Alan Brazil (re. Robin Williams)

[AngusHibby]

Deary me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqgLwDRdfvw#t=124

[scuttle]

Deary me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqgLwDRdfvw#t=124

The man is a buffoon

[GordonHFC]

Fat oaf.

[Elephant Stone]

"Thank God it wasn't Robbie" :applause:

[The_Horde]

What an arse.

[Bronson]

Tosser, ridiculous thing to come out and say on the radio - and I don't just mean the 'questionable' remark about Mrs Doubtfire!

All joking aside, rotten words from Alan, very disrespectful about a man who gave so many people so much happiness.

[Stranraer]

The guy is an idiot... as are many of the YouTubers who commented on that video. Disgraceful.

[BH Hibs]

What a fat clueless prick.

[blackpoolhibs]

I was sent an email from someone at talksport, who told me my emails to him would not get through anymore. He spouts the biggest load of sheite about Scottish football, he knows **** all about it and just wants the bigot fest back because that's whats good for the game in Scotland.

An arse of a human being.

[easty]

I find suicide a selfish act, so I suppose I sort of agree with him. I would never say I don't have sympathy for it though. It's obviously extremely tragic.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not defending Brazil by any means, but I am guessing that he hasn't had his life touched by depression.

However, I know from my own experiences that any time my own depression has led me down the path that Williams has just walked, the one thing that has stopped me has been the thought of what is left behind. And it's that feeling of "I can't be so selfish" that has ultimately been the barrier.

Brazil seems like a dinosaur, or may indeed be trolling, but it's a discussion worth having IMO.

[Billy Whizz]

I find suicide a selfish act, so I suppose I sort of agree with him. I would never say I don't have sympathy for it though. It's obviously extremely tragic.

Looking from the outside it probably is. But if you're in that person's mind, there's probably nothing else they can do, a tragic position to be in

[Bronson]

I find suicide a selfish act, so I suppose I sort of agree with him. I would never say I don't have sympathy for it though. It's obviously extremely tragic.

Personally I think that you'd have to be in such an incredibly dark place to top yourself, that it's difficult to call that selfish.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

When you are THAT depressed, all rationality goes out the window and it's impossible to think straight. The "snap out of it" attitude is outdated and serves no purpose at all.

[TheFamous1875]

I think Brazil should be made an example of in the media for this, see how he likes it.

It's his outdated attitude that makes suicide seem a more viable option for people with problems. They feel guilt for feeling depressed because of ignoramuses like Brazil. It's ****ing shocking him coming out with **** like that.

As a society, we need to make his kind of attitude a thing of the past with as much effort against racism, homophobia and ignorance.

He may have not had his own experience if depression and for that he'd be a very lucky man, but you don't have to be gay to not be a homophobe, and you don't have to be a minority to know that prejudice is wrong.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Billychaotic182]

It's a horrible horrible thing to leave for your family but it's also a horrible thing to live with. To be so down that death is the only option. So sad.

[Stevie Reid]

His manic energy and incredible comedy were obviously a product of his ongoing battle with his depression - therefore his whole career is a reflection of how hard he has tried. The fact that he has failed is unbelievably sad - until today he was proof that you could battle on and still have what seemed to be a fulfilling life and career; today that perception has gone, and I think that's why most people are so scunnered by this.

As for Brazil, sadly he just indicative of the belief that ignorance = controversy = speculation = listeners that is prevalent in the media these days. Lowest common denominator stuff, and best avoided.

[Stevie Reid]

Good article: -

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish?CMP=fb_gu

[Baader]

Absolute f******* knob.

Why are imbeciles like this allowed to air their ******ed views on air?

[McSwanky]

Brazil should "bloody well just man up" and start realising that this country's attitude towards such things is moving on. Without him.

[Weststandwanab]

Not defending Brazil by any means, but I am guessing that he hasn't had his life touched by depression.

However, I know from my own experiences that any time my own depression has led me down the path that Williams has just walked, the one thing that has stopped me has been the thought of what is left behind. And it's that feeling of "I can't be so selfish" that has ultimately been the barrier.

Brazil seems like a dinosaur, or may indeed be trolling, but it's a discussion worth having IMO.

He was connected to Celtic Boys Club that would depress me.

[Geo_1875]

There is a huge discussion/debate to be had around this subject, both depression and Brazil's lack of humanity. However, what has always struck me is that no matter how depressed we may be we have never reached the depths of despair that cause suicide. I find it difficult to imagine being so down that I take my own life and leave my loved ones in sorrow.

[Stranraer]

There is a huge discussion/debate to be had around this subject, both depression and Brazil's lack of humanity. However, what has always struck me is that no matter how depressed we may be we have never reached the depths of despair that cause suicide. I find it difficult to imagine being so down that I take my own life and leave my loved ones in sorrow.

Having been in that position, nothing matters as it should. I'm lucky enough to look back and thank myself for not doing it.

[lucky]

He's really let himself down badly on this

[Scottie]

He's really let himself down badly on this

:agree: The man is an embarrassment in all shape and form.

Lets hope he or someone he cares about never has to go through something like this. Absolutely disgusted in his attitude with these comments.

[TrinityHibs]

Good article: -

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish?CMP=fb_gu

That's an excellent article Stevie. Having just lost a good friend, who had a wife and three daughters, as a result of depression I must admit to being torn between selfishness on his part because of what he left behind and the knowledge that he had no control over the dark cloud that would come over him as a result of his illness. The problem is that we often cannot see mental health issues and do not appreciate the depths of despair that apparently "normal" people can experience.

