Ukraine Crisis

[Monopolyguy]

The whole situation going on in Ukraine makes me very nervous. And with all the back and forth rhetoric between Russia and the west it's like The cold war all over again.

I've not decided where i stand on Ukraine and Putin because i've not really looked in to it enough, but it's getting pretty scary.

Not sure if I should be heading for the hills in the next few days, or if it's all just piss and wind and will blow over eventually.

Would like to hear some views from more intelligent and enlightened Hibbys.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Nothing to add politics wise, its a great shame whats went on in Ukraine recently though, we stayed in a hotel on Independence Square in Kiev either side of a couple days in Dnipro and it was a fantastic trip, it was horrible to see what has gone on around about there in the recent past as it such a beautiful city and cannae wait to go back for a third time. Wouldnae be heading to Donetsk anytime soon though!

[Hibrandenburg]

Every day that goes by reinforces Putin that he can do what the he'll he likes. There's so many parallels to what's happening in the Ukraine now and the time leading up to the outbreak of WW2 that I've got to ask "have we really learnt anything?"

[DH1875]

Might sound out of order here but forget Putin, Russia or the Ukraine. My worry is ISIS and what's happening in the middle east. I fear the problems there will have a far more reaching effect on us all.
Still think if Russia had anything to do with that plane getting shot down though that more should have happened.

[YetholmHibee]

Ukraine situation has been manufactured by the Central Bankers (USA, UK, EU, NATO and Israel) - the worlds biggest terrorists group (?)

Remember last year, Putin stood up to the New World Order and their planned to attack on Syria - to steal gas, oil and other resources.

Putin said NO - would not give the UN permission to invade Syria.

So we have the Zionists (UK, USA, NATO, EU and Israel) working together to 'get' Putin back - the propaganda against the Russian leader is getting funny now (?)

Ukraine is being used to manipulate the 3rd world war (?) - but Putin's patience is strong.

Russia and China are moving away from the American dollar quickly (like other countries) - to crash the corrupt Zionist Central Banking system (?)

And the Central Bankers need the war to kick off very very soon - to cover up the corrupt and collapsing Financial system . . . . . (?)

ALL WARS ARE BANKERS WARS!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-0BPMwgKNA

NATO meeting in Wales very soon to plan World War 3 (?)

[hibsbollah]

Putin is a tyrant, undoubtedly. Theres a civil war going on in Ukraine that Russia has a clear imperial interest in. But I have yet to see any actual evidence, or even a claim that any evidence exists, that Russian troops or tanks 'invaded' Ukraine at the weekend, as we've been told. The Lithuanian leader was ranting about how 'in real terms, Europe has been invaded by Russia'. Ridiculous North Korea esque hyperbole. Until theres proper evidence, I have the suspicion that we are being bounced into some sort of conflict by people with something to gain.

[hibsbollah]

http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html?m=1#more

[RyeSloan]

http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html?m=1#more

That link assumes Russia invaded Ukraine in a conventional manner. In fact it's rather infantile in its approach.

Putin knows full well how to support the separatists and will do so as much as possible without launching a full scale attack. Of course if he wanted to his armed forces would roll into Ukraine as the link states but that would provoke a huge backlash...much better to do so a covertly as possible, help supply and support the separatists where he can and of course use the fog of war to do more when possible.

The Ukrainian armed forces were clearly making progress against the insurgency yet in recent days that seems to have reversed so somewhat...I struggle to believe that's happened without the insurgents getting further assistance from their main sponsor.

[hibsbollah]

That link assumes Russia invaded Ukraine in a conventional manner. In fact it's rather infantile in its approach.

Putin knows full well how to support the separatists and will do so as much as possible without launching a full scale attack. Of course if he wanted to his armed forces would roll into Ukraine as the link states but that would provoke a huge backlash...much better to do so a covertly as possible, help supply and support the separatists where he can and of course use the fog of war to do more when possible.

The Ukrainian armed forces were clearly making progress against the insurgency yet in recent days that seems to have reversed so somewhat...I struggle to believe that's happened without the insurgents getting further assistance from their main sponsor.

I don't think there's any doubt that Putin is 'assisting' the anti government forces in Ukraine. Its what you'd expect from all those ex KGB goons (or ex CIA or MI6 goons probably if we were talking about Obamas or Camerons neighbours). What is not clear is why suddenly the US and the EU are ratcheting up the tension by talking about an 'invasion' and 'reaching a point of no return' to war :dunno: It was surreal. And the media seems to be following along. Fiona Bruce actually said 'Russias invasion of Ukraine' last night as if it was established fact. Theres a big difference between invasion and covert assistance.

[RyeSloan]

I don't think there's any doubt that Putin is 'assisting' the anti government forces in Ukraine. Its what you'd expect from all those ex KGB goons (or ex CIA or MI6 goons probably if we were talking about Obamas or Camerons neighbours). What is not clear is why suddenly the US and the EU are ratcheting up the tension by talking about an 'invasion' and 'reaching a point of no return' to war :dunno: It was surreal. And the media seems to be following along. Fiona Bruce actually said 'Russias invasion of Ukraine' last night as if it was established fact. Theres a big difference between invasion and covert assistance.

I get you, the language has indeed been turned up but I suppose that's probably because Russia's 'assistance' has as well.

Sure I'm not in Ukraine and clearly there is an East meets West thing on the go here but none the less the indications are that Russia is turning up the dial in terms if what it is doing in Ukraine. That may not be a conventional tanks rolling over the border invasion but of men and materiel crossing from Russia to Ukraine. If some of that is either Russian supplied weaponry or special forces or 'irregular' forces then I reckon if I was Ukrainian I would be calling that an invasion.

We are getting close to a proxy war being fought right on the doorstep of the EU..I can therefore see why the rhetoric is being stepped up..not saying I agree 100% with it all but I can see why.

[PeeJay]

Ukraine situation has been manufactured by the Central Bankers (USA, UK, EU, NATO and Israel) - the worlds biggest terrorists group (?)

Remember last year, Putin stood up to the New World Order and their planned to attack on Syria - to steal gas, oil and other resources.

Putin said NO - would not give the UN permission to invade Syria.

So we have the Zionists (UK, USA, NATO, EU and Israel) working together to 'get' Putin back - the propaganda against the Russian leader is getting funny now (?)

Ukraine is being used to manipulate the 3rd world war (?) - but Putin's patience is strong.

Russia and China are moving away from the American dollar quickly (like other countries) - to crash the corrupt Zionist Central Banking system (?)

And the Central Bankers need the war to kick off very very soon - to cover up the corrupt and collapsing Financial system . . . . . (?)

ALL WARS ARE BANKERS WARS!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-0BPMwgKNA

NATO meeting in Wales very soon to plan World War 3 (?)

