The execution of James Foley

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolutely deplorable act of barbarism.This organization needs to be wiped off the face of the earth now.

[Beefster]

Agreed. I think the fact that it was a Brit who did the beheading and that Foley seems to have been under no illusions about what was about to happen (if the reports are right) make it even more shocking, if that's possible.

To be fair, ISIS (or their current incarnation) should have been decimated when they were AQI and beheading non-Muslims on a regular basis.

[Sir David Gray]

Just seen the first part of the video.

There's no doubts at all in my mind that it's authentic. It was so sad seeing that poor man read out that statement, undoubtedly under duress, criticising his family and his country, knowing what was about to happen to him.

These people are pure evil $cum, there is really nothing else to say about them. Their tactics of extreme violence and fear are the worst I've ever come across and are actually difficult to comprehend.

It's even more troubling as a British person to hear that the executioner of Jim Foley is apparently a British national. How many others are there from this country who are going to Iraq and Syria to commit similar acts of brutality?

My thoughts are with Jim Foley's friends and family and also with the friends and family of Steven Sotloff, another American journalist who is also being held captive by Islamic State and who is also being threatened to face the same fate.

I sincerely hope and pray that these people can somehow be stopped before it's really too late.

[hibsbollah]

Words cant really describe that.

[Stranraer]

:agree: disgusting news to wake up to this morning. I haven't seen the video and don't plan on looking for it.

[Pretty Boy]

Indefensible behaviour by any standards of decency.

Not really anything else I can add.

[Hibbyradge]

This sort of thing is turning me into a frigging right winger.

I'm not one, but my attitude to these extremists has hardened considerably.

[Allant1981]

Seen the video earlier, really dont understand how these people can do that to another human being

[Sylar]

Seen the video earlier, really dont understand how these people can do that to another human being

I agree, but equally, I don't understand why any human being would want to watch that :confused:

[over the line]

It's difficult to believe that the vile creatures that carry out horrendous and inhuman acts like this, are the same species as me and you!

Couldn't or wouldn't want to watch footage of it. Just reading about it has made me uncontrollably frown and feel a bit sick.

[HappyAsHellas]

Seen the video earlier, really dont understand how these people can do that to another human being

The beheading of murderers and drug dealers etc is rather common in countries like Saudi where the law of Sharia is enforced. It shocks us here in the decadent west, and that is it's purpose.
I haven't watched the video, but understand this is what happens.

[Speedy]

I agree, but equally, I don't understand why any human being would want to watch that :confused:

I haven't watched it but I suppose some people may find it difficult to comment in full without watching it.

[Lofarl]

I've watched it. They don't actually show themselves doing the deed. It fades out before then comes back to his severed head on his body. One thing that stuck me was how calm the victim was. I know he was coerced into making his statement. But the guy has been held captive for nearly 2 years. I doubt in all that time he's had any good treatment. So he probably saw death as a release.

[Stranraer]

These people will never turn me into a right winger. Their barbarism comes for an ultra-conservative interpretation of their religion. Also, I thought the police in Britain said it was illegal to watch the video? :confused:

[over the line]

[QUOTE=

I wouldn't think it would be considered right wing to dislike any form of barbaric extremism anyway? I think monsters like them are fair game to openly dislike.

I think the footage should be banned and made illegal to watch (difficult to enforce admittedly) because the perpetrators want us to watch it don't they?

[Stranraer]

[QUOTE=

I wouldn't think it would be considered right wing to dislike any form of barbaric extremism anyway? I think monsters like them are fair game to openly dislike.

I think the footage should be banned and made illegal to watch (difficult to enforce admittedly) because the perpetrators want us to watch it don't they?

I thought it might fall under some sort of anti-extreme content law?

[over the line]

[QUOTE=
Yes it might do, certainly should do anyway. I suppose the difficulty would be the sheer numbers who may have viewed it, probably tens of thousands in the UK alone.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/20/police-warn-james-foley-video-crime-social-media

Don't be holding on to a copy of the footage (as if you'd want to).

[Future17]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/20/police-warn-james-foley-video-crime-social-media

Don't be holding on to a copy of the footage (as if you'd want to).

I wonder when the arrests will start at Whitehall and Downing Street.

[Allant1981]

I agree, but equally, I don't understand why any human being would want to watch that :confused:

Curiosity got the better of me, as someone else has said you dont actually see the actually thing, you see the start of it and the end, which was horrific enough for me

[Gatecrasher]

Curiosity got the better of me, as someone else has said you dont actually see the actually thing, you see the start of it and the end, which was horrific enough for me

I've watched some videos of people being killed etc, like you said the curiosity gets the better of you. I don't think I could watch a beheading though. I watched some like people being run over, US footage footage of the aftermath of the Nazi concentration camps (that one took me ages to get over).

In regards to ISIS, these people are sick and all they are doing is making the world their enemy and will likely be blown of the face of the planet. I never thought I would agree with UKIP and say the british members of ISIS should have their citizenship taken away from them.

[Beefster]

Curiosity got the better of me, as someone else has said you dont actually see the actually thing, you see the start of it and the end, which was horrific enough for me

I, foolishly, watched the Nick Berg video, which was one of the first Iraqi beheadings IIRC. Never again. One of the most horrific things I've ever seen.

[PeeJay]

It's bad enough that anyone would even want to watch a video of a beheading, but why is this video even on U-tube (or whatever platform it is on) - can't that be stopped? IS are only posting it for propaganda purposes - would anyone object to it no longer being available - or is it not possible to stop it from being shown? I'm in Germany, there are many, many U-tube postings I cannot watch here in Berlin (mainly music videos) because someone somewhere objects (some copyright issue, I guess) - surely someone, somewhere could stop this from being shown ... I know there are always ways of getting round things, but do we have to make it so easy for them?

[Stranraer]

It's bad enough that anyone would even want to watch a video of a beheading, but why is this video even on U-tube (or whatever platform it is on) - can't that be stopped? IS are only posting it for propaganda purposes - would anyone object to it no longer being available - or is it not possible to stop it from being shown? I'm in Germany, there are many, many U-tube postings I cannot watch here in Berlin (mainly music videos) because someone somewhere objects (some copyright issue, I guess) - surely someone, somewhere could stop this from being shown ... I know there are always ways of getting round things, but do we have to make it so easy for them?

I doubt it's on YouTube, more likely LiveLeak or some other gory video site.

[Speedy]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/20/police-warn-james-foley-video-crime-social-media

Don't be holding on to a copy of the footage (as if you'd want to).

Don't have a problem with them blocking the source of the video but while it's out there it's a disgrace if individuals get into bother for watching it imo.

[HappyAsHellas]

These videos are released to many western news agencies who will then show still images with a description. This alone ensures world wide coverage, whilst the like of social networking sites and you tube etc make sure everyone can view the whole thing. As a news release goes, it is rather effective.