I was truly saddened when I heard that Robin Williams had passed away as he has brought joy to so many and in my mind was a true comic genius. Alan Brazil should just be ignored as there was no thought given to what he was saying and his Robbie Williams comment was crass beyond belief

[Andy Bee]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

[CropleyWasGod]

TalkSport has now apologised for his remarks.

Stan Collymore has also strung him up.:wink:

[BH Hibs]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Wow.

[hibsbollah]

Even considering the large proportion of trite bull**** talked about depression from people who have had no experience of it, those are particularly poor comments from him.

[CropleyWasGod]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Have you any idea what it feels like to be in that place? RW was long past that point where he could have a rational thought to "seek help" as you put it.

I'd do yourself a favour and go and read the "Depression and Anxiety" thread on here. That might give you a bit more insight and, perhaps, empathy.

[Stranraer]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

What a thoughtless post. Have you been through it? Have you seen the pain it causes or the troubles many people have getting appropriate mental health services? You should be ashamed of yourself.

[AngusHibby]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Good ****ing grief, absolutely poisonous stuff to read.

[southfieldhibby]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.


If that is an honest post and your genuine thoughts, you have too much hatred in you and I'd be looking to speak to someone, professionally, to help you ease your anger.

[Scottie]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.



This must be one of the worst and most insensitive posts I have ever read on Hibs.net

Unbelievable

[hibsbollah]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Talking of trite bull****... :rolleyes:

Im not angry, I genuinely pity your opinion.

[Stevie Reid]

That's an excellent article Stevie. Having just lost a good friend, who had a wife and three daughters, as a result of depression I must admit to being torn between selfishness on his part because of what he left behind and the knowledge that he had no control over the dark cloud that would come over him as a result of his illness. The problem is that we often cannot see mental health issues and do not appreciate the depths of despair that apparently "normal" people can experience.

I was truly saddened when I heard that Robin Williams had passed away as he has brought joy to so many and in my mind was a true comic genius. Alan Brazil should just be ignored as there was no thought given to what he was saying and his Robbie Williams comment was crass beyond belief

It is indeed a very good article. I've been to some dark places myself, but similar to what CWG has stated, the thought of what such an act would do to my family has always been enough to keep things reigned in just enough - which is why I think people are so shocked/stunned/frightened by this.

I think both sufferers and non-sufferers would think that if you had such an incredible gift to entertain/bring happiness to millions of people the world over, it must somehow make your world somehow more tolerable/less bleak. The fact that it hasn't, and that Williams' illness moved beyond him the point of rationalisation that has stopped others doing the same, is truly terrifying.

[Pretty Boy]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

[CropleyWasGod]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

I hope that Stan Collymore pins this post up on Brazil's locker.

:top marks PB.

[Hibs Class]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.


Excellent post.

[Andy Bee]

Have you any idea what it feels like to be in that place? RW was long past that point where he could have a rational thought to "seek help" as you put it.

I'd do yourself a favour and go and read the "Depression and Anxiety" thread on here. That might give you a bit more insight and, perhaps, empathy.



Sorry Crops it's just the way I feel about the subject, you yourself admitted in this thread that you had been there and the thought of family brought you back so RW must have at some point dismissed his familys pain for his own escape. He had, as has everyone in life, a moral obligation to look after family and friends, he's disregarded that in the extreme

I have read the thread mentioned and that was part of the reason I posted, maybe someone trying to justify suicide may well think twice after reading posts like mine and not all the RIP rubbish. I have loads of empathy for anyone struggling with depression I certainly don't for anyone that takes their own life.

I lost my wee brother suddenly just over ten years ago, not suicide but painful none the less. Every day I think of him, every time I talk with my parents I still see it in their eyes so forgive me for not giving a flying one to someone that bestowed that pain on his own family by choice.

[AngusHibby]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

Great post. If there's one thing I've learnt today, it's that I am not nearly as alone as I thought I was

[Stevie Reid]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

Great post.

[Andy Bee]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.


As best I can, I do understand the illness and despite everything you've went through you're still here, you fight it, so the utmost respect to you, you, Crops, Andrew and everyone else on that thread are testament that suicide is never an option, you fight it best you can and keep fighting it, you surround yourself with friends, family and people who care, there can be no justification for taking your own life, non at all

[Hibbie_Cameron]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

:top marks:top marks

[s.a.m]

Sorry Crops it's just the way I feel about the subject, you yourself admitted in this thread that you had been there and the thought of family brought you back so RW must have at some point dismissed his familys pain for his own escape. He had, as has everyone in life, a moral obligation to look after family and friends, he's disregarded that in the extreme

I have read the thread mentioned and that was part of the reason I posted, maybe someone trying to justify suicide may well think twice after reading posts like mine and not all the RIP rubbish. I have loads of empathy for anyone struggling with depression I certainly don't for anyone that takes their own life.

I lost my wee brother suddenly just over ten years ago, not suicide but painful none the less. Every day I think of him, every time I talk with my parents I still see it in their eyes so forgive me for not giving a flying one to someone that bestowed that pain on his own family by choice.

I'm sure it is the way you feel. It suggests though that you don't know very much about the subject. The way you talk about his action seems to suggest you assume that his state of mind and his action to kill himself were rational. It's entirely likely that that wasn't the case. Perhaps you're confusing, as some still do, severe depression with self-pity, or the feelings of sadness/ feeling low that everyone exeriences, when this couldn't be further from the truth. It's not a lifestyle choice.