We lost to a bunch of part-timers on Saturday and it spoiled the weekend for me, but your post has made me laugh again - cheers - hilarious! :faf:

[lord bunberry]

Ukraine situation has been manufactured by the Central Bankers (USA, UK, EU, NATO and Israel) - the worlds biggest terrorists group (?)

Remember last year, Putin stood up to the New World Order and their planned to attack on Syria - to steal gas, oil and other resources.

Putin said NO - would not give the UN permission to invade Syria.

So we have the Zionists (UK, USA, NATO, EU and Israel) working together to 'get' Putin back - the propaganda against the Russian leader is getting funny now (?)

Ukraine is being used to manipulate the 3rd world war (?) - but Putin's patience is strong.

Russia and China are moving away from the American dollar quickly (like other countries) - to crash the corrupt Zionist Central Banking system (?)

And the Central Bankers need the war to kick off very very soon - to cover up the corrupt and collapsing Financial system . . . . . (?)

ALL WARS ARE BANKERS WARS!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-0BPMwgKNA

NATO meeting in Wales very soon to plan World War 3 (?)

Meanwhile back in the real world....

[QMU-1875]

The Russian Armed Forces have been supplying the terrorists in the East of Ukraine for months. The reason for a step up in rhetoric is that the Kremlin has stepped up its support after sensing defeat. The Ukrainian army had encircled Donetsk and made serious gains in Luhansk. By opening a new fron in the South East the Russians were able to divert attention from the liberation of Donetsk to stopping the loss of Mariupol. There is no question that this new front is a solely Russian entity; they have highly sophisticated weaponry that the Ukrainian army does not have access to. This is an invasion, just not one of full scale. A ceasefire would be beneficial for all and this war must be stopped. The current leader of the terrorist organisation "DNR" has stated that he would prefer now to remain part of Ukraine but be given special status. This is due to losing a lot of support in recent months after the people of Donetsk realised that they system in Ukraine was far better than living under a Russian regime where torture and public execution had become common place. I hope that there is a ceasefire that lasts and that the DNR/LNR see sense and allow the region to vote fairly on its future rather than the rigged referendum earlier (those large crowds were produced by only putting 4 polling booths in many large cities, a turnout of a couple hundred thousand is not much in a region of 6 million). This new referendum should be observed by both the OSCE and Russia and ask the question Should the Donbas receive special status/ federalisation or remain part of a Central Governance System." Today is a big step in this conflict, I hope it ends soon.

[hibsbollah]

By opening a new front in the South East the Russians were able to divert attention from the liberation of Donetsk to stopping the loss of Mariupol. There is no question that this new front is a solely Russian entity; they have highly sophisticated weaponry that the Ukrainian army does not have access to. This is an invasion, just not one of full scale

I'm not sure what this means :dunno: its not a 'new front' forced by the Russian Army because the Russian army isnt there. Whats an invasion 'not of full scale?' Either its an invasion (according to the BBC etal) or (an 'attack' NATO chief Rasmussen yesterday) or it isnt. When the Nazis annexed the Sudentenland or the Serbs went into Srebenica or countless wars when one nation state has faced off against another nation state there are clear movement of forces, reported by sources on the ground, that gives us evidence. There just isnt any evidence of anything that would justify the war footing that seems to be part of yesterday's hysteria from Celtic Lakes. Its a civil war, and its time that the western media acknowledged that Eastern Ukraine is split, and that the majority probably DO want to part of Russia. Its much more complicated than the way its being portrayed; as a straightforward invasion of a sovereign state. Its as if a complex situation (like say Ulster in the 70s) was being distilled down to a goodies v baddies dynamic. And if Moscow is providing weapons to the pro Russian side in the civil war (which seems highly likely) that's no different to what every industrialised country with an arms industry does anywhere in the world. (Let alone involving a civil war on their own border).

The longer this goes on, the more safe the cold war era seems. It certainly had calmer rhetoric most of the time.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/strengthening-the-nato-alliance-article-by-david-cameron-and-barack-obama

Its all very ominous. And a lot of the 'facts' that back up the new military build up are arguable at best.

[HappyAsHellas]

It tells everyone to increase their defence budgets, whilst the east European nations are terrified of Russia pulling the plug on their vehicle sales and imports. At the same time the EU is being asked by countries like Greece, Italy etc for hundreds of millions because of Russia cancelling fruit and veg contracts. America and Britain will undoubtedly sell more arms, but wouldn't it have been cheaper and more effective to financially support the Ukranian government when we could have. Could we not have stopped this whole situation with a bit of goodwill, instead of taking a gamble?

[hibsbollah]

http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/putin-to-western-elites-play-time-is.html?m=1#more

nteresting (but very long) speech by Putin. Strangely not covered by the western media. On balance I'd say he has shown restraint over Ukraine.

[Hibs Class]

http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/putin-to-western-elites-play-time-is.html?m=1#more

nteresting (but very long) speech by Putin. Strangely not covered by the western media. On balance I'd say he has shown restraint over Ukraine.

Is your assessment serious or tongue in cheek?

[hibsbollah]

Is your assessment serious or tongue in cheek?

Seriously. I don't like the man one bit. But most of the world expected direct invasion by now.

[Hibs Class]

Seriously. I don't like the man one bit. But most of the world expected direct invasion by now.

I'm not sure I'd characterise him not invading as restraint....maybe the non-invasion has been less unrestrained, but I don't think Putin has been a positive influence on the Ukraine at all, and he has been a significant factor in the misery and suffering that the country is currently experiencing. Invasion is not the only want to destabilise a country, and his support for the rebels has been hugely destructive. He earns no plaudits.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure I'd characterise him not invading as restraint....maybe the non-invasion has been less unrestrained, but I don't think Putin has been a positive influence on the Ukraine at all, and he has been a significant factor in the misery and suffering that the country is currently experiencing. Invasion is not the only want to destabilise a country, and his support for the rebels has been hugely destructive. He earns no plaudits.

The indisputable fact remains that There is a majority of Russians living in Eastern Ukraine who want to be part of Russia. These people aren't stooges of Putin, they just genuinely don't want to be part of Ukraine. Pretending that this civil war is solely down to Russian aggression just doesn't wash. Neither does ignoring the historical context, that Ukraine was part of 'Russia' until relatively recently and NATOs courting of Ukraine and the economic implications of Russia losing their traditional sphere of influence. Few major powers would tolerate this right on their doorstep. It's important to see these kind of events through different points of view.