[Hibbyradge]

These people will never turn me into a right winger. Their barbarism comes for an ultra-conservative interpretation of their religion. Also, I thought the police in Britain said it was illegal to watch the video? :confused:




I wouldn't think it would be considered right wing to dislike any form of barbaric extremism anyway? I think monsters like them are fair game to openly dislike.


I found myself recently hoping that we'd start bombing ISIS, and I was pleased when the US did.

I've never advocated such aggression before and I assume the left in this country will still oppose the US action, hence my right wing comments.

I agree with you, though, it really doesn't signal a change of my general political stance.

On on other, not entirely unrelated, subject, I see the Saudis beheaded a man for sorcery yesterday. Madness.

[wpj]

What I really object to apart from the appalling incident itself is that papers and websites have a series of stills both in their pages and on their websites that all but sho the murder. Who draws the line at what is shown or viewed?
I also se the sun has managed to trivialise the whole thing by naming the alleged killer as the Ali G jihadi, very crass and yet very normal in a sun kind of way. So sad.

[Stranraer]

I found myself recently hoping that we'd start bombing ISIS, and I was pleased when the US did.

I've never advocated such aggression before and I assume the left in this country will still oppose the US action, hence my right wing comments.

I agree with you, though, it really doesn't signal a change of my general political stance.

On on other, not entirely unrelated, subject, I see the Saudis beheaded a man for sorcery yesterday. Madness.

Fair enough. I must admit I was quite pleased to read that the US' strikes were having a huge negative impact on the IS too.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure what the left as a whole are saying about the air strikes but it wouldn't surprise me if large numbers of them are keeping quiet about it. Many of the so called lefties in Britain are as reactionary as can be.

[Stranraer]

Not that the SWP represent me or many other lefties but here is a piece from the Socialist worker opposing air strikes unsurprisingly.

http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/38804/The+West+launches+fresh+attacks+on+Iraq+in+bid+to+ regain+control

[over the line]

I found myself recently hoping that we'd start bombing ISIS, and I was pleased when the US did.

I've never advocated such aggression before and I assume the left in this country will still oppose the US action, hence my right wing comments.

I agree with you, though, it really doesn't signal a change of my general political stance.

On on other, not entirely unrelated, subject, I see the Saudis beheaded a man for sorcery yesterday. Madness.

I also think that military aggression has been and still is used too often in general, but these lot are just too dangerous and vile to be allowed to continue. Sometimes bombs etc are necessary, not many people can say bombs should never be used at all.

I don't agree with the death sentence really but I can understand how and why some nations like Saudi still use it. But beheading is such an unnecessary and barbaric act, don't understand why a rich development nation like the Saudis use that method?

[HappyAsHellas]

The method is used according to Sharia law which states beheading. In Saudi, people who are beheaded have the act carried out in the town/city/village where the offence ( usually murder ) was committed. That way, the local people who lost a member of their community or were plagued by drug dealers can see the justice being carried out for themselves. Having hands amputated is now carried out in hospitals so you can't say they aren't a caring bunch.

[over the line]

The method is used according to Sharia law which states beheading. In Saudi, people who are beheaded have the act carried out in the town/city/village where the offence ( usually murder ) was committed. That way, the local people who lost a member of their community or were plagued by drug dealers can see the justice being carried out for themselves. Having hands amputated is now carried out in hospitals so you can't say they aren't a caring bunch.

Some progress then? :eek:

[Pretty Boy]

With regards to beheading as a form of execution in Saudi Arabia is it really any more barbaric than lethal injections?

Obviously the idea of an execution taking place in public, outside the largest mosque in Riyadh after Friday prayers is the highlight, is pretty gruesome. As a spextacle it is likely to be very disturbing and the emotional pressure of being aware it is about to happen must be horrible. However when performed correctly it is quick, not in any way meant as a defence or 'positive' more a fact.

Contrast that to lethal injection. With the difficulty to obtain the correct drugs this can take several, excruciating, minutes to kill. There have been at least 2 cases this year of 30 minutes plus and at least one of almost an hour. There is still the emotional torment of knowing what is to come and the victims family being allowed to attend still makes it something of a gruesome spectacle.

When it comes to state sponsored murder I'm firmly of the belief that it's the act as opposed to how that act is carried out that should be condenmed.

[Stranraer]

With regards to beheading as a form of execution in Saudi Arabia is it really any more barbaric than lethal injections?

Obviously the idea of an execution taking place in public, outside the largest mosque in Riyadh after Friday prayers is the highlight, is pretty gruesome. As a spextacle it is likely to be very disturbing and the emotional pressure of being aware it is about to happen must be horrible. However when performed correctly it is quick, not in any way meant as a defence or 'positive' more a fact.

Contrast that to lethal injection. With the difficulty to obtain the correct drugs this can take several, excruciating, minutes to kill. There have been at least 2 cases this year of 30 minutes plus and at least one of almost an hour. There is still the emotional torment of knowing what is to come and the victims family being allowed to attend still makes it something of a gruesome spectacle.

When it comes to state sponsored murder I'm firmly of the belief that it's the act as opposed to how that act is carried out that should be condenmed.

I watched Werner Herzog's "Into the Abyss" and it really shed light on the brutality of the death penalty. The US seems to think it's okay to inject people with poison but when another country does it it's seen as barbaric.

[hibsbollah]

The method is used according to Sharia law which states beheading. In Saudi, people who are beheaded have the act carried out in the town/city/village where the offence ( usually murder ) was committed. That way, the local people who lost a member of their community or were plagued by drug dealers can see the justice being carried out for themselves. Having hands amputated is now carried out in hospitals so you can't say they aren't a caring bunch.

1. There is no such thing as 'sharia law'. The 'sharia' means 'the path' and refers to a multitude of different elements of civic life, including crime and punishment.
2. There is no commonly defined crime and punishment in 'sharia', anywhere. The legal system depends on the Government you live under. There is no 'sharia law' that calls for beheading and chopping off hands. Blame the tyrannical Saudi regime for that, nothing else.

[HappyAsHellas]

Most of the people who are going to get beheaded apparently have a lot of blood removed, leaving them weak and not in a position to struggle or object. Whilst it is obviously barbaric, I imagine the mental anguish of being strapped to a gurney whilst waiting half an hour or so for the drugs to come on down the line will be no picnic either.

[HappyAsHellas]

1. There is no such thing as 'sharia law'. The 'sharia' means 'the path' and refers to a multitude of different elements of civic life, including crime and punishment.
2. There is no commonly defined crime and punishment in 'sharia', anywhere. The legal system depends on the Government you live under. There is no 'sharia law' that calls for beheading and chopping off hands. Blame the tyrannical Saudi regime for that, nothing else.

When I lived and worked in Saudi, the locals I worked beside informed me of this. I had no reason to doubt them, but will stand corrected if that is the case.

