Alan Stubbs post Falkirk defeat

[yankyhibby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvqR_LEI4Qs

[Scottie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvqR_LEI4Qs

Alan were are all with you but don't kid yourself on that we're no soft.

Thats been the problem with us over the last decade.

We ARE TOO SOFT.

[yankyhibby]

Alan were are all with you but don't kid yourself on that we're no soft.

Thats been the problem with us over the last decade.

We ARE TOO SOFT.

Sad, but true - in particular against that lot across the city.

[emerald green]

AS must have used the word "frustration" about a dozen times during that short clip.

That is exactly how the fans are feeling and hence why some of them let their frustration boil over.

[SteveHFC]

One of the comments:

" I don't like this interview. He doesn't understand that hearts and rangers are running away with the league. And we can't even get a result agaisnt falkirk. He didn't mention anything about a new striker "

[yankyhibby]

AS must have used the word "frustration" about a dozen times during that short clip.

That is exactly how the fans are feeling and hence why some of them let their frustration boil over.

Alan Stubbs appears to empathise with those supporters frustrated by the results to date and one can see that he himself is frustrated. Again, he refers to the weak mentality of players from last season spilling over into the same players this season. He has done this in previous interviews, which is kind of worrying, and is a real issue that he is very much aware of and is trying to address.

[J-C]

Alan Stubbs appears to empathise with those supporters frustrated by the results to date and one can see that he himself is frustrated. Again, he refers to the weak mentality of players from last season spilling over into the same players this season. He has done this in previous interviews, which is kind of worrying, and is a real issue that he is very much aware of and is trying to address.

Unfortunately the ones with the weak mentality are still at the club, maybe a bigger clearout was necessary to rid the club of this.

[yankyhibby]

Unfortunately the ones with the weak mentality are still at the club, maybe a bigger clearout was necessary to rid the club of this.

I couldn't agree more:agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Alan were are all with you but don't kid yourself on that we're no soft.

Thats been the problem with us over the last decade.

We ARE TOO SOFT.

He means stupid.

[Scottie]

He means stupid.

Thx Ozy

Well aware what he meant but I'm telling him were SOFT. that's the problem :aok:

[Springbank]

We are also prone to stupidity from players

[yankyhibby]

[QUOTE=emerald green;4139114]AS must have used the word "frustration" about a dozen times during that short clip.

That is exactly how the fans are feeling and hence why some of them let their frustration boil over.[/QUOTE

and hence why lots choose to boo.

[Thecat23]

I feel for him. I think we have a very good manager here and sadly he's not got a bolt to spend. He's doing his best with some players who wouldn't be near good enough for this club few years back.

[Judas Iscariot]

I feel for him. I think we have a very good manager here and sadly he's not got a bolt to spend. He's doing his best with some players who wouldn't be near good enough for this club few years back.

Is he a very good manager?

A very good manager would've made game changing decisions in the Hearts game last week

I'd say he's a worse manager than Jobbie Neilson

Is he the new Fergie?

[Thecat23]

Is he a very good manager?

A very good manager would've made game changing decisions in the Hearts game last week

I'd say he's a worse manager than Jobbie Neilson

Is he the new Fergie?

That's only one mistake he's made and doesn't mean he's worse than Neilson. The football he is trying to play is better and remember he's only been here 8 or 9 weeks and has had to try change the mentality of the players.

We looked god until the missed pen against them. We battered The Rangers and list in ET with 10 men. First 45 yesterday we played very well we just need new players that's all.


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[Judas Iscariot]

That's only one mistake he's made and doesn't mean he's worse than Neilson. The football he is trying to play is better and remember he's only been here 8 or 9 weeks and has had to try change the mentality of the players.

We looked god until the missed pen against them. We battered The Rangers and list in ET with 10 men. First 45 yesterday we played very well we just need new players that's all.


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I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

[Thecat23]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

I think your jumping the gun. Only played 4 competitive games. I'll judge him at the end of this season and hopefully next year we're in a much better place.


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[Brizo]

Honest interview.

We created enough chances in the first half to win four games and first half played a style of entertaining passing football not seen last season.

We have too much deadwood from last season in the team and need another experienced striker, a commanding centre back, an experienced ball winning midfielder and id suggest a further creative one before I would be confident of us guaranteeing a play off position. Im not convinced theres the ambition to make those further investments and that's not Stubbs fault.

[Ray_]

That's only one mistake he's made and doesn't mean he's worse than Neilson. The football he is trying to play is better and remember he's only been here 8 or 9 weeks and has had to try change the mentality of the players.

We looked god until the missed pen against them. We battered The Rangers and list in ET with 10 men. First 45 yesterday we played very well we just need new players that's all.


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That was one very serious and blatantly obvious mistake to make, which is a worry and I would much rather see young players introduced than the same old failures rolled out week on week. I'm just hoping he is half as good as he says he is.

[Iain G]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

Bloody hell matey! Its only 3 games into the league season and you have written him off as a manager already. Crazy.

[bingo70]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

I appreciate you're entitled to your opinion but that's absolutely bonkers to make that call 4 competitive games in, especially when we've won one of them and git a draw at ibrox after playing a big chunk of the game with 10 men.

[Beefster]

From the interview, it sounds like those behind the dugout have been having a go at Stubbs. Classy, if so.

[JimBHibees]

From the interview, it sounds like those behind the dugout have been having a go at Stubbs. Classy, if so.

Yep brilliant. Hibs must have some of the most miserable fans on the planet.

[h185forever]

Everyone has an opinion....thats the game

I'm not for condemning him yet .....as there are good signs of change...however some of the problems persist ...we are too soft, we ran out of ideas about 60 mins in and it was obvious that changes needed to be made ....but we changed like for like players ..keeping the same shape to no avail. AS said he wanted us to have diff styles of play ....not obv yesterday...tho it is still early.

I get we have no money ...but do wonder whats happened to the season ticket money that was supposed to be ring fenced fir players ...it certainly hasn't gone there.