[QMU-1875]

I'm not sure what this means :dunno: its not a 'new front' forced by the Russian Army because the Russian army isnt there. Whats an invasion 'not of full scale?' Either its an invasion (according to the BBC etal) or (an 'attack' NATO chief Rasmussen yesterday) or it isnt. When the Nazis annexed the Sudentenland or the Serbs went into Srebenica or countless wars when one nation state has faced off against another nation state there are clear movement of forces, reported by sources on the ground, that gives us evidence. There just isnt any evidence of anything that would justify the war footing that seems to be part of yesterday's hysteria from Celtic Lakes. Its a civil war, and its time that the western media acknowledged that Eastern Ukraine is split, and that the majority probably DO want to part of Russia. Its much more complicated than the way its being portrayed; as a straightforward invasion of a sovereign state. Its as if a complex situation (like say Ulster in the 70s) was being distilled down to a goodies v baddies dynamic. And if Moscow is providing weapons to the pro Russian side in the civil war (which seems highly likely) that's no different to what every industrialised country with an arms industry does anywhere in the world. (Let alone involving a civil war on their own border).

The longer this goes on, the more safe the cold war era seems. It certainly had calmer rhetoric most of the time.

The only way the "separatists" could get tp mariupol was by crossing the Russian brder as previously the land surrounding Mariupol was in the hands of the Ukraninans. The Russian army has actively sent personnel and arms into the east of Ukraine, this is an invasion. The difference between the support that UK and America have given in these kind of situations is that they have not denied it so vehemently.

[QMU-1875]

The indisputable fact remains that There is a majority of Russians living in Eastern Ukraine who want to be part of Russia. These people aren't stooges of Putin, they just genuinely don't want to be part of Ukraine. Pretending that this civil war is solely down to Russian aggression just doesn't wash. Neither does ignoring the historical context, that Ukraine was part of 'Russia' until relatively recently and NATOs courting of Ukraine and the economic implications of Russia losing their traditional sphere of influence. Few major powers would tolerate this right on their doorstep. It's important to see these kind of events through different points of view.

What is the point you are trying to make here? Lets say a street in Leith has a majority of Polish in it and they want that street to become Polish should they be allowed to do so? No, this is soveriegn land of the Ukraine and until Russian propaganda started claiming that the Ukrainian government had implemented anti-Russian laws (they hadnt) the Donbas was very much Ukrainian. Do you remember the scenes during the Ukraine vs England game in Euro 2012 in Donetsk? These people have been brainwashed by serious propaganda and I am still not convinced that the majority ever wanted to separate from the Ukraine. A poll taken during the aftermath of Euromaidan showed this in the Donbas. It is now fact that Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula and that they messed with the actual result inflating it to more than it actually was. If the Ukrainian people and the Tatars in Crimea has actually voted the referendum there would actually have lost. Check your facts, these people ARE stooges of Putin and unfortunately many Russian soldiers are dieing as a result of Putin's aggression.

[hibsbollah]

What is the point you are trying to make here? Lets say a street in Leith has a majority of Polish in it and they want that street to become Polish should they be allowed to do so? No, this is soveriegn land of the Ukraine and until Russian propaganda started claiming that the Ukrainian government had implemented anti-Russian laws (they hadnt) the Donbas was very much Ukrainian. Do you remember the scenes during the Ukraine vs England game in Euro 2012 in Donetsk? These people have been brainwashed by serious propaganda and I am still not convinced that the majority ever wanted to separate from the Ukraine. A poll taken during the aftermath of Euromaidan showed this in the Donbas. It is now fact that Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula and that they messed with the actual result inflating it to more than it actually was. If the Ukrainian people and the Tatars in Crimea has actually voted the referendum there would actually have lost. Check your facts, these people ARE stooges of Putin and unfortunately many Russian soldiers are dieing as a result of Putin's aggression.

I'll ignore the Poles in Leith analogy because it doesn't really make sense. I think its helpful to clarify this; you appear to be believe that the entire pro Russian movement in Eastern Ukraine is being stirred up solely by Putin and his supporters, and the poor people in Eastern Ukraine are actually being brainwashed, which explains the high level of support the pro-Russian side is clearly receiving? If that is really what you believe it is reductivist and naive. To answer your question, if I am trying to make a 'point' it is probably this: it is generally a bad idea when describing a civil war based on ethnic religious or nationalistic differences, to paint one side as the sole aggressor and the other as the sole oppressed. It is reducing the argument to black v white. In this case it is inaccurate, and it also ignores the massive geopolitical implications.

[RyeSloan]

I'll ignore the Poles in Leith analogy because it doesn't really make sense. I think its helpful to clarify this; you appear to be believe that the entire pro Russian movement in Eastern Ukraine is being stirred up solely by Putin and his supporters, and the poor people in Eastern Ukraine are actually being brainwashed, which explains the high level of support the pro-Russian side is clearly receiving? If that is really what you believe it is reductivist and naive. To answer your question, if I am trying to make a 'point' it is probably this: it is generally a bad idea when describing a civil war based on ethnic religious or nationalistic differences, to paint one side as the sole aggressor and the other as the sole oppressed. It is reducing the argument to black v white. In this case it is inaccurate, and it also ignores the massive geopolitical implications.

While you ignore the massive implications of Putin backing the rebels with men and weapons which is clearly designed to encourage a deadly 'civil war' and thus destabilise a region for his own ends?

[HappyAsHellas]

Are these the same people who's votes were not substantial enough to remove Yanukovych, in breach of Ukranian law?
Or am I being too simplistic?

[hibsbollah]

While you ignore the massive implications of Putin backing the rebels with men and weapons which is clearly designed to encourage a deadly 'civil war' and thus destabilise a region for his own ends?

I haven't ignored it, I agreed earlier in the thread that the supplying of arms was probably happening. But selling folk arms and doing a bit of covert destabilisation hardly breaks the Geneva Convention. The 'west' gets involved in that sort of shenanigans all the time.

[RyeSloan]

I haven't ignored it, I agreed earlier in the thread that the supplying of arms was probably happening. But selling folk arms and doing a bit of covert destabilisation hardly breaks the Geneva Convention. The 'west' gets involved in that sort of shenanigans all the time.

'Probably happening'

'A bit of covert destabilisation'

Really? That's how you describe Putins actions in Ukraine? Yer not one for understatement normally 'bollah so why the case now?

[hibsbollah]

I don't see any evidence of anything worse going on. No invasion, no tanks, no death squads, no grabbing back a piece of Mother Russia that they've lost to NATO. And I think we're being fed a simplified line by the bbc and the rest. If theres any credible links with evidence of anything worse going on that anyone wants to post id be interested to read them.

[lord bunberry]

I don't see any evidence of anything worse going on. No invasion, no tanks, no death squads, no grabbing back a piece of Mother Russia that they've lost to NATO. And I think we're being fed a simplified line by the bbc and the rest. If theres any credible links with evidence of anything worse going on that anyone wants to post id be interested to read them.
Where did the missile that shot down the Malaysian plane come from? And who trained them to use it. I agree that we get a very one sided view from our media, especially events surrounding the overthrowing of the democratically elected Ukrainian government, but without troops and weapons from Russia the rebels would've been crushed fairly quickly.