[Hibrandenburg]

Let's please try and differentiate between the execution of criminals (FWIW I disagree with all executions) and the cold blooded murder of an innocent journalist in front of the camera and with the intention to spread fear and terror in an attempt to save their own murderous *****.

[hibsbollah]

When I lived and worked in Saudi, the locals I worked beside informed me of this. I had no reason to doubt them, but will stand corrected if that is the case.

There's no reason why you couldn't have a liberal, civil society under Islamic principles. The reason why there isnt one in existence on the planet is hard to answer, but id say its a combination of economics, post colonialist baggage, and bad luck. There's certainly nothing more or less violent and nutty in the Quran if you interpret it literally than there is in parts of the Bible.

[HappyAsHellas]

Found this on wikipedia:

The legal system of Saudi Arabia is based on Sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) law derived from the Qu'ran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu%27ran) and the Sunnah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnah) (the traditions) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). The sources of Sharia also include Islamic scholarly consensus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijma) developed after Muhammad's death and analogical reasoning by Muslim judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiyas). Its interpretation by judges in Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) is influenced by the medieval texts of the literalist Hanbali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali) school of Islamic jurisprudence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisprudence). Uniquely in the Muslim world, Sharia has been adopted by Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia) in an uncodified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codification_%28law%29) form. This, and the lack of judicial precedent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent), has resulted in considerable uncertainty in the scope and content of the country's laws. The government therefore announced its intention to codify Sharia in 2010, but this is yet to be implemented. Sharia has also been supplemented by regulations issued by royal decree covering modern issues such as intellectual property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property) and corporate law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_law). Nevertheless, Sharia remains the primary source of law, especially in areas such as criminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law), family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_law), commercial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_law) and contract law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_law), and the Qu'ran and the Sunnah are declared to be the country's constitution. In the areas of land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_law) and energy law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_law) the extensive proprietorial rights of the Saudi state (in effect, the Saudi royal family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saud)) constitute a significant feature.


As you say the old testament could be a bit on the gory side as well, but the Saudi's are quite proud of the fact that they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. As they attribute (practically) everything to God's will, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Stranraer]

Let's please try and differentiate between the execution of criminals (FWIW I disagree with all executions) and the cold blooded murder of an innocent journalist in front of the camera and with the intention to spread fear and terror in an attempt to save their own murderous *****.

America has killed plenty of innocent people as well - at home and abroad... in case you haven't noticed.

[Hibs Class]

America has killed plenty of innocent people as well - at home and abroad... in case you haven't noticed.


FWIW I agreed with hiberlin's point. Really, really struggling to understand what point you are trying to make by your post in response to quoting his?

[Stranraer]

FWIW I agreed with hiberlin's point. Really, really struggling to understand what point you are trying to make by your post in response to quoting his?

Well it was inevitable that someone would bring up Saudi Arabia, and I was replying in part to the death penalty question which PB posted. I was responding to Hiberlin... therefore I quoted him.

[Stranraer]

FWIW I agreed with hiberlin's point. Really, really struggling to understand what point you are trying to make by your post in response to quoting his?

i.e. America executes innocent people every year I also don't see the need for expletives.

[Hibrandenburg]

America has killed plenty of innocent people as well - at home and abroad... in case you haven't noticed.

Please tell me you're not trying to justify the barbaric murder of James Foley. It sounds very much so like it.

[Stranraer]

Please tell me you're not trying to justify the barbaric murder of James Foley. It sounds very much so like it.

Sorry if it came across that way - I am definitely not trying to justify his murder, it is barbaric and sickening. See a previous post of mine.

[Sir David Gray]

With regards to beheading as a form of execution in Saudi Arabia is it really any more barbaric than lethal injections?

Obviously the idea of an execution taking place in public, outside the largest mosque in Riyadh after Friday prayers is the highlight, is pretty gruesome. As a spextacle it is likely to be very disturbing and the emotional pressure of being aware it is about to happen must be horrible. However when performed correctly it is quick, not in any way meant as a defence or 'positive' more a fact.

Contrast that to lethal injection. With the difficulty to obtain the correct drugs this can take several, excruciating, minutes to kill. There have been at least 2 cases this year of 30 minutes plus and at least one of almost an hour. There is still the emotional torment of knowing what is to come and the victims family being allowed to attend still makes it something of a gruesome spectacle.

When it comes to state sponsored murder I'm firmly of the belief that it's the act as opposed to how that act is carried out that should be condenmed.

To fully answer the question you've posed in the opening line of your post there, you need to take a number of things into account.

Although I am personally still opposed to capital punishment (although my opposition to it is weakening as I get older), I think giving someone an injection of drugs which effectively just sends them to sleep and then stops the heart is a much more civilised method of capital punishment than taking someone into a town centre, allowing hundreds of people to gather round to watch whilst the executioner takes a sword to the condemned person's neck to decapitate them.

For the family of the condemned person, if your loved one has just been executed by a lethal injection then you can still view their body afterwards and say your goodbyes to them. How on Earth are you supposed to do that in Saudi Arabia when the body you're viewing has no head and there's blood pouring out of them?

From that point of view, yes I believe that beheading someone is much more barbaric than injecting a lethal cocktail of drugs into someone's veins.

Then you have to consider the crimes that are considered capital offences in both the USA and Saudi Arabia. In the USA, only people who are found guilty of pre-meditated murder are sentenced to death. In Saudi Arabia, people are beheaded for "crimes" such as witchcraft, apostasy and blasphemy.

Again, whilst I would still say that I disagree with all forms of capital punishment, I would certainly say that executing someone who has decided to follow a different religion or who doesn't agree with something that's written in the Qur'an is considerably more barbaric than executing someone who is guilty of mass murder.

Also in the last 7 years, according to Amnesty International, Saudi Arabia is one of just three countries on Earth (the other two being Iran and Yemen) which continues to execute people who committed their crimes as children, i.e. under 18.

Again, I would say that is a sign of barbarism.


Most of the people who are going to get beheaded apparently have a lot of blood removed, leaving them weak and not in a position to struggle or object. Whilst it is obviously barbaric, I imagine the mental anguish of being strapped to a gurney whilst waiting half an hour or so for the drugs to come on down the line will be no picnic either.

I wouldn't imagine it would be a picnic, however it is the intention that those who are put to death by lethal injection are effectively put to sleep before their death so that the pain they feel in the last moments before their death is minimal.

I know that there have a been a number of high profile cases in recent times where that hasn't happened and the execution has been botched and the condemned prisoner has been in a lot of pain prior to their death but that's not the intention of the USA justice system.

In Saudi Arabia, I don't believe there's much consideration for how the condemned person is feeling and how much pain they are in before or during their execution.


There's no reason why you couldn't have a liberal, civil society under Islamic principles. The reason why there isnt one in existence on the planet is hard to answer, but id say its a combination of economics, post colonialist baggage, and bad luck. There's certainly nothing more or less violent and nutty in the Quran if you interpret it literally than there is in parts of the Bible.