[AT8]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

Do yourself a favor and get educated on the subject of mental illness. If somebody died from a heart attack, would you be calling them selfish cowards because they have left a mourning family behind? Depression is an illness, a disease, which unless you suffer from it, can be difficult to understand. I am a sufferer, who six years ago committed suicide with an alcohol/pill combination, and by some miracle, the medics managed to bring me back (albeit that I was in a coma for 2 days). Looking back, I still find it hard to believe that I did this, but at the time, I was so helpless and could not see any way of turning things around. When I was taking the OD, I did feel extreme guilt, but at the same time, I felt I was out of options and no amount of talking or therapy could have changed my mind.

Six years on, and I'm grateful beyond words that I'm still here, but it still saddens me that there is so much ignorance displayed when discussing depression.

[BH Hibs]

Have you ever woken up in the morning and the thought of lifting your head off the pillow seems as acheivable as lifting a ton weight above your head? Ever felt like getting out of bed is about as possible as climbing Everest? Ever stood in a room of people you know and felt your heart thrash in your chest, your fingers and toes tingle, broke out in a cold sweat, felt hot and dizzy and like you are literally seconds from collapsing and dying? Ever felt so ****ing low that you feel utterly worthless? Ever felt those closest to you would be better without you and spent months or years justifying that opinion? Ever come to the conclusion that you have failed at everything you have done despite every piece of evidence to the contrary? Ever spent months isolating yourself from friends and loved ones because you are just so utterly devoid of feeling? Ever had to confess to your partner that you just want to die because you hate yourself, hate your life and hate being passed from Doctor to Doctor, being given potions and pills that make you feel like a zombie and still feeling no closer to a solution? Ever seen the hurt and incomprehension in their eyes when they try to understand that and then blame themselves?

Your views don't anger me, they make me sad. I really thought with the advancements in understanding of mental illness in recent years that attitudes like this were a thing of the past. It seems not.

100 per cent correct mate.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've been present at enough suicides to know that there is nothing more devastating for the loved ones left behind than a family member taking their own life. These events always left me angry and bitter towards what I saw as the perpetrator, I've now come to appreciate that there are no perpetrators in such events, just victims of a horrible disease.

I had a relative who died at 22 because of an eating disorder, it's like suicide only you're forced to watch it and the helpless feeling of not being able to do something about it is agonizing. To this day the whole family are devastated and continue to blame themselves and sometimes even each other. Only victims, nothing else.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish

[Geo_1875]

Sorry Crops it's just the way I feel about the subject, you yourself admitted in this thread that you had been there and the thought of family brought you back so RW must have at some point dismissed his familys pain for his own escape. He had, as has everyone in life, a moral obligation to look after family and friends, he's disregarded that in the extreme

I have read the thread mentioned and that was part of the reason I posted, maybe someone trying to justify suicide may well think twice after reading posts like mine and not all the RIP rubbish. I have loads of empathy for anyone struggling with depression I certainly don't for anyone that takes their own life.

I lost my wee brother suddenly just over ten years ago, not suicide but painful none the less. Every day I think of him, every time I talk with my parents I still see it in their eyes so forgive me for not giving a flying one to someone that bestowed that pain on his own family by choice.

Andy - CWG has been close but not reached the point of no return which depressive suicides pass. Many people attempt suicide and many receive the help that they want/need. But to actually hang yourself while alone rather than take some pills with the chance of being found is a far darker place than anybody currently posting on Hibs.net has been. NOBODY on here can say they have been in that position.

[#FromTheCapital]

Extremely ignorant comments from Brazil. I hope one day the world moves away from this viewpoint. Very easy to say suicide is a selfish act because of the devastation it leaves behind. But try and look at it with an open mind and understand that some people suffer with depression, it's a real illness that unfortunately causes many people to commit suicide - every minute of every day.

[Pretty Boy]

This thread has been playing on my mind a bit and I admit my initial comment yesterday was made through anger, although I still stand by much of it.

I think depression and anxiety as well as other mental health issues can only really be understood by those who have experienced it or been close to someone who has. They are illnesses where the physical symptoms are often subtle if one doesn't know what they are looking for. Someone diagnosed with an aggressive terminal cancer, as an example, will generally begin to show signs of illness quickly -whether as a result of treatment, weight loss, jaundice etc- someone with depression can to all intents and purposes look perfectly healthy. There are a myriad of illnesses where this is the case, depression, fibromyalgia, ME, IBS, PTSD, coeliac and so on.

I can understand why someone close to an individual who has taken their own life may feel they have been selfish. After all they have to pick up the pieces, try to go on with their life and will probably feel a degree of guilt. I think turning our own anger and confusion on to others, even if that person is no longer here, is a very natural human behaviour.

Equally though I find it hard to accept that someone unrelated to that person could call that person selfish or a coward. To be selfish and cowardly I would argue one has to be thinking rationally, someone in such a deep depression that they are prepared to take their own life has gone beyone rational thought. They will perhaps feel that, depsite the hurt they know they will leave behind, they are actually doing those who will mourn them a favour because of their deep seated insecurities about themselves. It's hard for those of us capable of rational thought to imagine thinking that. As for being cowards? I'm not sure someone who can go against thousands of years of evolutionary survival instinct can be labeled a coward. If you have a bath and try to hold your head under to drown yourself, the body and mind will not let you do it. Your natural survival instinct will force you to lift your head out to breathe. To overcome that strongest of instincts, presevation, must take unbelievable will.

Robin Williams, and countless others who have taken their own lives, did seek help. Time and time again. But for whatever reason he reached a point where he couldn't go on. Where, in his mind, death seemed preferable to living. Where all rational thought was lost to him. I have no idea what that place must be like but I imagine it is very dark and lonely. I wouldn't like to ever be in that place.