[hibsbollah]

Where did the missile that shot down the Malaysian plane come from?

Good question. 'Ukrainian sources' said the missile was fired from 'pro'russian held territory'. The BBC then quoted this as fact and proceeded to show in screen the kind of rocket launchers that the Russian army uses, with the innuendo very clear; the Russians did it. But we were also told that territory is getting lost and taken very quickly, so I don't know how the independent verifiers who didn't get to the crash site till many days later (again, pro Russian fighters were blamed for this, but we don't really know for sure) could have been expected to verify who's territory it was fired from, and of course in a war zone there is lots of weaponry all over the place. The weaponry could just as easily have come from a western direction from some rogue elements. Im not saying it did, we just dont know.

And of course, no one benefits politically or militarily from shooting down an airliner, so it was either a mistaken target, someone not trained to use the guidance system, or a daftie on the vodka or a combination of both. But the whole episode just showed how the BBC especially are making supposition out of circumstantial evidence.

[lord bunberry]

Good question. 'Ukrainian sources' said the missile was fired from 'pro'russian held territory'. The BBC then quoted this as fact and proceeded to show in screen the kind of rocket launchers that the Russian army uses, with the innuendo very clear; the Russians did it. But we were also told that territory is getting lost and taken very quickly, so I don't know how the independent verifiers who didn't get to the crash site till many days later (again, pro Russian fighters were blamed for this, but we don't really know for sure) could have been expected to verify who's territory it was fired from, and of course in a war zone there is lots of weaponry all over the place. The weaponry could just as easily have come from a western direction from some rogue elements. Im not saying it did, we just dont know.

And of course, no one benefits politically or militarily from shooting down an airliner, so it was either a mistaken target, someone not trained to use the guidance system, or a daftie on the vodka or a combination of both. But the whole episode just showed how the BBC especially are making supposition out of circumstantial evidence.

The pro Russian forces had already been responsible for shooting down Ukrainian military planes with the same weapon that was used to shoot down the Malaysian plane. These are very sophisticated weapons that couldn't be operated without training, certainly not by a daftie on the vodka.

[hibsbollah]

The pro Russian forces had already been responsible for shooting down Ukrainian military planes with the same weapon that was used to shoot down the Malaysian plane. These are very sophisticated weapons that couldn't be operated without training, certainly not by a daftie on the vodka.

Yes I know. Its called the BUK and its the most advanced SAM in the world and its Russian made. However its also been exported all over the world and the Ukrainian army uses it too. It was used by both sides in the Georgia-Russia conflict in 2008. So in simple terms, it's widely available.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysian-airlines-plane-buk-missile

I haven't seen a report saying that the same weapon shot down other (ukrainian) planes, have you got a link?

[lord bunberry]

Yes I know. Its called the BUK and its the most advanced SAM in the world and its Russian made. However its also been exported all over the world and the Ukrainian army uses it too. It was used by both sides in the Georgia-Russia conflict in 2008. So in simple terms, it's widely available.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysian-airlines-plane-buk-missile

I haven't seen a report saying that the same weapon shot down other (ukrainian) planes, have you got a link?

I apologise you're correct it wasn't the same missile that shot down the military vehicles

[hibsbollah]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/eastern-ukraine-both-sides-responsible-indiscriminate-attacks-2014-11-06

Amnesty reporting continued shelling of civilian areas of Eastern Ukraine by the Ukrainian military and an average of 13 civilian deaths a day since the September ceasefire. Admittedly the Russian separatists are also being condemned for not ensuring civilians are protected from their bombing, but the deaths are overwhelmingly among the native Russian population.

But nothing about this on any major news channels ive seen :dunno:

[RyeSloan]

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/eastern-ukraine-both-sides-responsible-indiscriminate-attacks-2014-11-06 Amnesty reporting continued shelling of civilian areas of Eastern Ukraine by the Ukrainian military and an average of 13 civilian deaths a day since the September ceasefire. Admittedly the Russian separatists are also being condemned for not ensuring civilians are protected from their bombing, but the deaths are overwhelmingly among the native Russian population. But nothing about this on any major news channels ive seen :dunno:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29686752

[hibsbollah]

OK, you got me, even if you had to go to the obscure regional section of the beeb website to find it :greengrin

But its still missing from the main TV news bulletins, and the 'framing' of the story is different. The gist of the AI story is that civilians are being killed by indiscriminate bombing, and this is coming overwhelmingly from the Ukrainian army. The beebs distilled version is that both sides are being condemned, and that 'not on the scale reported by Russia'. This statement is very subjective, made by the bbc reporter not AI, and more importantly changes the whole angle of Amnestys original story.

No outright lies but manipulation of the facts.

Edit...I'm probably flogging a dead horse here, but I listened to radio4s flagship 'Today' programme who were doing a feature on the recent bombing in Ukraine. They referred to 'a number of civilian deaths recently' without specifying whether they were Russian or Ukrainian (as we know the deaths are overwhelmingly Russian). Then they went over to a correspondent in Kiev, who reported on the death of a Ukrainian man hit by shrapnel, and had an emotive interview with a teary relative at the funeral. Then an analysis from the correspondent about the EU becoming more influential in Ukraine, how UKR is an important future market for German products (true), how the Ukrainian president wants more military ties with NATO as '#1 priority (true), and the upcoming elections. And that was it. The deaths of the separatists not worth a single mention.

I know im repeating myself but there is clear biased reporting going on. Its not even being disguised.

[QMU-1875]

Hibsbollah, there is a wealth of information out there which highlights that this war has been whipped up by Russia, have a look at Hromadske on twitter, granted it is a Ukrainian source but have been pretty fair throughout the crisis. The evidence shows that the Donbas regions were never pro-Russian until Igor Strelkov (a former Russian intelligence officer) and some cronies crossed the border heavily armed and took over several different government buildings. Prior to this anti-maidan demonstrations(note anti-maidan and not for separation) were mainly held by Russian nationals and elderly, the BBC gave these large amounts of attention whilst ignoring the large Pro-Ukrainian demonstrations being held simultaneously throughout Donbas. Once Strelkov and his cronies took charge of Govt properties pro separatist propaganda began namely from Russian state TV. This is where the notion of people's republics and Novorussia came from including the ridiculous statements that the Ukrainian government were fascist. As for MH17 I always find it disrespectful to silly the memories of those who died by using it as propaganda. However, as someone who had followed this story very closely from the very beginning a year ago almost to the day, the leader of the separatist army at the time strelkov released a statement saying that the DPR had downed a Ukrainian military cargo plane at the same time as the plane was downed, a comment which was subsequently deleted. I have a screenshot of the article which I am happy to provide over DM. Can I ask Hibsbollah, why/what is it that has made you believe that what is happening in the east of Ukraine was something which the majority of the people in the Donbas wanted? Can I also ask you where you have received your sources?