The problem is that within Islam, the political element to the religion is much more prevalent than it is in any of the other major world religions. The people who have interpreted the laws of the Qur'an and want to live under that system want to rule by fear and violence and they do not tolerate any other point of view. If anyone does dissent from that point of view, they murder them. That is what political Islam is all about.

Yes there are examples of extremist groups from other faiths, the Westboro Baptist Church being the one that springs to mind but whilst they are an extremely offensive bunch of people, they don't pose much of a threat to the existence of other human beings, in the way that most Islamist groups do.

[over the line]

With regards to beheading as a form of execution in Saudi Arabia is it really any more barbaric than lethal injections?

Obviously the idea of an execution taking place in public, outside the largest mosque in Riyadh after Friday prayers is the highlight, is pretty gruesome. As a spextacle it is likely to be very disturbing and the emotional pressure of being aware it is about to happen must be horrible. However when performed correctly it is quick, not in any way meant as a defence or 'positive' more a fact.

Contrast that to lethal injection. With the difficulty to obtain the correct drugs this can take several, excruciating, minutes to kill. There have been at least 2 cases this year of 30 minutes plus and at least one of almost an hour. There is still the emotional torment of knowing what is to come and the victims family being allowed to attend still makes it something of a gruesome spectacle.

When it comes to state sponsored murder I'm firmly of the belief that it's the act as opposed to how that act is carried out that should be condenmed.

I don't agree with capital punishment by governments either, as I don't think it serves as a deterrent and also because of the risk of convicting the wrong person! I think all of us have moments where we hear about an horrific, evil crime and think to our selves that life in prison just isn't enough. But still I am glad we don't have the death sentence here.

As for the method, I suppose there is no real favourable way if you are the subject. But given a choice, I certainly would choose lethal injection, over beheading and I think most people would? I think cutting someone's head off is not only killing them (obviously), its mutilating them and taking any last shread of dignity from them.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Fair enough. I must admit I was quite pleased to read that the US' strikes were having a huge negative impact on the IS too.

Edit: I'm not entirely sure what the left as a whole are saying about the air strikes but it wouldn't surprise me if large numbers of them are keeping quiet about it. Many of the so called lefties in Britain are as reactionary as can be.

Left wing, pacifist, and proud of it ...... But sometimes a situation transcends these things and this is one. IS only understand one thing and that is enforcement of their aims through the bomb, the bullet, appalling murder and inhuman brutality, it appears they cannot be reasoned with. If the only answer to their evil is utter destruction through the use of arms then that's what must be done.

The reason for their rise is incidental at this stage ........... If your house is on fire you put it out first before you start arguing about who dropped a fag or didn't wire a plug properly.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I don't agree with capital punishment by governments either, as I don't think it serves as a deterrent and also because of the risk of convicting the wrong person! I think all of us have moments where we hear about an horrific, evil crime and think to our selves that life in prison just isn't enough. But still I am glad we don't have the death sentence here.

As for the method, I suppose there is no real favourable way if you are the subject. But given a choice, I certainly would choose lethal injection, over beheading and I think most people would? I think cutting someone's head off is not only killing them (obviously), its mutilating them and taking any last shread of dignity from them.

Have a look on Google for botched lethal injections. No doctor or nurse will take part due to the hippocratic oath and as a result the condemned often suffer a long slow lingering and agonising death.

Better to die a quick undignified death than that barbarity ......... anyway who cares about dignity when they are dead?

For the record, like you I am utterly opposed to the death penalty for any reason. For one thing its not punishment, its revenge. For another, if killing is condoned by society it cheapens life and perpetuates the problem. Finally ( and this is not a consideration for me ) it just doesn't bloody well work .......... as retribution yes ....... as a deterrent not to commit murder ......... obviously not.

[hibsbollah]

To fully answer the question you've posed in the opening line of your post there, you need to take a number of things into account.

Although I am personally still opposed to capital punishment (although my opposition to it is weakening as I get older), I think giving someone an injection of drugs which effectively just sends them to sleep and then stops the heart is a much more civilised method of capital punishment than taking someone into a town centre, allowing hundreds of people to gather round to watch whilst the executioner takes a sword to the condemned person's neck to decapitate them.

For the family of the condemned person, if your loved one has just been executed by a lethal injection then you can still view their body afterwards and say your goodbyes to them. How on Earth are you supposed to do that in Saudi Arabia when the body you're viewing has no head and there's blood pouring out of them?

From that point of view, yes I believe that beheading someone is much more barbaric than injecting a lethal cocktail of drugs into someone's veins.

Then you have to consider the crimes that are considered capital offences in both the USA and Saudi Arabia. In the USA, only people who are found guilty of pre-meditated murder are sentenced to death. In Saudi Arabia, people are beheaded for "crimes" such as witchcraft, apostasy and blasphemy.

Again, whilst I would still say that I disagree with all forms of capital punishment, I would certainly say that executing someone who has decided to follow a different religion or who doesn't agree with something that's written in the Qur'an is considerably more barbaric than executing someone who is guilty of mass murder.

Also in the last 7 years, according to Amnesty International, Saudi Arabia is one of just three countries on Earth (the other two being Iran and Yemen) which continues to execute people who committed their crimes as children, i.e. under 18.

Again, I would say that is a sign of barbarism.



I wouldn't imagine it would be a picnic, however it is the intention that those who are put to death by lethal injection are effectively put to sleep before their death so that the pain they feel in the last moments before their death is minimal.

I know that there have a been a number of high profile cases in recent times where that hasn't happened and the execution has been botched and the condemned prisoner has been in a lot of pain prior to their death but that's not the intention of the USA justice system.

In Saudi Arabia, I don't believe there's much consideration for how the condemned person is feeling and how much pain they are in before or during their execution.



The problem is that within Islam, the political element to the religion is much more prevalent than it is in any of the other major world religions. The people who have interpreted the laws of the Qur'an and want to live under that system want to rule by fear and violence and they do not tolerate any other point of view. If anyone does dissent from that point of view, they murder them. That is what political Islam is all about.

Yes there are examples of extremist groups from other faiths, the Westboro Baptist Church being the one that springs to mind but whilst they are an extremely offensive bunch of people, they don't pose much of a threat to the existence of other human beings, in the way that most Islamist groups do.

I think we're in danger of just going over people's individual prejudices that regular users of the holy ground will be well aware of.

[Ants]

The method is used according to Sharia law which states beheading. In Saudi, people who are beheaded have the act carried out in the town/city/village where the offence ( usually murder ) was committed. That way, the local people who lost a member of their community or were plagued by drug dealers can see the justice being carried out for themselves. Having hands amputated is now carried out in hospitals so you can't say they aren't a caring bunch.