The so called bed wetters get a hard time on here ....but they say what they see and were ultimately proved right .....the last half of last season they were being told ..all is good ..one more result ........you're worrying about nothing .......it was obvious to a lot of fans ....it wasn't coming .

i suppose the the real question's are..how long before we should worry this time round...how will it get fixed....do we have realistic expectations....what's for breakfast ?

[hibeejeebies]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH

[BoomtownHibees]

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH

Surely only if we convert some of the chances? We could make 50 chances in a game but if none of them go in then we won't win games which is all I'm looking for

[CentreLine]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more

[JimBHibees]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more

Completely agree.

[kenny.ff]

Some of the comments on here are crazy. Lets give the man a bit time.

[SanFranHibs]

I think he will do a good job for us.

I am however disappointed that Heffernan gets a start before Cummings. Can't be a training thing as if Heffernan was at least quicker at training he would be quicker during matches. He's got to go. Cummings needs a run out of a few games to see if he can step up.

Also, AS should not be afriad to make early changes, even at the half, instead of letting the second half start off as the first half ended and watch the game drift away.

But for me it still comes down to one thing, support from the board. Have other teams spent huge amounts of money? No, but they are not stuck with players from last season who should not be anywhere near our team. In fact, has Stubbs had any money to spend? We are paying wages for our 'signings' but has he actually been given any money to go and secure the quality players we have been assured we will be signing?

I think he knows what's he's doing but we have to admit we have a weak squad and some left over from last year, though he is doing his best to rebuild their confidence are maybe too far gone. Only takes a penalty miss from Craig against them and all the 'good work' of Stubbs is shattered in an instant.

I certainly am not giving up on Stubbs...yet :wink: He has only managed 4 competitive games and we have seen glimpses of what he can achieve but I am under no illusion that this squad can produce the same quality over 90 minutes week in week out.

Allan seems to be pretty good, Kennedy also. I really do not like 'picking' on players but it seems that it is the leftovers from last year, Craig, Heffernan, Robertson and I am most reluctant to say Harris. The latter is still young but it really might be better for him to go elsewhere in an attempt to recapture the promise he showed 2 years ago. But certainly Craig, Robertson and Heffernan in pivotal positions are just not up to it.

Just my opinion as I don't see every game although with the Hamilton games, the Rangers and Hearts game, seen 4 out of the last 6 competitive games.

Not going to include Nelson as he has been told he can leave and at least has tried and pretty much done and will do as much as we can expect from him in a professional manner.


So for me:

1) Finish what was started after the end of last years debacle - Craig, Heffernan and Harris out.
2) The board support the new manager with some cash to bring in 'quality'. And if not at least be honest that there is no money (well obviously this does not apply to back room staff) and effectively admit that the cull was just to reduce operating costs.
3) I still have some confidence in Stubbs.

[Bleeds green]

Completely agree.

Spot on we have the most negative support in scotland at the present time


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[Booked4Being-Ugly]

Spot on we have the most negative support in scotland at the present time


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOur results in the last 2 years would explain why.

[CallumLaidlaw]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more


Absolutely superb post. Especially the 2nd paragraph.

How anyone can be judging Stubbs already is beyond me. He WILL make mistakes. He's a new manager so it's natural. He made his first sub after 62 minutes yesterday. That was much quicker than the first 2 league games so hopefully he's learnt from that already.

Under Mowbray, in our first 3 league games, we won 1, lost 2, which included a 4-1 away defeat to Rangers, and a 1-0 home defeat to Killie.
We then won a league cup game 4-0 against Alloa, and then came the 4-4 Dundee game. That was the one where it all clicked for me.

Let's give the team time to get used to the new style, deal with certain situations, etc.

If after the next 3-4 we haven't progressed, then I'll start to get a bit more concerned.

[kaisersmith]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more

Good post!

[Forza Fred]

Some of the comments on here are crazy. Lets give the man a bit time.

I'm sure Alan knows that the current squad are simply not good enough to cut a swathe, even through this division, but as the saying goes you can only urinate with the appendage you have.

If he could I'm sure he would immediately spend money to bring in players if he was allowed to.

That he isn.'t doing so, suggests the blame lays elsewhere, or our finances are so, so bad that we are in serious financial difficulty.

Quite simply, this squad is not good enough to get promoted, and unless we urgently sign another PROVEN striker, we can forget the play offs.....the promotion play offs that is.

[Pretty Boy]

I like Stubbs and feel really sorry for him.

Promising young manager being hung out to dry trying to work with players not good enough to really challenge in this league.

The fans, realistically or otherwise, expect us to challenge Hearts and Rangers this year but we have a squad a million miles away from being capable of that. The transfer activity in the summer has been a ****ing joke, 3 signings and 2 loanees to try and replace 18 or so players and mount a title challenge. Good one.

If we are struggling over the next couple of months I won't be laying the blame at Stubbs door, it will be the fault of the board, Denpster included.

[we are hibs]

"Scott allan came off because he had cramp" Robertson had cramp before the 90 in the cup game at ibrox but he stayed on? Why wasn't he subbed?

[Beefster]

"Scott allan came off because he had cramp" Robertson had cramp before the 90 in the cup game at ibrox but he stayed on? Why wasn't he subbed?

Maybe Stubbs learned from Robertson's cramp? In any case, Robertson was subbed.

[Borderhibbie76]

I find it disgusting that fans are abusing Stubbs already and its clear from the interview that's the case...thats great drive another manager away that's just what we need - dear me!! The team deserved the boos at FT but FFS give Stubbs some time...he has only been here 2 months and is clearly working with financial constraints - for that blame our pathetic board of directors NOT stubbs

[SanFranHibs]

Maybe Stubbs learned Robertson's crap? In any case, Robertson was subbed.

Fixed !