[Hibs Class]

This thread has been playing on my mind a bit and I admit my initial comment yesterday was made through anger, although I still stand by much of it.

I think depression and anxiety as well as other mental health issues can only really be understood by those who have experienced it or been close to someone who has. They are illnesses where the physical symptoms are often subtle if one doesn't know what they are looking for. Someone diagnosed with an aggressive terminal cancer, as an example, will generally begin to show signs of illness quickly -whether as a result of treatment, weight loss, jaundice etc- someone with depression can to all intents and purposes look perfectly healthy. There are a myriad of illnesses where this is the case, depression, fibromyalgia, ME, IBS, PTSD, coeliac and so on.

I can understand why someone close to an individual who has taken their own life may feel they have been selfish. After all they have to pick up the pieces, try to go on with their life and will probably feel a degree of guilt. I think turning our own anger and confusion on to others, even if that person is no longer here, is a very natural human behaviour.

Equally though I find it hard to accept that someone unrelated to that person could call that person selfish or a coward. To be selfish and cowardly I would argue one has to be thinking rationally, someone in such a deep depression that they are prepared to take their own life has gone beyone rational thought. They will perhaps feel that, depsite the hurt they know they will leave behind, they are actually doing those who will mourn them a favour because of their deep seated insecurities about themselves. It's hard for those of us capable of rational thought to imagine thinking that. As for being cowards? I'm not sure someone who can go against thousands of years of evolutionary survival instinct can be labeled a coward. If you have a bath and try to hold your head under to drown yourself, the body and mind will not let you do it. Your natural survival instinct will force you to lift your head out to breathe. To overcome that strongest of instincts, presevation, must take unbelievable will.

Robin Williams, and countless others who have taken their own lives, did seek help. Time and time again. But for whatever reason he reached a point where he couldn't go on. Where, in his mind, death seemed preferable to living. Where all rational thought was lost to him. I have no idea what that place must be like but I imagine it is very dark and lonely. I wouldn't like to ever be in that place.

Again, I agree with your post, and I've also been thinking about it a lot over the last day. I'm fortunate enough to have never suffered from depression, and I think that people in that position fall into two broad groups: those who think they know what depression must be like and those who have sufficient awareness to realise that they have no real idea. It's only the first group who make comments such as cowards, diabolical, man-up etc., and their lack of awareness means that they have no idea of how inaccurate, crass and potentially damaging their comments are.

[Andy Bee]

This thread has been playing on my mind a bit and I admit my initial comment yesterday was made through anger, although I still stand by much of it.

I think depression and anxiety as well as other mental health issues can only really be understood by those who have experienced it or been close to someone who has. They are illnesses where the physical symptoms are often subtle if one doesn't know what they are looking for. Someone diagnosed with an aggressive terminal cancer, as an example, will generally begin to show signs of illness quickly -whether as a result of treatment, weight loss, jaundice etc- someone with depression can to all intents and purposes look perfectly healthy. There are a myriad of illnesses where this is the case, depression, fibromyalgia, ME, IBS, PTSD, coeliac and so on.

I can understand why someone close to an individual who has taken their own life may feel they have been selfish. After all they have to pick up the pieces, try to go on with their life and will probably feel a degree of guilt. I think turning our own anger and confusion on to others, even if that person is no longer here, is a very natural human behaviour.

Equally though I find it hard to accept that someone unrelated to that person could call that person selfish or a coward. To be selfish and cowardly I would argue one has to be thinking rationally, someone in such a deep depression that they are prepared to take their own life has gone beyone rational thought. They will perhaps feel that, depsite the hurt they know they will leave behind, they are actually doing those who will mourn them a favour because of their deep seated insecurities about themselves. It's hard for those of us capable of rational thought to imagine thinking that. As for being cowards? I'm not sure someone who can go against thousands of years of evolutionary survival instinct can be labeled a coward. If you have a bath and try to hold your head under to drown yourself, the body and mind will not let you do it. Your natural survival instinct will force you to lift your head out to breathe. To overcome that strongest of instincts, presevation, must take unbelievable will.

Robin Williams, and countless others who have taken their own lives, did seek help. Time and time again. But for whatever reason he reached a point where he couldn't go on. Where, in his mind, death seemed preferable to living. Where all rational thought was lost to him. I have no idea what that place must be like but I imagine it is very dark and lonely. I wouldn't like to ever be in that place.



On reading my first post again I agree it is insensitive but the same as you was written in anger, anger because someone can do that with total disregard to the carnage they leave behind for whatever the reasons, for that I apologise.

PB have you ever lost anyone close to you, I mean really close? If you have you'll understand my motivation. He has three kids and a wife who will never be the same. I refuse to believe that he never had any choice, at some point he must have thought about the consequences and as you say decided death was preferable. I understand he was in a dark place I truly do and I'm sincerely sorry if I'm causing offence to anyone that is suffering or has suffered from depression it really is not my intention I'm in no way trying to belittle the illness itself honestly why would I but I refuse to walk on eggshells when it comes to the subject of suicide. In some ways this isn't about the road that gets you to the point of taking your own life it's the act of suicide itself that repulses me, he had an obligation to protect his family and he disregarded that to suit his own needs, he made the decision to take his own life because he thought it would be easier, he put himself before others no matter what state of mind he was in, if that's not the definition of a selfish act I don't know what is, the fact it was depression, financial problems or drink/drugs that brought him to this shouldn't matter, there is no justification for suicide in my book.