Its referred to by us Westerners out here in KSA as "Chop Chop Friday" and we are more than welcome to attend!! :hmmm:
There has recently been an increase in legal beheading and also death by firing squad.
One source of reporting on the crimes and the outcome is Arabnews.com which is referred to as "The Green Truth".
One thing is for sure, if you commit the crime, you will know what the most likely outcome will be :rolleyes::chop:

[HappyAsHellas]

Its referred to by us Westerners out here in KSA as "Chop Chop Friday"
One thing is for sure, if you commit the crime, you will know what the most likely outcome will be :rolleyes::chop:

When I was there, up in KKMC it was referred to as "the topping news" every Friday. Never saw one myself although the public floggings were quite brutal to see. Always found it sort of bizarre that they get all the kids round to watch.

[Ants]

When I was there, up in KKMC it was referred to as "the topping news" every Friday. Never saw one myself although the public floggings were quite brutal to see. Always found it sort of bizarre that they get all the kids round to watch.

I would go and see one, but they are a rare occurrence up here in the hills and we only hear about them after the event.

From Today's Arab News:-
A Saudi man was beheaded for murder on Friday. Othman al-Balawi was executed in the northwestern city of Tabuk, an Interior Ministry statement carried by the Saudi Press Agency said.
He had been sentenced to death for stabbing to death fellow Saudi Ahmed Al-Atawi following a dispute.
His execution came hours after another Saudi, Fahad Al-Khalidi, was beheaded in the eastern port city of Jubail for the shooting death of fellow national, Abdulrahman Al-Qahtani.
The latest beheadings bring to 37 the number of executions carried out in Saudi Arabia this year, according to an AFP tally.
Rape, murder, apostasy, armed robbery and drug trafficking are all punishable by death under the Kingdom's law.

[Betty Boop]

The other captured journalist, Peter Theo Curtis, has been released in Syria, after negotiations by Qatar.

[Stranraer]

1. There is no such thing as 'sharia law'. The 'sharia' means 'the path' and refers to a multitude of different elements of civic life, including crime and punishment.
2. There is no commonly defined crime and punishment in 'sharia', anywhere. The legal system depends on the Government you live under. There is no 'sharia law' that calls for beheading and chopping off hands. Blame the tyrannical Saudi regime for that, nothing else.

Well said, I know it's commonly used as a term but Muslims refer to their law as the Shariah.

[(((Fergus)))]

With regards to beheading as a form of execution in Saudi Arabia is it really any more barbaric than lethal injections?

Obviously the idea of an execution taking place in public, outside the largest mosque in Riyadh after Friday prayers is the highlight, is pretty gruesome. As a spextacle it is likely to be very disturbing and the emotional pressure of being aware it is about to happen must be horrible. However when performed correctly it is quick, not in any way meant as a defence or 'positive' more a fact.

Contrast that to lethal injection. With the difficulty to obtain the correct drugs this can take several, excruciating, minutes to kill. There have been at least 2 cases this year of 30 minutes plus and at least one of almost an hour. There is still the emotional torment of knowing what is to come and the victims family being allowed to attend still makes it something of a gruesome spectacle.

When it comes to state sponsored murder I'm firmly of the belief that it's the act as opposed to how that act is carried out that should be condenmed.

Yes, and when the US starts executing people for sorcery the moral equivalence will be complete.

[Pretty Boy]

Yes, and when the US starts executing people for sorcery the moral equivalence will be complete.

I wasn't making a moral comparison. I'm firmly of the belief capital punishment is wrong regardless of crime committed.

I certainly wasn't intending to use the Saudi leagal system as an example that others, the US or otherwise, should aspire to.

[Sylar]

The other captured journalist, Peter Theo Curtis, has been released in Syria, after negotiations by Qatar.

That is indeed good news. One can only hope it didn't come at the cost of a very heavy ransom, thus further funding their war machine even further...

[(((Fergus)))]

That is indeed good news. One can only hope it didn't come at the cost of a very heavy ransom, thus further funding their war machine even further...

It also means that Qatar has leverage not only over FIFA but also over ISIS, both financial.

[Sir David Gray]

Sadly, it would seem that Islamic State terrorists have carried out their threat to behead American journalist Steven Sotloff.

I'm really shocked by how wicked this group actually is.

[Stranraer]

Sadly, it would seem that Islamic State terrorists have carried out their threat to behead American journalist Steven Sotloff.

I'm really shocked by how wicked this group actually is.

:agree: Absolutely vile bunch of people, apparently they have a Briton held hostage as well?

[DH1875]

Can someone who understands what's going on explain to me why they let the guy go last week but killed this guy this week.

[overdrive]

Can someone who understands what's going on explain to me why they let the guy go last week but killed this guy this week.

It was a different Islamic group that held Theo Curtis. I think concessions were made to them for his release.

[Sir David Gray]

Can someone who understands what's going on explain to me why they let the guy go last week but killed this guy this week.

Who are you referring to?

It may be down to their respective nationalities.

Steven Sotloff and James Foley were both American citizens and as far as IS members are concerned, the USA is their biggest enemy. They wanted to taunt the American government and they know that the Americans won't enter into any sort of negotiations with regards to a prisoner swap or any kind of financial arrangement either. The only options open to them is to either release them without gaining anything in return (which they won't do) or kill them.

Hostages from other countries perhaps don't have the same "appeal" to those within IS and there are also numerous countries which do agree various deals to confirm the release of their citizens. That may go some way to explaining the difference here although I'm not too sure who it is that you're referring to with regards to the hostage that they released last week.

[overdrive]

Who are you referring to?

It may be down to their respective nationalities.

Steven Sotloff and James Foley were both American citizens and as far as IS members are concerned, the USA is their biggest enemy. They wanted to taunt the American government and they know that the Americans won't enter into any sort of negotiations with regards to a prisoner swap or any kind of financial arrangement either. The only options open to them is to either release them without gaining anything in return (which they won't do) or kill them.

Hostages from other countries perhaps don't have the same "appeal" to those within IS and there are also numerous countries which do agree various deals to confirm the release of their citizens. That may go some way to explaining the difference here although I'm not too sure who it is that you're referring to with regards to the hostage that they released last week.

I think he/she is referring to Theo Curtis who is American. It wasn't IS that he was being held by but rather Jabhat al Nusra.

The government and family denied paying a ransom but Qatar was involved in his release and they have a history of paying ransoms.

[DH1875]

I think he/she is referring to Theo Curtis who is American. It wasn't IS that he was being held by but rather Jabhat al Nusra.

The government and family denied paying a ransom but Qatar was involved in his release and they have a history of paying ransoms.

Yeah, thats the guy. My mistake, thought they were linked. Seems not. Explains why they let him go though.

[Sir David Gray]

Yeah, thats the guy. My mistake, thought they were linked. Seems not. Explains why they let him go though.