[Russ]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more


Couldn't agree more , unfortunately I think we have more chance of winning the Champions League before that happens . As is clearly demonstrated on here on a daily basis, we must have the worst supporters in Scottish football. Depressing isn't the word.

[Pretty Boy]

Couldn't agree more , unfortunately I think we have more chance of winning the Champions League before that happens . As is clearly demonstrated on here on a daily basis, we must have the worst supporters in Scottish football. Depressing isn't the word.

Sorry but just because you keep repeating this utter dross doesn't make it true.

Worst supporters in Scottish football? Not even close. For the last 7 years I don't think any fans have been so consistently booted in the baws by their club. Terrible derby record? Check. Scottish cup humiliation? Check. Record defeat in Europe? Check. Consistent bottom 6 finishes? Check. Oh and the creme de la creme relegation? Check.

Yet throughout all that ST sales held firm, attendance held firm. Every time the club came calling looking for money the fans answered. Even this year when many looked like they had finally had enough when the club came begging we managed to drag ST numbers up by another couple of thousand and attendances are comparable to last year.

People need to get their heads out the sand and realise the people to blame for our situation are sitting in the boardroom not the stands.

[PeeJay]

That's only one mistake he's made and doesn't mean he's worse than Neilson. The football he is trying to play is better and remember he's only been here 8 or 9 weeks and has had to try change the mentality of the players.

We looked god until the missed pen against them. We battered The Rangers and list in ET with 10 men. First 45 yesterday we played very well we just need new players that's all.


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ONE MISTAKE? You may have forgotten the mistake against the Rangers where he failed to substitute a cramp-riddled Robertson, a failure that ultimately cost us the goal that we then lost by ...

[SanFranHibs]

He looks and sounds like a man shell shocked by the level of abuse and non support levelled at himself and his players. Must be wondering why he is bothering. More than anything else his comment about fans needing to "get behind us" is very telling. Hibs fans need to become supporters again. Yelling abuse is only destructive.

The perception about Butcher and Malpas was that their management style was all about abuse and how demotivating that was. Yet a significant number of our fans seem to think abuse is the way to motivate our team on the park and inspire our coaching staff. Aye right. Change will be a long time coming if fans can't find it in themselves to become supporters once more

Good post CL!

We all feel frustrated and I have no real problems with fans booing at the end of a game letting the team as a whole know their performance was dreadful. But screaming and cursing at individuals is not productive.

We have other outlets such as Hibs.net where we can critique individuals, whether player, coaching staff or board member.

P.S. And boy, can we 'critique' :)

[Beefster]

It can only be a matter of time until some outraged Hibs supporter reports that Stubbs called him a bad name without any provocation whatsoever.

[Steve20]

We've known all summer that we needed goals. So to go on about creating so many chances etc is just poor excuses. We brought in ONE striker. We needed people to put the ball in the net. Good management would have known that.

He's still a young manager, so give him the benefit of the doubt to start with. But needs to learn quick

[Lucius Apuleius]

Just an observation and I really dont know what it means. Guy has appeared next to me tyhis season. Every time Falkirk attacked or created a half chance it was a case of here we go again or we were lucky they didn't score yet when we attacked or created a missed chance it was utter crap.

[Greenblood70]

I like Stubbs and feel really sorry for him.

Promising young manager being hung out to dry trying to work with players not good enough to really challenge in this league.

The fans, realistically or otherwise, expect us to challenge Hearts and Rangers this year but we have a squad a million miles away from being capable of that. The transfer activity in the summer has been a ****ing joke, 3 signings and 2 loanees to try and replace 18 or so players and mount a title challenge. Good one.

If we are struggling over the next couple of months I won't be laying the blame at Stubbs door, it will be the fault of the board, Denpster included.

Pretty much sums it up for me, Stubbs has had the legs cut from under him by yet another shambolic pre season, with the stated aim of having two players for each position looking more and more laughable.

There is no real desire or ambition at boardroom level for promotion. We've been lied to and cheated again by these shysters. The sooner the lot are cleared out of ER the better for me.


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[Heedersnvolleys]

I like Stubbs and feel really sorry for him.

Promising young manager being hung out to dry trying to work with players not good enough to really challenge in this league.

The fans, realistically or otherwise, expect us to challenge Hearts and Rangers this year but we have a squad a million miles away from being capable of that. The transfer activity in the summer has been a ****ing joke, 3 signings and 2 loanees to try and replace 18 or so players and mount a title challenge. Good one.

If we are struggling over the next couple of months I won't be laying the blame at Stubbs door, it will be the fault of the board, Denpster included.
That's my take on it, I don't blame Stubbs at all or even some of the players, I think we can see he has an eye for a player as the players he has brought in are better than what we have got but we need more and butchers clear out should have been a bit more severe! To be at the stage by the sound of it where after 3 signings we need someone to move on before we can get someone in is absolute joke.

[Ozyhibby]

Sorry but just because you keep repeating this utter dross doesn't make it true.

Worst supporters in Scottish football? Not even close. For the last 7 years I don't think any fans have been so consistently booted in the baws by their club. Terrible derby record? Check. Scottish cup humiliation? Check. Record defeat in Europe? Check. Consistent bottom 6 finishes? Check. Oh and the creme de la creme relegation? Check.

Yet throughout all that ST sales held firm, attendance held firm. Every time the club came calling looking for money the fans answered. Even this year when many looked like they had finally had enough when the club came begging we managed to drag ST numbers up by another couple of thousand and attendances are comparable to last year.

People need to get their heads out the sand and realise the people to blame for our situation are sitting in the boardroom not the stands.

100%
Sick of getting the blame here. It's not the fans fault. We are the fourth biggest supported club in Scotland. We are currently ranked at 20. If something is wrong it's not the fans.

[Russ]

Sorry but just because you keep repeating this utter dross doesn't make it true.

Worst supporters in Scottish football? Not even close. For the last 7 years I don't think any fans have been so consistently booted in the baws by their club. Terrible derby record? Check. Scottish cup humiliation? Check. Record defeat in Europe? Check. Consistent bottom 6 finishes? Check. Oh and the creme de la creme relegation? Check.