[CropleyWasGod]

On reading my first post again I agree it is insensitive but the same as you was written in anger, anger because someone can do that with total disregard to the carnage they leave behind for whatever the reasons, for that I apologise.

PB have you ever lost anyone close to you, I mean really close? If you have you'll understand my motivation. He has three kids and a wife who will never be the same. I refuse to believe that he never had any choice, at some point he must have thought about the consequences and as you say decided death was preferable. I understand he was in a dark place I truly do and I'm sincerely sorry if I'm causing offence to anyone that is suffering or has suffered from depression it really is not my intention I'm in no way trying to belittle the illness itself honestly why would I but I refuse to walk on eggshells when it comes to the subject of suicide. In some ways this isn't about the road that gets you to the point of taking your own life it's the act of suicide itself that repulses me, he had an obligation to protect his family and he disregarded that to suit his own needs, he made the decision to take his own life because he thought it would be easier, he put himself before others no matter what state of mind he was in, if that's not the definition of a selfish act I don't know what is, the fact it was depression, financial problems or drink/drugs that brought him to this shouldn't matter, there is no justification for suicide in my book.

How would you feel if it was your child who chose that route?

You might want to read this:-

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish?CMP=fb_gu

[easty]

On reading my first post again I agree it is insensitive but the same as you was written in anger, anger because someone can do that with total disregard to the carnage they leave behind for whatever the reasons, for that I apologise.

PB have you ever lost anyone close to you, I mean really close? If you have you'll understand my motivation. He has three kids and a wife who will never be the same. I refuse to believe that he never had any choice, at some point he must have thought about the consequences and as you say decided death was preferable. I understand he was in a dark place I truly do and I'm sincerely sorry if I'm causing offence to anyone that is suffering or has suffered from depression it really is not my intention I'm in no way trying to belittle the illness itself honestly why would I but I refuse to walk on eggshells when it comes to the subject of suicide. In some ways this isn't about the road that gets you to the point of taking your own life it's the act of suicide itself that repulses me, he had an obligation to protect his family and he disregarded that to suit his own needs, he made the decision to take his own life because he thought it would be easier, he put himself before others no matter what state of mind he was in, if that's not the definition of a selfish act I don't know what is, the fact it was depression, financial problems or drink/drugs that brought him to this shouldn't matter, there is no justification for suicide in my book.

I'm with you on this one. Someone close to me attempted suicide, knowing full well that whether it was a successful attempt or not I'd be the one who found them. Fortunately it was an unsuccessful attempt, they got help and the person is a hell of a lot better now. It was a horrible thing to see though, I feel terrible that the person felt that bad that they thought they had no other option, but I still feel it was incredibly selfish.

[Just Alf]

This starting to feel like a thread where everyone is right to an extent.

I'll say one thing though.... while a particular action may "look" selfish from the outside looking in, when you're on the inside looking out, your brain is very clearly telling you that you're doing the right thing and it's the best for everyone, especially the ones you love....

of course it's not right, but it's an illness that makes you think that way.... it's that reason why i really think it's unfair to call someone selfish in these situations, they genuinely believe they are being the complete opposite and just cannot mentally work through all the intricacies/what if's etc that we all normally do automatically throughout our daily life , that doest stop it looking selfish though.

I hope that makes sense?

[Pretty Boy]

On reading my first post again I agree it is insensitive but the same as you was written in anger, anger because someone can do that with total disregard to the carnage they leave behind for whatever the reasons, for that I apologise.

PB have you ever lost anyone close to you, I mean really close? If you have you'll understand my motivation. He has three kids and a wife who will never be the same. I refuse to believe that he never had any choice, at some point he must have thought about the consequences and as you say decided death was preferable. I understand he was in a dark place I truly do and I'm sincerely sorry if I'm causing offence to anyone that is suffering or has suffered from depression it really is not my intention I'm in no way trying to belittle the illness itself honestly why would I but I refuse to walk on eggshells when it comes to the subject of suicide. In some ways this isn't about the road that gets you to the point of taking your own life it's the act of suicide itself that repulses me, he had an obligation to protect his family and he disregarded that to suit his own needs, he made the decision to take his own life because he thought it would be easier, he put himself before others no matter what state of mind he was in, if that's not the definition of a selfish act I don't know what is, the fact it was depression, financial problems or drink/drugs that brought him to this shouldn't matter, there is no justification for suicide in my book.

I have lost people very close to me, 2 grandparents, my closest friend (we had been friends from about 3 year old up until his death at 20) who dies suddenly of an undiagnosed medical conditon and a cousin who was 33 who dies as a result of alcoholism.

The death of my friend played a hige role in my own issues with depression and anxiety, most notably health anxiety. When it came to my cousin my initial reaction was anger and that persisted for a long time. He left a hell of a mess behind, a child, a partner and bereaved parents as well as an extended family all because, as I saw it at the time, he didn't want to stop drinking, or not enough at any rate.

I think when you talk about suicide and such you are to some extent arguing about at what point mental illness makes concepts such as choice and free will a fanciful notion.

Anyway I think we are coming at this from such disparate points that agreement seems unlikely so probably best we agree to disagree. I respect everyones right to an opinion and you're as entitled to yours as I am to mine.

[HappyAsHellas]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

If I'm ever feeling a bit down, can I have you as my psycho analysist please? Oh no, wait a minute.........

[#FromTheCapital]

This starting to feel like a thread where everyone is right to an extent.