[hibsbollah]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26387353


To answer your question, i believe it because its demonstrably true. Donetsk and Luhansk are firmly Russian, both in terms of ethnicity and how they voted at the general election. I've already put up links that substantiate my other points if you look at the rest of the thread. Id be interested to see some sources from you, either in relation to biased reporting in the western media or lack of proof about direct russian military involvement, as you haven't provided any yet.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23448-noam-chomsky-red-lines-in-ukraine-and-elsewhere#

Chomsky on double standards.

[hibsbollah]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=YWsR_nkxfAY

Lavrov seemed quite reasonable and logical yesterday, especially compared to the hysterical western journos. Interesting to get the other point of view, which we never usually hear.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Come on - lets just call a spade a spade here. The US is trying to provoke Russia into a war here.

[CB_NO3]

Come on - lets just call a spade a spade here. The US is trying to provoke Russia into a war here.
Will be worrying when these crazy Republicans take over. They will be up for a war.

[hibsbollah]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981


Astonishing unnecessary and inflammatory statements from Cameron and Fallon. Its like kids playing at being politicians. I think we are being hoodwinked into an unnecessary war.

[The_Exile]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981


Astonishing unnecessary and inflammatory statements from Cameron and Fallon. Its like kids playing at being politicians. I think we are being hoodwinked into an unnecessary war.

Read that earlier, talks of a new cold war "warming up", ridiculous statements, the war machine grinds on.

[Bad Martini]

It's all going to go mental soon.

Utterly stone radge.

Bams on all sides with trigger happy fingers and nae brains.

:rules:

:offski:

Meanwhile, the SFA are debating the important things in life :saltireflag ....and the main board still raging on about the fitba :greengrin

Braw.

The big meteorites' coming anyway....and then it really will be....

ENDOF :thumbsup:

[RyeSloan]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981 Astonishing unnecessary and inflammatory statements from Cameron and Fallon. Its like kids playing at being politicians. I think we are being hoodwinked into an unnecessary war.

Why are they astonishing?

Russia is clearly upping the anti here..they have been testing NATO responses using everything from submarines to bear bombers. I suppose it's just normal for them to have a wee sortie down the English channel in planes that are capable of delivering nuclear bombs.

And of course Russia have recently annexed the Crimea and are undoubtedly supporting the Ukraine 'rebels' in the east...so much so that these supposed rebels outclass the Ukraine army in terms of weapons and equipment.

Add to that the recent and rather blatant ignoring of the ceasefire to ensure debaltseve was included in the rebels sphere of influence and you can surely understand members of NATO voicing concerns over Russia's actions.

Add in the fact that the Russian military has been rapidly upgrading its hardware since their wee jaunt into Georgia it's pretty hard to see anything but concern for the countries that Russia might have next on their radar.

Unless of course all of the above is just western spin and Putin is actually doing his best to support the independent nations that surround Russia?

[RyeSloan]

Read that earlier, talks of a new cold war "warming up", ridiculous statements, the war machine grinds on.

Did laugh at that tho...a Cold War warming up..genius.

[hibsbollah]

Why are they astonishing?

Russia is clearly upping the anti here..they have been testing NATO responses using everything from submarines to bear bombers. I suppose it's just normal for them to have a wee sortie down the English channel in planes that are capable of delivering nuclear bombs.

And of course Russia have recently annexed the Crimea and are undoubtedly supporting the Ukraine 'rebels' in the east...so much so that these supposed rebels outclass the Ukraine army in terms of weapons and equipment.

Add to that the recent and rather blatant ignoring of the ceasefire to ensure debaltseve was included in the rebels sphere of influence and you can surely understand members of NATO voicing concerns over Russia's actions.

Add in the fact that the Russian military has been rapidly upgrading its hardware since their wee jaunt into Georgia it's pretty hard to see anything but concern for the countries that Russia might have next on their radar.

Unless of course all of the above is just western spin and Putin is actually doing his best to support the independent nations that surround Russia?

Its astonishing because Cameron is using emotive, undiplomatic language in a war situation. And our foreign secretary making a link between Ukraine and his 'fears' for the Baltic states was bizarre. Its designed to ratchet up tension and is far removed from the way politicians normally talk in diplomatic mode.

And Cameron saying 'you dont buy these things (weapons) on ebay' :dunno: Ridiculous. a) stop talking like a teenager, you're the pm. b) the statement was designed to make the point that because the rebels have weapons, we know where they've come from, ie-its all Russias fault. This is il informed as well as being inane; its easy to demonstrate that the area is awash with weapons, and the missiles being used have been used by the Ukrainian army as well as both sides in the Belarussian conflict as well (I provided the sources earlier).

Lets be clear about two things; 1. There is STILL no evidence that Russian troops are involved in Ukraine. Nowhere. 2. This is a civil war. It is NOT about Russia. There is a Russian majority in parts of Ukraine that feel like when the last (pro Russian) leader was overthrown in 2012, they were subject of a coup d'etat. And they don't like it.

These are the basic facts, but we're not being presented with them.

[Hibrandenburg]

Russian objektive is to turn Ukraine into a failed state and enable them to pull the strings again. Irony is that in the long term it'll mean that they're isolated even more and will inevitably fail themselves.

[Canongatehibs]

Russian objektive is to turn Ukraine into a failed state and enable them to pull the strings again. Irony is that in the long term it'll mean that they're isolated even more and will inevitably fail themselves.

The Baltic nations better watch as they're next on Russia's hit list.

[RyeSloan]

Its astonishing because Cameron is using emotive, undiplomatic language in a war situation. And our foreign secretary making a link between Ukraine and his 'fears' for the Baltic states was bizarre. Its designed to ratchet up tension and is far removed from the way politicians normally talk in diplomatic mode. And Cameron saying 'you dont buy these things (weapons) on ebay' :dunno: Ridiculous. a) stop talking like a teenager, you're the pm. b) the statement was designed to make the point that because the rebels have weapons, we know where they've come from, ie-its all Russias fault. This is il informed as well as being inane; its easy to demonstrate that the area is awash with weapons, and the missiles being used have been used by the Ukrainian army as well as both sides in the Belarussian conflict as well (I provided the sources earlier). Lets be clear about two things; 1. There is STILL no evidence that Russian troops are involved in Ukraine. Nowhere. 2. This is a civil war. It is NOT about Russia. There is a Russian majority in parts of Ukraine that feel like when the last (pro Russian) leader was overthrown in 2012, they were subject of a coup d'etat. And they don't like it. These are the basic facts, but we're not being presented with them.

Yet the us state department is unequivocal:

The Russian military has deployed a large amount of artillery and multiple rocket launcher systems around Debaltseve where it is shelling Ukrainian positions…We are confident these are Russian military not separatist systems. The Russian military also has air defense systems deployed near Debaltseve. We are also confident these are Russian military not separatist systems.