Yet throughout all that ST sales held firm, attendance held firm. Every time the club came calling looking for money the fans answered. Even this year when many looked like they had finally had enough when the club came begging we managed to drag ST numbers up by another couple of thousand and attendances are comparable to last year.

People need to get their heads out the sand and realise the people to blame for our situation are sitting in the boardroom not the stands.

You're being a tad selective there with the stats there 'pretty boy' Last 7 years ? I have followed Hibs regularly since 1978, believe me , nothing has changed Derby wise before then or since . Not even going to bother with your other incorrect facts.


PS I'm as unhappy as the next Hibs supporter.

[Pretty Boy]

You're being a tad selective there with the stats there 'pretty boy' Last 7 years ? I have followed Hibs regularly since 1978, believe me , nothing has changed Derby wise before then or since . Not even going to bother with your other incorrect facts.


PS I'm as unhappy as the next Hibs supporter.

Incorrect facts?

9-0 defeat in Europe is a record.
Scottish cup defeat happened.
07/08 - 6th
08/09 - 6th
09/10 - 4th
10/11 - 10th
11/12 - 11th
12/13 - 7th
13/14 - 11th and relegated

That equals consistent bottom 6 finishes and a relegation to me.

As for the derby record, well just because it's been crap for as long as most of us can remember doesn't somehow make it excusable. It's yet another factor in why people have become increasingly pissed off in recent years.

ST sales have hovered consistently around the 9K mark for the last 4 seasoms, down from around 10.5K in 07/08 and a further drop to around 7K this season.

[erin go bragh]

Away teams must love playing at ER . More booing than singing .

Ggtth

[Keith_M]

Couldn't agree more , unfortunately I think we have more chance of winning the Champions League before that happens . As is clearly demonstrated on here on a daily basis, we must have the worst supporters in Scottish football. Depressing isn't the word.


You're so boring it's unreal.


Yep, we should just all sit back, pay our money and take the same salp in the face we get every season with a smile on our faces.

[Thecat23]

ONE MISTAKE? You may have forgotten the mistake against the Rangers where he failed to substitute a cramp-riddled Robertson, a failure that ultimately cost us the goal that we then lost by ...

Sorry I agree with you PeeJay on that, if Robbo was suffering from cramp a few mins before the goal he should have been hooked. Or did we use all subs by then I can't mind?




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[Iain G]

100%
Sick of getting the blame here. It's not the fans fault. We are the fourth biggest supported club in Scotland. We are currently ranked at 20. If something is wrong it's not the fans.

As long as I remember there has been a vocal, whinging, moaning section of our fanbase, even during the McLeish, Mowbray and Collins good times. Not sure if its more or less than any other club in Scotland, don't really care, but it's always been there in all parts of Easter Road I have ever stood/sat.

Stubbs and the team need positive support during the game, negative abuse aimed at certain players is not going to make it any easier for the team to move forward. I dont think anyone is saying that fans shouldn't be p'd off or angry but right now we are in this crappy situation together and we need to pull together with Stubbs and the team he is putting out on the park as angry, tagretted, vocal criticism is not the answer right now.

[Phil MaGlass]

From the interview, it sounds like those behind the dugout have been having a go at Stubbs. Classy, if so.
If I had the chance I would empty all the fans from directly behind the dugout.

[silverhibee]

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH


But only 3 were on target.

[marinello59]

From the interview, it sounds like those behind the dugout have been having a go at Stubbs. Classy, if so.

I sit right behind the dugout and didn't hear anything being directed at Stubbs.

[SanFranHibs]

Sorry but just because you keep repeating this utter dross doesn't make it true.

Worst supporters in Scottish football? Not even close. For the last 7 years I don't think any fans have been so consistently booted in the baws by their club. Terrible derby record? Check. Scottish cup humiliation? Check. Record defeat in Europe? Check. Consistent bottom 6 finishes? Check. Oh and the creme de la creme relegation? Check.

Yet throughout all that ST sales held firm, attendance held firm. Every time the club came calling looking for money the fans answered. Even this year when many looked like they had finally had enough when the club came begging we managed to drag ST numbers up by another couple of thousand and attendances are comparable to last year.

People need to get their heads out the sand and realise the people to blame for our situation are sitting in the boardroom not the stands.

No matter how often I hear the checklist that you detailed it still bites as deep. It is depressing.

However, PB I think you would accept that we all know or at least believe we know where the blame ultimately lies but as we are not invited into the boardroom on a Monday morning we look for other outlets for our frustration. But the frustration and anger of the past few seasons and particularly last season should not be directed at someone whose managerial experience, not just at Hibs, but in total is 4 competitive games. He's had 4 games to turn around the mess of a few years. Also, using your own argument, if it is the board who are to blame why jump on AS after only 4 games?

I have no problems with teams being booed off the park 'as a whole' but it is wrong that AS and some of the players who have had nothing to do with the past few years are being tarred with the same brush. (Their turn will come next year :wink:)

Look at Hearts. A disgrace of a club. Theft, administration, relegation and yet have defeated both their main rivals and sit undefeated atop the division. Are the Hearts managers given much more money? No. Do they get players that seem to play 'reasonably' well as a part of the team, or at least make a positive contribution? Evidently so. However, I think they still adopt the quantity strategy and if one or two produce something, even if it's not long lasting, it is worth it. Also, even though they brought it on themselves financially they made the right decision when they knew it had to be made, they gutted the team. Maybe they had no choice but they done it right. We went half way and kept a few that should have been gone. This was not Stubb's decision. Is not Allan's fault, or Kennedy's fault, or Alagui's fault and so on. Indeed by offloading many and keeping on some dross from last year Stubbs has been placed in an unenviable position of not being able to let go some that he might wish to because the squad is so weak. He is forced to use players who he probably knows are just not up to it.