I'll say one thing though.... while a particular action may "look" selfish from the outside looking in, when you're on the inside looking out, your brain is very clearly telling you that you're doing the right thing and it's the best for everyone, especially the ones you love....

of course it's not right, but it's an illness that makes you think that way.... it's that reason why i really think it's unfair to call someone selfish in these situations, they genuinely believe they are being the complete opposite and just cannot mentally work through all the intricacies/what if's etc that we all normally do automatically throughout our daily life , that doest stop it looking selfish though.

I hope that makes sense?

Spot on.

[lyonhibs]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

"Plain and simple" aye?? What an incredible statement. Oh, to lead a life that is so very black and white and clear cut as yours presumably has been.

[hibsbollah]

This starting to feel like a thread where everyone is right to an extent.



Not to me it doesn't. The mendacious, narrowminded and just plain irrational belief that those driven to suicide are somehow 'selfish' needs challenged wherever it rears its ugly head. Its NOT 'right' to hold this belief, it's plain wrong.

[Andy Bee]

How would you feel if it was your child who chose that route?

You might want to read this:-

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-suicide-and-depression-are-not-selfish?CMP=fb_gu


I think you know the answer to that question CWG but just because it was someone close to me wouldn't change the fact that the act in itself is selfish.

I've read the article and I'd hope you give me more credit than thinking depression is "being in a bit of a funk". The article suggests that anyone that thinks suicide is selfish simply doesn't understand depression and is ignorant to the illness is not correct, it isn't as simple as that. Let's get one thing straight here if I haven't already, I have compassion for anyone fighting this illness, I'll help anyone in any way I can and I certainly will not shun anyone that tries to talk to me about it thinking they're "just in a bit of a funk".

This argument comes down to whether anyone with depression, or not, that takes their own life has a choice. I refuse to believe that there's a level of depression that takes that choice totally away and RW had reached that. It's been stated here that thousands of sufferers have taken their own lives because of the illness, I'd argue that there's millions that haven't despite the illness, you yourself thankfully being one of them for the very reasons that anger me about RWs suicide.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think you know the answer to that question CWG but just because it was someone close to me wouldn't change the fact that the act in itself is selfish.

I've read the article and I'd hope you give me more credit than thinking depression is "being in a bit of a funk". The article suggests that anyone that thinks suicide is selfish simply doesn't understand depression and is ignorant to the illness is not correct, it isn't as simple as that. Let's get one thing straight here if I haven't already, I have compassion for anyone fighting this illness, I'll help anyone in any way I can and I certainly will not shun anyone that tries to talk to me about it thinking they're "just in a bit of a funk".

This argument comes down to whether anyone with depression, or not, that takes their own life has a choice. I refuse to believe that there's a level of depression that takes that choice totally away and RW had reached that. It's been stated here that thousands of sufferers have taken their own lives because of the illness, I'd argue that there's millions that haven't despite the illness, you yourself thankfully being one of them for the very reasons that anger me about RWs suicide.

... and that, there, is our disagreement in a nutshell.

I believe that there is. You don't.

Probably not much more to be said. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Personally I agree with the guy and his point about it being a selfish act, if you're that depressed then seek help, talk to someone, at worse find a way to live with it don't go stringing yourself up from the nearest lampost. His daughter now has the rest of her life blaming herself, thinking she could of done more, she'll wake up every morning and ten seconds later the thoughts will return. She now has the life sentence and her own dad served it, he's taken a piece of her that will never return. I've lost all respect for Williams now, he's a selfish coward plain and simple.

If only it was that simple.

My personal view is that we should respect the individuals right, to decide what terms they will live their life on. That includes giving them the right, and respect, to allow them to end their life when they want.

We wouldn't expect an animal to live in pain, so why should we expect a human being to live in pain. Sometimes there comes a point when you know things wont get any better, and you get tired of fighting. It's not cowardice to give in, it's extremely brave.

What is sometimes hard for people to understand is the extreme pain that mental illness inflicts on people. If you don't believe that depression can disable a person to that degree, then you should maybe listen to people's stories.

Theres another thread on that topic, but I can assure you that depression is such a severe illness that it can kill the sufferer. Not by suicide, but by slowing their body down to the extent that they go into a catatonic state, and die.

One of the real ******* things depression does is that it makes it very hard for the sufferer to make rational decisions, and they believe that their death would be the best thing for everybody. Tragic for those around, those that try to help them, like nurses, and tragic for them.

Somebody I know lost a friend recently, after she took her own life. She wrote on the funeral wreath " sorry you had to leave us". She didn't say "why did you do that you selfish b", because despite the hole her friends death left in everyone's life, she respected her right to live life on her terms.

Its very hard for those left behind. The selfish thing is to hang onto somebody when they don't want to be there.

In time Robin Williams daughter might learn to accept how brave her dad was to keep going for 62 years.

Anybody with fears about suicide, might benefit from this website, and the excellent phone line. It is manned by Registered Mental Nurses, with lots of experience, they won't judge, and it could save a life.

They are also good at helping those who live in the aftermath of a suicide.

http://www.breathingspacescotland.co.uk/bspace/252.html?gclid=CLO1lJq9l8ACFUjlwgodIYYAtg

Anybody interested in finding out more about the impact of mental illness on people's lives, might find SAMH a good starting point.

http://www.samh.org.uk/

Its better to find out the facts than to live in fear.

Also, CRUSE can help with issues around bereavement.


http://www.crusescotland.org.uk/

[Stranraer]

If only it was that simple.

My personal view is that we should respect the individuals right, to decide what terms they will live their life on. That includes giving them the right, and respect, to allow them to end their life when they want.

We wouldn't expect an animal to live in pain, so why should we expect a human being to live in pain. Sometimes there comes a point when you know things wont get any better, and you get tired of fighting. It's not cowardice to give in, it's extremely brave.