:aok: Yeah, to be honest IS seems to be on a different scale altogether, compared with any other terrorist organisation in the world, past or present.

They are the most barbaric and wicked group that I'm aware of and I wouldn't like the chances of anyone who's being held hostage by them, coming out alive.

This group makes al Qaeda look almost moderate in comparison and that's saying something.

[overdrive]

:aok: Yeah, to be honest IS seems to be on a different scale altogether, compared with any other terrorist organisation in the world, past or present.

They are the most barbaric and wicked group that I'm aware of and I wouldn't like the chances of anyone who's being held hostage by them, coming out alive.

This group makes al Qaeda look almost moderate in comparison and that's saying something.


Al Qaeda have denounced them and I think they have condemned the recent beheadings of American journalists though I'm not 100% certain on that.

As somebody who was in support of the Iraq war, in hindsight, Saddam was probably the lesser of two evils.

[lapsedhibee]

Al Qaeda have denounced them and I think they have condemned the recent beheadings of American journalists though I'm not 100% certain on that.

As somebody who was in support of the Iraq war, in hindsight, Saddam was probably the lesser of two evils.

Haven't been following everything too closely, but wasn't that basically gorgeous George's point all along, that getting rid of Saddam would unleash unstoppably bad stuff?

[HappyAsHellas]

Saddam was a brutal dictator who kept the differing factions imprisoned or dead. No one dared vent their spleen because the repercussions were too brutal. At the end of the first war, Saddam was left alive for this very reason. Why Bush junior and Tony Blair thought otherwise is beyond belief.

[Sir David Gray]

Al Qaeda have denounced them and I think they have condemned the recent beheadings of American journalists though I'm not 100% certain on that.

As somebody who was in support of the Iraq war, in hindsight, Saddam was probably the lesser of two evils.

I think the main issue they have with IS is that they are aiming to topple al-Qaeda and become the number one Jihadist group in the world. Al-Qaeda feels threatened by them and that's pretty much why they don't like them.

[Big Ed]

Saddam was a brutal dictator who kept the differing factions imprisoned or dead. No one dared vent their spleen because the repercussions were too brutal. At the end of the first war, Saddam was left alive for this very reason. Why Bush junior and Tony Blair thought otherwise is beyond belief.

The US Government actively encouraged the Iraqi people to stage a coup against Saddam immediately after the first Gulf War. The Iraqi forces had been routed and had also suffered heavy losses in the long war with Iran which had ended only a few years previously.

Initially the uprisings were successful, but the tide turned and Saddam’s forces wreaked terrible vengeance.

The rebels then expected the US to intervene, thinking they had their backing, but it is believed that the Americans thought Iraqi Shia insurgents were aligned with Iranian Islamists, and the necessary help never arrived, at a cost of as many as 230,000 (mainly civilian) lives.

[HappyAsHellas]

At the time I worked with the Saudi army, on a contract through the American army. At the end most of the soldiers seemed pretty shocked that they weren't getting to finish the job, as it were. They told us that the word from the top was "better the devil you know". It has to be said that the amount of propaganda during this time was bewildering - you never knew what to believe, or who. Hindsight eh?

[Big Ed]

At the time I worked with the Saudi army, on a contract through the American army. At the end most of the soldiers seemed pretty shocked that they weren't getting to finish the job, as it were. They told us that the word from the top was "better the devil you know". It has to be said that the amount of propaganda during this time was bewildering - you never knew what to believe, or who. Hindsight eh?

An uprising against Saddam, a Sunni in charge of a Shia majority, was bound to bring Iran, the Shia nation into the game.

Similarly, the Kurds have been looking for independence, not only from Iraq, but Turkey, which plays an enormous strategic role in NATO. Pissing the Turks off can’t have been on the agenda.

The Sunni, under Saddam, would have held most of the positions of power whilst he ran the show: if the uprising had been successful, they’d have expected to have been persecuted.

All of these facts would have been common knowledge, and the risk of Civil War must have been obvious.

As we know, nature abhors a vacuum: but Jihadi’s love them.

What were the American intelligence agencies thinking about?

[HappyAsHellas]

If I remember correctly, there were a lot of rumours flying around that Saddam had actually contacted the Americans for the go ahead to invade Kuwait, as they had been angle drilling the Iraqi oil fields for years during the Iran/Iraq war. This would put America as instigators of the whole shooting match, and at best, a very dubious agenda. (apologies for straying off topic)

[Mr Grieves]

They've now executed Scottish charity worker, David Haines.

[Sir David Gray]

They've now executed Scottish charity worker, David Haines.

Evil $cumbags.

This wicked organisation needs to be stopped as soon as possible.

Immediate military intervention is required.

[Mon Dieu4]

They've now executed Scottish charity worker, David Haines.

I'm all for everyone getting along and know the theory of taking action will empower others to take up their cause but sometimes you get a shower of evil ***** that come along that just need blown off the face of the earth, I really hope each and every one of those mentalists gets wiped out

[Big Ed]

Evil $cumbags.

This wicked organisation needs to be stopped as soon as possible.

Immediate military intervention is required.

Simple as that: what could possibly go wrong?

[Sir David Gray]

Simple as that: what could possibly go wrong?

I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

Just to clarify my position.

The situation that we find ourselves in with this group is intolerable. It must be stopped by any means necessary.

We can't have British citizens, who are in the region to actually help the people of Iraq and Syria, being kidnapped and then being paraded in front of a camera before being beheaded.

Apparently there is another British man, who has been shown in the video of David Haines' murder, who they are going to kill next. This is just unacceptable and has to stop.

Not just that but the ordinary people of Iraq and Syria, who live in the areas that IS has taken over, are being butchered, tortured and humiliated on a daily basis and people are being forced to flee for their lives.

The British government needs to use any force that is available to them to wipe this evil organisation off the face of the Earth.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

Just to clarify my position.

The situation that we find ourselves in with this group is intolerable. It must be stopped by any means necessary.

We can't have British citizens, who are in the region to actually help the people of Iraq and Syria, being kidnapped and then being paraded in front of a camera before being beheaded.

Apparently there is another British man, who has been shown in the video of David Haines' murder, who they are going to kill next. This is just unacceptable and has to stop.

Not just that but the ordinary people of Iraq and Syria, who live in the areas that IS has taken over, are being butchered, tortured and humiliated on a daily basis and people are being forced to flee for their lives.

The British government needs to use any force that is available to them to wipe this evil organisation off the face of the Earth.

The problem is that we have precedent. The response of the West to 9/11 was to hit Al-qaeda with full force in Afghanistan. In terms of defeating them, that was a failure. It also succeeded in being a recruiting-call for AQ.

AQ has only been degraded by using means other than conventional.

The West would be well-advised to learn the lessons from that experience.

[Sir David Gray]

The problem is that we have precedent. The response of the West to 9/11 was to hit Al-qaeda with full force in Afghanistan. In terms of defeating them, that was a failure. It also succeeded in being a recruiting-call for AQ.