The board have had no problem adding backroom staff to the payroll. Time to back the manager and team.

Give Stubbs a chance! Even if the board don't support him, we should !!

Of course he chose to be a manger and even if he is not supported by the board it is still his responsibility to improve what he has. But after years of incompetence he is being abused after only 4 games?

Tough crowd.

[matty_f]

One of the comments:

" I don't like this interview. He doesn't understand that hearts and rangers are running away with the league. And we can't even get a result agaisnt falkirk. He didn't mention anything about a new striker "

3 games in.

Some comments on this thread and some of the shouts at the game yesterday just depress me. Another manager being written off, another season being written off. Boot. Boot. Boot.

We undoubtedly have a very loyal support. We have, as Pretty Boy rightly said, been kicked in the baws consistently over the last however many years. That's not Alan Stubbs' fault though. He deserves a chance without folk on his back 3 games in. The transfer window isn't even finished yet. We struggled in the second half to break down a team that put everyone behind the ball. We are not the first team to struggle with that, and we won't be the last.

First half we played some terrific stuff, creating a load of chances that should have resulted in goals. Nobody wants to lose, but FFS we need to collectively get behind this team if they are to have any chance of emerging as an entertaining and winning side.

Stubbs isn't to blame for the lack of transfer activity, neither are Liam Craig or Michael Nelson, or Alex Harris. If we're going to vent frustration at least aim it at the right people and start backing Stubbs and his side.

[jeffers]

I sit right behind the dugout and didn't hear anything being directed at Stubbs.
Facts like that will disappoint a few on here.

[matty_f]

Facts like that will disappoint a few on here.

The fact that one person didn't hear it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

[chinaman]

I think your jumping the gun. Only played 4 competitive games. I'll judge him at the end of this season and hopefully next year we're in a much better place.


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Nah ! Stubbs oot bring back speccy

[Pretty Boy]

No matter how often I hear the checklist that you detailed it still bites as deep. It is depressing.

However, PB I think you would accept that we all know or at least believe we know where the blame ultimately lies but as we are not invited into the boardroom on a Monday morning we look for other outlets for our frustration. But the frustration and anger of the past few seasons and particularly last season should not be directed at someone whose managerial experience, not just at Hibs, but in total is 4 competitive games. He's had 4 games to turn around the mess of a few years. Also, using your own argument, if it is the board who are to blame why jump on AS after only 4 games?

I have no problems with teams being booed off the park 'as a whole' but it is wrong that AS and some of the players who have had nothing to do with the past few years are being tarred with the same brush. (Their turn will come next year :wink:)

Look at Hearts. A disgrace of a club. Theft, administration, relegation and yet have defeated both their main rivals and sit undefeated atop the division. Are the Hearts managers given much more money? No. Do they get players that seem to play 'reasonably' well as a part of the team, or at least make a positive contribution? Evidently so. However, I think they still adopt the quantity strategy and if one or two produce something, even if it's not long lasting, it is worth it. Also, even though they brought it on themselves financially they made the right decision when they knew it had to be made, they gutted the team. Maybe they had no choice but they done it right. We went half way and kept a few that should have been gone. This was not Stubb's decision. Is not Allan's fault, or Kennedy's fault, or Alagui's fault and so on. Indeed by offloading many and keeping on some dross from last year Stubbs has been placed in an unenviable position of not being able to let go some that he might wish to because the squad is so weak. He is forced to use players who he probably knows are just not up to it.

The board have had no problem adding backroom staff to the payroll. Time to back the manager and team.

Give Stubbs a chance! Even if the board don't support him, we should !!

Of course he chose to be a manger and even if he is not supported by the board it is still his responsibility to improve what he has. But after years of incompetence he is being abused after only 4 games?

Tough crowd.

I agree with large parts of what you say.

I've already said on several threads I absolve Stubbs of almost any blame for the situation we are in and will continue to do so. He doesn't have the tools to do his job properly.

I'm also not mad keen on people who abuse and boo our players and manager at games. It's certainly not my style. Last season I tended to watch games in a kind of horror induced silence, this season so far I've made a conscious effort to try and back the team vocally.

However I really don't blame fans who get frustrated and let it boil over and I don't really blame those who have given up all together either. The last few seasons would test the patience of almost anyone. For me though the frustration shouldn't be aimed at the team, it should be aimed at the boardroom.

Anyway I'll be there on Tuesday and at Alloa next week hoping against hope that things improve.

[jeffers]

The fact that one person didn't hear it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
I'll need to get my hearing checked as well then.

[SanFranHibs]

I agree with large parts of what you say.

I've already said on several threads I absolve Stubbs of almost any blame for the situation we are in and will continue to do so. He doesn't have the tools to do his job properly.

I'm also not mad keen on people who abuse and boo our players and manager at games. It's certainly not my style. Last season I tended to watch games in a kind of horror induced silence, this season so far I've made a conscious effort to try and back the team vocally.

However I really don't blame fans who get frustrated and let it boil over and I don't really blame those who have given up all together either. The last few seasons would test the patience of almost anyone. For me though the frustration shouldn't be aimed at the team, it should be aimed at the boardroom.

Anyway I'll be there on Tuesday and at Alloa next week hoping against hope that things improve.

Can't disagree with any of this PB.

I am not even in the country (But I can honestly say I would be going if I was there. ST before I left.) and it is marginally 'easier' to take but only because I don't know any smug jambos over here. The actual results and performances are the same no matter where you are.

I don't like Sundays!

[emerald green]

I find it disgusting that fans are abusing Stubbs already and its clear from the interview that's the case...thats great drive another manager away that's just what we need - dear me!! The team deserved the boos at FT but FFS give Stubbs some time...he has only been here 2 months and is clearly working with financial constraints - for that blame our pathetic board of directors NOT stubbs

:agree: I understand why the fans anger and frustration boils over. I do not condone booing players, but as I say, I understand why it happens. Is that so hard for some to grasp?