What is sometimes hard for people to understand is the extreme pain that mental illness inflicts on people. If you don't believe that depression can disable a person to that degree, then you should maybe listen to people's stories.

Theres another thread on that topic, but I can assure you that depression is such a severe illness that it can kill the sufferer. Not by suicide, but by slowing their body down to the extent that they go into a catatonic state, and die.

One of the real ******* things depression does is that it makes it very hard for the sufferer to make rational decisions, and they believe that their death would be the best thing for everybody. Tragic for those around, those that try to help them, like nurses, and tragic for them.

Somebody I know lost a friend recently, after she took her own life. She wrote on the funeral wreath " sorry you had to leave us". She didn't say "why did you do that you selfish b", because despite the hole her friends death left in everyone's life, she respected her right to live life on her terms.

Its very hard for those left behind. The selfish thing is to hang onto somebody when they don't want to be there.

In time Robin Williams daughter might learn to accept how brave her dad was to keep going for 62 years.

Anybody with fears about suicide, might benefit from this website, and the excellent phone line. It is manned by Registered Mental Nurses, with lots of experience, they won't judge, and it could save a life.

They are also good at helping those who live in the aftermath of a suicide.

http://www.breathingspacescotland.co.uk/bspace/252.html?gclid=CLO1lJq9l8ACFUjlwgodIYYAtg

Anybody interested in finding out more about the impact of mental illness on people's lives, might find SAMH a good starting point.

http://www.samh.org.uk/

Its better to find out the facts than to live in fear.

Also, CRUSE can help with issues around bereavement.


http://www.crusescotland.org.uk/

Personally I find Breathing Space to be pretty lacklustre. That isn't to say some people find it helpful but the problem with these phone lines is the fact that they can't (or won't?) give out advice.

Time and time again I have used NHS24 - quite often I get through to a mental health nurse and when I don't the NHS nurses themselves are nearly always greatly helpful. The same cannot be said for GP's in my experience.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Personally I find Breathing Space to be pretty lacklustre. That isn't to say some people find it helpful but the problem with these phone lines is the fact that they can't (or won't?) give out advice.

Time and time again I have used NHS24 - quite often I get through to a mental health nurse and when I don't the NHS nurses themselves are nearly always greatly helpful. The same cannot be said for GP's in my experience.

Time and time again?

[Stranraer]

Time and time again?

Yeah I still struggle with my mental health on a daily basis... I use NHS24 quite a lot, I have no CPN or Psychiatrist anymore

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yeah I still struggle with my mental health on a daily basis... I use NHS24 quite a lot, I have no CPN or Psychiatrist anymore

Ok then, but Breathing Space is a very useful resource for people in crisis. I'm sure you wouldn't want to put people off phoning them, because you've had a bad experience.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.

[Stranraer]

Ok then, but Breathing Space is a very useful resource for people in crisis. I'm sure you wouldn't want to put people off phoning them, because you've had a bad experience.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.

I would rather people turned to professionals who give out advice but each their own.

[CropleyWasGod]

I would rather people turned to professionals who give out advice but each their own.

Peer support is also very important in mental health issues.

In my experience, the ability of GP's to give out appropriate advice is, at best, patchy.

[lord bunberry]

Not to me it doesn't. The mendacious, narrowminded and just plain irrational belief that those driven to suicide are somehow 'selfish' needs challenged wherever it rears its ugly head. Its NOT 'right' to hold this belief, it's plain wrong.

I wouldn't say it's an irrational belief, I would say its a belief born out of ignorance to what mental health can do to people. Until fairly recently I would have called someone who committed suicide a coward who took the easy way out. After experiencing my own mental health issues I now realise how ridiculous that view is and I am ashamed of some of the things I've said on the subject in the past.
Thankfully the stigma attached to mental health has gone and more people feel more comfortable about discussing it, me included.

[givescotlandfreedom]

It's bad enough the rubbish he spouts about football but now he's trying to be a moral authority on mental health?

[Stranraer]

Peer support is also very important in mental health issues.

In my experience, the ability of GP's to give out appropriate advice is, at best, patchy.

Fair enough. If some people find having someone listening is enough for them then great but I can rarely talk away for 20 minutes when I'm in a bad way.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Fair enough. If some people find having someone listening is enough for them then great but I can rarely talk away for 20 minutes when I'm in a bad way.

I think this isn't the right place to be looking for answers to individual questions. Stick to the professionals.

Sorry to be blunt, but somebody has to tell you. The thread isn't about you.

[Stranraer]

I think this isn't the right place to be looking for answers to individual questions. Stick to the professionals.

Sorry to be blunt, but somebody has to tell you. The thread isn't about you.

I wasn't looking for answers thank you.

[Speedy]

Not to me it doesn't. The mendacious, narrowminded and just plain irrational belief that those driven to suicide are somehow 'selfish' needs challenged wherever it rears its ugly head. Its NOT 'right' to hold this belief, it's plain wrong.

Challenge that belief if you like but it's not 'plain' anything.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it's not irrational for people to think it's selfish.

[hibsbollah]

Challenge that belief if you like but it's not 'plain' anything.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it's not irrational for people to think it's selfish.

Yes it is. People who are severely depressed are often incapable of making logical decisions. For example, a standard pattern of thought is ' I am worthless and a drain on my family, so I will end it all and make life easier for them', the very antithesis of selfishness. If you assume selfishness as a motivation you ignore the inability of depressed people to think in the same way as others. Hence, its irrational. (Unless of course you reject the whole science of psychology, as many people apparently do).

