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877322,00.html
Aye, listen to Bill - the man's an expert. :rolleyes:

[johnbc70]

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877322,00.html
Aye, listen to Bill - the man's an expert. :rolleyes:

Ha ha I wondered how long it would take before a Yes voter would reply with the standard do not listen to him, what does he know, his opinion is not valid, blah, blah.

No bad about 7 minutes.

So how do you feel about Alex Salmond backing Fred Goodwin and his bid for ABN Ambro, offering him good luck and any support he needed. Does that make everything Salmond says rubbish? He backed and offered his full support for the takeover of ABN to the man who was largely blamed for the near collapse of the Banking system in the UK and the recession.

[snooky]

Ha ha I wondered how long it would take before a Yes voter would reply with the standard do not listen to him, what does he know, his opinion is not valid, blah, blah.

No bad about 7 minutes.

So how do you feel about Alex Salmond backing Fred Goodwin and his bid for ABN Ambro, offering him good luck and any support he needed. Does that make everything Salmond says rubbish? He backed and offered his full support for the takeover of ABN to the man who was largely blamed for the near collapse of the Banking system in the UK and the recession.

Ah ha! It's The Law of Momentum, JBC.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" :greengrin :aok:

[#FromTheCapital]

All you're going to get here is a bunch of decided yes or no voters, mainly yes on hibs.net, giving you their opinions on why they are choosing to vote the way they are. The one thing about this debate is that there is very little fact. It's really up to you to read through what you perceive to be credible sources and make your own mind up based on you and your loved ones personal circumstances.

Now for my opinion :greengrin...

There shouldn't even need to be a no campaign because the yes argument is so fundamentally flawed that I'm amazed they have picked up the supposed level of support that they have. It worries me that a nationalist party have managed to tug on the heart strings of so many Scottish people based on the illusion that the world and the uk is the same as it was 30 years ago and the romantic notion that we will decide our future alone without any input from the outside world. Salmond has split the nation in two and this will leave scars for many years to come. Make no mistake, no good can come from this vote regardless of what way it goes.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Shamefully copied. Thank you.

May your choices reflect your hopes not your fears.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Voting: Yes

Reasons:

1 - The people of Scotland need a scottish based government and parliment that has full power over our affairs in order to run the country in the way that suits and benefits the people of scotland best.

2 - I believe we have the resources and ability to not only survive as an independent country but to thrive and create a society that will be better for my children to live in rather than continuing to watch the rich get richer while ordinary people struggle.

3- I don't trust Westminster to deliver further powers in the event of a no vote and the removal of Devo Max and the negative tactics used by Better Together have put me off wanting to have anything to do with them.

[GreenLake]

Vote Yes for the new boss.

Vote No for the old boss.

The new boss is the same as the old boss - in the pocket of the international bankers.

[calumhibee1]

The main arguments for a no vote have all been shown to be false

Shared currency - this will happen as rUK won't be able to afford not to.

Pensions - will remain, at worse, unchanged

Price rises - many retail bosses have stated that these claims are false.

More devolved powers - English MPs are already up in arms about this.

Oil running out - yes this will happen eventually but industry experts are making far higher predictions than BT (and Westminster have been lying to us about this since the 70s)

EU membership - whether or not Scotland manage an easy entrance, there's a huge anti-EU trend in England which would probably win the day in a future referendum.

Scotland has the financial, natural and, above all, human resources to go it alone. We have a different outlook to England when it comes to the NHS, education, social welfare, international affairs/conflict, etc. It's time we stand up and do things ourselves, make our own decisions and do what is best for Scotland's people. We have the chance to construct a vibrant new country, with a Government that truly represents the Scottish electorate.

Personally I can't think of anything more uplifting.

If you're happy with how Scotland is currently governed vote no. If not, and if you have any sense of optimism, of positivity, it has to be YES.

:top marks

I respect everyones right to vote the way they want to, but the bit in bold is what baffles me. I've met a good few no supporters who do believe the NHS shouldn't be privatised, don't want nuclear weapons, don't want to be Americas plus one to every war, yet they're still voting no. Where is the logic in that? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

The opposite of independent is dependent.