The blame for the predicament the club is in DOES NOT LIE WITH ALAN STUBBS, OR THE FANS (those booing or otherwise). The finger of blame needs to be pointed firmly in the direction where it belongs, i.e. an owner with no footballing interest in the club, and a board of directors under the stewardship of Rod Petrie who ultimately are the ones who must take responsibility. I exclude the current CEO from this.

It's not right that players and/or the current head coach are taking criticism while Petrie sits in the stand and nothing seems to stick to him. Whatever happened to "Petrie Out"?

[cleanyman]

I looked at the team with 20 minutes to go.

They looked beat. Who was the boy at the end sitting down?

If you're a supporter that's not the body language what you want to see, especially so early into the season

[Pretty Boy]

:agree: I understand why the fans anger and frustration boils over. I do not condone booing players, but as I say, I understand why it happens. Is that so hard for some to grasp?

The blame for the predicament the club is in DOES NOT LIE WITH ALAN STUBBS, OR THE FANS (those booing or otherwise). The finger of blame needs to be pointed firmly in the direction where it belongs, i.e. an owner with no footballing interest in the club, and a board of directors under the stewardship of Rod Petrie who ultimately are the ones who must take responsibility. I exclude the current CEO from this.

It's not right that players and/or the current head coach are taking criticism while Petrie sits in the stand and nothing seems to stick to him. Whatever happened to "Petrie Out"?

I think 'Petrie Out' fizzled out because not enough people were interested. The demo attracted circa 1500. A decent number but only about 1/6 of last seasons ST holders and far less of the larger fan base.

If people weren't interested it's not hard to see why it wasn't carried on/evolved into something else.

[Heisenberg]

I looked at the team with 20 minutes to go.

They looked beat. Who was the boy at the end sitting down?

If you're a supporter that's not the body language what you want to see, especially so early into the season

It was the only one of them brave enough to take the opposition on and drive forward. Kennedy looks a player and certainly showed Alex Harris how to do it yesterday. Stubbs deserves time and patience, his backing in this transfer window has been abysmal.

[Billychaotic182]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

It's fans like this that are ruining anything in This club. How on earth can we expect anything if we rule he is not good enough after three that's right three games. Honestly mate what are you thinking?

[emerald green]

I think 'Petrie Out' fizzled out because not enough people were interested. The demo attracted circa 1500. A decent number but only about 1/6 of last seasons ST holders and far less of the larger fan base.

If people weren't interested it's not hard to see why it wasn't carried on/evolved into something else.

Cheers, I agree with what you say about "Petrie Out". I really wasn't trying to rake that one up again TBH.

I presume you would agree with what I said in the rest of my post?

[Pretty Boy]

Cheers, I agree with what you say about "Petrie Out". I really wasn't trying to rake that one up again TBH.

I presume you would agree with what I said in the rest of my post?

100%.

[emerald green]

100%.

:aok:

[Jpdhfc]

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH

18chances and no goals and you will settle for that

[bingo70]

18chances and no goals and you will settle for that

Is it not obvious what the poster meant?

Of course we need to start getting wins but it is possible to play well and not win. Its unusual to create that many chances and not take at least one or two. If we continue to create that many chances we'll win the majority of matches and have a decent chance of getting promoted.

[Jpdhfc]

So missing 18 chances is playing well now

[cleanyman]

It was the only one of them brave enough to take the opposition on and drive forward. Kennedy looks a player and certainly showed Alex Harris how to do it yesterday. Stubbs deserves time and patience, his backing in this transfer window has been abysmal.

Aye, he played well. Ran out of puff.

[Wilson]

so missing 18 chances is playing well now

ltyf

[bingo70]

So missing 18 chances is playing well now

Yes, creating 18 chances normally comes on the back of playing well.

Stubbs has no control over how well we take these chances, if those chances had been say a foot the other side and we'd won 18-1 would you concede we played well?

[Sir David Gray]

You're being a tad selective there with the stats there 'pretty boy' Last 7 years ? I have followed Hibs regularly since 1978, believe me , nothing has changed Derby wise before then or since . Not even going to bother with your other incorrect facts.


PS I'm as unhappy as the next Hibs supporter.

Seven years isn't strictly true, although I have seen it mentioned numerous times. I think people mention that number as 2007 was when the players' revolt against John Collins happened, but we were no worse than average around that time and the following two or three years.

It wasn't until the latter half of the 09/10 season that things started to go really wrong. Since January 2010, we've won just 43 league matches out of a possible 171. That means we've failed to win in 75% of our league matches in that time.

That's still over four and a half years that we're talking about here, which has resulted in our relegation and for a club like Hibs that's an unacceptable length of time.

[PeeJay]

Sorry I agree with you PeeJay on that, if Robbo was suffering from cramp a few mins before the goal he should have been hooked. Or did we use all subs by then I can't mind?




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He was subbed shortly after it - what made me so mad was EVEN I could see he was needing subbed on HIBS TV and that's saying something ... :greengrin

[Jpdhfc]

Yes, creating 18 chances normally comes on the back of playing well.

Stubbs has no control over how well we take these chances, if those chances had been say a foot the other side and we'd won 18-1 would you concede we played well?
I know we played well in some places on the pitch but to miss these chances is hard to accept what happen when we only create 3/4 chances the point is the quality we've been promised is not there (yet)and it's costing us points

[CapitalGreen]

LWLD

^ The record from Mowbray's first 4 league games, he turned out ok.

[Beefster]

So missing 18 chances is playing well now

It's better than the zero chances we used to get under Fenlon and Butcher.

[NAE NOOKIE]

People making a judgement on Stubbs after 4 games are having a laugh ...... I mean c'mon FFS http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/no%20way.gif

He has made mistakes ..... not subbing Robertson being the obvious one.