AQ has only been degraded by using means other than conventional.

The West would be well-advised to learn the lessons from that experience.

The difference in Afghanistan back in 2001 was that the Taliban were actually the national government at the time and they were allowing members of al-Qaeda to use Afghanistan as a safe haven in order to plan and orchestrate attacks. The forces who invaded Afghanistan after 9/11 not only had al-Qaeda to deal with but also had to try and overthrow a government who wanted to protect al-Qaeda.

In Iraq and also Syria, IS itself is trying to overthrow the governments in those countries. I realise the situation in Syria is a bit more complicated given that the West initially wanted to remove Assad but they'll certainly not face the sort of government opposition to any invasion that they faced in 2001 when they went into Afghanistan.

I honestly don't see any alternative to this. What we're seeing here with IS in Iraq and Syria is akin to the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s. This isn't a problem that is confined to a far flung land thousands of miles away and therefore nothing for us to worry about. Islamic extremism is something I've always been particularly concerned about but I feel that IS are taking things to an unprecedented level and David Cameron and Barack Obama along with the leaders of every other responsible nation need to tackle this cancer with everything they have at their disposal.

No options should be off limits.

[Big Ed]

I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

Just to clarify my position.

The situation that we find ourselves in with this group is intolerable. It must be stopped by any means necessary.

We can't have British citizens, who are in the region to actually help the people of Iraq and Syria, being kidnapped and then being paraded in front of a camera before being beheaded.

Apparently there is another British man, who has been shown in the video of David Haines' murder, who they are going to kill next. This is just unacceptable and has to stop.

Not just that but the ordinary people of Iraq and Syria, who live in the areas that IS has taken over, are being butchered, tortured and humiliated on a daily basis and people are being forced to flee for their lives.

The British government needs to use any force that is available to them to wipe this evil organisation off the face of the Earth.

My point is that you are suggesting that the UK government resort to military intervention, which has proved to be, at best, counterproductive and at worst, catastrophic for those who live there.

ISIS/ISIL/IS must be eliminated, on that we agree, but we need to have other neighbouring countries explicitly saying that they want these zealots crushed too. That requires urgent diplomacy and that would take time.

Our government could also actively seek support from Syria and Iran to tackle the problem, a gesture which would show how serious we were about eliminating this scourge of humanity: I suspect there is more chance of ISIS booking their Christmas night out in the upstairs lounge at the Hibs Club.

[Sir David Gray]

My point is that you are suggesting that the UK government resort to military intervention, which has proved to be, at best, counterproductive and at worst, catastrophic for those who live there.

ISIS/ISIL/IS must be eliminated, on that we agree, but we need to have other neighbouring countries explicitly saying that they want these zealots crushed too. That requires urgent diplomacy and that would take time.

Our government could also actively seek support from Syria and Iran to tackle the problem, a gesture which would show how serious we were about eliminating this scourge of humanity: I suspect there is more chance of ISIS booking their Christmas night out in the upstairs lounge at the Hibs Club.

Can it possibly be any more counterproductive or catastrophic for those who live there than the status quo?

They are routinely murdering non-Muslims, kidnapping and raping women, forcing people like those from the Yazidi community to convert to their form of Islam and in general they are depriving people of the most basic human rights.

There are numerous countries in the region who have said that they support action against IS. I think these countries have the most to lose if IS spreads into their countries so it's very much in their interests to obliterate IS.

[Big Ed]

Can it possibly be any more counterproductive or catastrophic for those who live there than the status quo?

They are routinely murdering non-Muslims, kidnapping and raping women, forcing people like those from the Yazidi community to convert to their form of Islam and in general they are depriving people of the most basic human rights.

There are numerous countries in the region who have said that they support action against IS. I think these countries have the most to lose if IS spreads into their countries so it's very much in their interests to obliterate IS.

It is almost 13 years to the day since Bin Laden flew planes into the World Trade Center, prompting the US administration to declare a War on Terror: it has been an unmitigated disaster.

What we have right now is an extreme variation of Sunni jihadis effectively acting as the de facto government in the Sunni part of Iraq.

Men of fighting age are signing up for IS, partly out of fear of reprisals and partly because of the fact that the hated Shia administration in Baghdad have been dispatched by a fighting force which has been remarkably successful.

Turkey has kept its border with Syria open, effectively allowing free passage to IS and Saudi Arabia are only cracking down on militants in their own country, turning a blind eye to those fighting abroad.

Their motives, like ours, the Americans and the Russians, are utterly selfish. Sending in a US/UK force might satisfy a lust for vengeance, but it needs to be coordinated in such a way as to ensure that ordinary people in Iraq and Syria feel that we have their back and not bursting in as opportunistic bullies.

We need to learn from our mistakes: not amplify them.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405

A video purporting to show the beheading of British hostage Alan Henning has been released by Islamic State militants.



poor man, just trying to help people

[Hibrandenburg]

I hope we throw everything we have at them. This is the new fascism and needs to be fought with everything we have. Hell mend them.

[stoneyburn hibs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405

A video purporting to show the beheading of British hostage Alan Henning has been released by Islamic State militants.



poor man, just trying to help people





absolutely f***ing bogging, where do those that help go from here ?

[Sir David Gray]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405

A video purporting to show the beheading of British hostage Alan Henning has been released by Islamic State militants.



poor man, just trying to help people





Absolutely despicable.

If these ******** can murder someone like Alan Henning then no-one is safe.

We need to fight this evil with every possible option that is available to us. I wouldn't take any option off the table.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Absolutely despicable.

If these ******** can murder someone like Alan Henning then no-one is safe.

We need to fight this evil with every possible option that is available to us. I wouldn't take any option off the table.

Does that include Nukes?

[Sir David Gray]

Does that include Nukes?

I will support whatever action the government deems necessary to defeat this evil, fascist $cum.

[CB_NO3]

I will support whatever action the government deems necessary to defeat this evil, fascist $cum.
Pitty the British Government will sit back and let the Yanks dictate the next step because in the grand scheme of things, we are not that powerful. I wish Obama had more balls. Never been a fan of America's foreign policies but now is time to wipe this evil monster from this planet.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I will support whatever action the government deems necessary to defeat this evil, fascist $cum.

Sounds like you're very upset Trig. Surely there must be some concern over the aftermath? We could win but be worse off.

[Sir David Gray]

Sounds like you're very upset Trig. Surely there must be some concern over the aftermath? We could win but be worse off.

We cannot have British citizens being paraded on the internet and then being beheaded when their only "crime" is going to Syria and Iraq to help those most in need and highlight their plight. They're not there to occupy or invade Muslim lands, their only intention was to help people.

People who think it's acceptable to murder good people like Alan Henning must be stopped by any means possible.