The FT reports:

Ukrainian forces are at a strategic disadvantage against separatists equipped with sophisticated technology including drones, which allow them to target artillery strikes and track troop movements. Ukrainian units are also often unable to contact each other because the separatists can jam their communications
.

Your assertion that this 'civil war' is not about Russia seems almost fanciful. Putin is pulling the strings here of that there can be no doubt.

[hibsbollah]

Yet the us state department is unequivocal:

The Russian military has deployed a large amount of artillery and multiple rocket launcher systems around Debaltseve where it is shelling Ukrainian positions…We are confident these are Russian military not separatist systems. The Russian military also has air defense systems deployed near Debaltseve. We are also confident these are Russian military not separatist systems.

The FT reports:

Ukrainian forces are at a strategic disadvantage against separatists equipped with sophisticated technology including drones, which allow them to target artillery strikes and track troop movements. Ukrainian units are also often unable to contact each other because the separatists can jam their communications
.

Your assertion that this 'civil war' is not about Russia seems almost fanciful. Putin is pulling the strings here of that there can be no doubt.

Ive stopped thinking of the US state department as an impartial source when it comes to the Ukraine. Are you happy trusting this source as evidence? Even if you are, the statement is strange. First they say 'Russia' is shelling Ukrainian positions. The following two paragraphs say 'we are confident these are russian military not separatist positions'. If they have unequivocal proof why feel the need to say they are only 'confident'? Its a lot more likely that they cant tell, and they are dependent on the same google earth technology as the rest of us.

Direct question; assuming you don't believe the majority population of eastern Ukraine who are ethnic Russian are all Putin stooges, what would you say to them who have had their democratically elected leader overthrown, want autonomy and are dealing with bombing from their own government and their language banned by their own government? Do they also have the right to be protected from aggression?

[RyeSloan]

Ive stopped thinking of the US state department as an impartial source when it comes to the Ukraine. Are you happy trusting this source as evidence? Even if you are, the statement is strange. First they say 'Russia' is shelling Ukrainian positions. The following two paragraphs say 'we are confident these are russian military not separatist positions'. If they have unequivocal proof why feel the need to say they are only 'confident'? Its a lot more likely that they cant tell, and they are dependent on the same google earth technology as the rest of us. Direct question; assuming you don't believe the majority population of eastern Ukraine who are ethnic Russian are all Putin stooges, what would you say to them who have had their democratically elected leader overthrown, want autonomy and are dealing with bombing from their own government and their language banned by their own government? Do they also have the right to be protected from aggression?

So the US Stare department is deliberately lying in there assessment? I would also suggest the US might potentially have rather more effective means of assessing war zones, weapons and combatants than the man in the street using google earth.

Even if you don't take the US state departments word for I I would suppose the EU are not to be trusted either?

"The EU has broken its taboo on referring to Russian forces in east Ukraine in its official documents.

It said in its Official Journal on Monday (16 February) that Russian deputy defence minister Anatoly Antonov is being added to its blacklist because he is “involved in supporting the deployment of Russian troops in Ukraine”.

It listed first deputy defence minister Arkady Bakhin for the same reason.
It also listed Andrei Kartapolov, a senior Russian military commander, for being “involved in shaping and implementing the military campaign of the Russian forces in Ukraine

The text in the legal gazette was signed off by EU foreign relations chief Federica Mogherini."

Are you also suggesting the FT is reporting untruths about the separatist a capabilities? Remember you are outright stating this has NOTHING to do with Russia and is just a good ol' civil war.

As for your direct question regarding protection from aggression...Apart from the question being straight out of the Putin playbook well of course they do, does that give Russia the right to destabilise the whole country and supply men, materiel and intelligence to the separatists to divide the Ukraine for its own ends? No.

Your question reads like a justification of the separatist (aka Putin) actions...I wonder how you would react to the west supplying men and materiel to the Ukraine to protect its sovereign state borders....

[hibsbollah]

Simar, the EU and the US are not impartial observers in this conflict, they are benefitting enormously from the expansion of NATO into old Soviet states like Ukraine Latvia Lithuania and Estonia, thats obvious isnt it? Its not a conspiracy theory, its reality.

And you say 'separatist, aka Putin' :hilarious I think that was all you needed to say. If you can't distinguish between the millions of Russians in Ukraine and Putin, the leader of a country called Russia, we may as well stop the discussion right here.

[RyeSloan]

Simar, the EU and the US are not impartial observers in this conflict, they are benefitting enormously from the expansion of NATO into old Soviet states like Ukraine Latvia Lithuania and Estonia, thats obvious isnt it? Its not a conspiracy theory, its reality. And you say 'separatist, aka Putin' :hilarious I think that was all you needed to say. If you can't distinguish between the millions of Russians in Ukraine and Putin, the leader of a country called Russia, we may as well stop the discussion right here.

Ahh so now it's the US AND the EU that are deliberately misrepresenting the facts due to what? The enormous benefits gained from NATO expansion (whatever they might be). Anyone else you want to add to the list of sources (excluding Russia) that are deliberately going out of their way to slander the good name of Valdamir?

In addition to effectively the whole of the western world deliberately trying to mis lead you believe the Ukraine civil war is just that, a civil war with no Russian support, interference or direction.

If that's your position then fine, we all entitled to an opinion! I just happen to believe that even you can't actually believe that ;-)

I 100% understand that there is a large Russian or Russian leaning population in Ukraine. That however does not mean the current situation is arising from that fact alone. It's clear as day that the whole situation is being orchestrated by the kremlin....if by nothing else by the fact that it was Putin himself who was in attendance in Minsk, there was no rebel leaders there it was Putin putting their demands in the table. How does that square with your belief this has nothing to so with Russia?

He's annexed the Crimea and now wants Eastern Ukraine...he's supplied the weapons and the know how for that to happen and to be fair played the West perfectly to get exactly that. Once he has that region safely into his sphere of influence we will see just how much he cares for those peoples constitutional rights, economy and humanitarian issues...

[Bristolhibby]

So the US Stare department is deliberately lying in there assessment? I would also suggest the US might potentially have rather more effective means of assessing war zones, weapons and combatants than the man in the street using google earth.

Even if you don't take the US state departments word for I I would suppose the EU are not to be trusted either?

"The EU has broken its taboo on referring to Russian forces in east Ukraine in its official documents.

It said in its Official Journal on Monday (16 February) that Russian deputy defence minister Anatoly Antonov is being added to its blacklist because he is “involved in supporting the deployment of Russian troops in Ukraine”.