But as far as I can see we are playing better than we have for a long while. What has let us down has been failure to turn our decent play into goals. At Ibrox and yesterday we could and would have won if the chances we made had been turned into shots on target. Against Livvi we would have been out of sight by 60 minutes with better finishing. If Craig had scored his pen at the Wongadome .... who knows?

I am as disappointed as anyone by our poor start to the season and good play or not we need to be winning games. I'm sure AS is well aware of that. We need to work a lot harder on our final ball into the box, our finishing and our defending at corners.

The players he has brought in are decent. Gray is already a better RB than we have had for some time. Allan looks like he could be very good once fit and Kennedy was excellent yesterday. Al Alagui looks OK but needs a partner. Oxley I'm not so sure about yet .... he needs to command his box more and punches too much for me.

That's on the park. Off it we appear to have the same problems ..... Where is the backing for the manager? Our keeper and left winger are loans, meaning we have brought in the sum total of 3 players none of whom bust the bank wages wise I'm sure. We need a centre half a ball playing midfield player and a decent striker. The fact that James McFadden is still out there with no club and we have not brought him in is frankly amazing .... exactly who is out there with the ability he has for the money he would want?

To end ............ Its far too easy to blame the fans for our failings, yes there is moaning and booing, but as a support we have been incredibly loyal for years with no reward. The backing of the fans is of huge importance ..... IMO the clubs failure to create a dedicated singing section in the FF lower is as poor a decision than any failure to improve the team.

Most clubs hide the away fans down the side of the pitch or stick them up in a corner somewhere in an attempt to minimise their impact .... At Easter Road the most vociferous home fans are stuck up in a corner of the biggest stand and the away fans have a visible presence behind a goal, where more often than not a few hundred out sing our lot. What other club would be barmy enough to do that?

As has been mentioned before, the hugely successful British cycling team took the approach that any improvements, even though they might be a tiny percentage of the whole package, would take them where they wanted to be. For Hibs this is a clear case in point and a clear indication that our board know lots about business and sod all about the non financial factors which can lead to a successful football club.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

People making a judgement on Stubbs after 4 games are having a laugh ...... I mean c'mon FFS http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/no%20way.gif

He has made mistakes ..... not subbing Robertson being the obvious one.

But as far as I can see we are playing better than we have for a long while. What has let us down has been failure to turn our decent play into goals. At Ibrox and yesterday we could and would have won if the chances we made had been turned into shots on target. Against Livvi we would have been out of sight by 60 minutes with better finishing. If Craig had scored his pen at the Wongadome .... who knows?

I am as disappointed as anyone by our poor start to the season and good play or not we need to be winning games. I'm sure AS is well aware of that. We need to work a lot harder on our final ball into the box, our finishing and our defending at corners.

The players he has brought in are decent. Gray is already a better RB than we have had for some time. Allan looks like he could be very good once fit and Kennedy was excellent yesterday. Al Alagui looks OK but needs a partner. Oxley I'm not so sure about yet .... he needs to command his box more and punches too much for me.

That's on the park. Off it we appear to have the same problems ..... Where is the backing for the manager? Our keeper and left winger are loans, meaning we have brought in the sum total of 3 players none of whom bust the bank wages wise I'm sure. We need a centre half a ball playing midfield player and a decent striker. The fact that James McFadden is still out there with no club and we have not brought him in is frankly amazing .... exactly who is out there with the ability he has for the money he would want?

To end ............ Its far too easy to blame the fans for our failings, yes there is moaning and booing, but as a support we have been incredibly loyal for years with no reward. The backing of the fans is of huge importance ..... IMO the clubs failure to create a dedicated singing section in the FF lower is as poor a decision than any failure to improve the team.

Most clubs hide the away fans down the side of the pitch or stick them up in a corner somewhere in an attempt to minimise their impact .... At Easter Road the most vociferous home fans are stuck up in a corner of the biggest stand and the away fans have a visible presence behind a goal, where more often than not a few hundred out sing our lot. What other club would be barmy enough to do that?

As has been mentioned before, the hugely successful British cycling team took the approach that any improvements, even though they might be a tiny percentage of the whole package, would take them where they wanted to be. For Hibs this is a clear case in point and a clear indication that our board know lots about business and sod all about the non financial factors which can lead to a successful football club.

With people making allegations left, right and centre what I want to know is :

Who is the chief alligator?

[Stevie Reid]

After Butcher's first few matches we thought he was the business - we all know what happened after that.

We are three games into our league season and whilst it is frustrating to be behind Rangers and Hearts to the degree that we are already, there is a long way to go and thankfully 4th place still keeps us in contention for going up if need be.

We created more chances in the 1st half yesterday than we did in probably the whole of Butcher's ER games put together (maybe even Fenlon's). We lost our way a bit in the second half but still had gilt edged chances to take something from the game.

However, 3 defeats out of 4 this season is hard to swallow, especially in the wider context of how we arrived where we are - I can completely understand everyone's frustration, but we need to stay onside. All of our players were comfortable in possession yesterday, and were confident enough to move the ball around and create chances - but that will change very quickly if supporters turn on the team. The boos yesterday came very quickly, and were completely unjustified IMO.

Plenty people on here said recently that they would accept certain results as long as we played a certain way and were good to watch - how quickly that changes. I am confident that the results will come if we keep doing what we're doing, but we'll only keep doing what we're doing if the confidence remains.

As far as I'm concerned Stubbs' biggest problem now is Liam Craig - all the good will that was built up over the last few weeks disappeared for many when he missed that penalty, and for many now there is no way back for him. Unfortunately Stubbs made a rod for his own back by retaining him as captain, and whilst he'll always have my support, there are too many who will remain on his back which will be counterproductive for the team.

[Paloschi]

Stubbs, like any manager in football needs time to implement his style and shape his squad in a way that will get us winning games.

We have however lost 75% of our competitive games this season. Granted they have been The Rangers 2012 and Hearts away and a decent Falkirk outfit at home.