Vote No for:

- safe and secure managed decline
- aspiration for your kids being that they move to London
- the political methadone of Barnett


Vote Yes for:

- the responsibility of running our own country
- never having anyone else to blame
- the challenge of fixing our own problems

and ... - *bonus* , perhaps our only chance ever to see what a plague of locusts actually looks like!


Time to grow up as a country, vote Yes.

[Gatecrasher]

Short notice, I know, but any chance of some pithy bullet points on the undisputed pros and cons of Yes/No?

Best presentation gets my vote. Thank you.
don't listen to any of the propoganda on here as most of it will be biased. Make your own mind up and make a vote that YOU will be happy with.

[Beefster]

don't listen to any of the propaganda on here as most of it will be biased. Make your own mind up and make a vote that YOU will be happy with.

In a nutshell.

[SanFranHibs]

don't listen to any of the propoganda on here as most of it will be biased. Make your own mind up and make a vote that YOU will be happy with.

Stop trying to influence him!! :wink:

[SanFranHibs]

A YES vote will unleash the most dangerous thing of all.....HOPE!

Source: George Monbiot - Guardian.

[WeeRussell]

Bill Clinton had some good words on why you should vote No (to balance this out)

1) The proposal to keep the pound as its currency without the support that UK membership provides carries substantial risks, as we saw in the EU after the financial crisis.

2) Separation will require a long complex negotiating process with considerable uncertainty and potential to weaken the Scottish economy.

3) The increased autonomy promised Scotland by the UK provides most of the benefits of independence and avoids the downside risks.

4) Unity with maximum self-determination sends a powerful message to a world torn by identity conflicts that it is possible to respect our differences while living and working together. This is the great challenge of our time. The Scots can show us how to meet it."

Seriously... these are the strongest points for a NO vote?

1) There is uncertainty.. this is a completely new thing for our country. Like every other country that has gained independence... we are more than capable of managing it effectively.
2) We shouldn't do it because it will take a bit of time and complicated work? I'll stop there.
3) Even if you had a shred of belief in these promises... you haven't convinced me (as above) that these "downside risks" are really all that! and "increased autonomy" doesn't come near to the benefits of independence. It's patronising.
4) You want us to abandon our opportunity of independence because it will send a messages that we can be pals with our neighbours?

[JeMeSouviens]

Seriously... these are the strongest points for a NO vote?

1) There is uncertainty.. this is a completely new thing for our country. Like every other country that has gained independence... we are more than capable of managing it effectively.
2) We shouldn't do it because it will take a bit of time and complicated work? I'll stop there.
3) Even if you had a shred of belief in these promises... you haven't convinced me (as above) that these "downside risks" are really all that! and "increased autonomy" doesn't come near to the benefits of independence. It's patronising.
4) You want us to abandon our opportunity of independence because it will send a messages that we can be pals with our neighbours?

:agree:

I'm pals with my neighbours. I don't give them my salary and ask for pocket money though.

[Beefster]

:agree:

I'm pals with my neighbours. I don't give them my salary and ask for pocket money though.

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

[CapitalGreen]

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

Don't lie, she decides :-P

[JimBHibees]

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

Is your pocket money divvied as per Barnett? :greengrin

[MyJo]

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

Does mrs beefster buy expensive handbags and shoes out of the shared money even though you don't need or want £2000 high heels then not only doesn't use them but insists on keeping them In your cupboard because they would make her cupboard messy?

[hibsbollah]

:top marks

I respect everyones right to vote the way they want to, but the bit in bold is what baffles me. I've met a good few no supporters who do believe the NHS shouldn't be privatised, don't want nuclear weapons, don't want to be Americas plus one to every war, yet they're still voting no. Where is the logic in that? :confused:

The logic is that while an independent Scotland makes those things less likely, it doesn't mean it won't happen. It is very possible that after voting for independence, Scotland moves further to the Right, world events whether continued market dominance of world financial institutions or middle east instability might mean Trident is still here in ten years, the private sector is all over our state resources and austerity is a continuing reality.

Independence. Its not a panacea for those wanting a more left wing future. But it probably helps.

[WeeRussell]

Does mrs beefster buy expensive handbags and shoes out of the shared money even though you don't need or want £2000 high heels then not only doesn't use them but insists on keeping them In your cupboard because they would make her cupboard messy?