It listed first deputy defence minister Arkady Bakhin for the same reason.
It also listed Andrei Kartapolov, a senior Russian military commander, for being “involved in shaping and implementing the military campaign of the Russian forces in Ukraine

The text in the legal gazette was signed off by EU foreign relations chief Federica Mogherini."

Are you also suggesting the FT is reporting untruths about the separatist a capabilities? Remember you are outright stating this has NOTHING to do with Russia and is just a good ol' civil war.

As for your direct question regarding protection from aggression...Apart from the question being straight out of the Putin playbook well of course they do, does that give Russia the right to destabilise the whole country and supply men, materiel and intelligence to the separatists to divide the Ukraine for its own ends? No.

Your question reads like a justification of the separatist (aka Putin) actions...I wonder how you would react to the west supplying men and materiel to the Ukraine to protect its sovereign state borders....

Let's look back over history

USA - Vietnam
USA - El Salvador
USA - Guatemala
USA - Bay of Pigs Cuba (****ed up there)
Britain & USA - Pinochet in Chile
USA - João Goulart of Brazil proposes agrarian reform, nationalization of oil. Ousted by U.S.-supported military coup.
USA - backs Honduran Contra death squads
USA - Grenada - Troops Invade four years after revolution
Iraq 2003 - WMDs - Oil briefly secured, while country a basket case.
UK, France, USA - Lybia, Gedaffi ousted, country now in a civil war, potential for a new ISIS caliphate.

The Wests hands are far from clean. Russia are flexing their muscles in what they perceive to be their sphere of influence. As the West has done for the past 50 years.

[PeeJay]

Simar, the EU and the US are not impartial observers in this conflict, they are benefitting enormously from the expansion of NATO into old Soviet states like Ukraine Latvia Lithuania and Estonia, thats obvious isnt it? Its not a conspiracy theory, its reality.

And you say 'separatist, aka Putin' :hilarious I think that was all you needed to say. If you can't distinguish between the millions of Russians in Ukraine and Putin, the leader of a country called Russia, we may as well stop the discussion right here.


Aren't you missing the point here? - It's not Russia's prerogative to decide where the sovereign countries you mention are to place their allegiance - they suffered at the hands of the Russians for decades THEY do not want to be part of Putin's empire - hence THEIR move to the West. Russian expansionism is clearly the problem, not Nato's - I don't recall any Nato forces enforcing their wills on the sovereign states you mention, where's the evidence for that then? Merkel turned down Ukraine's request, if I recall? Everyone knows Russia is behind the Ukraine disaster currently unfolding, and the annexation of the Crimean peninsula: the evidence is there for all to see - closing your eyes to it does not make your reality the reality. In Russia itself, that may well be the case, you just have to look at the ludicrous Russian State propaganda machine to understand why (they think we're all fascists over here) - or maybe you rely on that good old harbour for objective, investigative journalism that is Russia Today?

Like it or not: the EU states hold the promise of peace and prosperity for the people in the states formerly suppressed under the Soviet boot, that's why they are clamouring to join the EU or have already done so, aren't they entitled to do so? What has it to do with Russia? All they can expect from Putin's Russia is more of what is happening in the Ukraine unless they tow the party line (Madman Putin's that is) How anybody can defend this man and his country's policy is beyond me ... I mean seriously, is there anything about Putin that makes you think the man has a plan to improve the lives of his people and the people of the states surrounding Russsia? I would suggest that any evidence for that will be much more difficult to find than your demand for proof or Russian involvement in the catastrophe in the Ukraine .... as one Russian ex-general recently put it: "We're not interested in improving the Russian health system, education system, or creating more jobs and better living conditions: we're Russians, we're up for a fight with the USA, and this time we will use the bomb to beat them ...." And you complain elsewhere of Cameron's lack of diplomatic nous! :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Peejay, you are missing a couple of points, let's get into a 'whos missing the point' debate :greengrin:

You mention the old soviet bloc countries are 'clamouring to join the eu'. Well yes, some oligarchs who can sell ex state assets on to the west are, but why did the people of Ukraine vote for the pro Russian president, subsequently toppled by pro western factions in 2012? Why is the West not reporting that the Ukraine 'government' only came to power after a coup?

You also ask 'what has it (the ukraine) got to do with Russia?'. This is spectacularly naive. Lets picture the scenario; over a short space of time the part of the Soviet Union known as the ukraine becomes independent, joins NATO, has millions of ethnic russians living there, is the russians bread basket in terms of food production, there is a coup that overthrows the the pro Russian government, the new pro Western government in Kiev then signs trade agreements with the West, and bans Russian as even a second language in Eastern Ukraine. Do you seriously expect Russia not to have an interest in what happens in what happens in this, artificially divided country? Can you imagine Spain to not have an interest in what happens in an independent Catalonia, or (struggling for an appropriate UK example) England not to have an interest in an independent Wales run by violently anti English separatists?

'Everyone knows Putin is behind the Russian disaster'. You sound like the one whos been subject to propaganda. Don't talk in absolutes, it suppresses debate.

And ive said a number of times before that I dont like Putin his policies or what he stands for. Its a bit classless of Simar to suggest that I'm a cheerleader for the man individually. That's irrelevant though if i think he's being used as a scapegoat for whats happening. My main gripe is with the reporting in this country. The BBC, in my opinion, is acting like a totalitarian state's propaganda machine. And it worries me, both in terms of how it has happened, who has managerial and editorial control, and why its happening.

[DaveF]

What do you think of Fallon's comments re Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania being on the Russian's radar. Estonia was - if I remember my history :greengrin - more or less nicked by Russia as the 2nd world war loomed so does not have that long standing link that Ukraine has.

[RyeSloan]

The Wests hands are far from clean. Russia are flexing their muscles in what they perceive to be their sphere of influence. As the West has done for the past 50 years.

Can't argue with that! Two wrongs don't make a right tho...

[RyeSloan]

Its a bit classless of Simar to suggest that I'm a cheerleader for the man individually

Where have I suggested that? Although to be fair you do seem to be putting a lot of faith into his words and interpretation of events.

[hibsbollah]

Although to be fair you do seem to be putting a lot of faith into his words and interpretation of events.

Not true. I posted a link to a Lavrov speech because it was a counterbalance to the usual news we get. Everything else is out of my own head, not Putins.

[HappyAsHellas]

Trying to find objective reporting on this issue is somewhat difficult. Our news sources are all falling behind the government position, just like they did in Iraq. Where is the true sense of what is actually going on that we used to be able to rely on from good investigative journalists?
We said nothing about the removal of a democratically elected government because it suited the West at the time. The recent report says that we sleepwalked into this situation, and the government were negligent at best.
As for quoting American intelligence reports, are these the same people that downloaded a students thesis as the proof to go to war with Iraq? If so, I will continue to regard anything they say as dubious at best.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-ambassador-to-germany-neo-nazis-are-part-of-our-forces-without-them-russia-would-have-defeated-us/5433051

Putin propaganda?