[Speedy]

Yes it is. People who are severely depressed are often incapable of making logical decisions. For example, a standard pattern of thought is ' I am worthless and a drain on my family, so I will end it all and make life easier for them', the very antithesis of selfishness. If you assume selfishness as a motivation you ignore the inability of depressed people to think in the same way as others. Hence, its irrational. (Unless of course you reject the whole science of psychology, as many people apparently do).

Not everyone is incapable of making logical decisions, and not everyone will have the thought process you mention.

Edit: There will be cases where it is and cases where it isn't. I don't think it's as simple as labelling all cases together.

[hibsbollah]

Not everyone is incapable of making logical decisions, and not everyone will have the thought process you mention.

Edit: There will be cases where it is and cases where it isn't. I don't think it's as simple as labelling all cases together.

Exactly, you're making the case very well. And the idiots labelling him 'selfish' have no idea what 'thought processes' or severity of condition Williams was dealing with. Only the medical professionals involved. Hence, calling him selfish without this knowledge is irrational.

[Andy Bee]

Erm "idiots" do you really need to dish out the little abusive personal jibes just because they don't conform to your agenda? If so should you really be involved in this thread? I've laid out why I think it's selfish without any abuse. I'm being as honest as I can and have said on numerous occasions that I'm not trying to belittle the illness nor do I think that the majority of posters that agree with me are either. I suggest you wind your neck in or find an audience elsewhere.

[Hibbyradge]

I wish you could all see the programme I'm watching in Montreal.

It's about suicide.

I just learned that someone tries to commit suicide every 3 seconds and this has been the case for time immemorial.

Lots and lots and lots of selfish, mentally ill people.

[hibsbollah]

Erm "idiots" do you really need to dish out the little abusive personal jibes just because they don't conform to your agenda? If so should you really be involved in this thread? I've laid out why I think it's selfish without any abuse. I'm being as honest as I can and have said on numerous occasions that I'm not trying to belittle the illness nor do I think that the majority of posters that agree with me are either. I suggest you wind your neck in or find an audience elsewhere.

I was really referring to Brazil and some of the US shock jocks' pontifications more than yourself. And although I don't think your views do you any credit, sorry if you were offended.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Erm "idiots" do you really need to dish out the little abusive personal jibes just because they don't conform to your agenda? If so should you really be involved in this thread? I've laid out why I think it's selfish without any abuse. I'm being as honest as I can and have said on numerous occasions that I'm not trying to belittle the illness nor do I think that the majority of posters that agree with me are either. I suggest you wind your neck in or find an audience elsewhere.

Have you changed your thinking in any way, after reading what others have to say? This isn't an insult, but have you considered that your views on suicide are selfish?

I ask that because you admit that events in your life have had a big bearing on how you perceive suicide. Is it possible your thinking has been shaped by grief?

Grief impacts on thought processes too, and its possible you might have selfish reasons for hanging onto your beliefs, that mean you aren't prepared to consider alternatives.

Please don't take this as getting at you. I just thought it is something worth considering.

[Hibrandenburg]

Have you changed your thinking in any way, after reading what others have to say? This isn't an insult, but have you considered that your views on suicide are selfish?

I ask that because you admit that events in your life have had a big bearing on how you perceive suicide. Is it possible your thinking has been shaped by grief?

Grief impacts on thought processes too, and its possible you might have selfish reasons for hanging onto your beliefs, that mean you aren't prepared to consider alternatives.

Please don't take this as getting at you. I just thought it is something worth considering.

I know what you're getting at but to suggest someone has different views due to a possible deep underlying psychological issue is stretching it a bit.

Isn't all that we believe born from past experiences and all our opinions based on that?

[Phil D. Rolls]

I know what you're getting at but to suggest someone has different views due to a possible deep underlying psychological issue is stretching it a bit.

Isn't all that we believe born from past experiences and all our opinions based on that?

Grief is an experience, it's not a psychological issue.

Understanding why we think the way we do might help us understand why others think differently. If we understand why they think differently, we might not be so hurt or frustrated by their beliefs.

[Hibrandenburg]

Grief is an experience, it's not a psychological issue.

Understanding why we think the way we do might help us understand iwhy others think differently. If we understand why they think differently, we might not be so hurt or frustrated by their beliefs.

Amen! And if both sides in this discussion could adhere to that then maybe the venom could be extracted. Anyone gifted with empathy doesn't have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to understand them.

[Sylar]

I recall this discussion arising in here and found this TED talk particularly poignant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QoyTmeAYw

[hibsbollah]

I recall this discussion arising in here and found this TED talk particularly poignant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QoyTmeAYw

That was just incredibly moving.

[CyberSauzee]

I'm sure many of you will remember this long tweet from nearly 3 years ago.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ecoqm1

It's very poignant realising what happened to Gary Speed 24 hours later.

An insight into what it means to someone who suffers from mental illness:


That's the point when the practicality sets in,and not a nice one(and incredible to think when you finally get well).

Suicidal thoughts.


Thankfully i've not got to that part yet,and in my last 10 years only once or twice has this practical reality entered my head,and practicality its is,unpalatable the thought may be to many.

Why a practicality? Well,if your mind is empty,your brain ceases to function,your body is pinned to the bed,the future is a dark room,with no light,and this is your reality,it takes a massive leap of faith to know that this time next week,life could be running again,smiling,my world big and my brain back as it should be.So what do some do? They don't take the leap of faith,they address a practical problem with a practical solution to them,and that is taking their own life.And sadly,too many take that route out of this hell.