Does Mrs Beefster get caught lying and cheating on you time and time again? Ever thought about leaving her but she tells you you aren't capable of making it on your own and gets her best pals to tell you they won't speak to you either if you do? Mrs Beefster really cares about you and will change her ways.. but remember if you leave, there's no crawling back to Mrs Beefster.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does Mrs Beefster get caught lying and cheating on you time and time again? Ever thought about leaving her but she tells you you aren't capable of making it on your own and gets her best pals to tell you they won't speak to you either if you do? Mrs Beefster really cares about you and will change her ways.. but remember if you leave, there's no crawling back to Mrs Beefster.

Mrs. Beefster is in a "club" wth some swarthy European types.

She wants to be in charge, but they won't let her. So she's going to dump them all, and cuddle up in her own cosy wee world with Mr. Beefster.

If he still wants her by then. :cb

[RyeSloan]

Mrs. Beefster is in a "club" wth some swarthy European types. She wants to be in charge, but they won't let her. So she's going to dump them all, and cuddle up in her own cosy wee world with Mr. Beefster. If he still wants her by then. :cb

Not sure all European types are swarthy!!

Anyway I think we should leave Mrs Beefster alone now....

[Beefster]

I'm going to get such a slap when I get home...

[MyJo]

I'm going to get such a slap when I get home...

:tee hee: so mrs beefster IS voting yes then

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm going to get such a slap when I get home...

Vote yes, and we won't tell her about all of this. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm going to get such a slap when I get home...

I hesitate to bring this up, but is Mrs Beefster 11 times your size?

[Beefster]

I hesitate to bring this up, but is Mrs Beefster 11 times your size?

Looks like I'll not be the only one getting a slap when she sees this.

[MyJo]

I hesitate to bring this up, but is Mrs Beefster 11 times your size?

:faf:

[ballengeich]

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

If the UK was like your marriage and divided things up based on need the case for independence wouldn't be so strong.

[(((Fergus)))]

Shared currency - this will happen as rUK won't be able to afford not to.

EU membership - whether or not Scotland manage an easy entrance, there's a huge anti-EU trend in England which would probably win the day in a future referendum.



I'd like to know more about this currency issue. What would be pressure on rUK?

As for EU, why would we want to step out of a union with the UK and into a union with EU, an entity that includes the UK?

What powers would Westminster have over a "devo-plus" Scotland compared with Brussels over an independent Scotland in the EU?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd like to know more about this currency issue. What would be pressure on rUK?

As for EU, why would we want to step out of a union with the UK and into a union with EU, an entity that includes the UK?

What powers would Westminster have over a "devo-plus" Scotland compared with Brussels over an independent Scotland in the EU?

Trying to be on the fence to answer the currency question:-

The "offer" from the SNP is to share in the assets and liabilities of the UK. That means taking on some of the debt, in return for some of the assets and, by extension, a currency union.

If UK says No, then iS could walk away from, at least part of, the debt. That leaves rUK with all of the debt, and less tax revenue to service it. That might not play too well with voters in an election year.

It would be a brave politician who would take that step.

[(((Fergus)))]

Trying to be on the fence to answer the currency question:-

The "offer" from the SNP is to share in the assets and liabilities of the UK. That means taking on some of the debt, in return for some of the assets and, by extension, a currency union.

If UK says No, then iS could walk away from, at least part of, the debt. That leaves rUK with all of the debt, and less tax revenue to service it. That might not play too well with voters in an election year.


It would be a brave politician who would take that step.


How could an independent Scotland in good conscience walk away from a debt that it helped create and would continue to benefit from?

The value of sterling on the other hand would rise/fall immediately after separation to reflect new status quo, no?

PS: Wouldn't it be fair to say that successive UK governments, not least this last Labour one, went on their spending sprees on the basis that oil revenue would cover at least part of the interest payable?

[CropleyWasGod]

How could an independent Scotland in good conscience walk away from a debt that it helped create and would continue to benefit from?

The value of sterling on the other hand would rise/fall immediately after separation to reflect new status quo, no?

I purposely used the word "could" rather than "would". I'm trying to give a balanced view of the possibilities, which is what the OP wanted.