[Bristolhibby]

Yay! Another war! This time with a country that can fight back.

Can't wait!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/24/britain-to-send-military-advisers-to-ukraine-cameron

J

[hibsbollah]

Yay! Another war! This time with a country that can fight back.

Can't wait!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/24/britain-to-send-military-advisers-to-ukraine-cameron

J


Presumably the Ukrainians already know how to operate the sophisticated weaponry they already possess. So in what way is this going to help the situation over there? I am baffled. Are we trying to ratchet up the tension with russia deliberately? Do they think we need a new arms race/war to kickstart faltering global capitalism? Answers please.

[lord bunberry]

Presumably the Ukrainians already know how to operate the sophisticated weaponry they already possess. So in what way is this going to help the situation over there? I am baffled. Are we trying to ratchet up the tension with russia deliberately? Do they think we need a new arms race/war to kickstart faltering global capitalism? Answers please.
I think Cameron's nose is out of joint because he had nothing to do with negotiating the ceasefire. He is becoming an bit part player and he's trying to flex his muscles. It's all about Britain still being a major player in world politics.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/russian-opposition-politician-boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-moscow-reports

Quite unbelievable things going on. This is the equivalent of Gordon Brown being shot dead outside westminster. Former M16 chief John Soares said on the radio this morning 'we need to prepare to defend ourselves and our allies against Russia'. Wars start like this.

[RyeSloan]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/russian-opposition-politician-boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-moscow-reports Quite unbelievable things going on. This is the equivalent of Gordon Brown being shot dead outside westminster. Former M16 chief John Soares said on the radio this morning 'we need to prepare to defend ourselves and our allies against Russia'. Wars start like this.

Not sure what to make of this. Crude killing of one of the few outspoken critics of Putin within Russia....I'm sure there can be many perspectives and agendas used to point fingers at who is responsible. I would say it was a very sad day for ordinary Russians however as every nation needs people brave enough to stand up to those in charge.

As for John Sawers...his comments seemed reasonably balanced to me. Russia has always been a threat and that threat is becoming more complex and nuanced. While calling in more defence spending to counter the threat his message was pretty clear in the dialogue not confrontation was needed and "Europe and Russia are not converging with one another so we're going to have to find a new way to coexist with Russia,"

[lord bunberry]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/russian-opposition-politician-boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-moscow-reports

Quite unbelievable things going on. This is the equivalent of Gordon Brown being shot dead outside westminster. Former M16 chief John Soares said on the radio this morning 'we need to prepare to defend ourselves and our allies against Russia'. Wars start like this.
This could lead to unrest within Russia and maybe take Putin's attention away from other fronts.

[marinello59]

I think Cameron's nose is out of joint because he had nothing to do with negotiating the ceasefire. He is becoming an bit part player and he's trying to flex his muscles. It's all about Britain still being a major player in world politics.

Nothing to do with that nice Mr Putin then and all to do with Cameron?

[lord bunberry]

Nothing to do with that nice Mr Putin then and all to do with Cameron?
Cameron's sabre rattling will barely register with Putin. Sending weapons experts without any weapons is pointless. I pressume the Ukrainians already know how to use the weapons they already have. Cameron's attempt at making himself look important is adding nothing to help the conflict.
Why wasn't Cameron there helping negotiate the cease fire?

[marinello59]

Cameron's sabre rattling will barely register with Putin. Sending weapons experts without any weapons is pointless. I pressume the Ukrainians already know how to use the weapons they already have. Cameron's attempt at making himself look important is adding nothing to help the conflict.
Why wasn't Cameron there helping negotiate the cease fire?

Of course the Ukrainians can operate their weapons. The British military advisors are there to provide assistance in tactics, medical care and logistics. I know it's wrong in some quarters to praise anything the UK does but our military happens to be very strong in those areas and logistics in particular make a huge difference to success on the battlefield.
If Cameron's so called sabre rattling won't register with Putin why is he sending a message to the UK with the increased invasion of our air space by Russian military aircraft in recent months? Strange behaviour for him to adopt against a wee diddy country like the UK isn't it?

[lord bunberry]

Of course the Ukrainians can operate their weapons. The British military advisors are there to provide assistance in tactics, medical care and logistics. I know it's wrong in some quarters to praise anything the UK does but our military happens to be very strong in those areas and logistics in particular make a huge difference to success on the battlefield.
If Cameron's so called sabre rattling won't register with Putin why is he sending a message to the UK with the increased invasion of our air space by Russian military aircraft in recent months? Strange behaviour for him to adopt against a wee diddy country like the UK isn't it?
He hasn't invaded our air space as far as I'm aware. I'm not one to criticise anything the UK does just for the sake of it, but this move by Cameron seems to me to be a purely symbolic gesture so he can say that he's doing something.

[marinello59]

He hasn't invaded our air space as far as I'm aware. I'm not one to criticise anything the UK does just for the sake of it, but this move by Cameron seems to me to be a purely symbolic gesture so he can say that he's doing something.

What do you think we should do then? Nothing?

[hibsbollah]

What do you think we should do then? Nothing?

Its what I would suggest. Ukraine didnt take sides in Ulster in the seventies, after all. Best to leave civil wars to those who are directly concerned. (unless we're talking humanitarian aid, or stopping some Srebrenica like genocide).

[marinello59]

Its what I would suggest. Ukraine didnt take sides in Ulster in the seventies, after all. Best to leave civil wars to those who are directly concerned. (unless we're talking humanitarian aid, or stopping some Srebrenica like genocide).

You might be right. I honestly don't know, I just have a feeling that doing nothing is not an option.

[Hibbyradge]

Its what I would suggest. Ukraine didnt take sides in Ulster in the seventies, after all. Best to leave civil wars to those who are directly concerned. (unless we're talking humanitarian aid, or stopping some Srebrenica like genocide).

Is it a civil war if Russia is actively involved?

[hibsbollah]

Is it a civil war if Russia is actively involved?

Depends how you define active involvement. NATO are 'involved' in the Ukraine too of course. But yes, its definitely a civil war.

[lord bunberry]

Depends how you define active involvement. NATO are 'involved' in the Ukraine too of course. But yes, its definitely a civil war.
A civil war that fast turning into a proxy war

[Hibrandenburg]

A civil war that fast turning into a proxy war

It's almost as if the west and Russia have agreed to go back to the good old days where their respective arms dealers could earn a decent wage.

[Rasta_Hibs]

It's almost as if the west and Russia have agreed to go back to the good old days where their respective arms dealers could earn a decent wage.

I tend to think to some in power want war with Russia makes perfect sense. Or to be specific and in my simple terms a war with Russia could potentially help the following nations Israel, Saudi Arabia and the USA.

Can Russia defend Iran or Syria if It gets pulled into a war?