We're not talking about people who have any reasonable demands or room for any kind of diplomacy. They murder, torture, rape and humiliate anyone that they don't like the look of and that's what makes them so dangerous.

They are modern day Nazis and have to be defeated, no matter what.

[Phil D. Rolls]

We cannot have British citizens being paraded on the internet and then being beheaded when their only "crime" is going to Syria and Iraq to help those most in need and highlight their plight. They're not there to occupy or invade Muslim lands, their only intention was to help people.

People who think it's acceptable to murder good people like Alan Henning must be stopped by any means possible.

We're not talking about people who have any reasonable demands or room for any kind of diplomacy. They murder, torture, rape and humiliate anyone that they don't like the look of and that's what makes them so dangerous.

They are modern day Nazis and have to be defeated, no matter what.

OK, but I think you're letting your anger cloud your thinking.

[CB_NO3]

We cannot have British citizens being paraded on the internet and then being beheaded when their only "crime" is going to Syria and Iraq to help those most in need and highlight their plight. They're not there to occupy or invade Muslim lands, their only intention was to help people.

People who think it's acceptable to murder good people like Alan Henning must be stopped by any means possible.

We're not talking about people who have any reasonable demands or room for any kind of diplomacy. They murder, torture, rape and humiliate anyone that they don't like the look of and that's what makes them so dangerous.

They are modern day Nazis and have to be defeated, no matter what.
Its a battle than can never be won IMO. This goes on in Saudi Arabia on a daily basis. They are an apparent ally to the Brits and the Yanks. This goes on in Somalia, DR of Congo and Central Africa on a daily basis and the west could not care less because they are poor countries.

If ISIL are defeated it will only pave way for a new extremist group to form. This is a war that can never be won IMO.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its a battle than can never be won IMO. This goes on in Saudi Arabia on a daily basis. They are an apparent ally to the Brits and the Yanks. This goes on in Somalia, DR of Congo and Central Africa on a daily basis and the west could not care less because they are poor countries.

If ISIL are defeated it will only pave way for a new extremist group to form. This is a war that can never be won IMO.

What do you suggest then, give up? Sit Back and let them set up their Islamic state and massacre every Shia muslim and Christian and every other minority in Iraq and Syria after which they will set about spreading their evil and perverted idea of Islam to the rest of the world through terrorism and violence. Yes Saudi Arabia executes people in that fashion ... its disgusting, but at least there is a pretence of a code of justice for supposed crimes.

These betrayers of Islam, these betrayers of mankind kill people because they attach no level of humanity to anyone not of the same mind as them ....... they slaughter people like animals with no thought of mercy, men, women, children it makes no difference. This man was a man of peace, a man whose only thought was to do good and help people .... pleas for mercy came from his family and worldwide from muslim clerics including Sunni muslims and yet still they killed him.

I do not believe in violence as a way to solve the worlds problems ... I am bitterly opposed to it. But sometimes an evil is so perverse, so undeniable that it must be stopped by whatever means possible. A few years ago I visited Auschwitz and looked at a glass case the length of a room and 8 feet high which contained pairs of spectacles piled more than 6 feet high for the whole length of the case which was about 6 feet deep.

I can see no difference between the ideology which caused that and ISIS .... Anybody who fights for them or who supports them is a blight on the face of the earth ... they are an abomination and must be stopped.

[Pretty Boy]

What do you suggest then, give up? Sit Back and let them set up their Islamic state and massacre every Shia muslim and Christian and every other minority in Iraq and Syria after which they will set about spreading their evil and perverted idea of Islam to the rest of the world through terrorism and violence. Yes Saudi Arabia executes people in that fashion ... its disgusting, but at least there is a pretence of a code of justice for supposed crimes.

These betrayers of Islam, these betrayers of mankind kill people because they attach no level of humanity to anyone not of the same mind as them ....... they slaughter people like animals with no thought of mercy, men, women, children it makes no difference. This man was a man of peace, a man whose only thought was to do good and help people .... pleas for mercy came from his family and worldwide from muslim clerics including Sunni muslims and yet still they killed him.

I do not believe in violence as a way to solve the worlds problems ... I am bitterly opposed to it. But sometimes an evil is so perverse, so undeniable that it must be stopped by whatever means possible. A few years ago I visited Auschwitz and looked at a glass case the length of a room and 8 feet high which contained pairs of spectacles piled more than 6 feet high for the whole length of the case which was about 6 feet deep.

I can see no difference between the ideology which caused that and ISIS .... Anybody who fights for them or who supports them is a blight on the face of the earth ... they are an abomination and must be stopped.

Spot on.

Sadly I do agree with CB_NO3 to an extent as well though. 'Defeating' IS only paves the way for the next twisted version of a similar ideology to come along and fill the void. It's a horrible cycle.

[hibsbollah]

A massively depressing event and an unspeakably evil act.

Hopefully the outraged reaction of muslim groups round the world today, including many who would normally be described as radical, will help further marginalise IS.

[CB_NO3]

What do you suggest then, give up? Sit Back and let them set up their Islamic state and massacre every Shia muslim and Christian and every other minority in Iraq and Syria after which they will set about spreading their evil and perverted idea of Islam to the rest of the world through terrorism and violence. Yes Saudi Arabia executes people in that fashion ... its disgusting, but at least there is a pretence of a code of justice for supposed crimes.

These betrayers of Islam, these betrayers of mankind kill people because they attach no level of humanity to anyone not of the same mind as them ....... they slaughter people like animals with no thought of mercy, men, women, children it makes no difference. This manq was a man of peace, a man whose only thought was to do good and help people .... pleas for mercy came from his family and worldwide from muslim clerics including Sunni muslims and yet still they killed him.

I do not believe in violence as a way to solve the worlds problems ... I am bitterly opposed to it. But sometimes an evil is so perverse, so undeniable that it must be stopped by whatever means possible. A few years ago I visited Auschwitz and looked at a glass case the length of a room and 8 feet high which contained pairs of spectacles piled more than 6 feet high for the whole length of the case which was about 6 feet deep.

I can see no difference between the ideology which caused that and ISIS .... Anybody who fights for them or who supports them is a blight on the face of the earth ... they are an abomination and must be stopped.

If you see my above post, you will see I wrote that am not a fan of the yanks foreign policies but am all for them stopping this evil group. So in theory I am agreeing with you that ISIL need stopped. I just dont know what the long term plan is.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If you see my above post, you will see I wrote that am not a fan of the yanks foreign policies but am all for them stopping this evil group. So in theory I am agreeing with you that ISIL need stopped. I just dont know what the long term plan is.

It was only the last bit of your post that I was in disagreement with CB-NO3.

The Americans and UK have caused as many problems as they have solved. I also agree that every time we get involved in the middle east the people we go in to depose are replaced by something worse. But for once this seems to be a case of what could be worse than this.

The thought that these fanatics could establish a functioning state makes my blood run cold ..... I'm sure every western leader feels the same.