[(((Fergus)))]

I purposely used the word "could" rather than "would". I'm trying to give a balanced view of the possibilities, which is what the OP wanted.

Sure, so one thing we might expect from a new and more accountable Scottish government is that it might do a fly-by-night on the debt for stuff we are all still using??

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm in a union with Mrs Beefster. We pool our salaries, pay the bills and divvy up the rest based on need.

I love an analogy, me.

Same as me and Mrs. fleece, and everything left over goes into a fund for the future rather than be spent on vanity projects like HS2

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd like to know more about this currency issue. What would be pressure on rUK?

As for EU, why would we want to step out of a union with the UK and into a union with EU, an entity that includes the UK?

What powers would Westminster have over a "devo-plus" Scotland compared with Brussels over an independent Scotland in the EU?

A quick google for "UK current account deficit" should fill you in, eg.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/07/29/does-britains-current-account-deficit-matter/


The U.K.’s balance of payments has deteriorated massively over the past few years. In 2011, the deficit was equivalent to 1.5% of GDP. Last year it ballooned to 4.5% of a larger GDP.

Take away Scotland and it jumps by another couple of %, primarily because of oil exports.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sure, so one thing we might expect from a new and more accountable Scottish government is that it might do a fly-by-night on the debt for stuff we are all still using??

I didn't say we "might expect". I am saying that it is a bargaining chip, just as Trident is, just as the currency union is, just as everything that is on the table is.

How important these issues are, and how they would play out, depends on what side of the fence one is on. For the purposes of the OP's question, and he is genuinely seeking guidance, I'm trying to sit on it.

[MyJo]

How could an independent Scotland in good conscience walk away from a debt that it helped create and would continue to benefit from?

The value of sterling on the other hand would rise/fall immediately after separation to reflect new status quo, no?

PS: Wouldn't it be fair to say that successive UK governments, not least this last Labour one, went on their spending sprees on the basis that oil revenue would cover at least part of the interest payable?

The SNP have already said they are going to pay Scotland's share of the national debt if we end up being independent and as far as i am aware havent threatened not to pay it (other advisers or yes campaigners have suggested it though)

The arrangement would see the debt continue to be held by rUK and Scotland paying thier share towards it, which means its rUK that would be liable for the debt and there would be no way of them enforcing Scotland to pay for it and could not be considered as Scotland defaulting on thier debt because we would have none.
The UK could probably place sanctions or take legal action against the scottish government for repayment but there is no legal obligation to pay on our part.

That and the additional transaction costs incurred for anyone in rUK buying stuff from scotland (specifically Dave's pals in ASDA & Morrisons who stock Scottish meat, Salmon, spring water, whiskey etc)if we are using a different currency is why the "no currency union" line is IMO a massive bluff.

[heretoday]

The sooner it's all over the better. Roll on Friday.

[jonty]

The main arguments for a no vote have all been shown to be false

Shared currency - this will happen as rUK won't be able to afford not to.

Pensions - will remain, at worse, unchanged

Price rises - many retail bosses have stated that these claims are false.

More devolved powers - English MPs are already up in arms about this.

Oil running out - yes this will happen eventually but industry experts are making far higher predictions than BT (and Westminster have been lying to us about this since the 70s)

EU membership - whether or not Scotland manage an easy entrance, there's a huge anti-EU trend in England which would probably win the day in a future referendum.

Scotland has the financial, natural and, above all, human resources to go it alone. We have a different outlook to England when it comes to the NHS, education, social welfare, international affairs/conflict, etc. It's time we stand up and do things ourselves, make our own decisions and do what is best for Scotland's people.

We have the chance to construct a vibrant new country, with a Government that truly represents the Scottish electorate.

Personally I can't think of anything more uplifting.

If you're happy with how Scotland is currently governed vote no. If not, and if you have any sense of optimism, of positivity, it has to be YES.

Sums it up for me. Pinched :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Sure, so one thing we might expect from a new and more accountable Scottish government is that it might do a fly-by-night on the debt for stuff we are all still using??

Only if the rest UK refuse to give us our share of the assets.

We get 10% of the assets and take 10% of the debt, they only give us 2.3% of the assets then we only accept 2.3% of the debt.

They can't have their cake AND eat it.