We look incapable of challenging at the moment but that is not all down to AS. Petrie is still the dark cloud that looms over the club and this 'quality not quantity' is again positive spin to feed us. Farmer and Petrie are a stubborn team that will not provide the cash to make us competitive. Hearts and Rangers despite their financial worries have out spent us.

IMO Craig, Nelson, Robertson and Heffernan should be nowhere near the team as they were useless last season and do not deserve another chance. I'd rather Stubbs played youth's than these imposters. Harris needs a loan spell somewhere.

My last point is that people need to grow up if they are blaming negativity from the fans. The fans who have been let down time and time again have a right to voice concern. FFS every support in world football has supporters that shout abuse and also has a fair few moaners. Are we not allowed to moan? Fans can support the team in whatever way they see fit IMO.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Unfortunately the ones with the weak mentality are still at the club, maybe a bigger clearout was necessary to rid the club of this.

Don't disagree but I'm not sure it's feasible to empty an entire squad, especially when a new manager joins half way through summer. Not only would there be a risk we'd end up with half a team, it'd also cost a lot of money to cancel everyone's contracts. AS will build his own team but needs more than one transfer window to do it.

Think you're right about the mental strength as well but that's not something that can be changed quickly either, especially if the supporters are getting on the players backs (I wasn't at the game so I'm just going on past experience and what AS said). We've had a difficult run of games and hopefully some victories against easier opposition will build some confidence.

[WestEndHibee]

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH

I was thinking the same thing. I felt nothing near the frustration I did last year in most games. There's been a bit of an over reaction on here.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

After only four games in charge, this is one of the most daft posts on here in a while.

The guys doing the best with what he's got. He's learning all the time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Lee Marvin]

I was thinking the same thing. I felt nothing near the frustration I did last year in most games. There's been a bit of an over reaction on here.

Over reaction to yesterday has been a joke! If we played hoofball and created no chances I'd understand, but we are so much better than last season and how people can't see that is beyond me.

[greenlex]

Am I the only one to think we played alright yesterday? 18 chances, I'll settle for that every week. Some of the comments I've seen on here have been a bit cringey.

GGTTH

Nope. The only problem I had yesterday was the lack if urgency in the last /0 mins or so.

[greenlex]

"Scott allan came off because he had cramp" Robertson had cramp before the 90 in the cup game at ibrox but he stayed on? Why wasn't he subbed?

He was subbed.

[J-C]

Don't disagree but I'm not sure it's feasible to empty an entire squad, especially when a new manager joins half way through summer. Not only would there be a risk we'd end up with half a team, it'd also cost a lot of money to cancel everyone's contracts. AS will build his own team but needs more than one transfer window to do it.

Think you're right about the mental strength as well but that's not something that can be changed quickly either, especially if the supporters are getting on the players backs (I wasn't at the game so I'm just going on past experience and what AS said). We've had a difficult run of games and hopefully some victories against easier opposition will build some confidence.

I know it's not feasible but it was something that needs to be done to make a complete fresh start.

[emerald green]

Sorry but just because you keep repeating this utter dross doesn't make it true.

Worst supporters in Scottish football? Not even close. For the last 7 years I don't think any fans have been so consistently booted in the baws by their club. Terrible derby record? Check. Scottish cup humiliation? Check. Record defeat in Europe? Check. Consistent bottom 6 finishes? Check. Oh and the creme de la creme relegation? Check.

Yet throughout all that ST sales held firm, attendance held firm. Every time the club came calling looking for money the fans answered. Even this year when many looked like they had finally had enough when the club came begging we managed to drag ST numbers up by another couple of thousand and attendances are comparable to last year.

People need to get their heads out the sand and realise the people to blame for our situation are sitting in the boardroom not the stands.

:agree: Totally agree. To call us the worst supporters in Scottish football is simply ludicrous. I really despair when I read that cr**.

[we are hibs]

He was subbed.

After causing the winning goal


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[greenlex]

After causing the winning goal


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After getting cramp. Are the coaching staff supposed to see into the future now and sub him before he gets cramp?

[we are hibs]

After getting cramp. Are the coaching staff supposed to see into the future now and sub him before he gets cramp?

He was struggling before the 90 with cramp, caused the goal in extra time, should've been took off after the 90 and Scott allan brought on. Not saying it's his fault because he is the kind of player who is going to get cramp earlier than others due to being a box to box player.


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[CentreLine]

100%
Sick of getting the blame here. It's not the fans fault. We are the fourth biggest supported club in Scotland. We are currently ranked at 20. If something is wrong it's not the fans.

The problem is that people confuse being a SUPPORTER with being a fan. Yelling abuse from the stands is not support.

[Brightside]

So missing 18 chances is playing well now

creating 18 chances is playing well. missing them isn't great

[yankyhibby]

I think he is a very good coach but I don't think he's cut out for this task sadly

Far, far too early in the season to come out with such a damning statement.

[PISTOL1875]

Everyone has an opinion....thats the game

I'm not for condemning him yet .....as there are good signs of change...however some of the problems persist ...we are too soft, we ran out of ideas about 60 mins in and it was obvious that changes needed to be made ....but we changed like for like players ..keeping the same shape to no avail. AS said he wanted us to have diff styles of play ....not obv yesterday...tho it is still early.

I get we have no money ...but do wonder whats happened to the season ticket money that was supposed to be ring fenced fir players ...it certainly hasn't gone there.

The so called bed wetters get a hard time on here ....but they say what they see and were ultimately proved right .....the last half of last season they were being told ..all is good ..one more result ........you're worrying about nothing .......it was obvious to a lot of fans ....it wasn't coming .

i suppose the the real question's are..how long before we should worry this time round...how will it get fixed....do we have realistic expectations....what's for breakfast ?


Agree with that post especially the part highlighted. I have seen HIbs play 4 at the back and also 3 at the back in pre-season.. I was hoping to see AS change the shape to a back 3 after about an hour when it was obvious we were getting nowhere.. Ok , we might have still lost but all the changes were like for like and nothing actually changed.